After months of keeping its prized cow in the barn, Microsoft is beginning to let Longhorn out of the corral for public viewing.
An early peek at Longhorn
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
From the article it seems that MS is trying their damn hardest to be like OS-X while taking some features from KDE and Gnome.
Its good to see Microsoft playing catch-up for a change. I haven’t used windows on a pc for some time, but Longhorn sounds like they may finally be taking the best ideas from linux, macos and (to some extent) the various kde/gnome technologies, and bringing them together in one coherent OS.
It will be interesting to see how they’ve taken the users/root concept from a linux desktop and applied it to administrators/power users/users in the windows environment. I suspect various apps will break as a downside, but due to their weight in the market, lots of ‘free’ updates for apps will be made available to make them longhorn-compatible.
I will also be interested to see who’s desktop search becomes the best-to-use tool – Apple’s system wide embedded searching, MS’ seemingly global system with live query folders etc, or kde/gnome technologies. Each of them appear to be taking a slightly different route, and hence each should be unique technology in some way.
It’s about time MS integrated the “view icons as the file” type approach that I’ve become accustomed to with nautilus/gnome (and I suspect kde does something similar). I find it endlessly useful.
Lets hope the money MS invested in security training for its developers really pays off in Longhorn, it will be good to finally see an exciting (IMHO anyway) version of Windows.
Thumbnailing, the groundbreaking new technology that has been around for years….
It’ll be interesting to see how Aero turns out.
I’m most interested in that too. They’ve never managed to put something pretty together before. I hope they can this time..
For example, document icons are no longer a hint of the type of file, but rather a small picture of the file itself.
Some quantum leap…
While the look of the OS hasn’t been finalized, the translucent windows and other graphics tricks are expected to find their way into the finished software.
Damn!
Very promising but i rather like to see some screenshots and preferrably a long video.
Hi,
I’d have to concur with the sentimennts above – thumbnailing of a file’s contents in it’s icon?
What the? I can’t believe Microsoft could actually be *that* stupid, or even CNet for that matter. I mean, do they themselves really belive that this is somehow innovative?
A “quick search pane,” for example, allows users to type queries and instantly see matching files.
What? Just because Windows Search, and the Indexing Service completely suck so incredibly, a new feature which *actually* finds your files is somehow innovative? Oh right…and Unix has had locate for what, the last 5 minutes? (And don’t give me that rot about command-line – there’s plenty of well-written, light frontends, although personally I think they’re not all that better than a CLI)
While the look of the OS hasn’t been finalized, the translucent windows and other graphics tricks are expected to find their way into the finished software.
Oh please….Translucent windows? “Graphics tricks”? (whatever that means). This is completely idiotic, and the MS spokesman even has the cheek to tell us this is what is differentiating their product offering. This is quite clearly pathetic – Stardock, to name a comercial example, has offered this for years, as had about 50 other tweaking/eye-candy products on windows. In fact, anybody with an Nvidia graphics card has had this and much more for about 2 years (it’s included with the drivers).
I’m not sure if the MS spokesman was misrepresented, and CNet is just trying to be funny, or ironic or something, and is secretly laughing at Microsoft….or whether they’re actually that embrassingly pathetic.
cya,
Victor
Lol, I get the picture, you don’t like Microsoft.
I’m personally looking forward to this release, all these extra features will simply make the OS more usable and friendly, and what’s wrong with a bit of eye-candy. Just because UNIX has had locate since 2000 years, it’s mainly a command-line tool, that the average desktop user wouldn’t even know existed.
I hope they are putting as much effort into security as they are marketing this thing.
I can’t comment on how much a search feature will change the way I use my desktop, but I will soon know when Mac OS X Tiger arrives in the post. On a side note, check out the review of it on http://www.winsupersite.com. The comment about Windows XP Service Pack 2 being a bigger upgrade than Tiger had me cringing.
Allchin stressed that Microsoft has broken new ground in Longhorn. For example, document icons are no longer a hint of the type of file, but rather a small picture of the file itself. The icon for a Word document, for example, is a tiny iteration of the first page of the file. Folders, too, show glimpses of what’s inside. Such images can be rather small, but they offer a visual cue that aids in the searching process, Allchin said.
That’s not “new ground”! KDE has had this for many years 🙂 and I think Nautilus too.
In the week the release date for OS X Tiger is announced and causing a considerable amount of interest, it’s just a lame attempt at “us too, us too ! look over here, we’ve got a new one too, with uh, some stuff we’re not sure about and due sometime we can’t commit to yet…”
Oh please….Translucent windows? “Graphics tricks”? (whatever that means). .. and much more for about 2 years (it’s included with the drivers).
maybe you should talk a look at http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/xshots
the luminocity, shadows and wobbly window effects are awesome.
i dont see those in windows. maybe this is wat they are doing.
better shadows and some Graphics tricks
lol
That could mean some further trimming around the edges if things fall behind.
In the context of Microsoft already toiling to get the cow out of the barn for years now, and going for a full 5 years [or more?], hinting that features may have to be dropped because they’re falling behind is somehow not quite impressing me.
I’m biased, I admit it, but I don’t mean to troll. My guess is that they’re giving us this news in the ‘rolling thunder’ scheme. We get the crappy features first, the stuff that nobody’s impressed with. Later on we’ll get to hear the really impressive innovations that will make a difference. At least, I hope for Microsoft’s sake that glass interfaces aren’t the fantastic innovation they had made you guys wait four years for. That would be… an anti climax.
By that time Tiger will have been around for more than a year and its successor should be in the wings or even be released, with whatever slew of new goodies that you’d expect there to be in.
If Microsoft doesn’t manage to trump that, I’m afraid their users are in for one major league let-down.
Great! Being able to see Word documents as thumbnails… uberuseful!. Hey! and just imagine Excel ones. Can’t wait! Can’t wait! ^_^
Like Enlightenment DR17? Yes DR17 is far from done (I think) but so is Longworn and while I like to bash at Linux and praise MS just for fun I’m yet to see anything intresting in Longworn, and no I don’t like the new Visual Style.
Lets see what else Microsoft can take and sell from the open source they swear is inferior! Such advances Longhorn is sure to fly off the shelves. Maybe they will even let you preview audio and video right in your explorer, man the things them ‘puters do these days!!! What A F***ing joke
I’m still looking forward to Longhorn, but right now Apple is doing a great job holding my attention. I really dig Tiger and this year might be the year I go Mac (if I can get some extra money)
It’s completely obvious that MS is concerned about Tiger and all the positive press that Apple’s been getting lately. As well they should be.
The rising interest in Mac OS X and Linux is making MS sweat and I’m not quite sure that they know how to handle it. We’ll see.
Thumbnailing, the groundbreaking new technology that has been around for years….
Along with trolling. Coincidence?
That’s not “new ground”! KDE has had this for many years 🙂 and I think Nautilus too.
They might have meant ‘new ground’ in respect of Windows, not other OSes/WMs. Could be taken either way.
And no, I didn’t RTFA :]
i dont care anymore about MS products.
call me a brickhead or whatever you may like, but products of this company are of the lessest interest, especially operating systems.
and i think that the minmum specs for longhorn will be 8 cpus and 17 nVidia-cards SLI-connected and 8 Gb of ram which actually doesent get used anyways.so you need an extra terrabyte hd for swapping.
and the default theme will be that ugly and colorful, that you need some ultra-special glasses to get in front of the computer.
how can someone get away with a default theme like luna?
why ist it that they ship something as default that looks as if it were designed for either 5yo kids or idiots? … uhhh sorry, i was carried away.
my hint: ignore these bums.
sorry, its not that technical or something, just the way i feel about it.
Brickhead? Haha, I love it.
BTW, I agree with your sentiments exactly so I am proud to admit being a Brickhead as well
And I think it’s quite normal: When one player dominates for too long it gets, well, boring. The masses will (are?) looking for something else and Microsoft from now on until release (my pick is 2007 
will be frantically waving their hands, running brainwashing seminars and presentations to make sure the industry pauses once again while the get their bloated layer-on-top-of-layer-on-top-of-layer architecture slapped into something resembling shape.
Admittedly I still run XP on my x86 laptop (I write software for a living and have to target the biggest markets first, it’s financial sense after-all), but I also run Ubuntu for all personal computing use, and have an iBook (I hve to say for personal computing, OSX wins for me). Between OSX and Ubuntu, I never use XP for any personal computing these days.
Zet
I only use windows as a dedicated terminal for my routers at home,hyperminal doesn’t really have its counterpart.For the rest it’s good for harvesting windows bugs 🙂
It’s a mistake to use Microsoft as a model, because their whole culture derives from that one lucky break. Microsoft is a bad data point. If you throw them out, you find that good products do tend to win in the market. What VCs should be looking for is the next Apple, or the next Google.
I think Bill Gates knows this. What worries him about Google is not the power of their brand, but the fact that they have better hackers.
“I stopped reading when I got to the “file contents as thumbnail” part. I didn’t know that could be done. This will be so cool. Now we just have to wait 2-3 years for the Linux-people to catch up and call it thier innovation.
Go Microsoft.”
There are two possibilities:
1. This is just bait.
2. This poster really didn’t know KDE/Gnome (Linux desktops) have had this ability already for quite some time, despite the dozen or so other posts under this thread which already point this out.
Third possibility:
It’s a joke!
Is there any Screenshot of this new Longhorn? Video or something to see? Do we have to wait until WinHEC 2005 before knowing what’s new with this build?
I wouldn’t be surprised if Longhorn will also feature virtual desktops and tabbed browsing and such.
This holds no appeal unless they can produce an OS that doesn’t have DLL hell, doesn’t leave parts of old applications that were removed lying around on the disk and is more secure and free from spyware, viruses and trojans.
“Hey look how pretty this interface is! I want it now!”
“But it’s insecure and is easily infected by trojans and viruses!”
“But look how pretty it is!”
The_Raven: It’s completely obvious that MS is concerned about Tiger and all the positive press that Apple’s been getting lately. As well they should be.
Hmmm … WinHEC is from 25-27 April, these dates have been known for many many months. According to some people apple has rushed the release OSX 10.4 (Friday 29th) to overshadow WinHEC and the official release of Windows XP-x64.
http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=27903
All those whistles, thumbnails etc. are not new TO YOU, geeks with huge knowledge. They are new to Mrs. SECRETARY, and 1,000,000+ other people who have never seen anything but W98/WinXP. This _will be_ a revolution: “Wow, it is translucent, look at this!!!”, “Wow, it is so simple, I wonder how they did it!!!” “Wow, I must pirate and install this system, it looks so cool!!!” “Gnome? Linux? Can you play FIFA 2006, Prince of Persia 3 or [place other top 10 title here] with it? No? then f..k off!!!”
This is the monopoly: it’s not important, what’s better; it’s important, what’s better known.
>This is the monopoly: it’s not important, what’s better; it’s important,
> what’s better known.
That is why its important that we speak/tell about it, nothing in LongHorn is new in computerland, its old wine in new bottles. Its either stolen/borrowt from other oses or bought in, like the RAV engine.
The more we speak/tell about it, the better the alternatives get known.
Finnaly joe-user people look at alternatives like, Linux, MacOS or SkyOS.
Oooh, the anticipation is killing me. So when is the beta version (first release) expected to hit the market?
Wake me when they come out with Service Pack 2. Like all other Windows releases, it’s not even worth thinking about until then.
Microsoft would never do something like that. Hah!
The MS PR machine is nervous so they called up one of their toadies at CNet to get some coverage for an OS that doesn’t exist yet and has been delayed so many time I’ve lost count. OS X 10.4 is going to win over a lot of Windows drones. Apple is riding a huge wave these days and MS wont be able to get their OS out the door for another year. Everyone wants an iPod and hopefully a lot of those people will buy a Macintosh to go with it.
Ok, I use Windows XP, and really have no problems with it …. but geez, what a bunch of hyped/ripped off/stolen doublespeak.
Macs are looking more and more appealing to me every day …
I think I’m the only one who doesn’t give a rat’s ass if KDE/Nautilus/Mac OSX had thumbnails first. Its a good feature and I don’t see why it shouldn’t be incorporated into Windows. I think Enlightenment probably had this feature as well as many others before Gnome an KDE developers even hit puberty. So lets talk about who had stuff first now? Whats that, no comment? I didn’t think so.
// So lets talk about who had stuff first now? Whats that, no comment?//
Here’s a comment: you missed the point. The issue isn’t wether Windows should implement thumbnails/transparency/whatever. The issue is that Allchin and the other MS whores are saying that it’s “innovative” and “new” and “revolutionary.” Simply not ture.
@TaterSalad: LOL and enlightment is from linux so is the same as saying linux had it first. Linux has everything first so just get used to it.
The problem isn’t that Longhorn has thumbnails for icons.I welcome him using tech from OSX and Linux.
The problem is that Jim Allchin is calling it a new innovation, giving the indication that Microsoft was the one who thought of this.
He’s taking credit for something that’s been around in other OS’es for a long time.
The big problem Longhorn is facing is that for everyone who doesn’t have the recommended Pentium 4 3.4 GHz and 2 GB of RAM it would be a very sluggish experience. I rather stick to Linux which runs blazing fast on my on my P4 2.0GHz and you don’t have all those problems with viruses etc.
Here is a comment on various other comments. I am not going to quote other comments so get over it.
First off, I don’t like Windows, have to use it all the time so that I can support it. But honestly how many people still have problems with “.DLL Hell?” That hasn’t really been an issue since ’98, and even that had few “real world” issues.
Second, just to clear things a little about the comment on Elighenment. Elightenment is a window manager/shell. Up until recently Enlightenment didn’t even have a file-manager let alone thumbnail icons. With the (hopefully soon!) release of D17 there WILL be a file-manager called the EFM.
The big problem Longhorn is facing is that for everyone who doesn’t have the recommended Pentium 4 3.4 GHz and 2 GB of RAM it would be a very sluggish experience. I rather stick to Linux which runs blazing fast on my on my P4 2.0GHz and you don’t have all those problems with viruses etc.
Fairly standard reply. I suggest you learn the basics of administering a Windows machine. That way you won’t experience ‘all those problems with viruses’.
To be honest, the best thing about this is the fact that lots and lots of idiots who consider themselves ‘power-users’ but actually aren’t (and are a plague in the world) will move to Linux.
Seriously, good riddance.
I am sure Longhorn will be nice, but talking about breaking new ground with thumbnail previews is just plain dishonest.
Even more so because the statement is deliberately vague so that it could mean new ground for Windows and not new ground in computing. Of course most people will take it to mean new ground in computing. But it cannot be proven that Allchin lied.
I don’t understand this Word Thumnail thing.
I use Windows 2000 SP4 (not even XP) and if I switch a folder to thumbnail view, then all my Office documents are visible as thumbnails with minature versions of the contents.
I’ve Been doing this for the last 3 years.
So what is different with Longhorn’s Word Thumbnails? Am I missing something here?
First off, I don’t like Windows, have to use it all the time so that I can support it. But honestly how many people still have problems with “.DLL Hell?” That hasn’t really been an issue since ’98, and even that had few “real world” issues.
I second that. It is irritating when people say that the end user is somehow better off having to rely on a single repository of software that the vendor supplies.
It is an embarrassment that so much software initially designed for Unix/Linux is actually easier to install on Windows.
oh my god.. Paul Thurotte is such an idiot!!!
there are 200 enhancements but only 10 are worth noting (which I agree with)
but to claim the SP2 was a bigger leap that tiger is just plain lying.
Can you play FIFA 2006, Prince of Persia 3 or [place other top 10 title here] with it? No? then f..k off!!!”
Not to split hairs, but yes, many of the top 10 titles work quite well on Linux. Just some lesser-known ones like Half-Life 2, World of Warcraft, etc.
Revolution? Doubtful. A ton of “ooh, that’s cute!”‘s? Sure.
what? Hypterterminal does not have a counterpart? are you joking?
ssh in any Unix based OS does the deal better that hyperterminal.
Even with *basic system administration* skills you still have the risk to get your windows system infected by viruses. In fact it is my experience that you need to seriously know windows and its quirks to be able to successfully maintain properly a windows box. It’s no surprise that big companies are locking down all their windows pc/laptop to avoid having them infected at the first installation of some warez…
The best thing is lots and lots of idiots will stay with Longhorn
“most computers today are run in administrator mode”
I think what they mean is “Microsoft Windows is set by default to run in administrator mode”.
To imply this is a general problem with “most computers” and that their innovative new approach is going to remedy this for everyone is disingenuous, if not dishonest, to say the least.
They’re simply going to try and fix something that they alone screwed up in in their own product in the first place.
There have been many references to Windows copying Linux and OS X. Why is it okay for the Linux community to copy windows features, but somehow it is a crime for Microsoft to borrow ideas from Apple, OSS, whoever…?
I mean KDE is really a bad knock-off of a Windows desktop, let’s face it, the KDE folks tried hard to copy Windows. However, they use the excuse “oh, well we want Windows converts and the best way to do this is to make it look like Windows…”
I don’t see anything wrong with borrowing good ideas. Lexus borrows from Mercedes-Benz, Nissan borrows from VW, NEC borrows from Sony, etc… How is this any different?
When you consider that Microsoft updates IE, Messenger, Mediaplayer, Moviemaker, DirectX, etc, separatedly, for free, and hence wouldn’t need to include those updates in a service pack (although IE and DirectX 9 were included in SP2), Thurrott has a point. OS X Tiger is basically equivalent to Microsoft packaging IE (Safari), MSN Toolbar Suite (Spotlight), MSN Messenger 7 (iChat AV), Mediaplayer (Quicktime), DirectX (CoreImage/CoreAudio), and SP2 (all the system level updates) on one DVD and selling it for $129. (Which would, of course, lead to public outcry.) The only thing missing would be Dashboard and nobody cares about Dashboard.
It’s simple: they’ll bash anything their competition offers. Especially from Microsoft. Some how they think that it’s in Microsoft best interest to say: “We have this new feature that was first thought up by this person, and here it is in our OS!” Uhm, hello..?! Has noone here ever heard of marketing or PR?! OF COURSE they’re going to act like it’s their idea, that’s how marketing works!
I mean damn, do you see the Axe Effect commercials telling you that you really won’t get chicks if you wear it? Or that if you eat a lot of Special K, you’ll get fat? No, but of course.. when you see Microsoft do it – oooh, they’re evil!
Thank you idiots for Double Standard 101.
“According to some people apple has rushed the release OSX 10.4 (Friday 29th) to overshadow WinHEC and the official release of Windows XP-x64.”
According to “some people”. Whatever, dude. Longhorn is at LEAST a year away. Tiger is here, now. The halo effect of the iPod is real and that’s why MS is sh**ting bricks! Not to mention the fact that the rest of the world is clued into MS’s craptastic products and leaning toward open source alternatives.
Looking forward to see if Longhorn will clear up all the issues that plague XP like cruft being left over after uninstalling an app…the hardware requirements, resource usage and so on. Well my XP is not resource hungry…< 25 processes and 133 mb of memory when I start up is not bad…
Anyway Longhorn looks to be great. Once again M$ is doign what they do best, take the best things and put them together in one OS…and claim that they invented the technologies…retarded but it works. I just want to see if they got rid of the overhead DX drivers had with XP for games. And the more I hear about Avalon the more interesting it gets.
Also MONAD looks to be better than the Linux bash shell. Check it out on google…nice stuff!!
Wow the whole world is leaning to open source alternatives? haha sure dream on buddy. Much as Linux is great and all there is still a while to go for that to happen. From what I am seeing of M$ lately they are genuinely trying to fix up all the vulnerabilities of XP. I am personally inclined to get a Mac just for a breath of fresh air. MY requirements for a mac have to be 2 dual core procs @ 3 Ghz, bigger hdd and not the 250 gb crap…and either ATIs multi VPU technology or NVidia’s SLi. But they are probably never going to have that. That is why I will stick with an uber expensive VoodooPc with multicore AMDs and Longhorn. Because I am used to Windows, and because I am not going to make a hasty decision right now of some pre-alpha builds that are being demoed right now. I will wait till it comes out, try it out at a store and decide if I want to get a copy. All this useless bantering as to which OS is better is useless till then.
Cedega… Winex…. my view is if it required work to get an app to run (yes i use cedega and most games require some definite .conf config changes… THEN ITS NOT WORTH A DAMN, who wants to fuck with configs to get half life 2 working….
And those idiotic junkies that run around with ipods are jackasses… its a harddrive based mp3 player thats expensive as helll… the only good thing about it is that there are alot of accessories… Which last i checked wasnt really Apple’s doing it was logitech and other companys that wait last i heard APPLE decided to rip off and start charging them subsidies to say that they were “made for ipod” arggg im sick of double standards…
And i have to agree monad is pretty sick i messed with it and the scripting language takes some getting used to but for a early beta if they really do replace the current CLI then damn people will be impressed.
Umm… not quite.
Tiger is more than just those things. In fact the features you listed are the things that interest me the LEAST about Tiger. What excites me, is the technologies they’ve built into it for me, as a developer. CoreData, CoreImage, CoreVideo, the Cocoa classes for spotlight, etc… Those are all amazing, and will make for some amazing 3rd party applications in the next year or so.
CoreData + Cocoa Bindings… that’s gonna be one sick (as in good) mix.
The thumnbnails are not JUST WORD AND TEXT DOCUMENTS they are refering to the ability to thumbnail a much wider variety of files that werent available previously…
As for the graphics tricks that wonderful stardock and the rest have done.. the point is to be able to do such a thing without having to have your CPU jump to 100% everytime an impressive effect happens or havent u seen the 3 year pre-release example video of like 10000 polygons spinning on the screen in random and only using 1% cpu the graphics engine moved to directx has made VAST improvements and that will be something to be reconned with.
would be in a system that explains clearly the admin/user account issues, and made security as simple as possible, but no simpler.
eye candy leads to retinal decay.
gimme good scripting, too.
” I mean KDE is really a bad knock-off of a Windows desktop, let’s face it, the KDE folks tried hard to copy Windows. However, they use the excuse “oh, well we want Windows converts and the best way to do this is to make it look like Windows…”
Maybe you should ckeck your facts out. KDE is light years ahead of a Windows desktop in so many fronts it’s not even funny. KIO-Slaves, network transparency, multiple desktops, complete control over windows, extreme configurability… the list goes on and on.
” I don’t see anything wrong with borrowing good ideas. Lexus borrows from Mercedes-Benz, Nissan borrows from VW, NEC borrows from Sony, etc… How is this any different? ”
Agree, nothing wrong with that. The problem is they are the ones claiming themselves ‘innovative’ and patenting things.
what? Hypterterminal does not have a counterpart? are you joking?
ssh in any Unix based OS does the deal better that hyperterminal.
Can you catch the OS inside a hardware router during booting with ssh?I use hyperterminal to get into the setup menu of some routers at home,via serial line,not to connect “secure” to some server.I know minicom and kermit exist.
Please feel free to enlighten me i’m all eyes 🙂
“There have been many references to Windows copying Linux and OS X. Why is it okay for the Linux community to copy windows features, but somehow it is a crime for Microsoft to borrow ideas from Apple, OSS, whoever…?”
I think you are missing the point. No onethinks it is bad for MS to incorporate good features into their products. The thing people have a problem with is MS putting in good features from other OSs and claiming it as innovation.
It’s not using the idea, it’s using the idea and claiming it as their own.
I have no real stand on that myself, but I can at least understand what people are saying.
Okay. Educate me. What features of Linux+apps are innovative? What can those things do that no one else has ever though of?
Is there some aspect of the Linux kernel or OSS applications that make it more innovative than OS X or Windows?
Please be very specific…
The issue isn’t that Windows is *adding* these features, it’s they (once again) a Microsoft representative is claiming that the features (which are arriving late to Windows) are somehow innovative developments that were invented by Microsoft.
It’s a *direct* slap in the face to those who came up with the original ideas in the first place.
I don’t begrudge Microsoft for blatantly trying to rip off as many features as possible. Being the richest company on the planet, I would have hoped they could come up with their own unique stuff instead of doing the same things as others but changing stuff just enough to avoid litigation.
On another note, what I like about Tiger:
Smart folders and the ability to search within pdf files.
Dashboard rocks!
http://www.apple.com/macosx/theater/dashboard.html
– like the widget bar and its activation by a function key
– the ripple or wave effect (obviously a Core image feature) when a widget launches.
-fight info widget-way cool
-the ability to have multiple weather widgets to get weather info at many places). like Also
All iCandy for sure, but with processors becoming so powerful, why not!
Thank you Apple for making computing even more fun!
actually.. the ripple effect is a Quartz Extreme effect.
All the squabbling here.
Who knows what the focus really is the Allchin placed on thumbnailing — it was the author who wrote the article. If you’ve ever done journalism and seen your article go through the hands of an editor or two, this wouldn’t raise your hackles.
Innovation isn’t as interesting as maturity. I use Gnome/Linux because it works in a way I find more intuitive than Windows. I think MS sucks at security and I won’t go there anymore. I like OS X the OS but don’t like the meta-obfuscation of most of its apps (iTunes — content doesn’t mirror file directory; iPhoto — see iTunes).
MS doesn’t and won’t innovate. They need to get off the 5 year development cycle and adopt Apple’s strategy. But they can’t because of their longstanding history with developers and enterprises. They’re stuck in a development model that would hurt them to abandon, but which gives them a distinct disadvantage now.
why should mirror physical location? I want my pictures and my music.. I do not want to have to navigate to them via the file system. I want to just look them up… and with the new iPhoto, adding keywords are easy and then I can get all the pics with my children at christmas, or christmas pictures etc.
computing is about content and you cannot full organize by every conceivable content in all your files.
”
That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all day. Cedega and WineX are absolutely fucking useless at playing anything. Including Half Life 2, which, under Windows runs significantly faster. It’s amazing that Linux users put up with utter shite in every department yet accuse Windows of being the broken OS. Although it’s fairly apparent that Linux junkies (the blinkered ones, basically all of them) are quite happy to have old hardware run like even older hardware for the sake of ‘leetism’.
”
Well when you get native Linux programs running on top of Windows (note I said native Linux….as in NOT Cygwin) without any speed loss or problems and without a recompilation, then I think you have a point. I’d like to see you do any better.
And please quit acting like the people at OSNews represent the whole Linux community. Eugenia could only wish her site had the whole Linux community visiting it (ad revenue and all).
“Well when you get native Linux programs running on top of Windows (note I said native Linux….as in NOT Cygwin) without any speed loss or problems and without a recompilation, then I think you have a point. I’d like to see you do any better.”
There is absolutely no reason to ever do this. Linux needs Windows not the other way around.
“And please quit acting like the people at OSNews represent the whole Linux community. Eugenia could only wish her site had the whole Linux community visiting it (ad revenue and all).”
Well, judging by all the screaming and flaming I see going on regarding her articles she definitely gets a lot of Linux readers/posters.
You have to be kidding me about saying Tiger should be a service pack (or is no more than a service pack). The changes to Tiger both visible and under the hood are quite extensive.
On the flip side take a look at the difference between Windows2000 pro and XP pro. Other than an ever so slight dress up in the UI, I can’t really think of anything. Most of the changes were under the hood (NT 5.0 -> NT 5.1 kernel), and not of much notice to the average user. Oh wait they made it work better with Directx and pnp…yeah I guess that was the big selling point. Windows XP = the same basic UI and function since Win95. Which is why MS is obviously so excited about Longhorn. For the first time they are actually making significant changes…..albiet changes that already exist in either OSX or Linux.
Okay. Educate me. What features of Linux+apps are innovative? What can those things do that no one else has ever though of?
Is there some aspect of the Linux kernel or OSS applications that make it more innovative than OS X or Windows?
Please be very specific…”
The only thing i can think of is filesystems (reiser, xfs, etc.) other than that linux has basically been ripping off and playing catchup with features other OS kernels have had for decades. One has to laugh when linux zealots come out and tout stuff like O(1) schedulers and hardware abstraction layers as innovative when other OSes had those for years (yes windows).
[ http://ryangregg.com/PermaLink,guid,969f1b3c-55e0-4760-963d-1e909fa… ]
Linux’s Evolution Towards Windows:
I/O Processing:
Linux 2.2 had notion of bottom havles for low-priority interrupt processing, with fixed number of BHs, only one BH of a given type could be active on a SMP (or a single proc system)
Linux 2.4 introduced tasklets, which are non-preemptible procedures called with interrupts enabled
Tasklets are the equivalent of Windows Deferred Procedure calls
Kernel Reentrancy
Much of 2.2 Linux was not reentrant. This means a single CPU can be in the kernel at a time.
Ingo Molnar stated in rebuttal: “his example is a clear red herring.”
A month later, he made all major paths reentrant.
Kernel Preemptibility
Through the base release of 2.4, Linux was only cooperatively preemptible. There are well-defined safe places where a thread running in the kernel can be preempted. The kernel is preemptible in v2.4 patches, and in v2.6.
Windows NT has always been preemptible.
Per-CPU Memory Allocation
Linux 2.4 introcued per-CPU kernel memory buffers. Windows had these in NT Service Pack in 1997.
Scheduling
The 2.4 scheduler is O(n). If there are 10 active tasks, it scans 10 of them in a list in order to decide which should execute next. This means long scans and long durations under the scheduler lock.
Linux 2.4 with patches from Ingo Molnar created a O(1) scheduler, using ordered lists by priority. Has per-CPU ready queues where the tasks are presorted.
Windows NT has always had O(1) scheduler based on pre-sorted thread priority queues.
Server 2003 introduced per-CPU ready queues. XP and previously Oses do not have this ability. Linux load balances queues whereas Windows does not.
Zero-Copy SendFile
Linux 2.2 introduced Sendfile to efficently send file data over a socket. Sendfile API actually did a copy operation to the network buffer before the send.
Linux 2.4 introduced zerocopy version.
Windows NT pioneered zero-copy file sending with TransmitFile, the Sendfile equivalent, in Windows NT 4. This was the API from the secert MS-Netscape meetings discussed in the Antitrust suit
Wake-one Socket Semantics
Linux 2.2: Thundering Herd or overscheduling problem: In a network server application there are typically several threads waiting for a new connection. In 2.2, when a new connection came in all the waiters would race to get it, but only one could.
Ingo’s response: 5/2/99 “here he again forgets to _prove_ that overscheduling happens in Linux”, 5/7/99: “as of 2.3.1 my wake-one implemntation and waitqueues rewrite went in”
Always been in Windows NT.
Asynchronous I/O:
2.2 Only supported few async I/O.
2.6 adds asynchronous I/O for direct disk access, AIO model introduced with efficent management of async I/O. Also added alternate epoll method.
Windows I/O is inherently asynchronous. Windows has had completion ports since NT 3.5. More advanced form of AIO. Completion ports are patented, does AIO infringe?
Light-Weight Synchronization
Linux 2.6 introduced Futexes: There’s only a transition to kernel-mode when there’s contention. Futexes = Fast Mutexes.
Windows has always had CriticalSections which have the same behavior.
Futexes go further, allowing for prioritization of waits. Works interprocess as well, where CriticalSections only work in the same process.
This is quite clearly pathetic – Stardock, to name a comercial example, has offered this for years,
Have you used WindowFx? It SUCKS. It doesn’t support multiple monitors, has very choppy edges, and rather buggy. No thanks, I’d rather have the OS do the dirty work and get it right.
Woah!
Thanks for pointing these out. Since we are talking about Linux, the kernel is where we need to look at feature comparisons.
It appears Linux is playing catch up with Windows and not the other way around. Am I wrong?
Does anyone else know of any Linux kernel features that Microsoft stole and called innovation?
Please be very specific…
How about AMD64 support for quite some time? Windows is just now getting ready to make that happen
How about large scale clustering? Linux powers the world’s most advanced supercomputers and has for some time. MS just annouced the Windows equivalent has been delayed.
How about better inherent security? While all software has vulns, Windows is just now starting to get better at it. In fact it wasn’t until just a week or so ago with SP1 that Win2k3 server even had a firewall.
The stuff you mentioned is not Linux copycatting Windows or striving to have the same features as Windows. Its normal things that most every operating system kernel has or should have. On the UI front I don’t see *nix ripping anyone off either. Windows has been the same bland UI for a decade. Almost anything else can be considered innovative compared to that.
The Longhorn as it was originally annouced sounded like a revolution for Windows. The Longhorn of today sounds more like Windows XP SP3 + a new 3D UI nearly identical to what OSX has had years ago. Now that all the supposedly innovative features of Longhorn have been announced as axed from the project, I don’t see how anyone can be excited about Longhorn. Honestly, even the icon thing he was talking about is in OSX right now pre-Tiger. He should have just said we took XP SP2, really worked to improve security, added new UI features from OSX, revved IE to version 7 to include new features from Firefox, and put in a whole new set of APIs to make life harder for Linux.
If you never used a Mac long enought to know, then shut up.
I switched 6 months ago and everything Windows people said about what’s wrong with OS X is just lies!!!!
I am never going back.
So basically you are saying that Linux has improved with each release.
Thanks. I was not aware that progress was the intention.
Yes, Linux has imporved just not as far and as fast as Windows.
For example, Windows security model was a total joke just 2 years ago. Now, windows is one of the safest OSes. Once a Windows machine is locked-down (not hard to do at all), it is very safe from attacks. Longhorn will employ the least priviledge principle. Windows has kerberos authentication which is regarded as rock-solid and an industry standard and soon Windows will do away with 1 factor authentication and favor 2 factor authentication.
By the way, how’s Linux’s power managment support? What about wireless networking and driver support?
>Does anyone else know of any Linux kernel features that
>Microsoft stole and called innovative
Ill bite.
Tux the http server wich runs in kernel mode, MS did a similair thing with ISS a couple off years later, the might have stolen/copied the idea, hence even looked how it was done in the linux kernel, since it open.
You might want to actually read something about OS and there pros and cons before depending on comments from users.
“Now, windows is one of the safest OSes.”
Yeah its one of the safest OS as long as you have A/V scanner running all the time, firewall enabled, use Firefox instead of IE, and at least 2 or 3 different antispyware programs at your disposel. Windows is far from safe, and will continue to be until Longhorn ships. Thats giving Longhorn the benefit of the doubt, but I think LH will take a giant leap forward (for Windows) by incorporating what has been in all *nix for years on the user privilages. (run as user not administrator, then prompt for elevated privilages when necessary)
Maybe they will even let you preview audio and video right in your explorer,
Explorer already is able to do that. Nice try.
I’m still looking forward to Longhorn, but right now Apple is doing a great job holding my attention. I really dig Tiger and this year might be the year I go Mac (if I can get some extra money)
Then don’t post in the thread?
how can someone get away with a default theme like luna?
why ist it that they ship something as default that looks as if it were designed for either 5yo kids or idiots? … uhhh sorry, i was carried away.
Just look at most linux distros up until recently. Keramik or whatever was so UGLY. Motif style interfaces for so long. W95 clones.. gah.
The big problem Longhorn is facing is that for everyone who doesn’t have the recommended Pentium 4 3.4 GHz and 2 GB of RAM it would be a very sluggish experience. I rather stick to Linux which runs blazing fast on my on my P4 2.0GHz and you don’t have all those problems with viruses etc.
So you have the final version of Longhorn? Awesome, let’s see it!
Looking forward to see if Longhorn will clear up all the issues that plague XP like cruft being left over after uninstalling an app.
Blame the software vendors, not Microsoft. If you use MSI (microsofts installer), it will remove everything properly. You can also use a third party one and it may not. Or use a custom one and it may not as well.
How about AMD64 support for quite some time?
Supporting a new architecture is innovative??
How about large scale clustering?
Linux tries to be a jack of all trades, and even if you don’t agree, this hurts it. Windows is more specific.
How about better inherent security?
How is this a feature?
The Longhorn of today sounds more like Windows XP SP3 + a new 3D UI nearly identical to what OSX has had years ago.
You don’t know what Indigo is do you?
He should have just said we took XP SP2[i]
Actually they’re using the Windows Server 2003 core now, mainly for stability and security reasons. This is a big reason it was delayed, because they restarted using this core, for VERY GOOD reason.
[i]really worked to improve security, added new UI features from OSX, revved IE to version 7 to include new features from Firefox, and put in a whole new set of APIs to make life harder for Linux.
*blink*
So basically you are saying that Linux has improved with each release.
Wow, talk about missing the point. I guess it’s only ok for Linux to “improve”, but Windows it is not because it is “catching up” and “copying”.
What about wireless networking and driver support?
Still sucks
I couldn’t use FC3 or Ubuntu on my system because my wireless card did not work despite claims by people that it did. I had to get a new kernel with a 16k stack size, but it still didn’t work and even caused more issues with my system.
http://my.opera.com/forums/showthread.php?s=66f6620e787a77e1ee1be06…
Read that buddy. Just the last part of it, with the links
Yeah, I bought a Mac Mini to switch over to OSX.. well, that hasn’t worked out too well. Here’s some MAJOR problems I have with the OS..
Quicktime… the default player on my OS doesn’t do full screen? I have to pay for it?
AlsoIt doesn’t support all the codecs a windows/linux box can handle. Perhaps I don’t understand OSX enough yet, but I’m having serious problems getting it to play anything based on windows codecs.. that’s bull crap. At least on Windows I can load the codecs for Quicktime Alternative to watch everything I want…
Plus, when I play a wmv file it looks WAY pixelated compared to the same file over on a Windows box… what’s up with that???????
If Quicktime 7 makes me pay to get full screen.. then I am definitely not going to be happy…. is Apple listening???
“(yes i use cedega and most games require some definite .conf config changes… THEN ITS NOT WORTH A DAMN
this begs the question… if you feel that it’s not worth a damn, then why do you use cedega? And did/do you pay for it?
, who wants to fuck with configs to get half life 2 working…. “
Someone who doesn’t care to dual boot or run Windows at all and is willing to accept the consequences of that decision.
The fact is, your attitude (and that of many other posters) is terrible. You would prefer to disparage someone else’s work than to be a part of that community. How many people who truly care about something they’re a part of, who work so hard to make it better/make a difference, spend their time discussing how worthless it is? I would guess, not many.
You don’t like it, fine. This is a volunteer group effort. Be a part of that or don’t.
This goes for both sides, people. Something meaningful is never going to be created out of simply hating the other person.
/Idealistic, I know.
First off I wasn’t responding to the topic but to another poster…you missed my point.
I never said Windows can’t improve. I want it too so I can stop running around putting out spyware/malware problems everyweek. The point I was making is that in 10 years Windows improvements have been under the hood. Security has never been a real concern until now. Until Longhorn, UI eyecandy, new innovative and useful UI function, or other useful OS features or functions were not even on the agenda. Take a look at the UI in win95 and compare it to XP. Take a look at the actual feature sets of the 2. XP is just a refined version of the same thing in so far as the UI and features are concerned. The bulk of the evolution of windows has been under the hood trying to make it suck less. Longhorn will finally change that. By contrast look what Apple has been able to accomplish in such a short period of time with OSX.
I won’t compare Linux is this discussion because Linux may be good for some ppl on the desktop, but it still has a long way to go. I would say another year or so from what Ive seen and used (yes I have used several of the latest distros). So far I like the direction Novell is going, but they told us flat out at Brainshare that they won’t be competing on the desktop until late 2006 with NLD.
VCV: “You don’t know what Indigo is do you?”
VCV, do you know what Indigo is? He was talking about the graphic subsystem and here you are quoting stuff about the .Net networking features.
And as for Anonymous, you were talking about Microsoft codecs, how is that relevant to Apple, maybe you should blame MS for that since they are the ones who provide said codecs. I do agree with you about the full-screen issue though. Try MPlayer and VNC they both provide excellent codec support for pretty much ALL files.
Quicktime… the default player on my OS doesn’t do full screen? I have to pay for it?
AlsoIt doesn’t support all the codecs a windows/linux box can handle. Perhaps I don’t understand OSX enough yet, but I’m having serious problems getting it to play anything based on windows codecs.. that’s bull crap. At least on Windows I can load the codecs for Quicktime Alternative to watch everything I want…
Plus, when I play a wmv file it looks WAY pixelated compared to the same file over on a Windows box… what’s up with that???????
The bit about Quicktime does suck. However, download VLC (it’s free) and use this as your default player instead. It plays just about any format you can throw at it.
I don’t know what you mean about WMV files looking pixelated, I haven’t personally seen this. Media Player is far from perfect on the Mac but at least it works. Most of the time.
Okay. Educate me. […]
Is there some aspect of the Linux kernel or OSS applications that make it more innovative than OS X or Windows?
I am not absolutely sure you aren’t trolling. If you are not, please accept my apologies.
There are actually quite a few nice and sweet features that the standard Windows desktop simply lacks, making it considerably less convenient to use. I am not talking about revolutionary innovations, it’s many simple yet elegant ways of using a desktop such as virtual screens (please, don’t, I have tried many of those available for Windows), the pager that allows moving windows from one screen to another, the middle-click that vertically maximises a window while a right-click maximises it horizontally. The ability for several users to be logged in simultaneously and switch between their own customised desktops by simply typing a hotkey (we’re using this a lot over here). What about test-driving a completely different GUI by right-clicking the list of available applications and select “Install”? While talking about installation: I can choose between installation from CD, DVD, or do a net install.
I’m in the localisation business. In a multilingual environment it is nice to simply select all supported languages (several dozens) for installation and let everyone select their native tongue for the GUI. In any case, I do have most applications I need ready to work roughly 45 minutes after starting the installation (granted, thanks to a fast DSL connection).
Any modern distro makes a nice desktop, or decent server if I feel like using it as such in our LAN.
Last but not least, I recently used a Knoppix live CD to rescue the data of a Windows PC whose hdd was in the process of dying. Its owner should have had backups but like so many had not. Data rescued, hdd died an hour or so later.
Well, the list is far from complete but you will get the drift. Look, I’m not even saying Windows is a poor desktop OS (which I do not think it is). It is just that it is not really innovative or convenient to use compared to a recent Linux/xBSD/etc. desktop.
What it does have (and free OSs lack) is the support of the large software manufacturers such as Adobe. Given the tight integration of workflows between companies worldwide, I do not see a change anytime soon so yep, Windows will most likely remain the dominant desktop for years to come.
You would be correct when you say you don’t understand OSX. Just like any OS out there you have to go get your support for other codecs from the internet. Windows and Linux are no different.
Some things you should get for OSX:
http://www.divx.com for divx for OSX
http://www.real.com for realplayer 10 for OSX
http://www.microsoft.com/osx for WMP9 for OSX (yes thats Windows media player for OSX)
http://www.versiontracker.com for VLC and/or MPlayer for OSX (2 great multicodec media players that play most anything)
I don’t recall ever having a problem with fullscreen playback for Quicktime, but I generally don’t use it either. I mostly use MPlayer since it supports just about all playback formats with minor exception. On the wmv playback you can’t blame Apple or OSX. Those are MS codecs and they get to decide how well they work on other platforms. Between MPlayer and ‘WMP9 for OSX’ I generally have no issues though.
During Windows XP’s lifecycle the following things have been updated for free, sometimes more than once: Internet Explorer, Mediaplayer, Messenger, DirectX, Outlook Express, and Movie Maker. And the following free additions have been made: .NET, MSN Toolbar Suite, and the system-level additions of SP2. Together, I’d say it’s basically equivalent to everything that’s been included in the OS X point updates (at cost). It’s not as polished as Apple’s offering, but there’s a lot there; probably more than Apple in terms of lines of code.
Apple does the same things with 10.x.x releases. Currently Panther (10.3) is at 10.3.8 with .9 due to arrive any day. All of which are vast system wide updates like the windows counterparts you mentioned….and completely free as well. Their larger more significant changes are the 10.x revs (Tiger = 10.4) And believe me, the changes are quite significant under the hood. People seem to focus on Spotlight, Dashboard, and Automater as the only new features, but you have to remember that at least OSX has features.
So lets take a look at your logic for a minute:
Show me the value of moving from Win2k to WinXP in terms of features. If you think the biggest upgrade to OSX since its debut years ago should be a free upgrade, then fine I will go along with you as soon as MS annouces that Longhorn will also be free.
VCV, do you know what Indigo is? He was talking about the graphic subsystem and here you are quoting stuff about the .Net networking features.
He was trying to point out that Longhorn will just be XP SP3 + a new UI, and I pointed out Indigo which is a major overhaul that will be in Longhorn. What part don’t you understand?
it’s many simple yet elegant ways of using a desktop such as virtual screens
Windows has it and it works just fine. I’ve used Linux for this as well, and I see little to no difference.
— the pager that allows moving windows from one screen to another,
— the middle-click that vertically maximises a window while a right-click maximises it horizontally.
— The ability for several users to be logged in simultaneously and switch between their own customised desktops by simply typing a hotkey (we’re using this a lot over here).
Possible in windows with freeware.
It is just that it is not really innovative or convenient to use compared to a recent Linux/xBSD/etc. desktop.
That is because it’s community driven (which could be seen as a good thing), and thus results are seen right away. When work is done, you see it. You can test it. However, all this test stuff that you see lately in linux is not refined. It’s not production quality. It’s use at your own risk.
then fine I will go along with you as soon as MS annouces that Longhorn will also be free.Longhorn is a counterpart to OSX. No reason for it to be free. Service packs and major new releases of Microsofts free software are similar to OSX10.x. Updates through WU and other misc software updates are similar to 10.x.y.
Now let’s take a look at Apple. They control their software and hardware market. They have a monopoly on it. When they make a new OS, they put out hardware to run it. Apple users are more willing to pay. Just like OSx was able to work on older systems decently (well, after a few upgrades), longhorn will work on older systems by using less graphic intensive features.
Just to throw a little fuel on the “who did thumbnails first” argument, Windows Explorer has had the ability to do this as custom per-file icons since it’s release in Windows 95 (aka 10 years ago). It just hasn’t been exploited that much over the years.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/sh…
gtkterm isn’t too bad for a hyperterminal equivelant. you can definately console into a router with it.
sorry if someone else mentioned it already, but i’m really sick of reading this “my OS is better than your OS” commentary
And I am reminded that Mac OS System 7 had icon thumbnails before Win95 as well.
“Windows XP = the same basic UI and function since Win95. Which is why MS is obviously so excited about Longhorn.”
I view this as a good thing. I would rather see the same basic UI from version to version so I dont have to relearn a new OS. Keep the changes under the hood. Minor tweaks to the UI are fine, such as the changed start menu to XP from the previous versions. Call me crazy, but I dont want to waste time having to learn a new UI every new release. So far, I think MS has been great about this. The last major change we have seen was from Windows 3.1 to 95 about ten years ago.
Now now, it’s not consistency when Microsoft does it, it’s lack of innovation.
It’s only consistency if Linux does it.
Arguing who did something first, who inovated it, who wrote the code …
OK, I do not know Tiger. Not touched a Mac for 10 yrs. But I did RTFA.
“…several key features that make the new OS stand out from prior versions …”
“…Longhorn also goes further than Tiger…”
After examining closely, I cannot see “First people to do this” or “never before seen on computers”.
just “better than Tiger” and “New to Windows”.
If we had soon Longhorn without some of the mentioned features , there would be a backlash of “but Longhorn doesn;t even have Thumbnail icons!” and “Where is the translucent windows?”.
This pre-release review talks of some of the features in the new verison of Windows, and mentions (favourably) how they compare to one if its major rivals.
If someone would like to write “Longhorn – Meh, seen it all before on Linux” then I’m sure Eugena will link to it.