There’s an article up with a quote from Steve Wozniak, where he publicly chastises Apple for their lawsuits against the canadian student being sued by Apple Computer for leaking a build of 10.4, and will be donating money to the student’s defense. It doesn’t just stop there. Some of the biggest names in the Mac world are also listed with quotes, and the general consensus is “He made a mistake, but Apple is going too far”.
The guy leaked a copy of a build that he didn’t have rights to. The problem with leaking those product information releases is that they are giving out trade secrets. Apple needs to be able to keep control over the information about their products in development if they don’t want to make them go public. The employee who is doing it no doubt signed a contract saying that they wouldn’t.
I’m glad the public hasn’t been getting on Apple’s case for “suing the little guy” like so many journalists tried to spin it.
Apple is totally within its right to do this… we all agree on that, but more to the point… they SHOULD do it because find it hard to believe that the defendants didn’t realize that what they were doing was wrong. In recent interviews that they gave, they tried to make it sound as if this were just innocent trading… as if the vast majority of people trade this software for a profit. In that regard, EVERYBODY that pirates is an innocent trader.
If left unlitigated, this would have been left on the bit torrent for months, doing FAR more damage to the OSes potential sales than if a company were to not pay for software… which is what some people are saying is the real bad guy that companies in Apple’s position are supposedly supposed to be going after.
I say don’t make this guy an example alla Kevin Mitnick, but don’t go light on him either. If you’re going to risk it… you have to be prepared for the consequences.
It’s funny– I was driving down this street and all of a sudden a police officer pulled me over and said I was speeding! Apparently I was in a 45 zone and not a 55 zone. When I explained to the officer that I had not bothered to read the posted speed limit, he gave me the ticket any way!
Maybe Steve Wozniak will pay the ticket for me! Afterall, I’m an honest guy…
Are they actually trying to get money out of the guy or will they satisfied with a cease and desist?
This guy obviosly didn’t do right. A guy like this will ruin it for the rest of us. Apple may not release anything in the future, because what he did with this beta copy. Adobe is doing the samething with it’s beta testers, they go after spoilers. You just can’t leak intellectual property out! The guy was under an agreement not to.
If left unlitigated, this would have been left on the bit torrent for months, doing FAR more damage to the OSes potential sales than if a company were to not pay for software… which is what some people are saying is the real bad guy that companies in Apple’s position are supposedly supposed to be going after.
begin sarcasm:
Yeah, a lot of the apple fans I know would have used beta quality software because they aren’t used to paying for software
-b
That’s *software* we’re talking about. That’s just a bloody software! It’s not like that guy has killed people or offended anyone… Geez, that is exactly the reason why everyone should use open-source software. Some companies are starting to go crazy over something that you cannot even touch!
Mac Community revolts?? Are these even big players in the Mac Community? Woz is cool, but is he even on the map anymore? I don’t think so! He’s collecting dust like old star trek figures in the closet. He played a big part in earily Apple, but not now.
These are maybe a sub-culture of the Mac Community if that.
If Adobe, MS, Discreet, and at least thousands of the Artist that use OS X stands up behind the guy,,,that that would be some of the community,,,,a small portion.
Let the guy do this to MS, see what happens!
Yeah, because everyone can touch religion, and there’s never been a conflict over that.
Buck,
yes, he didn’t kill anyone… but then that explains why they’re not implying a punishment for that sort of thing.
While I like open source software too… I know that if I want to use proprietary software, I must follow their rules… and I’m okay with that. If you’re not… then don’t… or beware of the reprocutions… (and don’t go crying to the media that you’re just an innocent downloader)
apple is within its rights? sure. Apple is sane? heck, no. They’re not just trying to get the guy to stop, or even suing him for *punitive* or *compensatory* damages – they’re claiming *exemplary* damages, which are basically damages pour encourager les autres, and are typically at least used against someone who has a cat in hell’s chance of paying them. This poor sod is a student who spread a beta of a product he loved around some friends who wanted to try it out, and Apple want to force him into penury to make an ‘example’ out of him? Well, it certainly gives me an ‘example’ of Apple’s corporate attitude. Hell, even Microsoft doesn’t sue the people who leak Longhorn betas. This is a PR disaster in the making.
“That’s *software* we’re talking about.”
I agree, it’s like wheat to a farmer, they make money on it. They have peole planting the fields, like companies have people writing source code. So it’s not just “software”, it’s a product that took many people who are paid to develope it. Let the guy used Opensource than, and not anything else. Than it wouldn’t happen.
“Are these even big players in the Mac Community?”
I know you’re trying to imply that Apple’s install base is small because their market share is small.
Let me clue you in… market share is not install base. Because Mac users don’t replace their computers as frequently as Windows PC users… market share (which only gauges sales) will be smaller, but don’t let that imply that Apple is in any way a small player. Not by a long shot. Your post is thinly veiled FUD that would have gon unnoteced by the masses on this site had I not broken it down for everybody.
Stop that.
If left unlitigated, this would have been left on the bit torrent for months
Uh, no. That’s what Cease and Desist letters are for.
“This poor sod is a student who spread a beta of a product he loved around some friends who wanted to try it out, and Apple want to force him into penury to make an ‘example’ out of him?”
I suppose you wont mind me leasingin out your house for a few months so that I can make a few bucks on it.
What? You’re going to sue me if I do? Why are you making an example out of me?
“Are these even big players in the Mac Community?”
You implying that I meant that and I didn’t. So you stop your FUD and small thinking. There are over 25 million OS X users and not counting the OS 9 users out there, that doesn’t seem small to me.
I was implying what i said and asking a question!
This is just another frivolous lawsuit – you know the kind that the US gov didn’t make illegal. You could bet your house that this would be called frivolous if it was someone claiming damages caused by a large company, and not the other way around.
“Uh, no. That’s what Cease and Desist letters are for.”
Cease and Desists are for media companies… not theives. You obviously don’t know how bit torrents work…. or the entire wares scene in general let alone the law.
You think that shutting down one torrent fixed the problem?
What? It means nothing of the sort. It asked whether these people were big players within the mac community. It didn’t imply any kind of comparison with any other community. Every community has its big players, regardless how big it is compared to any other community. The Windows community has big players, the Linux community does, the Mac community does, heck, the Hurd, Doom and ZX Spectrum communities still have big players. On the contrary to your allegation, it’s *your* post that is uselessly inflammatory.
“While I don’t condone what these students have done, I also don’t think Steve Jobs can forget the not-so-legal beginnings of his own technology career.”
That’s for sure.
“There are over 25 million OS X users”
Last number I heard was 60 million OS X users… at least that is what was said at the last MWSF.
What a ridiculous comparison. I live in my house. Nobody lives in OS X. No-one is claiming that the individual being sued made any money from redistributing the beta. And you completely and utterly miss the point about the differences between punitive, compensatory and exemplary damages.
“What a ridiculous comparison. I live in my house. Nobody lives in OS X. No-one is claiming that the individual being sued made any money from redistributing the beta.”
I think what he was showing… and correctly I might add is that Apple would be losing money… in the same way that you would be losing your privacy in your home.
>>”While I don’t condone what these students have done, I also don’t think >>Steve Jobs can forget the not-so-legal beginnings of his own technology >>career.”
“That’s for sure.”
Ya, Apple should let people steal their stuff because Steve made a few blue boxes when he was a teenager.
“Ya, Apple should let people steal their stuff because Steve made a few blue boxes when he was a teenager.”
Yeah, and what was he doing with those blue boxes if not stealing, not to mention being a doped out hippy for years. The point is people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Apple’s being greedy here.
Some of you people will defend Jobs no matter what he does. If he tells you to jump off a cliff, you’ll do that too, won’t you?
I don’t know what disgusts me more, Apple ruining the life of a 23 year old who did something dumb but in the end didn’t hurt anyone (No, having 20 people that are not registered out in the wild with a beta of the new version of OSX will not kill Apple) or the hords of fanboys defending this sickening legal action by Apple.
“Yeah, and what was he doing with those blue boxes if not stealing, not to mention being a doped out hippy for years.”
Ya, so it sounds as if you would support the argument that people should steal anything apple produces and Apple ought not follow up on it because Apple made blue boxes.
“Apple’s being greedy here”
How so, for making sure people don’t steal whats theirs and that they cause people to won up to the contracts they sign? How is that gredy?
“Some of you people will defend Jobs no matter what he does”
Who is doing that? Are you suggesting that those of us that are suggesting that Apple is in the right for defending what is theirs and also prosecuting those that didn’t follow the contracts they signed as defending Apple without reason? You really ARE a troll aren’t you.
Period.
This isn’t like fanfiction or songvids. (Which you can argue are not for profit derivatives.)
This wasn’t even an act of protest against current IP law. (Which needs reforming, hoo-boy!)
It’s not even like watching last week’s LOST episode on the “DSL Channel” because you forgot to set the VCR/TiVO.
Having once signed an NDA, the fact of the matter is, when you sign an NDA you sign a contract. If the contract says that you do not share, then YOU. DO. NOT. SHARE.
It doesn’t matter if your intentions are good. You promised not to share and you were warned what could happen if you broke your word.
Do I feel sorry that this silly young man will get hammered? Hell yes. But it’s 100% his fault, not Apple’s.
This is the real world.
Industrial espionage is a very, VERY, serious matter.
Perfect example of where THE LAW is horribly out of sync with common sense.
As a shareholder in Apple, I want the value of my investment protected.
“I don’t know what disgusts me more, Apple ruining the life of a 23 year old who did something dumb but in the end didn’t hurt anyone (No, having 20 people that are not registered out in the wild with a beta of the new version of OSX will not kill Apple)
How is Apple ruining anyones life? The guy signed a contract and decided to do the complete opposite of what the contract said. Apple is simply following through with the appropriate legal action… nothing more.. .nothing less. That’s not ruining someones life. To suggest otherwise makes you seem like an unjustified Apple hater.
or the hords of fanboys defending this sickening legal action by Apple.”
I like this analogy so I’m going to use it too…. I’m going to let some homeless people into your house while you’re gone to take a shower, get cleaned up and eat some food. I hope you don’t mind. Don’t you dare get mad or take me to task or even hope for a second that neighbors defend your position as that might “disgusts me.”
Apple has been known for doing stuff like this for years… yet they always get away with it and MS is always the bad guy.
Reality check: Apple is a lawyer company. They are patent litigators. Essencialy, they are MS * 10 more evil but in a small size…
“Ya, so it sounds as if you would support the argument that people should steal anything apple produces and Apple ought not follow up on it because Apple made blue boxes.”
He didn’t steal anything, just shared it. So what? They’re releasing builds of Tiger anyway.
“How so, for making sure people don’t steal whats theirs and that they cause people to won up to the contracts they sign? How is that gredy?”
For trying to squeeze money out of a guy who probably hasn’t got much to start with, when a cease and desist should have been enough. If it’s such a serious crime, why isn’t the guy being picked up by the mounties or whatever.
“You really ARE a troll aren’t you.”
No, I’m simply pointing out what most of us know. That Mac fanatics will go along with the Apple program no matter what. That a Mac fanatic NEVER questions Apple on anything, and I certainly wouldn’t expect any of you to do so here. Not when somebody’s committed such a horrid offense against Apple. Does the expression “mountain out of a molehill” mean anything to you? What vast sum of money is Apple going to lose because of this build? Again, a cease and desist should be enough. Wozniak thinks so, and there wouldn’t be an Apple if it wasn’t for him.
“Perfect example of where THE LAW is horribly out of sync with common sense.”
Ya, Apple should let anyone that wants to pirate their software and steal their hardware.
“Apple has been known for doing stuff like this for years… yet they always get away with it and MS is always the bad guy.”
No, what people get on Microsoft’s case is defending things they shouldn’t have rights to… or defending things for which they acquired by way of their illegal monopoly.
This guy distributed something to the public… not discretely… but after signing a contract stating that he would not make public any of the details of this project. That fact that you don’t see the difference is surprising.
“Reality check: Apple is a lawyer company. They are patent litigators. Essencialy, they are MS * 10 more evil but in a small size…”
Relatity check… you are a troll to the tenth power.
You cannot steal something unless you deprive its original owner of possession. Copying software, whether its against the law of copyright or an NDA agreement or whatever else, is *never* theft.
“How is Apple ruining anyones life?”
Did you even bother to read what they are doing to this guy? Sure, he did something wrong and Apple has every right to do something about it, but their response is totally out of proportion.
And about your little analogy, it isn’t an analogy as the things you are trying to compare are not comparable. And again, this is not about if the guy did something wrong (which he did) but about a reaction that is totaly out of proportion. To stay with your so called analogy, would it be ok for me to rape and torture and kill you for breaking into my house, cause, hey, you did something wrong?
No, Apple should take _reasonable measures_ to prevent this happening. Come on – it’s a fucking beta. No-one is going to install this and then say ‘well, that’s me covered, I don’t need to buy Tiger!’, just like no-one is going to download a Longhorn beta and not use the real thing when it’s released. Hell, you must have read the reviews of Tiger betas too, if you have then you know perfectly well that they’re _broken_. Stuff doesn’t work right. No-one wants that on their computer for good, least of all Apple fans. Frankly I doubt that this entire thing cost Apple _one single cent_ in lost sales from the people who downloaded the beta. The people who downloaded it and shared it around are Apple’s most hardcore fans. It’s sure as hell going to cost them lots of cents in lost sales from people who are put off buying from such a vindictive entity.
And *still* none of the defenders of Apple seem to be engaging with one critical point. Apple are not just asking the court for money that will recompense them for any loss. They are not even _just_ asking for the court to impose a fine that will punish the guy who shared the files. They are asking for *both* of these, IN ADDITION to a fine that will act as an ‘example’ to discourage others from doing the same thing in the future. And they are asking for all these things from a college student. You still think this is reasonable?
Do you really believe that ANYone or ANY company who is in a position to compete with Apple and copycat features from Tiger could not afford the $500 to get Tiger from Apple? Do you believe Microsoft or even a small company like Linspire doesn’t know how Tiger will be like because they cannot afford to spend those $500? Everyone who cannot pay these $500 doesn’t have the resources to build something that competes with Apple’s software anyway.
This is totally different from the “iPod and Mac mini infos” ThinkSecret revealed – these were genuine Apple trade secrets and no one should have been able to get them legally.
Is it possible that Apple has lost anything because of these guys? Yes – if people installed the Tiger prerelease they downloaded from bittorrent thanks to these students and a) decided that it’s so great they won’t buy the full version (unrealistic, because it’s still very unstable) or b) they think it’s not really worth $129 and so they don’t buy Tiger when it’s released even though they would have bought it otherwise because they would have been curious. But there are not many people who are so fond of Macs that they download illegal prerelease versions, but still don’t buy every new version of Mac OS X.
To put it in a nutshell, there’s hardly a reason to ruin the students’ future.
Shouldn’t Tiger be coming out anyday now, anyway?
I completely agree with AdamW – he was a bit faster than me
>”He didn’t steal anything, just shared it. So what? They’re releasing builds of
>Tiger anyway.”
He may not have stolen it but he offered it to others so that they can steal it. This is worse because one illegal act turned into 20 thefts… any one of which could turn into many many more.
Why are you trying to mitigate the problem by saying that its okay because Apple trusted many other people to abide by their contractual obligations and let them use it to?
>”How is that gredy?”
“For trying to squeeze money out of a guy who probably hasn’t got much to start with”
So if you get a speeding ticket, should you be let off the hook if you don’t have a lot of money?
“when a cease and desist should have been enough.”
As someone else said, a cease and desist order is for media companies. Its not for someone who is helping others steal a product for which you signed a contract to not distribute.
“If it’s such a serious crime, why isn’t the guy being picked up by the mounties or whatever.”
Because its a series crime of a different regard… one in which he has a right to defend himself on. He hasn’t been found guilty yet.
“I’m simply pointing out what most of us know. That Mac fanatics will go along with the Apple program no matter what.”
How is supporting Apple on something that they have — not only evert moral right bot every legal — right to do? I suppose the greater question is… why is it that every anti Apple zealot is so quick to cast dispersions on Apple for anything they do?
“That a Mac fanatic NEVER questions Apple on anything”
While I’m sure there are some that do this, you’re making it sound as if this example where all the people are coming to Apple’s defense as doing the right thing is proof of that. We’re just showing you that you’re wrong is all.
“I certainly wouldn’t expect any of you to do so here.”
Considering the fact that the managing editor of this site is slanted against Apple, I too am surprised that so many people are supporting Apple on this when you consider the fact that the editor’s agenda has created a huge group of people with like-minded views to her own.
“Does the expression “mountain out of a molehill” mean anything to you?”
Sure. An example of that can be found in how guilty Apple is for defending that which it owns.
“What vast sum of money is Apple going to lose because of this build?”
Apple should sue for appropriate damages… nothing more, nothing less. The fact that the defendant has to hire legal representation is a product of what happens when you do these types of illegal activities. If you can’t stand the heat… get out of the kitchen.
“Again, a cease and desist should be enough.”
Do you ever hear of a cease and desist letter being sent to thieves or those that assist them?
“Ya, Apple should let anyone that wants to pirate their software and steal their hardware”
If he had published secret plans of the hardware I would agree. He shared something EVERYONE could get for $500. Stupid but insignificant. If that´s trade secrets so is Britneys Spears new single, or more correct, recording of Britney Spears doing a sound check.
I don’t know what disgusts me more, Apple ruining the life of a 23 year old who did something dumb but in the end didn’t hurt anyone (No, having 20 people that are not registered out in the wild with a beta of the new version of OSX will not kill Apple) or the hords of fanboys defending this sickening legal action by Apple.
the hords of fanboy, without any doubt. I can’t believe there is people so blind.
Cease and Desists are for media companies… not theives.
Illegally distributing intellectual property is not stealing. The original owner still has his property. It is a copyright infringement (in addition to a contractual violation if he signed a NDA) but it is not stealing.
And whether or not C&D letters are efficient or not is irrelevant. The law is the law. Just because people still go above the speed limit despite the fact that there are fines doesn’t mean the police should shoot at speeding drivers…
I’m not even sure that Apple could get away with punitive damages in this case (that is, if Sunny can get competent legal aid). They would have to prove that they have suffered financial damage from the leak, i.e. that they will sell less copies of Tiger when it comes out. In my opinion, the vast majority of OS X users will buy a legit “final” copy of Tiger instead of a leaked build (or they will wait a couple of days before downloading a pirate copy of the final release). Not only that, but they would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the leak was deliberate and not accidental (as Sunny seems to claim).
Apple can only hope to win this by bullying Sunny into submission, like the RIAA does with music sharers. While they are legally in their right to pursue litigation against him, I think it’s a bad PR move from a company whose motto is “Think Different”…
I’ve just read everything. Until 30 minutes ago I was seriously inclined to buy a powerbook or an ibook before summer because my old notebook is almost dead… I’m not so sure I want to buy anything from apple, now.
“Do you ever hear of a cease and desist letter being sent to thieves or those that assist them?”
Well, strictly speaking, no, as civil and criminal law work entirely differently. Effectively, yes – what else would you call reprimands and probationary sentences?
“I don’t know what disgusts me more, Apple ruining the life of a 23 year old who did something dumb but in the end didn’t hurt anyone (No, having 20 people that are not registered out in the wild with a beta of the new version of OSX will not kill Apple) or the hords of fanboys defending this sickening legal action by Apple. ”
Agree.
He may not have stolen it but he offered it to others so that they can steal it. This is worse because one illegal act turned into 20 thefts… any one of which could turn into many many more.
Nobody stole anything. Illegal distribution of copyrighted material is infringement, not theft. Dowloading of illegally distributed material in itself is not illegal, so that’s even further away from actual theft.
As someone else said, a cease and desist order is for media companies.
No, a Cease and Desist letter is a very common legal recourse used against individuals as much as corporations. If someone harasses you, you can send them a cease and desist letter before taking other legal steps.
Apple should sue for appropriate damages… nothing more, nothing less.
That’s the crux of the issue: it’s not clear if Apple has suffered any damages from this leak, and yet they are asking for exemplary punitive damage. That’s the whole controversy.
Do you ever hear of a cease and desist letter being sent to thieves or those that assist them?
Considering that the guy isn’t a thief, the point is moot.
1. Sounds like the Lad was attempting to “Be someone”
2. He thought he had more “Juice” than the other guy.
3. Perhaps he wanted to shove it up someones “A@#”, eh!
4. Now he’ll need a good solicitor, lots of dough too.
5. He’ll need a fork, he may very well be “done” for good.
Anonymous (IP: —.pool62211.interbusiness.it) – Posted on 2005-02-22 22:51:29 said
“I’ve just read everything. Until 30 minutes ago I was seriously inclined to buy a powerbook or an ibook before summer because my old notebook is almost dead… I’m not so sure I want to buy anything from apple, now.”
——————————
Don’t start telling porkies, you was going to do nothing of the sort
Poor student? What, does that detail matter? What matters to law is that he’s an adult since he’s 18+ years old. Ofcourse, you’re free to disagree with the law, but that doesn’t make Apple’s case less strong. From the /. thread i gathered he broke his NDA. Not sure what that means. He broke contract? Trade secrets? He must’ve have broken something that has got to do with the NDA. Perhaps he argues he hasn’t read the NDA, doesn’t like it, didn’t understand it; he could have said ‘no, thank you’ instead or asked a lawyer to analyse the NDA.
As for the idiots who say this person is a ‘thief’. There is, from both a practical point of view and a legal point of view, a serious distinction between copyright infringement and thievery. Go look it up in the dictionary and lawbook. For one, one is a criminal offense whereas the other one is a civil offense (at least here where i live). Also, i don’t know where you live, but here where i live, my government demands, assumes and judges upon me — all on the law which i ought to know.
did you usually tell to people you don’t know that they’re liars? you can read italian? do you want to read my posts in italian hw/sw forum where I say that I want to buy an apple notebook?
I’ve got an old notebook in this room, I’ve got some euro in my bank account, I save money since last year, I checked prices and I thought that with my budget and my needs I can afford the price of an iBook or a entry-level powerbook, depending on my incomes in the next few months. And now I seriously think that I’ll gonna buy another x86 notebook and I’ll gonna use a linux distro on it. Because with actions like this one apple loose something in my consideration.
Yes when you go trolling on a stupid subject and try and make a issue out of it. The kid did something illegal and got caught, his own fault and now has to meet the consequences.
I drove 8mph over a speed limit and got caught by a mobile speed camera, and got a fine and 3 points on my licence, it was late at night, no one around, I wasn’t doing any harm to me or anyone, but I got caught. Should I have fought it and gone to court? what would my chances be seeing how I did go 8mph over and was actually guilty, even thou the punishment didn’t really fit the crime
“Poor student? What, does that detail matter? What matters to law is that he’s an adult since he’s 18+ years old.”
Not at all. In the trial portion of a criminal proceeding? Sure. Civil law is entirely different. Even in criminal law, during the sentencing part of the process, the defendant’s character, history and (in the case of financial penalties) ability to pay are all considered. These considerations certainly apply in civil cases.
“From the /. thread i gathered he broke his NDA. Not sure what that means. He broke contract? Trade secrets? He must’ve have broken something that has got to do with the NDA. Perhaps he argues he hasn’t read the NDA, doesn’t like it, didn’t understand it; he could have said ‘no, thank you’ instead or asked a lawyer to analyse the NDA.”
It means he broke contract law. An NDA is a contract, legally speaking. His defence, apparently, is that he shared the files ‘by accident’.
“As for the idiots who say this person is a ‘thief’. There is, from both a practical point of view and a legal point of view, a serious distinction between copyright infringement and thievery. Go look it up in the dictionary and lawbook. For one, one is a criminal offense whereas the other one is a civil offense (at least here where i live).”
In most jurisdictions, copyright infringement falls under criminal law. Where do you live? Apple could bring a criminal case for copyright infringement here too, of course; they haven’t, for whatever reason. (For one thing, if they did, the guy would be entitled to public assistance, which he isn’t for a civil case).
just to follow up on the ‘poor student’ thing – in any case, no-one’s really arguing that the fact that he’s a poor student should influence how the _court_ handles the case. We’re arguing it should influence how _Apple_ handles the case, i.e., show some sodding humanity.
ARRRRGGHHHH!!!! How long are you guys going to avoid the subject. Nobody, really nobody at all claimed he should go unpunished. The issue here is if ruining his life does in any way fit his “crime” and a lot of people are of the opinion that no, it doesn’t.
So either shut up or talk about the issue.
To buy or not to buy is a right of mine. I have no intention to give apple money that they can use for sueing someone for LEAKING A BETA of a software. They did have plenty of ways to deal with this situation, they choose the one I consider the worst, so I will not give them my money.
No trolling, simply a fact.
i am not sure how he is going to convince anyone he accidently shared the files.. accidently created a torrent, accidently posted it to a site, and accidently seeded it to his 20 new best friends..
we all do stupid things, i got sued by TBS when i was a poor college student for something dumb i did, i survived, learned a lesson. same will happen here… theres really nothing for anyone to get worked up about, by apple, its users, or it’s haters.. this is just how life works, and if its not for you, choose another path.
@ AdamW Oh yes, you’re right with law theory versus practice. Thats also because judges arent a-moral.
In most jurisdictions, copyright infringement falls under criminal law. Where do you live?
The Netherlands. I admit i haven’t looked it up. Its from heresay. I’ll look it up tomorow (not much time now).
As for the moral side: i’m very aware that its a moral/ethical issue but i’m emphatising that, from a legal point of view, Apple seems to be right here. I say ‘seems’, because the judge hasn’t spoken yet and because i don’t know the NDA nor American law well. This is important because that is how Apple looks to it. Therefore we should not forget that when discussing the issue!
Personally i also find it odd that people who like the GPL are defending copyright infringement and breaking NDAs. I hardly see free software developers arguing that (at least in public) and seems most (at least, my observation on LKML and OpenBSD MLs) don’t like NDAs.
So what’s the summary of all of this? What’s beyond dispute?
(preliminary)
Apple’s terms and conditions of the ADC include (extreme summary by me)
* you can’t give anyone else their intellectual property unless they’re your employees and they’re a member of the ADC (point 3). Anyone else is strictly forbidden.
* Apple can immediately seek an injunction and damages if you diclose their confidential information (point 8 in the prototype licence/confidentiality agreement)
* Apple can choose to waive any and all damages without creating a legal precedent (point 12 of the prototype licence/confidentiality agreement)
Bearing those points in mind, the facts seem to be that:
A – A person with access to Apple confidential information (the Tiger build) delivered a seed key (the means of accessing the build) to someone they knew but did not have a business relationship with.
B – The second person then distributed the confidential information on a broadcasting system which they had no control over.
C – The information was taken from the first broadcast system and delivered to a second broadcast system without consent of either the people in step A, step B or Apple (who still legally own the information).
D – Apple invoked the punitive terms of their contract with person A and person B.
But what do each side say as their case? My understanding is:
Sambhara seems to be saying that he didn’t know about the restrictions, didn’t realise the penalties and he’s not wealthy enough to carry any damages that may be assigned to him as a result of a court case, let alone the costs of hiring a legal defense.
Apple say that their intellectual proerty has been copied without their consent and outside the terms of the legally binding agreement they had with both people. They seek damages to recoup any costs they can prove that they’ve suffered (or will suffer) and punitive costs to dissuade others from similar actions.
Sambhara’s points seem a bit poor to present in court. He’d be better to just go in and plead guilty (and as he’s admitted his actions to Apple anyway, he may not have much choice). Ignorance of legalities is not an excuse, and wilful ignorance (ie not reading the terms and conditions that were presented to him) is unlikely to get him very far in a legal setting.
Apple’s points are quite strong, and they should win easily. But what are the damages they’re seeking? Claims that they’d lose sales are dubious and difficult to prove. Punitive damages make a point, but are high damages worth the bad publicity?
The best outcome from this point is for Apple to get a small but substantial settlement out of Sambhara out of court. $5K or $10K isn’t enough to cripple him for life, but it’s enough to send a strong message to others and punish Sambhara at the same time.
Letting him off without penalty may not be a good option, although under their contract they can choose to do this. They point out that it wouldn’t set a precedent legally, but the common assumption may be that it does. Apple may want to avoid that sort of assumption.
Are Apple wrong to enforce their agreements with people? Legally, no. Ethically… probably not. People shouldn’t enter into legal agreements without understanding them. But then, we shouldn’t punish people because of their stupidity, especially when it’s a simple mistake made without malicious intent.
I believe a punishment is in order, but it helps no-one if it’s a massive punishment. He can’t pay it, and anything he can pay will be a drop in the bucket for Apple. Any punitive damages need to be proportional, and any impartial judge should take this into account.
How long are you guys going to avoid the subject. Nobody, really nobody at all claimed he should go unpunished. The issue here is if ruining his life does in any way fit his “crime”
In what way will his life be ‘ruined’? I suppose because he’ll have a record suggesting that he should not be trusted. The details of the case will be public record, and since you say that a lot of people don’t care what he did, then his life will probably be just fine.
Of course, if you were responsible for selecting an applicant for a position requiring the safeguarding of national or corporate secrets, would you think his actions irrelevant? Shouldn’t a prospective employer care, and isn’t that fair?
If the free software foundation plays their cards right they could really use this to their advantage to promote the idealism of free software and open source.
I can download and share any pre-release of the linux kernel I want.
>>This is a PR disaster in the making.
Good point. Yea the kid did wrong but come on, the greater harm is sueing this kid over it all MSFT doesn’t even go this crazy.
Legally, sure, Apple has a perfect right to sue his pants off (though if he got a half-decent lawyer I doubt they’d get exemplary damages, and the compensatory ones would be argued down). The question here is whether what Apple is doing a) is morally right and b) sensible from a PR point of view.
you know better than to run a story with even the slightest criticism of apple’s actions. right or wrong, it never matters here, the apple zealots and fundamentalists will come out of the woodwork raining fatwahs down on anybody who dares saying anything remotely negative.
Business and History Lesson….. Apple take note….
Apple shareholders take note…. if you want to make a lot more money…..stacks more money…
To compete -if that’s what you wish to do with the Microsoft world- you need to forget about these little things and let them fly… at least until you reach critical mass… Look at MS they talk all the talk and at the end of the day encourage non-purchased software…India, China just like they did with Win95 WHY?? It opens doors…… Opens markets…
Creates demand.
This also means that OSX needs to be released for x86 too…
Once you reach critical mass charge for small updates case in point MS95 MS98 MS98se WindowsME ((Palm OS))….. You’re not after catching dumb home user all the time you’re after catching massive companies not paying up……
Novell used to be very strict regarding the number of connected users… MS implimintation still largely forgetable n where are Novell they today % of share within the server market??? Not including new purchases…
what like not suing someone for having the domain name
mikerowesoft.com
?
@Neil
Has MS reached critical mass in the desktop market??? once reaching this point they twist the money key…
Thats just how the system works unless the software is free of cost…
hhaaaa, so if they are big enough then you have no problem with them suing a person even thou in the case of mike rowe he was totally innocent and in apples case he was guilty?
I agree its a bit over the top, but he needs a slap on the wrist, but I think many on here are just using it to have a chance to score points against Apple rather then actually being properly morally outraged.
The haters are as bad as the fanatics
“I agree its a bit over the top”
It’s not a bit but lightyears over the top
“but I think many on here are just using it to have a chance to score points against Apple rather then actually being properly morally outraged.”
Anything to back this up? Or are you simply living in a deluded world where you think everyone who criticizes Apple has to be a fanatic Apple hater?
Properly morally outraged..
I cant be outraged by this sorry… mainly cause these companies are making software placing it on a cd and selling it at such high rates…
Once they have recovered their development costs that are always sooo highly inflated 10billion pounds((or what ever))they still sell such software for hundreds of pounds, while the cost of manufacture is the pence…
That’s the point apple or any company could use this sort of thing to their advantage to increase sales and not jump down on the “little people” that really make their monopolies work…
They sue the large companies that have 10,000+ copies that are incorrectly purchased/downloaded they would get better PR and would be morally vindicated….
similary, anyone who isn’t outraged about the court case is a apple hugging fanatic, unable to see them do wrong.
I’ve already stated it over the top, but they doing nothing wrong, and maybe a making a point and an example, plenty of other companies have done the same
I had this vivid picture of Bill Gates in his office looking up from the article and tell one of his minions: “Feed him to Ballmer!”
/It would scare the willies out of me.
but, there’s no need to strap him up financely for years to come because of it.
It was beta software after all, not a final RTM copy. And as others have said, the features have already been well publicizied, so it’s not like he was leaking “never seen before” company secrets.
Toss the kid up in jail for two weeks to a month. Lesson learned and he will *never* do it again.
It’s funny– I was driving down this street and all of a sudden a police officer pulled me over and said I was speeding! Apparently I was in a 45 zone and not a 55 zone. When I explained to the officer that I had not bothered to read the posted speed limit, he gave me the ticket any way!
Maybe Steve Wozniak will pay the ticket for me! Afterall, I’m an honest guy…
hehehe – that happened to me once, I was doing 35 in a 25 zone, but I hadn’t noticed the sign (it was a big obsure) – the cop gave me a warning (nice guy!
)
back to the matter at hand – when people get early copies of an OS (or any software) they sign NDAs, those are legal agreements and Apple (or any other company for that matter) is within their legal rights to sue if the NDA is broken.
Its not like he is just downloading it and using it illegally like some MP3s but he is actually the supplier, the first in the chain.
You always go after the top and not the simple downloaders, they not worth the time
Listen the if the guy signed a contract or agreed to somthing then yes he should be punished, if not for rules everyone would just go around and steeling other ppls stuff, and by distributing Apples property when he agreed not to is stealing wheather he made profit or not. If you rob someones tv and give it away, its still stealing! Since OSX isnt under the GPL they have the right to make sure their property is safe. He knew exactly what he was doing, and therefore should be punished. Spaceboy29 you shouldnt use FUD if you dont know what it means.
I’d have to say, this dissappoints me with Apple. I saw a lot of potential for Apple, and IBM in the coming years to chip away at MS’s market share. And competition means open standards. Good for us bsd and/or linux people. After the Palladium scare, it was good to see other people coming up. Apple was even using open source at it’s core. I could even understand why drm made it’s way into I-Tunes, as a bit of a compromise with the RIAA. I foolishly believed that Apple wasn’t pro-IP, but used it with media when they had to. It’s things like this that remind me why I was wrong.
There are those who always believe in using the best tool for the job, leaving other issues out of it. I understand the logic, but I can’t share it. I don’t feel comfortable using MS stuff after Palladium. And I’m starting to feel that way about Apple. In this, and the thinksecret case, they are punishing their own fans for being too zealous. The irony is that their own fans are so zealous, they defend apple anyway. Kind of masochistic.
Many of you are thinking, this is the same old apple-fan bashing. But seriously, just once, I’d like an Apple fan on this site to say “Yeah, I agree that Apple went too far here, I wish they wouldn’t do that”. I’m not holding my breath for it though.
It’s events like this that make me understand why RMS is the way he is. It may seem over-the-top many days. But I’ll admit, I’m willing to use some tools that may not be best for the job, if it means not being at the mercy of one company. I don’t care if they are in Redmond, San Francisco, or Armonk… I don’t want to have to trust them.
As someone nicely put earlier, I’ll never be prosecuted for passing on a beta release of linux, or bsd.
And for the record, yes, I understand that Apple is legally in the right. But being legal doesn’t mean being right. And I choose to support companies and organizations that don’t make use of every law they are able to.
-b
And for the record, yes, I understand that Apple is legally in the right. But being legal doesn’t mean being right. And I choose to support companies and organizations that don’t make use of every law they are able to.
————
You’re have very few companies to support then.
And I already said, that I think they should just slap him on his wrist or have you chosen to ignore that in order to bash apple fans?
Could we move on to something more important that is actually controllable by us, and that is creating useful software for OSX?
“Once they have recovered their development costs that are always sooo highly inflated 10billion pounds((or what ever))they still sell such software for hundreds of pounds, while the cost of manufacture is the pence…”
How do you think those dev costs are recouped? Unbelievably, by selling software for more than the cost of the disc.
Keep in mind, Apple gives away completely free an entire IDE and toolchain, that I (personally) have been more productive with than years of Visual Studio and other IDEs.
Oh, and Tiger will be included with all new Macs once its released. Recouping dev costs can’t be glossed over.
@Grusic
And what if the beta is used to start exporting new Quicktime content?
Oh, and I’m pretty sure they’d rather NOT throw the kid in jail, thus the $$$.
Snips from your posts:
I agree its a bit over the top, but he needs a slap on the wrist, but I think many on here are just using it to have a chance to score points against Apple rather then actually being properly morally outraged.
—————————————-
I’ve already stated it over the top, but they doing nothing wrong, and maybe a making a point and an example, plenty of other companies have done the same
—————————————-
You’re have very few companies to support then.
And I already said, that I think they should just slap him on his wrist or have you chosen to ignore that in order to bash apple fans?
You’re the only one I’ve seen come close to saying it, and even then you’re firing back or justifying in the same sentence. Your posts don’t read much like an admittance to me.
And yes, there aren’t a lot of IT companies I support. I purchase hardware and software though. And my $dollars go to things I’m comfortable with. I do support of a lot of IT organizations though. OpenBSD, FSF, Gentoo, EFF, Mozilla, etc. I buy cd’s and merchandise from them, even though *gasp* there cd’s and iso’s are available with no copyright protection.
I criticize Apple’s actions because they are worth criticing. What does that mean? It means MS is so far gone that they aren’t worth my time. I will never support them. If Apple would come a little farther away from IPLaw, I would feel comfortable buying their products and recommending them to friends. I AM NOT A HATER. I’m saying these things because they are what stop me from buying an apple / being an apple supporter I criticize, because they are the closest thing to an large IT company I’m comfortable with. Instead, I’m left building my own boxes and installing bsd or gnu/linux. I like it that way but I can’t recommend that to non-technical friends. So as things stand, I don’t recommend anything, I just help them fix what they have.
-b
“Spaceboy29 you shouldnt use FUD if you dont know what it means.”
I was asking a question, because these people bringing this stuff up against Apple aren’t don’t seem like big players in the mac community.
The guy shouldn’t of leaked the build of OS X out. I have the ability to say what I want to say,,,free press.
I’m a mac user, but mac-zealeots are morons!
I don’t think they sued the mikerowesoft guy, did they? I thought they took him to arbitration to try and force him to hand over the domain name. Which still sucks, I just wanted to point out that it wasn’t a lawsuit and he was never threatened with actually paying them money or anything.
“and by distributing Apples property when he agreed not to is stealing wheather he made profit or not.”
No it’s not.
“If you rob someones tv and give it away, its still stealing!”
Correct.
Do you see the difference? Apple still has Tiger. The hypothetical TV owner no longer has his TV.
what a waste of their legal funds. could put new AD for a mac or something.
But Tiger as with the TV is somone elses property, you just can go around taking and ditributing others stuff, without their concent.
Spaceboy sorry, looked like you were making a statement, telling him not to spread his FUD.
Deal with Microsoft? I think not. How about MS owns a piece of Apple, none voting shares of course but still owns about ten percent I think.
Microsoft sold that stock (at a nice profit, too) a LONG time ago.
I was making the point (for about the tenth time in this thread) that unauthorised copying and distribution is not the same thing as theft, neither by reason nor in law.
Sure, by law they are aloud to lash at any young lad.
After all he signed a contract and Apple are hardly known to be “merciful”
I wonder if Apple helps MPAA track down the “downloaders”.
I wouldn’t be surprised because they are two-faced.
For example there seems to be a deal with Microsoft.
One which goes – “Give us Office and Internet Explorer & we will give you iPod and Quicktime”
Then short aftewards, they pretend to be an advocate for OSS community and friends with the GNU/Linux folks.
* Why are some of the quicktime drivers still unavailable for Linux?
* Why don’t they port a QuickTime Player – even if its commercial?
Adobe Acrobat Reader ported their viewer, Macromedia Flash ported their plugin alright.
Because they are two-faced.
* How come you can play iPod under Windows but not Linux?
Why the pact?
Because they care shit about the OSS community, just taking what it needs.
They are a bunch of smug, pretentious, and utterly nasty folks.
Ultimately more vicious and greedy than Microsoft. Sadistic even.
MS threatens. Apple acts. Evil.
Breakout?
How is Apple going to sue a Canadian in a California court? Why would he guy even show up? And how in the hell are they going to collect the money anyway?
NDAs are pretty clear. I’ve signed them before and they are not hard to follow. If you violate them then you take a risk. I speed on the highway all the time so I am not surprised if I get pulled over now and then and no I don’t like it.
In the past Apple has been very lazy protecting their trade secrets and intellectual property with pretty bad results down the line so I do not blame them for enforcing their NDA.
I am not a lawyer but I did have to work closely with copyright and patent attorneys. Apple has no other option than to file formal charges and defend its copyright on the software (OS). Failure to legally defend it would nullify their claims for copyright and/or patentability. Does this mean that Apple is going to severely punish the culprit (financially or possibly jail)? I don’t think so. The primary purpose of the legal action is to prevent the loss of copyright and patentability. It could be settled out of court with no severe penalties or it could go to court and be tried. In that case, Apple is not the one to assess guilt or penalty. that is up to the court. I can’t believe that a judge or jury would be overly severe on the culprit. He had to know that what he did was a violation of a secrecy agreement that he signed with Apple.
Everything you saw obviously went in one ear and out the other, then.
#1: the concept that if you don’t enforce <X> you lose your right to enforce <X> does not apply to copyrights. It certainly applies to trademarks, and I think it may apply to patents.
#2: neither copyright, trademark nor patent is at issue here.
#3: No-one is issuing formal charges against anyone. Charges are what you issue in criminal cases. This is a civil case.
#4: Apple doesn’t get to ‘punish’ anybody. The court does.
#5: The primary purpose of the legal action is not to prevent the loss of copyright or patentability. Copyright and patent are not at issue in this suit. It is a suit for breach of contract.
It’s fair for Apple to protect their products against unauthorized leaks and piracy. I believe after openning the “shrink-wrap” and/or clicking on the “I accept” button, “Sunny” should realized that he had been binded by the law. Though he let out the NDA-protected piece of information that he should have just kept to himself nevertheless.
It is a common practice in many students–sharing softwares, homeworks and audio & video contents with others. They share it not because they want to damage anything but want to show the “coolness” of the thing that they just done/discovered. They just wanted to be a hero–to be looked upon.
Yes, it is not a good excuse for breaking the law and Yes, I am not against Apple’s suing him and making a good PR out of it to warn future leaks.
But, I think Apple should more cautious on the implication of the lawsuit, not just to public but also to the student being sued and Apple’s public image. I believe that the best practice for Apple is to use the case as a demo that it is determined to pursuit leaks from now on and avoid from ruining “Sunny”‘s life.
We have one RIAA and that is enough.
Education is one of Apple’s biggest market.
Be careful Apple.