Yesterday Apple released a security patch that addresses 15 issues, including a serious Kerberos vulnerability. The patch repairs issues in OS X versions going back to 10.2. The patch is available through Software Update, and an advisory can be found at Apple’s web site.
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=61798
“Important: This document describes updates and releases for September, 2003 (2003-09) and later, such as Mac OS X 10.2.8 and Mac OS X 10.3”
“This Security Update is available for the following system versions:
– Mac OS X 10.3.4
– Mac OS X 10.3.5
– Mac OS X Server 10.3.4
– Mac OS X Server 10.3.5
– Mac OS X 10.2.8
– Mac OS X Server 10.2.8”
running older os x? pay to upgrade to 10.2 to get security releases.
What you say is true, but I’m wondering what your point is. I mean, there are a lot of reasons why you wouldn’t be wanting to run 10.1 anymore, and the ability to get security updates is only one of them. I do think that $129 is a little steep for the point updates, and I’d prefer that they be more like $59, but I have been pleased with the new features in each release. Now what I was disappointed in was the quality of the first few versions of OSX, and I think that 10.1 should have been a free upgrade, to make up for the fact that 10.0 was pretty sucky, but that’s another issue.
Well, I don’t recall the specifics. But I got a free upgrade to 10.1 when it came out. Perhaps it was because I got a cube with 10.0 just close enough to the release date for 10.1 that I could be eligible to get a free upgrade.
But anyway, sure it would be nice for apple to provide security updates to 10.1 and 10.0. Regardless of how few people actually still run those systems, it’s still somewhat irresponsible for them not to do so.
About having to pay for “point upgrades”… Would it make it easier for you to shell out those 129$ if the release was called OS XI or OS XII instead of 10.3? It’s just a psycological thingie
These “point releases” as many people call them, bring enough features to be called “major operating system releases” but apple has thrown a lot of money into a marketing campaign around the “X” and “10” symbols and I don’t think it is going to get rid of them any time soon…
10.1 WAS a free upgrade for those who had purchased/were running 10.0.
10.2 they made everyone pay for.
“anonymous” – what a weird name.. ;P does not have a Mac.
If he had, he’d know that 10.0 and 10.1 are probably _completely_ extinct on this planet. There simply isn’t a reason to run them; and therefore the attitude not to provide security patches is quite allright imho.
As to Microsoft… they only support 98SE, if even that? At least, Win95 is definately extinct in their minds, although many PCs won’t probably run on other. As to OS X, 10.2 was faster than 10.1. And 10.3 likewise.. Well done, Apple!
-asko, who owns a mac since 10.1.
I justupdated my G4 iMac and the patch has screwed it up. The finder takes forever to Open and Safari just bounces in the dock then quits and nothing comes up. Mozilla still works. iChat starts but if I try to connect it quits. I have sent an e-mail to Apple but I reccomend people holding off on this update.
But I much prefer Apple’s incremental “release often” approach to development to Microsoft’s, which seems to be second system effect with each release. Apple is making *substantial* development headway, packing lots of features and improvements into each release, and Tiger looks to have many of the features that Longhorn will sport two years before Microsoft plans to release it.
So “whine whine I don’t have a Mac but I’m going to bitch about OS X upgrade prices” all you want, but to me that’s inconsequential compared to the features.
Mac OS X 10. was released on March 24th 2001 [1]. That’s the same year as Windows XP, which came out October 25th[2]. And 10.1 was released on Sept 29th, about the same time.
Yet the Apple operating systems are completely unsupported now. A mac user above stated that 10.0 and 10.1 are now completely extinct. I don’t think we should make judgements based on market share, or otherwise Apple users would never get any drivers. (Mac is almost extinct on this planet compared to Windows).
Also, asko cleverly referenced Windows 98, a Microsoft product released three years before OS X 10.0. I know for a fact that NT 4.0 is supported at least until the end of this year, and it was released in 1996.
Fact is, Apple has a poor track record of providing backwards support. APIs like Cocao are quite the exception, and due mostly to the lack of OS X available at launch date (and still only recently have many major apps been ported).
I personally find it disgusting that a company would treat their customers this way (and their abuse of the DMCA is also revolting, but that is another topic), and I for one will not be purchasing their products. Funny how my Windows XP disc, purchased three years ago is still completely supported and getting additional features[3] for free. I don’t expect any rational debate from the Apple crowd, but if someone has a rational rebuttal (non-flaming), I’ll listen.
[1]: http://arstechnica.com/reviews/01q2/macos-x-final/macos-x-1.html
[2]: http://windows.about.com/library/history/blhistory2001.htm
[3]: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/maintain/sp2c…
i just updated my late 2001 ibook, Dual MDD G4, two AGP G4s and two slot loading iMac G3s. no issues as of yet, they’ve been going all day without a hitch.
Ok, we get it already; You don’t like Macs or OS X. Now do you actually have anything constructive to say???
I suppose that XP now is leaps and dounds better than lets say 10.1 compared to 10.3 ? Any new apps included in SP2…which incidentally people are not upgrading to yet? By the time 10.4 comes out, another leap in the MacOS development stage, longhorn will STILL not be out for consumer use and XP will still have the same features more or less that it came with in 2001.
Microsoft makes me yawwwwwwn with its development cycle on this longhorn issue. IMO they have bitten off more than they can chew, just like apple did with Copland.
Apple LEARNED from its mistake and has developed a strategy to increase features in its OS on a step-by-step approach and do it well, not like copland way back when. Too bad MS did not learn from Apple’s mistake and they have fallen in the same trap.
Well, I am an apple fanatic (far various reasons) but I have to say I agree absolutely. You’re right.
There’s a lot of things Microsoft does which I consider to be either outright bad or merely distasteful, but their support for older versions of their OSs is excellent. Microsoft is, at heart, a business in the business of making businesses happy. Support for older versions of Windows is KEY to making business clients happy. End of story.
Apple simply doesn’t have the resources to keep more than two OS releases up to date. For Microsoft, this is absolutely no problem, but Apple cannot afford it. It’s a pity, and it certainly is one of the few advantages of Windows, but it won’t change until Apple becomes a much bigger company.
Fact is, Apple has a poor track record of providing backwards support.
Apple does have a history of poor backwards support, particularly since the introduction of Mac OS X. It’s true. However, people who like Apple products and Mac OS X pay the price for upgrades and retain support. It’s not necessarily rational, but not every reason for choosing a Mac is. (It has much to do with marketing and branding, but many people who post here have a hard time understanding why people would pay more for something when it’s possible they may be able to get a similar product for less. I gladly pay more for certain brands of clothing I happen to know are produced in the same facility where much cheaper brands are produced. Shoes, in particular, are a great example.) If you like the product and the company, you support them and they support you in return. I don’t know a single Mac OS X user who has less than 10.2 installed.
I don’t expect any rational debate from the Apple crowd, but if someone has a rational rebuttal (non-flaming), I’ll listen.
Perhaps that was not the intent, but that could very easily be perceived as a generalization and a flame itself.
Remember that 10.0 and 10.1 weren’t very functional; 10.0 had no easy CD burning capability, apart from burning music from iTunes. It’s entirely possible that these vulnerabilities don’t exist in 10.1 or 10.2.
FOR EXAMPLE: As I recall, the Kerberos support in 10.1 was pretty bad, and was upgraded in 10.2. I couldn’t even login to my school’s computer using the Finder in 10.1, whereas it’s a snap in 10.2,3.
I could be wrong, but it wouldn’t surprise me if this is the case.
It’s entirely possible that these vulnerabilities don’t exist in 10.1 or 10.2.
Having typed that, and having looked afterwards at Apple’s webpage, it looks like I was indeed wrong 🙂
So Anonymous, you don´t like Apple? Fine with me. But then don´t comment on Apple news. You never paid the upgrade price, you never had a system running OS X 10.0 or 10.1. This is the reason for me not to comment any Windows news, I never bought it and seldom use it. And just because you made a reference to three web sites does not make your comment any better. And btw it is the Carbon C-API, which was already available in older Mac OSs, and Cocoa represents the Objective-C-API, which was the main programming API for NeXT and now is for Mac OS X.
For upgraders:
in /usr/libexec is the ftpd located, just make a copy of before upgrading. After upgrading, restore the old binary file and your FTP service will work again. For strange rendering for certain web sites, just check them with the W3C validator and judge for yourself……
//As to Microsoft… they only support 98SE, if even that? At least, Win95 is definately extinct in their minds,//
Uh … Windows 95 is basically 10 FREAKING YEARS OLD.
Does Apple still support OS 7.6? No?
Your point? Wait there it is … flying out the window …
I must be one of those happy-go-lucky Mac G4 owners, because I can upgrade all day long and not suffer any noticable problems on my 466MHz G4 DA.
No crashes. No kernel panics. No glitchies. No buggies. Just smooooooth sailing all day… EVERY day.
Every update in Jaguar was fine. Point releases (i.e. 10.2.1 -> 10.2.2) or “full jump” (10.2 -> 10.2.8). Same with Panther.
I’ll tell ya, though… if I ever have about $700-$800 burinng a hole in my pocket, I’m selling my DA for about $500 and buying me a G5 iMac… they are SOOOO cool looking!
Moving from classic Mac OS to the new OS X
09-13-00 Mac OS X Beta ships on cd only—cost of $29…no free download.
03-24-01 OS X Ships (doesn’t ship on new macs until July)—cost of $129
09-25-01 Mac OS X 10.1 released—cost free, but $20 to have Apple ship it (no download available to upgrade) and some Apple retailers gave the cds away free
08-24-02 Mac OS X v10.2 (Jaguar) available—Cost of $129
10-24-03 Mac OS X 10.3 ships—cost of $129 (only $20 for Mac users that have bought brand new G5 machines.)
so 10.1 was free for some. others paid apple a shipping charge to have it sent out.
I’ll tell ya, though… if I ever have about $700-$800 burinng a hole in my pocket, I’m selling my DA for about $500 and buying me a G5 iMac… they are SOOOO cool looking!
This is one reason people buy Macs: resale value. Purchase price is definitely steeper than an x86 box, but we get a large portion of our investment back when it’s time to upgrade.
And it’s *always* time to upgrade. 😉
10-25-01: XP is released
09-09-02: Service Pack 1 released—cost free.
02-03-03: Service Pack 1a released—cost free.
08-06-04: Service Pack 2 released-free download or free cd mailed.
xp home or pro range in cost from $70 for cheapest oem or upgrade version of xp home to the full absolute highest retail price of xp pro of $299 (xp pro can also be had oem for as little as $130).
xp pro 64 bit beta is a free download right now as well:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/default.mspx
Updated my 12″ Powerbook when the updated was released, no issues as of late. Also I know my parents updated their eMac and brother his G5, again no issues as of late; my room mate also updated his 15″ iMac as well. I’m not saying there might not be an issue, just I haven’t encountered any yet relating to the update.
“Any new apps included in SP2”?
well yes.
new stuff since windows xp shipped
a couple of versions of windows movie maker up to version 2
a couple of versions of windows media player up to version 10
a new calculator (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=32b0d059-b… )
new versions of directx up to 9.0c
new updates and enhancements to internet explorer (pop up blocker etc)
new updates and enhancements to outlook express
an all new windows firewall
an all new windows security center
a whole slew of windows xp powertoys http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys….
new versions of windows messenger
tons of updates to things like remote desktop connection and all underlying apps etc.
if you want a complete list of what you can download free for xp go here:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/default.mspx
and
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/search.aspx?displaylang=en
lots of all new free applications? no
if you hadnt heard, ms gets sued a lot when they do that. apple can do it all they like and kill off their partners.
mac users do get the benefit of those free iapps when they buy a mac, though most of the functionality is either included in windows or is included free with a purchased pc that includes xp too.
then again not even the iapps are free anymore. newest is free with new mac. upgraders have to buy new os and pay
$49 for new ilife.
newest ilife requires:
Mac OS X v10.2.6 or later (Mac OS X v10.2.8 or later recommended)
http://www.apple.com/ilife/
Had no problems upgrading on my 20″ iMac G4
And for those who are talking with pride about being able to download Microsoft Service Pack releases without paying you are being ignorant in comparing them to upgrades between Jaguar and Panther. That’s like saying you should get a free upgrade between 2000 and XP. Now I understand you argument if you are pertaining to the minor updates between releases that are not available to older versions of OS X. That is true I will agree that Apple should have larger support for it’s older OS’s.
But one thing to note is since Apple knows that most of it’s OS X base are using 10.2 and higher they aren’t going to support a dead OS release. Apple stopped updating OS 9 somewhere mid release after OS X 10.2. It’s all about where there user base is. It makes no sense to support a dead OS version.
Microsoft is still supporting 98 and NT (for now) because they have a large corporate audience using these versions as well as a substantial home user base using these releases.
that os x only has 50% of the installed mac base
“But one thing to note is since Apple knows that most of it’s OS X base are using 10.2 and higher they aren’t going to support a dead OS release. Apple stopped updating OS 9 somewhere mid release after OS X 10.2. It’s all about where there user base is. It makes no sense to support a dead OS version.”
so that means 50% are still using pre os x.
of the 50% that do use os x, you can rest assure that many are not on the paid upgrade plan with apple and are still using os 10.04 or 10.1. what percentage, who knows.
ms to this day still releases updates to windows 95, 98, nt 4, and me, 2000, and xp. some are no longer under full support but ms still releases software and updates for them regarless. they still post help docs to their knowledge base as well.
ms policy is now 5 yrs support on consumer products and 10 yrs support on business products.
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2004/may04/05-25ExpandsCom…
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh%3Ben-us%3…
“Product Lifecycle Details
Length of Support:
Microsoft will offer a minimum of 10 years support (5 years of Mainstream support and 5 years of Extended) for most Business and Developer products.
Microsoft will offer a minimum of 5 years of Mainstream support for Consumer, Hardware, and Multimedia products.
Microsoft will offer a minimum of 3 years of Mainstream support for products that are released annually, for example, Money, Encarta, Picture It!, Streets & Trips, and the Microsoft Business Solutions products.
Mainstream support includes:
* Incident support (no-charge incident support, paid incident support, support charged on an hourly basis, support for warranty claims)
* Security update support
* The ability to request non-security hotfixes
Extended support includes:
* Paid support
* Security update support at no additional cost
* Non-security related hotfix support requires a separate Extended Hotfix Support contract to be purchased. Per-fix fees also apply.
* Microsoft will not accept requests for warranty support, design changes, or new features during the Extended support phase.
* Extended support is not available for Consumer, Hardware, Multimedia, and Business Solutions.
Self-help online support is available for a minimum of 10 years after the product is released. By using Microsoft’s online Knowledge Base articles, FAQs, troubleshooting tools, and other resources, many customers can quickly resolve their issues without contacting Microsoft directly.”
as we all know, support and extended warranties can be quite expensive. few people discuss this substantial value that ms provides to their consumers. you get a great of support from ms when you buy their products.
|Sorry for being of topics, please bear over with me.|
I was help a friend buying her new computer and we had a look at a beautiful iMac G4 (I think), but she asked me a question I didn’t know the answer for. (I only know Windows and Linux (KDE+Gnome))
And I qoute: “Can I use my Yahoo! Messenger and my webcam on that machine?”
She’s using ICQ, Yahoo Messenger and she can’t live without her webcam.
Just though I’d pass on the question to someone who knows.
PS.: I _WANT_ the new iMac G5, thats so cool. And as soon as Gentoo get their MacOSX portage-support out of alpha-stage, I wouldn’t be missing any software.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/messenger/download/mac.html
If this was Windows with 15 flaws right now, all of you would be down Microsoft’s throat. Instead, you all are acting like nothing has happened. Stop treating OS X like a damn baby, its just as worse as any other OS out there, so all of you get over it and accept the fact that OS X is an infested roach motel.
I think this is the part where you recommend Windows users to stay where they are.
Är du dansk?
>She’s using ICQ, Yahoo Messenger and she can’t live without her webcam.
ICQ works like a dream, but I don’t use it much.. Webcam may be a problem, the driver side on Logitech etc. was not there when I tried.
Have her look at the iSight and call me.. ;P
-ak
You must feel bad being here, I’m so sorry..
But -for me- OS X really has been a welcome “it just works” thing after 10 years with, yes, Windows. I waited, and waited, and they just never got it right.
Then I gave Linux two years or so.. Never got it properly installed.
For me, OS X is what Linux could be, with style and technical support. I’m so sorry if happy people make you feel bad. OS X is not perfect, but it is more so than the others.
-ak
> Är du dansk?
Jeps.
“so all of you get over it and accept the fact that OS X is an infested roach motel. ”
what are you talking about?
Please enlighten me.
Since I havent had any problems w/ any of the updates, maybe you could tell me what I am doing wrong.
Thank you.
Perhaps they should try a useability patch on the one button mouse; about time to upgrade to 2 buttons.
I use a 4-button trackball with OSX all the time: Logitech Mouseman. As a matter of fact, OSX will work with mice with at least 32 buttons. Exposé offers you the choice of 32 buttons to activate it. (Can’t remember the exact number, since I’m at my Linux box at the moment.)
“09-25-01 Mac OS X 10.1 released—cost free, but $20 to have Apple ship it (no download available to upgrade) and some Apple retailers gave the cds away free”
Sorry, Microsoft employer called anonymous, but Mac OS X 10.1 was released to download for free.
JohnOne, you are quite mistaken.
i bought the beta, i bought os x first release, and i got a copy of 10.1 free at a local circuit city when they were still selling imacs. our local circuit city ran out and i know people that paid to order the cd since apple did not provide a free download.
apple did not provide it as a free download at the time and i dont believe they do now either.
show me some proof. you are either just ignorant or intentionally lying.
I can’t believe that a stupid minor upgrade to Mac OS X is a significant enough event to start a flame war.
Don’t feed the trolls guys. We all know that anybody with a long bullet list of facts for (against) Mac OS X (Windows) is an anti Mac (Windows) troll.
What’s the point of arguing with an anonymous poster, anyway?
The fact that he makes every mac thread his is the definition of a troll, regardless of his “polite” style.
see what I mean?
Laughably crazy you are, dude.
copy and paste it went awry
meant to post just this on the second link:
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:i3sIneURfooJ:www.macdevcenter….
“If you live within driving distance of a authorized Mac dealer, you should be able to pick up the 10.1 upgrade package for free during the month of October (according to Steve Jobs at the Seybold keynote address). You can also order the upgrade through the Apple Store for USD$19.99.”
all of us are anonymous since we are on the net. jon d. tells us nothing.
get over the name issue. people know me just as easily by my address. saves me the time of typing more data.
i was never banned. if i am banned than why am i posting?
i post no differently than anyone else. only issue is some mac users dont like to have apple called to task for their, what they do wrong, any of the shortcomings, whatever.
i do not post lies.
i post accurate data that is easily verified by links i provide in nearly all of my posts.
interpret the data as you see fit and be informed.
that is what osnews is for.
if they wanted us to just read news stories, there would be no comment section that we are now using.
please grow up and debate the issues with experience, facts, data, etc.
these attacks on posters is rather childish.
only some of what i post is opinion.
cant debate opinion very well.
people say things like “but you cant use os x on that x86 hardware” means nothing.
inform us of why would we want to. tell us the benefits. enlighten us with detail and hard data of what os x really is and does.
that can be hashed about by tech savvy os news readers.
so that means 50% are still using pre os x.
of the 50% that do use os x, you can rest assure that many are not on the paid upgrade plan with apple and are still using os 10.04 or 10.1. what percentage, who knows.
I don’t know if your a mac user or not but the majority of the people that are running Pre OS X releases are doing this because their machine is NOT supported by OS X. I can assure you that the vast majority of people using OS X have a version 10.2 or higher. It’s not that people did not want to upgrade from 9 to X in all circumstances it was because it ran too slow on their systems or not at all. Of the people using OS X on older machines I can assure you that they aren’t sticking with the older slower builds of it.
posting endless price comparisons, posting lil data points about an OS 4 or 5 years ago that is nit picky, not germane to the topic, and the over all incessant negative tone and vibe you bring to these mac threads is what you are all about.
very pedantic and very boring.
“posting endless price comparisons, posting lil data points about an OS 4 or 5 years ago that is nit picky, not germane to the topic, and the over all incessant negative tone and vibe you bring to these mac threads is what you are all about.
very pedantic and very boring.”
thats what you believe. you dont have to assume that everyone agrees with your take on this.
others use price as heavily weighted measure in usage analysis.
others want to know the dirt along with the positives about the things we discuss on here.
stay on topic and discuss the material as it applies to the news story. if you are bored, do something else. preferably, write up something that applies to the data being discussed.
Your repeated reminders of this, on the other hand, are quite interesting.
ok you guys win.
mac threads are all yours.
Pricegrabber website r us.
10.0 was for early adopters, which means that Apple didn’t intend 10.0 to be bought by everyone, just the ones like me who were interested. There rest were to stay on OS 9.
10.1 was released (and free, even is Australia 😉 to fix a lot of problems that 10.0 had, but still was far from a polished product. OS 9 was still to be used by the Apple masses…
10.2 comes out. This guy is for everyone to start moving across from OS 9. 10.2 is where Apple considered OS X was to start. The early adopters got to see the evolution of a product, so know what amazing work went into 10.2, esp. if you got the Beta as well…
For me, Apple would be very silly to support anything less than 10.2, and most Apple users (not us here at OSNews, but “normal” users) would have paid $129 to get 10.2 and start there. Most of the Mac users I know started with 10.2.
OK, lets look at windows.
XP comes out. It is based on two OS’s, NT and 9x. 9x (95/98) is an older OS base wise, very much like OS 9. Imagine if OS X had bits of *nix, and bits of OS 9 in the core OS (not counting Classic which is really just an App).
What does this mean. It means that OS X is sitting on top of a nice clean OS, and can be upgraded now at will. Features can be added cleanly and with little fuss.
MS would love to have an OS right now like that. Well, actually they had/have it with NT. XP they merged 98 into the fold, so took something clean and cluttered it so home users could run all their old 9x code.
I don’t know too much about Longhorn, but it appears that MS would love to get back to something clean, like OS X, but can still run a lot of older code, but also new stuff (.Net etc) as well.
The trouble is, doing something like this takes a long time, and lots of resources. MS hadn’t upgraded XP too much over this time because Longhorn was originally slated for 2005 (maybe earlier), so there wasn’t that much reason to push XP too much, just enough. People were buying it in droves, so there was no problem.
Unfortunately, MS bit off too much. Apple did exactly the same thing with Copland. New OS (Copland/Longhorn), new language (Dylan/C#), new framework(OpenDoc/.Net). Not sure if Copland was to have a new FS but fairly sure it was, but MS is trying with WinFS, not to mention Avalon and so on…
What is MS doing now to rectify there schedule blowout? Putting some of these technologies into XP, Avalon will be one of the first to help take on Quartz/offerings emerging under Linux).
So what after all this is my point.
My point is that MS hasn’t been upgrading XP for a number of reasons.
1) The cluttered mess that is XP is so much harder to update than OS X. Example, removing GDI and implementing Quartz/Quartz Extreme like layer as they’re doing with Avalon isn’t that easy. OS X had that right from the word go.
2) Longhorn was always going to come out a lot sooner than it now is, so the focus was on that. SP2 took resources away from Longhorn (so we are told), so Redmond isn’t limitless with their resources.
3) Apple no longer is a “us” only house. They grab code from all over the place. This means that they can bring out product very quickly. MS used to be more like this, now they are creeping towards Apple’s older mentality.
So I have no problem with Apple supporting back to 10.2, that makes perfect sense when viewing the history of the OS.
MS supporting XP and older makes sense too. MS hasn’t done that much since, not as a released product, OK, 2003 came out, but I’m refering to Desktop OS’s here I guess 😉
I’m sure others will take issue, but remember, the update paths of these two companies right now are very very different. Apple can update quickly, and put lots of features into a release. MS is struggling to keep up right now. That may change with Longhorn, or an OS further down the track.
Just wanted to let you know that
I am a mac user (own 3 actually) and a windows box , just so you all know where I’m comming from…
And I have to sometimes agree with [email protected].
Macs tend to be a bit more over priced, and if you stick with OSX throughout all its versions (ie: upgrading from 10.0 to 10.1 to 10.2 to 10.3 and beyond yearly) is far more expensive than a simple windows xp purchase.
Fact of the matter is Macs are better at some things and windows boxes are better at others….I think we all pretty much know that.
As for anon – I for one value and respect your posts about about MAC v Linux V Windows price comparisons and they usually tend to be very accurate (usually a good deal throw in there to) Just wanted to let you know not everyone thinks you are boring. Keep up the good work.
I know of at least one system which is still running 10.1, and it is doubtful that it will be upgraded any time soon. You see, some people have priorities other than dumping a hundred and some buck on an OS upgrade every time some company tells them to.
Yes, Apple should be providing security updates for older versions of their OS. These are not feature upgrades. These are not even bug fixes (which they should provide anyway). These are to ensure the safety of the user’s data and other systems which it may be connected to.
others use price as heavily weighted measure in usage analysis.
And of course you are the only person to provide accurate price comparisons to the poor misguided Mac users.
stay on topic and discuss the material as it applies to the news story.
Since when was any of the recent Mac-related topics “Why Macs aren’t worth their money”? Because that seems to be all you are able to ‘discuss’.
And for what it’s worth: the recent security update installed without a hitch on my machine; a number of problems fixed are also present in Linux; and considering how much I pay for food alone, $129/year for a new OS release plus free updates is really just a drop in a bucket.
“And of course you are the only person to provide accurate price comparisons to the poor misguided Mac users.”
i see many people taking exception to the price of macs and their os. i see many folks mentioning prices in their posts.
mac users get very defensive about it however.
i likewise see many linux proponents talking about the same issues with regard to my preferred os, windows. hard for me to debate the free linux distros but i do it.
“Since when was any of the recent Mac-related topics “Why Macs aren’t worth their money”? Because that seems to be all you are able to ‘discuss’. ”
hmmm, well i dont seem to recall that price was the sole point of any mac stories of late but it certainly is a part of the discussion for many, not just me.
as it relates to this security update stuff, i have likewise seen complaints from many against ms for not making available for 98, 2k, etc, the ie 6 updates that are in svc pk 2 for xp.
my comment to that is that those oses do still get updates and some are still fully under support by ms. and time will tell whether all of the ie 6 fixes will be rolled out to older oses.
at bottom, i agree though, ie 6 should be patched in every way it can on any os that it runs on. if something about the fix is native only to xp i can understand that, but otherwise the fix should be given to win2k too….
The 9x codebase was not merged with the NT codebase in XP in the way you think. XP is pure NT kernel OS. The primary items that enhanced 9x application compatibility under XP (and 2000) was providing version parity with DirectX, and an application compatibility subsystem that allows you to maintain profiles of particular apps or app behaviors and do things like change the resolution on app execution or change what OS version is reported to the installer.
DOS compatibility was provided via emulation of the DOS environment (as in older NT versions) and redirecting DOS-style hardware access so things like audio will work in older apps,
Backward compatibility is also provided because apps developed for 9x were written for the Win32 subsystem which is also, and always has been, the main subsystem supported on NT. NT 4 and below also included OS/2 and POSIX subsystems.
XP and older versions of NT support pre-9x Windows apps through an emulation layer called WOW32 (Windows on Win32), 64-bit versions of Windows support 32-bit Windows apps through WOW64.
The only changes in MS’ roadmap for Longhorn is the down-level availability of Avalon and not shipping WinFS until it’s fully ready. This is much better than shipping an unfinished product and expecting people to pay soon after for a more polished version.
Come on, cut the crap. The day Apple makes 85% profit margins off their products THEN you can stand bitching and whining because Apple lacks backwards support.
Microsoft makes 85% margins off Windows, so I bloody well expect them to provide atleast 5 years of support! compare that to Apple which has an average profit margin of around 24.7%, Panther turned a profit this year of around $14.3million, so I’d hardly that Apple is raking in the cash each year in regards to MacOS Upgrades.
The fact remains, there are people like me who don’t *mind* paying AUS$229 for an upgrade to MacOS X, some of us aren’t living on skid row, some of us don’t live in mum and dads basement, surfing the net, posting flamebait and drinking copious amounts of mountain dew – some of us do actually have jobs and see the small price of $229 as a piss in the ocean in the grand sceme of things.
Also, Steve Jobs has already said that the rate of releases is going to slow down with Tiger being the first to sit outside the normal release frame, the one after that will be the same situation.
xp home or pro range in cost from $70 for cheapest oem or upgrade version of xp home to the full absolute highest retail price of xp pro of $299 (xp pro can also be had oem for as little as $130).
Purchasing an OEM version is in violation of the EULA. Anyone with half a brain would know that. No substaintial hardware purchase means YOUR OEM installation is in violation of the EULA.
Want to verify, ring up Microsoft – or are you like most Windows users, jumping onto the local crackz and warez search engine looking for ways to circumvent the activation process?
Funny how Apple has lower margins when most versions of Windows sold are cheaper than MacOS.
Most users get Windows via new PC purchases (average included Windows cost is about $50) or upgrades (most client (including full) versions (OEM, Retail, or Volume) can be acquired for less than to within $40 (on the high side) dollars of OS X).
Add to this the much lower cost of PCs and the much better support story/time between releases. Apple gets most of their hardware from contracted PC hardware manufacturers like ECS. With more expensive hardware and software, the major difference in their profits is their extremely small market.
You don’t like Apple Business Model? Fine. Go somewhere ELSE. You don’t want to pay 129 a year? Fine. Go somewhere ELSE.
You don’t like “unpowered hardware” ? Fine. Go somewhere ELSE.
You don’t like ppc’s? Fine. Go somewhere ELSE.
You don’t think ppc’s are better than i386? FINE… go somewhere ELSE…
I hope you get the point… if you don’t like it, move along. WHO CARES?
Do you? Nah, I don’t care. Do you care if I don’t like Windows or Linux? Possibly NOT AT ALL. I move along. Now YOU <hater/disliker of apple> move along.
now is THAT really HARD? We ought to learn some stuff here. You may disagree… you may express an opinion, you may even criticize… but BE constructive. Don’t compare. Explain why… if not.. move along. In the end.. I DON’T CARE. Ok?
NO ME IMPORTA, I DON’T CARE.
good… you’re seeing people’s point here…
I love this.. i REALLY love it.
10.0 beta $29, BUT the cost was subtracted from the cost of 10.0 release
10.1 just about every retailer around here had the CDs for free…
upgrades: ok, 10.2 was worthwhile, but face it most of the “features” are junk stuff(iCrapps), or ooo more recent version of open source software(not like I haven’t already built themselves if interested), or things that most people cannot use because of lack of req. hardware. (IMO trying to sucker customer to go in for a hw upgrade for the big bucks.)
IMO Apple does NOT do enough to support older revisions, which should include backports of libraries to at least 10.2 for the next 5yrs(e.g. Safari & co.), gcc/XCode, X11 etc. It’s not really all that difficult for them to do for many of these thing, esp. X11 which should almost be a simple automated build for a 10.2 target, Cocoa apps/libs may need a little more attention if non-backported “features” are used, but still not that troublesome.
Their upgrade prices are about $40 or so too high for annual releases. Other retailers MAY have it for ~$100 if you can find one, last I checked, but the lower prices are usually only right before another Apple point release.
One more bad point: games. IF they are ported to the mac usually come out a year or so after the Windows version, come with fewer features, lousy packaging(compared to the windows release), potentially poor porting, and generally a higher price tag. Apple REALLY needs to buy some porting houses and start cranking out the ports. I’d bet they’d get more mac purchasers, even to make it worthwhile for them to do this, if they did so.
Additional note:
Windows XP Pro student price $10
Office: $50
Visual Studio .NET: $20
(so call it $30 for XP Pro eq. to OSX)
OSX $69 and I have to order it from Apple or go to an Apple store (FREE clue Apple needs to re-examine it’s student pricing policy.)
Hence for my next system I’ll spend about $600 and build an x86-64 system to play around with and then evaluate the utility of another new mac purchase(see games comment above).
“Microsoft OEM OSs may be distributed with either a fully assembled computer system or a non-peripheral hardware component, defined as any hardware essential to running a computer. This includes memory, internal drives, mice, keyboards, power supplies, and internal devices.”
so any ms partner/retailer that sells oem windows xp just has to include a mouse. many include them in the price or sell for a $.01 up to a buck or two or five.
Most of us are familiar with oem and the legalities of the license. As a user you have no free phone support from either ms or a pc maker. for many that matters not at all.
so the prices stand and are legal. the same kind of low pricing is also available via volume licensing for any biz or organization that has more than 5 eligible ms licenses. that aint much…thats 3 pcs with windows and office.
likewise academic and non profit and charity pricing is even lower.
i see many folks mentioning prices in their posts.
So we definitely don’t need you to blow into the same horn. Unasked. All the friggin time (see your very first post in this thread).
mac users get very defensive about it however.
Look at how defensive you got when I hinted that you were underutilizing your computer. And that was just a single occurence (not that I actually expect you to learn anything from it).
Hey guys,
I installed this security update on my Mac, and so far I did not have any problems.
Has any of you experienced any? I hope this update was not breaking some compatibility with some application that I do not know of.
Anyway, it’s working fine.
See?
How easily, or is it conviently, the Mac trolls forget that XP Pro cost $300 when it came out (home $200), yet complain about $129 for OS X.
you just dont know what fits my usage needs
standard large case to hold lots of hard drives
fast video card for gaming
tv tuner for what it does
top sound card as sound is key for me and i needed live drive ports for connection to my stereo system
lotsa hard drives for music and video storage
motherboard with lotsa busses for connecting all those hard drives and optical drives
card reader for my camera card
floppy for legacy use
fast cpu for gaming
not one thing is out of line or inappropriate for what i use the machine for.
one doesnt need to run avid, or adobe, or discreet, or steinberg, etc apps to utilize a midrange pc.
when that pc was purchased it was not the best and isnt the best now either of course. its not the highest end by many measures and by many dollars as well.
so for you to think its not used appropriately simply because it has lots of horsepower yet costs as much as a consumer imac, doesnt make sense.
as for
“So we definitely don’t need you to blow into the same horn. Unasked.”
do you decide what this board needs? are we all to wait here until you ask for our thoughts?
very odd indeed.
“How easily, or is it conviently, the Mac trolls forget that XP Pro cost $300 when it came out (home $200), yet complain about $129 for OS X.”
yes at full retail. only for someone building a new pc from scratch. needing a full os to install on a non upgraded pc.
upgrade prices were $99 for home and $199 for pro for those installing on top of an older windows os.
bundled with a pc, home is no additional cost for those that bought new pcs after release.
bundled with pc, pro is about a $60 to $100 premium (depending on who you buy from) for those that bought with new pcs after release.
and again….
oem licenses for those that dont need full retail product support (which amounts to some free phone support) is about $70 for home. pro is about $130.
and yet again, windows volume licensing is even less expensive.
upgrade prices were $99 for home and $199 for pro for those installing on top of an older windows os.
MacOS X 10.3 upgrade discs cost $70.
http://www.megamacs.com/v1/?action=view&pid=75203
Code: panther-oem
Price:$77.77
http://mac-pro.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=MP…
The academic and corporate discounts are cheaper. I got mine for $20.
and yet again, windows volume licensing is even less expensive.
MacOS X 5 license version is $199. $20 a license
Give it a rest.
Ok, we all know how much of a Troll you are on these Mac threads, but I”ll bite anyway.
[quote]if you hadnt heard, ms gets sued a lot when they do that. apple can do it all they like and kill off their partners.
mac users do get the benefit of those free iapps when they buy a mac, though most of the functionality is either included in windows or is included free with a purchased pc that includes xp too.[/quote]
MS got sued because their browser can’t be separated from the OS. If you want to remove safari on OSX, you just drag it to the trashcan and it’s gone.
Now, there have been 2 Mac threads with a lot of posts in the last 2 days and I’ve seen you start a bitchfest in both of them. What’s the deal? We know you prefer an other OS to OSX, we understand you clearly enough. I just don’t see why you have to keep refuting every single thing that people say in this thread.
Some people like Macs and OSX, get over it, you can’t change that. You seem to have made it your lifes quest to convert every single OSX user to another OS. If people are happy with Apple hardware and the OS that comes with it and they are willing to pay some more $$ for it, then fine, so be it. Linux enthousiasts keep yelling ‘IT’S ALL ABOUT CHOICE!!!!’. Guess whay, some people *choose* to use OSX.
This article is about the new OSX security update, yet you immediately had to start bitching about OS update prices. This security update is free, so I see no reason to start flapping your yapper about the 10.3 update costing $129. If you would be posting about how the security update screwed up some of your machines, then I’d understand. But as things are now you just like to kick around a lot of dust and make a lot of noise.
To the moderators/webmasters of osnews: I’ve had comments chucked into the moderated down section for much less than the stuff this .chvlva.adelphia.net has been spewing.
You can claim that you’re just stating facts, posting links and that having a discussion, but all your remarks and rants are about how bad and overpriced OSX is. In this thread it hasn’t even been about the content of the news article (a security update). You blasted of by posting how overpriced you thought the updates were.
Here’s a newsflash: my debian updates and upgrades are all free (except for the bandwidth and time I put into them)!!! So I guess Linux must be better than Windows too, eh?
I’m amazed at the amount of zealotry you’ve been portraying in these Mac threads. Yes, zealotry, cause that’s all it is.
For the record: I have 1 laptop running debian unstable, 2 servers running debian testing, 1 desktop running XP SP2 and an ibook running OSX 10.3.5. The OSX machine is without the latest security update, since I was coming here to see what peoples experiences were with it. Unfortunately for me, I had to weed through 60% useless cruft, mainly by you. It’s degrading my browsing experience on this site. The OSnews editors can mark that one up as a complaint.
Back on track, at work I use Linux as my desktop OS and on the servers. We have a mixed Linux/Windows environment and people can freely choose the OS they want to use on their desktop, so I have some experience with using multiple OS’s. Strangely enough, you don’t see me spewing my shit all over the threads on this site? (except for this post of course, which I personally find rather justified).
I would have mailed this to you personally, unfortunately you’d rather hide, stating ‘it’s the net, we’re all anonymous’. If you had provided a means to contact you, either email or a website, I would’ve had some more respect and understanding.
Just my 2 eurocents.
>>The OSX machine is without the latest security update, since I was coming here to see what peoples experiences were with it.
The update worked fine here on my Rev A G4 iBook 14″ and my Rev B PowerMac G5.
Works fine on mine – iBook G4 930Mhz
Works fine here on a Rev B Powerbook 12″
Apple hardware isn’t more expensive than equivalent PC systems. Spec out a 12.1″ laptop with a DVD-RW drive and a non-integrated video card. Then go compare that with either a 12″ Powerbook or 12″ iBook (doesn’t have DVD-RW).
I did. The Powerbooks ended up looking really cheap. They were even more attractive after the student discount.
Sometimes I wonder if all those who post about Apple pricing actually have jobs, I mean it’s not as if the money being talked about is huge; if you are earning chicken feed then by all means don’t buy it, but don’t whine about your poverty – talk to your employer, charge more, do something other than come here and tell us how impoverished you are.
“The OSX machine is without the latest security update, since I was coming here to see what peoples experiences were with it. ”
As I stated earlier, although most likely lost in the cruft of the troll, the patched worked fine on my room mate’s iMac, my family’s eMac/PowerMac G5, and fine on my 12″ RevC Powerbook. I’ll find out in the next few days if a family friend’s iBook had an problems or not, I’m doubtful it’ll have any issues.
Re: Mac pricing
On the issue of pricing, I agree
Difference is small if any and sometimes there is more bang for your buck buying a mac than a pc. It all depends on who you buy it from and what not.
For your post, Thanks.
Regarding the update, this REV. B PB 15”, 1.3.5 have had no problems whatsoever.
😉
do you decide what this board needs? are we all to wait here until you ask for our thoughts?
very odd indeed.
Have you sought help for your problems of self-esteem?
I think you’ve said enough as well on this subject (seems a lot of people feel that way), why not find a subject you’re actually interested in, in a positive way, and contribute? Attempting to rile up and then ‘beat’ people on a message-board like this is kind of a dull pass-time no?
To get back to topic – this works fine on my machine iBook 1000MHz, however certain sites like fedex.com are reported as causing problems.
Hey Anonomous, you sidestepped my challenge in another thread.
Show me a sub $3000.00 computer,(other than a Mac), using Power architecture.
Show me any computer using PPC, that costs less than a Mac.
Show me a consumer level X86 box, that does not become more expensive, when you put an IBM HD in it.
Build me a PPC computer from scratch for $500.00 – $1500.00, using new parts.
Show me reliable evidence, that a higher processor speed or lower price, equals a faster or better computer.
Prove to me, that Mhz for Mhz, X86 is a superior, (not more popular), platform than PPC.
I DARE YOU!
I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU!
I actually got Jaguar (10.2) for free, just because Apple Australia decided they would give away copies to teachers.
And I didn’t even have a computer that would run it at the time!
UDs, no problems, Xserves to G4 desktops to Powerbooks to etc.
Do your maintenance and stop installing the latest gadgets.
http://www.sciencequest.org/support/computers/mac/
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=Mac+maintenance&spell…
When will you people learn … Quit Feeding the Trolls, a little self control please.
No Problems, Just Solutions.
http://mac-hints-tips.com/
http://subnetcalc.free.fr/
hey , do you know frederico from sciencequest?
Whats he up to?
>Show me reliable evidence, that a higher processor speed or
>lower price, equals a faster or better computer.
I am sure someone else can link you so some “reliable evidence.” But, being faster for your dollar, a MAC is not. If your buying a mac thinking your getting a faster computer then what you would of got for a PC, then your wrong.
However you do not buy a MAC for speed but for the debatable “better computer” (some people just like Mac Os X)
Hey Nobody, you sidestepped my challenge in another thread.
Show me a sub $3000.00 Mac,(other than a used Mac), that has at least 1GB ram standard.
Show me any computer using x86, that is as overpriced as a Mac.
Show me a consumer level G5 tower, that can hold more than two IBM hard drives.
Build me a Newton from scratch for $500.00 – $1500.00, using new parts.
Show me reliable evidence, that a slower processor speed or higher price, equals a slower or weaker computer.
Prove to me, that Mhz for Mhz, Mac is a superior, (not less popular), platform than x86.
I DARE YOU!
I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU!
PS- and while you are at it, prove to us all that Apple isn’t shipping a dual 2.5Ghz G5 tower filled with two overclocked, liquid cooled 2.0 or 2.2Ghz G5 cpus.
What’s the point of all this Mac trolling? Cool you don’t like Mac, does it hurt you if other people do? Have you ever considered getting a life? Over the last 10 years I’ve use nothing but Linux, BSD, Mac OS X, and all of these OSes have had trolls attacking them with similar arguments, at least the Apple is too expensive thing is a little original, but what the hell is the point?
Have you ever considered getting a life?
And for the third time, have you ever considered getting a life?
I seem to remember something about the special olympics and IRC, I think that fits very well here too.
I must say I’m suprised when people say an apple upgrade has broken an app or another. I have always installed every update as and when it was available without any problems ever ( touch wood!).
With regards to all these apple bashers. I don’t get it. I really don’t. I can’t stand windows but I have never gone on a windows thread and made a point out of it. Linux doenst cut it (maybe when there is airport support / and easy firewire boot I’ll start playing with it again).
I pay more and I am happy to do so as long as the utility value gained justifies the expense. For the past seventeen years it has (though there was a brief period ’bout 8 years ago when I considered switchting). We all use windows, most of us have used Linux, before you go bashing apple at least try the product for something more than 20 minutes before you criticise. Not being able to afford it is hardly a good reason to bash it.
Works fine on mine – 12-inch iBook G4/800
“PS- and while you are at it, prove to us all that Apple isn’t shipping a dual 2.5Ghz G5 tower filled with two overclocked, liquid cooled 2.0 or 2.2Ghz G5 cpus.”
IBM says these processors isn’t overclocked.
You don’t like Apple, ok, but don’t you like IBM, too?
“IBM says these processors isn’t overclocked.”
IBM says these processors AREN’T overclocked.
Sorry, I’m very tired.
Quit pasting text from other web sites.
Do you have no self respect?
Worked fine no problems with PB 17″ G4 1.5 (I dont know the revisions just did the “switch” from PC to Apple)
Still have 3 PC running XP, 2K, Slackware and a wireless hub for my new PB. I must say the Apple OSX is far better than any other OS out there…
BTW I sell computers for a living.
If people are complaining about the price of upgrades I dont really know much… however looking at all the new features one will get in 10.4 its really worth the price they give. Heck WindowsXP never releases anything other than bug/security fixes and minior updates for system apps. Apple actually adds new apps and really nice features to the OS. I cant wait for the new spotlight feature.
Also I was reading the Safari Changelog that was posted to the Konquor team by apple. To say that its an easy port to take existing software ya gotta be kidding me. Read the changelogs and see how much work and changes they have made in KHTML and the rendering. BTW I am also a Computer software engineer UofT.
Well, I just updated my 12″ ibook G3 800MHz and I had no problems. Thanks for to everyone who posted their experiences with this.