Though Microsoft is the behemoth that everyone loves to hate, the computing world actually owes a lot to Bill Gates and co. And though it’s possible that someone else would have blazed the trail to “a PC on every desktop,” in our world, it was Microsoft that did it. Update: Now with page breaks! (My fault — David)
Computers have been around for decades now, even centuries, if you include the Abacus, which I imagine, although debatable, could be considered the original computer. The ENIAC was the first electronic computer. Built in the 1940’s, the machine itself was massive and powered by vacuum tubes. It did little more than the Abacus in a sense that it was designed for numerical calculations. At the time it was a great achievement. No one but top military personnel and scientists had access to it. By today’s standards it would be nothing more than a simple calculator. By comparison, today any child can go to the public library and have access to a computer that is thousands of times more powerful.
Unless you have been living behind closed doors and shuttered windows you’ve no doubt seen the articles and debates about the competition between GNU/Linux and the Microsoft Windows Operating System. Which system is better? Both camps claim to have the better OS. This may actually be the truth of the whole matter. No single Operating system is going to be the best fit for all tasks.
I personally am not a Microsoft advocate. I urge people on a daily basis to use alternative Open Source software when I see an opportunity, such as OpenOffice and Firefox. Both of these programs are available on the Windows platform as well as various others. It’s no big deal to install and use Firefox, but trying to get people to abandon their OS in favor of a system they may never have heard of could be like a mission out of a James Bond movie, with more drama than a daytime soap opera. Certain issues that surround Free and Open Source Software must still be evaluated, such as patents and Intellectual Property. These issues cannot be ignored and must be resolved.
However, in all fairness, and to keep history straight, one must acknowledge Microsoft’s contribution to the computing industry. Bill Gates had a goal in mind. That goal was to put a Windows based computer on every desktop. He has, for the most part, succeed in his endeavor. At last count, MS Windows, in some form or another, accounted for more than 90% of the desktop market. This figure is slowly starting to decline as the use and acceptance of the Open Source Operating System GNU/Linux Rises. Microsoft is primarily responsible for the proliferation of a ‘point and click’ computing system built on relatively inexpensive hardware.
It’s not necessarily because Microsoft had a superior product. In the early days, Apple computers were the dominant force in desktop computing. But Apple, like all other computer vendors before, were interested in selling a package of hardware and software. Microsoft’s early position as an OS provider to IBM, and its later decision to focus on software and let commodity hardware vendors fight over ever-decreasing profits from hardware, was the primary factor in driving down the cost of personal computers. Hardware vendors competed on price, but “the PC” was advanced not by this chaotic gaggle of vendors, but my Microsoft, above the fray.
Add to this Microsoft’s formidable marketing ability and ruthless competitive practices, and the Windows platform rose to near absolute dominance in a decade.
Microsoft did not, as we all know, invent computing, but what they did do, as stated earlier, was bring the computer into the home of the average Joe and Jane. It’s ironic how it was Microsoft that made computers affordable and now there’s the whole debate over TCO/ROI (Total cost of ownership/Return on investment) and licensing fees.
The Redmond bunch is always examined under a microscope. Everyone watches, from financial analysts to security experts. They are sometimes portrayed unfairly. For instance, some say that Microsoft “stole” the windowing system from Apple and they will tell you how Apple was able to hire engineers and license technology from Xerox, the originators of the windowing system. In my opinion these are subtle differences. Microsoft may have cribbed ideas from Apple, and may have abused their partnership, but let’s look at the evolution of KDE and GNOME. Didn’t they base their windowing environments, to some extent, on Windows? It must be realized that for the computing industry to continue to grow ideas will forever be appropriated, even in the world of proprietary software.
Today, security is one of the biggest issues concerning computing. With viruses and spyware rampant, security has become big business. When MS was developing Windows not even they could foresee the popularity of the Internet. At the time, the Internet was nothing more than a bunch of message boards. Billions of dollars did not flow over the wires daily. At the time, network security was a minor issue. Without Microsoft, the Internet would not have proliferated nearly as quickly. Once again MS did not invent it, but they enabled a huge amount of access to it. If not for Microsoft ,thousand of companies might not exist today.
Microsoft did not only develop an OS, they developed some excellent office applications, some of which revolutionized . They delivered some so-called “Killer application” Programs that were specifically designed to fill a void.
A vast number of modern day GNU/Linux and Mac users were introduced to computing through some version of Windows. They used MS products before they converted to their present day OS of choice. Their basic computer skills were honed on a Windows box. If not for that prior introduction, would they now be effective computer users? and if so to what extent?
Linus Torvalds developed the Linux Kernel. It was not very useful by itself. Thanks to input from Open Source developers, The Free Software Foundation, and the GNU Project, Linux evolved into the backbone of the useful, robust system that we have today. But Linux was originally developed as a way to run a Unix-like system on the kind of commodity Intel hardware that was easily available to everyone, thanks in large part to Microsoft. Had their been no widely available, “open” PC standard, Linux would have had no foothold.
If they did not have Windows to compete with, would the Gnu project be as successful as it is? Isn’t competition with Microsoft the primary driving force behind its success? Furthermore, even if the GNU Project was developed to the same level of efficiency as it currently stands, (without the existence of Microsoft) would any GNU/Linux vendor have the ability to produce the marketing power of Microsoft enabling them to bring computing to the masses?
A lot of the desktop versions of GNU/Linux we use today are Microsoft look-a-likes and function similarly to Windows. An inexperienced user may not even notice the difference between WindowsXP and distributions such as Lycoris, Linspire formerly Lindows and ELX (Everyone’s Linux) These distros and several others, deliberately copy a Windows scheme. Providing similar desktop backgrounds and familiar icons to those in the Windows world. These upstart Linux distributions are therefore able to ride on Windows’ coat-tails, and provide a computing experience that people are familiar with, thanks to the consolidation of the PC industry that Microsoft effected.
Like it or not The Mighty Giant known as Microsoft stood at the foot of the unknown road and blazed a trail. All of the Desktop OSes we have today owe a dept to the present monopolistic, proprietary King of the desktop. Given the fact that MS toppled Apple and squashed IBM’s OS/2 before it even had a chance, no one could say with absolute certainty what desktop computing, the Internet, or the computing industry itself would look like today if not for Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer and Microsoft.
Would it be a dry, barren, lifeless, wasteland, or would the fruits of the labor of GNU/Linux, Apple or even IBM have blossomed into a computing system we could never imagine. The world will never know.
> Except some people buy Bugs and some people (for reasons
> that are not immediately apparent to me, but must be to
> them) buy Hummers. Would either set of people be happy if
> the only car available was a family sedan?
Hm, I think you stress the analogy a bit too far. Saying there is “only a family sedan” is like saying “there is only a desktop OS and it must be used for embedded systems and servers too”.
I think having Windows and Linux and MacOS is more like having Ford and Toyota and Mercedes. That is, competitors in the same category. If there was only one car company in your category, you’d miss innovation and cheap prices, but not the diversity itself. Same for OSes.
The MESMERIC
Geeze than Windows is much harder than Linux!
Harder in some ways, easier in others. It’s actually pretty easy to keep Windows stable and secure. Of course, you will never believe that .. you can’t, because it’s against your religion.
So I was told that on top of having a 3rd party firewall installed – I am the culprit for not wanting to invest on Norton Anti Virus. My fault damn it!
Anti-virus programs are freely available, as are firewalls. In fact, between AVG, Sygate (and other free firewalls), Spybot, etc, there’s really not any need to pay for any security software if you don’t want to.
Sure – spend spend spend. $350 for MS Office Pro (after all needed Access) .. then VS.NET .. then $400 for a RAM upgrade – surprise I need more RAM to run VS.NET (strange version 1 was ok – why version 2 needs that now?).
Right, and how much RAM to you need to run, for example, the latest version of Eclipse on Linux?
Since as you say – Windows XP can go running perfectly for over 3 years (without reinstallation) running absolutely perfect without a crash – with 40+ application.
Yes, it ran for 3 years without a crash running 40+ apps, but I didn’t say without a reinstallation. Actually, I’ve reinstalled it several times – never because I had to. I’ve honestly never tried running it that long. I did run a Win2k install at work for 2 years )(on a P3 700 w/128MB RAM, later upgraded to 256) with almost the same number apps, running 8 hours a day. Never once crashed, but I did have to reboot it every couple of weeks because Win2k has a habit of slowly leaking memory so after awhile, you find that you should have about 50-60MB more RAM free than you actually do. The only reason I only went 2 years on this Win2k machine is that they gave me a new machine. I’ve been running Win2k on that machine since April without a single problem.
Man why did the Gods suddenly decide to pick on me of all people??? (and many of my friends too)
Probably because you have this mentality before you install it that something bad is going to happen, and so it does. Just like with anything else, if you look at something and project nothing but negativity, that’s exactly what you are going to get.
AdamW
Nero used to be a wonderful app but absolutely nothing useful has been added to it in several revisions while a lot of useless crap that clutters up the interface and slows the whole app down *has*.
Ever try Nero Recode? I consider that app to be pretty damn useful myself Anyway, when you talk about apps with extra frills, weren’t you the one praising Konquerer earlier because it had a built-in terminal emulator? What kind of need is that for a file manager?
I was with you until you said Microsoft contributed to the popularity of the Internet. That’s backwards. The Internet would have taken off regardless of what OS was dominant, or even if none were. The internet contributed to Microsoft by inspiring the sale of more computers. Microsoft on computers did not inspire the internet.
[QUOTE]Yes, it ran for 3 years without a crash running 40+ apps, but I didn’t say without a reinstallation.[/QUOTE]
I hate and mean HATE the M$ reinstall mentality, I have never reinstalled UNIX (TRU64 at the moment), could you imagine a 24×7 shop having an error and the tech going “you’ll have to reinstall the OS”, this is totally unexceptable. I have a games machine at home that runs XP and I have never had to reinstall the OS in the last 2 years, I’ve spent sometime pruning the registry after removing games and installing new hardware, but never the OS. If anybody tells me to reinstall the OS, I just ignore them because they have NFI.
[QUOTE]As I’ve said elsewhere, I really like Evolution, I think it’s one of the best OSS applications available (even if the design is largely just a copy of Outlook .[/QUOTE]
The only thing unique about outlook was its swanky menu, it now looks like all those mail clients that existed long before Outlook was purchased by M$. There is nothing revolutionary about this mail client, that wasn’t already implimented by companies like Pegasus or Eudora previously. As a PIM it has some unique qualities but as a mail client is just another follower.
The only thing unique about outlook was its swanky menu, it now looks like all those mail clients that existed long before Outlook was purchased by M$. There is nothing revolutionary about this mail client, that wasn’t already implimented by companies like Pegasus or Eudora previously. As a PIM it has some unique qualities but as a mail client is just another follower.
I was referring to the PIM aspect. Evolution is fundamentally a copy of Outlook.
That MESMERIC guy reminds me of this:
http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2384
I was referring to the PIM aspect. Evolution is fundamentally a copy of Outlook.
Funny that, it was writtem primarily to be a linux replacement of Outlook, complete with Exchange connector. But yes I would have to agree the PIM functions are very close, but then the question begs, which PIMS do things differently?
“Probably because you have this mentality before you install it that something bad is going to happen, and so it does.”
Wrong Darius.
I didn’t even know Linux existed for a very long time.
And it was like this – one day I vowed I would never touch a PC again – I dunno jump into music, travel the world, go wave-surfing.
And then I see an advertisment of Red Hat Linux 9 on the time for $30 very cheap.
I thought what do I have to lose – I was about to give my PC away in any case. So I’ve ordered that Red Hat Linux –
noone persuaded me or convinced me to do that- it was like a last experiement I guess. And I retained the computer, then discovering other distros/window managers/customizations and hacks and it has been a learning enjoyable experience since.
I am not a pessimist – cheering or hoping to have an installation go wrong – come on! My arse was on the line. I wasn’t even aware of any anti-MS propaganda. In fact I was curious – Wow is there *another* operating system then?
Noone “converted” me.
Nor do I want to “convert” anyone.
But Linux is under attack again and again that is my point. It’s very difficult to remain at peace knowing my fun can end tomorrow. By a greedy and evil corporation – that never done anything anyway but stolen ideas or shut down competitors.
As to Eclipse – I am sure 128 Mb RAM is just fine.
VS.NET 2003 – at least 256 Mb and it still crawls
Enterprise Manager another thing that crawls badly.
Eclipse = Free too.
I did not know at the time there were “free” anti virus solutions (are they powerful enough as well?). Now why is it MS doesn’t ship that with the OS?
By the way watchout with your reinstallations – you will get a nasty surprise when you find out you can’t reactivate it anymore.
But I guess most of Windows users don’t have legit software installed in any case
40+ application
you are either a millionaire
they were all shareware
or they are all but pirate copies – nice one.
Yep. Definitely down to a t.
http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2384
Mesmoric, your experience with windows was very similar to mine.
For a couple of weeks time I was having so much trouble getting windows to work on my computer.
I installed Win98 twice, each installation died within a week (became non-bootable)
Win 2000 wouldn’t even install, I even tried a barebones installation
WinXP installed, but died (became non-bootable) after I installed the first application and restarted.
We’ll since this had taken up about 2 weeks of my time, I vowed I would find an alternative or swear off computers. I found slackware Linux, and everything has been golden since.
No, I wasn’t the one praising konqueror. I use GNOME.
There’s a little app called Directory Opus v8
Tried it – Konq is, in my humble opinion, a superior application (though Directory Opus is miles ahead of Explorer, for sure). One thing I forgot to mention in Konqueror is the power of service menus – basically they’re customizable context menus for various file types. You want to rotate a picture, or convert it from jpeg or png? If you’ve installed the right service menu, just right-click on the image icon/thumbnail and select the appropriate menu item. Service menus are easy to create, so one can customize their own.
Oh, and having a command line in the browser may seem “linuxy”, but in fact it’s very useful – I’d love to have that feature with Windows/Internet Explorer.
‘ve also heard people say that K3b is better than Nero, but have never heard why?
The interface. It’s both simple to use, beautiful to look at, and powerful. It really is a gem of a program.
Oh, btw, I’d say Evo was more of an Outlook clone up to v1.4 or so – it really *did* look practically identical then. It’s diverging a little now, thanks to simplification of some aspects, removing the summary page, trying to follow the HIG, etc.
The Exchange / Outlook combination can have some nice benefits for sure, but it’s a classic Microsoft ‘lock-in’ model, which I don’t like. I’m not qualified to comment on what a good equivalent open-standards setup would be, though (mail servers make my head hurt).
Again, the biggest problem is that you’re trying to use Windows the same way you use Linux and KDE.
Well, I know that you’re alway looking to start long-winded discussions where you want to have the last word, unfortunately I don’t have time for that now. However, I will say that the original question was what power-users like better about Linux than Windows. So, yes, in fact to me Linux is better than Windows because Windows cannot be used like I use Linux/KDE. In other words, thanks for proving my point.
Again, a restriction of “out of the box” when talking about _power users_ is ridiculous.
No it isn’t, because often in Windows you are not allowed to install additional stuff if you don’t have Admin rights, which I don’t at my place of work (even though some programs, such as FireFox, can still be installed). So to me the fact that Directory Opus is a great replacement for Explorer is moot, because I can’t install it on the Windows computer I use the most.
Which important files ?
Oh, I don’t know, anything in C:WINNT?
No, you’re not. You’re talking about using it as a server. By definition.
A server/client desktop. Why must you be so nitpicky? That’s really annoying.
ZIP: Yes. TAR: No.
Funny, when I double click a zip file in Explorer it starts up Winzip (and, if Winzip isn’t installed, I can’t do anything).
Anyway, when you talk about apps with extra frills, weren’t you the one praising Konquerer earlier because it had a built-in terminal emulator? What kind of need is that for a file manager?
No, that was me. And Konq isn’t just a file manager, it’s a browser, in the largest sense of the word. You can browse files, web pages, devices, man pages, news, pop3 and imap folders, etc.
And a terminal emulator is very useful when you want to try something out of a web page without having to toggle between two windows, or re-arrange them so that they’re both visible at the same time. I also like to browse a ftp repository in the main window, listing it in detailed mode sorted from most recent to oldest, and use command-line urpmi to install the packages I want (it’s faster than the urpmi GUI frontend if there’s only a few packages I want).
It’s the kind of thing you don’t realize is that useful until you’ve actually started using it. But then again I don’t expect you to agree, since that would be against your religion… 🙂
But Linux is under attack again and again that is my point. It’s very difficult to remain at peace knowing my fun can end tomorrow. By a greedy and evil corporation – that never done anything anyway but stolen ideas or shut down competitors.
Good point. Whenever Linux enthusiasts decry the underhanded tactics used by MS to foster its monopoly, the MS apologists come out of the woodwork to denounce them as “zealots”, “fanatics” and so on.
Look, MS is an abusive monopoly who will stop at nothing to get what it wants. It’s normal for Linux enthusiasts to cry foul, and to denigrate them when they do is truly despicable. Rather than attack Linux users for speaking out for what they believe in, those who inconditionally defend MS (for free, no less) should rather ask the monopolist to play fair.
No it isn’t, because often in Windows you are not allowed to install additional stuff if you don’t have Admin rights, which I don’t at my place of work (even though some programs, such as FireFox, can still be installed). So to me the fact that Directory Opus is a great replacement for Explorer is moot, because I can’t install it on the Windows computer I use the most.
Of all the things you’ve managed to come up with so far, this would have to be one of the most ridiculous justifications I’ve ever seen.
Oh, I don’t know, anything in C:WINNT?
Regular users can’t delete such files. If they can, your system has been manually and deliberately miconfigured.
Funny, when I double click a zip file in Explorer it starts up Winzip (and, if Winzip isn’t installed, I can’t do anything).
Ah, I see, you’ve moved the goalposts yet again. It appears we should we be comparing a version of KDE dating back to 2000.
Of all the things you’ve managed to come up with so far, this would have to be one of the most ridiculous justifications I’ve ever seen.
It is not ridiculous, it is exactly the situation I find myself in. Out of the box, Linux gives me all the tools I need and I appreciate this as a power user. I can’t say the same thing for Windows.
Now if you would only come down from your high horse and stop being such a condescending prick, we could have a real discussion about real-world situations. But I doubt this will ever happen, as you’ve shown time and again that you are a contrarian whose only purpose on this site, it seems, is to start flamewars.
Regular users can’t delete such files. If they can, your system has been manually and deliberately miconfigured.
I’m talking basic Windows 2000 configuration, here. And IIRC, it was a problem with the first version of Windows XP as well. Meanwhile, ordinary users on a *nix system have never been able to delete important system files by mistake.
Ah, I see, you’ve moved the goalposts yet again. It appears we should we be comparing a version of KDE dating back to 2000.
I installed WinXP on a friend’s computer recently, and double-clicking on zip file didn’t do nothing. But don’t let facts get in the way of your addiction to incessant bickering.
Every system with XP installed I have ever used has been able to open zip files as if they were normal folders. Either that zip you tried wasnt a standard zip file or xp was fscked up
“Tried it – Konq is, in my humble opinion, a superior application (though Directory Opus is miles ahead of Explorer, for sure). One thing I forgot to mention in Konqueror is the power of service menus – basically they’re customizable context menus for various file types. You want to rotate a picture, or convert it from jpeg or png? If you’ve installed the right service menu, just right-click on the image icon/thumbnail and select the appropriate menu item. Service menus are easy to create, so one can customize their own”
Just what did you do with Dopus v8? You must have just installed it, looked at it and went no further. Dopus can do everything you mention above and a lot more! In fact every single thing you mention above is already in the Dopus v8 menus, plus a host of others can easily be configured!
Now I will admit that on first site Dopus can seem to overwhelm, however please don’t claim things about an application when it is obvious that you don’t know what you are talking about. Your own words speak volumes. In fact they make me wonder if you have even installed and used Dopus. Perhaps you looked at it’s default configuration to mimic explorer and that was is. Did you even look at the other setups, the tons of bells an whistles, the other configuration layouts, the prefs? Anything? I really don’t think that you did! I’ve used them both and Dopus is far superior to Konqurer. :/
[quote]One thing I forgot to mention in Konqueror is the power of service menus – basically they’re customizable context menus for various file types. You want to rotate a picture, or convert it from jpeg or png? If you’ve installed the right service menu, just right-click on the image icon/thumbnail and select the appropriate menu item. Service menus are easy to create, so one can customize their own.[/quote]
This doesn’t sound like anything you can’t do in Dopus. It has image manipulation tools built right in, and menus/toolbars/whatever can be customized/added to by alt-clicking on them and building them sort of like a VB app. All of the commands are made from a scripting language, and you can customize any menu in the program. Hell, even the status bar is customizable so you can add a lot of info about the files down there.
Dopus does FTP and has support for compressed files, but no web browser. Hell, I didn’t even use that feature in Explorer. It seemed a bit more handy in Konquerer, but considering the app was missing a List icon view and was slower than snot on a doorknob, Not only that, but the browser was only half-assed (at least compared to Gecko and Opera anyway). I usually found myself just dropping to a command-line when I needed to work with files because the file managers (both Konquerer and Bloatilus) were so frustrating to deal with.
Of course, I haven’t used Konq much since around KDE 3.1, so can’t really comment on its current incarnation, but I don’t recall being impressed with it at all.
BTW: XP does to zip natively, unless you disable it (one of those handy tweaks most people don’t know about.)
Good point. Whenever Linux enthusiasts decry the underhanded tactics used by MS to foster its monopoly, the MS apologists come out of the woodwork to denounce them as “zealots”, “fanatics” and so on.
I can’t speak for everyone, but I normally don’t go after them until they say something really stupid, and that happens quite a bit Not only that, but since most of us don’t care about religion, it’s also very annoying to hear them go through the same talking points over and over and over …
Look, MS is an abusive monopoly who will stop at nothing to get what it wants.
Welcome to Corporate America, my friend.
It’s normal for Linux enthusiasts to cry foul, and to denigrate them when they do is truly despicable.
I don’t really care what they say about MS. Hell, I even agree with them most of the time. But when they say stupid shit like it is impossible to secure a Windows box, that is when I give them a hard time, especially when they start hurling insults at people like me, as if I am just another sheep who is incapable of making intelligent decisions about the operating system I use. Basically, it’s the ‘my dick is bigger than yours’ mentality that a lot of Linux users have.
Rather than attack Linux users for speaking out for what they believe in, those who inconditionally defend MS (for free, no less) should rather ask the monopolist to play fair.
Well, for better or worse, corporations are in it to make money and don’t play fair. I’ve said before, when dealing with some money hungry corporation, whether or not you boycott them depends on how convenient it is for you. For example, I use MS products, but don’t buy CDs and don’t subscribe to cable for the same political reasons that many people don’t use MS products. When it comes to idealists, we all must choose our battles.
actually, choosing your battles would make you a pragmatist. *not* choosing your battles would make you an idealist.
Every system with XP installed I have ever used has been able to open zip files as if they were normal folders.
Well, now that you mention it, I didn’t bother to check if XP opened zips when I installed it, I instinctively installed Winzip. Unfortunately, like many corporate Windows users in North America, I’m still on Windows 2000. I’m happy to learn that WinXP opens zips natively by default, I can’t wait to upgrade at work.
Now, Explorer still sucks next to Konq and Directory Opus.
Just what did you do with Dopus v8? You must have just installed it, looked at it and went no further. Dopus can do everything you mention above and a lot more! In fact every single thing you mention above is already in the Dopus v8 menus, plus a host of others can easily be configured!
You’re right, I only played around.
Now I will admit that on first site Dopus can seem to overwhelm, however please don’t claim things about an application when it is obvious that you don’t know what you are talking about.
I did find the UI a bit overwhelming (another good point for Konq), but let me correct you right away: I NEVER claimed that Directory Opus didn’t do any of those things. Re-read what I wrote carefully:
“Tried it – Konq is, in my humble opinion, a superior application (though Directory Opus is miles ahead of Explorer, for sure). One thing I forgot to mention in Konqueror is the power of service menus
I wasn’t saying that Dopus didn’t have the equivalent functions, I just remembered that as one of the other reasons I preferred Konqueror over the basic Windows file explorer. If I could install Dopus at work, believe me, I would, but I can’t. I wasn’t claiming that Dopus couldn’t do image manipulation (I know it is one of the big selling point). My train of thought simply went from one idea to the next, and I’m sorry if it came across wrong.
Your own words speak volumes. In fact they make me wonder if you have even installed and used Dopus.
Now, now, I never have claimed to have installed Dopus. Stop putting words into my mouth. I said that I tried it. For what it’s worth, I prefer Konqueror, its UI and versatility and it does stuff that I need that Dopus don’t (notably the fish:/ protocol). Also, I don’t believe that Dopus can act as a web browser, can it?
Konq and Dopus are two very good apps. I prefer Konq, you prefer Dopus, let’s leave it at that.
Welcome to Corporate America, my friend.
Corporate America doesn’t mean lawlessness. See Enron, Worldcom, etc.
I live in Corporate America. It feeds me. Because of that I understand that rules and regulations are necessary to counter the basic defects of the corporate world, such as monopolies.
But when they say stupid shit like it is impossible to secure a Windows box, that is when I give them a hard time, especially when they start hurling insults at people like me, as if I am just another sheep who is incapable of making intelligent decisions about the operating system I use. Basically, it’s the ‘my dick is bigger than yours’ mentality that a lot of Linux users have.
Darius, there are trolls on both sides. There are at least as many on the Windows side as the Linux side. Both are idiots, except that one of the groups is basically doing the richest’s corporation in the world’s PR for them.
Now, I and many other Linux advocates on this thread – the majority I believe, have not said that it’s impossible to secure a Windows box. And as far as insults go, take a look at the moderated comments on this site: most of them are from anti-Linux posters (some even made racist remarks in a recent thread). It does seem to me that you are a little biases in your appraisal of the situation.
Meanwhile, I do buy CDs and have cable… 🙂
“Shouldn’t Microsoft be the one thanking its tax payers?”
Its tax payers? How in the heck does Microsoft collect taxes?!?
Man you should get a job at Microsoft because it seems like they always use people with opinion like yours for tehir propaganda.
First of all let me get some things straight. People that know Microsoft well enough do not hate the company for fun but because of their really nasty bussiness strategy. Over the years that have constantly devoured small companies that had the potential to become competition for some of their products. They certainly have the right to do so but that doesn not make then *god’s gift* by any standart. Microsoft has fought with teeth and claws to keep their position as a leading provider of software.
My biggest problem with your article is that you seem to not understand that if Microsoft hadn’t come along then there would have been some other company that would take their place and maybe do a better job. The reason why microsoft filled the void is that they were the first company to start selling OS without hardware and then they did everything possible to be the only company providiang software. Of cource that is up untill recently with the appearance of OSS.
No the other thing that you are mistaken about are OSS projects like GNOME and KDE. They work and look somewhat like Windows not because they needed to borrow the ideas from windows due to lack of their own ideas but because people are used to a certain way of doing things and the easiest way to convince them to switch is to offer something that is simmilar to what they are used to. I agree that some thing found in windows are probably the best approach available given a 2d desktop but those same ideas are found in many other OSes so your argument is really weak here.
You also apparently do not know that just before the release of windows 1.0 Microsoft was working with IBM on the development of OS2 and all of a sudden they decided to leave the group and start their own OS *borrowing* a lot of ideas and taking all the stuff that they have written with them. This is not that big of a deal if it was a once in a life time occurance for the company but bad decissions build up over time and they win a lot of bad reputaion for MS.
The best thing that MS has ever done to me is the introduction of MS Office and the introduction of the MS SDK. Those were the only trully inovative ideas to come from them and they are worth a lot more fame then they receive.
As far as security and windows goes I doubt it that the situation will ever improve. MS has the practice of fixing problems the cheapest possible way and cheapness started catching up with them. Also they tend to overuse ideas and this is really bad too. Especially when you are a company with a huge programmer base. One example of overusing ideas (really recent one) is DirectX and Xbox. I can’t wait untill the new xbox has to compeate with playstation 3. But that’s just my opinion.
Also when you talk about OSS project being dependant on MS keep in mind that the driving ideas behind the OSS movement are compleatelly different than those behind closed source software. OSS is dependant on big companies of you are talking about money because most programers get paid by companies like MS and work on OSS as a hobby.
In conclusion I would like to say that I don’t hate MS but I believe that it is time to add some diversity to the software world and if that means getting rid of MS because they won’t allow it or because they can’t stauck up to the competition so be it. I am perfectly happy with linux + Gnome/xfce4 even without the game/commercial software support.
Here read this, it tells you why IBM could not destroy M$
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/gatesivu.htm
Notable Quote
Q. In your deal with IBM, how much of a key was non-exclusivity-permitting you to sell DOS to other computer makers?
We knew there’d be clones. We had to decide what the seed corn for 16-bit personal computing would be. It made sense for IBM to be the seed corn, because they were not doing it in a way that would prevent other people from building compatible machines. The notion that we were going to license clones was an explicit part of the discussion, which they pushed us on. They said, no, why can’t we license and just pay you an additional fee whenever we license a clone? And we said, no way.
Also on another interesting thing it notes is this..
Our whole role was to provide the standard operating system so the software industry was hardware independent. You had to have pure hardware competition that was orthogonal from software innovation, so that people could do new models of hardware and applications guys didn’t have to rev [do an upgrade] for every new piece of hardware.
Mail:[email protected]
It’s gmail.com
A PC on every desktop is the thing which makes me hate Microsoft, that and that all the PCs run their bloody OS.
I live in Corporate America. It feeds me. Because of that I understand that rules and regulations are necessary to counter the basic defects of the corporate world, such as monopolies.
Yeah, so a few get prosecuted. But, you know what they say .. Corporate criminals are kind of like roaches in your house. If you happen to spot a few out in the open, it’s because there’s a ton of them in your walls and a few of them just got ‘exposed’ because of overcrowding.
Darius, there are trolls on both sides. There are at least as many on the Windows side as the Linux side. Both are idiots, except that one of the groups is basically doing the richest’s corporation in the world’s PR for them.
Actually, I think it is the Linux zealots who do most of the PR for Microsoft. Hell, they probably turn more people away from Linux than does XF86Config
Anyway, I know there are trolls on both sides and you know that as well, so stop pretending like the Linux trolls are the ‘innocent victims’ here.
Meanwhile, I do buy CDs and have cable… 🙂
In other words, you decry one criminal corporation while supporting others at the same time. That would make you a hypocrite. Of course, that doesn’t make you any different than me, so don’t take that remark personally. If I were to give up MS products, I would have to find a new job because if I were giving that up for ethical reasons, then I could no longer justify using it at work either. (Yeah, I say if you’re going to be an idealist, you either need to shit or get off the pot.) In other words, me abandoning Windows would be a major, life altering, pain in the ass thing to do. Not only because of the job situation, but because of the handful of apps I would lose that are very important to me. The only thing I had to do to give up CDs and cable was to tell the RIAA and Time Warner to go screw themselves As I said, it’s all a matter of convenience – we all have to pick our battles.
You also apparently do not know that just before the release of windows 1.0 Microsoft was working with IBM on the development of OS2 and all of a sudden they decided to leave the group and start their own OS *borrowing* a lot of ideas and taking all the stuff that they have written with them. This is not that big of a deal if it was a once in a life time occurance for the company but bad decissions build up over time and they win a lot of bad reputaion for MS.
And apparently you do not know that MS was working on windows while also working with IBM on OS/2. Windows 3.x came out while they were still working with ibm. I forget exactly when their partnership died though.
Microsoft *does* have positive qualities, as do most of the individual software products that they’ve produced over the years.
The problem with many of the comments made here is that they are sometimes either substantially incorrect (often either ignoring or reinterpreting history), or they make a number of assumptions which are arguably incorrect given a certain amount of exposure to other areas of the computer industry (or exposure to other platforms).
While there is some truth to the fact that a single unifying platform provides substantial benefits, I believe there are also a number of inherent risks present when one chooses to adopt a software monoculture.
While many of Microsoft’s products are “enabling” and allow users to perform sophisticated operations relatively easily, that power is often tied to assumptions about the security of the computing environment which are often no longer true in today’s connected computing world.
The software market can be a strange place even when it is “healthy”.
Right now, however, it seems that in many areas of the desktop software space there *is* no longer a software market in the traditional sense.
Instead, we have an incumbent monopolist (Microsoft) with an increasingly dominant position on the one hand, and we have a steadily increasing level of open source software development (which is largely occurring outside the marketplace) on the other.
I’ll leave it to others to determine if this is a good thing or not, since I think arguments could be made both ways.
Corporate criminals are kind of like roaches in your house. If you happen to spot a few out in the open, it’s because there’s a ton of them in your walls and a few of them just got ‘exposed’ because of overcrowding.
That doesn’t make it okay. You’re basically saying that, because it happens all the time, we shouldn’t denounce it. You’re basically condoning apathy.
Actually, I think it is the Linux zealots who do most of the PR for Microsoft. Hell, they probably turn more people away from Linux than does XF86Config
…just like MS zealots reinforce the opinion of those who dislike MS in the first place? (By the way, it’s called xorg.conf now…:-)
That said, I do not believe that zealots on either side have a negative effect on users considering to switch. This is a theory that’s often touted by those who criticize Linux enthusiasts, but I’ll believe it when I read a quote from a CTO that says “we would have gone with Linux, but some of the users are really rude.” What do you think would happen to a CTO that would make a strategic decision on such an irrelevant observation? He’d get fired in a minute…
In fact, I’m pretty certain that the effect of flamewars on market share is very close to nil. Flamewars happen all the time in other areas (game consoles comes to mind), and yet you’ll never see that as an argument against buying a console over another. You buy what best suits you, period – who cares about the Linux zealots or the MS trolls? So I think you should stop repeating that myth unless you have hard data to back it up (and saying “well, they’ve turned ME off of Linux” is worthless anectodal evidence, sorry).
Anyway, I know there are trolls on both sides and you know that as well, so stop pretending like the Linux trolls are the ‘innocent victims’ here.
Please don’t put words into my mouth. This is what I said: “There are at least as many on the Windows side as the Linux side. Both are idiots, except that one of the groups is basically doing the richest’s corporation in the world’s PR for them.”
I never claimed that Linux trolls are innocent victims. A little intellectual honesty, please! I stand by what I said: trolls on both sides of the fence are idiots, but at least the Linux trolls are defending a community of programmers and users, while MS trolls are defending the world’s biggest company per market cap (well, it may not be number one anymore, but it’s up there).
In other words, you decry one criminal corporation while supporting others at the same time. That would make you a hypocrite.
Darius, the problem with your posts is that you assume too many things. Not all CDs are published by “criminal corporations” – I by mostly from independant labels, as well as local stuff (I’m in Canada). And while I disagree with the approach that the recording industry has taken towards file-sharing, it is a fact that artists’ copyrights are being violated daily. Now, I believe there is a middle ground between what the RIAA/MPAA are advocating, and the complete lawlessness of music sharers. However, the situation is quite different from MS, so the analogy is faulty.
As far as cable is concerned, I’m not sure what your issue is. Then again, maybe it’s something that’s specific to US cable companies.
If I were to give up MS products, I would have to find a new job because if I were giving that up for ethical reasons, then I could no longer justify using it at work either. (Yeah, I say if you’re going to be an idealist, you either need to shit or get off the pot.) In other words, me abandoning Windows would be a major, life altering, pain in the ass thing to do.
Now, there is a difference between advocating the use of Linux and saying that people should abandon MS altogether. Hey, I still use MS Office even though I’m on Linux. I’m not an idealist, I’m a pragmatist with long-term vision. And to me, in the long-term, an abusive MS monopoly is not good for anyone but Microsoft. However, that doesn’t mean that MS should be eradicated – I just think it should no longer be a monopoly. I’m all for a diverse OS ecosystem, where no player has more than 30% of the market.
Not only because of the job situation, but because of the handful of apps I would lose that are very important to me.
Well, you know, apps come and go. Two years ago there were no professional-level audio and video apps for Linux, now there’s a lot of such projects quickly gaining maturity. However, you’re missing the point. No one but trolls will argue that no one should use Microsoft (or Linux, for that matter). What Linux enthusiasts complain about is Microsoft using dirty tricks to hang on to its monopoly status. We just want them to share the pie with us, and until they do we’ll continue to decry it in every way possible. Unfortunately, since MS is not above spreading lies about Linux to protect its monopoly, some Linux users will feel that this allows them to say lies about Windows. I don’t agree, however it is unfair to say that only MS is allowed to play dirty. Either neither sides are allowed to use FUD, or both sides are. You don’t seem like an unreasonable man (and I can’t be mad at someone who has the same name as my godson): can’t we at least agree on this?
The only thing I had to do to give up CDs and cable was to tell the RIAA and Time Warner to go screw themselves As I said, it’s all a matter of convenience – we all have to pick our battles.
True, however outside of the U.S. the RIAA and cable companies do not have the same kind of clout that MS does.
While many of Microsoft’s products are “enabling” and allow users to perform sophisticated operations relatively easily, that power is often tied to assumptions about the security of the computing environment which are often no longer true in today’s connected computing world.
The IBM Compats were never known for their ease of use. Look at any old game made for IBM and Atari/Amiga and you notice the trouble shooting is mostly for IBM while the trouble shooting for Atari and Amiga is simply junk like disconnecting exteral drives and rebooting while trouble shooting for DOS was stuff like play with config.sys
Even today MS has failed in making Windows a home OS that is easy to use like Atari and Amiga use to be. You can’t just plug your wintel in the wall boot it up and get right to work. If Windows was a true home OS you wouldn’t have to learn it as there wouldn’t be much to it just like there isn’t much for a newbie to learn about Mac OS X unless you want to get your hand dirty.
That doesn’t make it okay. You’re basically saying that, because it happens all the time, we shouldn’t denounce it. You’re basically condoning apathy.
No, I’m siimply saying that most (if not all) corporations do (or would do) the same kinds of things, even if they don’t get caught or convicted. For this reason, there’s really no reason to single out Microsoft and pick on them exclusively. Microsoft is really no different than anyone else, they are just a manifestation of a corporation just a little more ‘realized’ than anything we’re used to seeing.
(By the way, it’s called xorg.conf now…:-)
Oh, sorry .. I’m behind the times
I never claimed that Linux trolls are innocent victims. A little intellectual honesty, please!
You made it sound like the ‘attacks’ are completely one-sided. But go to a site such as ZDNet and take a look at almost any Microsoft-related article. Usually in a short amount of time, the Linux jockeys are all over it. Again, I know it works both ways, which was my whole point to begin with.
I said: trolls on both sides of the fence are idiots, but at least the Linux trolls are defending a community of programmers and users, while MS trolls are defending the world’s biggest company per market cap.
For all of their wrong doings, I think sometimes they are worth defending. While they should be properly dissed for things they do wrong (such as bullying OEMs to keep competing operating systems off of new computers), I’m not sure if it’s really fair to just stand aside and nod in agreement while some anti-MS folks make up all kinds of crazy shit about them that has little-to-no basis in reality whatsoever. One of my favorites is when they accuse MS of artifically bloating their software in order to make Intel happy.
Not all CDs are published by “criminal corporations” – I by mostly from independant labels, as well as local stuff (I’m in Canada).
Sorry, I assumed it was implied that I meant CDs from major music studios.
And while I disagree with the approach that the recording industry has taken towards file-sharing, it is a fact that artists’ copyrights are being violated daily.
It is also a fact that people’s fair use rights are being violated on a daily basis.
Now, I believe there is a middle ground between what the RIAA/MPAA are advocating, and the complete lawlessness of music sharers.
The middle ground is to boycott all of their products and stop stealing t hem, therefore putting these assholes out of business forever. As far as the MPAA and RIAA are concerned, we just don’t need them anymore.
However, the situation is quite different from MS, so the analogy is faulty.
How so?
As far as cable is concerned, I’m not sure what your issue is. Then again, maybe it’s something that’s specific to US cable companies.
In the US, at least everywhere I’ve lived, you usually only have one choice for cable, unless you live in a place (ie – not in an apartment) where you can get satellite. Adding to that, the cable companies charge and outrageous amount of money. Anything past basic (which gives you little more than the broadcast channels) is going to run you at least $45 a month. Not only that, but the ones I’ve had experience with are very dishonest in their dealings.
Now, there is a difference between advocating the use of Linux and saying that people should abandon MS altogether.
I seem to run into the latter much more than the former.
And to me, in the long-term, an abusive MS monopoly is not good for anyone but Microsoft.
So, what do you suppose we do? Drop Windows altogether? I think we’ve already had that discussion.
However, that doesn’t mean that MS should be eradicated – I just think it should no longer be a monopoly. I’m all for a diverse OS ecosystem, where no player has more than 30% of the market.
In other words, you want to turn this into a socialist kind of thing where anybody who gets more than 30% marketshare is disbanded by the government?
Well, you know, apps come and go. Two years ago there were no professional-level audio and video apps for Linux, now there’s a lot of such projects quickly gaining maturity.
And you can be sure I’ll be watching with much interest. But I’m not going anywhere until these apps are at least as good as, if not better than the ones I’m already using.
What Linux enthusiasts complain about is Microsoft using dirty tricks to hang on to its monopoly status. We just want them to share the pie with us, and until they do we’ll continue to decry it in every way possible.
I’m sorry, but they’re not going to do that unless forced to. And the only way they’ll be forced to is if they are made to do so by the government (fat chance) or else if the competition builds something that is so compelling, people will want to switch. Take Firefox for example – when you build a clearly superior app, people will use it. (It’s too bad it took them approx 5 years to build it while MS sat on their laurels, but that is beside the point.)
Either neither sides are allowed to use FUD, or both sides are.
I would tend to agree with this, but I think it is more of an issue with people speaking out of ignorance than purposely spreading FUD. For example, a lot of people say (and something I agree with) is that installing apps in Linux can be a pain in the ass. But some people contend that some/most distros offer ‘easy as pie’ installation methods so getting the latest version of any app should never be a problem. So, which side is right? Is there a single distro out there that would make installing any app I want a breeze? Something I’ve thought about doing is to pick 20 Linux apps at random and offer $1,000 to anyone who could point me to a distro that I could install the latest version of all these apps without having to jump through hoops, such as having to hunt for a different repository, compiling from source, etc.
No, I’m siimply saying that most (if not all) corporations do (or would do) the same kinds of things, even if they don’t get caught or convicted. For this reason, there’s really no reason to single out Microsoft and pick on them exclusively. Microsoft is really no different than anyone else, they are just a manifestation of a corporation just a little more ‘realized’ than anything we’re used to seeing.
I disagree – Microsoft isn’t just any company, it’s a monopoly with a known history of abuse. Throughout history, abusive monopolies have often been legislated against for the good of industry in general. There are lots of reason to pick on MS, because few other companies have such extensive monopolies, and abuse their monopoly power to try to extend it to other areas of business.
Again, I know it works both ways, which was my whole point to begin with.
All right, then let’s all agree that trolls are better left ignored, whether they’re pro-MS or pro-Linux…
Sorry, I assumed it was implied that I meant CDs from major music studios.
Don’t assume too much! 🙂
It is also a fact that people’s fair use rights are being violated on a daily basis.
Indeed, so we need to find a solution where both copyrights and fair use are respected. My own take: give the virtual, sell the material. Give away the music, but sell nice artifacts (boxed sets, posters, nice books with lyrics, etc.). My favorite example is the special “book” edition of Kid A by Radiohead. I’m not a huge Radiohead fan, and I already had a copy of Kid A, but the book edition was so nice that I bought another copy.
You’ll never be able to stop file-sharing, but at the same time it’s not possible to easily reproduce nice artifacts. Sure, the profit margins will be lower, and some music industry bigshot will have to revise their standard of living – to which I say: “that’s life!”
“However, the situation is quite different from MS, so the analogy is faulty.”
How so?
Microsoft controls the OS, which is at the foundation of the computer. The RIAA is powerful, but it doesn’t have the same level of control on Music that MS has on Computing, especially if you consider the issue on an international level.
In other words, you want to turn this into a socialist kind of thing where anybody who gets more than 30% marketshare is disbanded by the government?
Of course not. I simply indicated my preference of an ideal situation. Just like if I said “I wish there were less income inequalities in North America”, that doesn’t mean I’m for robbing the rich.
Although, you must realize that being from Canada, I am a socialist, at least in the eyes of right-wing Americans… 🙂 For the record, I am a Left Libertarian (see http://www.politicalcompass.org/ for more details).
There are other ways than coercition, such as tax incentives, grants, and other ways to foster competition. Governments opting for open standards and file formats would be a huge step in the right direction.
Actually, MS’s monopoly relies on the Office file formats being closed. I would favor the government forcing MS to open up these file formats and presto! the abusive monopoly would be a lot less powerful.
I’m sorry, but they’re not going to do that unless forced to. And the only way they’ll be forced to is if they are made to do so by the government (fat chance)
I gather you are unfamiliar with America’s favorite pasttime, i.e. lawsuits. Monopolies are often the target of lawsuits because they’re so rich it makes them appealing targets. Grassroots efforts (look at what the Groklaw people are doing) also helps. The one thing large corporations don’t like is bad PR – if they do illegal/unfair things, then it’s up to ordinary citizens to decry and denounce it – the resulting bad PR will often be more effective than lawsuits and government intervention.
It does seem as if you’re saying that we shouldn’t even bother denouncing MS dirty tricks because “it’s the nature of business” and “everyone does it”…I’m sorry, but I can’t accept that. I will continue to criticize MS, even at the risk of overcrticizing it (hey, they can defend themselves), because I feel it’s my duty as a citizen that’s concerned about the future of this industry. You can disagree, but so far you’ve failed to convince me that I should stop doing it…
For example, a lot of people say (and something I agree with) is that installing apps in Linux can be a pain in the ass. But some people contend that some/most distros offer ‘easy as pie’ installation methods so getting the latest version of any app should never be a problem. So, which side is right? Is there a single distro out there that would make installing any app I want a breeze?
Well, if an app isn’t available for a particular distro, then of course installing it is going to be hard – but hey, there are some apps that work well in a certain version of Windows and don’t work well with another!
Personally, this is the main reason I use Mandrake (though I hear Debian’s pretty good for that as well): their software repository is HUGE. Over the past two years, I can count on one hand the number of apps that I couldn’t easily install through urpmi (or rpmdrake, it’s GUI front-end). Sometimes, I had to wait a week or two. Very few apps I had to install using ./configure, make, make install, and as it turns out I’ve never kept any of them because they weren’t very good.
If you were to really pick 20 apps at random (not hand-picking them) and asked if I could install them using a single repository (I use http://ftp.proxad.net exclusively), then you’d quickly be out of $1,000! 🙂
Meanwhile, can you point a single place to me where I can get ALL of my Windows apps? If you’re going to set the bar that high for Linux, you have to set it just as high for Windows…
It is not ridiculous, it is exactly the situation I find myself in. Out of the box, Linux gives me all the tools I need and I appreciate this as a power user. I can’t say the same thing for Windows.
Talk to your IT department. If they won’t let you install stuff on your machine then you shouldn’t be doing it under Linux either.
If the software you’re trying to install requires elevated privileges to install when it logically shouldn’t, that’s the software developer’s fault.
Now if you would only come down from your high horse and stop being such a condescending prick, we could have a real discussion about real-world situations.
Your real world situations very rarely seem to coincide with the real world.
But I doubt this will ever happen, as you’ve shown time and again that you are a contrarian whose only purpose on this site, it seems, is to start flamewars.
And you’re just here to post crap, then criticise people for being contrary and “having to have the last word” when they disagree.
I’m talking basic Windows 2000 configuration, here. And IIRC, it was a problem with the first version of Windows XP as well.
No, it’s wasn’t. Nor was it a problem with Windows 2000. Nor was it a problem with Windows NT4. Nor any other version of Windows NT.
The likely explanation is that you’ve installed to a FAT32 drive, in which case you can hardly blame the OS for not being able to enforce file permissions on a filesystem that doesn’t support them.
I installed WinXP on a friend’s computer recently, and double-clicking on zip file didn’t do nothing. But don’t let facts get in the way of your addiction to incessant bickering.
Well, Windows XP has handled ZIP files from day one, so I don’t know what’s wrong with your friends PC, but it isn’t normal behaviour. HOwever, don’t lets facts get in the way of your incessant bitching.
Hey, I know, maybe I should grossly misconfigure some Linux machines and bitch about how much Linux sucks based on the things that don’t work on them ? Fair ?