Jef Raskin was one of the creators of the Mac and invented the click-and-drag interface. Click for his interview.
Jef Raskin talks to the Guardian’s Jason Walsh
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
My original vision is outdated and irrelevant.
It takes a very smart man to keep his ideas evolving as the world around him evolves.
It takes a very smart man to keep his ideas evolving as the world around him evolves.
I’d say that it takes a stupid man not to.
When genuflecting to Jef, keep in mind that his “vision” of the Macintosh was completely ignored by the time the Macintosh was actually seen by anyone. For example, he was strongly opposed to the whole idea of the mouse…
Poor bitter jef(f). Sad case really
[i]For example, he was strongly opposed to the whole idea of the mouse…</i?
Maybe, but he wasn’t against pointing devices such as trackballs, just the mouse which he considered clumsy.
I think you need to read that quote in its whole context.
How do you rate today’s Mac user interface?
My original vision is outdated and irrelevant. The principles of putting people first, and designing from the interface to the software and hardware, are as vital today as they were then.
To me, what he’s saying is that Apple are ignoring his original vison and regard it as irrelevant. Then, in a roundabout way, he takes a swipe at Apple.
I don’t think Raskin is the humble, self-deprecating type.
Jef’s ideas are clear, well studied, and very intelligent. The only problem with him is he has little bite to his bark.. he needs to back up all of his work with implementation. The work he has on sourceforge, humane.sf.net, doesn’t seem to be put together well or even by him.
He is one of a few men in the industry willing to oppose the horribly clunky/silly desktop metaphor for a GUI. His book THE, for the most part, was a great introduction and clear definition of good interface concepts. Interfaces nothing like we have today with GNOME or KDE and the five hundred ‘desktop oses’ based on them. Every time I see another report on desktop guis or os and widget toolkits/screenshots on osnews it makes me cringe. Ok, that was a rant.. but anyway. The reason he has so little work accomplished, outside his Canon Cat, is probably because it’d take redoing all software we have today. This will take a new development system, not just interface guidelines or more windowed programs.
Maybe, but he wasn’t against pointing devices such as trackballs, just the mouse which he considered clumsy.
Not true. He was against pointing devices, preferring special keys called “leap keys”. He believed taking your hands off the keyboard was confusing and a waste of time.
He is one of a few men in the industry willing to oppose the horribly clunky/silly desktop metaphor for a GUI.
Courage or stupidity? He has never articulated a practical alternative, and until he does I’ll call it stupidity. The Cat (I’ve actually used one) is a joke as far as a conceptual replacement for the general-purpose GUI.
“Not true. He was against pointing devices, preferring special keys called “leap keys”. He believed taking your hands off the keyboard was confusing and a waste of time.”
I do too.
I use IceWM and use mostly key bindings, all my apps are launched with Fn keys, and most of my navigation with the arrows. I switch btwn workspaces with the ‘winddows key’ + the workspace number, faster than the mouse.
Maybe he knew something then.
for power users perhaps but to be meant for everyday use we need the mouse. my mom still clicks on the save icon instead of ctr;-s because she feels more confindence when she does something “physical” (ie pressing a button on a machine)as opposed to just clicking keys. there is a reason apple brought out a one-button mouse. deride it all you want but i;’ve easted too much time explaining the difference betwen right and left click.
Even a command line is [much] better than the desktop metaphor and WIMP concept. Yes, he is full of a lot of crap, and can be arrogant/egotistical. He’s sort of lost his fire for developing anything and wants to instead build up information on usability in interfaces. That’s fine by me because that lets us use his ideas in whatever work we do. That is what Steve hired him to do at Apple, build documentation. I guess that is what he does best, and if so, might as well keep doing it.
I do too.
I do also. But then we’re not the entry level computer user. Having the mouse and pointing metaphor as the entry point and then learning shortcuts as you get more experienced makes sense.
I don’t believe that’s what Raskin was doing. While OS X’s GUI has become very different, I think it’s still bound to the basic metaphors introduced in the Mac. If you’ve read Raskin’s more recent work on GUIs, you’ll see he advocates a new and different approach, replacing the concrete metaphors that were comforting back when computers were a novelty, with newer paradigms that allow users to efficiently take advantage of the tools that have become a fundemental part of life.
Not true. He was against pointing devices, preferring special keys called “leap keys”. He believed taking your hands off the keyboard was confusing and a waste of time.
Not true. He does favor leap keys but has pointed out in interview after interview that it’s the mouse he hates, not pointing devices.
Not true. He was against pointing devices, preferring special keys called “leap keys”. He believed taking your hands off the keyboard was confusing and a waste of time.
That’s why to date, I think vim is the best editor in the world. And I still believe almost all GUIs suck. If you have to take your hands of the keyboard to use a GUI, it sucks, period.
Not only are today’s GUIs buggy, bloated and slow, they are confusing, obstructing and annoying. Not to mention the maniacal obsession with writing every application as a GUI even when it doesn’t make sense.
Thank goodness the future is web applications. At least web applications force developers to think in terms of users and also restrict the number annoying features they can exasperate users with. Lets ignore the flash infested web sites for now.
Hmm… You know, I’d have to agree, a interface that doesn’t require you to move your hands from the keyboard would be quite nice. I already keep my hands on the keyboard a large ammount of the time. I need to get a IBM laptop, with the rather unique nub in the center. That + a lot of widely used keyboard shortcuts would allow you to keep your hands where they need to be when typing. Of course there are times one needs the mouse in order to be effective as well. Fortunately today we can have both.
When I’ve got my hands on the keyboard, I tend to want to use the keyboard, when I’m using a mouse, I tend to use the mouse, make it so I have to switch less often, and its a big win.
On another subject, why did the following link disappear without warning, and without any explanation? The article had its problems, but things vanishing without any information is a bad thing.
http://osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=8626&offset=60&rows=70
now you are just playing with semantics.
has he EVER said that he preferred some other pointing device to the mouse? NO!! he always says that it should be keyboard shortcuts. look at his T.H.E. no where in there is there any mention of a pointing device of any kind unless he is bashing its use!!!!
hmm, perhaps it could be the reason you are confused by a GUI is because you are so dang use to the terminal…that could be it.
That’s why to date, I think vim is the best editor in the world. And I still believe almost all GUIs suck. If you have to take your hands of the keyboard to use a GUI, it sucks, period.
Not only are today’s GUIs buggy, bloated and slow, they are confusing, obstructing and annoying. Not to mention the maniacal obsession with writing every application as a GUI even when it doesn’t make sense.
Well, when the majority of apps a consumer uses are written with GUIs in mind, taking your hand off the mouse, and going into a text UI environment can easily represent a greater interruption.
people are so hung up on the keyboard. I suppose if you were big into computers before the mass use of GUIs you like keyboards. But those who started using computers say in the late 90s prefer mice, much the same reason people prefer GUIs over command lines. You see what you are doing. You don’t have to remember how to do something, just click and it’s faster (if you factor in remembering shortcuts and exicuting keystrokes). I have no idea on what the break down would be, but I would guess that a large if not majority of users today are like me, try to use the mouse for everything (hand always on mouse) and only go to the keyboard when left with no choice. I don’t want to have my hands tied to the keyboard. I like only needing one hand on a mouse to fully operate a computer. I would like to see people look more at making the keyboard un-needed. I only use it for inputing chunks of text.
To ditch the keyboard would be a good feat, don’t know how one would do it and not make something suck. But at the same time I hate having a keyboard filled full of keys in my way that I never use. I only use a fraction of the keys on it, as do many others. Often those other keys are just in the way.
More then anything I just think people need to get some perspective. People get stuck in ruts (command lines, keyboard only, win95) and refuse to move on with new ways of doing things and refuse to be open to them being better. Anyone who thinks if we never created GUIs or devices like mice computers would be as good or better today is a complete fool. I’d like to see some people who bitch about lack of keyboard short cuts or wanting things all keyboard to at least think for a bit that plenty of people want the opposite.
slightly off the subject of the article, i really enjoyed using the ion window manager.
modeemi.cs.tut.fi/~tuomov/ion/
of all the window managers i have tried (using linux) this one was the only that i considered different enough to be considered apart from other window managers.
perhaps if that holographic keyboard can be perfected and cheapened, some one can create a function in an OS that starts the imager when you click in a text field.
This is why he advocates removing as many modes away from the interface. Getting rid of input boxes, command lines, windows you have to switch focus to in order to type. Here lies the trouble with the separate application concept and “windows.” If you had your work and only your work where no matter when you typed your typing would go into your work.. nothing could get in your way. I like vi but it also has modes that causes you to mess up if you don’t reflect first on which mode you’re currently in. Windows are just an extension of modes, adding even more complexity. This is why imo X-Windows and Microsoft Windows and MacOS should all be deprecated and we work on a single focus (Jef calls it locus) interface that uses both mixed text and graphics.
Btw, Jef is against using pointers on computers for anything but the actual work that requires it (like graphics editing and gaming).
You’re entirely wrong on every point you make except that it is your preference. First of all, a GUI does not mean windows and widgets and icons, that’s a type of gui. You can use pure text or mixed text and graphics in a GUI. Second, shortcuts and commands have been proven scientifically to be much faster than using a pointer to select items. Referencing memory is a lot faster than motor senses and reflexes. Not to mention you need memory recall and constant visual feedback to even use a pointer on an item.
Language is not outdated. Typing is using language. Moving a pointer across a screen to click with buttons on icons is both not modeled after normal human behavior or any concept of human behavior. Pointing at something in the real world isn’t exactly efficient either. Do you arrange objects in the real world just so you can point at them using your fingers in order to communicate ideas to others? It basically makes a person change how they use an interface every time an element on the screen moves or changes. Language is constant.
Having said all of that, today’s language oriented interfaces have been largely neglected thanks to the brain dead desktop gui invention. The current textual interfaces are too complex and also have many mode/modal interface issues.
I remember when the day that people were using typewriters or wordprocessor appliances. Nobody, no matter how ‘new’ they were to them, had great difficulty then. What about using a pencil or pen? Everyone has trouble with them right? It is simply silly to think the extremely overcomplicated mess we call the desktop gui is actually easier to use than a keyboard to control and manipulate an interface.
If all you want to do is make pretty screenshots of windows and menus containing apps and icons, go with a desktop gui. If you want to get work done simply and efficiently, use something more direct and that doesn’t get in your way. Besides, if you’re a graphic artist then by all means use a pointer because you pretty much have to. A textual interface doesn’t get in the way of that, in fact a full screen canvas where you can type anytime while you work would actually be less in your way.
Jef is, btw, against command interfaces. Instead he believes we should apply the editor/single locus concept to all work we do on a computer. I agree greatly and am trying to put together such an interface.
The problem with the keyboard in current apps is that it is invisible. Keyboard shortcuts such as Ctrl+X are arbitrary and hard to remember (some time ago it was customary to offer shortcut help in the menus right along the command name, for some wrong reason they are not doing it anymore… I would greatly appreciate if at least the software told me in the status bar the shortcuts available for each command I run. Lyx does this). Part of the problem is that most keys in the keyboard, such as F9, have no clear purpose (and even worse, its purpose varies from application to application).
I suspect many people prefer the mouse because clicking some option named ‘save’ feels way more safer than pressing some random key combination such as Ctrl and S, and is much better remembered. However, should there exist a key named Save in the keyboard, pressing it would be way better and faster than using the mouse, and no more obscure. Actually, with the mouse you usually will be pressing some graphic image with only minor resemblance to the action it is supposed to represent (for example, a graphic of a diskette for the Save action).
One of the ideas of Jef Raskin is using well-named keys instead of obscure icons, slow menus, or arbitrary and invisible ‘shortcut’ key combinations.
The main problem with Jef is that his ideas don’t scale. You can’t create a general-purpose computer using a fixed set of commands, and a keyboard plagued with dozens of command keys could be as difficult to use as a program with only one menu with all its options. He always considers his ideas in the context of a text editor, where they work better, but for other tasks such as reading email or CAD/graphic design, they don’t. For example, a wheel mouse, browsing the web, is far more productive than any keyboard navigation.
However, many of his insights really sould catch on. There is absolutely no reason for not having a key named ‘Help’ in the keyboard, instead of the maningless ‘F1’. And keys for Copy, Cut and Paste would also be great (we already have Delete).
Jef sounds like a bitter old fart that is mad at the whole world and now prefer to taint any goodness in something he cannot take credit for. The interesting thing Jef… there will always be someone faster, smarter, sharper and happier!
Snooze you loose!!!
Actually scrolling with a spacebar and shift+spacebar is to me a lot faster than using a wheel.
Type ahead find, search, and numbered links is also faster for me than having to move the mouse over to individual links. Of course stupid graphic links prevent type ahead so you need to use tab.. which actually is a lot more comfortable even still.
I think future interfaces will be modeless much like a tv is. A tv you have a bunch of buttons you use to change ‘links’ (channels) and other settings like sound. We’ll have language rich interfaces without restrictive widgets/window panes, bars, or menus. We’ll also be able to mix all sorts of media within the same view much like a website can already do. I think the web has brought us, in part, many of the features Jef is advocating. A browser for example applies the same kind of navigation concept to all content.. Jef wants to apply the editor concept with LEAP key combos and a zooming interface to all content.
CAD is another form of input using graphical objects and numerical data. It can be molded around an editor concept as well. An editor doesn’t just have to take input from a keyboard, it can take input from a mouse as well. Jef advocates being able to do CAD, E-mail, or anything within any work you are doing at any time. No mode switching, just the same editor interface with a LEAP key combo set for similar functions across different kinds of work.
This works on the philosophy that all work shares a set number of basic primitive modifiers. A lot of this still needs to be done/realized of course. A concept is only as good as its implementation(s).
… as one of the few poor souls who has actually seen his work: The Canon cat. All I have to give to Mr. Raskin is a big can of STFU. I have seen people using both systems, most people were confused beyond belief using the cat, yet quite at home under the mac.
If his ideas were so brilliant people would be using his interface, alas he is just not willing to concede he was wrong. Mac with its point and drool interface, and its own faults, it is ahead of anything that Mr. Raskin has ever thought of.
In the end talk is cheap, and that is all that Mr. Raskin has done as of late. If he thinks he can do better, by all means he is free to show it with an actual product. Until then he is just an irrelevant old man that surfaces every now and then.
” You can praise them, disagree with them, quote them,
disbelieve them, glorify or vilify them.
About the only thing you can’t do is ignore them.”
Am I the only one who thinks that this perfectly describes Mr Raskin and this community’s reaction?
http://www.apple.com/thinkdifferent/
Not all work can be done with a keyboard, I’d like to see Mr Raskin trying to do graphical work with a keyboard and LEAP keys! A mouse isn’t great either, but its better than nothing.
I really like the current way computers work. We can do a lot with the keyboard, esp. with software such as QuickSilver installed on a Mac. And I tend to use the keyboard the most. Yet, I also want to be able to do anything with the mouse as well. I don’t want to learn everything before I can start using an app, I want to learn the app whilst using it. So every menuitem should preferably have a logical shortcut. Once I’ve looked a command up in the menu often enough, I’ll remember the shortcut (as it is shown there) to start using it. Of course consistency in shortcuts between apps is of uttermost importance here.
Bottomline, give up the idea of an only keyboard or only mouse oriented GUI, as that would unneeded limit the user. Let the user choose and provided ways to do it either way.
Isn’t the separation of display and control the problem? We view here, and control it from over here.
If I had a biiig touchscreen I could grab a window and scroll it, I could push a button. I could have a little keyboard on the screen, so there isn’t a big movement from pointing to typing. Its one big space. A floating keyboard that appears dashboard stylee?
Bit Minority Report, but thats a user interface of the future.
If you’ve read Raskin’s more recent work on GUIs, you’ll see he advocates a new and different approach, replacing the concrete metaphors that were comforting back when computers were a novelty, with newer paradigms that allow users to efficiently take advantage of the tools that have become a fundemental part of life.
I have read it. It’s nothing more than interesting blather – lots of his “concepts” are either mushy, motherhood-and-apple-pie kinds of things or are ideas that don’t scale beyond the unfortunate Cannon Cat (the computer he wanted the Macintosh to be).
I don’t believe that’s what Raskin was doing. While OS X’s GUI has become very different, I think it’s still bound to the basic metaphors introduced in the Mac. If you’ve read Raskin’s more recent work on GUIs, you’ll see he advocates a new and different approach, replacing the concrete metaphors that were comforting back when computers were a novelty, with newer paradigms that allow users to efficiently take advantage of the tools that have become a fundemental part of life.
A better phrasing would be: “replacing the concrete metaphors” with crap. Ever tried using his experimental interface? No sane person would use such a thing.
There ARE experts in GUI research and HCI. Jeff Raskin is a poor one. He only managed to get to here by milking for ages his Machintosh involvments (which isn’t as much as he makes out to be).
That’s why to date, I think vim is the best editor in the world. And I still believe almost all GUIs suck. If you have to take your hands of the keyboard to use a GUI, it sucks, period.
You are an idiot. A keyboard is a device excellent for a) typing b) giving textual commands. It’s not a be all end all solution for managing a computer.
GUIs helped us take computers to areas where we would never be able to if he used only CLIs and shortcuts. Image editing, DTP (not producing articles and papers like in LaTeX, but design-of-the-moment magazines), Movie editing, Virtual Instruments, etc…
Computers are not glorified typewriters. Not every program is suited by text input/commands.
Btw, Jef is against using pointers on computers for anything but the actual work that requires it (like graphics editing and gaming).
Yes, but then again Jeff is an idiot, that haven’t produced anything concrete.
Thank god his original hysterical ideas weren’t incorporated into the Mac.
Until he manages to produce an actual implementation that people like and use, he is just tooting vapourware, like the horrible THE.
Reminds me of the issue with Typewriter key layout.
http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/jcb/Dvorak/
Which is better? Faster? Now that CPU’s are faster and can take advantage of a bloated GUI… is it worth it to change now that everyone is stuck on the GUI concept?
I kind of like having an option and would like to see an os based on Raskins design. Would be fun to see.. Maybe some new concepts could come out of it after everyone has a chance to see it and play with it. Either way, you could call him a nut, stuck up, whatever.. He does have some ideas that if looked into, could be something that someone finds useful.
S
If his ideas were so brilliant people would be using his interface, alas he is just not willing to concede he was wrong. Mac with its point and drool interface, and its own faults, it is ahead of anything that Mr. Raskin has ever thought of.
Even though I’m personally not very fond of Raskins ideas, your logic is flawed. Just becase something is better doesn’t mean that people will use it. And moving away from the current UI into something radically different isn’t an easy process.
I mean, people still use qwerty keymaps.
Even though I’m personally not very fond of Raskins ideas, your logic is flawed. Just becase something is better doesn’t mean that people will use it. And moving away from the current UI into something radically different isn’t an easy process.
I mean, people still use qwerty keymaps.
And rightly so. The qwerty/dvorak issue is a myth.
Dvorak (or whatever) is not superior to qwerty. The only thing that
perpetuates this myth is people that once heard it as fact (like all urban legends).
http://wwwpub.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=356
One thing’s for sure. He doesn’t hide his bitterness well.
Mice only work well for drawing. Those who can type can work a keyboard faster a mouse. As for browesing the web, I use a wheelmouse at home and a laptop nub, and arrow keys at work. I can use the nub with both hands, and can actually browse the web easier at work. As my hands never leave the keyboard.
Also if all apps were rebuilt for keyboards, with a standard shortcut system then the keyboard would trounce mice.
My Ideal interface would take a laptop keyboard, and Nub mouse with a touch screen. That way I can interface with objects, tabs and windows by touching the screen, but still have keys and pointers to work with.
I suppose if you were big into computers before the mass use of GUIs you like keyboards. But those who started using computers say in the late 90s prefer mice
You suppose incorrectly. I personally didn’t own a computer until 1996 and I prefer to use keyboard shortcuts whenever possible. Mice and keyboard both have their uses with current PCs, like it or not, and your generalisation is just as silly as the “mice are useless” comments.
You don’t have to remember how to do something, just click and it’s faster (if you factor in remembering shortcuts and exicuting keystrokes).
The mouse is typically faster for simple, one-time tasks. For tasks that are performed often, (copy-cut-paste, switching between two application, switching between entry fields in a form, etc), the keyboard will typically be faster. Because it is more precise and accurate
I like only needing one hand on a mouse to fully operate a computer
Have you ever watched a graphic artist working? Chances are that she’ll have one hand on the mouse and the other on the keyboard. This is because graphics applications, probably the most mouse-centric programs available, require the use of modifier keys in order to be used efficiently.
Mice are not nearly flexible enough to function as the sole, general purpose input device. And keyboards aren’t suitable for that task for the majority of users, either.
I suppose if you were big into computers before the mass use of GUIs you like keyboards. But those who started using computers say in the late 90s prefer mice.
I was big into computers before the Mac was introduced, although I was a whelp at the time. I grew up memorizing numerous text commands and working with the scrolling terminal interface.
Even so, the first moment I tried to use a WIMP program (CoCoMax I think, a clone of MacPaint) its genius was obvious to me.
A number of people are eager to denigrate and deprecate the WIMP. I’ve read comments that VI is the be-all and end-all of text editing, &c.
What rubbish! I have better things to do with my time than memorize secret text commands and look them up somewhere in the manual when I forget what they are. When I want to do something in a graphical text editor, I don’t have to worry that I’ve forgotten the correct keyboard sequence: I can browse through the menu. Using the same technique, I can discover useful commands I didn’t even know existed, making me more productive (try doing that with VI, short of buying a book or scrolling through man pages). For you power users who like to customize your text editors with scripts: you can do that, too, with even a half-competent graphical text editor.
Whining about bloat is hilarious. If you’re counting bytes from a GUI, I suppose you’d like to go back to punch cards, when you didn’t have to waste memory on programming a screen display at all. That will refocus computers on “real” tasks like network communication, instead of visualizing complex mathematics.
Speaking of which: if I want to rotate a 3-dimensional graph, it is much easier with my trackball, as well as with a mouse, than it would be with a keyboard alone. If I want to move the focus quickly from one part of the computer screen (where I have some equations) to another (where I am typing a report on the theory behind the equations), Apple’s Exposé has proven itself far more helpful than anything I’ve used before.
A keyboard alone cannot provide the flexibility that I gain from a mouse. I lived the supposed glory days before windows and mice. They weren’t all that glorious.
BTW, I’d like to note that if we’re talking about “real” work: computers were invented for the sake of aiding mathematical research, not for network communication or marketing databases or “web applications”. Hence the name: computer.
Most Windows users hate the Classic Mac Os 6-9 because it is too different. You hear this from Anand of Anandtech and other websites.
In order to attract Windows users, Apple had to make OsX resemble Windows as much as possible. e.g. Dock is similar to task bar. Widgets on top left of document windows almost similar functionality to Windows widgets. Mac Os gave up on a superior file naming convention to resemble windows with .doc extensions.
In the classic Mac Os one always went to the Menu on top to perform actions. Now you can find action buttons on the bottom panel of the windows. Notice some of the iPod functions such as eject is located in the bottom.
There is little consistency in the way different programs work on Os X compared to Os 9. This is acknowledged by many former users of Mac Os (Daring Fireball, and Ars Technica). It used to be that once you knew how to use one program on the Mac, you could then dive into any new program and get going right away. It is not that simple now. Even to use iMovie for the first time, one has to read the help documents.
Although Jef Raskin is little too harsh, there is a kernel of truth in what he says.
Thats my take on it.
i work much more productively in Photoshop and Lightwave by using the keyboard. navigating and managing menus/submenus/prefs/layers/selections/masks/clipboards and other things is just too slow and clumsy with a mouse. these are programs you have to have a mouse and tablet in to work effectively, yet using the keyboard when you can will seriously save a lot of time.
What I hear from people who use computers several hours a day (other than simply typing letters) is that they know how to type and they have taken the extra effort to learn keyboard shortcuts. I am in this category.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of casual computer users are in the category of “hunt and peck” typing. For them the mouse is a marvelous invention. They just want to use the computer and not invest the time and energy to learn such arcane, but powerful, editors like VI or the many available keystroke shortcuts for doing their work.
I do not find it difficult to use a “special key” + S to save my work. It is faster. However, the average user (if there is any such a person) does not mind the extra second or two, or fraction of a second, required to use the mouse to accomplish a task. Selecting “Save” from a menu is no big deal for them.
I have decided that more time is spent discussing how much time is saved if you use my interface. OK, if you use a computer 8-12 hours a day you might have something. But most people spend less than 4 hours a day on the computer.
I am completely happy with the ease of use of the mouse and the availability of keystroke shortcuts if I want to take the time to learn them. A study done back around 1986 (no I do not have a reference) showed that a Macintosh user worked with, on the average, 6 applications while the DOS user worked with 2 applications. This study clearly pointed out that the difference was not due to the fact that smart users were on a Mac. The difference was due to the fact that one had to learn a different set of key commands for each application while on the Mac there was at least some consistancy across applications.
I know, this has got to be a flawed study. However, even within simple margins of error the study pointed out that the general computer user on each system expended about the same amount of time getting comfortable with the applications they use frequently.
My conclusion is that we need the best of both worlds. I want the CHOICE of using my mouse, a keyboard, or any other device that makes me productive. And,yes, I would like to see alternative ways of doing my work whether it is a GUI or something else. However, I will always choose a GUI word processor over VI.
In order to attract Windows users, Apple had to make OsX resemble Windows as much as possible. e.g. Dock is similar to task bar.
No. Dock is similar to NextStep’s Dock, which predates Windows’ taskbar.
In the classic Mac Os one always went to the Menu on top to perform actions. Now you can find action buttons on the bottom panel of the windows.
No. There were action buttons in classic Mac OS, at least in the dialogs. In fact, there were action buttons in Xerox’ systems, from which Mac took much of its inspiration.
Where do you people get these nutty ideas?!?
First of all: I haven’t read the article 🙂
I don’t like mice, too, and prefer using keyboard whenever possible. But the problem with keyboard shortcuts as they’re today is that they’re not really discoverable. You have to memorize them or display them on the screen (which is not a very big problem, but it takes screen real estate and is not very elegant).
What I dream of since a long time is a keyboard having a number of functional keys with small LCD screens in each so that apps could dynamically display icons or text labels in them. A sort of hardware toolbar, actually. Now people that have mastered touch-typing probably won’t appreciate this, but I would say, it isn’t really hard to learn where the specific function keys are on a per-app basis. Anyway you do the same with shortcuts today.
I wasn’t referring to where it (Dock vs Task bar) came from. I only drew some similarities between Windows and Mac Os X. Thus it does not matter that action buttons predated Mac Os in Xerox systems. I only indicated that the classic Mac Os, as a rule, did not use these to very great extent in the different applications. Therefore, I agreed with Jeff Raskin that the UI was not as consistent as before, but I would not go as far as him to state that it was a big mess and not usable.
Cheers
Coombs,
the problem with your origional statement was that you implied that Apple was copying Windows, when in actuality Microsoft has only copied Apple and Nextstep… which now is OS X.
I have read several interview with this guy and this one is the tamest so far, in all the other ones he seems to be this old guy who missed out on the ride and is now pathetically trying to hold on to what ever fame he can claim to. I remember when at the MacWorld Expo I think it was he got up on the stage and tooted his own horn so hard and bashed apple so bad, I wonder if he was even any importance what so ever, when I research who he was I realized how insignificant he really is.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of casual computer users are in the category of “hunt and peck” typing. For them the mouse is a marvelous invention.
I don’t know how long this situation is going to last. Consider how pervasive computers are today. Go into any office and tell me what you see right in the middle of the desk. Most likely, it is a computer. Between reports, e-mail, memos, and the internet, most office workers use a computer for at least several hours a day. There are very few other things that people spend that much time interacting with. I don’t see this situation changing in the future. If anything, computers will become more pervasive, not less.
Now, consider that the current workforce won’t be there forever. Over the next decade or two, many of them will retire, and will be replaced by today’s kids and teenagers. This is a demographic that grew up using computers, one that is more comfortable talking over AIM than over a telephone. As they become a large part of the workforce, you can definitely see how the skill distribution of the workforce is going to change, and it is not hard to imagine that this shift would have an influence on computer interfaces.
If you read my posting carefully, you would notice I did not use the word ‘copy’ any where.
I would not dare imply that in this forum!
It would bring out the fanatics from the different camps!
But you will have to concede that for a ‘Mac’ person, it is not that difficult to use Windows. It is also increasingly becoming easier for a Windows’ user to switch to Macs running Os X (but not Os 9).
It follows, therefore,that the Oses, in their current incarnations, share quite a bit of similarity. That may not, necessarily, be all that bad.
Cheers
I think he was refering to this..
Apple had to make OsX resemble Windows as much as possible…
which did imply ‘copying’
but anywho. I don’t give a darn anymore. People will just copy each other left and right and I’ll end up with the best of a bunch of worlds.. (I hope)
..about the cano cat. go here -> http://old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=642&st=1
Not all work can be done with a keyboard, I’d like to see Mr Raskin trying to do graphical work with a keyboard and LEAP keys! A mouse isn’t great either, but its better than nothing.
Yeah, and that can’t even be done with a mouse.
i ONLY use the mouse for gaming and poor design websites
I program ONLY with a keyboard. i navigate the web only with a keyboard (thanks to the type ahead function in firefox!). i do CAD only with a keyboard (3dmax don’t count. it’s a hobby or a terapy, not productivity stuff). and i use photoshop and gimp with a pressure sensitive pen (my old cheap wacom tablet) or just scan my pencil+ink drawings.
the mouse is only for games… and wrist pain (dunno the clinical name in english)
this is os*NEWS* and you talk about mice and keyboard?
this crap must inovate! someone pointed that the keyboard should change. i agree. we still have “sysreq” key on every keyboard on earth and no help or save button!
the mouse whell was a usefull thing, so everyone adopted it. i think that we only need some action with the rest, and it will change.
“i ONLY use the mouse for gaming and poor design websites”
I am getting tired of people assuming that what works for them should work for the rest of the people. I like to have the choice, I know all the shortcuts I need by heart, hell I can do most of my daily tasks from emacs w/o ever using a single mouse click. Is that reasonable as a general user experience, no. It works for me, and I like to have that choice… however when I see my parents using their computers, they just do not give a crap about doing everything from they keyboard. They want to point and click to take care of their transfers, write a letter every now and then, check their e-mail, take care of their finances, etc. And that is it, they have other important things than remembering what each shortcut is, because believe it or not.. their lives do not revolve around their computers. A mouse coupled with a point and drool interface seems to be rather productive for them.
So the people who want a mouse by all means use it, for those who don’t… well don’t. Just don’t try to take away any choice, I just don’t like that….
“this crap must inovate! someone pointed that the keyboard should change. i agree. we still have “sysreq” key on every keyboard on earth and no help or save button!”
I always wondered what the SysReq key was for, and I’ve been using computers since the early 1980s. Also Scroll Lock and the PAuse/Break keys seem to be useless now-a-days
Apple may have reincarnated the Next’s Dock in Os X. Since a majority of computer users i.e, Windows users, have never used the Next Os, it ended up with functionality similar, but not identical, to that of the Window’s Task bar and from a Windows’ user’s perspective, it was easy to relate to. In any case, the ultimate result of incorporating several UI functions and elements in the Mac/Next hybrid Os (Os X), resulted in a UI that had many similarities to Windows. My premise is that this was deliberate attempt by Apple to woo some of the Windows crowd to the Mac. Without these changes, I suspect that the market share of Apple would have further deteriorated.
Cheers
Apple may have reincarnated the Next’s Dock in Os X.
There’s no “may have” about it. OSX is the next generation of NextStep. Apple bought ought Next around the time that it brought Steve Jobs on board. They dropped their then-current Rhapsody (? or was it Copland?) project and began to develop OSX from the NextStep codebase. The major features of NextStep were carried over into OSX:
* the Dock
* “column view” in the Finder
* the Mach “micro”kernel
* the BSD Unix layer
* Objective-C as the preferred development language
* DisplayPostScript became DisplayPDF
* Cocoa APIs have preserved the NextStep classes NSWindow, NSApplication, etc.
* etc.
My premise is that this was deliberate attempt by Apple to woo some of the Windows crowd to the Mac.
You’re right that Apple wanted to woo some of the Windows crowd to the Mac. What you’re wrong about – and TOTALLY wrong about – is that the Dock’s functionality (and OSX’s UI in general) was an attempt on Apple’s part to woo Windows users.
You would be right about Alt+Tab, but that wasn’t in the original OSX. That’s really the only thing I can think of offhand that takes from Windows.
Rhapsody was the spawn of Next, which later morphed into osX. Copeland was the orphan. Somebody tell Jef)f) the boat sailed, and he missed it.
“What you’re wrong about – and TOTALLY wrong about – is that the Dock’s functionality (and OSX’s UI in general) was an attempt on Apple’s part to woo Windows users. “- How would you know this? You were on the design decisions at Apple?
I don’t want to get into who invented what-that seems to raise the shackles on too many folks. What I am trying to get across is that there is a lot of similarity, whether intentional or not, between Os X and Windows. At least I can see the similarities and I concur with Jeff Raskin’s statement that the two Oses are beginning to look alike.
If I recall, sometime ago, Steve Wozniak said that all computers are basically Macs- which is basically true.
Time to head off to CARS <http://www.crazyapplerumors.com/> to cool off!
” i do CAD only with a keyboard”
I’m curious what program you use. I can’t think of a CAD program that you can only use the keyboard with. Maybe some very old ones, but not Pro/E or Solidworks, heck I don’t even think you can avoid the mouse with CADDS V, but then my time with that is limited.
If your using a newer 3D modeling program there is no way around the mouse (and why would you want to avoid it) and programs are just getting more mouse contric say Pro/E 2001 to Pro/E Wildfire. I can’t imagine trying to get anything done in Pro/E without a mouse, aside from unless there is some massively messed up way to do things there is no way to work it without a mouse. With newer programs basicly the only time you need the keyboard is to input a value, or a name. If they only had a pop up on screen num pad when there is a need to put in a value i could be leaned back in my chair and do 99% of things with just the mouse.
Also would be nice since I have my right hand working the CAD station mouse while the other hand is working my windows box doing whatever i need there. Thats another advantage of mice, it makes it easy to use two computers at the same time. I keap a mouse in each hand. Oh and would this be a good time to bitch about Solaris?
I do not find it difficult to use a “special key” + S to save my work. It is faster. However, the average user (if there is any such a person) does not mind the extra second or two, or fraction of a second, required to use the mouse to accomplish a task.
Except of course, it’s you who don’t mind the extra second required to use the keyboard. See:
http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Mouse_vs._keyboard/
In every study ever done on this issue, the stopwatch always showed that the mouse is faster than the keyboard. And more interestingly, the people who were being tested always said that the keyboard was faster. I guess the lesson of the day is “Your perceptions are not always right.” Especially when your mind is wrapped up in the complexities of computing.
This is so funny, and shows how small your world view is. Most of you guys are supposedly doing some kind of coding, mail and web browsing where the only interaction with the computer is typing, switching apps and some file management. Based on that you say a UI where you have to take your hands off the keyboard is crap. What a pile of rubbish.
I am a designer by trade and also do 2D animation and lots of visual things. I don’t even want to imagine what would happen, if I had to do all of that with only the keyboard.
Don’t get me wrong I’m making excessive use of shortcuts. On the Mac I never click the close window button ever, it’s always CMD+W for me, to switch windows I hit my self defined shortcut for rotating windows, and so forth, when I work and I don’t type, I usually have my left hand on the keyboard to type shortcuts and the right one on the mouse. But there’s also an endless number of tasks that can be done quicker and more effectively with the mouse than the keyboard.
Say you’ve got a bunch of photo thumbnails in iPhoto, you want to select some of them (all with random names) and copy them to the desktop, what would be faster than command+clicking on the thumbnail to select several images and then dragging the whole bunch on the desktop in one move? To select the images you need to look at the thumbnails anyway so this is clearly a task where the mouse and the GUI is superior to all other options.
I don’t want to get into who invented what-that seems to raise the shackles on too many folks. What I am trying to get across is that there is a lot of similarity, whether intentional or not, between Os X and Windows. At least I can see the similarities and I concur with Jeff Raskin’s statement that the two Oses are beginning to look alike.
It depends a lot on the context within which you’re making the comparison. If you’re _only_ looking at OS X and Windows, then they’re different in most ways that matter – window management, menu access, keyboard access, etc. However, if you zoom out to encompass “all GUIs” then, yes, they are very similar – but so are just about all of them
.
The mouse may not be a particually good pointing device but Mr Raskin is against all pointing devices. According to him everything should be done with the keyboard and LEAP keys (as in the unsucessful Cannon Cat).
You cannot do graphics with this setup as Brad, Argl, and you yourself (as you use a graphics tablet, a pointing device, rather than just the keyboard) pointed out.
what i see are usefull would be a combo of trackball and keyboard in one unit so that when i need to drag and drop i could move the pointer by just moveing one hand and placeing the tumb on the ball. then maybe add some scroll wheel or two(similar to what is showing up on the logiteck and microsoft keyboards) and your starting to get interesting interface (yes the keyboard and mouse is part of the interface, its not only the stuff on the screen. in fact every button and light on the computer is part of the interface!).
still, a even better one would be an idea that i see someone else here allready have aired. a touch plate where the keybard can be replaced with a set of software commands in clearely labeld buttons. basicly a mutateable/programable keyboard with a unlimited number of buttons
when you have something like that you dont have to use the mouse to hunt for a gui widget or a keyboard shortcut. you just hit the “key” marked save on the “keyboard”.
marry this with a web like interface based on the ideas presented in haystack and things start to get realy interesting. the apps stop being apps and rather beceom plugins to the interface. and if we make it web based, why not let the user write his own frontend by defineing zones?
“over here i want the task list, over here i want a dedictaed notification area and here is can have the main io area where i do my work. and on the second screen i want to have a dedicted im area with a continual image of my webcam so that i can see what they see
“. oh man!
there have been several keyboards made with built-in trackballs – in fact, there was even a version of the classic IBM ‘clacky keyboard’ with a built-in trackball once. Buy one of those and you’ll be in happy-typing, happy-rolling, neighbour-annoying heaven…
will this guy please just shut up?
Jef has never argued against the mouse where the mouse is practical, notably in graphics programs. But he does argue for a more keyboard centric interface in general for most tasks.
To me, the closest thing we have to the “Jef Vision” is basically Emacs. It’s certainly not his ideal, but overall it’s pretty darn close. He has other idea besides the fixation on the keyboard, but from that point of view, Emacs offers a heck of a lot of what he advocates.
It’s quite the shame that he’s doing all his work from scratch, when I think he could have leveraged Emacs and bend it to his will and give a much quicker proof of concept of what he wants to do.
GUIs are more adaptable to exploration, you pick and choose and hunt around with your mouse, clicking on things, seeing what magic happens.
But once you’ve passed that hurdle, the benefit of the exploration is lost on you, and now you need to hunt to do routine tasks.
Most folks who work enough with these machines gain muscle memory to use the keyboard. They simply “know” where the keys are without having to hunt them down. When you “know” what you want, and how to get their via a keyboard, your muscle memory makes that process that much more efficent.
Mouse based interfaces don’t offer that benefit. In order to accomplish a mouse based task, you much “aim” the mouse at the point on the screen. You don’t know where the mouse starts, and you don’t know where the target is, so you can’t grab the mouse and “learn” to move it the proper amount. You HAVE to aim it, accelerate until you get close, decelerate, make your final micro adjustments, and then click.
For example, a habit I have is when I need to use the mouse, I tend to run it in a circle so my eye can find the cursor, then I direct it to whereever I want to go.
Now, obviously a lot of this happens automatically and somewhat subconsciously. But, it is simply less efficient to aim the mouse at File, click, aim it at Save, and then click again than it is to enter Alt+f+s, or Ctrl+s. You and your fingers can “memorize” that sequence, you can not memorize the mouse sequence, even though you know exactly what you want to do. (To be fair, you can memorize the “File” to “Save” part, as it is usally fixed, but only for a specific application — other applications may move the menu item higher or lower on the menu, where as something like Ctrl-s may well (or at least should) “always” work.)
For me, Emacs gives me the efficiency of the keyboard, and (with Ctrl+h+i) the “discoverablility” of a GUI.
I will say this tho, the mouse is certainly more casual. More relaxed. I can lazily aim the mouse at close window boxes, or web links, and navigate with only one hand. That is particularly difficult to do with a keyboard, so it gives you an alternative for those lazy times.