It is rare for me to post a follow up to a review. However, this time I am left with no choice. Remember the television I reviewed? It was a fairly positive review; despite a few annoying glitches, I found the TV to be excellent value for money. Well, apparently, there’s a clear cut reason why this television set is cheap. Read and weep.The w1700 television from Dell suffers from a serious problem. It is a very common issue, as you can see by the replies on this forum – and trust me, this is not the only forum where this is discussed. The problem lies in Dell using a very cheap and badly made backlight inverter board; this board breaks down easily, leaving you with a black screen. Sound works, but that is it. This happened to the TV today.
After a quick browse around, I found that LCDpart.com sells a replacement backlight inverter board tailor made for the Dell w1700. However, this joke will set you back – gasp – USD 80. On top of that, you have to replace the board manually. While I am not scared of getting my hands dirty on these sorts of matters, I have always had a certain fear of working with monitors, tube TVs, and LCDs. They appear so fragile.
So, this is a common problem. It happens to many w1700 TVs; so many, that a third party actually sells – it even has them in stock – replacement boards. How does Dell fit into this? How do they respond? Surely, they have a replacement program, similar to what they (and many others) do with, for instance, laptop batteries? Well, you guessed wrong.
Read the Dell customers forums for the w1700 TV, and weep (this FAQ post comes from a Dell employee). They actually have the nerve to refer you back to the the LCDPart website, to the same replacement board as described above – meaning you are forced to pay USD 80 to manually fix their crappy engineering!
I was perplexed. I was angry as well. Not for myself; I got this television as a review item, so it did not cost me a penny. No, I feel anger because of all those people out there who bought this TV, even though Dell knew it had a faulty board in it.
It is perfectly acceptable, in my book, for equipment to be faulty sometimes; statistically it is almost impossible to produce goods without some error margin. However, when you know your product has a problem, fix it. Provide a replacement program. That is the correct course of action. Certainly, you do not send paying customers to a third party website where they must spend 80 USD on a DIY kit for replacing delicate electronic components!
The OSNews Top Tip for today: when purchasing relatively delicate technology, do not be a scrooge, and spend a few Dollars or Euros more on quality. No, really. Do it.
In most countries in europe, this would be no problem, since Dell would have to give you a free replacement, since its obviously a manufaturing fault.
(Provided you actually paid for it)
In Europe it would be very bad for Dell indeed. They would HAVE to replace it in the first year after purchase according to European law. If it breaks down after that period, chances are that Dell would have to pay up at least partly, if a consumer takes Dell to court because of manufacturing faults.
I’m pretty sure Thom is in Holland (a.k.a. my favorite place on Earth).
I used to have a 2405FPW. Absolutely great, and cheap, monitor, but on a hot Georgia day, the inverter in that thing would buzz something fierce. I’ve got an NEC now (20wmgx2), and I’ve never heard a peep from it.
geeks.com was “out of stock” on these when your first review hit OSNews… I remember clearly clicking the links to see what additional info they provided, only to notice that they were out of stock already.
Reminds me of a recent report I heard that consumers are looking for lowest price rather than better quality when deciding what to purchase.
I suspect this is due to the market’s resistance in backing up their products – thus the cheaper items require less initial investment with the same amount of unknown quality and lifetime guarantee. Not to mention, now-a-days, you don’t know how long something is going to be “viable” technology, so people are less worried about how long it will last, and focus on cheapest investment.
Obviously this makes for a horrible market for people who care about quality.
Oog. Sorry for your bad experience. Thanks for the heads-up.
Make good use of your legal right to repairs at no cost or a replacement, especially in countries which have generous time limits for claims on broken goods.
Some people think, “Well it’s only a mobile phone/camera/laptop, and I fancied getting a new one anyway, and six/twelve/eighteen months isn’t bad going for something so cheap!” but if you reward companies for producing poor quality goods and buy those goods over and over again (producing more waste and consuming more energy to have such stuff made in the first place), then you’ll keep getting the same poor treatment. And when that phone costs more than a washing machine which has a multi-year warranty, why should the manufacturer get off the hook just because the phone is “shiny new tech” and the washing machine is “just an appliance”?
And then there’s the issue of stuff being “cheap”. Even if you remember to factor in hidden costs (no, it’s not a free phone), insisting that a few hundred dollars is cheap shows a startling ignorance of how most of the world lives.
// It is perfectly acceptable, in my book, for equipment to be faulty sometimes; statistically it is almost impossible to produce goods without some error margin. However, when you know your product has a problem, fix it. Provide a replacement program. That is the correct course of action. Certainly, you do not send paying customers to a third party website where they must spend 80 USD on a DIY kit for replacing delicate electronic components! //
Agreed. When I was at University studying statistics in my third year, we specifically did work on fault likelyhood and analysis. I can assure you there are SO many ways to manipulate and present fault statistics that it can be misleading. One thing that became clear, is that if you you’ll never have a perfect production line.
As for the DIY kit, that’s shocking. If that happened in AU, the ACCC would be onto it, slapping Dell around hard (assuming enough people complained). I read an article recently about how Dell are going to turn their company around to be #1 again.. well, with this sort of service and *cough* support, this is very unlikely.
…and seem to be even more arrogant about it.
wow.
Back in the day, I purchased a 2000FP which at $1350 was anything but cheap. I went through THREE different units before I got one with a good inverter (and apparently a better LCD), which I still use to this day.
Dell had the arrogance back then to tell me that it wasn’t their problem, as the unit was made by Acer, despite the Dell SN and big Dell logo on the front.
Beyond that, they tried to make it the problem of the company I purchased it from, and from what I heard they got some rude calls from Dell. Most people don’t know this, but unless a warranty specifically states that it only applies to the initial purchaser, it applies to the unit itself for the lifetime of the warranty.
I don’t know what the case is now, but back then, Dell’s warranties did not make this stipulation. Dell claimed they made it in the ‘purchase agreement’, which as far as the Federal Government is concerned has no effect regarding the rights you get under the Magnuson Moss act.
My advice: If you get a bad Dell display, take them to small claims if you’re in the USA. It’s inexpensive, and fairly easy to do in Texas (as that’s where their corp agent is) or any other state where they have a ‘business presence’. Sadly it’s impossible to do in states where they do not, and this is one of the reasons Dell deliberately limits where they have a business presence.
Torrent link, please.
Thom, when you send the review unit back, I recommend printing out a copy out your follow-up and tape it to the screen.
“shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves”, in 3 generations…
But it wasn’t always thus.
At its full resolution of 1600×1200, my trusty old Dell CRT still has perfectly crisp text after daily use for all these years. “Back to basics” I’m sure is being heard in their boardrooms.
I had that monitor! It was indeed a nice display, but unfortunately mine got damaged by water a couple of years after I bought it. The Dimension D300 I bought it with, however, is still completely functional after all these years.
(( SPOLSKY NTSB )) is enough to google up Joel’s masterpiece of 19-Feb.
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/customerservice.html
(( “THEY JUST DIDN’T GET IT” XEROX PARC )) is enough to google up Larry Tesler’s epitaph on the importance of management, in “Triumph of the Nerds”.
http://www.pbs.org/nerds/part3.html
Searching down these page for “NTSB” or “JUST” was worth it for me – concise insights that will stick in your head, even if my connection-machine may take overnite these days (g).
Spolsky gets even better just below, at the only occurrence of the word “incentive”.
>> So, this is a common problem. It happens to many w1700 TVs; so many, that a third party actually sells – it even has them in stock – replacement boards. How does Dell fit into this? How do they respond? <<
Within the context of the above insights, this review is more than a wake-up call !
Edited 2007-03-03 13:19
People often quote Dell (etc) as less expensive than Apple.
Am typing this on a 3.5yo Powerbook … last year Apple acknowledged a manufacturing fault and replaced the screen for free. Eighteen months before that the backlight died and it was sorted free of charge.
The Apple route seems to involve an incentive for the company to produce reliable gear. They also seem to understand that their products involve a service (in the way we are used to with the car manufacturers).
You pays your money and takes your choice.
The frustrating part is you could buy more expensive electronics and not necessarily end up with higher quality products. Nor can consumers trust retailers’ sales staff to give honest opinions, or have the experience and training necessary.
Thankfully we have the internet – without online reviews and user forums, consumers would have absolutely no access to product research or buying guides.
I’ve always had good luck with the Dell products I’ve bought: a Pentium III XPS that still runs like new, an Axim PDA that’s been perfect for three years, and a 21″ Trinitron monitor (bought used years ago) that still has one of the best pictures I’ve seen.
But Dell’s deteriorating reputation for customer service and product reliabilty really sours me on purchasing anything else with their name attached.
-Bob
Well, guys, I’m about to send out a mail to Dell’s customer service here in The Netherlands. Let’s see if they also refer me to the LCDPart website.
I hope they surprise me.
I’ve got a 32″ Sceptre out in the garage that was unservicable after less than 6 months, another brand to avoid headed for recycling.
Dude! You bought a Dell!
Dell is really suffering from two discreet but connected issues:
The first is that they don’t seem to realize how absurd their attitude is with regards to customer service. Tom’s example of a forum moderator who works for Dell (probably not even aware of the irony) pointing people to a 3rd party to fix a still current product, is a good one. Another good example is when I call to RMA a part on my own Dell systems, no effort is made to expedite my call when I have clearly articulated the problem with the faulty component (e.g. a failing optical drive). Instead every customer is treated like a first time buyer and walked through the standard litany of questions, which is extremely condescending and largely counterproductive. When you combine these issues, the result is a sense that Dell’s Customer Service Group has become a highly insular and very arrogant organization whose only objectives are to minimize customer service expenses and clear service center calls as quickly as possible.
The second major problem is Dell’s marketing organization is out of sync with their actual product development and delivery. A great example of this is the Dell XPS 700. Now, taken on its own, the XPS 700 is actually a very nice machine. As a mass produced pre-built SLI capable (2x X16) machine it works and performs very well and is highly stable. Now, I bought mine because the specs were right and the price was right, but many bought this machine thinking it was an Alienware or Voodoo style box with completely off the shelf parts and as such would be upgradeable in the same fashion. They also thought they would be getting the same NF590 value-adds that you get with standard ATX Asus (and similar) boards used in an Alienware, Voodoo and Falcon boxes. Why did they think this? Because Dell advertised the machine as being standards based, claiming the motherboard and components were upgradable with standard parts, which was never the case.
Dell took what is a good machine and pretty much destroyed its reputation from day one by using misleading advertising tactics. For me, I couldn’t care less (I think it’s a great machine and never bothered to read the marketing literature) but for many people who were misled into thinking they were getting something they weren’t, it will be the last Dell they ever consider and these are NOT the type of PC consumers a company like Dell wants to lose (e.g. high-margin PC gamers and enthusiasts).
Needless to say, Dell’s response to the criticisms of XPS700 owners, around these points, is truly fascinating as it led to the complete formation of a large Dell forum based community wherein these points are still being discussed after (literally) thousands of posts. If you are interested, I urge you to take a visit over to Dell’s hardware forums and read up on the incredible saga of the XPS 700 discussions (pour yourself a nice drink as it’s a real soap opera). For the most part, Dell customer service shrugged its collective shoulders and continued with business as usual.
Dell still makes some nice machines at good prices and any organization can be excused for the occasional faulty merchandise or flawed product. However, when you combine an inflexible and totally apathetic customer service organization with the types of marketing and sales gaffs illustrated above, it is easy to understand Dell’s fall from grace.
-Mak
Highly insightful info, thanks.
I’m typing this on my #2 Dell, zero problems, and my #1 Dell still works fine too.
But in addition to your insight, I have the vague feeling that the principle has been lost, of “backing off the leading edge to the point of Eternal Reliability”.
That’s what I’ve GOT with everything I ever bought from Dell. I have always thought that must be their underlying strategy – underclock rather than overclock, “eternal reiliability” is a reputation worth investing in, perhaps they are tossing that.
So maybe HP – at a reasonable price, what would be YOUR favorite brand for this. By analogy, on page 110 of “Engineer to Win”, author Carroll Smith elucidates the concept of “Fatigue Limit”:
“the point where the curve approaches the horizontal and is defined as the maximum stress at which the material will withstand an infinite number of completely reversed cycles of stress”
Companies that “Engineer to Win” like that, that’s what-I-want.
Everytime I have called Dell’s customer service it has been a nightmare. Technical support was hard to understand (Indian) and like someone else already mentioned, they take you through each step – even after you tell them you’ve already done everything they’re telling you to do – which is absolutely insane. I had a failed optical drive a while back and they made me make sure Windows was seeing the CD drive, making sure a device appeared in My Computer, and they even told me to reinstall Windows. At first I refused but they said they would not send out a replacement without me doing that first. I sat on the phone for 3 hours doing all of this, when I knew all along the hardware had failed.
Another time my PCMCIA slots weren’t working correctly with a Linksys wireless card. I called Linksys who referred me to Dell, and Dell would refer me back to Linksys (or just hang up on me). Finally, Linksys decided to help me, since Dell wouldn’t and Linksys was able to dig up an update for the PCMCIA drivers that fixed my issue. Thanks a lot Dell. 4 hours with 6 hang ups for nothing but the other company helping me.
Our latest Dell, a Dell Inspiron 5160 was a great laptop I have to say, for the price. It was around $1100 two and a half years ago, it weighed as much as a bag of bricks, and was as thick as one too. The power jack finally broke the solder joints on the motherboard. Looking online, this is a common issue with the 5150 and 5160 series (maybe as well as others). My local PC shops also confirmed this issue as being common and usually having a couple in each day to get it fixed.
Dell’s products seem to be ok (minus Windows), but its their customer service that made me buy an Apple instead of another Dell. Apple has always been quick and flexible to fix any issues I have had. It’s not a computer/laptop, but when the HD died in my iPod, I had a new iPod on my door in 2 days. No questions asked by customer support either. I told them I ran the internal diagnostics which failed and they listened to me. They didn’t force me to try some software updates or restore my iPod after I told them what I had done.
If Dell stepped up the customer service, I don’t believe people would think “Oh, just another “cheap” and “disposible” Dell”.
>> I had a failed optical drive a while back and they made me make sure Windows was seeing the CD drive, making sure a device appeared in My Computer, and they even told me to reinstall Windows. At first I refused but they said they would not send out a replacement without me doing that first. I sat on the phone for 3 hours doing all of this, when I knew all along the hardware had failed. <<
I have to say this has now crossed the line into last-straw territory.
I don’t value my time that highly, but I have a LOT of stuff installed – Visual Studio for one thing takes a while to load. In your position, I would have eaten the cost of the drive rather than reinstall windows, an unimaginable scenario without your deposition.
Thanks very much, I WILL look around before buying next time !
I know this is a bit of a segue but this kind of thing is also at least part of the reason why Windows has a reputation for unreliability. I’m always surprised when I hear people say that they get bluescreens in XP all the time because I never do — but then I always build my own machines with premium parts. When I ask them what computers they are using they are always pre-manufactured, from Dell or some other vendor. My strong suspicion is that many of these companies skimp on the quality of important parts like RAM and power supply units. From their point of view it’s worth it: Total failures will be rare and occasional instability will get blamed on Microsoft, not on them.
I’m not supporting Microsoft here, I’m as critical of them as anyone, but in my own experience XP at least is actually a lot more reliable than it is reputed to be, provided you run it on reliable hardware.