Apple is starting to promote its public beta of X11 for OS X: “X11 for Mac OS X offers a complete X Window System implementation for running X11-based applications on Mac OS X. Based on the de facto-standard for X11, the open source XFree86 project, X11 for Mac OS X is compatible, fast and fully integrated with Mac OS X . . . Native Aqua and X11 applications run side by side on the Mac OS X desktop. You can cut and paste between X11 and Aqua windows.“
Well there goes most of my reasons for wanting Linux on my Mac, although I’m certain there are many apps that won’t run that I want.
Ummm… isn’t the defacto standard from MIT Athena or something? (I haven’t followed X11 implementations for an awfully long time)
It’s well known that running X11 on top of OS X has been possible for some time, but a simple installer, vendor support, and graphics acceleration has got me pumped about this. Jbett you should be able to run just about any X11 app you might want. Both KDE and Gnome will work on OS X. Check out the Fink project for more details. They have a new FAQ on the Apple X11 beta.
http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/x11/inst-xfree86.php#apple-binary
http://fink.sourceforge.net/pdb/section.php/gnome
http://fink.sourceforge.net/pdb/section.php/kde
Now if they would only release the x86 port of OSX we could all enjoy in the goodness. Until then……Linux it is.
I hear there have been rumors, but I don’t think it would be a smart move for Apple… remember, no matter how much emphasis is being placed on OS X and all it’s unixie goodness, Apple is a hardware company. For me, OS X was the primary reason for making the switch, and if I could install it on my cheap x86 hardware, I would’ve! But since I need apple hardware to run it, I bought the Apple hardware… Unless Apple suddenly decides that it’ll no longer be a hardware company, and that it can make the same $$$ in software, we’re not going to see OS X on the x86.
And hooray for apple’s X11! With GTK in alpha for OSX, pretty soon it may not even be necessary to use X11 to run our favorite linux apps — but it’s great to know that Apple is putting the effort into compatibility with other platforms.
The ever useful Dictionary.com should shed some light on your misunderstanding:
de facto:
…
2. Exercising power or serving a function without being legally or officially established: a de facto government; a de facto nuclear storage facility.
So, yes, XFree86 is the de facto standard.
Dream on, kid, ain’t gonna happen.
an x86 version still wont get me to use that stuff. Unless it comes free, and open source.
tho i can live without the latter.
And people complain about BeOS people bringing up a subject every thread
.
Anyways, there is a small amount of noticeable lag when you drag X11 app windows. Although it runs I’d say 90% as well on an actual Linux box. Gimp runs excellent, looks like I won’t be purchasing Photoshop anytime soon
.
I’m not an X expert (ha!), so forgive my ignorance.
The Apple website mentions this implementation is based on XFree86, but it also says that it includes the full X11R6.6 technology. I thought XFree86 was X11R6.3. Does anyone know the difference between 6.3 and 6.6 and if XFree86 would benefit from having Apple’s changes merged?
Xfree 3.x is X11R6.3, Xfree 4.x is X11R6.4 IIRC.
I had no clue there was a revision 6 to X11R6 though??
4.2 is X11R6.6 see: http://www.xfree86.org/4.2.0/RELNOTES2.html
The most impressive thing about this is its speed. X is much more responsive than in Debian Linux on the same machine (even with DRI support) and way ahead of my PC with Savage4 graphics chipset. And all that was achieved under another OS with its own graphics requirements.
I can’t be 100% on this but people who know X11 much better than myself found some nextstep postscript goodies in this install. Maybe that answers the question why is this so good.
The version of GTK that was ported is very old now, no new apps use it and most apps are being ported, so you’ll need the X11 support for some time yet.
Apple haven’t altered XFree to any great extent, and even if they did it’s unlikely they’d give back any changes as X11 is not GPLd, and the changes would be mac specific anyway.
I wish people would stop going all gooey over MacOS. It’s not that great, I found it pretty irritating to use anyway.
Guess it just shows that a lot of people interested in open source were just after free loot, and weren’t interested in the real motivations behind it at all. A shame.
Mac users can run *nix applications on OS X, but us Linux users can not run mac appplications on ar PCS. THAT SUCCCKKKKKKS!!
” I wish people would stop going all gooey over MacOS. It’s not that great, I found it pretty irritating to use anyway.”
It never ceases to amaze me how some people can be underwhelmed by obviously the best user experience on the planet.
What are you comparing it to?
“Unless Apple suddenly decides that it’ll no longer be a hardware company, and that it can make the same $$$ in software, we’re not going to see OS X on the x86.”
If Apple wants money from me, they’ll have to make their products compatible with the hardware I already own. Otherwise screw ’em. Let’s see just how low their market share can dip! They can squeeze me for $100 by releasing OSX for Intel, or they get nothin’.
Hey, I’m all for an OS X port to the PC.
But if anybody ever thinks that Apple is going to release a no strings attached port to the x86 platform, there’s a word describing you in the dictionary: deluded.
Apple is a Hardware company with some cracktacular software.
If they ever release an x86 port of their OS, they’ll make damn good and sure it will only work on a computer equipped with an Apple motherboard.
And, to keep the best possible user experience, doubtless they will only work as partners with a handful of hardware vendors, who will have little to no interest in writing legacy OS X drivers for all that PC hardware you’ve got floating about. They don’t make money off of that. They will want you to buy a completely new set of goodies that play nice with the PC version of OSX.
You’ve deluded yourself if you think it will be a cheap and painless transition. You’ll have to buy an Apple Branded PC and a boatload of new periferals.
You might as well bite the bullet now and shell out for one of their really solid bang-for the buck laptops, and if you don’t become a Mac Addict, you can un-load it on Ebay for some solid money. (Pismo G3 500 notebooks still go for as much as $1300 on eBay. Clamshell iBooks also still sell in the $1000 range.)
By fluffy bunny
an x86 version still wont get me to use that stuff. Unless it comes free, and open source.
tho i can live without the latter.
That’s the best part about principles, they’re so easily cast aside when they become inconvenient.
By Mike Hearn
Apple haven’t altered XFree to any great extent, and even if they did it’s unlikely they’d give back any changes as X11 is not GPLd, and the changes would be mac specific anyway.
You never know. Apple has given back a lot of stuff that wasn’t mandated because of the GPL. It’s really an issue of whether the changes open up any technology that they don’t necessarily want open yet.
Guess it just shows that a lot of people interested in open source were just after free loot, and weren’t interested in the real motivations behind it at all. A shame.
What, you mean like Fluffy Bunny?
By Bobthearch
If Apple wants money from me, they’ll have to make their products compatible with the hardware I already own. Otherwise screw ’em. Let’s see just how low their market share can dip! They can squeeze me for $100 by releasing OSX for Intel, or they get nothin’
Well, gee Bob, ya know it looks to me that Apple doesn’t want money from you. I really think they can give a rip about anyone who wants to cobble together their machine from bits and pieces collected from hither and yon.
Their most popular machines are the ones that have very few User Servicable Parts inside (iMacs, eMacs, and notebooks). It’s also why their machine are so feature complete, so that there is little need for someone to go out and cobble bits and pieces together to make their own uber franken computer.
And ya know what? While all of the x86 nostalgic hardware yahoos whine and bitch and moan that Apple “ain’t getting a dime of my change until…”, I don’t think Apple is saying “How come nobody from the dime store swap meet crowd want our machines?”. YOU are not in their demographic. YOU are not missed on the bottom line. YOU are not a profit center of any kind to Apple.
There are a heck of a lot more folks who have discovered after years of neglect that their is a computer company more interested in the overall computer experience, in better enabling their hardware and software to more seemlessly fit into the Stuff We Do Anyway. These are the folks that buy Accords, Volvos, Saturns and Kias, not the folks that buy Camaros and Mustangs.
So, basically, Bob, you’re not relevant to Apple. They don’t care about you. They are content in this stance, and in their marketing, and they don’t miss you. What’s funny is that somehow this seems to bother you.
Their most popular machines are the ones that have very few User Servicable Parts inside (iMacs, eMacs, and notebooks). It’s also why their machine are so feature complete, so that there is little need for someone to go out and cobble bits and pieces together to make their own uber franken computer.
>>Not feature complete, but a feature Locked. Apple want you to buy new mac every year.
And ya know what? While all of the x86 nostalgic hardware yahoos whine and bitch and moan that Apple “ain’t getting a dime of my change until…”, I don’t think Apple is saying “How come nobody from the dime store swap meet crowd want our machines?”. YOU are not in their demographic. YOU are not missed on the bottom line. YOU are not a profit center of any kind to Apple.
>>Yes, only if you stupid but rich, are worthy of apple’s.
There are a heck of a lot more folks who have discovered after years of neglect that their is a computer company more interested in the overall computer experience, in better enabling their hardware and software to more seemlessly fit into the Stuff We Do Anyway. These are the folks that buy Accords, Volvos, Saturns and Kias, not the folks that buy Camaros and Mustangs.
>>KIA’s ?? YUCK!!
Will,
nice post – made me chuckle 🙂
“cobble together their machine from bits and pieces collected from hither and yon.” and “dime store swap meet crowd”
While humerous, that doesn’t really describe me, my hardware, or that of many others’. I have never built my own, and last time I bought a very nice Dell.
“…folks that buy Accords, Volvos, Saturns and Kias, not the folks that buy Camaros and Mustangs.”
You mean Apple only wants to sell cars to sissies? Show me a Kia or Saturn that’s faster and better built than a Mustang!
I have Lincoln Mark VIII myself, 280 hp, v8, leather, moonroof, with dual overhead cams… *That’s* what kind of computer I want, comfortable, powerful, and competetively priced. It’s not about paying more, it’s about getting more in exchange for paying more.
Many people have used this as an arguement, “Apple is a Hardware company.” If they want to be a *successful* hardware company and reverse their market-share trends, they need to be a lot more competitive with other hardware companies. The take-it-or-leave-it attitude of Apple is what got them to this point, with businesses ignoring them, a few dedicated customers sticking around, and average consumers flinching from sticker shock.
Best Wishes,
Bob
Seriously, why have a license that allows people to take advantage of you!
“Not feature complete, but a feature Locked. Apple want you to buy new mac every year”
I guess Apple won’t be getting much money from me either. My PowerMac just passed the three year mark a few days ago. My first Mac lasted me six years before I replaced it with the one I have now.
Yes, feature locked to some degree. The only upgrade I wish I could do, that I can’t, are having faster bus speeds and the use of DDR instead of PC100. Oh well. It’s still chugging.
Has anyone actually used this yet, or are we all here to bash Apple?
I take it that you also think people releasing SW as PD are buggers and idiots?
GPL isnät the be all, end all of licenses and not all people share the views of RMS and GNU to 100%…
Actually, no. XFree86 is the most used X11 implementation (whose second is quite distant) and a honorary member of the X Consortium.
Besides, on those thinking this is nothing different that other open source implementations… Actually no. Take for example copy and paste (clipboard). The last I tried with XDarwin (or whatever it is called today), it can’t be done.
Besides, the installation I presume is much more easier.
Don : It never ceases to amaze me how some people can be underwhelmed by obviously the best user experience on the planet.
OS X? Best? OS 9 impressed me more than OS X ever did with its UI. Just deserves a clean-up here and there and its fine! And BeOS? Again, I had a better experience, UI-wise than OS X. Or NeXT, while I never actually used the real version, but its clones tell me it is pretty good, again UI wise.
OS X is a bad mishmash of Platinum and NeXT, plus a load of unwanted mandatory (without 3rd-party utilities) eye candy.
Besides, as for best experience on the planet, I beg to differ. Etch-A-Sketch provides a far better experience…
Bobthearch: Let’s see just how low their market share can dip! They can squeeze me for $100 by releasing OSX for Intel, or they get nothin’.
You know if tommorrow Apple released OS X for Intel and drop their hardware, I highly suggest shareholders to sell off shares cause this company would go down.
While their market share dip, they are actually making a profit. By using their large loyal customer base, plus a rather secure niche, they manage to earn a high profit margin. If they want to get marketshare, they have to do it in stages like Palm.
So by time OS X comes to your PC, if tommorrow Apple decides software is its future, trust me your current hardware is obsolete.
Now think. If Apple just depended on software sales, how much people would buy it? How much money would Apple make? Think about that.
Will: That’s the best part about principles, they’re so easily cast aside when they become inconvenient.
True, true. For the majority of people. I on the other hand stick to my principles even though it is so easy not too..
Will: And ya know what?
And ya know what? You don’t really have to repeat someone else word for word especially when it doesn’t have anything to do with the quote.
Bobthearch: If they want to be a *successful* hardware company and reverse their market-share trends, they need to be a lot more competitive with other hardware companies.
Guess what? Never would happen. Why? Apple couldn’t care less about market share, as long as they make far more money than computer makers their size (in terms of user base).
Bobthearch: with businesses ignoring them, a few dedicated customers sticking around
Actually, the reason, the main one, why Apple isn’t all that big in the corporate market because IT ISN’T THEIR TARGET MARKET. Their “few” (which is actually millions, but can be considered few compared to close to a billion on the PC side) is very profitable.
Alex: Seriously, why have a license that allows people to take advantage of you!
Seriously, why must pro-GNU guys must always pick on XFree86 license? Actually, if XFree86 is (L)GPL, they probably won’t accept contributions from outside if they never send it straight to them. In other words GPL is useless to them.
Remember, to XFree86 developers, it does’t hurt them if Apple doesn’t release the source code or contribute back. It is business as usual.
Instead XFree86 benefits from Apple because more people would use X11 (therefore potentially more X11 apps), plus free advertisement on Apple’s website.
Some people will never get it.
I’m not blind. I use a PC all day long. I adminstrate two workgroups using PC’s around the clock.Blah Blah Blah…
I would rather spend my cash on a used Mac with slower CPU for the Mac experience than be GIVEN a cutting edge PC loaded up.
Clones.
Give me a Mac IIci any day! Seriously. Maybe I don’t get it.
quality is something that is hard to describe. people, especially computer people, get caught up in specs and price to the decimal place. but quality takes those into account and more. over the years, my experience with apples and pc’s has shown me that *usually* (but not always), apples have more quality when taken wholistically.
apple’s usually cost a few hundred dollars more when comparing specs to pc’s. but they also come with more to start as far as ports, cards, etc. so besides the few bucks extra you’d have to spend to put firewire, wi-fi, bluetooth, and dvd-burner in your pc, you also have time and elegence. you flat out can’t get a PC notebook with specs that compare to a TiBook at that price in that single package. you can have a monster PC laptop with cards sticking out the side and docking bays hanging off the back, but it’s not elegant whatsoever.
another way that apple build’s in value is in the resale area. it’s no joke that you can sell a used mac for a whole hell of a lot more than a used PC. so you’re first mac costs more but then it makes up for it when you upgrade. i’ve done it, i have actually bought a pc and a mac at the same time, 2 years later wanted to upgrade, and the mac was worth 2.5x more on the used market than the pc ($400 vs. $1000). that extra $600 sure softened the blow for the cost of the new dual-G4 i was picking up.
finally, and especially with OS X, there’s the satisfaction of using the thing. times i’ve had to reformat my harddrive in using a mac for over 10 years? never. i have done it, once by choice. data lost by the computer IN ANY WAY over the last 10 years? 2 floppy discs back when we used them, they had college work on them and i was pissed. never had a drive go down, never had a bad video card, never had a port go bad, one time had a dead power supply. OS9 crashed too much, but OSX is damn stable (as you would expect).
the whole i-App thing is pretty addictive, i have to admit. i wasn’t convinced it was all that initially, but i got an iPod and watched my buddy with his digital camera and iPhoto and it’s amazing how easy, intuitive, and non-insulting the whole process is. no wizards to make you feel stupid, no dancing paperclips, just logical simple yet powerful software that reacts like you think it should. on the other end of things, no command line required, no man pages required, very little driver interaction or installation required.
apple people know (or at least feel) that they have a great product and we’re not all rich, believe me. and we don’t all drive pedestrian cars. different strokes for different folks. but the analogy i’ve always liked is that i love shoes, i wear them often, i rely on them, and i even shop around for them, but i have no idea how to (nor desire) to build them, repair them, or deal with them in any way other then put them on my feet and tie them. and i expect the same from my computer.
This did start out as an X11 on Mac OS X topic, not a things Apple needs to do for me to consider using it thread.
Stop bitching. People use what they like.
The price of Apple’s computers has almost nothing to do with anything here. People will pay however much something costs if its something they want. For a business, its the same way. If they feel they need something they will pay for it. Money has about as much to do with it as the weather on Mars.
You can disagree with me all you want – but i’ll give you the example that I experienced to learn this from. I’m a periodontist. So I do gum and jaw bone surgery, basically restoration of gums to save your remaining teeth. I had a patient come in, for an upper right quadrant surgery to restore some of the bone that had erroded around her molars. The other quadrant was just as bad, and she was at a high risk for loosing her molars. I told her she should make an appointment to come back in a few weeks so we could do the other side. She politely declined. She said she couldn’t afford to because she had been budgeting for a big screen tv. To me, this is kind of strange. That health comes secondary to a big screen tv. But this is just how people are it seems; if they want something, they are going to get it. If they don’t feel that its something that has real meaning to them they won’t.
So for all of the people here who have this inner need to point out that Apple’s are not worth it to them, good for you. Go see your dentist and have your teeth cleaned. But stop acting like the linux zealots who feel the same urge to shout about hey they are better people just because what they have chosen.
Personally, I have a mac. I’m happy I own one. I really like this computer. That is what gives it value to me. Those of you who own PCs, I’m pretty sure you are also happy you have your computer, and it may not be for the same reasons I like mine. Does that mean that there is something wrong with me for not being happy with what makes you happy? I don’t think so. So why not stop it with the phallic comparisons? Next Mac topic you feel like crabbing about just post some inches and be done with it.