MacNewsWorld presents a rumble in the Silicon Jungle — May 7th through May 14th — a six-round Mac Death Match in which Mac Observer editor-in-chief Bryan Chaffin and the always-controversial industry analyst Rob Enderle square off on today’s key Mac issues.
Mac Death Match, Round One: Chaffin vs. Enderle
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Eugenia Loli
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ROB ENDERLE said when starting the discussion:
When Steve Jobs made his own choice, at NeXT, he chose Intel,…Jobs certainly could have used Motorola or IBM back at NeXT, but he apparently realized that the market simply would not accept a new product that different. NeXT was still too different and didn’t get off the ground, even though a lot of us lusted after NeXT machines.
the fact is NeXT used M680x0 processors. Not a good way to start a discussion, IMHO.
Though when NeXT became just an OS it was ported to x86.
“the OS kernel comes from FreeBSD”
I was under the impression that it was a modified MACH-kernel?
Anyways, I consider these articles as nothing less than invitation to useless OS-wars, and BTW, who cares about Enderle anyway? He lost whatever credibility he eventually had a long time ago..
Aye, it is a hybrid Mach kernel. It has some technology ported from FreeBSD to it. kqueue API for instance.
I think he is referring to the userland tools, which are mainly a combination of freebsd/netbsd tools.
He is doing awfully well for someone who doesn’t really know a whole lot.
I’d probably go so far as to say you can quite happily disregard just about every statement this guy makes.
It’s not often you get to read such beautiful articles. He has clearly done no research at all.
Agreed.. Enderle only seems to know what he was told by his backers press releases.. No real journalism ever goes into his articles.
Enderle didn´t even mention his powerbook killing Ferrari-Laptop.
“six-round Mac Death Match”
Will this be in a metal cage?
Seriously, what is this suppose to prove?
Rob Enderle actually made sense in some parts considering we know what side he is on – to the exclusion of all logic and reasoning. However, the very fact that Apple does not make everything itself means that they are not going to die any time soon.
It is accepted with AIX (Advanced Interactive eXecutive, IBM’s proprietary UNIX OS) but only in very small quantities and only in another declining market, the RISC workstation market, which has been bleeding share (look at Sun) to Intel, Windows and Linux for some time.
IBM has sold quite a few Power boxes, most of the running critical functions for peoplem so I would hardly say that it is declining.
Looking ahead Apple has two major problems on the horizon. Microsoft’s “Longhorn” release, like Windows 95 in its day, is slated to close the gap dramatically.
Nice to know that after countless billions spent, Microsoft is still closing the gap to Apple.
Meanwhile, Linux itself, where firms like Novell and HP are leading a massive effort to build a Mac-like OS, has similar potential. Apple may not be the target of either effort, but, in what is likely to be the competition of the decade, Apple simply may be collateral damage in a market choosing between two platforms, neither of which is the Mac OS.
Possibly, but Apple still puts together a great package that could even use quite a bit more of Linux and open source technology. In open source land, the platform doesn’t actually matter very much which probably worries Rob Enderle quite a bit. Apple wouldn’t necessarily sell in huge numbers, but they would be an attractive option for developers to target and for many users again. Even taking all of this into account, they are still far from dead, but they need to do something that shifts more mind share into their favour soon.
Apple’s window to raise itself above one of these two competing platforms is closing rapidly.
Apple isn’t really in competition with Linux. You can use a great deal of open source software and technology on a Mac, and this can only help Apple. It is also a reason why Sun should not be affected, but they’ve gone on a trip the don’t need to make. This, however, is a huge problem for Microsoft.
And — let’s be clear — what both Linux and Windows have in common is x86 at the core.
Confirmed. Rob Enderle wants x86 to be the only platform out there, no doubt for many sinister reasons.
IBM is trying to push back, but IBM’s own internal divisions are tied tightly to Intel. IBM Microelectronics is actually building AMD and VIA parts, making it increasingly difficult for them to justify a non-x86 effort. The division used a unique x86-based processor in its Xbox victory. This blend of chip technologies IBM owns and has licensed will add another variant to the mix and make the non-x86 products even harder to justify because of the massive cost pressures on that Microsoft deal.
LOL. Nice try Rob. The Power PC, or anything non-x86, is not going by the way side any time soon – IBM are selling quite a few Power PC servers, and quite a few Macs still get sold.
In other words, even IBM may have trouble sustaining PowerPC two to three years from now in its current form. Clearly Motorola is all but out of this market for similar reasons. With SPARC and Alpha in solid decline, virtually every x86 technology looks more attractive than PowerPC long term.
IBM are committed to the Power PC, especially for higher-end servers, so no – the end is not nigh for the Power PC. It is also important for IBM to have an architecture that they control – they will never exclusively be tied to Intel, AMD or x86. Apple is still a good customer for IBM.
As Popular Mechanics recently demonstrated in its April 2004 issue, benchmarks accepted on the x86 platform don’t run on the PowerPC platform without significant modifications which made it look like Apple was cheating.
Yer, and the point of this is? You could say that Power PC benchmarks don’t run on x86 platforms. Yet another meaningless Enderle comment with no point.
In fact, Popular Mechanics basically said Apple was cheating, indicating there may be no performance advantage with the PowerPC today.
OK. This basically means that the Power PC is a very good platform, but Enderle is rubbishing it by rubbishing the benchmarks, and saying that because we can’t compare then the Power PC is probably inferior. Nice bit of Enderle logic at work there.
if third parties like Maximum PC and Popular Mechanics prove it underperforms x86;
There is no proof of this at all. Rob Enderle has just admitted that above.
and if the platform is due to be eclipsed by x86 in all related markets, then Apple has no choice but to make the move.
Goodness me Rob! If the x86 platform hasn’t eclipsed Power by now in all markets then it never will.
MHz for MHz, the G5 stomps on Intel’s processors, although comparisons to AMD are far closer.
Yep. Intel’s processors are pants.
Moreover, the PowerPC line, including the G5, uses less power and puts out less heat than Intel’s processors, making them ideal for products like the Xserve and the PowerBook line.
Damn right. A Pentium 4 consumes between 90 – 115 watts of electricity – at idle! Give me a Power PC or an AMD/Duron/Athlon any day. The higher-end Durons are very underrated as a processor.
One of the things that sets the Mac platform above the Wintel platform is that things “just work.”
That’s why you buy a Mac. No hunting around for wireless cards – you know what you’ve got, and in many cases you can get Linux to run on it better than a PC for that reason.
Apple may be in trouble in some respects, and they need to sort a better development package for the Mac, but they are not dying. Rob Enderle has alterior motives here by bringing the Power PC into play rather than talking about Apple.
When you think about it, the majority audience of Enderle will obviously hold him in high regard. It is no wonder he has supposedly ‘predicted’ the downfall of Netscape and Apple, all he will have had to do is spread some misinformation / FUD and watch the almost stock-market-like kneejerk reaction. That probably wouldn’t have been all that hard considering he landed himself numerous columns in various technical magazines.
Why people like this are allowed to do what they do without any kind of resistance from types who actually _know_ something is beyond me.
I bet he sleeps like a baby at night.
IBM is trying to push back, but IBM’s own internal divisions are tied tightly to Intel. IBM Microelectronics is actually building AMD and VIA parts, making it increasingly difficult for them to justify a non-x86 effort.
Just becuase IBM’s foundry also fabs chips for AMD and VIA as customers (who pay IBM money for the service), it makes it difficult to justify the PowerPC effort.
What is this guy smoking?
The division used a unique x86-based processor in its Xbox victory.
Which division of IBM made an x86 chip for the xbox? I thought xbox2 used powerpc chips.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=15549
“I was under the impression that it was a modified MACH-kernel?”
Darwin is a Mach 3.0 microkernel with a 4.4BSD-Lite layer with elements of (in order of presence) OpenBSD, FreeBSD and NetBSD. You can read this with a Terminal command that, at this moment, I don’t remember. 🙂
“IBM seems committed to increasing the MHz speed of the G5, something long gone at Motorola”
commitment is about all they have shown…certainly not any results.
that is a bit much, considering that at the end of June 2003 at WWDC Steve Jobs said on stage we would see a 3GHZ g5 within 12 months. he has about 40 days to produce it.
as big a deal as that is, the real deal is that since the g5 towers were introduced, we have not seen one additional Mhz added to their speed.
Nor of course has there been a price drop on the 2ghz model.
10 months into the g5 line’s history and i would say IBM is par for the course right along with Motorola’s recent history with the g4.
meanwhile on the x86 side we have seen a continuation of the battle between intel and amd that gives us better pricing and a constant surge in power. since the g5 shipped, x86 has seen a fairly substantial speed increase and corresponding price drop that is the historical norm.
he also said this funny bit:
“Intel has had to emasculate its mobile line of processors to reduce heat and power consumption. In contrast, Apple uses normal G4 processors in its portable line. Certainly Intel’s new Centrino line is an improvement in that company’s mobile offerings, but I’ll take a real G4 over a Centrino any day”
last time i checked the top end centrinos outperformed the top end g4 laptops in benchmark tests and they in many cases have double the battery life.
the centrino is available in laptops down to half the weight of the g4 laptops as well.
the centrino with its tight integration with wireless, the chipset, and the motherboard and the use of expanded cache is a winner for intel.
he also failed to mention that if you want to, you can get all the top end x86 cpus in laptops as well if power consumption is not an issue for your mobile use (desktop replacement).
with x86 you have choices.
commitment is about all they have shown…certainly not any results.
I think the results speak for themselves; hence the VA Tech Super Computer!
that is a bit much, considering that at the end of June 2003 at WWDC Steve Jobs said on stage we would see a 3GHZ g5 within 12 months. he has about 40 days to produce it.
It’s not June yet, so you’re flapping dead air into the wind.
as big a deal as that is, the real deal is that since the g5 towers were introduced, we have not seen one additional Mhz added to their speed.
We also have not seen much increase from Intel and AMD as the year before. Everyone is certainly having issues ramping up the clockspeed these days.
10 months into the g5 line’s history and i would say IBM is par for the course right along with Motorola’s recent history with the g4.
Nah, IBM has the R&D needed to get PowerPC where it needs to be. Motorola only cares about doing mobile technology.
meanwhile on the x86 side we have seen a continuation of the battle between intel and amd that gives us better pricing and a constant surge in power. since the g5 shipped, x86 has seen a fairly substantial speed increase and corresponding price drop that is the historical norm.
Like I said, nothing as exciting as the year before.
last time i checked the top end centrinos outperformed the top end g4 laptops in benchmark tests and they in many cases have double the battery life.
Funny thing since I have not seen such results!
the centrino with its tight integration with wireless, the chipset, and the motherboard and the use of expanded cache is a winner for intel.
the centrino is available in laptops down to half the weight of the g4 laptops as well.
They’re made with cheap commodity parts, what do you expect?
There’s nothing really special about Centrino, it’s more of a marketing gimmick than anything else.
he also failed to mention that if you want to, you can get all the top end x86 cpus in laptops as well if power consumption is not an issue for your mobile use (desktop replacement).
Yeah and maybe you could tote a car battery alongside to extend the life of your mobile computing adventure.
with x86 you have choices.
Yeah, the only real choice you have is which brand (emblem) will reside on your tower after purchase. If I buy a Dell, a Gateway, or an HP computer, I’m still getting the same thing, just a different shell (with emblem) and customer support. Of course my PCs are home brewed, no need to buy one with an emblem when I can place the more important “Intel or AMD Inside” 🙂
“when I can place the more important “Intel or AMD Inside” :-)”
I always thought ‘Intel Inside’ was a warning label.
Anyway, Seeker, you seem mad about the G5 updates. Does it really bother you enough to repeatedly post about it? Do you have some kind of investment in it? No one ever said there was going to be interim updates. No one said there would be a price drop (and there was depending on how you look at it, it just wasn’t across the board). IBM has been showing much more than commitment, they have been constantly working on the 970, Apple just hasn’t sold them yet. Apple isn’t IBMs only customer. There’s a list on their website.
meanwhile on the x86 side we have seen a continuation of the battle between intel and amd that gives us better pricing and a constant surge in power. since the g5 shipped, x86 has seen a fairly substantial speed increase and corresponding price drop that is the historical norm.
Hmmm lets see, the pentium4 has gone from 3.2 GHz -> 3.4GHz in one year wow, immense clock speed surge in two years there. Prescott isn’t that much better than the penitum 4 from a year ago.
last time i checked the top end centrinos outperformed the top end g4 laptops in benchmark tests and they in many cases have double the battery life.
the centrino is available in laptops down to half the weight of the g4 laptops as well.
Hmmm the last time I checked centrino was just a sticker that implied conformance to the centrino branding. A centrino can’t perform one way or the other expect peel off of the latoptop.
If you are talking about the pnetium-M, you might be right.
he also failed to mention that if you want to, you can get all the top end x86 cpus in laptops as well if power consumption is not an issue for your mobile use (desktop replacement).
Also if you don’t care about, weight, heat and noise.
with x86 you have choices.
Yes, Intel or AMD. Intel for 90% of the market and AMD for the rest.
Yet again the ‘benchmark’ word has reared it’s ugly head.
Yeah, benchmarks are just fine if you want to sit around and run them all day. You can go ahead and do that for all I care.
It’s been known for a long time that if you want to play games, go ahead and buy a PC. They perform better in that area, alot better infact. Microsoft has been aiming at that market for a great many years, and the release of the XBox obviously show’s just how serious they are about it. You could do this, or you could buy yourself a console. It’s really personal preference. Just don’t buy a Mac for games.
The software on the mac, if properly optimized, does infact make the x86 choke it down. By a very large factor. The trouble is of course educating developers into properly optimizing their applications. The MS OSX Office port looks fabulous, but leaves a whole lot to be desired in the speed department. I seriously doubt this is either the architectures or operating systems fault. It is merely down to MS not having enough experience with the OSX API.. for now. I’m rather hoping their next release sees a large improvement.
For Audio and Movie work, the Mac is also an excellent platform. Just make sure you have plenty of RAM (not bought from Apple, but it from crucial). OSX likes alot of it, but it makes good use of it.
Buy what suits your needs.
“Yes, Intel or AMD. Intel for 90% of the market and AMD for the rest.”
AMD is now outselling Intel in the desktop market, according to IDG.
AMD is now outselling Intel in the desktop market, according to IDG.
Yes I know, thier quarterly shipments are up but intel still has over 90% in the notebook and server market.
But the interesting thing is last quarters x86 shipments very below par.
But AMD is doing better, that is why I am looking very closely at thier stock
n all, some 48.7m x86 processors shipped during the first three months of the year. Some 83.6 per cent of them came stamped with the Intel logo. That represents a dip of 0.1 per cent over the previous quarter, barely enough to trouble the scorer.
In contrast, AMD’s market share for the period rose to 14.9 per cent, but since the increase was a mere 0.2 percentage points, again that’s as near as flat as makes no odds.
Other CPU makers, such as VIA and Transmeta, together saw their tiny market share dip, like Intel’s, by 0.1 per cent in AMD’s favour.
In the notebook arena, Intel took 90.1 per cent of the x86 market, up from 87.5 per cent in Q4 2003, Mercury’s numbers reveal. AMD’s share fell from 11.6 per cent to 8.4 per cent.
But it did better in the server space, gaining 1.7 percentage points of market share, to end up with 4.8 per cent of the business. You can argue for the benefits of Opteron over Xeon as long as you like, but it remains the case that AMD has a very long way to go to challenge Intel’s 96.9 per cent share of the x86 server market.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/21/q1_pc_cpu_shipments/
<<<<< The centrino is available in laptops down to half the weight of the g4 laptops as well.
>>>>> They’re made with cheap commodity parts, what do you expect?
How do “cheap commodity parts” have ANYTHING to do with the weight of the system?… and if the parts are “commodity”, i would asume theyre also priced cheaper too… so i get half the weight and a cheaper price, and thats a bad thing?
Oh and apart from the cpu and motherboard, almost ALL THE OTHER PARTS APPLE USE are “cheap commodity parts”… So enough with the typical mac zealot thinking that apple uses some magical superior componentry compared to other white box makers… i think the ibook, powerbook, and ipod fiasco’s speak for themselves.
Why does everyone buy into marketing so much, geez. Just use the computer u want. Oh, and yes i believe the MAC is a good platform, in fact i owned an eMAC, and a G5 powermac. So im not an anti-mac zealot.
peace
Apple probably did use good components at some stage. Recently however, they’ve had rather a large slump.
I’m not sure how long it has been going on, but their Q&A department need a right kick up the arse. It’s either Q&A, or the Executives just don’t give a stuff. They’re using new production plants out in China and Thailand, there’s probably been some managerial decision to use lower cost fabrications and lower cost components in order that they are still able to get their Yearly Bonus and Annual Pay Rise. *pat on back* well done.
I’ve worked for some of these big companies, I know how it works. It is not a pretty sight.
I’m hoping like hell that Mr.Jobs takes more than a passing glance at why the newer models aren’t living up to the expectations of old.
the centrino is available in laptops down to half the weight of the g4 laptops as well.
I challenge you to prove this statement. Find me a centrino laptop with a built-in optical drive that is half the weight of the lightest g4 laptop Apple makes.
Don’t make general statements that are not based on fact.
@debman “all I hear is: Balh blah wah wah Balh blah blah Im a troll Blah blah…” spoken like a true expert on the subject.
@PantherPPC– stick to the subject at hand and cease the concern with why anyone posts on this site.
But as for the lack of updates and price reductions, I don’t know if anyone from apple said they would go 10.5 months without either, but I can assure you that it worries many prospective buyers. Apple reduced the price of the single 1.6ghz and replaced the single 1.8ghz with a dual 1.8ghz about two months into release when they saw they werent selling and they couldnt produce enough dual 2ghz to meet demand. they had no choice but to sweeten the deal or they would have ended 2003 with nothing but a backlog of orders for the 2ghz machines. apples sales of pro towers in the first quarter also suffered a big hit as buyers waited for an upgrade.
I have no idea how much IBM has done for the g5 since release, but i do know they havent provided apple with any faster cpus for sale to end customers. Who else buys g5 chips from IBM?
@ Juggernaut “Nah, IBM has the R&D needed to get PowerPC where it needs to be. Motorola only cares about doing mobile technology”… I assume you mean mobile phones?
back to motorola we can see the analysts comment “IBM seems committed to increasing the MHz speed of the G5, something long gone at Motorola”
repeat “something long gone at Motorola”
isn’t that odd considering that 3/4s of all macs still ship with g4 cpus that motorola can’t seem to speed up much?
as for battery life issues with desktop cpus in laptops: as an informed consumer i can choose to buy a 2 lb laptop with maximum battery life and greatest mobility; i can choose a middle of the road 4-7lb laptop with better battery life, more power, and a reasonable weight if it wont hamper my mobility; finally, i can choose to buy a full blown desktop replacement with full power, weight from 7-11 lbs, weak battery life (2-3 hours), and realize that with that heavier weight it will suit me fine as i don’t travel that much or i only move from desk at work to my desk at home once per week or whatever. Consumers know what they are getting and choose based on their needs.
Fact is the best selling segment of laptops is the desktop replacement that weighs 7 lbs + and comes closest to the power of a true desktop….short battery life or not.
and finally,
“Yeah, the only real choice you have is which brand (emblem) will reside on your tower after purchase. If I buy a Dell, a Gateway, or an HP computer, I’m still getting the same thing, just a different shell (with emblem) and customer support”
well first off, yes you do have choices for the maker of your machine and their are a few dozen more to choose from than just those three you mention. Pick a maker based on style, features, price, whatever.
but as for variation in laptops you have a lot to choose from besides just an “emblem”
pick:
intel centrino
amd athlon xp mobile
amd athlon64 mobile
intel celeron
intel pentium 4 mobile
intel pentium 4 desktop cpu
intel pentium 4 extreme edition
pick screen sizes from 10″ to 17″
pick weights from 2 lbs to about 11 lbs.
pick your color
pick dozens of oses (including a full blown 64 bit os)
the list would go on for some time but most already know that you have these myriad variations to choose from when buying an x86 pc.
I find it highly ironic that Microsoft has opted to go with the PowerPC for the Xbox 2 (along with an ATI graphics chip).
That means that PowerPCs will be found in 2 of the 3 next-gen consoles in a couple of years (as long as Nintendo keeps the PPC architecture), and Intel will be in none.
I think it’s quite premature to write off the PowerPC architecture.
meaningless blather when ever I see Seeker’s posts.
“I challenge you to prove this statement. Find me a centrino laptop with a built-in optical drive that is half the weight of the lightest g4 laptop Apple makes.
Don’t make general statements that are not based on fact.”
okay here it is
apples lightest laptop is the 12″ powerbook at 4.6 lbs.
http://www.apple.com/powerbook/specs.html
sony x505 at 1.8 lbs.
http://www.mobileplanet.com/product.asp?cat_id=104&cat_name=Tablets…
toshiba r100 is 2.4 pounds
http://www.toshibadirect.com/td/b2c/cmod.to?seg=SMB&coid=-26371&sel…
samsung nq 20 at 2.8 lbs
http://samsung.com/Products/NotebookPCs/SamsungQseries/NotebookPCs_…
sony tr series at 3.1 lbs
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/U…
Sharp Actius MM20 at 2 lbs uses transmeta cpu
http://sharp.smartermall.com/product.asp?sku=2488398
are you a quibbler too? but it doesnt have an internal optical drive! or it is .1 of a pound over exactly half the weight! it doesnt have a 200gb hard drive! it doesnt have an ati x800 video card! stop being so literal….or are you an attorney that just likes to play word games?
there are many more models to choose from….you do the searching…i challenge you to do your own searching and learning.
my facts: there are centrino laptops that weigh less than half the lightest g4 mac laptop. period. thank you. double the weight of the sony x500 and you get 3.6 lbs…..still a pound less than the 12″ powerbook.
(debman is still smarting from all the times he wrote inaccurate information and got called on it. its ok debman, i dont hold it against you. at least my blather is accurate, whereas you are still on the pre-order list for that mac ati 9800 pro with 256mb ram…meanwhile PC users have already moved to 4 versions more powerful than that 128mb model you can get for a mac)
“stick to the subject at hand and cease the concern with why anyone posts on this site.”
It wasn’t a concern as to why you post on this site, but as to why all your posts are anti-Mac, yet there doesn’t seem to be many the OS Wars forum. As for the G5 sales, they assumed that the cheaper ones would sell better…not hard to believe if you look around the web…but as it turned out the dual 2 GHz higher end ones outsold the others by a wide margin. Adds a little weight to the iCheap idea, huh? If you want a list of the customers just to to IBMs site and look under the Power PC section. They list hardware buyers and OS developers alike.
“isn’t that odd considering that 3/4s of all macs still ship with g4 cpus that motorola can’t seem to speed up much? ”
They did just get a speed bump, but Moto is getting out of that business altogether. They have even spun off their microprocessor division. IBM has another chip that’s about out of development to replace the Moto G4s (I forgot the name but I’ll look it up later). It’s basically a G3 with altivec that scales over 3 GHz. The G3 was always more efficient than the G4. You have to keep in mind that Apple is in transition right now. Pretty much everything they have used except the G3 were made by Moto, who are getting out of the business. Any major shift like this is going to be bumpy.
“as for battery life issues with desktop cpus in laptops: as an informed consumer i can choose to buy a 2 lb laptop with maximum battery life and greatest mobility; i can choose a middle of the road 4-7lb laptop with better battery life, more power, and a reasonable weight if it wont hamper my mobility;”
From companies with different types of customers than Apple. For anything but day-to-day simple use those laptops don’t do much.
“finally, i can choose to buy a full blown desktop replacement with full power, weight from 7-11 lbs, weak battery life (2-3 hours), and realize that with that heavier weight it will suit me fine as i don’t travel that much or i only move from desk at work to my desk at home once per week or whatever.”
You’re going to use an 11 lb. laptop? At 2-3 hours of battery life? That’s pretty sad, no matter what the power is. If all it’s for is moving thigns between home and work, get an external drive. You can get a FireWire drive that’s powered completely through FireWire, one cable.
“Fact is the best selling segment of laptops is the desktop replacement that weighs 7 lbs + and comes closest to the power of a true desktop….short battery life or not.”
The ultralight full-featured ones are selling better than the desktop replacements. Look around.
“well first off, yes you do have choices for the maker of your machine and their are a few dozen more to choose from than just those three you mention. Pick a maker based on style, features, price, whatever.
but as for variation in laptops you have a lot to choose from besides just an “emblem”
pick:
intel centrino
amd athlon xp mobile
amd athlon64 mobile
intel celeron
intel pentium 4 mobile
intel pentium 4 desktop cpu
intel pentium 4 extreme edition
pick screen sizes from 10″ to 17″
pick weights from 2 lbs to about 11 lbs.
pick your color
pick dozens of oses (including a full blown 64 bit os)
the list would go on for some time but most already know that you have these myriad variations to choose from when buying an x86 pc.”
Do you remember back when you could go out and buy a computer? Not a bunch of parts, but a computer. Something that had a name, a style, integration, a feeling. Do you know why all of Apples computers have their own individual names? Because you aren’t going out and putting a bunch of commodity parts together. You are buying a computer. You are buying an IceBook, or a TiBook, or an AlBook, or a SawTooth, or a WindTunnel. These are computers that you can get attached to, trust, and enjoy using. That’s why Apple customers have such loyalty…Apple is the only ‘computer’ maker left who isn’t a commodity dealer.
And, um, not a single one of those links met the conditions of his challenge. Those are all sub-notebooks, not full-featured laptops. It’s like comparing an all-in-one to a tower.
“(debman is still smarting from all the times he wrote inaccurate information and got called on it. its ok debman, i dont hold it against you. at least my blather is accurate, whereas you are still on the pre-order list for that mac ati 9800 pro with 256mb ram…meanwhile PC users have already moved to 4 versions more powerful than that 128mb model you can get for a mac)”
You’ve been proven wrong on that one already, so why bother? Go read the other threads about it (you brought it up a few times). I’m not getting into that with you yet again, as it seems to always be your last resort. It’s off topic for this thread…take it into OS Wars if you want to discuss that.
http://forums.macrumors.com/printthread.php?t=38653
centrino beating single cpu g4 mac laptops in photoshop 7 benchmarks
1600 Centrino IBM T40 250
2x 1000 G4 OSX 10.2.2 (upgraded) 218 ?!(dual 533 logic board)
1300 Centrino Sony VAIO Z1A 196
1000 G4 17″ Powrbk OSX 10.2.6 196
1000 G4 OSX TiPbk 10.2.2 185
I came really close to buying a big dual-processor G5 Powermac, but I ended up buying a really fast P4. The Powermac looked like it was going to cost about $4,500, while the P4 cost about $1,300 (w/o monitor). The reason I didn’t buy the Mac was because I have been accumulating hardware and software over the last 2 years, and the P4 machine is basically a continuation in that direction. I can re-use a lot of stuff I already paid for. Having said that, if I had known 2 years ago all the junk I was going to have to buy for my Windows machine, I would have bought a Powermac then. My old $1200 1.2 Ghz P4, my old $1200 Athlon XP 2100, and my (loud) $1100 eMac could have all been replaced by one big beautiful silent G5. So my advice to first time computer purchasers is – get a Mac. I wish I had got a G5 when I bought the eMac.
Also, if I put any value on all the hours I played with linux, say 10 cents an hour, a Powermac would have been cheaper.
You live, and you learn. I *am* going to get a $4,500 Powermac at the end of the year. Thats about how long I am willing to put up with all the noise from this new 2.8Ghz P4. Could they make a louder chip-fan? I don’t think they could if they tried.
you can make your PC as quiet as you want it to be in just a few minutes time with all that money you saved:
start here:
http://www.quietpcusa.com/
kits made for the pentium 4
google will also give you all you need to get where you want to be with noise.
Again with the benchmarks.
The Pentium-M is actually rather good, I’d say it has the performance of a P3 with the SSE2 stuff of the P4. (MHz for MHz here), and a higher bus speed. The P4 was just a cheap trick to get higher clock speeds. That’s why they’re ditching further production and reverting to the Pentium-M (used in Centrino strangely enough), because it is the better chip.
Again, one of the problems applications are performing so badly under OSX is getting the programmers to come around to optimising their applications. Although sometimes they are not at fault. Using XLC (The IBM Compiler) instead of GCC will improve the speed of most applications a few fold. GCC has never been properly optimised for anything other than x86 really.
No doubt ‘TheSeeker’ will bring up something to do with “it being the programmers fault”, “oh now its the compilers fault”, “oh its the processors fault”.
I think Apple are doing incredibly well so far. They’ve converted to an entirely new environment. It is something they _HAD_ to do. They really didn’t have a choice, OS9 was pretty abysmal. Microsoft on the other hand can pretty much bring Longhorn out at their leisure.
OSX is one hot OS. I’d never have though of buying a Mac if it hadn’t have come along. Now it has, and I ordered a 15″ 1.5GHz PowerBook recently. I think I’m jumping on board at a rather good time.
I say give them a little longer. They’re still spreading their toes into a nice new pair of shoes.
All this talk of them ‘failing’ is a little premature.
Just think, would Microsoft have dreamed of making something as ambitious as Longhorn if OSX hadn’t have come along?
OSX obviously had an impact, XP is testament to that fact, with it’s Lunar skin look.
Please TheSeeker, don’t include “Centrino” in your CPU list just to make it longer. Centrino is not a processor, though the majority of the population geek population would have you think otherwise. A “Centrino” Laptop has a Pentium M CPU, or at least that’s what I read on Intel’s site.
And no… he didn’t save 3200. Look at all those computers he bought (someone obviously had a lot of cash to get rid of
). He said he could have replaced all his semi-expensive stuff (probably meaning he would have not bought it and put up with a “slow” computer a little longer) and buy one expensive one that actually made him happy.
There are some things that matter more than money.
Now go back to your list of laptops
I want a laptop that is a full featured desktop replacement, less than 5 lbs., with built in wireless, bluettooth, dvd-RW, CDRWat least 40 gigs of hard drive a gig of RAM. oh yea I want 4 hours of battery life while not using the wireless.
Your list doesn’t contain a single option to fill those requirements. I know because I am looking for a laptop. I find my self having to buy a Mac to get the features that are useful, not useless.
Centrino is a low powered deleron, that runs at a 1/3 of a p4 or roughly the equivalent of the Discontinued G3. nothing in your lot includes a dvd-rw, cd-rw while less than 6 pounds. As for the battery life I plan on surfing the web while away from my desk, that is the point after all. If you can’t understand that the I can’t help you.
debman, raptor, PantherPPC,
i usually follow your posts as they contian some sense, but turns out you are also fighting trolls now;
on the other hand, theseeker seems to have a valid argument here.. unfortunately this time im going to have to support him/her argument.
Im actually considering buying a laptop, my home machine is making too much noise, and this time i want to buy a laptop; So unlike an armchair analyst, im a real buyer still looking for a suitable solution.
I would have bought a dual 1.6G G5; but they dont even make such a prodcut; You know that all G5s are dual capable dont you? Apple is limiting my choice in the configuration. where as had there been multiple vendors, or some white box makers , if i dont have the time/expertise to build my own rig, i could ask for a specific conf, and get all i wanted.
Same with the emac, tell me how easy it is to install a new HD in it? or use my existing monitor, instead of what comes with it? i only want to dump my tower, not the monitor, and the emac is not a good investment for me as my monitor wont get me much on ebay or the local stores. but i certainly can get a few years or more of use from it. especially if i get a laptop; there you go , though i WANT a machine built by apple, running their s/w and certified by them, i cannot buy any of what they have , as they dont make sense, if i were to buy a highend machine, i would buy a dual 1.6 G5 ;
for what i do, 400 MHz/processor is not going to make a significant difference. but single vs dual is!!
all this only leads me to believe that apple is infact restricting my choice. i am given a set of options set by apple to choose from; where as that would be less of a concern in the x86 world!!
Resale value, it is generally considered that x86 boxes dont have a good resale value.. but i find evidence to the contrary; my friend spent $1500 on a new ibook in fall 2002;
come summer 2003, its value is down by almost $500 and now the same model is available on mac stores for less than half what he bought for!!
in fact this what scares me most!! now apple is on the MHz mill; so if i buy an ibook or PB now, with better processors coming from IBM in the coming months the current model will depreciate in price quite soon; where as intel , amd are not able to increase thier clocks any more.. so the value is likely to depreciate less, compared to apple products.
i want to be able to sell for a decent price what i buy with a good part of my savings.
benchmarks: well personally i dont beleive most of the benchmarks published even by so called independent media as most of them are some how or the other tilted towards the wintel world;
cheers
ram
So in both the desktop and laptops with apple , i get a good system, well though out, and as i hear.. good build quality;
but not much choice in the actual configuration.
with the x86 crowd, i get a lot of choice, but clunky and heavy “artillery” type systems for laptops, and general run of the mill desktops;
so much for choice, unless it becomes compelling for me to buy another computer, i wont buy either ; and that time seems to be sooner than later:( ;
ps: compare http://products.gateway.com/products/GConfig/proddetails.asp?system…
and
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/712…
also kindly consider the depreciation i spoke about in the previous post..
thanks
ram
: there are centrino laptops that weigh less than half the lightest g4 mac laptop. period. thank you. double the weight of the sony x500 and you get 3.6 lbs…..still a pound less than the 12″ powerbook.
That cost ridiculous amounts of money with 900MHz cpus. No internal optical drives.
You need compare similar products. all the laptops you posted are ulraprotables, they sacrifice everything for portability. A good video card and an optical drive are a must in any of the laptop you compare to an ibook.
You are comparing apples and oranges, to use the cliche,
I am being literal becuase you make statement and wrongful comparsions. You compare a dual cpu machine to a single cpu machine and cliam the single one to be cheaper.
If you had made a more reasonable statement about the centrino laptops, I would cut you some slack.
Take the price point of the laptops you suggested and compare it to the powebook or the ibook. You will find that the Apples are heavier but cheaper and offer more and cost less.
Yup, Apple limits the choices. It’d be nice if they had one of those “Configure your Mac” things on the Apple Online Store, but.. I don’t see it happening. Fact of the matter is, most people don’t want to do that (from what I’ve seen).
So, you want to buy a new computer, this time you want to get a laptop, but you wont buy an Apple laptop because Apple limits your choices of desktop machines? Seems like a bit of flawed logic.
I agree though with your point about debman though. I used to find him very informative, but I think TheSeeker pushed him over the edge. Maybe once TheSeeker stops trying to be an anti-mac evangelist and lets people make up their own mind, we’ll start seeing good posts from debman again.
oh, I had no idea that I had a following 🙂
well, it is not that I am a troll, it is just that Seeker ticked me off.
I should stay out of Mac stories, the posts raise my blood preasure.
thank-you for knocking some sense into me.
note that there is no comparison on price or features.
the man challenged my statement that you can buy a centrino based laptop that weighs half of what the lightest mac laptop weighs.
he then wants to add caveats of what it has to have to fit my definition of half weight (an optical drive). did i ever say a half weight ultra portable has the same feature set as a laptop that weighs over 2x as much?
for those that want light they can get light. to the tune of 1.8 lbs. if you want the lightest laptop in the world you will also pay a pretty penny for it.
for those that want all the other features people have started yammering about, go shop and find what you want. if you dont even know how to shop for a computer or read what people write, why would anyone on this site take your word on technology statements?
and this incessant whining about what a centrino is or isnt is quite sophmoric. we all know that the centrino is a pentium-m bundled with a specific chipset and wireless. give it a rest, people refer to it as the centrino.
wow, now I really feel like a dork. 🙁
I have to tell you, I really don’t care if it is a mac or a PC that is being argued about. I don’t care if it is OS X , XP, Longhorn, or any flavor of Linux.
I don’t care if it is over Java, C#, C++, C or Rebol, etc.
if people make disengenious remarks and use lies and half truths and illformed and irrational thought processes to argue their pont, I get mad.
I need to put a filter on my fingers from now on I think and just grin and clentch my jaw when people like Seeker spout ther vitrol.
thanks Richard and RAM.
does just fine most of the time but god forbid if you ever point out something that he wrote that is inaccurate (he admitted so himself). he will then follow you around calling you a troll and post comments filled with nonsense like “all I hear is:
Balh blah wah wah Balh blah blah Im a troll Blah blah…”
now who is the one spouting?
if you need to right that bad, fine than there is an ati 9800 pro 256mb card.
Im actually considering buying a laptop, my home machine is making too much noise, and this time i want to buy a laptop; So unlike an armchair analyst, im a real buyer still looking for a suitable solution.
I would have bought a dual 1.6G G5; but they dont even make such a prodcut; You know that all G5s are dual capable dont you?
Let me get this straight you want a laptop but you are also looking for a dual 1.6Ghz g5? No I didn’t know that all G5s are dual capable. I am not sure they are becuase the single g5 is only capable of 4GB RAM, I wonder why you can’t expand it to 8 like the others if it was just a single cpu in a dual board.
Same with the emac, tell me how easy it is to install a new HD in it? or use my existing monitor, instead of what comes with it?
Whoa Ram stop for a minute what happened to the laptop, you jumped from wanting a laptop -> a dual g5 -> emac in one paragraph.
ut i certainly can get a few years or more of use from it. especially if i get a laptop; there you go , though i WANT a machine built by apple, running their s/w and certified by them, i cannot buy any of what they have , as they dont make sense, if i were to buy a highend machine, i would buy a dual 1.6 G5 ;
for what i do, 400 MHz/processor is not going to make a significant difference. but single vs dual is!!
Then buy a dual 1.25Ghz g5 I hear it outperfroms the 1.6Ghz g5 for threaded apps costs . It solves your monitor problem. But it is noisy from what I hear.
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/706…
Resale value,
If you are buying a computer, any computer for that matter, never think about the resale value. The ibook your freind bought sold for $1000 after about 6+ months, that is not bad, what were you expecting it to sell for $1500. A PC would be worth nothing in 6 months.
So in both the desktop and laptops with apple , i get a good system, well though out, and as i hear.. good build quality;
but not much choice in the actual configuration.
with the x86 crowd,
Doesn’t it seem unfair to you that you are comaring on company to an entire ecosystem. If you substitute say IBM instead of Apple and just reread your post, it would still have the same effect. Apple is a company the x86 market is an ecosystem of many hundreds of companies. I am an apple user for about 6 months now, I am more than very happy with my purchase. All the computers in my house (mostly three other x86 PCs) are pretty old on may be about an year old, home built. But the Apple is the most complete computing experience I have ever had. I am happy with it. I went through the same thought process about a few months ago when the centrino line was introduced. I chose he apple for OS X and am very happy I did.
But if you are looking for a good x86 laptop you can’t go wrong with a pentium-m based one.
the man challenged my statement that you can buy a centrino based laptop that weighs half of what the lightest mac laptop weighs.
A laptop is not an ultraportable. Apple makes laptop/notebooks, the ones you put forward are ultraportables.
No reason to feel like a dork. These comment sections raise my blood pressure too, especially now that TheSeeker is on a mission to educate the masses about how horrible Apple is.
with x86 you have choices.
Yeah, the only real choice you have is which brand (emblem) will reside on your tower after purchase.
That`s a pretty ignorant comment to make. So you`re telling me that my dual 846 (8-way capable) Opteron workstation (built for way under half the cost of a comparible Mac – in the U.K.) is no different to any other x86 box ? Maybe when I drop a couple of dual core Opterons into the 940 sockets next year you`ll change your mind.
yeah I know there is. it was released at macworld last january
A laptop is not an ultraportable. Apple makes laptop/notebooks, the ones you put forward are ultraportables.
I need to rephrase that, it didn’t come out as I intended. You can’t compare an Apple laptop, which is not marketed as an ultraportable, it could be construed as one since it is so light and sleek, to ultraportables that are not fully featured as an apple laptop.
“A laptop is not an ultraportable”
did you decide that on your own? did you consult some god of technology in the sky?
go those companies sites, what do they call them?
ultraportable laptops.
read reviews about them see them on sale at stores
they are called “ultraportable laptops”
desktop replacements are likewise still laptops.
if you can use it in your laptop it is a laptop….hence using it on top of your lap. likewise if it opens like a notebook it is a notebook.
get real.
you ever notice that you seem to always play the semantics and “defintition of is” games to win an argument rather than using real facts?
fact, the argument was about notebook computers not portables that need a network connection or external drive to load anything onto them.
it was announced at macworld 4 months ago but you cannot buy one from ati or apple and if you go posting your links to third party sites again all will see that they are typos and show boxes featuring the 128mb and use model numbers for the non special edition 128mb model.
but you can believe it if it keeps you from turning into a troll again.
get real.
I did rephrase my statement. Care to take a stab at it now. Compare simlar things. You can’t compare an 10.4 inch, optical driveless ultraportable to a full featured laptop.
it was announced at macworld 4 months ago but you cannot buy one from ati or apple and if you go posting your links to third party sites again all will see that they are typos and show boxes featuring the 128mb and use model numbers for the non special edition 128mb model.
ATI is late to release a product and it is somehow Apples fault. The fact is it was announced to be available. Fault ATI for being late not Apple. Get real
“fact, the argument was about notebook computers not portables that need a network connection or external drive to load anything onto them.”
what arguement? none of those things were qualified in my statement that you can get a centrino laptop that weighs half of a g4 laptop. that is all that i said and someone came along challenging it and was shown to be quite mistaken. i likewise predicted that trolls like you would come along and then say all sorts of bunk about what it does or doesnt have so it cant be right.
“ATI is late to release a product and it is somehow Apples fault. The fact is it was announced to be available. Fault ATI for being late not Apple. Get real ”
i fault neither of them. i take exception to debman mistakenly saying you can now buy them and now he has it out for me for correcting his error. he even has searched the net to find sites with typos that list the 128mb model as having 256mb. it remains the mac edition and not the special edition but he will not give it up.
t that you can get a centrino laptop that weighs half of a g4 laptop.
hmmm let me see your statement contains a full featured product, a g4 laptop. You claim to find a centrino based ultraportable and compare it to a full featured laptop to prove the above statement.
Any reasonable person would assume you would get a full featured laptop, duh. Your statement by virtue of reference to one item, requires you to compare a similar item. The Apple you linked to in you post earlier is your g4 laptop, reason would have it that you would choose a similar class of system.
<mocking tone> But Raptor! My Toyota Echo gets WAY better mileage than your Ford F150.
</mocking tone>
*nudges TheSeeker* eheh
and you can see why I said he argues sematics rather than substance.
he tries hard though, thats all that matters 🙂
to put it is a phrase that seeker would say:
“our F150 sucks, I can find a truck that gets at least 20 miles to the gallon more than your truck”
*posts links to the echo, the prius, the insight, the hybrind cuvuc, and a skateboard*
that should be a Your at the begining of my quote and the last car should be a CIVIC.
a g4 laptop that weighs 4.6 lbs with a 12″ screen to a 8 way server.
the sony mentioned has a full featured desktop os
it weighs 1.8 lbs
it has double the ram of the mac base config
it has a 10 inch screen with the same resolution as the mac
it has a 1ghz cpu
it has a 2.5 to 4 hour battery life
it has usb 2, video out, firwire, and various other ports
it has a pcmcia slot
it has 802.11b/g wireless
so you will quibble over the fact that to shave 2.8 lbs, it goes without an optical drive. fact is you can add a slimline floppy or optical drive if needed…and im not sure but i would imagine for a lot less than 2.8 lbs.
quibble on.
not hybrind, it is getting late…I wish we had an edit button.
I think it has gone from quibbling with ou to making fun of your comparisons and semantic based retorts.
are you sure your not a politician? you sure have the requeset debate skills.
show me the goods, the substance for the ati 9800 pro with 256mb mac special edition video card
“and you can see why I said he argues sematics rather than substance”
not semantics, the goods aren’t there.
quibble on. you can buy a pc laptop that weighs less than half of what a g4 laptop weighs.
Just wondering, cause I don’t think I’ve seen you answer this one… what if someone told you that the reason they wanted a Mac was for the OS, and not the hardware? That’s not why I bought my iBook, but I know a few people who switched because of the OS.
…but you can believe it if it keeps you from turning into a troll again.
Since ‘TheSeeker’ is such a stickler for semantics:
Troll
Definition 1: Reference to a person who enters internet chat rooms and forums for the sole purpose of creating havoc, controversy, and discontent. The word stems from the fishing term “trolling,” which involves slowing pulling your line behind a boat in hopes of catching some unsuspecting fish as “bait” moves past them. In a similar manner, an internet troll makes posts or comments that he/she hopes will catch the interest of others and create the havoc that they crave.
“all I hear is:
Balh blah wah wah Balh blah blah Im a troll Blah blah…”
please see moderated down posts for debman.
that was really on topic and pertinent to the discussion. i assume it was meant to elicit a response from me as you directed your attack at me.
troll away.
to discuss its merits and such dont you think?
i have commented on its price though….pretty expensive…especially when you consider the hardware you have to buy to run it.
Considering only the first few comments were actually on topic. But… if you’d feel better shying away from the question (I dare you not to mention price, as most users never upgrade their OS without buying a new machine, which essentially gives them a free OS), that’s quite alright, I won’t hold it against you, I promise
.
actually Apple achieves about 15 million last quarter selling os upgrades.
divide that out.
if you want all the latest and greatest from apple you need to upgrade the os. there are many people still using dual older g4s and g3 based macs that have paid repeatedly to upgrade the mac os. especially when you consider that that the first two versions are generally regarded to be just above beta software (and dont go flaming me on that when we can pull out all the quotes from apple execs themselves talking about how 10.2 finally brought a gui that moved when you told it to).
🙂
You avoided the question entirely, fantastic, grade A politician you are!
Thanks for playing, and better luck next time.
t has double the ram of the mac base config
it has a 10 inch screen with the same resolution as the mac
it has a 1ghz cpu
it has a 2.5 to 4 hour battery life
512 MB is the max config of the sony. The power book a maximum of 1.25 GB. The graphics card on the sony eats away from the main memory, with 512 MB max RAM that doesn’t sound too good. The Graphics option on the Apple ibook/powerbook has a dedicated 64MB DDR graphics memory.
The 2.5 hours is with the standard battery, what would you like to wager that the 4 hour battery would increase the weight of your sony.
The sony has a 20GB drive the Apple a 60GB HD.
The sony costs a whopping $3200, the powerbook with a 1.33Ghz G4 costs $1600, exactly half.
This goes to prove my point that apple puts value in minimzing size and weight, that’s why you don’t see a g5 in a Apple laptop, yet. Apple likes to keep its laptop 1.0-1.1 ish inches thick, if it can.
P.S: I am not quibbling, I am dismantling your erroneous claim on glaringly obvious facts.
i listed the features not to say it was more powerful than the mac or better priced. i listed them for the quibblers that say you cant compare the 12″ powerbook with one of the worlds lightest laptops. the specs are similar and they therefore can be compared and are compared.
again, my point was that it is less than half the weight. what part of that do you not understand? to say they are not comparable is ridiculous. the sony has very SIMILAR specs but is designed for one thing primarily and that is to be as light as possible.
the claim remains that you can buy a pc laptop that is more than half the weight of the lightest mac made. for the people that need or want that they will not be buying a mac. price or other feature set aside, there are mobile professionals that value weight above all else.
if you want all the latest and greatest from apple you need to upgrade the os. there are many people still using dual older g4s and g3 based macs that have paid repeatedly to upgrade the mac os.
hmmm… why is that bad? You expect Apple to hand out free Oses for life. What about microsoft, do you get the latest and greatest without an OS upgrade. Can I get Avalon and DWM on XP or can I get IE 6.0 on windows 95 or NT4.0 or windows media player 9 for instance?
Get Real.
and yes ms supports there oses a great deal longer than apple does.
windows 98 shipped in mid 1998
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;en-us;Prodoffer32…
Attention
In accordance with the Microsoft Product Support Lifecycle, no-charge support for Windows 98 ended on July 1, 2003. Paid-only support will continue to be available from Microsoft at $35 per incident until June 30, 2006. Support will also be available from some third party providers.
Microsoft will also continue to offer a variety of self-help resources on the Product Support Services Web site until at least June 30, 2007, one year after phone support for Windows 98 ends on June 30, 2006. These resources include the Microsoft Knowledge Base and Newsgroups.
that is what i call a long life of free and paid support
5 years of free support 1998-2003
8 years of support you can still receive if you want to pay rather than upgrade your system 1998-2006
listed the features not to say it was more powerful than the mac or better priced. i listed them for the quibblers that say you cant compare the 12″ powerbook with one of the worlds lightest laptops. the specs are similar and they therefore can be compared and are compared.
Similar, in what way, the damn thing doesn’t even have an optical drive. Read my above post again, if you are a reasonable person you would see that they are not even close to similar.
again, my point was that it is less than half the weight. what part of that do you not understand? to say they are not comparable is ridiculous. the sony has very SIMILAR specs but is designed for one thing primarily and that is to be as light as possible.
What part of comparable system don’t you understand? An ultraportable, subnote book isn’t in the same league as a full featured all-in-one laptop.
the claim remains that you can buy a pc laptop that is more than half the weight of the lightest mac made. for the people that need or want that they will not be buying a mac. price or other feature set aside, there are mobile professionals that value weight above all else.
The fact doesn’t remain, you are comparing two very different things. None of the specs of the Apple 12 inch power book are matched by the Sony x-505.
Like others have said your example is like comparing a miata to a SUV, in a discussion comparing the weight of SUVs. The only thing a miata and an SUV have in common are that they are vehicles.
“can I get IE 6.0 on windows 95 or NT4.0 or windows media player 9 for instance”
you want new gear released to work on oses that are 9 and 10 years old respectively…and free too i bet?
thats asking a lot.
apple meanwhile is releasing updates and standard software that only works on versions of os x that are 4 yrs old and less…many of their items only work on newer versions of os x so if you bought os x 10.0 you will need to pay to upgrade to get support.
and yes ms supports there oses a great deal longer than apple does.
Care to give and example of this? The industry standard is 5 years.
http://www.info.apple.com/usen/legacy/
The original owners of any of the following products (in the USA) may call 1-800-SOS-APPL for technical support. We have compiled a complete list of Legacy products, links to most of the major legacy product FAQs and links to Web support for specific products, just click any of links below.
If you are the owner of any of these products you can check the Discussions for Older Apple Products (Apple ID is required), refer to the AppleCare Site Index for links to current Apple products support pages, or browse the extensive amount of technical support information in Apple’s Knowledge Base – Archive.
Software updates for earlier versions of Mac OS and Apple hardware are available by browsing the Downloads Web site. You can look at the Older Software Downloads page for a list of all software released prior to 1998-01-01. All software downloads are subject to the Software licensing
http://www.info.apple.com/support/oldersoftwarelist.html
Talk about long support indeed. Apple supports products tha shipped prior to 1998
Just for reference, here was the challenge, copied and pasted…
“I challenge you to prove this statement. Find me a centrino laptop with a built-in optical drive that is half the weight of the lightest g4 laptop Apple makes.”
It’s a very clear challenge.
No about OS X charges, no one forces an upgrade, and new software still runs on previous OS X versions, it just doesn’t get to use the new OS features.
As for OS X being just above beta until 10.2, that’s correct, but don’t forget that the default installed OS on a Mac was OS 9 up until that point, and if you started with 10.0, the total cost of owning 10.0 and 10.1 was $40. That’s the other half of your half-truthed arguement.
the sony doesnt burn dvds unless you plug one in
they both push video out for presentations. they both can do email, they both can run standard office apps. they both can do accounting software.
the sony isnt designed to compete with some alienware gaming laptop with upgradable video card. it is a mobile professionals laptop.
and buyers do compare models like that sony and the 12″ powerbook. if your goal is to drive to work a miata or suv makes no difference. but if you live in cramped city the miata sure is handy for parking and the suv is handy for camping trips. they both get you to work though. the sony can do nearly everything that the powerbook can do but it weighs a lot less and many users value that feature.
The least you could do is get the comparison right. It was an Echo and a Ford F-150. Quibble on.
Plugging in an external drives defeats the ‘portable’ part.
apple meanwhile is releasing updates and standard software that only works on versions of os x that are 4 yrs old and less…many of their items only work on newer versions of os x so if you bought os x 10.0 you will need to pay to upgrade to get support.
Hmmm. let’s see if an app requires 2000/XP as the bare minimum can I run it on 98. Let’s see can I run Office 2003 on any thing prior to 2000/Xp? NO.
Even windows Me is not supported, let’s see when was it released 4 years ago. Spanner in the works!!!
Your point????
BTW, IE 6 is available for win98, media player 9 is too, my bad.
The least you could do is get the comparison right. It was an Echo and a Ford F-150. Quibble on.
I thought the F150 would be a overkill, the Apple he was comparing wasn’t that much bigger
Sorry to change the analogy by the way.
“Just for reference, here was the challenge, copied and pasted…
“I challenge you to prove this statement. Find me a centrino laptop with a built-in optical drive that is half the weight of the lightest g4 laptop Apple makes.”
It’s a very clear challenge.”
make up any challenge you like, i didnt claim that you could buy a laptop that weighs half as much without an optical drive internally mounted.
i wrote initially:
“the centrino is available in laptops down to half the weight of the g4 laptops as well.”
nor did i say half the weight of the lightest mac made…mac laptops run up to 6.9 lbs in weight for the heaviest model. so on comes the quibbler making some challenge that has no merit based on what i said.
anyway take the 1.8 lb sony and add this for 1 lb.
http://pioneerusa.com/pna/product/detail/0,,2076_17573091_23143977_…
carry it when you need it.
“Like others have said your example is like comparing a miata to a SUV, in a discussion comparing the weight of SUVs. The only thing a miata and an SUV have in common are that they are vehicles.”
the sony can do nearly everything that the powerbook can do but it weighs a lot less and many users value that feature
Except play a CD without an attachment, Run Large memory Apps with out thrashing, play a decent 3D game on the shared memory video card, hold a large amount of data (40GB less). Not to talk about eye strain from long term squinting at a 10.4 inch screen. And the whooper all this at twice the cost !!!!!
“Plugging in an external drives defeats the ‘portable’ part.”
actually you are exactly backwards.
by removing it you get a laptop that is more portable by being lighter.
you keep it on your desk or you carry it if needed.
i dont use my cd rom every day. nor do i use a dvd rom everyday. i rarely burn dvds. i burn cd-r a little more frequently. for those that need them though, they can buy an external to carry.
It seems it always comes down to the hardware. This is the true story, Mac zealots don’t respond because I hate you, only people who want an intelligent discussion respond troll somewhere else. If you want to say the PPC architecture is better than x86 I’ll buy it because it is true for the most part, but please be reasonable. Mac gives you the complete package but that doesn’t mean you can’t get the complete package from PC hardware, if you wanted to spend as much as you were going to spend on a g5 in pc land you could get an incredible 64 bit SMP system, hell you could have 4 processors for all i care, and you could have all the latest and greates SATA and all Firewire usb 2 everythin you could ever want. I have a 2 year old Dell dimension 8200 with 256 mb ram and a 1.8 ghz p4 the one with the slower FSB, i upgraded three things, i added a cheap HDD, put a usb 2.0 card in for my iPod which i love but it does have issues, again trolls don’t reply, and a geforece FX 5700 with 256mb This computer runs fast and great for me and i cannot justify buying anything for it. I run linux and have the latest and greatest and everything runs fast, really fast, and of course games are incredible on the new card. Mac zealots talk about the PPC architecture as if x86 lacks functionality, sorry folks but to this day my processor is the last bottleneck on my system and there really are no bottlenecks.
As far as software goes, if you are going to defend Microsoft Windows against OS X, seek help. The same computer that i am talking about now while running windows 2000 seems like it is ancient mostly because of the endless amount of spyware and things but the shared memory thing just isn’t working out. While technically Apple isn’t really abusing the open source way of life, taking open source code and including it in your kernel and keeping that as an open source project to avoid licensing concerns is kinda shwanky, especially on a proprietary architecture where it is useless to anyone who doesn’t have a PPC and if you do have a PPC then you have already paid for your OS I know i am going to get flamed and flooded with links to obscure projects like darwin on x86 and things oh well that’s the price you pay for speaking your peace.
“make up any challenge you like”
I didn’t make up that challenge, that’s the one from the second page that everyone was refering to. He put out a challenge to you, you accepted and then failed to meet the requirements.
no he made a challenge based on my initial comment and twisted to suit his objectives.
find me a quad processor mac
find me a mac with a 256mb video card in it
find me a mac with quadro or firegl 3d card in it
what the hell does it mean to make up some bogus challenge?
my claim is still accurate and i posted to defend it not meet some quibblers challenge.
i can buy dozens of models of pc laptops that weigh half of what a mac laptop weighs
the 17″ powerbook weighs 6.9 lbs.
the sony tr series weighs 3.1 lbs and has internal optical drives
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/U…
sony 3.1 lbs, apple powerbook 17″ 6.9 lbs. less than half so i win”.
This is seriously annoying me, this optical drive nonsense is completely out of hand, it’s sounding really dumb and defensive like saying you like your old clunker over a mercedes because it has more cupholders! Does anyone here work for a living? I think it is dumb to have an optical or floppy drive built into a laptop all of the work i do is done via the internet/intranet and email or directly off of the laptop, in fact the only time i have ever used and optical drive on a laptop is to do occasional cd burning and installs of office and once a bootable linux distro, the office is avoided in my personal use since i am an open source junkie and download openoffice, so you know what i would rather have an external one and unless you carry your laptop on your lap without any sort of laptop case you can just stuff the external drive into it and call it a day, it is one less thing to take up space in the laptop and use battery life. enough said.
make up any challenge you like, i didnt claim that you could buy a laptop that weighs half as much without an optical drive internally mounted.
You might not have claimed it. But my challenge was very precise as PantherPPC pointed out. You responded to my challenge, meaning that you took it up. You could have argued what you calimed then, but instead you chose to respond, indicating acceptance.
Once you have accepted the challenge you must at the terms set forth by the challenge. If the terms weren’t acceptable to you, you should have said so in the begining prior to accepting.
That out of the way, what others are pointing out is that you have not met my challenge by providing a list of ultraportables. You are the one quibbling by changing the terms of the challenge to suit your needs.
http://compreviews.about.com/cs/laptops/tp/aatpultranote.htm
Ultraportable laptops vary greatly between companies. They are defined as weighing less than 5 pounds and about 1.5″ or less in thickness. Many do not have an internal optical drive, but thanks to recent advancements some do. With the new Pentium M platform, many have outstanding battery life. Due to their small size and weight, they are very popular with business travellers
the 12″ powerbook is now an ultraportable. doh.
“actually you are exactly backwards.
by removing it you get a laptop that is more portable by being lighter.
you keep it on your desk or you carry it if needed.
i dont use my cd rom every day. nor do i use a dvd rom everyday. i rarely burn dvds. i burn cd-r a little more frequently. for those that need them though, they can buy an external to carry.”
Well of course you rarely burn things, the only software available to you is pretty sad. If I was stuck with Windows and Linux I wouldn’t burn many DVDs either.
“I know i am going to get flamed and flooded with links to obscure projects like darwin on x86 and things oh well that’s the price you pay for speaking your peace.”
I won’t flood you with links, but Darwin (under many names) was on x86 before PPC. Check out the evolution of NeXTStep/OpenStep/Rhapsody/OS X to get more info. It was on other things even before x86, too.
“no he made a challenge based on my initial comment and twisted to suit his objectives.”
He made a very clear challenge, and it wasn’t twisted as the quote I reposted was the exact wording of his original challenge, not a changed variant of it.
Nick C., I work for a living and couldn’t get my job done without a superdrive in my laptop. I constantly have to burn CDs and DVDs on the road, and lugging an external drive (especially one that needs to be plugged in to a power source) is a real hassle.
“Ultraportable laptops vary greatly between companies. They are defined as weighing less than 5 pounds and about 1.5″ or less in thickness. Many do not have an internal optical drive, but thanks to recent advancements some do. With the new Pentium M platform, many have outstanding battery life. Due to their small size and weight, they are very popular with business travellers
the 12″ powerbook is now an ultraportable. doh.”
Which is why I called them sub-notebooks earlier. Sub as in not full featured.
I think it is dumb to have an optical or floppy drive built into a laptop all of the work i do is done via the internet/intranet and email or directly off of the laptop, in fact the only time i have ever used and optical drive on a laptop is to do occasional cd burning and installs of office and once a bootable linux distro, the office is avoided in my personal use since i am an open source junkie and download openoffice, so you know what i would rather have an external one and unless you carry your laptop on your lap without any sort of laptop case you can just stuff the external drive into it and call it a day, it is one less thing to take up space in the laptop and use battery life. enough said.
Whoa there with the umbrella statements buddy? If you think it is stupid to have an optical drive in a laptop, very well go on and get one without it. Some of us like to carry just a laptop and the adapter to meeting.
Optical drives support power managment you know. They can be put into powersaving mode where all the drive electronics are off.
“You might not have claimed it. But my challenge was very precise as PantherPPC pointed out. You responded to my challenge, meaning that you took it up. You could have argued what you calimed then, but instead you chose to respond, indicating acceptance.
Once you have accepted the challenge you must at the terms set forth by the challenge. If the terms weren’t acceptable to you, you should have said so in the begining prior to accepting.”
if you arent some sort of quibbling grand master, you are here by crowned the king of rule making quibbling nonsense.
i must do none of the crap you write. this isn’t some congressional hearing with form, etiquette, and law controlling how we write.
you sound like a ninny 4th grader. you didnt follow my rules so there you are disqualified. grow up.
PantherPPC it is my fault that i was no clear in my meanings, legacy systems and computing history are fascintating i agree but does a desktop user have any real use for Darwin? Not really only PPC users which is great because they can update the source and upgrade their core os which is good, it is a personal feeling that my work was being abused because i still have to pay to get the complete package. PERSONALLY but for you i am sure it is different.
Additionally, I assume you work in IT or in visual arts, for the masses of worker bees that use their computers to access the internet and make excel spreadsheets and use in house accounting type programs drives are not necessary, in fact they are so unnecessary that Nationwide purchased ibm thinkpads in bulk with DVD players with the os still being nt 4 which doesn’t even know what DVD is! They are upgrading this year or next to xp though.
Thirdly, this is the worst thing to say and i know you are you going to be angry with me because it is a nasty thing to say someone and is almost an insult more than anything, but please please please don’t comment on something that you don’t know about! The work that the k3b team put in should never be neglected. k3b is the most incredible program for burning cd’s and dvd’s. From the ground up it is based on incredible technology, my 16x cd writer goes at 18x becuase the underlying techology cdrdao and cdrecord have been tweaked to death, the k3b interface looks incredible and is actually intuitive, it is a kde app so it integrated you can create cd’s by right clicking, it has the integration of the windows burning program on XP and the features and interface of nero express, and the eye candy of OS X or motif or whatever style you want it to be.
I mostly agree with you. Please notice however that there have been very few “Ditch your PC, get a Mac!” comments. It seems that TheSeeker thinks that he’s thought it all out for us, and that his findings are reason enough for the whole world to do exactly as he says. We beg to differ. Buy a PC, buy an AmigaONE, buy a Mac, get a Linux PC, do whatever you feel like it. You shouldn’t be hounded by some guy on a power trip.
Since you called me a quibbler, here is the ultimate quibble.
The sony x505 is not a centrino laptop.
I have refuted almost every one of your claims with facts. You claimed microsofts long support, Apple apps not working on older Oses. I refuted all these with facts.
“I constantly have to burn CDs and DVDs on the road, and lugging an external drive (especially one that needs to be plugged in to a power source) is a real hassle.”
first it isnt lugging if with the drive it is still weighs 2 lbs less than the mac.
and secondly you dont need an external power source if you know how to shop.
http://www.dynamism.com/x505/pricing.shtml
PCGA-DDRW1 Firewire cable-powered DVD±RW Drive (no external power needed)
and please revise
the sony x505 with its new carbon fiber case only weighs 1.73 lbs.