Windows XP SP2 is 99% great, but the 1% that isn’t turns a gift into a bomb. If Microsoft wants to win hearts and pocketbooks, then the product teams need to relearn how to treat customers with respect. With minimal effort, Microsoft could show paying customers that they are valued partners, rather than adversaries. Karsten Schneider writes about his experience with SP2, and his ideas of what it would take to turn a rock into rocks!
I have similar good experience with Fedora and Mandrake.
The problem is, that when windows users think of good out of the box expererience they think of preinstalled windows that came with the box. It really doesn’t matter how well Linux distros install on some certain hardware, it will always harder to install than have it allready done for you.
Most windows user them never install windows. In fact most of them wouldn’t know how to.
This is why we hear all this whining when Microsoft released a long needed service pack. True, the functionality of sp2 should have been in XP from day one, but better late than never.
karsten: $50 is not a major portion of the cost for any computer.
The argument was made that Microsoft must assume that customers want there product, and they are heading in the right direction with there development because people buy there software. My question is out of there sales for windows, how much of it comes from computers already bundled with windows on it. I would venture to say a fair amount considering most people i know just buy their computers from best buy or some other big name store. And when the computer gets outdated most users dont upgrade the os they will buy a new one every couple of years with the low end pc’s costing so little. Big companies may update pc’s to the new windows to save money. Most people, however, are never going to install and operating system in the time they use computers. They will buy and install things like Office but not an operating system such as windows. For all most users know their computer is windows. If it had linux, linux would be the computer. For people like us that know computers, the computer is like a technological friend. For most its a tool and they dont care what is running on it as long as it works.
If you want an out of the box experience that is only the beginning, get a mac. From opening the box to running the gear or wares it rocks! Now if only users would take note and buy what is by far the best computer experience out there.
Linux is perfect. I have yet to find a distribution that has anything wrong with it and am certain I never will.
I objected to having to apply to Microsoft for permission to continue to use my (no, their) copy of XP every time I built a replacement computer or installed a new hard disk. So I moved to Linux (which is perfect in every respect).
Were I still running XP, I would chafe at exactly the same irritations described by the author. License agreements, reboots, having to sit by whilst SP2 installs itself. I agree that Microsoft could and should treat their customers better, because if they don’t, customers will, if they possibly can, go else where. Like I did, to the nirvana of LinuxLand.
XP is OK. I spent over $100 on it and it still does not belong to me. I am grateful for their efforts to correct the mistakes they made in giving me, free of charge, a large download that requires me to agree to lots of legalese and makes me feel, as the author says, that XP is all about them and not about me, the customer, at all. But, hey, the author is obviously a jerk, so who cares?
XP? Quite good, really. Just glad I don’t have to use it. Linux? Woo Hoo!
Mind you, that OS X sounds OK.
Nice try with the “no-name” hardware argument, but you know as well as everybody else that mainstream wireless cards as well as other mainstream peripherals typically don’t work out of the box.
If Linux is the key competitor, then competing on price (TCO) alone is a dead end, especially when the other product is essentially free.
Linux isn’t even close to being a competitor to windows on the home desktop.
Linux is perfect. I have yet to find a distribution that has anything wrong with it and am certain I never will.
Hehe, are you serious or making fun of the fanboys?
Only the biggest OEMs can get Windows that cheaply. Most companies that aren’t Dell or HP pay something between $50 and $100. For a sub-$500 computer, even $50 is 10% of the cost of the machine. In practical terms, that’s 512MB of RAM, 120GB of disk-space (from a 60GB drive to a 180GB drive), or an upgrade from embedded graphics to a Radeon 9550.
Nice try with the “no-name” hardware argument, but you know as well as everybody else that mainstream wireless cards as well as other mainstream peripherals typically don’t work out of the box.
My Netgear MA401 doesn’t qualify as “mainstream”? My Philips webcam isn’t “mainstream”? How ’bout my Epson 610U scanner? Or my Wingman Warrior joypad? My Sidewinder Precision Pro? My iPod? My Epson printer? My Canon i850 Printer?
Like I said: treat it like a Mac (spend 30 seconds to check the HCLs before buying something), and your out-of-box experience will be just fine. I mean seriously, you don’t see Mac folks blame Apple about “out of box” experience when they can’t plug in a particular random gizmo, do you?
> i.e., through the distro’s packaging system
Which means a software distributor to be ‘friendly’ has to target how many different distro’s to get what is supposed to be one operating system?!?
Oh, I’m sorry, our product targets fedora core 1, RH 6 and 7 you’re using 2 – you’re out of luck – unless you want to compile it yourself – which may or may not work.
It’s not bad enough you have this with apps, but device drivers too. Worse, and a major annoyance is the concept of a minor kernel patch breaking binary compatability.
Whatever.
“Linux isn’t even close to being a competitor to windows on the home desktop”
Care to back that up with anything? Sure, there are quite a few places where Linux lacks a lot of polish. But at the same time, Windows has a bunch of similar ones – security being a big festering hole.
If I chose an operating system for my grandparents, who have to have everything explained to them in simple steps anyway (so ‘ease of use’ isn’t really a big draw), I’d go Mandrake or something similar. Sure, it’s not as good in a lot of ways – but then again, they don’t get done over by Sasser as soon as I’m not around.
Anyway, I think the author is seriously onto something. I feel like a rebel when using Windows now – having just built my sister’s machine, and turned off Automatic Updates, I was told I couldn’t access Windows Update. Um, bollocks. They just want to force me to turn it on – but for my sister, who’s on dial-up, and knows little about computers, I am NOT letting the thing try to install SP2.
Or, for another example, Dad uses GPRS to connect pretty frequently. Which is fairly quick compared to dial-up, so updates stream in pretty fast – at a cost of $1/MB. Yes, he really wants to pay $70 to update the operating system he bought.
The author is totally right about license agreements – you shouldn’t have to agree to a license for *any* updates. The original license says what you can and can’t do with it; they don’t need to add to that for every update.
I read an interesting point recently: The license agreements to SP2 etc may have very little legal strength. You basically have to get them, Microsoft gives you little choice and the OS is so hopelessly insecure you have to take what you can get. That’s called “duress”, and anything signed under it often isn’t legally binding.
“I’m sorry, just because a company decides that they want to change their licensing terms, and VERY VERY slightly, does not make them bad.”
The issue is not how big the change is but the fact there *was* a change. Principle you see, heard of that?
“You are not forced to accept the terms either.”
Of course I’m not – I could chose to continue running windows, complete with bugs and security holes and the whole shebang. Nice option don’t you think?
“you don’t like it, don’t install it.”
Don’t worry, I didn’t. Windows is officially abolished here, due to many of the points the author made.
it got modded down coz your full of shit, repeat the same thing time after time, and you’re the very definition of an asshole…
My Netgear MA401 doesn’t qualify as “mainstream”? My Philips webcam isn’t “mainstream”? How ’bout my Epson 610U scanner? Or my Wingman Warrior joypad? My Sidewinder Precision Pro? My iPod? My Epson printer? My Canon i850 Printer?
Like I said: treat it like a Mac (spend 30 seconds to check the HCLs before buying something), and your out-of-box experience will be just fine. I mean seriously, you don’t see Mac folks blame Apple about “out of box” experience when they can’t plug in a particular random gizmo, do you?
You really put your foot in your mouth on that post.
First off, my Linksys wireless card with the realtek 8180 chipset is very mainstream and there’s no distro that will set it up on installation. In fact, you have to use NDIS wrapper or the other wrapper to get it work on kernel 2.6 (last time I checked). Of course if realtek would just open up the register-level specs for the chipset (which they should) then we wouldn’t have that problem, but we’re talking about “out of the box” experience. Don’t tell me to go look at some hardware compatibility list when we’re talking about ‘out of the box” experience.
“Linux isn’t even close to being a competitor to windows on the home desktop”
Care to back that up with anything?
Yeah, the market numbers prove it. Linux competes with Mac at between 2 and 3 percent market share. That isn’t competition with windows.
Fair point – I’d assumed you meant technically rather than on market share. Yeah, the Linux market share is small. This is a Good Thing for me; means viruses all target someone else 🙂
You’re right about the out of box experience not being too hot; I think Rayiner’s being a bit unfair comparing it to a Mac though. With a Mac, you’ve paid to have all the hardware and software controlled by Apple; this just about guarantees that everything will work together. This is not something Linux can compete on.
“Yeah, but at least we don’t have to pay $99 every eight months for patches masquerading as a new version of the OS. Have fun buying Tiger in what, a month or two?”
Ooh, nice comeback, Dork Shadow. Don’t be so jealous of Mac superiority.
<em>”Linux isn’t even close to being a competitor to windows on the home desktop”
Care to back that up with anything?
Yeah, the market numbers prove it. Linux competes with Mac at between 2 and 3 percent market share. That isn’t competition with windows.</em>
According to the MIT Technology Review, Linux has surpassed Apple’s share of the desktop market.
Page 53 paragraph 2:
“Over the last 3 years, the fraction of home and office PCs powered by Linux has roughly doubled, to almost 3 percent, and it’s set to double again before the end of 2005, according to the market research firm IDC. Linux’s market share has already surpassed Apple’s”
You’re right, I’ve heard the same numbers. I think his point though was really that Linux’s market share is similar to Apple’s, and not similar to Microsoft’s 95%.
On the bright side, Microsoft only has one way to go from there – whereas Linux is still heading up. And every disgruntled user, like Karsten, narrows that gap slightly. Come 2018, they’ll be competing 😀
Good, that is EXACTLY my point… Quit bitching about things that just flat out are NOT true.
First off, my Linksys wireless card with the realtek 8180 chipset is very mainstream and there’s no distro that will set it up on installation.
My Atmel USB dongle won’t work on WinXP “out of box” and the drivers don’t install properly on XP. What’s your point?
Don’t tell me to go look at some hardware compatibility list when we’re talking about ‘out of the box” experience.
Look at it this way: I think Macs have a good out-of-box experience. Yet, Mac users still have to be careful about what hardware they buy. This is the same situation as Linux. If you agree that Macs have good out-of-box experience, then I don’t see how you can find Linux to be any different. If you don’t agree that Macs have good out-of-box experience, well, I don’t think that many people will agree with you. I don’t think you can say that having to consult an HCL compromises out-of-box experience. It might for people who install an OS on a whim, over the weekend, but I don’t think it’s a problem for those who actually use Linux.
Nice points! I like your thinking.
I love the Mac OOBE. I don’t personally own one, but I really like it.
If I had to pick between Microsoft Windows and my SuSE system, I’d have to go with SuSE. Windows make an annoying icon ask me questions that should have been settled during the install (Unless it’s an OEM, then it’s acceptable). I am sick of that question-mark thing. It gets on my nerves just like the Office Clip.
SuSE just gave my a welcome, and advised me to update.
Most of the benchmarking of new hardware is done on windows.
I have allways deliberately choked my hardware buying pace.
This way by lacking a few years behind there will be only a few Linux distro’s who will not support my hardware.
I would never build a bleeding edge gaming rig and install linux on it.Then again i would never go with windows online
unless i really have to.
“Spyware, Adware, Viruses and BSOD? What Spyware, Adware, Viruses and BSOD! I use Linux!”
Give a car to a drunk and you’re bound to see a crash. Give a PC to an idiot and you’re bound to see it full of spyware and viruses.
How come I never get any spyware or viruses on any of my XP machines? I must have a magical device that tells me what is safe and what’s not… oh wait, I do, it’s called a brain!
hhehee.
but they have a bug tracker now! that means they’ll fix it tomorrow!
😉
“Wireless is a pain in the ass. I have an old Cisco Aironet wireless card. Cisco even provides the drivers.”
A good rule when using Linux – if there’s an open-source driver in the kernel, and a binary driver provided by the manufaturer, always use the open source kernel driver. http://airo-linux.sourceforge.net/ is the homepage of the open source driver for that card that’s been around a long time and AFAIK works perfectly well. Most distros should include it and use it for the card by default, if I were you I’d use that.
I don’t agree with your “market” comment either. Wireless is very popular with Linux users (source: my experience helping people in Mandrake’s IRC channel – just about every new user has a wireless card these days). The market in that case should be at least as big as for Mac, and many vendors write drivers for the Mac…
oh, yes, it is. there are boxes in wal-mart for under $300 these days. $50 is nearly 20% of that price.
as I mentioned above, 802.11b cards do. Some g cards (prism2.5 based ones in particular) will, some won’t. This isn’t helped by the manufacturers doing such stunningly helpful things as distributing cards with the *exact same model name* based on *completely different chips* (yes, they really do this). Pretty much all name-brand cards can be made to work at the worst using ndiswrapper, nowadays. Some distros now package it, but obviously don’t package the Windows driver itself.
no, not at all. you don’t really get the concept, do you? you don’t package the software for three hundred different distros. You make a tarball, and the distributors each package it for their own distribution. Your users install the package provided by their distributor. Simple, isn’t it?
No, numbers don’t prove anything. Can you confidently assert that if it were Linux that were provided on 99% of the world’s computers, and people had to purchase (or pirate) Windows and install it themselves, that the market share numbers would be the same? Can you confidently assert that if computers were supplied with no operating system, and users had to choose between Windows and Linux, that the numbers would be the same? I don’t believe that you or anyone can.
I’m fully aware that some prism-based chipsets do have open source drivers and I’m fully aware that cards with the same brand number will sometimes have different chipsets. It turned out my linksys card has a realtek 8180 chipset when I thought it would have a prism-based chipset. If I had investigated more I would have found out that my Linksys v.4 did not have the v.3 prism-based chipset but I was sick of dicking around on the web doing research. In any case, we’re talking about “out of the box” experience for joe-average consumer and wireless cards are typically not good “out of the box” experiences on linux.
No, numbers don’t prove anything.
Are you going to sit here and tell me that Linux has more than 3% of the desktop market right now? You’re living in a fantasy, advocacy world if you do.
Did your USB dongle have drivers on the CD that was provided for it? Did it have linux drivers on the CD? The Mac people go to the store and see if it has Mac compatibility on the back of the box.
We’re talking about “out of the box” experience here. When was the last time you saw “linux supported” on some random box at Best Buy?
The fact of the matter is that until Linux hits that magic percentage of market share for the desktop consumer and the linux kernel developers develop a stable binary driver model, then there will be no good “out of the box” experience on the linux except for us osnews.com people that know what we’re doing. Manufacturers just aren’t going to supply the drivers on the CD.
why don’t you read (and quote) the *rest* of that sentence instead of taking it out of context? I’d say that’s probably an accurate figure. My point was that figure says very little about the relative quality of Windows and Linux. My reasoning was adequately explained in the previous post.
oh, and actually, you’ll see Linux listed on a surprising amount of hardware boxes. Manufacturers like things they can put in checkboxes – the more impressive looking features with ticks next to them on the box, the better the product looks to the consumer. So they like to put “Linux” on the box and tick it off even if they know 99% of the people who buy PC parts at Best Buy don’t run linux. It just looks good. You’ll see Linux listed in the supported OS list or a little penguin on the box somewhere…last time I went to buy a cheap NIC it had a penguin on the back of the box.
oh, and btw, what is this “magic percentage” of yours? We’ve already established (let’s put this approximately so as not to inflame the debate again) that Linux and MacOS X have approximately the same desktop market share. You assert that Mac users have adequate hardware support. So why should Linux require more market share than Mac to get the same level of support?
What’s needed from Apt/Yum, technically, is a friendlier interface to adding repositories (eg: a browser plug-in that would let the user click on a special link to add a repository), and better versioning so third-party repositories are held at a lower priority than main repositories.
Synaptic is a good GUI apt that supports the feature you described above.