Mockup updates
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
…a developer has finally figured out what I’ve been saying for years. A Linux *based* Operating System instead of a another YALDBOALDBUADDEBD*. Can’t wait for this to mature a bit more.
*(Yet Another Linux Distribution Based On Another Linux Distribution But Using A Different Desktop Environment By Default)
I looked at the project’s webpage a while back and thought it wasn’g going anywhere.. I’ll download and see what the beta is like!
I agree that the concept it is better than the average “Just another Linux Distro”, but it won’t solve any problems, in fact it will create more. A third major Desktop which needs programs, maybe a new packaging system, etc. …
Guess I’ll have to wait and see. To me it seems as though they might be headed exactly 180 degrees from where I think the best direction would be. I’m not sure I want to limit my choices to what a developer feels is the right application for my needs.
Choice is the cornerstone of the software industry in general, and the FOSS community specifically, I don’t think taking that away is the answer. I think finding a better way to give the choice, and a clear way of implementing it is the real answer. So while I think one of their goals is certainly increased usability, I think it comes at to great a cost.
It is a pity BeOS is declining (or possibly terminal)& Mockup has evolved from away from the BeOS line.
As garrett says, choice is key. (period)
I will give BeOS-Max a go one weekend & possibly try Zeta – but it ain’t free
may be mockup is the way forward – a chimeric son of BeOS & GNU/linux, hopefully with the best of both worlds
I am glad the developer didn’t just pack up his bags & give up……
Now where’s that blank CD-R?
osnews should do an article on the great but not well known technology that is plone/silva and zope.
i think even from an OS perspective – zope is very interesting, load balancing, scaling to clusters, object databases …
and plone is a very powerful cms system.
No X for me with this live CD… damn. defeats the purpose since I can’t try Mockup now.. oh well
X fails for me to, at least using Qemu.
“We’ll maintain a list of banned dependencies and packages (this list will contain KDE, GNOME and GTK+ stuff).
If the user is going to install a package that depends on a banned package an error dialog box should warn the user saying “This application is not designed to run on Mockup”. The mockup-base package should conflicts with banned packages.” — http://www.mockup.org/specifications/parck/
No dependencies on Gnome, KDE, or gtk are going to be allowed. There go 90% of existing Linux desktop apps, and along with them most of the benefit of using Linux + X11 instead of a custom OS.
to be honest the FAQ sounds very arrogant and dismissive of projects like KDE and Gnome. It is al right to point out shortcomings of other projects but the way it is done here sounds arrogant and more like marketing spin thabn anything else. And as already has been poijted out choice is good … personally i think gnome is a very usable desktop with very sane defaults. anyway will be interresting to follow and see how it develops
I really prefer Gtk+ over Qt, mostly because of licensing issues. Though I release any software I make under the GPL or similar license, it is important to allow 3rd parties to create Commercial software, and Gtk+ provides that. The GPL is great for programs, and the LGPL is great for libraries that you want to keep sacred in its own right, but still provide the freedom to create what you want on top of it.
Yeah, i agree. I was positive to Mockup until i read the FAQ. It does seem really arrogant.
Why is the FAQ arrogant? I fail to see the arrogance– all I can see are critical notes directed at other projects, and as far as I know, these notes are fairly in touch with reality.
Some critizism never hurt nobody.
Also, X won’t start because there’s no WM on the live-cd– there’s just X. The live-cd is only a beta of Mockup’s foundation.
black background bash prompt.
“nice”, didn’t work at all… tested on 3 pc’s with 3 different arch and graphic cards (2 workstations, 1 notebook)
I really prefer Gtk+ over Qt, mostly because of licensing issues. Though I release any software I make under the GPL or similar license, it is important to allow 3rd parties to create Commercial software, and Gtk+ provides that. The GPL is great for programs, and the LGPL is great for libraries that you want to keep sacred in its own right, but still provide the freedom to create what you want on top of it.
The FAQ states that they prefer C++ over C, but your licensing concerns remain valid. Maybe they should use the FOX toolkit unless they want it to remain a hobbyist project.
GTK+ has a C++ binding called gtkmm.
Based on the screen shots, it looks like a very clean desktop and it is based on the 2.6 kernel. Seems like this project might develop slowly, however; it seems like there is a lot of promise with what they have created so far.
No, I haven’t check out the mailing lists. This is an opinion solely based on news postings. So basically I could be way off base.
I downloaded the ISO and fired it up. Nowhere does it say “The LiveCD is just the foundation. It doesn’t have any GUI.”
This is incredibly confusing because I expected to pop in the CD, reboot, and be presented with the nice window manager in the picture on the front page (as did others here).
When that didn’t happen I figured ‘oh well, let’s try startx’
Much to my dismay, the CD is pretty much baren. It has a base system with no window manager. Perhaps this should have been included in the announcement of the beta? Perhaps the image on the front page should indicate that it is a conceptual design of what the WM will look like when complete.
I am confused about this too.
How does developer have screenshots of what he has done so far?
How come the screenshot look like a metacity/GTK product rather than QT?
The picture on the frontpage is no screenshot, just a mockup of how they want it to look like somewhen. The actual screenshots under Gallery look like some strange combination of Gnome (window borders), Windows (dialogs and widgets) and BeOS (icons).
If the livecd is really meant to have no graphical desktop whatsoever it is really useless and that should be pointed out at their website.
FH Can’t wait for this to mature a bit more.
The shunning of both the GTK and KDE libraries means no broad application collection for years to come. If this is to reach the levels of GNU/Linux now, we’ll probably be 6 to 8 years further (maybe this is even a bit optimistic).
Tim I agree that the concept it is better than the average “Just another Linux Distro”, but it won’t solve any problems, in fact it will create more. A third major Desktop which needs programs, maybe a new packaging system, etc. …
The problem of all startup OSes. Not supporting stock GNU/Linux apps will give Mockup its own feel, but also an anemic software supply.
Lumbergh Based on QT? Probably want to rethink that depending on whether this is a hobbyist project or it has long term goals.
Not tapping into the vast repository of FOSS applications will mean this OS will grow very slowly, so it’ll be hobbyist for the foreseeable future.
Anonymous (IP: —.client.comcast.net) No dependencies on Gnome, KDE, or gtk are going to be allowed. There go 90% of existing Linux desktop apps, and along with them most of the benefit of using Linux + X11 instead of a custom OS.
Very true. But even if a custom kernel and base system were written, it would have to get Apps. Linux as a base for now takes care of most of the kernel development. Although I wonder how Mockup will cope with the planned tightening of the bonds between Linux, X.org and the Gnome and KDE DE’s. Then again, there is always the possibility of thirdparty support for Gnome and KDE dependancies, that opens up Mockup to those apps that “should be banned”. It is FOSS afterall.
Anonymous (IP: —.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net) Based on the screen shots, it looks like a very clean desktop and it is based on the 2.6 kernel. Seems like this project might develop slowly, however; it seems like there is a lot of promise with what they have created so far.
The imagery looks nice, clean and usable. Time will tell if Mockup comes out of the mockup stage and delivers something for day to day use. Only problem for me with Mockup is that the Gnome and KDE apps form a lockin of their own. Giving up a wealth of apps just to use a slick, glitzy desktop is a bit much. Nobody uses an OS purely in itself.
John Blink How come the screenshot look like a metacity/GTK product rather than QT?
Probably through the inspiration that BeOS brought. BeOS was/is more towards the “Mac OS style” (like Gnome), than toward the “Windows style”. I like the clean look of it, but then again, I’m a recent Gnome convert, so “Gnomish” looking DE’s please the eye
.
May be I’ll wait for a Beta with a GUI….
may be it should have been an alpha release so expectations would not have been too high
I also had a feeling that they were acting a bit arrogant in their FAQ. Saying things like “Look at Ubuntu, there’s a lot of hype for this project but it’s only a Debian SID with GNOME by default.”
If they don’t think Ubuntu is a valid project then state specific reasons why. I run debian and have tried Ubuntu and I did not feel it was just stock debian sid. They added some good features such as the places menu reorganized the menus quite a bit. I realize it is still pretty close to debian but really that is more because it is Gnome. From what I have read much of what Ubuntu has done has been behind the scenes in how hardware detection and things like HAL/D-BUS work. In any sense, I did think it was pretty arrogant to say they were nothing but hype with nothing new to offer.
In any sense I do wish them luck but I would hope they reconsider some of their comments regarding other projects. I think valid critisms are good but they provide very little details regarding their problems with Gnome and KDE other than they don’t like Gnome defaults and KDE has too much junk. Specfic areas of improvement and use cases would be a much more effective means of criticism and it would also help users understand the goals of Mockup more clearly.
> Specfic areas of improvement and use cases would be a much more effective means of criticism
Undoubtedly, but in all fairness I have to point out they are not running a review or opinion site. They have their own project, and that’s what their website should be about, rather than shortcomings of other projects. I feel it’s fair enough for them to state in the FAQ, “we dont use something because we don’t like it” – detailed analysis of *why* they don’t like it is beyond the scope of the article.
What really interests me about Mockup is their use of Electra – I remember reading about it a while ago and thinking, “I wish somebody would actually put this into practice!”…
Shame about the lack of GUI on that beta, if I understand you guys correctly. I think I’ll wait for the next release in this case.
so, just the foundations. I wish that would’ve been specified somewhere on the download page, or in the empty mailing list archives
As for “why no gnome, kde, whatever”.. well it’s not a Linux distro. From what I gather, Mockup will be an opeating system with a Linux kernel and some stuff, but not a Linux distribution. That’s all. I say godspeed
If the livecd is really meant to have no graphical desktop whatsoever it is really useless and that should be pointed out at their website
I agree, I wasted 185MB of bandwidth for a shell prompt on a black background.
Otherwise, no I don’t theing his FAQ is arrogant, he just states the faults with other projects which are true.
Sorry, I meant, I don’t think his FAQ is arrogant…
sorry but calling a project like ubuntu “hype” when your own project does not even have a GUI yet in my view is arrogant.
Also to say that they will producce software for musicians etc. without having a GUI yet seems like a lot of marketing spin to me.
Anyway they seem to contradict themselves
<<GNOME is going to kill choice by forcing users with GNOME’s defaults that sometimes are not sane for all the people.<<
at the same time
<< Mockup users should use Mockup while its developers must choose the best sound system to let you play music and enjoy yourself.>>
i don’t get it – Gnome chooses not sane defaults and kills choice, yet they will restrict the choice of software on their system.
They will have a problem with positioning their product … users are not a homogenous group of people, areason why choice and so many different applications for the same job is not a bad thing.
Having said all that, it is a good thing that projecyts like mockup exist – choice is good and maybe some of the ideas of mockup will flow back into some other projects.
Well ….
This is getting /very/ interesting actually… A clean OS+Desktop solution, very polished (and beaty!) GUI, very cleaver program instalation e restricted policies (less chances for dependency hell, less dependencies, etc…)… Not a common linux disto at all…
Well, it’s all plans for now, but interesting ones… looking foward!
I’m sorry if I was not clear.
This night (hoping there’s not a lot of ice in the street) I’ll be at home very soon so I will have time to create a package for Qt4 and work on the installer.
To start a new, desktop today is doomed, no matter how good it looks. In fact I even doubt that some DEs that currently have quite high number of users will make it.
My guess is that in a few years the desktop battle will be between Longhorn, MacOS-X and Gnome. Sure QT is a much better toolkit than gtk but even so, I don’t think KDE will make it. They doesn’t seem to be able to decide wether they make their DE for geeks or for noobs and this will cause them irreparable damage. Things like a free Solaris will further strengthen that trend. We even see signs that Novell is moving towards Gnome. E.g. they intend to port Evolution to windows, their ifolder and some of their other mono stuff requires gtk and so on.
This means that these guys will be much on their own in developing software. If QT based KDE had been a success they could have relied on a few people running their pure QT apps within KDE and thus get more interested in the full OS. But if most people doesn’t even have QT installed that will not happen.
By the time they get enough apps to the needs of everyday use they will have a just as hard battle to enter whatever desktop that is dominant at that time as varios Linux desktops have today breaking the Microsoft barrier.
The best thing these guys can hope for, is that they inspire developers of more frequently used desktops to improve.
Creating a desktop that looks like BEOS is jut not good IMO – I always complain that Windows is ugly but BEOS is just too, well, toy-like. If you’re going to make a new desktop, at least try to make it look professional.
Just my opinion.
Maybe GNOME gets more corporate support then KDE now, but that does not mean that KDE is doomed.
KDE developers are working on improving usability, it just needs time. Right now some developers on kde-core-devel discuss, if there should be a UI review before a release. There is also a discussion on kde-usability if the menuebars on top of the windows should be replaced by a menubar on top of the screen like in MacOS because it is better from a usability point of view. Also some people are writing a KDE HIG. These are only some examples and more usability work is done.
GNOME could proceed faster with their usability work because they got a lot of corporate support from SUN and RedHat and KDE didn’t and there are not that many usability experts in the OSS community. But that does not have to be a bad thing in the long run. Because of that, the community has much more influence on the direction KDE is going to take, then they had on the direction GNOME was going to take.
Also a lot of accessibility work is done in KDE and KDE4 can probably use the GNOME accessibility infrastructure.
Personally I think the involvement of SUN and Novell and some other companies with Linux in general and the Linux desktop specifically is a soap bubble anyway. Sooner or later they will realise that they cannot make a lot of money selling Linux desktops and I suppose they will just stop their involvement then. And for the home users these companies are irrelevant anyway because they are not interested in home users.
Trolltech on the other hand does earn some money from Qt because they have a sane business model. Some people might not like the dual license of Qt, but it does work out for them. And as long as Trolltech is developing Qt, KDE has a good base which they can build upon.
Maybe GNOME will be the relevant corporate desktop in the future. But that does not mean that KDE is doomed and I think KDE will stay a viable alternative for home users in the future. FWMN, Windowmaker, Xfce and Co. are not irrelevant just because they don’t get support from Novell and Sun.
KDE developers are working on improving usability, it just needs time. Right now some developers on kde-core-devel discuss, if there should be a UI review before a release. There is also a discussion on kde-usability if the menuebars on top of the windows should be replaced by a menubar on top of the screen like in MacOS because it is better from a usability point of view. Also some people are writing a KDE HIG. These are only some examples and more usability work is done.
Sure, a Mac-like menubar would be a big improvement on usability. But for that to work they need to get at least the Gnome people on board. KDE doesn’t have enough applications to make it on its own (neither has Gnome for that matter). Other important apps would be the mozilla suit and OpenOffice. One problem is that it may make it harder to port apps to windows. To have even the slightest chance against windows a lot of corporate support is needed. Currently KDE, this new Mock thing lacks this.
Maybe GNOME will be the relevant corporate desktop in the future. But that does not mean that KDE is doomed and I think KDE will stay a viable alternative for home users in the future. FWMN, Windowmaker, Xfce and Co. are not irrelevant just because they don’t get support from Novell and Sun.
The sad thing is, what people use at work, will be what they use at home, regardless if it will be some future version of windows or something else. And if they don’t use it at work there will be little money in developing software for it, and we can’t expect to get things like Dreamweaver, or Adobe products to get ported the same wil go for games. So in that sense KDE is doomed if the current trend with corporate support for gnome continues.
KDE is over eight years old now. It existed for eight years without much corporate support. It was mainly developed by an enthusiastic community and I am sure this community will continue to develop KDE. KDE today is better then ever before, it gets faster every release, the applications get better and better and some of the KDE applications are even the best available for linux (k3b and amoroK come to mind here). I really don’t think KDE is going away any time soon.
I would also like to see more cooperation between KDE and GNOME. It would be great if KDE applications could use the GNOME fileselector when run under GNOME and the other way round. And I also think that something like a MacOS style menu can only be done when all major desktop environments and also Mozilla and Open Office will implement it. But that is what freedesktop.org is for.
Personally I think there is only one thing GNOME is really better at: publicity. GNOME people are advertising GNOME features everywhere and there are lots and lots of articles about GNOME. KDE could really learn from that. Besides that I think GNOME is still not better then KDE, even with large corporate funding. But it will be interesting if a mainly community driven project like KDE can keep up with a heavily corporate supported project like GNOME.
Pier Luigi Fiorini: Said “I’m sorry if I was not clear.”
One thing sticks out at me:
If the Live CD has a GUI then please let us know how to start it.
Is The picture on the homepage Web site real? or a “Mockup”?
If it’s not real I would recommend labeling it — “Not an actual shot. This was done in Gimp”
Good luck.
KDE is doomed is it? Whats next? Openoffice/Firefox/Thunderbird too? Don’t bother posting stuff like that. Try and be a little more subtle and put your opinions in some context. Try something like this: “Oh I think Gnome will probably do better than KDE over the next couple years because of corp support yadayada in the small business or enterprise sectors…because of this…that…”