Following widespread skepticism of Microsoft’s motives for developing its trusted computing platform, the software giant this week moved to reassure the software community that Palladium will not be limited to Microsoft’s platforms. Read the report at ZDNews.
Microsoft: Palladium Not Just for Windows
2002-07-08 Privacy, Security 37 Comments
and after they gain your trust, they’ll carve out your bone marrow with an icepick! if ANYONE falls for this one, they will pay dearly sooner or later..
Palladium is something completely UNUSEFUL.
Is a WASTE of resources:
I won’t use many CPU cycles checking for the signature of
programs I want to run.
Isn’t a protection from virus or exploits
Palladium won’t prevent crappy software to make the mess is making right now, outlook will continue spreading mail-worms and IE/IIS too.
Is just a Lock for my freedom:
Since I can’t use software from other party or software from myself (self coded and build or simply built)
Palladium is just a NO GO
if it starts really I will move to PowerPC or mips or Sparc.
Microsoft has made promises like this in the past, when have they ever kept them?
“Microsoft has made promises like this in the past, when have they ever kept them?”
Even if MS only manages to deliver half of this, it’s still pretty bad. MS Bob only died because it was trivial, just plain stupid, & unimportant, most everything else MS wants it eventually gets it 2nd or 3rd time around.
Perhaps the easiest way to get rid of this is to go after Intel & AMD & remind people that it is the serial # all over again on steroids. HW companies are more sensitive to looking bad as Intel showed a few years ago. MS doesn’t give a shit about the flack they get. If either of these 2 cave in, it would be over as that company would then take sales from the other.
“if it starts really I will move to PowerPC or mips or Sparc.
And what OS is it you are going to run?
I am still not sure if free OSs developers Linux,BSD,..OBOS can live with the buggered HW & ignore it or what. Or will the effects be so pervasive that web surfing will be crippled down for unauthenticated PCs? This is an all or nothing war, running away from Windows won’t free you from this scam.
I would go after AMD 1st since Intel maybe more secure about it 2nd time around!
‘And what OS is it you are going to run?’
Those are just ones I came up off the top of my head….
MS may keep the standard open now while they need support from as many people as they get. But what happens when the standard becomes entrenched and MS hold the reins. All they would have to do is change it, and not share the changes with any one. Suddenly, all the other players are out of the game.
I think the Xbox may provide a little hint as to where MS is taking this; a nice sealed box that will only run what MS wants it run. I know Xbox has been hacked, but they could make it much harder in the future: a new EULA (look at the EULA that comes with the WMP security patch), guess what you don’t really own your computer and you just violated the law by opening the case. A case alarm hase just sent MS your ID number and the police are on the way. Or less draconian but just as effective; seal all the circuits in epoxy.
If I was a hardware vendor I would be extermely worried. I doubt MS is willing to be satisfied with just having a monopoly in software.
And what if one does not like X11 and Unix? All these OSes you are mentioning are nothing but Unix or Unix-like. Where is the *choice*? All these flavors of unix are the same for an end-user, running the same desktop environments and desktop apps pretty much.
Only OSX is the one that is different because of its Aqua, even if it is still unix underneath. I can’t see any other good choice out there! BeOS is dead, OS/2 too. QNX is a microkernel unix too, with a handfull of apps only.
No matter how much I like running OSNews, the truth is that today the dominance is between the Windows family (~94%) and Unix (~5%). I would like to have more choice.
JJ made a comment of what OSs the previous poster would run on powerpc/sparc/mips. That is the answer. That hardware is certainly not for joe sixpack and neither are the OSs. joe sixpack will swallow MS tripe no questions asked. I’m sure that that poster is atleast remotely a power user and would be able to handle a well designed os running on superb hardware.
Ruprecht, I was talking generally, not about the PowerPC, mips or Sparc…
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Microsoft start off supporting Samba like this (open), only to turn around and now make things as difficult as possible to maintain compatibility? Anyone who thinks we can trust these predators needs to have their heads examined.
If Windows users are forced into this, the rest of us will have very little free web to play in. It will be just like the old days of internet before commercial web went hype. Maybe not such a bad idea. Since we are the more knowlegeable users, we are the ones forced to lead the attack against a formidable army. The 95% of users (like my clueless stepfather etc) will never know about this till it’s all over.
With what has been going down in the UK recently with the RIPA thing & encryption even being illegal in some countries (France etc), I can see a day when even personal firewalls will be illegal as that will inhibit MS & authoritarian goverments from probing my PC. By that time port scanning by anybody else will already be illegal so we won’t need firewalls anyway.
I would start at the Linux show at the MS booth, but I can’t make it this yr.
I meant to add another thing.
Right now nobody (well almost nobody) makes money off the web, we all saw the dot com bubble blow up. Once you have the security, the web will split into 2 parts, free & pay. The Pay part will finally have the tools to micro charge, I can see most ISPs setting up extra micropayment acounts, working hand in hand with the $ web forces to make that happen. Use Linux on a mips chips, well that would be like walking into Nordstom shirtless & shoeless & being thrown out.
“And what if one does not like X11 and Unix? All these OSes you are mentioning are nothing but Unix or Unix-like. Where is the *choice*? All these flavors of unix are the same for an end-user, running the same desktop environments and desktop apps pretty much.”
I’ll run Plan9 in my PS2*
And Hurd in my Power4, using Berlin as GUI,
* There is a MIPS port of Plan9, so it shouldn’t be hard to
get it running on the PS2
All of this can be done now without selling our souls to MS. If some kind of security/web services platform is going to be implemented, it should be based on free open standards that are administered by a neutral none profit organization. Not by a predatory monoply that has a record of, and has been convicted of illegally abusing its’ position at the detriment of consumers. Furthermore, any such system should be decentralized, allowing consumers to choose who they wish to trust with their data, and how much data to trust them with.
Then you could not only go shirtless but pantless as well with out worrying about being screwed.
Absolutely, but I think MS is trying to grab control 1st before more civil minded people have a say. Look at the authority MS already has over web stds ignoring all the open bodies.
WARNING!!! RANT FOLLOWS!!!
I see the internet being locked up by MS even further. Right now, due MS’s added server extensions and ActiveX components, there are web sites that can only be viewed with a MS OS and browser. Take that one step further, and you have websites that won’t allow you to connect without the Palladium chipset.
If the Palladium chip can be used to identify your PC, you will then be tracked across the internet, and have nice little targeted ads popping up everywhere you go. Just think of all of the data miners lining up to gather info on you.
And, Microsoft will make another mint off the royalties (if they choose to charge them).
What’s even more scary is that this could just be phase one. MS will wait until most are using the Palladium, and then start adding mandatory “features”.
I just hope this stupid chip is better designed and implemented than their software. Hardware bugs are much harder to fix. Even then, we will still have the “MS Quality” drivers in the MS OS to interract with the chip.
HAHAHA By stds I’m sure you ment standards but on the other hand M$ is also know for it’s web equivilent of STDs. M$ is a whore…
Although your comment about freedom of choice is a valid one,you have to admit that 95.99% of populous does not give a damn about freedom. People are sheep. Companies that can use that to their advantage are grossly successfull (M$,AOL,Disney , etc). Like someone else mentioned, hopefully all these power grabs by corporations will result in an “undergrownd” internet for the technicaly elite, the way it was ment in the first place. We’ll be left with EXPENSIVE hardware (IBM,Sun,SGI) that allows us freedom, but no one said freedom was cheep.
THat M$FT wants to castrate & Cripple your Linux box too…
“I just hope this stupid chip is better designed and implemented than their software. Hardware bugs are much harder to fix. Even then, we will still have the “MS Quality” drivers in the MS OS to interract with the chip.”
Don’t worry about the chip side of things, HW guys at Intel, AMD, elsewhere generally do a much better job than SW guys at turning specs into things that work. I know since I work on both sides of the fence as well. Anyway, MS isn’t directly involved in Asics other than meetings etc.
Anyway its just a serial number with encryption engine thrown in for performance, or maybe thats just a cover for the serial no that Intel got flogged to death on before. Funny thing is MS already said they can do it in SW, but they just need that damn no. Dressing up the no with lots of other stuff is a great diversion.
http://www.pbs.org/cringely Cringely believes MSFT wants to replace TCP/IP with basically a toll-road with the tolls going to you-know-who. I will have none of this. This won’t fly any more than DIVX or Hailstorm. Even Joe Sixpack won’t want to pay per packet. And I’M not even getting into the privacy issues….
So, what’s going to happen with the actual hardware?
Maybe some kind of USB-Palladium-Dongle will appear to make old hardware compatible… but WAIT! Why am I going to plug such device?
Maybe the US congress is going to send the Police after anyone using old, unsafe, hardware that can be used to steal stuff… Hey, where’s the democracy? The next step is making webcams mandatory, so the US Gov will be able to see if we’re misbehaving! HA!
I think that this Palladium thing won’t happen just because it will happen to prevent people from upgrading their equipament. It’s just so restrictive that people will choose to keep their old machines just to rip their MP3 and DivX;)…
I ranted on this last time, but shall rant again!!
1. Of course MS wants to get in first, even if they have to get help from AMD/Intel. What would a FOR-PROFIT corporation rather have; an egalitarian, international organization (see ISO) or a private corporate trust acting as an “open consortium”?
2. While the vast majority of people are NOT intentional lawbreakers, many are. Many are willing to break IMPORTANT laws (murder, grand theft, mass destruction) to meet their goals. My point? Palladium and the TCPA may stop you from backing up your software (which you BOUGHT but you don’t OWN it…bleagh), but it will NOT stop true criminals, terrorists, etc. taking advantage of inevitable, if obscure vulnerabilities in the system. The bad guys can still get you. They will keep their old machines to portscan, spoof, and erect firewalls.
3. Ever notice that when people get scared and/or hurt, they more often than not over react and make very stupid decisions? Think about that, and compare to the Napster thing, software piracy, and, of course, the US and September 11, 2001. This is unfortunate, because sometimes, they do NOT have the time to stop and think through their actions (i.e. a real war). What is even MORE unfortunate is that often, people DO have time to think through their actions, but they don’t, and then they can’t take back their mistakes.
4. MS won’t OPENLY move against the competition, btw. They will STRONGLY RECOMMEND against OSes which do not conform to Palladium. They might even manage to convince the mighty Steve “Everybody just wants to share stuff” Jobs, but I really, really doubt it.
5. How shall this apply to servers, BIG servers, and “Big Iron”? Will they get these chips?
6. You think other countries will stand for this? What about the eventual hacks/mods? Will there be agents at every chip foundry on earth?
7. You know, if National ID programs take off in the US and other countries, they are DEFINITELY going to link it with Pallladium.
8. The right rumors, given to the right ears, will kill this thing. Example: This new Palladium thing lets Microsoft spy on your computer, and it’ll add money to the computer price, and if something goes wrong, your whole computer’s broken!! Begin mass outrage in 3…2…1…
Still waiting for his Palladium equipped piano (the TCPA wants it there so you can’t play music still under copyright)
This Cringley is a total idiot. You can’t find better Anti-MS FUD than the stuff there.
No, this won’t work if you can just upgrade any current cpu, no external devices, no PCI cards, no socked components.
It has to be on the mobo with a chip soldered, and has to be complex enough that it can’t be easily reverse engineered & substituted.
In a way the release of XP with forced registration & HW change monitoring was the precursor of this. Anyone buying into XP over W2K is already half accepting this.
“7. You know, if National ID programs take off in the US and other countries, they are DEFINITELY going to link it with Pallladium.”
Now thats an interesting idea, & as I said before, ID implants for people have been seriously advocated by some, 1st for dogs, then criminals etc, then eventually ….
From what I have read, Wave has been working with M$ on this button chip hardware for securing the hardware layer and handling the encryption in the Palladium development as it is today.
Please note everyone, that WaveExpress (a subsidiary) tried to use this button chip to secure IP comms. There was a lot of hype about this about a year ago at the major shows. Guess where that idea is now? Yup, in the shitter. They couldn’t sell any (at least from what I’ve seen).
Looking forward to seeing M$ falling on their face…
Firstly, nothing had been given. The license haven’t been given. Microsoft is most likely not out there to get support of other OSes, because after all, it has most of the market. For me, I’ll wait and see, but if the information given out is correct, Paladium is optional if you don’t use software that requires it.
And Hurd in my Power4, using Berlin as GUI
If you ask the Fresco developers, it wasn’t made to replace X. Plus HURD and Fresco are beyond usablity for the next few years. And also, isn’t Power4 a server platform?
Amiga on PPC!
yeah an’ MS will charge you for each key you press on your keyboard an’ there’s tech-stuff that allows them to wipe all the gnu stuff from your drive an’ the license says you can’t play any mp3’s an’ you can only use ms apps an’ you can’t play any games an’ you have to pay every time you launch an office app an’ da ‘net will shut down an’ only ms employees can send email an’ no one can download anything but ms updates an’ we know all this…because…um…we just do, right? someone plz mention a fact?
can’t anyone mention a fact? plz plz plz?
*crickets chirping in the background*
well, we know ms is involved, right? AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!
*announcer’s voice kicks in*
We hope you enjoyed this episode of A Day in the Life of an Anti-MS Propaganda Nut. Tune in next week for the next episode, Hailstorm? What’s Dat?, where we’ll have a special guest star, Ste…*papers rustling*…hmm…we’ve just been informed that there will be no more episodes in this series because our leading actor was so terrified over the word “Microsoft” that he just ran screaming into the jaws of the KDE lizard.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming…
(I wonder…has the lizard thing been done before?)
Stop giving MS ideas!!
OK, lets say that the sky is not falling; why would you want Palladium? What benefits do you think a system like this would bring you?
It would bring you the security and peace of mind of knowing that you are in full compliance with all the copyright laws, new and old.
It could give the entertainment industry the motivation to finally get together and create a secure, digital media distribution system, now that content management is built into the hardware. They really think they need this. The RIAA, MPAA, TCPA, et al are quite paranoid, you know.
Theoretically, it would also allow one to be certain that any software one has is certifiably from the company that made it (like code signing, only stricter).
Assuming such spyware is built into the system, it could theoretically record who used what on which computer, but we already have spyware that can do that. So, it’s not really a benefit.
Sorry, that’s all the end user benefits I could come up with.
I think this is a little like cutting off your arm to get rid of a little boil on your finger.
The power and control is being totally shifted away from the end users.
The potential for misuse of this system is enormous. To me it seems to violate the presumption of innocence, you are beig treated as if you committed a crime just because you have the means to. Furthermore, this completely destroys all of your fair use rights. There are already laws against priracy, they just need to be enforced.
…is the first law that will be overturned for Palladium to set foot. Actually, people are trying to get this done right now (and have failed previously).
If Palladium flies then it’s easy to imagine a stratification of the net, and of computer use in general. People (who can afford it and who are aware of the need) will end up using two computers, one legit (Palladium-encumbered/enabled) and one for their “real” system. The Palladium one will let them access web sites that require it (if that scenario comes to be) and do other official stuff that requires it. And the “real” system will be the much-loved, enthusiast’s tool for doing what we do now. It’ll access the “underweb” where MS authentication isn’t necessary (and in fact will probably get you banned as a security hazard, ironically), for asserting your own digital privileges, and so on.
Even if Palladium catches on, there will be a kind of counter-embrace and extend by people like most of us here, using it where it’s unavoidable or even beneficial (giving MS the benefit of the doubt), but making sure somehow that that use is safely cordoned off, away from our more important personal computer uses. Who knows, this could be the thing that gets a new class of web appliances off the ground, enables alt OSs to gain a double-digit market share (well, all of them combined), gives AmigaOS/PPC a reason to be, etc.
This scenario assumes Palladium will be adopted as Microsoft envisions. Obviously it’s very possible it won’t be, at least not in as draconian a form as it’s been described so far.