Loyal OSNews readers, I ‘d like to thank you for your patience as we’ve made a bumpy transition to a new back-end and an even bumpier rollout of the OSNews’ new design, aka OSNews 4.1. We hope you like it. We’ll be making many minor interface changes over the next weeks, and we’ll read the comments of this posting in case you have any bug reports or suggestions. One feature that we’ve eliminated from the v4 beta was themes. For now, we are focusing on perfecting one unified theme, and hope to revisit that feature in the future. I’d like to thank OSNews’ intrepid code slinger Adam Scheinberg for all his hard work on this project and also thank the many readers who helped us troubleshoot the v4 backend.
You guys did a great job!
I like the new look. White space is a bit distracting on large screens but I tend to keep my browser window smallish so that doesn’t tend to be too bad.
Well the logo is still ugly, but better, and the bubble things at the top (like KDE has) are ugly too, IMHO. It is nicer to look at though. I like the gray.
*Edit*
Bring back themes please. 🙂
Edited 2008-01-30 00:33 UTC
/me hugs the new design. I love it!
One thing though… Why was it code-named brittny…?
Name of one of the designers that worked on it. It wasn’t a code name, but rather a workspace we made for her.
But I don’t like it.
How do I get the old design back? There’s no option in the preferences…
Edited 2008-01-30 00:37 UTC
I agree. I think it looks horrible. I really dislike this design change.
Are you going to say its ugly, or are you going to provide some constructive criticism?
This site’s comment system isn’t about constructive criticism. Having said that, there’s an implication that my ‘constructive criticism’ is to have the old design back.
Actually, your comment just expresses a dislike for this design change. It doesn’t compare or contrast what you liked or disliked about the prior design and whether you even liked the prior design.
In short, it wasn’t a constructive criticism. It was just a short rant.
I disagree. I said I don’t like the new design. There’s an implication that I liked the old design. Just because I don’t break it down element by element, doesn’t make it a rant. It’s still constructive. The old design to me was better.
The new look is nice .. not that there was anything wrong with the old look though.
I miss the feature of looking at message and having all replies to it available.
That’s back as of today too. Click on the title of any post.
That’s nice of course, but I still miss being able to see at a glance whether any posts (particularly egregiously false ones) already have any replies. Then coming back later whether there are any more.
The current way has all the functionality of course, just that one has to click something now, then press back when done in order to check another post. Basically it would be nice to see the number of replies a post has before clicking on the title.
Too much contrast between the large white background area and everything else. Kills the eyeballs.
Meanwhile the story blocks are undifferentiated from each other, and the x comments text contrasts too little with the white background.
Gray header, white background, puke green side headers, and orange user header at the top. Strange and incongruent color choices to say the least.
(Already fixed) Black text on dark gray comment headers in the comment section -> little contrast between the two. The black text on dark gray comment header is not consistent with the main site header where it is white / light gray text on dark gray background.
Self-comments have drastically different header text color than other comments, which weirds me out a bit.
No search button by the search dialog on the front page; it is a worthwhile convention and there is ample room for it.
The My Account button has mouseover dead space at the top and bottom of it. This is inconsistent with the menu it provides, in which all implied button area provides clickable action.
Edited 2008-01-30 00:51 UTC
I definitely prefer this to the original version 4 look. But I still prefer version 3 to this. I think that I *could* get to like this as well or better. But the main thing bothering me is that it still looks so *bright*. All that white background is harder on the eyes.
I think a slightly gray background (similar to the old site but maybe a bit lighter) will be coming back
Yes, please… Try to be nice on everybody’s eyes and change the white background to some light-mid-gray (and make sure that comment’s font color is black).
Well done. One thing I’m not particularly fond of is the Featured box. I see from the Conversations that I’m not alone. With the Recent Original Stories on the right, I don’t think the big box is needed.
Also, the logo is fine, but it might be fun to have a contest to see what people can come up with.
My Account > Preferences > Hide Featured Box
Does not work, at least for my account. I select “Hide Feature Box”, click “Save Preferences” and the preference page reloads – with the Feature Box option helpfully reset to “Show Feature Box.”
Mmm, I just tested it and it works fine for me. I’m sure Adam’ll look into it today.
The green background of the headlines on the right side looks a little off with the rest of the page using greyish colors…
That’s my quick first impression.
Otherwise I like it.
With the old design, I used to be able to look at someone’s comment and see if anyone has replied to it. Does this feature not exist in the new design, or am I just blind ?
EDIT: It’s nice that you can click on the link title of a comment and read the replies, but is there no longer a way to tell at a glance whether there are any replies to a particular comment, as there used to be?
Edited 2008-01-30 00:51 UTC
That hasn’t existed since v3. Now the default view is threaded.
Yeah I know that
I just never bothered to comment on it until I saw this article about the new layout. I hope that feature comes back. As another poster said, it’s just cool to be able to tell *at a glance* whether or not a particular comment has replies.
BTW: I noticed that when I go to ‘comments’ under My Account, that feature is there, so obviously the infrastructure for this already exists.
Edited 2008-01-30 19:11 UTC
Hey I applaud the effort, but there are some usability issues. The gray left-to-right gradients make text difficult to read. True it’s most noticeable under the timestamp (not vital), but if you make that unreadable, why have that at all?
Whoa the timestamp went from black text to gray… that’s fast service.
Edited 2008-01-30 00:52 UTC
I just noticed the timestamps are always UTC even though I have it set to CST.
Please decrease the gradients, and push the user box a few pixels down.
Other than that, the new look is very nice. Good work!
Great job. FWIW, I like the logo
This is really ugly.
New stories in a 2/3 column, below a huge banner with ads.
To right in a column are boxes, Lots of them. Distracting.
I am not a huge fan of this design. Take something simple and utterly butcher it. Yuck.
Um…This top menu bar is wrapped on my WIDESCREEN monitor. Why do people design sites like this? I use FF; didn’t anyone check this in FF before going to production? Sheesh.
Nope, I don’t like it… but it’s not my site anyway
.
The contrast is too strong for me… maybe a light gray instead of white for the main background would help.
I don’t come here for the design anyway, so whatever you guys like is fine. Even green on a magenta background wouldn’t stop me from… Ok, maybe green on magenta would stop me
.
…looks really stupid when you run an ad blocker.
You can add the ad background image to the filter list. There empty space looks better but I wish I could move “Logged in as…” box higher.
Anyway, I like the new look a lot. I miss “Lefty” theme though.
I love the new look and what I especially like is that you didn’t so drastically change the layout that I have to relearn everything. I hate when web sites do that!
On balance, this is a good design. I like the look of the site, and the modularity of it. I like that I can change things to suit my taste. I like the way the new mechanism to mod comments works (the + & – disappear once you’ve made your mod).
v4 made me kind of sick. It is too “web-2.0”-ish. I mainly only read OSNews through a feed reader now. It just seems too heavyweight and javascript filled.
This is a HUGE improvement over v4.0, but still isn’t that great. Personal opinion only.
Meh. When we were on v3, I got email every week from people complaining that moderation required another page load and that the site wasn’t valid and that the site used weird HTML. Now we move to valid XHTML and Javascript and people complain.
You can’t make everyone happy. We really do hate to lose you, I know you participated quite a bit, but alas… no matter what we do, there’s always a vocal group who hates it. That’s what happens when you have a website with lots of readers.
Nice attitude. I saw a lot of constructive criticism that maybe, maybe might improve your site.
No attitude. I’m just telling you the facts.
Well remember when I emailed David and asked if the big “advertisement” showing the featured article could be removed since I was a subscriber? Your compromise was to set a cookie that removed it for 4 days if memory serves. Since v4 went live, that is not possible. In the dropdown where we can choose things, why can’t you add a “blank” option? That is what drives me NUTS.
Thanks Adam, I know you truly care.
I like this theme. The only problem that I see is the tight spacing of the top menu items; you may want to find a way to space them out a bit more.
I’m using a 22″ LCD, and the spacing of everything seems so tight in the middle of my screen it’s ugly. And that white background is hard on the eyes.
Sorry to say, I liked more the old way.
Check out neowin.net or anandtech.com or some other site that are able to use all the space. The flow and presentation is just better.
Got to agree, the white is hard on the eyes !! The rest i dont mind though !
Could you please bring back the ‘Replies’ link at the bottom of comments.
I liked being able to isolate a subset of comments away from the rest.
Also, please disable the ‘post comment’ link when a user is not logged on. I have now accidentally clicked this a couple of times when not logged on, typed a huge comment and then clicked submit. It informs you that you can’t post anonymously, and wipes your comment. Very annoying.
Other than these gripes though, the site is definitely improved.
I had finally got used to version 4.0. I guess I will get used to this, but first impression is I like the 4.0 look much better.
My only concrete criticism is the white background is too bright and is hard on the eyes, makes reading difficult to read. As has been the case for many versions, the text size is too small.
I love the new look. It is more generic (read less distinct and unique) than v3, but oh well, it looks really good.
When the last changed happened the only thing that kept me sane was the fact that I could switch to the not quite horrible classic theme. Now… this.
Quality had gone down anyway, but now I can’t even read the damn thing.
Goodbye, osnews.
To be honest I hated v4.0 (though it didn’t stop me from browsing) so I’m greatly pleased to see this update.
God job guys.
better than that greenish theme
Congrats for the new theme. To be honest, I never liked the previous one and I kept using osnews classic until it was removed a few weeks ago.
Anyway, I have a single suggestion: would it be possible to disable the sidebar completely? If not, at least reduce its width.
Thanks!
1: The extreme-left justification makes me want to violate Godwin’s law. Make an option to put the sidebar on the left like normal people, or at least tab the left area in a little.
2: WTF fixed width. I use 1024x [strikethrough]at work[/strikethrough] sometimes (there is a good reason for this), and always have to resize my browser window to fit the page. This new version is much wider than 1024, making it now impossible to get rid of the bottom scroll bar.
3: The last version looked better, and the version before that was actually aesthetically pleasing.
4: The ‘latest comic’ thing is well-implemented, but the page it links to could use a forward/back browser.
5: Something that’s bothering me for a while is that some things don’t work the way one expects them to.
The first example of this is low-rated comments – they start shaded, and you can unroll them by clicking the titles. So clicking again should re-shade them — which isn’t really useful functionality, but makes sense. Instead, it takes you to (I think) a permalink page.
The second is, on a reply post, clicking the name of the post to which is is replying. It takes you to that post’s permalink page, when one would expect it to take me to that post in the normal comment view. This is much faster when the posts are on the same page and allows you to continue browsing normally.
EDIT: This has been changed recently so that it now links to a page containing the conversation thread. This is better, but I perfer my way — it would still allow one to navigate backward through a conversation, using the reply to links, and forward again with the forward button.
Basicly these are unrequested context switches (there is a usability term to describe this, but I don’t know what it is), and are to be avoided. Permalinks should be accessed via a link that includes the work ‘permalink’.
EDIT: 6: Yeah, the gray-on-white comment text is literally painful.
Edited 2008-01-30 02:56 UTC
I mean, I used www4 for so long just because we were told it’s how the site was going to be controlled; and now not even a month after being ‘official’, I have to go relearn positions for accessing all the controls?
And you’re still using fixed-width columns? @_@ T_T
Over all, the new look is ok. However, I have the following objections:
1. There is a big grey empty box at the top. It is distracting and look odd.
2. I think this is a theme issue, but the text is crowding the left had side of the browser. It really should have some sort of left hand margin.
The margin issue really bugs me. I can deal with the empty grey box, but I really would like to see perhaps a 1m or a 2m margin on the left hand side. Otherwise it looks pretty good.
Big empty box? Are you using adblock? If so, that’s your right, but we really shouldn’t have to accommodate you in that case.
I try very hard to do non-intrusive and relevant advertising precisely so people won’t be forced to adblock. I have adblock installed too, but I only enable it site by site to punish sites that attack me with aggressive ads.
I use Adblock and and Filterset.G in Firefox and by default it blocks ads also on OSNews.
So when I for some reason reinstall Firefox from the ground up, like when I reinstalled my work-machine recently, Firefox will adblock ads also on OSNews. Then I turn it of, since the ads are not of the disturbing kind.
This morning I turned off adblock on OSNews as I used to, but I soon turned it on again. The OSNews staff have been quite clever in not showing ads that move around to much. I like that, since I hate those moving ads that draws attension from the things one wants to read.
Well, they don’t anymore. Now there was an ad with a lightning and text that pop up, just to draw attension. Should not be there if you ask me.
I’ve been noticing the tendency for a while, but it’s getting worse.
Ah, well, I’ve always got Adblock!
But it’s a pitty really, isn’t it?
Sorry for any bad spelling – I’ve just reinstalled and haven’t had time to install English language pack for spell checking yet.
Nalle Berg
./nalle.
Out of curiosity, do ads actually pay for views any more, or just clicks?
I don’t mind ads as long as they’re low-key – such as google ads – and/or well made, such as the MS SQL server ad I see in the right pane and an ad for a service called “Free Report” banner at top. Any sort of flash, animated GIF, etc. and I won’t feel even slightly guilty about adblocking.
Of course, it helps a lot if you don’t use flash and disable GIF animation – sites seem to detect your brower capabilities, and serve ads accordingly.
All of the banner ads we run pay by the view. The google ads pay by the click.
I don’t allow ads that have flashing or vibrating images or anything like that, so if you ever see one, please let me know immediately, and I’ll have it banned. I try really hard to respect the readers, so they won’t feel the need to use Adblock.
Yes I do use adblock. With adblock turned on, it isn’t obvious that the space is used for ads. My apologies regarding the empty box.
I can’t for the life of me seem to find links to the various administration pages.
…seriously, what’s going on? Where did user administration go?
It’s there. But you need Javascript enabled to see it, as it’s now a popup window.
you can’t see the comments link! white-on-light-green is not the easiest to read, but the reverse is nearly invisible. Otherwise, this new design is quite pleasing.
what was wrong with the original theme?
it was:
* clean
* very easy on the eye
* not confusing
* easy to navigate, logical structure
* sufficiently functional
* had no adverts in between posts and entries
I absolutely love the new theme. I didn’t like the v4.0 version very much, but you’re really turned that into something nice. I love everything about it… the matte colors… the color choices… It’s really nice.
I would change only this: the stories that don’t have a grey background, make them a different color from the page background. Otherwise the bar which is the separator (which I like, thanks for adding it) looks like it’s just floating in space rather than acting as a bounds for the story.
Great design! Thanks for the hard work!
What the f**k is this? It’s ugly.. and why was the option of using the classic theme removed?
You’re pissing us off OSNews adminstrators… cease and decist.
(Or post your complete mailing addresses…)
I’m kind of torn, there are elements I like about this new look but it doesn’t seem quite as clean as either the old look or the less-old look (v4). I can certainly live with it, and since I hit this site every day, I’m simply happy to have variety…
However, two gripes that are purely subjective and stylistic.
a) Layout: The menu bar should not be wrapping, and the “Submit News”, RSS, and top of the right-side layout boxes are all at varying heights. It just looks very frontpage-ish. Though I’m using Konqueror as my browser, so it could be I’m not rendering properly, though I’d be surprised. OSNews is one of the sites that seems to be the most accomodating for browsers be they desktop or mobile.
b) The “banner” bar at the top. The site is centered in the browser, which is nice and clean, but the gray “header” bar (for lack of a better word) containing the logo, menu bar etc. stretches across the width of the browser. It should be one way or the other. If you’re going to center the page, then don’t extend the banner across, it just doesn’t look right, though that could also be a result of the contrast between the gray and the white. I seem to recall v4 had less of a contrast.
Anyways, I’ll tip my hat and applaud the effort that went into redesigning the site. I know it’s not an easy thing and you’re certainly not going to please everyone.
Just offering my two pennies…
Some good changes but some awful ones too. I hate having the bar on the right, is there any way to change it to the left side? The menubar (Home Originals, Conversations, etc.)at the top doesn’t fit on one line in epiphany and using midori the login text boxes overlap with the element above. I do like the theme better than the last one though and the functional changes that have been made to the comment system since the switch from V3 have been excellent also.
Edited 2008-01-30 04:45 UTC
The new look is great. I like it much better than the themes of yore.
This comment about the right side wanting it back on the left is ergonomically retarded.
Having the right column be closest to the scrollbar makes sense.
Site is definitely much improved. You could work on a theme view where one can change the colors and perhaps the background colors between the two columns to offset them [make it easier for people contrast sensitive], but it’s definitely an improved presentation.
I don’t mind the overall theme, but have two suggestions:
1) The text in the main stories is hard to read. “Loyal OSNews readers, I’d like to thank you for your patience as we’ve made a bumpy transition to a new back-end and an even bumpier rollout…” I need glasses to read that on the main page. The problem is either the font color and the bright white background and/or the font size.
2) I liked the old logo better.
I really prefer the old style (3.0) the news were easier to read and, honestly the design was better for me. ;-P
This new design makes things floating around without some frame that help the eyes. It seems it’s missing some CSS part.
As other guy asked:
“How do I get the old design back? There’s no option in the preferences…”
Much better than the previous one(s)
Not bad: simple, consistent and stylish. The dark grey chosen may look a bit too heavy, dull and gloomy as it is now? Maybe it could be a bit lighter and/or not so heavy dark grey only? But even it is rather ok and has a certain techie feeling to it which suits OSnews fine.
I like the new logo
Yay… The laughably out of date pricegrabber is finally gone!
No more looking at prices for “cutting edge” technology such as the iPod Mini, Pentium 4 and GeForce 6600 GT!
What I would like to know though, is why on earth did that thing last so long?
Laziness.
Most of these seem to have been covered, but just in case:
a) The high contract grey & white design is hard on my eyes. The orange and green thrown in are hard on my stomach.
b) I’m using 1024×768 and the navigation bar at the top of the page has wrapped, so “Contact” has dropped off down below the rest.
c) The main column is not wide enough and the right hand column is far, far too wide.
d) Right-sided navigation just upsets me. I liked the themes option in V4.0: at least I could go back to a sane layout with the navigation on the left!
I wasn’t a huge fan of v4.0, but I could at least get it into some sort of usable shape. V4.1 seems to be a step backwards. Sorry Adam.
I didn’t design the site, I just implemented it. But you should know, we ALWAYS respond to feedback and incorporate it, so the next few are likely to see several changes.
It probably has been reported before, but I haven’t read the thread. If you increase the font size (which I need to do, default font size is too small on 1280×1024) the page breaks.
that particular green is my favourite color at all and i also like the dark background at the top, it kinda remembers me the front page of the first ever design of osnews
http://web.archive.org/web/19980625180147/http://www.osnews.com/
I’m really glad OSNews is run for our free viewing pleasure. I think Thom and the other staff have done well in building up the community. But I must say, I far preferred v4.0 rather than this one or the old one.
Seeing the ugly immediate theme replaced by some much prettier theme, was some really sweet surprise. Thanks alot!
As many already pointed out, the biggest flaw that I see with this theme is that it contrasts way too much with all that white on the background. It definitely would benefit of having a light gray background or something along these lines.
And maybe a border or frame around the comments would improve readability a little bit. Oh! And make that right hand column thinner. Right now it takes way too much screen state…
Other than that, I like it and think that this is definitely an improvement over the v4.0 theme. If you address these issues I think that you will have a keeper.
But honestly, I very much liked the old theme. It’s one of my all-time favorites.
Overall I like it, however, I really do prefer having the sidebar on the left-hand side. The v4 let me set an option to do this, and that seemed to have gotten removed for v4.1. I’d very much appreciate it if you at least enabled that option again.
Otherwise, I don’t really have any issue – though the white is a bit hard on the eyes as another reader said.
Overall – good job.
Love the new look but how come for as long as i can remember OSnews never rendered correctly for me. all the information is in the middle of the screen while the left and right edges never have content. Its like viewing a movie on an HDTV thats not in widescreen. I can’t switch to 1024 res on a laptop or its ugly as sin but 1024 is all that works on my desktop machine.
I really think this design needs to be tested better. This site lacks the flexibility of balancing content and space in regards to the size of the monitor(window). I don’t see any response to the complaints of the way the site behaves with a wide-screen or a larger font. These are real issues.
I like todays (4.1) version more than yesterdays 4.0. It is almost readable – I mean I can read comments without seeing their “captions”. Honestly said, I couldn’t read single conversation since switching to 4.0 version
If possible, could you experiment with Reply/Permalink/Bookmark/Score row text colors? Set it to some lighter (and/or greenish) shade of gray – currently it somewhat interferes with comment content flow.
Just two words: liquid layout.
I’m one of a few web users left that resize their browser to be in portrait mode, not full screen landscape mode.
This site doesn’t even try to accommodate to different window sizes…
M.
ps. but really…there’s nothing that can’t be fixed with a few css tricks. Firefox + Stylish plugin +
@-moz-document domain(“osnews.com”) {
#header, #side, #footer { display: none !important; }
#main { width: 100% !important ; }
#content { width: 90% !important; margin: auto !important; }
#commenttopbar, .comment_title { background-image: none !important; background-color: #444 !important; }
}
and I’m happy until I need to enter login again (but then I can temporarily disable Stylish
).
I prefer the simplicity and clean design of the previous design.
I agree. A day later and I’m a bit repulsed!
This looks pretty good, more professional, too. I think Thom will have to wear a tie from now on. 😉
For me this is quite simple:
The previous design was unique and had style. It looked a tad retro and fitted nicely with the “OS” spirit. It also looked very videogame-ish in my opinion, which was very cool.
This new design is just another run-of-the-mill boring look that lost all its personality.
But then again, these days people don’t even know why they want to change things anymore… It’s like there is a constant need for change, all under the umbrella of “evolution”…
When is it going to stop?
I still like my beer the way it was made 100 year ago…
I don’t like the new design either. It’s boring, uninspired, and everything seems to just run together.
Also, fixed width layouts are evil.
Try being an editor or a publisher for a while, than come back and see if you still spout the same nonsense.
As an editor, I NEED a fixed width content column, or else I have no idea how my articles, text, and images are going to look. Having a fixed width in pixels allows me to properly format articles, and that’s why articles on OSNews look good, while on many other websites, they look like ass.
> Try being an editor or a publisher for a while,
> than come back and see if you still spout the
> same nonsense.
I have been an editor and Web publisher for 14 years, thank you very much.
And no, you DO NOT NEED fixed width content columns to write decent Web pages. If you think you do, you need to find a new field of work that does not involve publishing online Web content.
Now, try telling it to the guy looking at OSNews on a palmtop computer, or the OLPC who has to horizontal scroll because your site requires a minimum width of 1024 pixels. Nothing will stop a user from coming back to your site faster than forcing them to horizontal scroll.
Like I said, I’ve been writing Web content and doing Web page design for 14 years. Don’t tell you NEED fixed width pages. You don’t. Claiming that you do need fixed with is nonsense. And the trend of people thinking you do is just because good Web site design has become a lost art.
Hint: Making assumptions about the capability of the browser or hardware that your user has is BAD.
Also, OsNews fails accessibility testing because of bad design.
Edited 2008-01-31 13:57 UTC
We have better mobile support than ANY other website out there. People looking at OSN on a PDA don’t get the normal version, but a proper mobile version. If there is ONE website out there that scales well beyond normal computers, it’s OSNews.
OSNews makes heavy use of images in articles, and regularly, I make them at full width (max. 600pix). I need to be sure that whatever a user does, that fixed width content column looks the same to prevent the image in the content area from overlapping with other parts of the website, or images dropping onto the next row, resulting in a document that does NOT look like how I intended them to look. Additionally, I NEED at least 600pix in width for keeping images readable. And no, making thumbnails is not the answer. Making a thumbnail for a schematic of some sort is just utter bogus, and only requires more clicks.
Additionally, paragraphs consist of a certain amount of rows, and when I press the preview button in the backend, I want to see EXACTLY how it appears on the frontpage.
Publishing an article requires more than just text in 2008.
Ah, the infamous accessibility remark, without anything to back it up.
On OLPC you for example, you won’t get the PDA version. You will get the normal version. and with color, it will require horizontal scrolling.
Your document doesn’t look like you intended to do no matter what you to do it. Thats the problem with your school of thought when it comes to Web design. Nothing you as a designer can do will make sure your document looks like you want it to look when I view it. OSNews proves that already. The site does not look the same in Firefox as it does in IE. And some of is badly broken in IE. For example the search dialog overlaps the login box.
Again, you CAN’T. Period. You simply can’t. What if I have vision problems and have overridden your font settings to have huge fonts? The paragraph as I see it is going to take up a lot more rows than you intended.
I was publishing articles with images in 1995. And I did not need to use fixed width. I still don’t.
You can easily find accessibility testers on Google (like Web lint that validates HTML, except these validate acessibility). Go ahead and run it through some. It fails the tests.
Tell me, Thom. Are you still *forcing* the PDA version of the web site even on PDA users with a high=res screen and proper web browser?
I’m not at home, so I can’t check on my Nokia 770 myself, but that type of practice was SOP in the past here, and it’s about as user-UNfriendly as a web site can get.
Comments?