More thumbnails and fullsize images of the new Control Panel are up under the Sneak Peek section. Have look at this great addition to Lycoris Desktop/LX before you get the new version coming out on June 17th. Our Take: Lycoris is shaping up as indeed a great desktop system! Only problem I got with these screenshots is that either Freetype or the particular font used is not up to par. The font rendering quality is truly bad, and I have noticed such problems only under Lycoris.
New Desktop/LX Control Panel Screenshots Up
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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Sure they’ve got a nice preatty GUI to show off, but does it work? Is there any substance beneith all that gloss?
Of course it works. Why else would they release it in 10 days? This control panel is a great help for newbies and desktop users, which is where Lycoris is targetting!
This looks suspicously like a nearly EXACT replica of XP’s Control Panel.
The first thing that came to my mind when I saw it is how much it resembles Windows XP’s control panel. I guess they’re trying to clone windows.
Although I have to admit if they get the whole control panel working well (ie. not too buggy) then I might give the distro a try.
I do not believe it is a replica (it is just a sensible control panel scheme that makes sense), but even if it was, really, this is a good thing. For Lycoris that is. I am all for their XP-look alike “plan”. For what they try to achieve (get a portion of the Windows market), it is common business sense.
As I wrote on my Lycoris review some time ago, the Lycoris competitors are not Mandrake and Red Hat, it is Windows XP but mostly, Windows 98.
I find it odd that the GUI’s shipping as default with most Linux distros look more and more like Windows every day. The key to winning over customers and users is not to show how much you can copy something else… Where are the killer/innovative features that a newbie is going to crave? Power users certainly don’t need Win clones on their desktop.
> Where are the killer/innovative features that a newbie is going to crave?
BeOS was innovative and different. Look where it ended up.
> Power users certainly don’t need Win clones on their desktop.
Power users are not the target of Lycoris. Joe Users are.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with emulating the look of windows- it will help people switching over to linux and not be intimidated. Is that a bad thing?
“I find it odd that the GUI’s shipping as default with most Linux distros look more and more like Windows every day. The key to winning over customers and users is not to show how much you can copy something else… ”
IMHO, the reason why Linux is looking more and more like Windows every day is because somebody has finally figured out that people using Windows want something like what they are used to.
Of course, this is not a good thing for Linux because you essentially have to keep ‘idiot proofing’ it to make it more like Windows, and idiot proofing adds bloat, which is not what *Nix is all about. It’s just not the ‘*Nix way of doing things.’
Hey, not bad, looks like XP. Of course this doesn’t violate what Linux is because Linux isn’t really anything, so I say, if it works, go for it. I am just waiting for the impending MS lawsuit over look and feel of this. If they copied OS X instead, they would doubtlessly already been sued. Also, if people start to like this, they may move over to KDE or Gnome later on, so as to get in with the “real” linux DTEs. Doesn’t hurt to get people to put there foot in the door by creating an illusion of familiarity.
I doubt that innovation was the cause of Be’s demise (as your post suggests): Microsoft, poor decisions in upper management, lack of marketing and harsh reality did Be in.
I don’t think that we’re so much complaining about the intelligence of Lycoris’ decision to look more and more like XP .. we’re complaining that we’re sick and tired of companies feeling like they have to play catchup with the software giant to succeed.
Perhaps we should blame Mr. Joe User … he always complains about how uncomfortable computers are but when you try to take away what he’s used to and give him something better, he screams like a two year old.
I do not believe it is a replica (it is just a sensible control panel scheme that makes sense), but even if it was, really, this is a good thing. For Lycoris that is. I am all for their XP-look alike “plan”. For what they try to achieve (get a portion of the Windows market), it is common business sense.
Well, it’s a stupid plan. Take Mac OS X for example, see how they manage to accomidate old-time Windows users – all that without delibrately cloning Windows. Why? They hire real usablity experts. So, to get something, you know where to click. And if you read the Mac OS X manual – although it is not the best book about Mac OS X, it teaches you to get started with it.
Okay, maybe this “plan” is good. But why copy the eye candy, the look? They can delibrately copy the entire UI, and Joe Users from Windows can get used to it, they could have a completely different UI. If they spend some money on real artist and they create something that looks better than XP, Joe User can say, “Hey, look at this, doesn’t this look great?”.
As I wrote on my Lycoris review some time ago, the Lycoris competitors are not Mandrake and Red Hat, it is Windows XP but mostly, Windows 98.
Red Hat and Mandrake (and SuSE, Conectiva and Caldera) don’t seem to understand the desktop market. When their products don’t sell, they sigh, “The desktop isn’t profitable.”
Red Hat and gang install by default up to 11 window managers, 5 web browsers, 3 mail clients, 4 terminal emulators, 2 office suites with 3 word processors, 3 spreadsheet programs, and so on (I’m sure you get my drift). None of them integrate the apps they bundle. Unfortunately, those who do integrate the apps they bundle are Windows clones (Corel, Lycoris, ELX etc.)
I’ll bet Mandrake would go down. I’m using it right now, and since 8.0, the product haven’t improved, only worsen (mostly). I’m seeing which distribution I should hope unto. I’m thinking of Debian and Gentoo; maybe SuSE or Red Hat; but certainly not a Windows clone (well, I’m not Joe User).
Hey, not bad, looks like XP. Of course this doesn’t violate what Linux is because Linux isn’t really anything, so I say, if it works, go for it. I am just waiting for the impending MS lawsuit over look and feel of this. If they copied OS X instead, they would doubtlessly already been sued. Also, if people start to like this, they may move over to KDE or Gnome later on, so as to get in with the “real” linux DTEs. Doesn’t hurt to get people to put there foot in the door by creating an illusion of familiarity.
From what I have seen, Apple makes legal threats to smaller companies it knows won’t be rich enough to fund their lawyers and win.
(Besides, standard KDE looks a lot like Windows, thankfully, it is highly customizable).
As for the control panel, it looks a lot like Windows XP. The only few difference is that the icon egdes look rudged, and the control panel icon looks different from XP’s. Along with the ugly fonts. What amazes me is that it decided to use HTML. So when an application, for example, want to add an applet, it must edit the HTML document. They should have use XML. Also, the title bar (on top) shows the location on the HTML page. They should have used <title>Lycoris Control Panel</title> or something of that sort in the frame page.
I doubt that innovation was the cause of Be’s demise (as your post suggests): Microsoft, poor decisions in upper management, lack of marketing and harsh reality did Be in.
However, it was mostly Be’s fault and less of Microsoft fault. They made no deals with ISVs and IHVs (except for smaller ones). They were terrible in marketing their products. They have good engineers and bad businessmen. And Microsoft just killed them off with decades old contracts (which was 100% legal about a decade ago).
Correction: un-f***ing- believable! All the way down to the individual icons! Even the HELP icon is stolen from XP, for crying out loud! This is truly disgusting. As much as I hate Microsoft, the fact is that they spent time, money, and effort in creating the XP interface. In fact, they hired a third-party company called IconFactory Design (http://design.iconfactory.com) to help them design the icons and design elements for XP. It took *EIGHT MONTHS* of intense planning and teamwork to create these icons. Now whether you like them or not (I don’t, actually) is irrelevant — this is time, effort, and money spent on creating designs that have just been STOLEN by a bunch of a**holes who think they can create a viable business out of making open-source CLONES of closed-source products. Ugh — to think that I could spend years and my life savings to create a product that could then be ripped-off by a bunch of jerks — and I couldn’t do a DAMN thing about it. That just burns me up, it really does. This kind of thing should be illegal. Un-F***ING-believable.
I will NEVER give Lycoris one single CENT of my money. In my mind, they’re no better than Microsoft: complete rip-off artists.
Jared
It certainly looks nice, however what happens when you try to install new programs? I haven’t tried this Linux distribution yet. Do they have some sort of “user friendly” installation/compilation utility where when you specify a certain archieved file, it compiles it and installs it for you (including rpm files)? That would be a good idea
The key to winning over customers and users is not to show how much you can copy something else…
Copying their competitor and allowing read/write of competitor formats is exactly how MS Excel beat their competitor (back in the day).
Mostly I think that people don’t want change, and people don’t want new features. Word processors and spreadsheets haven’t changed for years and people are still happy with them. In such a case you may as well copy the interface so that people don’t need to relearn pointless differences that programmers might create. There’s still originality in the details.
I guess system configuration is still being defined. It tends to be icon groups and it hasn’t changed significantly since Windows ’95. It changes with each version of Windows.
Jared White: are you saying that they’re pixel for pixel copies – or a copy of the style, or what?
Wow, couldn’t imagine it being said any better. Chock one up for Lycoris, right next to other such innovative open source offerings, such as Evolution. It amazes me that such painstaking effort is spent on cloning Microsoft/closed source products, and what amazes me more is the fact that the community generally welcomes these efforts. In fact, it strongly encourages them. RMS should feel defeated: the drive behind free software has nearly completely transformed into a desire for gratis-free software, which is exactly why Linux is such a horrible platform for any commercial development.
Hehe… Finally, M$ is “giving back” to the community, after all these years of ripping off and destroying so many of their competitors… *LOL* @ M$, *MEGA-LOL* @ your little rant. I like Lycoris…
Buy a brain…
…does this Control Panel have over Mandrake’s Control Center or SuSE’s YaST?
And yes it is a rip off of XP.
I have been doing “test-drives” of Linux for close to 2 years, both major and unknown. The final straw for me to go totally Linux was the Micros**t audit of schools….schools that have had to cut all of the arts and sport programs because of the lotto lie…but thats a diffrent rant. I just ordered Lycrois because of the looks. I have about 15 disabled people who want to switch, and this is the easy way to do it. I don’t really care if the icons look like a rip off or not, M$ has take’n me and others for too long. I have used RedHat 6.1 for a year WITHOUT a crash, and myself and 2 others went past the GUI after about 3 months because we COULD ! If it was not for the “pretty” GUI, we would not have even tried it.Use it or dont, but let the rest of us enjoy the ride! GO TUX !!!!
Linux has what, 2% of the desktops? Mac has 5%. Various flavours of MS Windows have the rest.
If you want Linux to grow on the desktop the new users are going to come from MS land. The people behind Lycoris, ELF and Lindows seem to acknowledge this simple fact. Those of you who criticize the GUI, etc, should get real.
Who cares if it looks like a windows desktop? Refugees from MS land, that’s who. It’s still Linux under the hood, with all the reliability, security and capabilities of Linux. Most of those windows users will never even try Linux unless it looks familiar and easy. I hope Lycoris, ELF and Lindows all prosper and spread Linux like weeds.
>Linux has what, 2% of the desktops?
Actually, it has less than 1%.
> Mac has 5%.
Actually, it has a bit less than 3%.
Please refer to previous OSNews articles about links and proof for these numbers.
I completely agree with him (except that I like the XP look, and it’s a matter of taste. Just like some like Ferraris and others don’t). How can you people applaud an effort like this? I hear you scream if even the slightest thing is copied by Microsoft, and yet you find it great when a company steals someone elses work (it’s the XPs icons, I use XP every day).
I find this “we must convert users from the evil of Microsoft to the only choice of Linux” appalling. It reminds me of religious cults. Why is it so important to get me to use Linux? And don’t give me the usual, I’ve heard it a million times, and it’s just as irritating as the Atari vs Amiga debate (both died).
My person take on this is that I want to see other OSes than Microsofts mature and get audicenes. You can’t do this by somehow fooling people into beliving they are allowed to be cheap and get a knock of of XP. And when they try to use all the software and hardware out there labled “Works with XP” they will realize that that isn’t the case.
Redhat is winning big time in the market right now. They are still total peanuts compared to Microsoft, but they are taking over in the Linux market. It’s the choice for companies and it gets special support. It unfortunatly was horrible the first time I installed it some five years or so ago (I can’t remember exactly), and it’s horrible today when I have to work with servers that has it installed.
I rather see a Linux distribution with its own look (KDE looks great these days. I am interested in running KDE. I could care less about linux and gnu) that rises the bar for overall quality. Better package management, improving aged software, up to date documentation on everything (and especially for developers, it’s lagging behind a lot), etc.
So to sum up my opinion: I want to see better Linux distributions, but this is not it. I think that M$ should take these people down on earth, and donate the money to small struggling software companies that are inovative.
Next week, new OS based on FreeBSD and Gnome to replace MacOS X …
John
I dont know why so many folks keep bringing up the ‘copied windows look’ issue. I have tried Desktop LX, and I liked it for the most part. In terms of usability, it was probably better than Suse 8.0, which is what I am running right now. And yes, the fact that it looks so much like Windows made the whole eXPerience more enjoyable. I’d ask you guys to try it before [i]bash[i]ing it!
Copying their competitor and allowing read/write of competitor formats is exactly how MS Excel beat their competitor (back in the day).
MS Excel had support for Lotus 1-2-3 file formats, but wasn’t a blatant rip off from it. (After all, Lotus 1-2-3 was cheap crap).
Mostly I think that people don’t want change, and people don’t want new features. Word processors and spreadsheets haven’t changed for years and people are still happy with them. In such a case you may as well copy the interface so that people don’t need to relearn pointless differences that programmers might create. There’s still originality in the details.
You seem to think that you speak for a lot of people. People don’t mind moving and relearning if after doing so they would be more productive. BTW, Word processors and spreedsheets have added more and more features. I can’t imagine myself being able to use Office 95 or 97. These extra features may be a overkill for most users, but it wasn’t made for ordinary grandmas, Microsoft have MS Works for that (which also BTW, have included a lot of new features).
Jared White: are you saying that they’re pixel for pixel copies – or a copy of the style, or what?
They didn’t copy pixel for pixel, they copy it using the same style and default colour scheme as Windows XP. (It’s a lame copy, if you ask me, it is unable to look better than Windows XP, and certainly has a less better UI than Windows XP).
If you want Linux to grow on the desktop the new users are going to come from MS land. The people behind Lycoris, ELF and Lindows seem to acknowledge this simple fact. Those of you who criticize the GUI, etc, should get real.
You guys haven’t proven that moving to another GUI would be hard for normal users. I got a few examples:
http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2861736,00.ht…
– David Coursey, a long time Windows zealot, and I’m sure very used to Windows.
A wonder how Mac OS X could accomadate Dave without cloning Windows XP UI (everything from the location of the menu bars right down to the icons is different from Windows XP, except for a very few differences).
FACT: For new users to move to Linux, you DON’T need to clone Windows UI. You NEED to make a logical user interface so new users, regardless from which platform they are from. If Windows user don’t know how to use their own systems, I can’t imagine them using a cheap clone of it.
Please refer to previous OSNews articles about links and proof for these numbers.
I think the numbers are there just to prove a point, not to be accurate. He is saying that Linux and Mac OS has so little market. (The last I check, which was the beginning of the year, Linux has 1.5-1.8% in world market. Plus, Mac OS had 5% market share in the US, but 2.8% around the globe. Correct me if I’m wrong)
it looks nice, but the design is 100% windows XP’s design. why copy microsoft? why don’t be innovative?
i already tried lycoris, but uninstalled it later because it remembered me _too much_ of windows.
I’m so buying a copy of Update2 when it comes out, so I can finally convert my sister and my gf to using Linux (Gentoo is a bit much for them as it is)
If Aliens ever visit the earth, (accordingly to Hollywood), they will mostly look like humans in order to fool us & take over us.
The test is, what do they eat, do they crap, are they anxious to mate, do they bleed the same?
The same for these WinLins, it looks like they may be easy enough to set up and use for awhile, but the real test is what happens when they eat new HW, do they crap on it, & is it easy to lay them (in a network with other win users)?
How well does the Add_Remove_HW work?
As for the Teletubies XP cloning, I think they should have done what Mozilla did, design their own distinctive icon set but use the look & feel of the start menu, control panels etc & just let somebody else provide the alt skins (& lawyers). This approach would have been much more interesting to see what skins would show up, (OSX, BeOS, Alien etc).
But I will give them a try to see if I can switch my wife, but it probably won’t work when it comes to her web sites choices. Although I switched to Mozilla, it still doesn’t work right for Chinese sites even on w2k so I doubt it for any WinLin for now.
Jared is right. The icons are obviously designed to mimic (as closely as possible) all the icons in WinXP (I use XP along side BeOS, so I know when I see people ripping off the designs of either – both is/was done often). The help icon is 100% the same except for slight color variation. Hate Microsoft or not, this is what’s called a copyright infringement. When you copy the look and feel of something, especially with the objective of getting users to chose your product by feeding off of the sucess of the product you are copying, you are quite likely to be sued sucessfully.
Also rajan, above, is right. You do not need to clone Windows to get users to understand an OS. Most users I deal with don’t really know how to use Windows, either. Getting them to use another UI would not be any more effort than getting them to learn the OS they use now. All users want is something they CAN use with all the programs they like. Offer them less frustration (with all their favorite apps) and they’ll be interested. Though, most users put up with stupid software problems to keep the software they use because they are lazy, cheep, or just believe their problems are caused by their own ignorance of computers (which is often false; computers are not friendly nor sensible, folks).
My girlfriend got used to Mac OS X in two days (likes it better than the Classic Mac OS). She got used to BeOS in the same amount of time (likes it better than Mac or Windows, but it doesn’t have all the software she needs). My mother is using BeOS and Gobe Productive instead of Windows98 and WordPerfect (not that WP is bad). Other than the crappy interface on Mail-It (which is, sadly, the most feature complete email app on BeOS right now), she seems to be doing fine.
Linux developers need not clone Windows to succeed. They do it because they are not designers, nor creative in the areas of design. With few exceptions, Linux is not being developed or marketed by anyone posessing true understandings of “User Interface Design,” “marketing” or creativity. The UI is mindlessly cloned, the marketing is “me-too” and the ideas are old.
(I am not saying that the code is not creative – some of it must be to get beyond the limitations of the OS & X Server design; it’s the visual-design and overal structure of things that the user interacts with that just plain stinks)
Jance ever tried iscribe?
I completely agree with him (except that I like the XP look, and it’s a matter of taste. Just like some like Ferraris and others don’t). How can you people applaud an effort like this? I hear you scream if even the slightest thing is copied by Microsoft, and yet you find it great when a company steals someone elses work (it’s the XPs icons, I use XP every day).
Actually, Lycoris copies more that icons. They already copied the control panel. They also copied the file hierachy of Windows XP. They even now going to copy Windows XP’s control panel. In the future, they might copy ths start menu, change Kicker’s style to Windows’ taskbar, build a KDE Style that looks like Windows XP…
Next week, new OS based on FreeBSD and Gnome to replace MacOS X …
I would find it hard to see how would GNOME clone Mac OS X interface… Maybe Window Maker with GNUstep would be a smarter choice
If Aliens ever visit the earth, (accordingly to Hollywood), they will mostly look like humans in order to fool us & take over us.
Alienas accroading to Hollywood has absolutely no scientific backing behind their “theories”, plus the existance of an inteligent creature is still not proven, no less of them visiting earth. Really, a bad comparison. (Besides, half the alien movies I have seen have the aliens not looking like us.
As for the Teletubies XP cloning, I think they should have done what Mozilla did, design their own distinctive icon set but use the look & feel of the start menu, control panels etc & just let somebody else provide the alt skins (& lawyers). This approach would have been much more interesting to see what skins would show up, (OSX, BeOS, Alien etc).
I have no idea what UI Mozilla copied. The standard UI and all the themes from the standard UI doesn’t copy the UI. As for look and feel, yes, some themes do copy, but Mozilla’s goal have never been to clone IE because most of the world uses IE.
The help icon is 100% the same except for slight color variation.
Not that it matters, the icons was built, obviously, to look like XP icons; but waste built on Windows XP’s existing icons (e.g. a blatant ripoff). The shape of the icons are a bit different, and same with the colours. Some icons, like the control panel icon, doesn’t copy it’s XP counterpart. But nontheless, this is obviously a XP ripoff.
Oh, on the screen, from what I have seen, the icons are rugged on the egdes.
You know, it is kinda hypocritic, when you defend Microsoft for copying ideas you get bashed as a troll, when you bash Lycoris/ ELX for copying ideas, you get bashed as a troll. So, it is wrong for Microsoft to do anything with their product which would kill of an weaker competitor, it is also wrong for them to overcharge for their products, it is wrong for them to make more money, it is wrong for them to copy ideas from various OS…
. At least Microsoft didn’t delibrately copy the entire UI of another product to look like an exact replica. But when a company does exactly what MS does…. it is right…. (talk about double standards.)
Most of those windows users will never even try Linux unless it looks familiar and easy. I hope Lycoris, ELF and Lindows all prosper and spread Linux like weeds.
I dunno, I know quite a few people who tried Linux because it looked different than windows, eg more “cool”.
well if they build a new UI make sure its nothing like the XUL, XUL is way to slow. It slows down mozilla so much.
If they create a windows clone – even to 95% accuracy, why would anybody use that over the os it’s cloning ?
windows will always be a steo ahead…
I have to kindly demand everbody to STFU moaning about Lycoris copying XP who can not prove that they were moaning about Linux copying Unix for the last 20 years as well… all righties..?!!
Has anybody noticed that Desktop/LX looks just like Windows XP? What a ripoff! ;D
This kind of thing should be illegal.
It is illegal, if the icons are copyrighted.
I agree with you 100%. I don’t like Microsoft one bit, but there work should not be stolen like that!
It also annoys me that people use BeOS icons so freely. Same thing as with MSFT’s icons, people spent time and money to design them, they should not be stolen.
Other replies:
I find this “we must convert users from the evil of Microsoft to the only choice of Linux” appalling. It reminds me of religious cults.
Hmm, now that you mention it, it does remind me of alot of religons.
I can’t imagine myself being able to use Office 95 or 97
I use word 97. It works fine. Well, not really. It is a over complicated POS but it’s does not have as many useless features (useless to me, not necessarly to you) as the newer versions.
I like gobe better. It’s faster, easier to use, and has less crap than Office.
but it wasn’t made for ordinary grandmas, Microsoft have MS Works for that
ugh. works. hopefully the newer versions are better than the one I have.
FACT: For new users to move to Linux, you DON’T need to clone Windows UI. You NEED to make a logical user interface so new users, regardless from which platform they are from. If Windows user don’t know how to use their own systems, I can’t imagine them using a cheap clone of it.
Not just a logical UI, but a logical OS.
IMOP, you don’t need to clone XP’s UI to get people to use linux. You need a well desgined, easy to use os, that has good hardware and software support.
There is no way that linux is going to get a good ammount of windows newbies to swithc any time soon. Well, switch and stay. It needs major work before it’s ready for that.
IMOP, OS X is a nice example of making a UNIX like OS into an OS that newbies can use. But just cloning the OS X gui won’t get you any where. There is more to a successfull os than the gui.
… AT ALL. Rip off, eh..?!! OK, let’s say this IS indeed a rip off.
What kind? Well, one manufacturer ripping off the other manufacturer… hmm… to be exact, one OS manufacturer ripped off the other OS manufacturer.
Are there degrees – CAN there be degrees – of ripping off in quality doing the exact same thing depending on what kind of apps you program?!!!
You are real pittyful creatures. I can name 1.000.000 applications, they all do the same, ripping off MS-design. Be it Adobe, etc, etc.. ALL apps carry the respective Windows look and feel + style, they always did. This is not only the case with the Windows platform, this is true for all platforms – BeOS apps “look” like BeOS, etc… it is on good record over in the Benews.com forums that people always demanded that apps ought to follow more the general BeOS layout and icon design, nobody ever thinks this is a rip off – but it is because there is no ‘genuine’ design thinking behind it what so ever.
So while noone complains about all the app writers ripping off the design of the respective OS they are written for, you do complain when the creator of a certain kind of app – namely an operating system – starts designing its app in a similar way. You may say “Hey, that’s quite a different matter…”, but it absolutely not – think about it.
One company made the effort of think up the design and all the others make use of it. I cannot see why a million developpers that are in no way related to MS can style their apps in the MS style but Lycoris cannot. If you think about it, all the devs like Adobe, etc.. abe actually WORSE since they specifically try to increase profit by mimicing MS-style – Would YOU better by a Photoshop fitting the MS-style of your XP or would you choose a completly non-fitting BeOS outfit for your XP?! All MS app developpers are thieves in this respect and all critics here are liars in self berayel mode – if every app developper can take use of MS style, Lycoris can, too… get over it.
My dim friend,
Apps for a given platform do not steal that platform’s look and feel – that is simply absurd. The company or group that designs the platform specifically produces tools and makes them available to application designers, more often than not with guidelines for copying the look and feel so that the interface remains consistent across different applications.
Microsoft itself produces style guidelines for the user interfaces of Windows applications, and IIRC it’s a requirement of their “Windows Logo” certification program. Microsoft also provides its own GUI/Windowing system with the default look-and-feel of Windows.
This is simply a matter of intelligence. Platform developers provide applications with toolkits to create application interfaces, and applications designers usually wish to keep their interfaces consistent with the rest of the system to minimize confusion.
Some applications require their own user interface layouts complete with bitmapped controls (aka widgets), i.e., most games, media players, etc., but most appliations merely require a menu, toolbar, and the standard Windows widgets with perhaps a custom control or two thrown in for good measure.
I can’t believe anyone would call this stealing. Well, anyone worth interacting with.
And now to address the comments regarding platforms adopting user interfaces that have a similar look and feel to other platforms – get used to it, it’s a fact of life. People innovate, their product becomes successful, and then others copy it hoping to dupliate the success. If Lycoris actually violated anyone’s copyrights by creating a distro with a similar look-and-feel to Windows XP – which I find hard to believe for obvious reasons – then I’m against it. I do not advocate illegal or immoral activities.
(Does anyone know why a Linux startup would purposely get itself involved in a big lawsuit with a huge company like Microsoft?)
For those who simply don’t like Lycoris or Desktop/LX Update 2 because of your anti-Microsoft beliefs, I couldn’t care less. I like it, it’s a great system, it has easy updates, and it’s growing in response to user feedback. Update 2 shows a lot of promise, and the next release should be a distribution to be reckoned with. Unlike certain other distributions, Lycoris takes the time to build – and test – quality GUI-based configuration tools. They don’t have everything, but what they do have works well, and the list is steadily expanding.
SO many comments here moan about how the Lycoris GUI looks like XP. Well guess what folks, that was the intention! Whether they are wrong or not (and ONLY time will tell, not you), they did so to make it more attractive and easy to use for people coming from Windows. Simple as that – they are a company and have identified a market for a product, and they are exploiting it to make some cash.
If they have infringed MS’s copyright, MS can sue – since when has MS have ever been afraid of litigation? Besides, MS aren’t exactly shy of copying entire applications.
And if you don’t like the XP-like GUI and criticise Lycoris for trying to copy it (“this suxx dude, why don’t they do something innovate!”), go away and get a different distribution that lets you have lots of Window managers. You can use Enlightenment which has lots of themes many of which are innovative and original.
I have to kindly demand everbody to STFU moaning about Lycoris copying XP who can not prove that they were moaning about Linux copying Unix for the last 20 years as well… all righties..?!!
Firstly, Linux as a kernel is 11 years old. 20 years ago, Linus was 12.
Secondly, if I was a geek back then, I would critize Linux as much as possible. It’s a blatant ripoff of Minix. But Linux is much better than Lycoris. Why? Linus made it in order to learn Minix. Then the project evolve to make something better than Minix and so on. Lycoris is cloning a moving product; and that is its main goal, and the cloning is to sell something. Linus was cloning a rather static product; which is used in education anyway, to learn about the product.
I use word 97. It works fine. Well, not really. It is a over complicated POS but it’s does not have as many useless features (useless to me, not necessarly to you) as the newer versions.
I like gobe better. It’s faster, easier to use, and has less crap than Office.
I personally like KOffice better, but for real work, I would use either Office XP or OpenOffice.org. Between the two, I would pick Office XP. Unless I’m that lazy to reboot…
Not just a logical UI, but a logical OS.
For Joe user, a logical UI on a OS that is reasonably fast is a logical OS. Even if the OS below is mishmash 16-bit code with 32-bit code (e.g. Windows 9x).
What kind? Well, one manufacturer ripping off the other manufacturer… hmm… to be exact, one OS manufacturer ripped off the other OS manufacturer.
Before Windows XP was released, Macheads were screaming left and right about a little UI features Windows copied from them. And in this case… 🙂
At least Microsoft didn’t make something that looks like Aqua, make it’s taskbar like the dock and so on…
You are real pittyful creatures. I can name 1.000.000 applications, they all do the same, ripping off MS-design. Be it Adobe, etc, etc.. ALL apps carry the respective Windows look and feel + style, they always did. This is not only the case with the Windows platform, this is true for all platforms – BeOS apps “look” like BeOS, etc… it is on good record over in the Benews.com forums that people always demanded that apps ought to follow more the general BeOS layout and icon design, nobody ever thinks this is a rip off – but it is because there is no ‘genuine’ design thinking behind it what so ever.
Join the MSDN. ou would realize one of the requirement to that that Designed for Windows XP is it’s look and feel. Besides the icons, the application is free to use well publized API widgets. MSDN also have guidelines how to build icons for Windows XP. Conclusion; Microsoft encouraged them.
As for OS copying the look exactly; nope, they don’t encourage that.
So while noone complains about all the app writers ripping off the design of the respective OS they are written for, you do complain when the creator of a certain kind of app – namely an operating system – starts designing its app in a similar way. You may say “Hey, that’s quite a different matter…”, but it absolutely not – think about it.
Well, that’s a quite stupid argument. Each platform encourages it’s developers to build an application consitent with the platform they are using. Also, users would find it easy if all their applications follow the same UI. However, OS to OS, it’s a ripoff. Why? It is meant to copy Windows XP UI as much as possible in order to get Windows XP market; not because they want to blend in with the OS they are using (because well, they are an OS)..
SO many comments here moan about how the Lycoris GUI looks like XP. Well guess what folks, that was the intention! Whether they are wrong or not (and ONLY time will tell, not you), they did so to make it more attractive and easy to use for people coming from Windows. Simple as that – they are a company and have identified a market for a product, and they are exploiting it to make some cash.
Ignoarance is not bliss. Copying a UI doesn’t mean it would be easier for users to switch. Most of the people I know don’t even know how to use Windows, how do they use a lame clone of it?
If they have infringed MS’s copyright, MS can sue – since when has MS have ever been afraid of litigation? Besides, MS aren’t exactly shy of copying entire applications.
I think Microsoft legal team learnt a lesson. If you sued a startup, they would make a lot of noise, and viola, they get attention they otherwise wouldn’t get. The same reason why Intel never had a benchmark to compare with the G4, even when Apple claimed G4 is faster. Not because G4 is faster, Intel doesn’t want attention going towards Apple.
And as for Microsoft copying their competitors, it is normally copying UI features or just features. They do not copy the look and feel of their competitor, like Lycoris. Is there any login manager that looked like Windows XP one pre-XP launch? Was there a Start menu similar to Windows XP in another OS pre-XP? See? Microsoft makes most of its stuff. It didn’t spend 4 months trying to imitate Mac OS X icons and System Preferences, right?
And if you don’t like the XP-like GUI and criticise Lycoris for trying to copy it (“this suxx dude, why don’t they do something innovate!”), go away and get a different distribution that lets you have lots of Window managers. You can use Enlightenment which has lots of themes many of which are innovative and original.
We have our opinions. Just like people critize Microsoft for copying the littlelest things, we can’t critize Lycoris whose whole business plan is to copy Microsoft?
Is there any login manager that looked like Windows XP one pre-XP launch?
The MacOSX one has the same list of users with cutesy user icons. Mandrake’s one from a year ago was the same, too.
Was there a Start menu similar to Windows XP in another OS pre-XP?
I think the main thing XP had was the recent list of applications, and the ‘recently installed’ colour change. KDE has had recently loaded applications -albeit in a side menu- for a long time. I’m not sure about the ‘recently installed’ colour guide – that might be a new idea.
Lycoris whose whole business plan is to copy Microsoft
That goes beyond copying the cartoon style of icons – prove it.
I don’t know if anybody else here realizes it, but Linux isn’t a lonely adolescent, desperate for friends. This whole obsession with attracting users is the personal goal of hangers-on and pretenders, but not the goal of Linus or any of the kernel maintainers in any way I can see. So isn’t it about time for some people to get a life, and leave the rest of us to be free to choose what we like, without the incessant hounding?
But I still despice Lycoris as much as I despice Liquid. (At least Liquid isn’t such a rip off as Lycoris is…)
But anyway, most of the world uses Windows 9x/NT4/2k, why not clone them? Why clone XP?
But anyway, most of the world uses Windows 9x/NT4/2k, why not clone them? Why clone XP?
Most of the world uses toilets…is D/LX supposed to provide the same look-and-feel?
Seriously now, I don’t understand the logic behind your argument here. How are we supposed to evaluate whether this is better or worse? Is it somehow better to clone an older OS’s look and feel? Isn’t it that much worse because so many more people are using it? Do the two letters following the name “Windows” really affect the morality of the decision?
But I still despice Lycoris as much as I despice Liquid. (At least Liquid isn’t such a rip off as Lycoris is…)
I don’t understand why people have such hatred for Linux distros that try to look like Windows. Most people didn’t hate Microsoft for Windows’ GUI look-and-feel; they hated it for: 1) stability problems caused by third-party software (apps and drivers) and compounded by certain (IMO poor) operating system design decisions; and/or 2) monopolistic business practices. Lycoris has neither of these problems, and it is adopting a look-and-feel that most PC users are familiar with. So why make up this ridiculous accusation about copyright violations?
You don’t have to like it, and I’m not discouraging people from expressing opinions about taste. But making up accusations about Linux distros you don’t like is an entirely different thing. Next thing you know we’ll all be Democrats running around screaming bloody murder about the Supreme Court decision to uphold the laws of Florida as specified in the U.S. Constitution instead of allowing nine Democratic judges to order the board of elections in three counties – which were also controlled by Democrats – to violate state law and federal law by allowing the election of the President to be chosen on the basis of their own subjective feelings about the vote count.
Of course, the Democrats knew that wouldn’t be very popular if known, so they invented many ridiculous accusations to provide liberal reporters with excuses for not reporting the facts concerning the election. So they hired a telemarketing firm and 70 trial laywers and got to work.
The press reported that the votes of tens of thousands of black Floridians had been thrown out. And it was true, of course, but very misleading. Why? Their votes had been thrown out, because all of them had voted more than once in the same election. That’s illegal, and they paid the same price as persons of any other skin color. D’oh.
Then we had the famous butterfly vote accusation. The Democratic party hired a telemarketing firm to call die-hard Democratic voters and raise doubts as to whether or not they had voted as intended. Republicans were blamed for misleading innocent Democratic voters. The problem? There’s no objective method of determining how many votes, if any, were cast incorrectly. The Democratic solution? Just let the board of elections decide based on how they “feel” about each vote… Nevermind the fact that the board of elections was majority Democrats, or the fact that the ballot had been created by Democrats, or the fact that high-ranking Democratic officials had ok’ed it. D’oh.
Oh and then there were the military ballots. Florida state election law held that military ballots sent from overseas postmarked past the deadline are thrown out. So the Democratic officials just threw them out. What’s wrong with that? Federal election law required those votes to be counted, and a Democratic Florida state judge – who derives his authority from the federal government via the U.S. Constitution – just decided that federal election law didn’t really matter. People raised protests, but in the end it didn’t matter: the judge was a Democrat.
What became of this? Very little. The press is more concerned with entertainment value and advancing their own individual ideologies (which happen to be majority Democratic – strange, eh?) instead of reporting fairly and accurately. For a recent example, the New York Times took a purported interview with the White House chief of staff from a tabloid – a TABLOID!?! – without so much as a confirmation from the person who was interviewed and treated it as if it were a valid source. It had the conservative base in an uproar. What became of it? Don’t hold your breath waiting for the NYT to print an apology on the front page in big, bold letters.
I’m just so sick of all these accusations!
If they have infringed MS’s copyright, MS can sue
Hopefully they will…
For Joe user, a logical UI on a OS that is reasonably fast is a logical OS. Even if the OS below is mishmash 16-bit code with 32-bit code (e.g. Windows 9x).
If you put a good UI on top of the rest of linux, all your going to have is a good UI. The rest will still be a pain to use and overly complicated. Linux doesn’t need just a new UI, but a whole redesign. Go ahead and falme me for saying that if you want (my e-mail address is avalible), I dont care.
You can’t just put a good GUI on top of a server OS and expect people to flock to it.
I personally like KOffice better, but for real work, I would use either Office XP or OpenOffice.org. Between the two, I would pick Office XP. Unless I’m that lazy to reboot…
KOffice is okay, but I don’t use kde much… I haven’t tried openoffice yet.
Most of the people I know don’t even know how to use Windows, how do they use a lame clone of it?
Yep. Has it occured to the people that making Linux easier to use might help them? Of course, the avrage Joe user won’t switch to windows unless his programs run on it. No matter how easy it is to use. Or how free.
Is there any login manager that looked like Windows XP one pre-XP launch?
The MacOSX one has the same list of users with cutesy user icons.
No. Windows XP has the same icons as the OSX one. OSX came out first.
YNext thing you know we’ll all be Democrats running around screaming bloody murder about the Supreme Court decision to uphold the laws of Florida as specified in the U.S. Constitution instead of allowing nine Democratic judges to order the board of elections in three counties – which were also controlled by Democrats – to violate state law and federal law by allowing the election of the President to be chosen on the basis of their own subjective feelings about the vote count.
Woah dude! Your asking to be flamed by a zillion people aren’t ya? lol… (as a side note, the country does need some major election reform. not just in florida, but every where.)
instead of reporting fairly and accurately
When has the traditional press (tv, print and radio news – websites not included) ever done that? They almost allways do things if it can benifit them. Or if it would hurt them if they didn’t.
hmm, woops. i made a typo. i spelled falme wrong. what a shock. (note to self: be more carefull next time)
:/
Woah dude! Your asking to be flamed by a zillion people aren’t ya? lol… (as a side note, the country does need some major election reform. not just in florida, but every where.)
Agreed on the election reform, but I really don’t care about being flamed. Losers are losers, wherever you go. 🙂
Oh, before some airhead assumes that I hate all Democrats simply because they are Democrats, I’d like to clarify it a bit. I don’t hate all Democrats, just the dishonest ones.
If you put a good UI on top of the rest of linux, all your going to have is a good UI. The rest will still be a pain to use and overly complicated. Linux doesn’t need just a new UI, but a whole redesign. Go ahead and falme me for saying that if you want (my e-mail address is avalible), I dont care.
Actually, notice the successful OSes out there isn’t a logical OS, but have a quite logical UI.
Users don’t care if under the hood they have some 8-bit code from Intel early days, and atop is Quartz Extreme. Maybe it does help if the OS doesn’t crash. But it is possible to make Linux easy to use. But to bring ISVs to Linux? That’s a difficult question.
Linux, the kernel, doesn’t need a complete redesign. XFree86 however does. It needs to throw out the decades old montrosity, and replace it with something new. Break compatiblity with old X apps, so they would port, and those who won’t port can stay behind and die. Xlibs need a total redesign. Make an API like Qt. Put in lots of widgets, so KDE and GNOME could use. They won’t have to reinvent the wheel and there would be some consitency.
Another sucker is ext3. Well, ext is ready to die. It should die, it is not made to be a journaling file system. It was just an extention, and to my experience, ext3 is the slowest of all the Linux FS I have used. Maybe Linux should build an FS like BFS.
(Let me guess, you was expecting me to flame you?)
You can’t just put a good GUI on top of a server OS and expect people to flock to it.
I don’t know, but Linux wasn’t designed to be a server OS. Linux kernel was made to be a clone of Minix, for educational reasons. Minix was an education UNIX made for PCs. GNU, which creates the tools with use, was created for philosophical reasons, and made mainly for the workstation. It just went towards the servers by accident (actually, some smart companies though they could sell Linux for servers cause GNU/Linux sucks for workstations, maybe).
KOffice is okay, but I don’t use kde much… I haven’t tried openoffice yet.
KOffice is the fastest office suite I have seen with a level of integration I have never seen before (and yes, I haven’t use Gobe).
Yep. Has it occured to the people that making Linux easier to use might help them? Of course, the avrage Joe user won’t switch to windows unless his programs run on it. No matter how easy it is to use. Or how free.
Not unless you build apps for them. Just say the average Joe uses mail, Internet, and does some Office work. So, there are apps for that. Other than that, follow Apple’s plan, conquer a niche at a time, and expand your market as a result of thereof.
No. Windows XP has the same icons as the OSX one. OSX came out first.
Okay, I may be blind, I go check with the doctors tommorrow. But OS X icons are photorealitic, and XP icons are pastel cartons. They look very different. Even the ideas behind the icons are different. For example, in XP, Favourites is a star, in OS X it is a heart. Stop and Refresh is pages with an “X” and a recyling icon on it, resspectively. If you can say XP copies OS X icons, which looks a lot different, and I mean a LOT, then you can say any OS copied OS X icons.
Oh, before some airhead assumes that I hate all Democrats simply because they are Democrats, I’d like to clarify it a bit. I don’t hate all Democrats, just the dishonest ones.
I’m not an American but it seems both Democrats and Republicans are a bunch of liars. For example, Bush promised to have a free market; and viola, he raise steel tariffs (and effectively pushing British and Japanese steel companies close to bankruptcy). He also promised lower taxes. A bunch of liars I tell you. Better just vote for Nader.
rajan r said:
“Better just vote for Nader.
Good man! Those of us that voted for him were bashed by the brainwashed masses… “It’s YOUR fault that Bush won because you wasted your vote on Nader, you idiot!”
Stupid morons. Come up with your own complaints instead of repeating what the democrats and republicans taught you to say. It’s sick. I got the same word for word comments from people, acting like they were thinking these thoughts for themselves.
Makes me wonder if anyone knows what voting is for…
The USA needs much more than just election reforms… The whole economy, for example…
As for all the people complaining about those of us complaining about Lycoris’ obvious rip-off behavior… maybe you ought to read U.S. copyright law and get a clue.
There is a great difference between products that are designed as a “me-too” and products that are intended to confuse consumers into thinking something that is not true (ie: “Lycoris looks like Windows XP, therefore it must work like Windows XP”).
Better just vote for Nader.
…shudder…
Linux, the kernel, doesn’t need a complete redesign.
Right, most of the componets in Linux need a redesign or need to be restructered.
I don’t know, but Linux wasn’t designed to be a server OS. Linux kernel was made to be a clone of Minix, for educational reasons. Minix was an education UNIX made for PCs. GNU, which creates the tools with use, was created for philosophical reasons, and made mainly for the workstation. It just went towards the servers by accident (actually, some smart companies though they could sell Linux for servers cause GNU/Linux sucks for workstations, maybe).
I did not know that, that’s very intersting. But still, nowadays it is a server OS. Well, to me it seems to be. It seems to be optimized for server performance, not easy of use and usibility.
Note to the Linux folks: people don’t want to use the command line. People don’t want to use dos, they will not want to use a unix-ey shell. Try intergrating the command line with the GUI more. Like BeOS or MacOSX. Have a GUI sit on top of a command line is bound for trouble. If you can make the command line transprent to joe users, but still have it there for power users, then have a good GUI you’ll probley be more successfull in getting joe users than if you sit a gui on top of a commandline.
KOffice is the fastest office suite I have seen with a level of integration I have never seen before (and yes, I haven’t use Gobe).
Yeah, it sounds cool. I really love the intergration in Gobe, it rocks. KOffice sounds like it does a similar thing. I think i’ll try it out next time I install Linux…
I’m not an American but it seems both Democrats and Republicans are a bunch of liars.
Hmm, the politicians usually lie. Sad but true, they often lie to get what they want (usually) how ever not all Democrats and Republicans are politicians.
For example, Bush promised to have a free market; and viola, he raise steel tariffs (and effectively pushing British and Japanese steel companies close to bankruptcy). He also promised lower taxes. A bunch of liars I tell you. Better just vote for Nader.
I am dissapointed in Bush, but he is doing better than I expected. Personally, Nader had a lot of ideas I liked. I might have voted for him if I could have (too young for the 2000 election). Mabye.
“It’s YOUR fault that Bush won because you wasted your vote on Nader, you idiot!”
Bull! A poll that was in Time shows that that is not true. The ammount of people who would have voted for gore if nader did not run was just a few percent (1 ort 2) larger than the ammount that would have voted for bush.
If gore lost (with all the election fraud and screw-ups we cant really tell) it’s his fault and the fault of the faulty election process.
Not Naders.
The USA needs much more than just election reforms…
Yeah, there are a lot of things that could be fixed. Some small, some large. But election reform is at the top of my list. Fair elections are the basis on which so much depends.
Actually, notice the successful OSes out there isn’t a logical OS, but have a quite logical UI.
Window’s UI is not logical. And microsoft did not become sucessfull because of any ‘logic’ in the UI. Microsoft started when the desktop PC market was very young, they had advantages that no one can have now. And now, they are entreched in the market and can’t easily be removed.
Point: What made Microsoft ‘successfull’ has little relevence to the OSes that are trying to compete with it today.
(Let me guess, you was expecting me to flame you?)
No, not necessarly you… but someone. There are almost allways wild crazed linux users ready to send me flame email because I don’t praise there OS and say it’s the best ever. lol. you would not belive some of the flames i have gotten, they are really abusured.
jabal ja vashi imenyni.
I’m not an American but it seems both Democrats and Republicans are a bunch of liars. For example, Bush promised to have a free market; and viola, he raise steel tariffs (and effectively pushing British and Japanese steel companies close to bankruptcy). He also promised lower taxes. A bunch of liars I tell you. Better just vote for Nader.
Steel tariffs don’t help anyone in the long run. Bush said that he is for free trade, not that he promises to veto tariffs. There’s a fine line here. Bush needs the majority in the Senate to enact his policies, and unfortunately acting like a “moderate” is the way to get the votes needed for the majority. I’d like nothing better than for him to veto these bills, but the reality is that we can’t do much more than stall unless we have the majority in the Senate. That doesn’t make him a liar, but it’s a pretty big gamble. I sure hope it works…
As for lower taxes, he did pass a tax cut and we did get a rebate check – it went toward college. Remember that the first year (this year) is just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. Personally, I’d rather have a flat tax rate of 15% and get rid of the bloated and impotent social programs. Congress misplaced $13 billion recently… 😛
Good man! Those of us that voted for him were bashed by the brainwashed masses…
I’m certainly not going to blame you for Bore and Winerman’s loss. 😀
Window’s UI is not logical.
Eh?
How does news of Lycoris become a political debate, think about it.
I think the kernel does need a redesign, Xfree86 is begging for eutanasia, and gui (an api like directx at least) has to incorporated directly into the kernel or else it wont be able to standup in performance the next M$ windows version, which i think will drop the gdi and will use directx as the base for the gui
Right, most of the componets in Linux need a redesign or need to be restructered.
Asking that is like asking a 5 year old kid to choose brocoli over a choice of brocoli and jelly beans…
I did not know that, that’s very intersting. But still, nowadays it is a server OS. Well, to me it seems to be. It seems to be optimized for server performance, not easy of use and usibility.
Actually, because GNU/Linux had clone UNIX, it is easy to server applications to be ported to Linux, like Oracle. However, if from the beginning, the entire OS is to clone Win32, well, you would see GNU/Linux sucking on the server side.
Note to the Linux folks: people don’t want to use the command line. People don’t want to use dos, they will not want to use a unix-ey shell. Try intergrating the command line with the GUI more. Like BeOS or MacOSX. Have a GUI sit on top of a command line is bound for trouble. If you can make the command line transprent to joe users, but still have it there for power users, then have a good GUI you’ll probley be more successfull in getting joe users than if you sit a gui on top of a commandline.
Actually, XFree86 runs independent of the CLI shell; mostly BASH. (And no, Linux kernel doesn’t have a CLI shell built it).
Yeah, it sounds cool. I really love the intergration in Gobe, it rocks. KOffice sounds like it does a similar thing. I think i’ll try it out next time I install Linux…
Try 1.2 beta. It is much more stable than 1.1.x, and a few features and it is a complete port to KDE 3.0. Note: There are less KOffice developers than Gobe, and there are obviously less full time workers on KOffice than Gobe.
If gore lost (with all the election fraud and screw-ups we cant really tell) it’s his fault and the fault of the faulty election process.
Actually, I’m quite thankful Gore didn’t win. That guy is obnoxius, thinks once he is the President of the USA, he rules the earth. For example, while most Malaysians are happy with the current government, Gore had the nerve to come here and encourage riots against the government. Obviously, in every demonstration, there were so little people it couldn’t be considered as a riot :-D.
Point: What made Microsoft ‘successfull’ has little relevence to the OSes that are trying to compete with it today.
I have never said Windows was in the group of OS that was sucessful. All Windows release would be obviously successful, no matter how hard it is to use.
For example, Mac OS X was NOT a logical OS, but since it had a logical UI, many users could migrate to that OS. But OS X’s UI isn’t 100% logical. For example, to eject the disk drive, or to burn a disk, you would have to drag the icon to the Trash…. (sorry, but metaphoricly, I don’t understand the concept)
I think the kernel does need a redesign, Xfree86 is begging for eutanasia, and gui (an api like directx at least) has to incorporated directly into the kernel or else it wont be able to standup in performance the next M$ windows version, which i think will drop the gdi and will use directx as the base for the gui
You do not have to integrate something into the kernel in order to make it fast. BeOS is a prime example. Plus DirectX isn’t the most open 3D thing out there and is laden with patents.
(Besides, XFree won’t commit suicide, we would have to kill it)
>>Window’s UI is not logical.
>Eh?
If it was logical (note, I am talking about 98… I have not used XP much) it would not take ages to figure out how to do simple things. Well, that’s not really the UI that’s the whole OS
For example, Mac OS X was NOT a logical OS, but since it had a logical UI, many users could migrate to that OS. But OS X’s UI isn’t 100% logical. For example, to eject the disk drive, or to burn a disk, you would have to drag the icon to the Trash…. (sorry, but metaphoricly, I don’t understand the concept)
When you are done using something, you throw it in the trash. When you are done using a floppy you thow it in the trash bgecause you are done using it, i guess. Still, it is an odd idea…
When you are done using something, you throw it in the trash. When you are done using a floppy you thow it in the trash bgecause you are done using it, i guess. Still, it is an odd idea…
And odd idea indeed. Especially when you want to burn a CD/DVD, when you drag, the trash icon change into a radioactive icon (don’t ask me why). Maybe it could be rationalized with the writablity of the disk is thrown away. What’s even weird is when a drive is empty. Maybe it is to throw away the emptiness…
If 99% of the population delights in tying widows to railroad tracks, then somebody who went around freeing the widows before they are run over would probably be thought of with contempt. However that wouldn’t mean that tying widows to railroad tracks is right or good.
The US Constitution, the highest authority in the USA, directs the states to “make a list of all the persons voted for, and of the number of votes for each”. In Florida, the person who was charged with obeying this directive, a GOP party member, refused to do so. During much foot-dragging, it was discovered that there were “irregularities” in the ballot counting procedure, which is another matter. But the big problem was that the state of Florida violated the constitutional rights of the entire nation.
After the damage was done, somebody came up with a “deadline myth”, saying that it was more important to end the election on-time than it was to finish the election. In fact, there is no such directive. In fact, Amendment 20 provides for a situation when a President has not been elected by the time the term expires. In fact, the Constitution states quite clearly that the votes must be counted. Every last one.
So in this case, the Republicans were archetypical villains, and the Democrats were the Good Guys. Sure you can spin the story to make it look like nothing but sour grapes, but the fact remains that a grave Constitutional injustice was committed.
—–
On another note:
Note to the Linux folks: people don’t want to use the command line. People don’t want to use dos, they will not want to use a unix-ey shell.
I like to use “the command line”, every last one of them. I also like my OS to be a disk operating system. Much better than tape! I also like my “unix-ey shell”. So the claim is bogus. I guess that Kevin doesn’t speak for all of mankind after all…
>You can’t just put a good GUI on top of a server OS and expect people to flock to it.
OSX seems to have done alright so far.
>Note to the Linux folks: people don’t want to use the command line.
I have Linux on a partition for cross-platform development. I use the command line *sometimes* (but rarely) during development. For general work (office stuff, web stuff, multi-media stuff and so on, sysadmin work), I do not use the command line at all, just the GUI programs. Sigh.
I don’t understand why people have such hatred for Linux distros that try to look like Windows.
I don’t hate lycoris because it tries to look like windows. I hate lycoris because it is ripping off copyrighted work in the process. Even if it isn’t illigal, it should be. And if it is then i hope MS will sue them. There is a huge difference between looking like something, and copying something. Lycoris is doing the latter.
Note to the Linux folks: people don’t want to use the command line.
What is your point? If you don’t want to use it then don’t. Noone forces you to do so. If you use KDE or GNOME you can do almost anything without using the command line, in fact you can install and setup a complete system and start working with it without even seeing a command line.
Linux, the kernel, doesn’t need a complete redesign.
Actually it does if you want support from the hardware vendors who don’t want to create open source drivers, making binary drives is hell right now. I’m not trying to start a flame war here, i do prefer open source drivers, but some people might not care as long as their hardware works.
XFree86 however does. It needs to throw out the decades old montrosity, and replace it with something new. Break compatiblity with old X apps, so they would port, and those who won’t port can stay behind and die.
Why? And break compatibility with commercial unix applications? I personally consider X one of the coolest things unix got. And i can’t see why end users would care if X is here or not. If they don’t know what it is then they won’t notice it, and those of us who do know it is there can use its features. Features that are missing in things like windows.
Xlibs need a total redesign. Make an API like Qt. Put in lots of widgets, so KDE and GNOME could use. They won’t have to reinvent the wheel and there would be some consitency.
If you are writing applications you should use QT or GTK, not Xlibs, unless you want a higher performance than those 2 can give you.
Another sucker is ext3. Well, ext is ready to die. It should die, it is not made to be a journaling file system. It was just an extention, and to my experience, ext3 is the slowest of all the Linux FS I have used. Maybe Linux should build an FS like BFS.
ext3 works just fine for me, and it is quite fast. And you are right, it was not designed to be journaling, but if you want real journaling, then you will get a speed penalty. If you can do with pseudo journaling (meta journaling) then try ReiserFS. If you want full journaling, then try XFS or JFS. But for most people. ext3 is plenty fast enough and easy to use.
I think the kernel does need a redesign, Xfree86 is begging for eutanasia, and gui (an api like directx at least) has to incorporated directly into the kernel or else it wont be able to standup in performance the next M$ windows version, which i think will drop the gdi and will use directx as the base for the gui.
Yeah, great idea, lets throw the entire graphics subsystem into the kernel, im sure that will increase security and stability </sarcasm>. We do need an api like directx though, but NOT in the kernel. As for the gui code itself, with my 1333GHz athlon graphics performance is good enough. With good enough i mean that i don’t notice redrawing at all. On my 450MHz system i do notice some redrawing when the system is busy. (running KDE CVS)
If i have to point at the single biggest problem on linux systems i would have to say binary compatibility. I think the real advantage windows have over linux right now is that you can take a 10 year old program, and the chance that it will still work just fine is big. Right now on linux the chance that a 2 year old GUI program can even compile on a new system is tiny.
The US Constitution, the highest authority in the USA, directs the states to “make a list of all the persons voted for, and of the number of votes for each”. In Florida, the person who was charged with obeying this directive, a GOP party member, refused to do so. During much foot-dragging, it was discovered that there were “irregularities” in the ballot counting procedure, which is another matter. But the big problem was that the state of Florida violated the constitutional rights of the entire nation.
After the damage was done, somebody came up with a “deadline myth”, saying that it was more important to end the election on-time than it was to finish the election. In fact, there is no such directive. In fact, Amendment 20 provides for a situation when a President has not been elected by the time the term expires. In fact, the Constitution states quite clearly that the votes must be counted. Every last one.
Wrong. Completely and utterly, wrong.
1. The “deadline myth” is in the form of a law created by the Florida legislature, which is the political body that is charged by the United States Constitution with determining the process of election. Here is a link to the Constitution, please see Article II, Section 1, Paragraph 2:
http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/charters_of_freedom/constituti…
“Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.”
And here is a link to Amendment XII:
http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/charters_of_freedom/constituti…
You will note that in all areas of the Constitution that refer to the election of the President of the United States, any and all references to votes” and vote counting procedures are referring to the votes of the electors. The Constitution says nothing about how the electors are to be chosen, except that they must be chosen in a manner determine by the state legislatures. There is no magical “all votes must be counted” phrase that gives Democratic party members license to run around proclaiming that blank ballots should be counted! (see below)
2. The “foot dragging” was in response to:
a. Partial recounts in heavily Democratic counties, which is illegal by Florida state law, same state law drafted by the political body that is charged by the United States Constitution with determining the process of election.
b. A thoroughly subjective procedure performed by the members of the counties’ board of elections, all of which were controlled by majority Democrats, for counting ballots not cast for Gore and even blank ballots as votes for Gore, without even any conclusive evidence that there were any incorrectly cast ballots.
3. The “irregularities” in the ballot counting procedure were ordered by nine justices, which were all Democrats, of the Florida State Supreme Court, which is not given any authority by the U.S. Constitution for any part of the election process, ordered Katherine Harris to violate state and federal law by counting votes which said laws stated were invalid.
4. “But the big problem was that the state of Florida violated the constitutional rights of the entire nation.” My thoughts exactly! It is extremely unfortunate that the federal Supreme Court, mired under baseless accusations of bias by an ignorant and incompetent media, were pressured into allowing some of the illegal votes into the vote count. The legal count was the count taken the night of the election, as all modifications to the vote count were illegal.
5. “In fact, there is no such directive.” There is. Look at Florida state law, which as I said before, was created by the political body that is charged by the United States Constitution with determining the process of election. Follow the link here:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Stat…
6. “In fact, Amendment 20 provides for a situation when a President has not been elected by the time the term expires. In fact, the Constitution states quite clearly that the votes must be counted. Every last one.” It gives the states the right to determine which electors are sent to cast their votes for President and Vice President, but it says nothing about how such electors are chosen except that the process of election is determined by the state legislatures of their respective states. The above link specifically states:
“(3) If the returns are not received by the department by the time specified, such returns shall be ignored and the results on file at that time shall be certified by the department.”
Ack! I’ve killed the discussion with facts! 😛
How nice….Linux with XP look…. Ahuuuuu…WHAAAAT A BULLSHIT!?!?!
……..and very unstable!!!
To the maker of this version:”please own design and ideas!!”
Gee null_pointer_us, who’d have thought that you were an over-the-top knee-jerk right wing extremist? /me rolls eyes
Now that you’re done ranting, I suggest that you go study the Constitution (it’s required before you can graduate high school, you know). Then you can learn about the hierarchy of authority regarding the Constitution, laws and the states. Anybody who has studied for a Constitution test knows why a state law regarding county elections has no authority over Presedential elections.
When you’re done with that, I can further burst your bubble. For example, the Bush “tax rebate” was not a rebate at all! It was a loan, with interest and everything. Yes, it’s the “tip of the iceberg” allright, the tip of a massive spending plan.
So if you’re a glutton for punishment, go right ahead and parrot all those dogmatic notions that you never bothered to research!
Why? And break compatibility with commercial unix applications? I personally consider X one of the coolest things unix got. And i can’t see why end users would care if X is here or not. If they don’t know what it is then they won’t notice it, and those of us who do know it is there can use its features. Features that are missing in things like windows.
The only feature I see X is really good at is remote desktop, which is one of the fastest I have seen. However, just to run commercial X applications that won’t bother most desktops users isn’t a reason to keep the old thing. For users of those commercial applications, which can be ported to a possible new graphics server, can use X if they want – cause if they actually know how to use the apps, they would know how to install X anyway (okay, well, a few simple RPMs would do).
If you are writing applications you should use QT or GTK, not Xlibs, unless you want a higher performance than those 2 can give you.
Which is exactly my point. There are two main APIs, with a host of others like Motif, xaw, wxWindows. GNUStep and so on. And what does it create? UI inconsitency and lower performance. All I see between these APIs (except dead Motif) is reinvention of the whell, and if all of them pool up to create one standard API with language bindings (for GTK+ for example could use C, while KDE could use C++ and Gnustep/Window Maker could use Obj. C). It would also speed up development for ISVs which would either pick no sides or limiting even more its market by picking sides.
Linux/UNIX with X has the most fragmented UI I have seen, inconsitency among applications.
ext3 works just fine for me, and it is quite fast. And you are right, it was not designed to be journaling, but if you want real journaling, then you will get a speed penalty. If you can do with pseudo journaling (meta journaling) then try ReiserFS. If you want full journaling, then try XFS or JFS. But for most people. ext3 is plenty fast enough and easy to use.
I dunno, maybe it only happened to me. But the first time I installed ext3 by converting from ext2 to ext3, which already took almost an hour, the whole system booted so sloooow, and applications using the HDD would be so sloooww. Then I create a full backup, and reformated, and tried ext3 again. Just as slow. Then I tried ReiserFS, it was so much faster, around the speed of ext2. I never tried JFS and XFS.
ext3 works just fine for me, and it is quite fast. And you are right, it was not designed to be journaling, but if you want real journaling, then you will get a speed penalty. If you can do with pseudo journaling (meta journaling) then try ReiserFS. If you want full journaling, then try XFS or JFS. But for most people. ext3 is plenty fast enough and easy to use.
The guy you are replying to said nothing about merging the graphics server and the kernel, which to me is a stupid idea too.
If i have to point at the single biggest problem on linux systems i would have to say binary compatibility. I think the real advantage windows have over linux right now is that you can take a 10 year old program, and the chance that it will still work just fine is big. Right now on linux the chance that a 2 year old GUI program can even compile on a new system is tiny.
Microsoft is kings of backwad compatiblity. Unfortunately, that is what caused Windows to be so bloated anyway.
Anyway, having standard standard APIs as opposed of having two main ones’ GTK+ and QT, is a big factor of that success.
This is an aside–
When I was scrolling down to this story, I noticed that right next to the Lycoris flower petals was an animation of a butterfly with the very same colors. Upon further examination I saw that it was a MSN ad. You couldn’t get better placement if you tried! That’s creepy, like they knew…
Gee null_pointer_us, who’d have thought that you were an over-the-top knee-jerk right wing extremist?
*sarcasm* Sure, idiots prepare long posts with links to references, direct quotes, and take the time to debunk common myths, while only intelligent, well-educated people like yourself write short posts filled with name-calling and unsupported assumptions.
Now that you’re done ranting, I suggest that you go study the Constitution (it’s required before you can graduate high school, you know).
I did study the Constitution in high school, and I learned about the electors, how electors are chosen in various states, and how – exactly – each and every President of the United States has been elected since the ratification of our Constitution.
Take the time to read the email I sent you.
So if you’re a glutton for punishment, go right ahead and parrot all those dogmatic notions that you never bothered to research!
DIY.
When you’re done with that, I can further burst your bubble. For example, the Bush “tax rebate” was not a rebate at all! It was a loan, with interest and everything. Yes, it’s the “tip of the iceberg” allright, the tip of a massive spending plan.
A tax rebate is a tax rebate. This is reality, not Democratic fantasy land. There are two reasons for additional spending:
1. As I said before in a reply to rajak, Bush has agreed to sign certain bills that contain liberal agenda items in an attempt to gain support in the Congress, specifically the Senate, via the upcoming elections. The plan appears to be working quite well, and I hope it continues. It is a big gamble though, because we might be stuck with those bills if we get a Democratic congress.
2. 9/11 requires some changes to the structure of our defense and intelligence-gathering in order to effectively fight terrorism and terrorists as opposed to the now-defunct communist superpowers of the cold war. These changes costs money.
3. We need to prepare our military for offensive combat, which takes more money than defensive combat. More troops, more food, more weapons, more ammunition, transportation expenses, etc.
It is unfortunate but true: the government will have greatly increased spending this year. However, you need to be reminded of a few things. The deficit of which so many Democrats speak is not a negative net income due to the current year’s expenses, but the “deficit” is in reality the national debt, which is debt that is currently accruing but not due for quite a few years. In spite of the increased spending, there is still a surplus. Smaller, but it still exists. With this all this talk about spending increases, Democrats would have us believe that somehow Bush is running the government in the ground. LOL Like they’d ever spend less!
Back when Reagan got managed to get a tax cut through the Democrat-controlled Congress by leveraging his massive popularity, the Democratic leadership of the Democrat-controlled Congress made a formal agreement to cut their spending by an amount equal to the immediate loss in revenue caused by the tax cut. What happened? Spending tripled. They never, ever propose spending cuts, except to funnel money from one program to another. Never do they reduce total spending, even when the rate of inflation is figured into the mess that is the federal budget. Think about it for a while – what is the logical outcome of ever-increasing spending?
The next-to-last paragraph, in the next to last sentence contains a prepositional phrase “in the ground,” which should be “into the ground.”
*sarcasm* Sure, idiots prepare long posts with links to references, direct quotes, and take the time to debunk common myths, while only intelligent, well-educated people like yourself write short posts filled with name-calling and unsupported assumptions.
What a lovely argumentum ad hominem! Just because I’m not foolish enough to waste my energies trying to educate fools doesn’t mean that my positions are incorrect. In fact, I am fully prepared to support everything I said.
I did study the Constitution in high school … Take the time to read the email I sent you.
I read your e-mail. Since you didn’t have the courage to make your case in public, subject to scrutiny, I’ll sum it up. Essentially you misinterpreted responsibility to mean power. Amidst all the chaff that you inserted, you claim that Article 2 gives the states absolute power to do whatever they want when choosing a president. Not only is that not true (Article 2 specifically tells the states what to do), but it’s the exact same liberal interpretation that you later blast others for allegedly doing! In short, you’re wrong, and you prove yourself to be a hypocrite.
A tax rebate is a tax rebate. This is reality, not Democratic fantasy land.
The reality is that on April 15, 2002 everybody who got a $300 check in 2001 had to pay an extra $300 + interest, and everybody who got a $600 check had to pay an extra $600 + interest. That’s not a rebate, that’s a loan! Bush flim-flammed the public.
There are two reasons for additional spending:
1. As I said before in a reply to rajak, Bush has agreed to sign certain bills that contain liberal agenda items in an attempt to gain support in the Congress, specifically the Senate, via the upcoming elections. The plan appears to be working quite well, and I hope it continues. It is a big gamble though, because we might be stuck with those bills if we get a Democratic congress.
Certain bills? That’s pretty evasive! For someone who blasts me for not providing copious documentation, you’re walking on mighty thin ice yourself. The balance of your claim is nothing but name-calling. Put up or shut up.
2. 9/11 requires some changes to the structure of our defense and intelligence-gathering in order to effectively fight terrorism and terrorists as opposed to the now-defunct communist superpowers of the cold war. These changes costs money.
Those problems existed before 2001-09-11. Government is responsible for being prepared for such eventualities. Bush said that all our problems would be solved if we eliminated such wasteful government. I really don’t care what the excuse is for the flip-flop. My concern is that Bush is, by his own admission, throwing good money after bad. What’s worse, he’s doing it without a mandate! If a private citizen played on people’s fears and acted so dishonestly, that person would be run out of town on a rail.
3. We need to prepare our military for offensive combat, which takes more money than defensive combat. More troops, more food, more weapons, more ammunition, transportation expenses, etc.
We need to? Hell no!!! There is absolutely no need for the US to become a belligerent! If Bush Lite want’s to continue the family feud with Saddam, he can do it on his own time, with his own money.
If the US military isn’t prepared to repel foreign threats, then you can blame the GOP members of Congress who downsized the military, citing a “peace dividend” as the benefit. Since I never saw a penny of this “dividend”, I figure that we can use it to pay for re-expanding the military then. And if those GOP members can’t produce the money that they collected…they can answer for their crimes.
It is unfortunate but true: the government will have greatly increased spending this year. However, you need to be reminded of a few things. The deficit of which so many Democrats speak is not a negative net income due to the current year’s expenses, but the “deficit” is in reality the national debt, which is debt that is currently accruing but not due for quite a few years.
Boy, you’re full of excuses! Well excuses aside, the nation is still in debt from the last round of Republican spending. Need I remind you that the US was once the largest creditor nation on earth, and under Reaganomics it became the largest debtor nation on earth?
We gave the Republicans a chance back then, and they screwed it up big time. Trade deficits, Star Wars, S&L bail-outs and the RTC… Once bitten, twice shy. I’m not about to let them go on a spending spree again, before they pay for the first one. Fiscal responsibility is not juggling debt; fiscal responsibility is eliminating debt and living within one’s means.
In spite of the increased spending, there is still a surplus. Smaller, but it still exists.
That’s the way that compulsive gamblers think. Ignore the liabilities and focus in the winnings. Winnings which always trickle away… No, there is no surplus as long as you’re in the hole.
With this all this talk about spending increases, Democrats would have us believe that somehow Bush is running the government in the ground. LOL Like they’d ever spend less!
With something as large and as important as the US government, waiting until it hits rock bottom, then saying “I told you so” is not an option. We can’t allow anybody to play fast and loose with our national security like that! The fact is that history shows a GOP propensity towards reckless spending that benefits the wealthy at the expense of the electorate, and produced massive debt and poverty. The current Bush plan follows that same, unacceptable pattern. This cannot be allowed to continue in this time of national crisis and failing economy.
Back when Reagan got managed to get a tax cut through the Democrat-controlled Congress by leveraging his massive popularity, the Democratic leadership of the Democrat-controlled Congress made a formal agreement to cut their spending by an amount equal to the immediate loss in revenue caused by the tax cut. What happened? Spending tripled .
Two words: Star Wars Three letters: RTC Don’t blame Democrats for what Republicans did.
(Democrats) never, ever propose spending cuts, except to funnel money from one program to another. Never do they reduce total spending, even when the rate of inflation is figured into the mess that is the federal budget.
Again I see no proof to support that claim. What I do see is 8 years of the Clinton administration, where a substantial dent was made in the national debt, all the while bringing reasonable growth to the economy. What matters is that the Democrats actually delivered on their promises!
I read your e-mail. Since you didn’t have the courage to make your case in public, subject to scrutiny, I’ll sum it up.
I sent it by email, because as you’ll note below the “Your comment” field on this site, it says “No more than 8,000 characters are allowed.” Violating that by splitting it up into multiple posts wouldn’t have been right, either. I specifically mentioned the email in my post to avoid such accusations.
Essentially you misinterpreted responsibility to mean power. Amidst all the chaff that you inserted, you claim that Article 2 gives the states absolute power to do whatever they want when choosing a president. Not only is that not true (Article 2 specifically tells the states what to do), but it’s the exact same liberal interpretation that you later blast others for allegedly doing! In short, you’re wrong, and you prove yourself to be a hypocrite.
I quoted all of Article II, Section 1; all of the 12th Amendment; and Section 3 of the 20th Amendment. Not only does the Constitution not specify how the state legislatures are to appoint electors, it orders the state legislatures to appoint them in whatever manner they deem appropriate:
Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.
I’ll quote it again just so you and every other person who is ignorant of the process by which we have been electing presidents since George Washington can see exactly what it says:
Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.
Now go find the Constitution online and read it. The Constitution does not give any rules for any kind of a national or statewide popular election to determine the electors; it only tells the states to choose Electors however they like. Full reading of the entire Constitution including each and every amendment confirms that nowhere does the Constitution specify how the electors are to be chosen, and no part of the Constitution conflicts with Article II, Section 1.
And just to put the final nail in the coffin, you can’t quote the passage where it tells the states how to choose the electors, because it doesn’t exist. You’ll need to find it in the Constitution; I’m not going to continue arguing with a person who has based all of his accusations about the 2000 presidential elections on 1/10 of a sentence found in the 12th Amendment, with the word “vote” redefined to mean something that is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution or its Amendments.
I’ll be waiting for the full quotation, Speed. *chuckles*
Apparently you fail to understand that you failed to accomplish anything by playing the Electoral College card. Of course I know all about it; it simply has no bearing on the matter. If that’s all you have, you lose.
The fact remains that electors must be chosen. Declaring Bush the winner without choosing electors, recording votes etc. etc. was a clear violation of the Constitution.
The last time I checked, all of the Constitution is valid. If one tiny clause makes you wrong, you’re just as wrong as if it were a million pages of text. And all the non sequiturs in the world doesn’t change that.
You failed, Speed. I challenged you to quote more than one tiny clause in supported of your claim, and I challenged you to quote it in context. You can’t even quote a single complete sentence in support of your argument. Why can’t you quote the complete sentence that contains the clause upon which your entire argument is based?
You lied, Speed. You said that the Constitution of the United States told the states explicitly how they were to choose the electors, and you failed to provide any quote of the Constitution to back up this point. The Constitution does not describe a popular election anywhere in reference to the choosing of the electors.
You accused me falsely, Speed. You called me a fool and a hypocrite, when nothing in your argument is supported by the Constitution. I’m sorry but that irritates me, and you will have to prove that your interpretation of the one tiny clause upon which your entire argument rests is correct, by quoting the whole sentence, or at the very least bothering to quote the beginning of the sentence up until your clause. But you can’t, because anyone who is still reading this thread would see that you deliberately took it out of context and assigned it a meaning that is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution.
I will quote the part of the Constitution which you clearly misinterpreted, just to demonstrate all my points. Here it is, Speed, and you will note that as I have said many times before, it is only speaking of the votes of the electors. Only a dishonest person would take it out of context and assign it a meaning that the Constitution does not even mention:
The Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;
You have failed, Speed. Completely and utterly, failed. No honest person can establish a logical argument that the pronouns and possessives in this quotation refers to United States citizens because they are not mentioned here, nor can the word “votes” refer to the votes in the statewide elections of electors, because such a process is not even mentioned here, must less described. The only logical conclusion is that the word “votes” in this paragraph does not correspond to anything and everything we might happen to desire, but in reality it corresponds to the votes cast by the electors as directed in the quotation itself. Reality matters.
Apparently you fail to understand that you failed to accomplish anything by playing the Electoral College card. Of course I know all about it; it simply has no bearing on the matter. If that’s all you have, you lose.
I did not play a card, I made a logical argument based on the clear command of the Constitution, and I also demonstrated that the interpretation of one tiny clause upon which your entire argument is based is logically unsustainable. You have no point, Speed, unless you can tell me why you took one clause out of the Constitution and demanded that it refer to an election process that is not even mentioned in the Constitution. I asked you to demonstrate where it could be found by quoting it in context, and you would not, Speed. You have lost.
The fact remains that electors must be chosen. Declaring Bush the winner without choosing electors, recording votes etc. etc. was a clear violation of the Constitution.
The fact remains that the electors were chosen; they did cast their votes in the Presidential election described in the Constitution of the United States; the state of Florida did record the results of the election process that they, just like every other state in the union, established as well as the laws governing it at the direct command of the United States Constitution:
Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.
The returns were that which the state election law, which was created by the state legislature to comply with the direct command of the Constitution, required. Calling it county election law would be incorrect and misleading, Speed. It is a statewide election law, just like the statewide election law establishing the election of electors in the state of Florida, and very much like those laws created by all other state legislatures governing the election of electors in their respective states.
The last time I checked, all of the Constitution is valid. If one tiny clause makes you wrong, you’re just as wrong as if it were a million pages of text. And all the non sequiturs in the world doesn’t change that.
All of the Constitution is valid, at least those parts that have not been superceded by amendments. But that does not give you license to take things out of context, Speed. Anyone who constructs an argument out of the misinterpretation of one tiny clause of an Amendment, an argument which is clearly contradicted by an entire paragraph in the Constitution itself, has proven himself unworthy of my time.
Goodbye, Speed, and may you someday find out the truth.
…the facts show who the liar is, and it’s not me. You can filibuster and make false accusations all you like. You know what part of the Constitution that I was referring to, so claiming that I’m witholding something is absurd. You know that I wasn’t referring to the popular election — I said that was a different matter from the start! And that’s been the sum of your case. It failed.
You’ve been too chicken to even come near the points that I did make. So you go ahead and call me names while you write that big tax check that you so foolishly spent last year. I bought a whole car on a 0.0% loan, and I didn’t get suckered into giving away my vote for it!
The facts show that the only liar in this discussion is you, Speed. Print off comments 60 through 76 and follow along, starting with your first post on the subject.
1. You lied when you claimed that Florida violated the rights of the entire nation, when in reality the popular election took place in Florida according to laws created by the state legislature.
2. You lied when you claimed that there was no deadline on Florida’s popular election, when in reality Florida state laws specifically places such a deadline on the election in question.
3. You lied when you claimed that the Constitution says that every vote in Florida’s popular election must be counted, when in reality the Constitution never even mentions a popular election for electors.
4. You lied when you claimed that I was trying to apply county election laws to a presidential election, when in reality they were state laws being applied to a state election.
5. You called me an “over-the-top, knee-jerk right wing extremist.”
6. You lied when you claimed that I never bothered to research my theories, when in reality I made full, in-context quotations of the Constitution and elaborated on exactly what it said.
7. You called me a fool.
8. You lied when you claimed that I claimed that Article II of the Constitution gives the states absolute power to do what they want when choosing a president, when in reality I claimed that the state legislatures are allowed to decide the method of choosing the electors.
9. You lied when you claimed that Article II of the United States Constitution specifically tells the states how they are to choose their electors, when in reality it says nothing about how the electors are to be chosen and moreover the Constitution specifically leaves this up to the state legislatures.
10. You called me a hypocrite.
11. You lied when you claimed that Bush was elected President without choosing electors, when in reality the state of Florida chose electors in accordance with the Constitution.
12. You lied when you claimed that the votes required by the Constitution to be counted were not counted, when in reality the electoral votes – the only votes mentioned in the Constitution in connection with the presidential election – were counted.
13. You lied when you claimed that you were not referring to the Florida popular election, when in reality since the very beginning of this discussion you have been trying to apply your misinterpretation of a single clause in the Constitution to nullify Florida state election laws governing its popular election.
You have proven yourself a liar, Speed. While I am glad that you have finally admitted that 1) your misquote has nothing to do with Florida’s popular election and 2) you have nothing else from the Constitution with which to support your claims, you have yet to admit that with nothing to nullify the state laws regarding the popular election of electors, they still apply, and therefore your party attempted to pull the biggest scam in the history of our country by having state judges declare them invalid in direct violation of the Constitution of the United States.
When will you admit this, Speed, and how many times will I have to correct you to get you to do it?