Software developers will soon have their chance to smoke what Sun Microsystems is rolling. At the JavaOne conference next month, Sun will release a developer kit for its Project Looking Glass 3-D software. This will be the first time Sun has let anyone outside of the company fiddle with that code, and the move confirms that Project Looking Glass is heading toward a general release on Linux and Solaris.
Sun to Share the 3-D Project Looking Glass with Developers
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
and when can i apt-get install it?
Many people have reported that 3D interfaces don’t work well (don’t improve productivity). Second, what is the point of having a 3D interface that is not reald 3D. From what I saw in the videos, 3D is projected on a 2D surface. There are $3000 laptops that have 3D monitors that don’t need glasses, but how many can affor that?
Is there any docs that show how java3D works and how to make reg apps 3D? Is this only possible with gtk or can I make 3D QT apps too?
“There are $3000 laptops that have 3D monitors that don’t need glasses, but how many can affor that?”
I can afford it – but I wouldn’t spend it on that. Certainly not for what I’ve seen anyhow. I haven’t seen anything that let’s me “get at” or “use” information more conveniently or better than before.
Plus, the applause I saw on the Sun video (referring to Sun’s actual product now) where you could “turn over” the web page and write on the back??? Why, and better yet, why??? This coming from someone who loves his gadgets.
It’s funny how computer users are are asking “wow what can I do with this sofware” to “what license is this software covered under”.
Just hear yourselves, you sound like a bunch of mad dogs foaming at the mouth about software licenses.
“Just hear yourselves, you sound like a bunch of mad dogs foaming at the mouth about software licenses. ”
Unfortunately, as a developer, the license software is placed under directly impacts what I can do with that software. Regardless of the technology, if the license restricts what I can do with it, it’s important to know that BEFORE proceeding. It’s the way things are. It would be nice if Sun picked an open license to release this under (though I am not holding my breath), but whatever license they release it under will require the attention of developers.
As for the concept of 3D desktops and if they are useful or not. Well, I guess Looking Glass doesn’t seem useful at first glance, though none of us have actually used it so we really can’t say.
What I am more interested in is not what they have shown us it can do, but how can we take what it can do and make it useful. I know some people look at the demo’s, and turning over a browser and writing on the back doesn’t seem efficient, but that’s not the point of the demo. The demo is made to show you what it can do. Now, how to take all these new features, and make a more efficient desktop. It’s not what the desktop can do, but what can we do with the desktop that allows us to work in a 3D environment.
It is cool that it potentially adds another dimension to work with but what could this offer that an additional windows/desktops couldn’t? I hear what you are saying, and I agree with you now that you’ve said it, but I find it hard to believe that everyone clapping in that forum was thinking along those lines. Also, don’t you think that they could have thought of at least one really useful and unique feature to present this new’ish slant on the technology. I do look forward to seeing something more interesting.
“I do look forward to seeing something more interesting.” … and if there is a god it won’t look like last century’s Macromedia Flash attempts to make 3d useful.
“Software developers will soon have their chance to smoke what Sun Microsystems is rolling”? Come on Eugenia, that phrase was a bit off. I think it’s really great that Sun is doing this though.
“smoke what Sun Microsystems is rolling”
That’s the funniest way of talking about product testing I’ve ever heard.
🙂
> What I am more interested in is not what they have shown us
> it can do, but how can we take what it can do and make it
> useful.
Right, they are going to probably publish some kind of API.
Would that be ok or do you need the source code under GPL?
The problem is that you didn’t identify yourself as a developer and you can find such kind of knee-jerk reactions all over the place from mere End-Users – check /. or LT or NF,
There are people foaming at the mouth because MySQL gpl’ed something that should have been LGPL’ed.
Looks to me that today I can release 1millions lines of garbage but if I make a Press Release saying it’s GPL’ed, I get front page headlines. In the good old days, nobody cared if anything was GPL’ed or SCSL’ed or APSL’ed or CSL’ed….we just used to care if the program did what it said it would do.
As a disclaimer, I know nothing of UI design, but here’s a lay opinion:
It doesn’t matter whether it’s useful – it looks cool, and things that look cool sell. Provided it doesn’t hinder usability, I think it will add a dimension to linux that will get people talking, and wanting to use linux – just for the “cool” factor.
Matt
For the moment it doesn’t make much sense and that’s probably because application developpers need to get their heads round the new possibility and find what to do with it.
I certainly can imagine a much improved AltTab application switching, and multi document applications can also take advantage of the features to find new ways of switching between documents. And turning a document round to fill in the documents properties would be a lot more intuitive than going “file -> Properties”.
And as Matt says, it looks cool and there is nothing wrong with it. Just consider how much extra people are prepared to pay for a car or mobile phone or a cloth that looks cool rather than just functional and that’ll tell you lots about how important that it.
There’s about two whole frames per demo. Why don’t they put out some video. And for christsakes get rid of those horrible background pictures. Whatever theme they’re using for Mozilla in that first demo has to be the ugliest thing ever created. Oh yeah, but these are the people that created Swing, so no wonder.
Sun needs to clean this crap up and put out a video that will make people actually want to try this stuff.
That boring thing were you can add post-it notes on the back of your windows?
Wow, what a treat!
is lloking glass really somethink that sits on the top on the Xserver so that the Windowmanager is in 3D ?
As described in this article “The kit will basically help coders write 3-D Java applications”.
So, in fact, it’s like Java 3D, no ?
Does someone out there really know, what it is ?
It think we will have to wait on JavaOne.
Damn…!
Anyway, what’s even more interesting than Sun’s standard Java propaganda: the extensions that make all this 3D possible are in the process of being merged in the xorg tree. These extenstions are already available in the Xserver (aka keithp) packages; XFixes, XComposite and XDamage. Yes, Sun is actually using these extensions for Looking Glass!
As soon as the merge is complete Open Source developers and let their “imagination” loose. We’ll actually have the basic technology to produce much of the “Aqua” en “Aero” eye candy using hardware accellerated OpenGL very soon!!
-fooks
It dosent sit on top of X I think they changed the way X works so it is intergrated into X. At least thats what the developers her at my campus have been talking about.
Where did you read that ? can u give me a source of information ?
It’s a shame, but there has been so much fuzz about that project, that no one now really knows, what looking glass is. I remember reading somethere that it’s a programm written in java (!!!). If it’s somethink that will be merged in K. Packards XServer (Xorg? or XServer), than looking glass would be a collection of extension for XFree. And THAT would be nice!
Damn…!
Anyway, what’s even more interesting than Sun’s standard Java propaganda: the extensions that make all this 3D possible are in the process of being merged in the xorg tree. These extenstions are already available in the Xserver (aka keithp) packages; XFixes, XComposite and XDamage. Yes, Sun is actually using these extensions for Looking Glass!
As soon as the merge is complete Open Source developers and let their “imagination” loose. We’ll actually have the basic technology to produce much of the “Aqua” en “Aero” eye candy using hardware accellerated OpenGL very soon!!
-fooks
This at the end of the day is what is needed more for the desktop versions of linux, and is definately a sign of innovation instead of imitation.
Personally I think there is some really good ideas going into this… So to all the nay-sayers, stop whinging and start encouraging.
3D desktops are something that have inspired people for quite some time now, which isn’t bad by itself.. Eyecandy’s always fun, even I agree with that. But, I think this whole Looking Glass thing is a bit over-hyped. Sure, it’s a nice example of what is possible using the exciting, new Xdamage and Xcompsite extensions, but personally, I don’t think things like sticky notes on the backside of windows is going to increase productivity (I know this is a crude and completely ignorant example from my side, but it mostly applies to the other features of looking glass).
However, I do agree that it all is at least nifty enough to win some interested and potential-geeky persons over to ‘the dark side’. Hell, I’ll probably try it myself as well.. Or wait, maybe I’ll just read some GLX docs and create my own looking glass like thing. Can’t be THAT hard, can it? Hmm.. When’s looking glass gonna be released? *evil grin*
Looking glass would be good if it was optional. That’s the way these changes/innovations should make their way into popular use. Rather than be forced to use it, it becomes a choice. Looking glass is part of a product line so I don’t expect it to be GPL’ed which is fine, but hopefully it won’t burden the computer industry with patents.
Oh yeah, but these are the people that created Swing, so no wonder.
Sun and IBM created swing, on IBMs request, or atleast IBM was a major driver in wanting swing.
I’m glad it’s not a true 3d environment. All the of hokey corridor metaphors and desktop metaphors that are actual rendered office desks are silly. I’m glad looking glass is coming out because it’ll be the first openGL hardware rendered desktop on x86 that i’m aware of.
The 3d features like sticky noting the back of a windows don’t seem that impressive to me, but i’m glad there’s a openGL desktop on linux.
Maybe the KDE/Gnome wars will take a back seat to the Looking Glass/FD.O Xserver wars!!!
With the recent licensing agreement between Sun and Microsoft, does anybody see the potential for Looking Glass ending up in Longhorn?
“Just hear yourselves, you sound like a bunch of mad dogs foaming at the mouth about software licenses.”
Perhaps you would run any software neverminding the license or EULA but many people have become more apparant of the issues surrounding these 2 (and more).
When the project can be developed together with Sun Microsystems while others are allowed to contribute, other vendors are less dependant on Sun Microsystems.
This matters by default to me, and it matters even more because of OO.o.
[Another issue is Java itself on which it is dependant]
Well, I’ll be quite interested to see what Sun shows, and I’ll want to play with Looking Glass ..
But what I hope this gets us is another build of Croquet up for download. Oh great and merciful smalltalk gods, are yo listening ?
*giggle*
As Fooks stated, most of what makes looking glass possible is having applications draw to offscreen buffers and then having a separate app (compositing manager) assemble these buffers onto the screen. The 3D part is sexy, but isn’t actually that hard. Like Fooks, I’ll be interested to see what open source developers come up with when this is available to them. I think the hard part will be resisting the temptation to “abuse” 3D to the point of having a negative impact on useability. Still, it will be cool.
Right, they are going to probably publish some kind of API.
Would that be ok or do you need the source code under GPL?
Well, I would hope they publish an API. Having an API and having the source code released under the GPL are two completley different things, so I am not sure what you are getting at.
The problem is that you didn’t identify yourself as a developer and you can find such kind of knee-jerk reactions all over the place from mere End-Users – check /. or LT or NF,
The problem is I didn’t identify myself as a developer? Huh? From the post: “Unfortunately, as a developer, the license software is placed under directly impacts what I can do with that software.”
So when I said “as a developer” I wasn’t saying I was a developer? Again, what are you trying to say?
“Many people have reported that 3D interfaces don’t work well (don’t improve productivity). Second, what is the point of having a 3D interface that is not reald 3D. From what I saw in the videos, 3D is projected on a 2D surface.”
IMO it would be better to call these “perspective” interfaces, and reserve “3D” for interfaces that are really 3D, such as holographic or lenticular displays, or actual physical 3D interfaces using joysticks or similar.
The videos are here: http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.html
From the video – “Looking Glass sits on top of your Window Manager. You run it as separate software and your desktop gets 3D.”
Sounds like a basic WM override to me (and I actualy don’t see a reason why it couldn’t be standalone default WM for those who wan’t it). Which is the best solution for 3D implementation of desktop that can sit on every X implementation that supports lower extensions needed for it.
API – is mostly pointed towards developing 3D applications (sample with music CD-s) and not Looking Glass itself. Basically pointed at 3D realm inside 3D realm, which in developing sense could pose a problem.
License – We will see, GPL-LGPL would be THE nicest combination. But in the end I think that GPL-LGPL it will be, at least if Sun wants larger support from community. If not this project would just be sitting duck for anybody who wants to bash Sun.
Longhorn Version – Windows never published API of their WM (all solutions up ’till now are hacks that interferre with basic Windows). So I doubt it. Longhorn is gearing towards their own implementation (basing on the paper specs, there never was anything solid (3D to be) except AltTab in last LH preview).
I wish sun would encode the videos
with an open source/standard codec/container….
I ain’t downloading a quicktime video…..
nor a crappy realplayer one….
Some info from the XdevConf about Looking Glass
Looking Glass is a modified X server, plus a Java implementation of the 3D desktop stuff. As this is a highly experimental area, Java’s productivity is important.
There is ongoing work to free the source for Looking Glass ? management has to figure out the licensing.
Plan to add support for OpenGL capture, so OpenGL applications can run inside Looking Glass.
X server gets modified to render to a buffer. Display server loads the buffer as a texture map, and puts it on a 3D surface. Similarly, input events are redirected from X window coordinates into surface coordinates; events are snooped with the Xevie extension, which originally was designed for accessibility purposes.
Owen says, what happens with drag-and-drop? GTK+ must implement its own version of DIX’s XYToWindow() for DnD; if a compositor changes the stacking order, this is no longer going to work.
Room for improvement: render directly to a texture rather than a temporary pixmap; support 3D audio (Java supports that) so that applications with audio, which may not be in the center of the screen, sound in the right position in your ears.
People are already complaining about it being not “real” 3d. Whoopdy frickin doo! It’s still 1.000 X 10^200 times better looking than Windows. And, it will add yet another reason for people to start using Linux. Bring on the looking glass… watch Microsoft get fsck’d
even if they havnt shown anything to increase productivity, moving the desktop to 3D space has a hell of alot of potential. unfortunately, it wont realise half of it under the current ui methodologies we’ve got going right now in the industry.
i can only imagine the implecations of a 3D spatial desktop…
If you look at the specs in pdf.
http://freedesktop.org/Software/XDevConf/LG-Xdevconf.pdf
No need for core X to be modified: Looking glass interprets information trough GL (for which support is still not in Looking Glass) at display manager level. And since WM is the one that decides where in space window is, there’s no difference for handling coords in Gnome or KDE level. If They would like to handle this events, they should probably handle Lokking glass API and not invent their own. As long as they don’t handle these events they would get input based on what WM (interpreting from 3D to 2D) passed on them.
And there’s clearly specified Keith Packard Composite extension that renders window interior to buffer which is used for map of window. That would mean any future X implementation that’s based on freedesktop.org specs.
The problem is that you didn’t identify yourself as a developer and you can find such kind of knee-jerk reactions all over the place from mere End-Users
Funny, the only knee-jerk reaction I noticed was yours…
It is completely legitimate to enquire about the license for such a product.
Ah, well I just c&p’ed it from a blog. I have no clue how all this works, so I’ll just shake my head and agree.
Just hear yourselves, you sound like a bunch of mad dogs [foaming] at the mouth about software licenses.
You don’t have any idea what you’re talking about. Licenses are very important, and people need to be aware of what is what and why it is so. So called “mad dogs” speak without knowing a thing about what is important; they bark frantically about things they don’t understand.