Linked by Eugenia Loli on Fri 26th Oct 2007 05:34 UTC, submitted by WillM
Talk, Rumors, X Versus Y "Experts say that migrations from Unix to Linux have slowed down because all the low-hanging fruit has now been picked. Linux growth in the U.S. x86 server market has, over the past six quarters, started to falter and reverse its positive course relative to Windows Server and the market as a whole." More here.
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segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

In the past four years, Novell has done the following:

-Ported NCP to linux
-Ported NSS to linux


So what? Porting stuff to Linux doesn't amount to getting anything done to arrest the haemorrhaging of Netware customers. It isn't magically going to make things happen and move them forwards.

-Ported eDirectory to linux(cross platform enabled to span over NetWare, Linux, and Windows)

Why is it cross-platform with Windows? I thought Novell were selling me something that was better? You see, this is where Novell fails. Would people like to have choice and see Exchange run on Linux? Yes. Is it going to happen? No. Microsoft doesn't compromise on this stuff, which is how they pull sales of Outlook, Exchange and Windows servers along.

-Ported GroupWise to linux(cross platform enabled to span over NetWare, Linux, and Windows)

See above. Groupwise is dead Novell. Do yourself a favour and start using Kolab or OpenGroupware or something like that so people actually know about what it is that you use.

-Built the next generation Zen platform on linux

Quite frankly, I have not been impressed with Zenworks. As far as I can tell, much of what Novell have been doing is writing stuff in .Net and then assuming it can just be ported to Linux using Mono. I don't call that making Linux a first-class citizen.

Most OpenSuse users' experience of Zenworks and Novell's enterprise tools has been less than perfect, shall we say, just so others know what I might be talking about.

-Ported NDPS/iPrint to linux

Yay! At best I can do everything I did before.

-Rebuilt part(server.exe) of NetWare to be virtual machine aware.

Wow. There's no pretty, easy to use management tools, nothing unifying them together, nothing built first on Linux and no one in the open source community can contribute or test any of this stuff, or even know about it. Ergo, Novell is out of the loop in the wider open source world.

-Ported DNS/DHCP directory integrated services to linux.

We already have them ;-).

None of this stuff is unified, and in particular, none of this stuff is unified with what is happening in the Linux and open source world since, Novell doesn't get open source. No one using your average Linux distribution is aware of any of this stuff, let alone using it.

Besides, don't just listen to me. Look at Novell's revenue and bottom line. It isn't working.

Edited 2007-10-26 13:39

Reply Parent Score: 4

IanSVT Member since:
2005-07-06

Would people like to have choice and see Exchange run on Linux? Yes. Is it going to happen? No. Microsoft doesn't compromise on this stuff.


The biggest reason for this in my opinion is because Microsoft doesn't have to. They basically set their own rules within reason.

Groupwise is dead Novell. Do yourself a favour and start using Kolab or OpenGroupware or something like that so people actually know about what it is that you use.


Dead? Tell that to the active developers and all the customers who actually use groupwise. Kolab, OpenXchange, OpenGroupware, none of these come close to GroupWise's market imprint. That would be a very poor decision by Novell to scrap GroupWise.

Quite frankly, I have not been impressed with Zen. As far as I can tell, much of what Novell have been doing is writing stuff in .Net and then assuming it can just be ported to Linux using Mono. I don't call that making Linux a first-class citizen.


What does mono have to do with Zen 10?

Wow. There's no pretty, easy to use management tools, nothing unifying them together, nothing built first on Linux and no one in the open source community can contribute or test any of this stuff, or even know about it. Ergo, Novell is out of the loop in the wider open source world.


As far as eDirectory enabled services, iManager is that tool. You can criticize the tool, but you can't say it doesn't exist.

We already have them ;-).


Not integrated into the directory services, however.

None of this stuff is unified, and in particular, none of this stuff is unified with what is happening in the Linux and open source world since, Novell doesn't get open source. No one using your average Linux distribution is aware of any of this stuff, let alone using it.


It's more unified than you realize. It certainly needs work(specifically the GroupWise tools), but you don't need to do anything at the command line if you don't want to.

You're spot on, no one using your average linux distro is aware of any of this stuff. However, it's not because it isn't open source, it's because your average linux joe doesn't need a groupware package, directory services, directory service enabled printing/dhcp/dns, heavy duty workstation and policy management services.

Trust me brother, Novell can be ripped for plenty, particularly their lackluster sales division and their non existent marketing division. In my opinion, most of their woes are due to these parts of the business. You can even rip some of the technology. However, back to your comment, you said they have done nothing in the four years. Regardless of what you think of their development of products and services and what impact they have, it is an irrefutable fact that they have continued to develop and progress their technology over the past four years.

Reply Parent Score: 4

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

The biggest reason for this in my opinion is because Microsoft doesn't have to. They basically set their own rules within reason.

Novell doesn't have to either. They're selling something that will work, and continue to work, on a platform where they have some say. I can't see the point of installing eDirectory on a platform where Active Directory already exists, and most organisations can see that paradox. eDirectory is just a management tool for AD.

I mean hell - Novell think they have to give you a choice of databases with Zenworks as well, including SQL Server.......... Nice one Novell.

Dead? Tell that to the active developers and all the customers who actually use groupwise.

The last two developers and customers using it may not believe that, but it's true.

OpenXchange, OpenGroupware, none of these come close to GroupWise's market imprint.

Compared to Exchange, no one has any clue what Groupwise is. No one using Kolab, OpenGroupware or Zimbra, which are far more widespread generally than Groupwise, have any clue what Groupwise is nor why they should use it. It's a stagnant and huge piece of software that has gone, and is continuing to go, nowhere. It's not contributing anything to Novell.

Point is, its usage is not going up and is not likely to.

What does mono have to do with Zen 10?

Zenworks for Linux (client anyway) is supposedly written with Mono, but really, it's just the .Net Windows stuff ported over.

As far as eDirectory enabled services, iManager is that tool. You can criticize the tool, but you can't say it doesn't exist.

It's disjointed, not integrated with the tools of other products like MMC is and is not integrated with Novell's desktop of choice on their servers as MMC is. You see, that's what I'm talking about. Novell are just not organised, don't integrate things together and don't have an overall technical strategy from the top down.

This is what has killed Novell, and other Microsoft competitors - because it isn't just them.

Not integrated into the directory services, however.

Then why didn't Novell integrate this stuff into existing projects rather than porting stuff they didn't need to do, increasing complexity? Linux isn't just a free platform you can dump proprietary stuff on. You have to get how you can use open source development and existing software if you want to survive.

However, it's not because it isn't open source, it's because your average linux joe doesn't need a groupware package, directory services, directory service enabled printing/dhcp/dns, heavy duty workstation and policy management services.

Tell that to people who are using the free, standard software available in every Linux distro and not Novell's. If Novell wants to be a Linux distributor, they have to respect the open source software people are already using.

Regardless of what you think of their development of products and services and what impact they have, it is an irrefutable fact that they have continued to develop and progress their technology over the past four years.

You can work on an awful lot of things, but the bottom line is it isn't stopping the haemorrhaging of customers and it isn't increasing their revenue. That's the bottom line.

Edited 2007-10-26 17:18

Reply Parent Score: 3

sorpigal Member since:
2005-11-02

Quite frankly, I have not been impressed with Zenworks.

Quite frankly, you haven't really used it. I can't speak about Zenworks-for-Linux, which I hear exists, but Zenworks on for netware 5.x/6.x managing Windows clients is simply unbeatable, indispensable and zenworks for servers is no slouch either.

And about groupwise... maybe it's not perfect, but if your network is built around eDirectory it is the best thing going.

Also, do not underestimate directory integrated services.

Reply Parent Score: 3

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Quite frankly, you haven't really used it. I can't speak about Zenworks-for-Linux

Since the original post was about building Zenworks on Linux, yes, that's what I was talking about.

which I hear exists, but Zenworks on for netware 5.x/6.x managing Windows clients is simply unbeatable

My advice? Stay on 6.5.

And about groupwise... maybe it's not perfect, but if your network is built around eDirectory it is the best thing going.

The problem is, most networks aren't built around eDirectory, they're built around Active Directory, since it is a prerequisite of managing Windows. Most are using Exchange.

Also, do not underestimate directory integrated services.

I don't, which is why most Linux server installations hit a brick wall. The vast majority aren't going to buy Novell's software on top. Either you get your hands dirty with OpenLDAP, which doesn't have a decent, default installation anywhere, or you get your hands just slightly less dirty with Red Hat Directory Server (Fedora Directory Server), which again, doesn't have a decent default installation anywhere. Additionally, very little is integrated with it until you go and do it yourself.

Reply Parent Score: 2

SEJeff Member since:
2005-11-05

How about funding REALLY SMART PEOPLE like Federico:
http://www.gnome.org/~federico/

Or giving Miguel a platform to stand on and bring C# to Linux? Say what you want about mono being evil, but the part that is ECMA compliant would not be where it is without a corporate sponsor like Novell.

Hmmmmmm maybe open sourcing the code to netmail (and admittingly killing the project) as Hula which has forked to bongo (http://www.bongo-project.org)

What about Tango, http://www.betterdesktop.org, Michael Meeks who runs a good chunk of the non-Sun controlled friendly OpenOffice fork http://go-oo.org ?

Maybe it doesn't matter that their suse engineers have done a lot of work on projects like Samba or the Linux kernel helping the world? http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Alkml.org+%28~*~...

segedunum, a lot of your comments are very controversial and quite good actually. This was not one of them. I could go on for hours about good OR bad things that Novell has done. Don't blindly hate someone because they are trying to make their customers money although I agree they are doing it in a very braindumb way.

Reply Parent Score: 2

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

How about funding REALLY SMART PEOPLE like Federico:
http://www.gnome.org/~federico/


It's not making them any more money.

Or giving Miguel a platform to stand on and bring C# to Linux? Say what you want about mono being evil, but the part that is ECMA compliant would not be where it is without a corporate sponsor like Novell.

Bottom line is, it's not making them any more money.

Hmmmmmm maybe open sourcing the code to netmail (and admittingly killing the project) as Hula which has forked to bongo (http://www.bongo-project.org)

Netmail was essentially useless to Novell, and so they dumped the source. There's nothing in there that matters to Novell, so don't expect any two-way contributions from Novell and the community like in most successful projects.

What about Tango, http://www.betterdesktop.org, Michael Meeks who runs a good chunk of the non-Sun controlled friendly OpenOffice fork http://go-oo.org ?

Desktop stuff isn't making them any money. It's good for us that they're doing it, but ultimately it must be viable. They haven't got the basics right first.

segedunum, a lot of your comments are very controversial and quite good actually. This was not one of them. I could go on for hours about good OR bad things that Novell has done.

That's not what I'm saying. The point I'm making, with respect to the article, is that all this isn't making any headway in terms of their revenue and market share with respect to their biggest competitor - Microsoft and Windows. Anything else isn't the bottom line. That's actually bad for the Linux and the wider open source community.

Don't blindly hate someone because they are trying to make their customers money...

Are they?

Reply Parent Score: 4