“The largest flaw with Linux is not in its ease of use or installation. There’s no crisis with lack of software. The hardware support is solid. Actually, I feel Linux is very much ready for the masses. The greatest flaw with Linux is that nobody knows what it is.” Read the full commentary at NewsForge.
I believe that the greatest flaw is the lack of commercial software, but that can’t be helped until there is demand for it on linux. So, there is a chicken and the egg problem.
linux is a kernel. 😉
heres my opinion .. it may sound strange to some ears… but i believe its true…
when i get computer novices … or windows diehards to try linux… the thing that stumps them, confuses them… and then ultimately frustrates them is too much choice…
they’re confuised by all the differed window managers… desktop environments… 3 different browsers…
they know what a mouse is, they know what an icon is, they know what a browser and an email client is… they just don’t like the fact there are more than one of each on a standard linux install…
so when i set up boxes for these people, i remove all desktop icons… and place ONE for an email client, OBNE for a browser and ONE for … etc… they seem happier with that.
is this the approach taken by Lycoris? i hope it is…
itmay be sacrilege but these people don’t want overwhelming choice.. not at the beginning…
by 2eurocents
I think the greatest flaw is commercial support, too, but not just software. Linux supports a lot of hardware, but it doesn’t support it well without the manufacturer’s assistance. But how many manufacturers actually think Linux is worth supporting? Well, more and more will in the next couple years, but today it seems almost pathetic considering how much has been done with that OS without anyone’s help.
— “linux is a kernel. ;-)”
Oh my god Im gonna shoot you.
Is that it’s crap on the desktop of mom and pop. The fact that most people haven’t heard of it is a feature, not a bug.
is the lack of a well-documented and stable api for writing device drivers. Having to recomplie all modules whenever there is some minor version change just plain sucks!
Maybe the situation has improved somewhat, but it is still a mess.
regards,
tuttle
And his very old mantra, as
no lack of software.
Well except a true desktop, a true media browser and viewer, a true disk browser, a true CD burner, a true dictionnary, a true grammar, a true security manager, a true easy way to install _and_ deinstall, and so on, and so on…
The hardware support is solid.
Well, i was about to answer yes for old hardware, but i just remember my problem with an aged voodoo 2 addon card, and also a very primitive sound blaster 16…
Actually, I feel Linux is very much ready for the masses.
Clearly, this guy makes a dramatic confusion between masses and Linux troll ;-))))))
The greatest flaw with Linux is that nobody knows what it is
The greatest flaw for Linux is this kind of nonsense “advocacy”.
Dot.
No, not NET and no pun intended ;-)))
but not to Linux. There are other computers out there that are much better suited for consumers who care about quality, ease-of-use, rich application functionality, and aesthetics than cheap PCs running Linux.
Can you say…Mac?
Jared
What Linux will help would be:
1. IHV should be able to add drivers without
opening the source code and a recompiling
the kernel or a module.
2. ISV must have a stable tk with a well defined
api that will not be changed anymore. (With wrappers…)
3. Wrapp a libconfig or something around config files
so that everyone can alter them without messing them up
4. get rid of starting programms (X or rc’s) with shell
scripts. no one can alter these in a setup process.
5. a new init with config files(no shell scripts), parallel
execution and dependencys.
6. no one should mount a cd, floppy or usb-device.
7. document your api’s so everyone can use it.
gregor
The real problem with any Linux distro is that, once the system is installed, it is not possible to modify it without fidling with the “ugly side” (text files, RPM, scripts) of the OS.
Want to change your IP configuration ? Want to add or remove some piece of hardware ? Want to uninstall an application ? Welcome to the world of the command line.
This, and of course the cryptic and outdated layout of the file system…
…is that there are to many myths about how hard Linux is.
It IS possible – and common – to add a driver WITHOUT recompiling the kernel. But of course, at least as a developer, you have to (re)compile the module – after all, the module IS the driver.
It may be difficult to edit the configuration of SOME apps, but most stuff is configured using simple GUIs – and those NOT providing a GUI are neither meant for simple consumers, nor is configuring some Win-apps using the registry easier.
You don’t have to mount drives manually in Linux, there are Automounters – anyway, you have to mount CDs on a Mac, too.
Compiling is DIFFERENT from the Windows typical setup, but not HARDER – and there are GUIs for that, too.
Documentation for common Linux APIs are generally top-notch.
QT for example is a very mature, stable, complete and well-designed API, so there IS at least one API about as powerfull as the WinAPI.
Obviously, after switching, for the thousandth time, to root, just for install, and reswitch, to root, to have write/perms on the cd, and write a very little ( only half a mile to say the truth ;-))) ) command ( but just after a good month of documentation reading, and some cd “over” burned ) to configure the cd to burn in udf ( aka rewritable ), you can, yes you can, really you can…
use cdrecord !
Well, i do not really care, first i use gtoaster ( same problems, don’t be afraid…), and second, i now switch back to w2k and use my old Nero. pfiuu ;-)))
Media browser ? just _really_ play mp3 avi and so on.
Konquewhat ? You mean the same “crashing every two minutes” tool than Nautilus ? I have switch back to MC, not really graphic, but i can navigate in the directories without heart attack. Thank you ;-)))
KDE ? well nice UI ( i _love_ kconsole ) but definitively uggly. Anyway every apps ( well, to be precise, there’s not any application with KDE, except kconsole ) disappear after three minutes after they have started. Gnome ? a desktop without a menu manager… You’re joking, aren’t you ? ;-)))
PAM and host.allow/deny ( don’t forget do verify the rc.0/5 directories… ) and xinetd, and tcp-wrapper ? A little bit of squid and tripwire to be sure ?
Well, yes, after two month of documentation reading, and tons of files to set up, they can ( don’t try to go on internet with that ;-))) ) make you believe that your config is secure. Of course, you need to be a very good believer. And don’t foolish you, you will need years and years of improvment to reach the level of a Linux troll. By level, i do not mean system skill, but ability to believe nonsense ;-)))
To finish deinstall Windows is not really a problem. Standard is format or fdisk, but you may try Lilo or Grub or mkfs, just a little error, and they will really help you with that, for free ! No more problems with Windows ;-)))))))))))
Or ipchains.
Well, if you are an amateur of esotericism, occultism and abstruseness in config files, security is really easy with Linuw ;-))))))
I have had very good experiences with KDE 3.1… no crashes. I have mplayer and kmplayer set up (yes I had to read the manpage) and I can view anything that’s been thrown at me thus far. I use xmms for mp3, and mplayer for movies. Kind of like most people use winamp for mp3 and windows media player for movies in windows.
I do not find it difficult reading documentation and editing configuration files. And I know my configuration is secure, so long as I install security fixes every month or so.
I understand that everyone does not want to do this. But if you wanted to install and properly configure a web proxy, or firewall, or intrusion detection system in windows, you’re going to have to know what you’re doing and read the documentation, just like in linux.
Anyway, I don’t want to get in a troll war here. I understand that linux is not for everybody, and windows is just fine for most people. I think linux on the desktop is mostly for “geeks.”
BTW… fdisk works just as well for getting rid of linux as it does for windows.
Are all the whining users that try it for a week and complain how hard it is, how much it sucks, how terrible the apis are. Its not their fault, they just don’t have the proper perspective. They are ignorant and they can’t help it. There are over 1500 different linux distributions for desktops and servers and pdas, the main ones releasing new versions every 6 months. For example, the changes between RedHat 6.x, 7.x and 8.x for software features, and the system as a whole, are quite remarkable. Yet the adverage complainer doesn’t know this. They look at the desktop, find some small imperfection, and run away in tears.
Its a work in progress folks, try looking at it from the perspective of the glass being half full, then you might see how close it is getting.
Everyone knows that a GUI is simply a graphical representation of the machine language we really want the CPU to execute, right? You don’t actually think our CPUs understand windows and scroll bars and mouse clicks. And everyone knows an OS is simply a process scheduler that basicly gives your processes access to your hardware, for a limitted amount of time. Then why does everyone insist on confusing the two?
Linux runs on how many architectures? If we cooperated, if we worked together with this technology, it would be very possible, in fact, it would be simple to create a unified desktop across all the devices we take for granted: cell phones, pdas, web pads, laptops, PCs, servers, supercomputers. But Linux offers us unified stability and compatibility in a world of commercial chaos. The point is it is modular and stable and free and ohfg what more do you want?!???
“I feel Linux is very much ready for the masses. The greatest flaw with Linux is that nobody knows what it is.”
I think this is way off base. I can’t even say how many times It’s like “hey this program looks cool, I’ll try to install it” So I go to install it and it has some dependency or another. SO I track down the dependency and it has a dependency. I track down its dependency and I can’t install it without breaking support for something else on the distribution. If I do manage to get past all that I end up with non default libraries on my distro and RPM’s for that version of that distro might not work anymore. MY success rate of installing software on the first try is something like 40 %! KDE comes with something like 36 RPMs, to install them you need the RPM’s for your version number of your distro. I.e. to offer KDE for the 4 latest versions of the 20 most popular RPM based distros would require building and testing (drum roll) 2880 packages! Backwards compatibility and software distribution is a nightmare. Why do you think you see such a huge lack of closed source software on Linux? About the only way to distribute software for Linux is to GPL your code and let all the distributors create the install files. This is also the reason so many distributors use some form of community support. In 5 years burning your fav distro will require a 50 stack of CD-R’s. The huge code base under Linux is going to be impossible to maintain. It is my opinion that desktop Linux leaves a much larger footprint than windows AND is less stable.
I think Linux is solid in many ways, except for one thing. An equivalent to Windows Media Player. XMMS and Rhythmbox are nice, but need just a little bit more. I want a Media Player that can be used for Audio AND Video for all codecs possible, that can be used to rip/encode/burn cds, organize my music, display nice visuals, and that supports skins/themes. I’m sure that Linux has this functionality by using several apps at once, but I think it would be nice to have a totally integrated Media Player, like M$ has done with Windows Media Player.
I think Linux is solid in many ways, except for one thing. An equivalent to Windows Media Player. XMMS and Rhythmbox are nice, but need just a little bit more. I want a Media Player that can be used for Audio AND Video for all codecs possible, that can be used to rip/encode/burn cds, organize my music, display nice visuals, and that supports skins/themes. I’m sure that Linux has this functionality by using several apps at once, but I think it would be nice to have a totally integrated Media Player, like M$ has done with Windows Media Player. With Gstreamer, this should be possible. Once I polish up on my programming, I’d be glad to contribute to a project with something like this in mind.
I agree 100%, we need to heaar about linux.
To me the only people that are off base are people who say things like, “KDE comes with something like 36 RPMs, to install them you need the RPM’s for your version number of your distro.”
Linux will not be ready for the desktop until the common Linux user stops being ignorant of Linux’s true abilities. The KDE I use doesn’t use any RPMs.
Linux has a hell of a lot of problems as a desktop OS, I don’t think denying their existence does Linux advocates any favours. The attitude that Linux is better than Windows in every way and people who don’t use it are ignorant sheep makes Linux advocates look like total zealots.
I think people would be more likely to stick with Linux, rather than giving up in disgust when they encounter it’s rough edges, if Linux advocates were honest about it’s faults. Telling people that it’s just as easy to use and refined as Windows, then responding to ease of use complaints with RTFM and personal insults really damages the credibility of Linux on the desktop IMO.
“It IS possible – and common – to add a driver WITHOUT recompiling the kernel. But of course, at least as a
developer, you have to (re)compile the module – after all, the module
IS the driver. ”
But why can’t you just copy the binary file into the usual directory
for drivers? It’s the programmer’s job to compile it, not the user’s.
The crunch question is, is Linux usable in practice by a person who
cannot and does not want to compile C code, nor has a technical
support person handy?
It’s may be ready for use in large offices, where a support person can
be employed.
SLOW is the real word.
Pokey, waiting, can’t wait anymore.
Guess that is what you get when you force a uxix system on a x86 machine.
As it stands now Linux is not a real alternative to Windows XP. I’m not a MS Shill and am very open to alternatives to Windows XP but other than Mac OS there are not any realistic alternatives. I have tried multiple distributions and one misses my video card or another one doesn’t operate my network card. Mandrake comes the closest hardware wise But the 2.4.19 kernel that ships with Mandrake 9 doesn’t support DMA on my Intel Motherboard. Windows doesn’t find everything either. But there is a straightfoward way for me to QUICKLY install those drivers. And if I have stability issues (which are rare now) I can find those solutions to those problems quickly and they are presented in a way that I can easily understand them. I would love to see a Linux alternative to Windows but I think for people to move to Linux it is going to have to be 105% as usable (I didn’t say as easy) as Windows and while you may not want to admit it Microsoft has really raised the bar with Windows XP, more stable and better performing than Windows 9x. Just my .02
But why can’t you just copy the binary file into the usual directory
for drivers? It’s the programmer’s job to compile it, not the user’s.
You can do it. I.E.: Red Hat8 doesn’t come with the NTFS driver: you just need to download the module in rpm format, double click on it, (a window will pop up) write the root password, and that’s all.
The same happens with the lucent win-modem driver and others I have tried…
xavier:
Konquewhat ? You mean the same “crashing every two minutes” tool than Nautilus ?
What version of Nautilus are you using? 0.0001 Beta-megaalpha? Come on… My Nautilus 2.dont remember hasn’t crashed since I installed it 2 months ago.
Gnome ? a desktop without a menu manager… You’re joking, aren’t you ? ;-)))
Double click on “Start Here”, then doubleclick on “Applications”, and WOW, Surprise!!!!! You can edit your Menu!!!!
… and has no flaw at all.
Unless you’re somebody’s mom or pop, grandma or grandpa, or somebody’s little sister, or your name is joe. In which case anything else would be perfect for you.
I think this article and every post here misses one important point. Your average “mom & pop” and “joe six-pack” type of consumer doesn’t care about Linux. I’m no MS fan myself – I like to fool around with alt OS’s. But the standard computer *user* that “Linux-on-the-desktop” is aimed at doesn’t see things that way.
I don’t know anyone who has a computer at all who hasn’t heard of Linux and has a good idea of what it is. They know its a non-Windows OS like the Mac. Some even remember the Amiga. They don’t care.
Despite the poison spewed by MacFascists and Linux zealots (which doesn’t help either case one bit), Windows is not *that* bad. People just want something they can turn on and get a job done. To them Linux and even the Mac doesn’t offer enough of an advantage for them to bother.
yes, having kde,gnome and several wms along with konq, moz, netscape would be daunting…so don’t give a new user those. give them kde. konq, and koffice. it is easy just to use all the kompany software. or, if you want, switch them for moz or OOo.
I agree, we don’t need 3 browsers and 2+ office suites, why do distributors give them to us.
Are all the whining users that try it for a week and complain how hard it is, how much it sucks, how terrible the apis are. Its not their fault, they just don’t have the proper perspective.>>>
Because it should take that frikken long to have a OS that can actually do something useful? I taught myself how to navigate OS X in less than a day. I worked daily in OS X for over a year before I *had* to go to the command line to get something done.
If it’s needlessly hard and confusing, it’s crap.
I tried Corel Linux for a month about 18 months ago. The most useful thing I ever got it to do was change my wallpaper to something pretty and play lots and lots of reversi and kmajahong.
I don’t want to go to the command line. I don’t want to compile. I don’t want to program. I want to write papers, surf the web, and edit html. I want to double click and run.
I want to attach the new piece of hardware, have the correct drivers built into my OS, or double click drivers that work and go. Having to hand edit a driver file is so … Windows 3.1/Dos 6.
I expect to have to invest a week of time to get something really killer out of a program like P-Shop or FCP. I expect to know how to run around and do meat and potatoes things in an OS by the end of the day.
The more I hear about Xandros, Lindows, and Lycoris, the more interesting they sound, but until they’re as good, solid, and throughly supported as OS X, I’m not touching them.
If you want to slay Microsoft, you have to be as good as Microsoft. No iffs, ands, or buts.
Linux, go see what BeOS does, try to learn something.
I don’t believe there’re “Great” flaws in GNU/Linux; it only requires from you some time to learn how to use it.
The fact is great many Windows users are too lazy to learn anything; all they do is clicking the mouse to install & uninstall, browse the Internet with mouse, play games using the same mouse and a joystick, use keyboard and mouse to write a few sentences for email, and eveything else that involves the mouse but no reading or learning on technical stuffs.
Those lazies don’t want to have a look at the README’s, INSTALL’s or how to install using “./configure-make-make install”. For them, everything need be automated. How difficult can it be to spend a few minutes reading installation instructions? This is for a near bullet-proof operating system that costs zero or a fraction of what Windows costs.
Of course, GNU/Linux can benefit from improvements in every sector; but who are we to whine about how difficult it is? We hardly pay anything for it.
Linux, go see what BeOS does, try to learn something.
Linux as a platform is growing everyday, BeOS is dead. Actually, Linux may become the kernel of some of the next BeOS clones.
If you want to compare the GUI, then compare it against Gnome or KDE, they are the main GUI on Linux (and FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Hurd, Solaris, etc…)
The fact is great many Windows users are too lazy to learn anything
Most Windows users are not lazy, they are people who have better things to do than spend hours fiddling with howtos and config files. Maybe you are a student with a lot of time to waste on your operating system. For most peoples (me included), the operating system is just a tool to get a jobs done. And with Windows (or MacOS) most users can concentrate on doing the jobs done.
Would you buy a dishwasher if it required you to read 70 pages of manual just to get it plugged, then requires 10 hours of fiddling and tweaking just to get it work normally ? Of course not ! Why would an operating system be any different ? People don’t use a computer to use Linux or Windows, they use a computer to do their work/game. The best operating system is the one that gets the less in the way between you and what you want to do.
I take it back. I was sooo wrong, and I regret that I spread so much FUD.
Linux is not a kernel.
Linux is a MACRO kernel.
*runs away cackling*
>>when i get computer novices … or windows diehards to try linux… the thing that stumps them, confuses them… and then ultimately frustrates them is too much choice…
they’re confuised by all the differed window managers… desktop environments… 3 different browsers…<<
you are very correct. Bettween having a million differant apps for the same things, with names no one knows of, and things like this comming up during installs it is very confusing even to people who do understand these things.
People don’t want to see anything to do with apps on an install. And having a clone of some commerical app but it has some differant funky name is going to confuse them.
There are things the linux world could do to improve things overall but it’s to late and won’t happen now.
1)The main one is be one distro. this is one of the single biggest flaws. It would be so much easier to pick up on linux if everyone was on the same page. But it’s to late for this one so it’s not going to happen. You have to do one size fits all before you do specialized, it does not work the other way around.
2)Dependancy hell. I doubt this will ever go away ether.
3) Get rid of crud, get rid of a million apps. Focus on the main apps, unify the factions of differant apps doing the same thing. And improve the names. Anyone ever notice the names for opensource programs are terrible.
4) Relize that people who are trying linux are mainly just trying it for the hell of it. Very Very few give a rats ass about opensource, or find windows bad, or about it’s abilities. It’s just something there to try. They have no motivation to fight with it. So their not going to put a lot of time or work into it. If it doesn’t work for them right away it’s over.
5) relize that vendor hardware support is only going to come in strides when they see that their customers can easily use linux or want to. Otherwise their is no point in bothering. They have 2 other platforms to concentrate on. Also, bitching about them only suppling binaries is not going to help ether. If you want someone to do something but then bitch about how they do it your shooting yourself in the foot.
5b) this means if you want to improve linux your going to have to improve the ease of use, this means all those people you don’t want to help out and make linux easier for since they don’t want to put effort in to it. Unless you do make it for these people your wishes arn’t going to happen.
6) make linux look nice. I don’t care what you do to it it still looks horrible. Even things like that windows desktop clone shown on OSnews looked horrible. Linux still shows through. But a clone is not what you need. You need a look of its own that looks good.
6b) Make things uniform. Lay down the law and get everything looking and working on the same page. Unfortenly the designs of linux work against this. It has been set up letting everyone do their own thing. Yes this is an issue of X and managers not linux.
6c) To those who try linux, linux is linux plus X11 plus a window manager. Trying to seperate them is counter productive. It doesn’t matter if linux is just the kernel, to the user that means nothing. Just the kernel isn’t very useful.
there are countless other things. But it comes down to a few simple realities. The layout of linux, the linux community , and the way it all works has been set and will not change. But these very ways are counter to what people want. Linux will never grow to a ,mainstream consumer level. No improvements are going to get it past the way it is. It will grow to some level and maybe well in some such as servers. But there is simple to many fundamental things that will stop it’s growth. From it’s poor name, to the GPL, to it’s Cluster F&(* of orginization, to it not being a commerial product, with commerialc products running on it. These are things that won’t change and with that linux will forever be limited. If you cannot understand these things you never will, your just to narrow minded to see the realities of economy’s and the world.
I’m new to Linux. I’ve been using it as my main OS for about two weeks now. I switch back to windows occationally, but I’ve been trying to give linux a fair run. I installed SuSE 8.1 on my system. Installation was not hard by any means, so much work has been put into the making the installation of Linux that they seem to have left out some very important things.
Look at how easy it is to install software in windows. There are three packaging formats that I know of, which are rpm, deb, and the one slackware uses. Having installed SuSE 8.1 I can only speak for rpm, but being that it is the most prominently used among distributions you would think that it would be easier to use. I think one of the main problems is that each rpm has to be specifically designed for the system that it is going to run on. Another major problem is that most of the software that you will download from the internet still only distributes the source. There needs to be a movement to some kind of standard installation system. If it’s not rpm, which I don’t see as workable, it should be something that will work on every distribution. It should also work on every version of the distribution.
There should not be a need to compile anything from source. Would you ever give a Windows user source and ask them to compile it? Odds are that they don’t even have a compiler on their computer, but as I’m becoming a programmer I like that it’s set up for development. I don’t think the average user should come into contact with such things. In other reviews I’ve seen, they say that there is little or no need to use the terminal. If you want to install software, nothing is further from the truth. On Linux in its current state, it would be impossible to avoid the terminal completely.
The system of library files needs some work too. They should all be able to be installed without the affect of other libraries installed. Linux has libraries that are dependent on other libraries. This definitely needs to be changed. They should be able to be installed and just work. Many people complain about DLL hell on Windows, but if Linux is going to be able to gain some ground on the desktop this has got to be made easier for users. If you’re missing a DLL on Windows you can just search for it and install it. If there is an older version of the same library on your system it’s over-written. I figured that would work the same on Linux, as it makes the most sense to store new versions of the same library in the same location as the previous version.
“The fact is great many Windows users are too lazy to learn anything …”
how many of you guys don’t use a remote control with a TV set ???
money are made to let people do complicated things easily or do simple things the hard way.
men are lazy in nature, so they constantly try to figure out an easier way to do things with less effort – remote controls, toilets, condoms, pills, viagra, credit cards …
certainly, when it comes to hobby, the story is different – like fishing and buying ready made seafood from your neighborhood supermarket
Isnt it about time they did. Someone needs to put a commercial up on the TV or something.
The “Linux OS” as a whole has a lot of baggage. It is a server and accidemic OS developed by CS scientists and hackers. Note that the “baggage” on Linux is NOT the _INITIAL_ _FUNDIMENTIAL_ _RELIABILITY_ _AND_ _SECURITY_ _FLAWS_ like some other OS with WAY TOO MUCH BAGGAGE.
The pieces are there. Kernel, X11 and toolkits are resonably well designed and implamented. What is needed is for the community or some subset of the community to have the guts to create a well planned SUBSET of the Linux OS codebase and make significant changes to the underling system to improve useability.
This can be done and the end result will be something like what Apple did with OSX. And yes, application programmers running “real” Linux distros should be expected to port to this optimized subset Linux. Using User Mode Linux it should be doable to run a virtual install of this Optimized Linux on top of any existing distro for testing.
This really needs to be done before the Two Leaning Towers of Cruft fall into a pile of package managers and idiotic p-code reimplamentations.
Folks,
We have a great many comments about how the reviewer is an idiot, Windows users are lazy, Linux sux, and other sundry and diverse types. I will throw another log in the fire.
Linux is not ready for the desktop yet. It isn’t even close. Linux will never be ready for the desktop. Linux has become a generic term and it will take specialization to produce desktop applications that the world will use. One of the posts mentioned “1500 Linux distributions.” That is exactly the reason thay Linux is not ready.
SuSE Linux may be close. RedHat Linux may be close. Lycoris may be even closer. But Linux, as it is fragmented today, is not ready for a desktop environment. And Linux is getting even more fragmented with each new distribution and each new version of each distribution.
If SuSE wants to produce a stable desktop system, they need to produce it. They also need to package, or re-write the applications they release and ensure they work on the SuSE desktop. Until SuSE ensures the software works on their desktop, SuSE is guaranteed to be nothing more than a hobby operating system. As long as all the major players do is point users to a generic repository for generic applications thay may work (after you get a specific driver, after you compile the driver, after you re-compile the kernel, after you spin around three times before you lay down) it ain’t gonna fly. SuSE (or any other signifigant distribution) will not succeed as long as they “depend on the kindness of strangers.”
If you are a techno-geek, you can have immense fun and productivity out of most any Linux distribution. I am such. I have five different physical computers with 14 different operating systems running on them. The total number changes with the seasons and beta releases.
However, the average computer user (95% plus of the world) is just that; a computer user. They do not have the time or interest in learning Linux, or BeOS, or even the latest version of Windows. The user wants to be able to plug the machine in, connect to their ISP, start browsing and sending e-mail. They want to be able to write a letter to Mom and print it out for snail-mail. They want to install ten different programs for listening to music, watching videos, scanning old pictures, printing, and maybe, just maybe, develop a simple Web site using Frontpage or NetObjects Fusion. They could care less about compiling something; they don’t have the interest or the time. If the software does not install first time and work first time, they will take it back to the store for something that does. They will trade it in even quicker if it is something they downloaded for no out-of-pocket expense.
There are many great Linux distributions out there and they are making some serious strides in the server area. They are taking market share away from Microsoft. There are also some fantastic applications available for the Linux OS. Users can run some Windows applications without having a Windows operating system on their computer. This is all great and grand to us techno-geeks; it doesn’t mean a thing to the majority of the computer users of the world. The first time you mention command line interface they will trash the software for something else.
My $0.02 worth!!
1) I don’t care what Linux users say, it is too hard for average people. If you’re with-it enough with computers to use Linux, you’re much better with them than the average person already.
2) People can’t install the software they want
3) People have no reason that they can see to use it instead of Windows
4) Installing software is far too hard, and there are nasty incompatibility issues they couldn’t possibly understand
5) I don’t care what people say, KDE & Gnome are slow, bloated and badly designed from a UI perspective.
Linux – I mean the foundation – is very well ready for the desktop. I use it, my company uses it, my dad and my girlfriend does, too; I also use it on my notebook, my PDA, my server and my PVR, so yes, I’m used to it…
But the point is – if I didn’t play Admin for all those systems, I guess it wouldn’t be used on all those machines. So I guess it’s not ready for Joe Sixpack – yet.
But this is the real henn and egg problem, Linux is mostly a geek desktop os, so developers assume that the users know what they do, if it would be used by Joe Sixpack, installing software and drivers would be not easier, but it would SEEM to be easier – as easy(?) as doing stuff like that on Mac or Windows.
I remember a time when DOS/ Windows was HARD, too. (I think it’s harder than ever now, at least if you want to do it right…)
BTW, I had to setup XP for a friend yesterday, and it rebooted five times and crashed three times during that progress, haven’t seen the almost forgotten BSOD for a while… 😉
I will declare my prejudices up front. I am a desktop linux user, and have no problems with any of the difficulties outlined in the various posts here. However, I have taken a small amount of time to read documentation, and learn about how my system works. I have used windows in the past (and presently at work) and am frustrated at the exorbitant cost and poor quality of software (relative to cost).
The thing I just don’t understand with respect to people that insist on running down linux and advocating for windows is that they are shooting themselves in the foot. If their were strong competition for MS in the desktop market, two things would happen. First, the quality of software would rise, and the cost of that software would go down. You would think that would be a goot thing(TM). But for some strange reason, there are people who have an inexplicable desire to ensure that the MS monopoly continues. Why?
Sure, linux is not the be all and end all on the desktop. It needs work in some areas. In my view it is in fact better than Windows, however, I am happy to concede that other people with other needs may prefer Windows. Windows has its strong points also.
However, I can see nothing beneficial in trying to perpetuate the MS monopoly. If Windows advocates were truly interested in improving the desktop computer experience, they would be advocating FOR linux, not running it down. Strong competition means strong innovation, high quality, and cheaper prices. A monopoly means stifled innovation, poor quality, and high prices. It just makes no sense to me.
Could someone who ran linux down in this comments section here please explain why? Surely the more logical approach for a windows advocate would be to do everything within your power to make linux a strong competitor to MS to ensure that all benefit. Surely anyone who is interested in improving windows should also be interested in improving linux. Strong competition will result in better products for all.
What am I missing here?
The flaw is timing. 20 years ago had redhat (or another company) been around to copy IBM’s PC-DOS also and come out with “Red Hat DOS ” with a simple GUI.. every system would have Redhat XP now haha. ITs extremely hard to redefine the current PC interface now when most people still think windows is part of the computer for the past 20 years haha.
Right now, I’m burned out on trying out Linux distros. But, for general desktop use by ordinary people, I have to go with Lycoris. They have done several things that have made me come to that conclusion.
They have created a “look and feel”. Some say it’s a copy of XP and there similarities (which, I think, are good). It is a good look and feel, an inviting one.
Their Control Center is actually a front end for the KDE controls, but it very well done. And, you can do things like add hardware with it.
They do not overwhelm with software choices. They’ve got it just about right, for what is available right now.
They have done something I applaud – they have not rushed to adopt KDE 3 – instead, they have used their limited resources to turn Open Office and other applications into their Productivity Pak, wit the distinct Lycoris look and feel. i mean, i wish they did have KDE 3, but with five employees, I applaud their determination to make something that’s actually useful to regular users, rather than try to keep up with the latest and, in essence, end up spinning their wheels.
They have credibility 😉
The Lycoris community is ultra friendly and helpful. The community website is a very nice place to go.
Because of these hings, I’m sticking with them. And yes, ordinary users can get it pre-installed on a Wal-Mart Microtel computer and start using it right out of the box.
The problem isn’t Linux…
It’s the rest of the developers and distro makers…
If Apple can make a *nix based OS that easy, and that user-friendly…
So can RedHat, SuSE, Mandrake, Lindows, Lycoris, and the rest of the OSS bunch…
Maybe all they need is to focus more on getting Windows users than the current inter-distro wars.
— Or just focus more on the HOME DESKTOP!!
What confuses me is that, AOL has the most number of users in USA. AOL is also one of the worst ISPs out there, it is totally proprietary, out-of-standards but it is highly available to average consumer, so everybody uses it. So Linux may not be as good as Windows, it may not be ready at all, but marketing and availability is the most important issue here. It is not Linux, but the availability. When I first bought my computer, it was very hard to buy one without Windows. In that sense, I think we need to look at the issues which explains why Linux is not offered. I think that is mostly because of supporting cost. When something is screwed up in Linux, it is not easy to fix it. It is actually pretty hard to fix it. So Linux has to solve the main usability problems. Most open source project guys really don’t care about the end user. They have scripts to do certain things. For an average user this is not an option at all.
–“You don’t have to mount drives manually in Linux, there are Automounters – anyway, you have to mount CDs on a Mac, too.”
All my macs, from my old 68k running System 7.5 to my G3 running 10.2, mount any removable media automatically. What kind of mac have you been using!?
The only way to avoid all Linux distribution related problems is to avoid Linux distributions:)
I use FreeBSD on my servers and firewalls and win2k on my desktops and i have a stress free life.
I recommend that anyone who doesnt want to go insane should switch from Linux to FreeBSD as soon as possible.
If you want a decent desktop OS-use win2k
If you want a decent server OS-use FreeBSD
Its as simple as that.
Linux has been cloning UNIX and now its trying pityfully to clone Windows
I think he means the mere act of mounting, be it automagical or manual, compared to the always-there stance of Windows.
Linux, go see what BeOS does, try to learn something.
What, write an OS that has no apps and then sell it to a company who will turn around and kill it? That sounds like a plan. Not a good plan, but a plan nonetheless.
Serge, you have hit upon a point that has great truth in it. I help my friends and neighbors set up their new computers. It is so often the case that they get on AOL and stay there. It wouldn’t make any difference to them what OS it would be running on. And yes, I remember the “old” AOL and how it looked. Recently, I saw it and, my God, what a disastor. It is such a mess and, not being used to it, it took me a minute too find where email was, with all the ads and other crap in your face! And, I try to show them, whatever OS they have, what they can do with it. Many times, it is of no avail. LOL, one of Linix’s best selling points – no AOL or MSN 🙂
The things that Linux lacks depends on who you talk to. For users who are satisfied with everything about Windows except for the price, Linux will be a huge dissapointment.
These users want to play Yahoo pool, listen to an MP3, putz around in chatrooms, and burn MP3s onto a CD. They want a free Windows. When Linux doesn’t provide that, they become bitter like some of the people who post regular negativity against every Linux article available on OSNews.
Linux is somewhat weak in the multimedia department. There are some really good multimedia players available, but they are usually beyond the capacity of a normal Windows user to install and configure. Personally, even if I could not get MPlayer to work, I think the trade off is worth it.
It all depends on who you ask.
How can people with such computer skills even work with linux? Windows is forced and patched and goofy. The techies that should really drop linux seem drawn to it. Why wouldn’t they support BeOS since it is actually made to work on an x86 box? Millions of hours of work to force a unix system on an x86 box? Talk about a waste of time.
I love Linux/FreeBSD because I can tinker with them til my heart’s content, and that’s something that I don’t get with any flavor of Windows.
However, when it comes to applications and actually doing stuff with my computer(s), except for the little weather applet in Gnome, I’ve never fired up an application (and I’m talking desktop here) in Linux and said “Damn, you know … I REALLY wish I had this in Windows.”
For that reason, I don’t (yet) take Linux/FreeBSD seriously as a desktop OS. I would imagine the ony way that is going to happen is when Linux gets to the point where it can at least do everything for me that Windows currently does, and preferably more.
I really don’t like Microsoft anymore than the next guy, but I just can’t justify switching to *nix for ‘political’ reasons and only being able to do half the stuff with my computer that I currently do now. I’m not saying that Linux is this limited for everyone, but it just happens to be limited in the genre of apps that I use most often (especially audio editing/music creation), so what do I do? Buy a Mac? Anyone else have $1,000+ lying around?
(BTW: I know that Windows does have apps similar to the weather applet, but I’m not aware of one that doesn’t come pre-loaded with scumware.)
…is the heat given off by the friction of hundreds of thousands of new volunteer quality assurance testers now participating in our grand experiment.
Two years ago, you never heard any real comparisons between linux and windows on the desktop because they were, literally, incomperable. Now, though, you do.
Yes, linux is still worse, for now; but demonstrably, linux’s rate of change is far higher. Desktop linux is much less worse now than it was two years ago, and windows is far less better. Plot the curves.
I, too wish that the commercial distros would wake up and build what we all want, but, they are really all quite small companies and are correctly focused on the lowest-hanging profit “fruit”. Hopefully they’ll get around to it, but if not, someone non-commercial will eventually do it. Maybe even me, if a particular lack pisses me off enough at a given moment in time.
Just remember: in linux, there are no deadlines. No stockholders, no quartely reports, no “burn rate”. Commercial time does not apply. The codebase isn’t going anywhere. Just a bunch of geeks seeing what we can make the gizmo do.
Linux is a giant, messy, sprawling, loud, complex, scary, dangerous metropolis; Windows is a small, contained, quiet, simple, safe retirement community. There is a time and a place for each.
That pretty much sums it up.. 🙂
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http://directfb.org/
http://www.fresco.org/
http://www.8ung.at/spblinux/
http://byzgl.sourceforge.net/
http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/
http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/
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if you feel guilty on windows, then try linux.
yet, i am not feel guilty,
when/if ms go more non-tech&non-future-or-more-corrupted,
then, i will just look around, maybe 5 years?!..
i am using win98se, ie6.0(sp1).
current computing can’t be take me to the end of the universe.
feel future, see universe, bioelectronics…
Long ago there are many that laugh and say many bad things on Microsoft especially Unix pros. But today, Microsoft just leave others in dust. Yeah… Unix still rule the server but for how long?
Now, GNU/Linux got the same treatment such as the word ” *BSD is better, BeOS is better etc…etc “. Maybe this is true in some way but the rality is that, the number of GNU/Linux user just escalating and the quality of its application getting better. When I first switch, the GUI is just very bad compared to Windows but not today.
I strongly believed Linux will keep on improving and getting better. As for other alt. OS, just keep your good work so that we have choices, and if any of this can prove itself as a better alternative to Windows, Linux, Solaris, QNX or whatever existing OS, no doubt it will become the no 1. The sure thing is that troll and big mouth will not contribute to this.
Perfect example of how the geeks don’t get it. The whole point of the OS, for the average user, is to run the applications that they want to run. If the OS won’t run those applications, then the OS is just a curiosity, a toy for geeks.
Most people use software that just isn’t available for Linux: Quickbooks, Peachtree, Viseo, Project, Home Business Attorny, TurboTax, any number of games, all sorts of propritary software, and on and on.
Linux advocates speak about OpenOffice as if end users *only* run office applications. That is far from the truth.
The idea that desktops would use Linux if they only knew about Linux is bunk. I know lots of desktop users who know about Linux, but simply prefer Windows.
I use Linux myself, and I wish that Linux could compete. But so far, Linux is not ready for prime-time.
I’ve been using Linux for several years now, first with Caldera 2.4. I was able to use it for everything except accounting and taxes. The word processors were klutzy, the choices were excessive for someone mainly interested in doing something productive and there was no card publisher. I had to use a dual-boot (Linux and Windows 95) to have the full capabilities I wanted.
Now I’m using Lycoris. Updates are a snap with the Update Wizard. I bought the Productivity Pak and it installed with almost no input from me. I also bought Kapital and am using TaxAct (an online tax system) for accounting and tax services. I can actually fo more and more efficiently with this distro without bothering with the “nuts and bolts” of the operating system than I can when I work with the office Windows system.
Anyone who’s not seen Lycoris or any recent distribution of linux in the past six months is so far behind the curve that they’re speaking of ancient history. The desktop is here. I set it up for some old foggies who were afraid of computers — how? By giving them the disks and letting them do a “whole disk” install and then letting them run the Update Wizard to get it current. I got them a copy of the Productivity Pak and got them to order a copy of Kapital.
Now they’re off and running without knowing a thing about it. They don’t need to know anything other than it won’t crash on them and they don’t have to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars with upgrades over the next few years.
I’m not saying that XP is not an excellent OS — it certainly is. What I am saying is that linux is an excellent desktop system — if you get a distribution that is not designed for technophiles.
And it is all due to stumbling across Knoppix this week. Love at first sight with the concept of a fully implemented OS and desktop suite running off a bootable CD. Debian SMOKES!
And once I determined that Knoppix was a pain-free graphical Debian installer I completely took the plunge, yanking both HDs from my Win-box, shoving a 12gig HD in their place, executing the knx-hdinstall from the command once Knoppix was up and running, and I was off to the races. Now I have a beautiful liquidx desktop for KDE and a rock solid Debian underpinning driving my old K6-III machine and the increase in performance is just freaking nuts! Not to mention the ease of configuration concerning DHCP, apt-get update/upgrade, etc, etc.
The only thing that lags is indeed OpenOffice, but you know what? I can live with that for the compatibility it provides. XMMS jumps into action on streams, gtv is bare but functions perfectly for what I need it to do, very happy in all areas but for the obvious issues surrounding the learning curve involved with re-educating for install of software packages, compiling, and so forth.
The one main bitch I have is few choices for burning cd-rom. Xcdroast sucks, K3B has some serious quirks, but there is hope yet.
Given Debian’s reputation as hardcore dependable and secure, I would think it smart to partner with the Knoppix guy to make an assload of these graphical installers and get them into the hands of the wanting and needing.
It is very interesting that the most famous distros of this kind are actually Debian based. Just to name a few: Knoppix, DemoLinux, Freeduc,… However, Debian lacks of hardware detection mechanism although it sugested to me that I do not have any PCMCIA cards on my system and kindly asked to remove those unneeded modules
Debian rocks! Now I am supposed to say something about Lin vs. Win debate but I will not. Just to mention to all those Win lovers, you know that the transition direction is Win to Lin, not the other way.
Never ceases to amaze me how many times this same flamewar erupts everytime it does.
Linux’s greatest flaw: The infighting and elitism.
Its next greatest flaw: The fragmentation and non-standardness.
Its remaining flaws: Piss poor quality for *AVERAGE USER* apps. And yes, by apps I’m lumping games in too, since an application is merely something you do with a computer to get something done.
About the only thing that’s worth much as far as internet is Mozilla/Phoenix, both of which also exist on Windows.
All of the existing IM programs suck huge amounts of ass in both look and function.
For those of us who need SFTP, there’s not even close to a decent GUI based one. Compare Kbear to oh… say… SecureFX and you’ll quickly realize SecureFX is by far the best of them.
Happen to be an avid mudder? Forget it. Windows still holds the crown here, although Kmuddy is making huge leaps in this area. ( If you have no idea what any of this just meant, that’s just truly pathetic and indicative of the current crowd of Linux users ).
Games? Please. You’ll say to use Wine/WineX…. um. No. Emulation isn’t the way to do things. Even Commodore figured this out back in the day. If you want Linux gaming to be taken seriously, you MUST get game companies to write native versions alongside the Windows ones. And once you’ve managed to get this to happen, you’ll see Linux take a sharp rise in market share.
Then you have all of the miscellanous quibbles in the remainder of the GUI and such. It’s an absolute pain to get much of anything done since most of the time the windows “forget” how big you wanted them, where you wanted them on the screen, what you wanted to have opened upon opening it again later. Most of this sort of thing can be easily fixed if you have someone with the proper perspective doing the work – and NOT tatgetting said work to a gang of geeks with engineering degrees.
Installation – need I say more? Having used WinXP since it came out in October of 2001 I’ve NEVER had to use the CLI for anything. This isn’t true for Linux. The CLI is all to common for installing programs. “./configure ; make ; make install” sorry, but no. Leave that to the programmers. Dependencies? Sorry, but none of that makes the slightest bit of sense. ProgA depends on libraries found in ProgB. ProgB can’t be updated because it relies on libraries found in ProgA. Or you need some obscure library you’ve never heard of and when you go to get it, it needs 10 other obscure libraries, which in turn require you to update 75% of your other libraries……
Someone mentioned DLL hell? Never had that problem, never heard of anyone who uses Windows that has. Only time I see that comment made is for those who use Linux and are running Wine and trying to find Windows DLLs to make their emulators work. Oh… the irony.
Anyway, I’ve rambled and ranted enough. I’m surely going to be labeled a troll, so I’ll beat you all to it! I’m a troll! Nyah! Except… wait…. all the “trolls” here seem to be the ones with the brains enough to recognize TRUTH
I’ve tried a lot of Linux distributions (Mandrake, Debian, Redhat, DesktopLX, Virtual Linux etc) but I’ve never seen a compiler with a GUI. Maybe I wasn’t looking hard enough.