MacObserver editor Bryan Chaffin said that even though a new agreement between the two companies is improbable, Microsoft still has incentive to continue developing Office for Mac. Read it at NewsFactor. Update: On other Apple news, Mac OS X Server 10.2.5 has been released via Software Update.
Does Apple Still Need Microsoft?
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
Wouldn’t it be great if Apple just said “to heck with you” to MS and went with Open Office or Star Office? It would surely bring more credibility to the open source movement and maybe eventually people would start using it on x86 instead of buying or pirating office. I mean pirating is what most people do IMO, but what a hassle some times. I mean you gotta find the right file.. download it.. make sure it’s complete.. virus scan.. blah blah.. ya know.. where as Open Office is free and easy to get.
Apple needs Microsoft more than Microsoft needs Apple. Microsoft doesnt make that much off of Office v.X and besides no one seriously uses a mac computer for anything productive so I think it would be a good Idea for MS to go ahead and cut the cord and finally kill off Apple.
Seriously, I can only imagine how wonderful an Apple-customized version of OpenOffice could be. MS Office for OS X is great. But Apple has played the Open Source game really well. They would not have had OS X without Open Source. Ditto with Safari. Ditto with their X11 Server. Ditto with Apache. I wouldn’t be surprised if Apple note only customized Open Office, but were able to make money off of it by selling it in a retail boxed version. I’m not sure if they make any money off of Office. Not even indirectly – it’s not like MS Office is a killer app that will make people switch from the PC platform. It’s something people just expect as par for the course. So, an iOffice type thing might be better for Apple than just having MS Office as they could profit from it.
Which is it? Will Office have open XML file formats that allow any app to open and edit Office files without conversion glitches? Lots of MS defenders were in here a week or so ago, saying yes this is coming. Because if it is, then your proposal that MS kill Apple by killing mac Office wouldn’t work. Just curious.
Seth, what a ridiculous troll. Apple has gone off in a completely different direction. Apple and Microsoft are not competing head-to-head. There is no Microsoft vs. Apple anymore anyway. And your remark about not being able to be productive on Macs is absurd. Why post at all if yoiu are going to post garbage??
Niether really needs the other now. However, developing for the Mac and having a healthy Apple keeps the anti-trust people off Microsoft’s back. And, from Apple’s point of view, it would not hurt to have Microsoft products for Mac. If Microsoft can make money from it, why not?
Microsoft needs Apple more than Apple needs Microsoft. Apple should stop giving Microsoft free ideas to exploit and besides no one seriously thinks of Windows as a better OS. They just use it because its there. So I think it would be a good Idea for Apple to go ahead and cut the cord and finally kill off Microsoft.
No one uses a mac computer for anything productive? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?!!!
MAC users _ONLY_ use their macs for doing productive things.
ARE YOU F*CKIN’ CRAZY?
OMG
Do you think that mac users sit around in fornt of their G3 or whatever and play Quake3 all day?
I think that buying Word Perfect would be a better idea. It is still a fantasic word processor! Corel needs to raise some cash, they might do it. That would be a way that they could offer a commercial quality word processor. Quatro pro and Paradox!!!
Go to your room for the rest of your life!
Dan, that is precisely what I was thinking. Bringing back a Mac-native WordPerfect would solve everything right there. Obviously, since I’m not a worm inside Apple, I don’t know how far along they might be in developing a Word replacement, but why bother when the highly-respected WordPerfect could be used instead? I use WP10 as a freelance writer, and virtually all of my clients need docs in Word format. There has yet to be a problem (I also have Word 2000, so I can try everything before I send/email it off). True, I don’t use a lot of heavy graphics, but WP 10 is about as good as it gets for interoperability (and yes, I also use StarOffice 6–that’s great, too, but to a writer like me, the “reveal codes” feature in WP is just waaaay to great to get rid of).
seth, I have three (3) words for you… Digital Rights Management.
enjoy your Windows box while you can. : P
I seriously question the assertion that apple needs MS.
The sales of MS’s latest office product for the MAC pretty much demonstrates that.
Apple would be wise to join sun in trying to dismantle MS’s monopoly in the office segment by supporting Star office or some other alternative to MS. The best scenario would consists of setting up some kind of offic documents standards that sun and apple (or third part vendors) could produce office suites to. Is there one already? That way you create a competitive office environment and you alienate MS. Yes i know this is hard and yes i know that apple office products only account for a small percentage of the total but its a start.
Still, i just don’t see MS office as a life and death product for apple anymore. I think the market is getting fed up of MS’s prices and licensing practices in regards to office.
Apple should not trust
Apple needs Microsoft more than Microsoft needs Apple. Microsoft doesnt make that much off of Office v.X and besides no one seriously uses a mac computer for anything productive so I think it would be a good Idea for MS to go ahead and cut the cord and finally kill off Apple.
First of all, Apple does not need Microsoft, most mac users don’t need microsoft office, there only commercial Mac Program. Microsoft however, does make allot of money with there $400 Mac Office (as was stated in the article, If you even bothered to read it). And to say that “no one uses a mac computer for anything productive” is plain retarded.
Apple needs Microsoft more than Microsoft needs Apple. Microsoft doesnt make that much off of Office v.X and besides no one seriously uses a mac computer for anything productive so I think it would be a good Idea for MS to go ahead and cut the cord and finally kill off Apple.
First of all, Apple does not need Microsoft, most mac users don’t need microsoft office, there only commercial Mac Program. Microsoft however, does make allot of money with there $400 Mac Office (as was stated in the article, If you even bothered to read it). And to say that “no one uses a mac computer for anything productive” is plain retarded.
Speaking of DRM…
http://www.oscast.com/stories/storyReader$291“>Will
(Since Eugenia refuses to post any news about Apple’s involvement with Universal, perhaps it’s necessary that we do it here. Maybe its just too Pro-Apple for her…)
Maybe Apple should go ahead and adopt OpenOffice and let MS do away with Office for Mac. Guaranteed Apple would be dead in a year, OpenOffice sucks, it is nowhere near Microsoft Office level in terms of productivity. Open Source software does not innovate and it is not the save all that everyone makes it out to me. Find me one company that totally relies on total Open Source software in order to make a profit, it doesnt happen and dont tell me Apple because iTunes, Aqua and most of Apples apps are closed source. You cant make money off of free. Besides if I write an app, it is my idea, I get paid for my ideas I will not give them away for some idiot to try to steal em and make money off of it.
” besides no one seriously thinks of Windows as a better OS”
Windows is a much better OS than Mac OS X, Im not locked into a proprietary expensive as hell platform and I have industry support. Why do I need an OS just because it is pretty? Mac OS X = Obsolete 50 yr old Operating system. UNIX sucks, there is nothing innovative about UNIX, at least with Linux you have developers that are trying to do something great. UNIX has been hacked and patched so much, it has destroyed the integrity of the Operating System. The only reason why Mac users hate Microsoft Windows is that you have to register the software, well guess what, with Mac OS X you are only supposed to install it on one machine, read your End User agreement. Open Source will save Apple, baah Open Source will finish killing Apple. Hey guys guess what we have over 90% of the marketshare, Apple will never hope in its wildest dreams to ever see that kind of volume. Without MS, Apple would be dead and buried and Appleforevers name would be Windowsforever.
Umm. Surely the thing is that if a market exists for MS Office, apple producing it’s own iOffice will encourage MS to update it’s own offering rather than just keep selling some dodgy old version. Not that that matters ‘ cos they all do the same ol’ stuff.
And if MS stomps off in a huff, well at least it doesn’t get to imply that the reason they aren’t updating office is that OsX is in some way inferior in winXP and can’t cope with the latest whizz-bang things offered in Office XPi, or whatever it’s called.
Finally, whoever said apple is no longer microsoft’s competitor is dead right (IMO) I think Steve sees Apple as SunJnr, with a dash of Sony added in, and I think pretty soon Sun will see Apple that way too…
Really people, grow up and stop bashing Eugenia. She’s running this website how she wants to run it and I think she’s doing a damn good job. She doesn’t appear to be biased to one side or the other in my opinion, and frankly, I think you guys are just making up excuses to bitch and moan.
Shut. Up.
Some things are not as good as MS office, but for most things OpenOffice is great.
I do think Apple Needs Microsoft, because it’s less to do with techncal and more to do with compatability.
Many non technical People want to have the same applications that they have at work, even if they are using different OSes.
“Find me one company that totally relies on total Open Source software in order to make a profit”
Seth: MySQL AB the owner of the database MySQL. Seth you are full of shit!
Thank you Stephen.
Hippy, your ” Now watch…” comment will be moderated down simply because it is completely off topic, sarcastic and flamatory, with no real substance.
As for the Universal news, these are nothing but rumors, nothing solid yet, plus it is not exactly OS-related.
Hey guys guess what we have over 90% of the marketshare
Anyone who starts talking about “you” and “we” is way too attached and in serious troll territory. If you want to let your self-esteem get caught up in what computer you use feel free, but you’re not adding anything to the discussion.
Stop trying to disguise your lack of intelligence with verbosity. You may think writing paragraph upon paragraph of unsubstantiated assertions will somehow detract from the fact that your debating skills are on par with a 10 year old’s. But, we can see right through you – here’s a hint: Windows isn’t attached to your balls. You don’t have to defend it like it is.
Windows XP is a great operating system. OS X is a great operating system. Many linux distributions are very good operating systems. Different strokes for different folks. I happen to use all 3. Windows for gaming. Linux and OS X for my development work and day to day needs.
Using your logic, civilization should dispose of the wheel because it is ancient technology. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. If it is, then by all means fix it – this is why Apple and OpenSource make a great alliance. Open Source software usually is built on solid foundations, but the details aren’t refined. Apple is the greatest at attention to details, and their previous endeavours at refining Open Source software and re-branding these as their own variations is proof positive of this.
Seth said
“Mac OS X = Obsolete 50 yr old Operating system. UNIX sucks, there is nothing innovative about UNIX, at least with Linux you have developers that are trying to do something great. UNIX has been hacked and patched so much, it has destroyed the integrity of the Operating System.”
Actually I don’t think that any current, commercial OS can make a claim to be completely modern. All of them are built on what came before. True Mac OS X is built on top of a UNIX variant. But Window NT/2000/XP has many of its roots in VMS which is equally ancient. To be fair Lunix is a clean room version of UNIX
The software industry has always built on top of what has come before. If not using actual code, then by using design concepts. Indeed most of what we have today would not be possible if developers did not borrow from the past.
Just because something is newer doesn’t mean it is better. Mac OSs 1 through 9 are dead. So are all the various versions of DOS, and Windows 95/98/me. They were all newer than VMS or UNIX.
Just because something is old doesn’t mean it is obsolete. Rather it could mean that is so good nothing since has been able to displace it.
Once open source takes off on the desktop, all the proprietary and closed formats lose force. Instead there will be open formats that apple can embrace. Also, all those open source and Linux apps can be ported to the mac without any difficulty. So the great compatibility problem windows creates for the mac – WON’T EXIST.
I keep pointing this out to the mac haters like Seth and Doehnert. Nobody has explained how I’m wrong yet.
I should have checked this before my previous post. But being over 50 myself, I am not as fast as I used to be.
Seth Said “Mac OS X = Obsolete 50 yr old Operating system.”
Actually UNIX was first developed in 1969. Unless my math skills have completely escaped me, that would make UNIX only 34 year old. For the record VMS we introduced by DEC in 1979. So I guess it isn’t quite as ancient as as UNIX.
Don
” Once open source takes off on the desktop, all the proprietary and closed formats lose force. Instead there will be open formats that apple can embrace. Also, all those open source and Linux apps can be ported to the mac without any difficulty. So the great compatibility problem windows creates for the mac – WON’T EXIST. ”
Open source will never ” take off ” on the desktop. Lack of control is the Open Source Movements main shortcoming. Why do you think Linux has not captured any real marketshare in computing at all? There are 20 different Linux distributions and 20 different ways of doing things, I mean look at those morons they cannot even agree on any kind of standard from the desktop to the installation programs. I mean cmon, who needs dozens of different desktops? GNOME, KDE, WindowMaker, AfterStep, BlackBox. Thats what keeps commercial companies from adopting Linux and UNIX. As for Mac OS X at least they have set standards and they enforce those standards. I do not see why they even created X11 if I used a Mac there are no UNIX apps that I need or even want to run. UNIX apps are cheap knockoff imitations of commercial software and I have not even seen one that was of equal or greater value than any commercial application. I will keep buying Adobe, MS Office and SQLServer as long as they are around thank you because I may spend money on the apps and services but at least I know I have well tested quality software. Windows and Microsoft is the de-facto standard in computing today, They make the best product. Despite what anybody says, the consumers let Windows dominate the industry. Windows is so good everybody bought it and Windows took off, you cannot blame MS for that, But you know what I would rather have 20,000 Microsoft engineers build a product than 1 million hackers working on something and they cant even decide what toilet paper they want to buy, but it is better to have MS on your side than against you. But until Linux community can stop all their infighting and decide on common standards, they will eventually die off. Apple’s biggest mistake will be if it trys to cater to the Open Source fanatics like it has been doing. There is no future in Open Source.
You are right that open source, to a large degree is a ripoff of commercial software. But MS is a ripoff and copy too. MS won not because it was better, but because it was cheaper and good enough. Well, this principle is going to bite MS’s behind because Linux is getting very, very close to good enough and it is cheaper than MS’s overpriced Office and XP. Linux and open office provide 90 percent of what they provide, what they don’t provide doesn’t matter, and they are way cheaper. Also, no DRM on the way.
The only thing left MS has is “compatibility,” i.e, everything runs on it. Maybe this will prove to be invincible advantage but you don’t know that is the case. Only time will tell
First, making a deal to bring back Word Perfect is fine, but not buying it. Apple has an office suite already. Secondly, Apple is not ready to stand on its own feet as everyone thinks, it NEEDS office for credibility. If Apple moves ahead and buys Universal, and diversifies itself into a Baby-Sony(like it should!) then it will be able to make bolder moves in the computer industry, and still have revenue when MS screws Apple back… It won’t be the first attempt that MsS has had at taking out competition, and honestly, MS has the size if they so wanted, they only hold back due to antitrust worries…
Apple needs to diversify with Universal and maybe even Pixar(a merdger).
“UNIX apps are cheap knockoff imitations of commercial software and I have not even seen one that was of equal or greater value than any commercial application.”
Umm… do you mean opensource apps?
“There are 20 different Linux distributions and 20 different ways of doing things”
There are a lot more than that.
“Thats what keeps commercial companies from adopting Linux and UNIX”
You should remove UNIX from that sentance, UNIX does have commerical software. A lot of it tends to be much more expensive and high end software then what you are talking about. Sure, UNIX doesn’t ahve your faviorite windows gaame but it has Maya and lots of cool software. (sarcasm) Do you want me to write you a list? (end sarcasm)
” I do not see why they even created X11 if I used a Mac there are no UNIX apps that I need or even want to run”
Just because you don’t use something doesn’t mean that it is not usefull.
“will keep buying Adobe, MS Office and SQLServer …”
Yeah, because there aren’t any good databases for Unix right? There all cheap knock offs of microsoft products right? (that was also sarcasm)
“Windows and Microsoft is the de-facto standard in computing today”
In desktop computing, yes. In all computing, no.
“They make the best product”
LMAO.
“let Windows dominate the industry”
Right, because monoploies create innovation, right?
First off, I think Eugenia is doing a great job with this site. I’ve seen trashing/praising across every platform equally. Negative Windows/Apple/RedHat, positive Windows/Apple/RedHat. Anyone who says she is biased is pulling things out of context.
But Second,
Eugenia As for the Universal news, these are nothing but rumors, nothing solid yet, plus it is not exactly OS-related.
While I fully support Eugenia’s decision to post or not-post certain stories, the above line is not fully enforced at all times. There have been plenty of rumors posted here (Hi Nick @ Think Secret) and plenty of non-OS related content. The latter has been defended by Eugenia herself on several occasions.
Really though, keep up the good though, Eugenia
Yes, Nick only posts stuff when he is sure that what his sources are right. And most of the times I also double check, with MY sources, his news before I post a rumor.
In this case, neither me or Nick have any sources regarding the Universal deal, therefore I chose not to report on this before a press release comes out.
MS has no reason to Fear the DoJ and/or to a lesser extent the EU. they rely too much on their software to impose too many restrictions. we all know that story.
-Kevin
But another poster had a very good point. If Apple, Sun, IBM, Red Hat, Open Office, Corel, PalmOS and all of those people with vested financial interest in unseating MS can agree on a transparent standard for text and spreadsheet documents which is implemented as the default output in all of the major 3rd and 2nd party office suites, there would be a chance that it would need to be taken seriously by technology officers in most corporations. And while file format control is beneficial for the main and niche leaders, most competitors in the office space have yet to carve any niche, let alone mount a real credible threat.
Does Apple need Microsoft? Not really: MS Word for the Macintosh has about as good file compatibility with MS Word for Windows as Star Office does. Most PC users don’t even realize a Mac verion of Office exists, so that isn’t factoring into their decisions. If Apple, on the other hand, spearheaded an alternative to MS Office they would not only win over mindspace as a champion alternative to MS and if successful a rather large market chunk of OS sales, but they also stand to make a rather large pile of money selling software to their OS users. 400 dollars per user has to look awfully tempting.
-C
Fair enough…
besides everyone and their mother already had this story posted.
there is nothing innovative about UNIX
perhaps, but the beauty of UNIX is that everything is a file or a process. Its a system built on the most simple concepts, like the bit, to design the most secure, stable and efficient OS. I would say it has come a long way. And I think Linux, being another form of UNIX, will show the world just how much innovation is left on that old system.
Just because something is old doesn’t mean you throw it out. Experience often counts for a lot more than knowledge. And UNIX has a lot of both.
Why is it that if you say apple needs ms more than ms needs apple its trolling but the 10 people saying ms needs apple aren’t trolling? MS makes a lot of money from office on mac, but I’m guessing it doesn’t even compare with their other revenue streams.
I’d also like to know why it’s not trolling to say apple is better but if I said xp beats os x hands down its trolling?
Lastly why does everyone assume apple can make a better office suite then ms? Lets see ms has been making them for over a decade and moved up from a nobody in the market to the undisputed king. Apple has made works. Quit having blind faith in apple while calling ms users sheep.
” Right, because monoploies create innovation, right? ”
They must create innovation because everyone is trying to make a copy of their product. ie Evolution, MONO and many many more.
(Ignore my above post … something happened in my word processor)
Seth, it obvious you want to take part in the discussions here and its nice that you stand by you opinions, it shows you have convictions. However, you do not have a very well informed opinion, which makes your points lose standing ground when placed against those of your opposition. Microsoft is not very innovative these days … they were when they started which helped them gain their market share … however , most of their ideas today are not revolutionary but merely evolutionary. They do things that have been done by someone else. The difference is most people are not informed about those innovations because they were not in Microsoft’s or any other big companies product in the first place. As for your earlier comments on letting Apple die off, they have 5 billion dollars in the bank … it is highly unlikely that they will just die.
Something doesn’t have to be innovative to copy it. It can be standard or derivative. But expensive. So you copy and give away for free.
A few important points:
– RedHat is a company that makes profit 100% off of open source. Wether a company makes profit off of only open source software is imaterial anyway. Only the freaky zelot types actually believe that ALL software should be free or open source.
– A recent study released a few days ago shows open source web servers (primarily Apache) have more then TWO THIRDS of the web server market for the entire world. (study included well over 40,000,000 web servers.)
– Open source OSes have been growing in install base by hundreds of percentage points per year for a little while now.
– More and more major technology corporations are providing workstation, server, and even complete end-to-end enterprise solutions based on open source software.
All the facts point to open source being on the way up, and VERY far from stagnating or going away.
I have very well informed decisions. I have used a Mac and I have used Unix, yes I think they suck. Microsoft has a very good lineup of products and they do a very good job and yes I have found personally, I can trust Microsoft, I like Microsofts Ideas and their INNOVATIONS. Apple is more evolutionary, look at their product Line, What is innovative about that? As for Mac OS X all they did was slap a pretty paint job on Mach and NeXTStep a dead OS and tried to pass it off as new. But hey, yes the old Mac OS was crap so Mach was a step up but not an innovation. Where is Apples .NET, their Office Suite used by Billions? Where is their 64bit server OS? 64Bit Workstation OS? Their 64Bit Database? Apple is a niche and niches die. There is no room in computing for niche players. If Apple wants to live, it better do what Bill wants and quit taking cheap shots at MS. Never once on Microsofts site do I see MS let anyone downplay the Mac OS, They do not let anyone call the Mac OS crap, Yet Apple takes baseless cheap shots at Microsofts lineup. We all see who the bigger man is. Im not against the Mac OS, Im sure its a fine system. I am against Apple and its business practices.
Seth, these guys were found by the U.S. Supreme court to have violated the antitrust law (well, technically, they turned down reviewing the appeals court ruling on this score).
By the way, if MS had any claim that Apple’s statements about windows glitches and problems were false, they could have taken legal action or asked the FTC to declare the ads a lie. But this didn’t happen. Apple can say whatever it wants if its true. MS never claimed it wasn’t to any court or gov’t agency, wonder why?
They must create innovation because everyone is trying to make a copy of their product. ie Evolution, MONO and many many more.
So we’re knocking Mono now? That is ridiculous. That is like me saying, MS totally copied the C compiler off UNIX. I don’t see why MS has to make such knockoffs. C on Windows? No innovation.
I believe Apple no longer has need of Microsoft.
The quality of their software is leaps and bounds ahead of them.
I’m a pc user, btw.
” By the way, if MS had any claim that Apple’s statements about windows glitches and problems were false, they could have taken legal action or asked the FTC to declare the ads a lie. But this didn’t happen. Apple can say whatever it wants if its true. MS never claimed it wasn’t to any court or gov’t agency, wonder why? ”
Because A:) everyone knows the switcher ads are false, you may have 3 that I found that could be true. B) why take the time and hire lawyers and waste money. Besides the switch ads are uneffective, and just so ridiculous it shows 2 things 1: How bitter Apple is because it lost the desktop wars, 2: How incredibly moronic and what big fat liars Mac users are.
seth you suck! 😉
anyway, all flames aside, i’m running a variety of redhat/freebsd servers and workstations at the apartment, not to mention a decstation off in the corner running mandrake…..and i even have a couple of xp machines, for games and the occassional MS app.
that said…i love my new powerbook.
seth, variety is the spice of life.
you should venture out once in a while.
Sun has already submitted the OOo/SO6 XML format to one of the standards bodies – it is getting some support there from Corel so maybe WP will support it in future as its native format.
OOo is of cousse already an option on OSX as it OOo has already ported it to run under X11 there. I believe that the OOo hackers are already working on a native aqua port so it will come to OSX without Apple having to lift a finger.
I hate to be provoked into replying to the child troll seth. But there is a very good survey on the growth in use of the Linux desktop which was hosted on the HP website (I think they paid for it). If one reads it carefully avoiding IDC’s obfuscations, it became clear from the figures that desktop usage of Linux was doubling every year. The only conclusion that one can draw is that desktop Linux has now entered an exponential growth phase. If it can maintain that exponential growth then it will be the dominant desktop operating by 2008 – Hello brave GNU world.
Wha…? How… how could anyone… be so…
HELLO! REALITY HERE! KNOCKING ON YOUR THICK SKULL!
If your going to start just making stuff up to make your point, your not doing yourself any favors you know. Eh, why even bother. Its not like anyone actually believes you anyway, so there is no need to set the facts straight.
Been fun. Cheers!
Some well know MS innovations:
1) TCP/IP stack…mmm scatch that…includes CODE from BSD which is arguably open source ( so the rumour has it), at the very least, an after thought
2) Windows Explorer (GUI)…mmm scatch that, borrowed from Mac who I believe borrowed it from a Unix-based technology
3) Internet Exporlorer…mmm, scratch it. Borrowed from Netscape
4) IIS…scratch it…rough concepts borrowed from Apache, et al
5) MS-SQL….nah, scatch that, SQL is borrowed
And the list goes on and on….
Now I’m not a philosopher, but I believe there are varying schools on thought about technology and innovation…one schools claims that inventions are a matter of GENIUS, others claim that technological invention is imminent given the right conditions. In this sense, who cares, who invented, for example, a GUI, it would have come to pass anyways.
…That said, sure Open Office, for example, is a *clone*. It is supposed to be a drop in replacement which if it is true that 90% of Office users use 10% of the features, it has probably succeeded.
Now take the old utility telnet. SSH was invented as a secure drop in replacement and was under GPL. SSH is one of the most useful utilities ever invented for anyone who administratres “Unix” systems. Yes, the source was later closed, and an Open Source fork was created. SSH has replaced telnet, rlogin, rcp, ftp, rsh — effectively the basic Unix network toolkit — I would say that this is innovation.
Now, the example of KDE (or GNOME for that matter). Sure they are similar in look to Windows Explorer, perhaps even started out as a clone. Yet, in terms of innovation, I would say that Windows as a GUI now has a deficit to KDE or GNOME and X combo. There are just more useful Windowing features that don’t exist natively in Windows (to my knowledge). Choose how many times to click an icon, mouse focus…just more detail.
5)
Just one question: do you have a single fact to back up what you say? Spouting out “this sucks” and “that sucks” doesn’t really cut it, now does it? NeXT died because of marketing, not the quality that led to its incorporation into OSX. No one, other than techies, really even knows what the hell NeXTStep/OpenStep were, let alone that parts of them are behind OSX–Apple didn’t shell out a ton of money during times of trouble to snap up an OS no one really knew existed…they did it because of the quality and innovation behind it.
And you claim that Apple is less revolutionary than MS? On what, may I inquire, do you base that?? On the Newton? Keynote? Cube? Brand-new OSX? The hot-selling IMac? Please do think before you speak, and back up your claims a little better. If you don’t like something, fine, but don’t pretend to know more than you really do.
What did I make up? nothing. Hey you people want to believe in a distorted reality thats your privilege and your right, but over 90% of us know the truth
” I hate to be provoked into replying to the child troll seth. But there is a very good survey on the growth in use of the Linux desktop which was hosted on the HP website (I think they paid for it). If one reads it carefully avoiding IDC’s obfuscations, it became clear from the figures that desktop usage of Linux was doubling every year. The only conclusion that one can draw is that desktop Linux has now entered an exponential growth phase. If it can maintain that exponential growth then it will be the dominant desktop operating by 2008 – Hello brave GNU world. ”
Dont you mean -Hello dead GNU world.
Honestly. It resumes. It does sane threading. It’s sweet as hell. It also lets me drop to whereever with any file I drop, as opposed to Safari.
And don’t get me started on Mozilla.
I keep IE for the download manager- it was the only way I could get a few linux isos- the downloads kept bombing out on me in other browsers. 😐
That aside…. lesseee. …. X Server, OpenOffice.Org, Mail.app, various text editors that do everything I need except HTML conversion (oooo, look- Appleworks does THAT….), Apache…. huh. Looks like aside from that little download manager thing, I don’t use ANY Microsoft software.
Neat.
If MicroSoft were to leave the Mac world the opportunity for Apple or a smaller company to step in and grow would increase tenfold. Also with the introduction of the 64 bit cpu from IBM, the great software that can be written on the Mac would also increase tenfold, Apple with the introduction of Safari has shown what can be done if only you have the will. IE is dead on the Mac.
that whole 90% of us knowing which is better is a load of crap.
if you are counting sheep and lemmings, i guess your 90% figure holds, but if you want to lump yourself in with them…that’s your choice…i suppose.
on the other hand, if you look at some of the most skilled technical people, you will find many are multiplatform proficient. highly skilled, and intelligent, this group has a larger foundation, and use techniques learned on one platform, and apply it to another.
i would say a large percentage of this group know a helluva lot more about windows then you do.
what it comes down to is that I don’t need YOU to tell ME that windows is a great platform.
i already know that…and I use windows when it’s to my advantage.
in the end, your bellowing up and down these forums about how one company is king….it just makes me doubt that your skill set matches your mouth.
even if your skills matched the size of your pie hole, i imagine you would be a real dick head to work with.
Getting a little ahead of yourself arent you buddy.
If MicroSoft were to leave the Mac world the opportunity for Apple or a smaller company to step in and grow would increase tenfold…..
All Microsoft has to do is change its file format. Microsoft does not have to follow standards, If Apple wishes to stay compatible with the Windows world it cannot be pushing Microsoft away. And Microsoft is so permanately entrenched in the enterprise and desktop markets that it will be hard if not impossible for Open Office in its current state to break that hold. OpenOffice may be mature for us Linux users but I wouldnt suggest it for a casual user.
Also with the introduction of the 64 bit cpu from IBM, the great software that can be written on the Mac would also increase tenfold, Apple with the introduction of Safari has shown what can be done if only you have the will. IE is dead on the Mac…….
Apple will not be introducing a 64 Bit desktop for awhile, going 64 bit on a desktop or a Laptop is not prudent nor is it a wise choice, with 99.9 percent of users on a 32 bit system, most companies will not support 2 seperate code bases for the same program for a platform that has less than 5 % of the market. It doesnt make business sense to do so.
Apple has to handle the situation with MS with care, it cannot go off the bend flip off Bill Gates and Co. and say F-U, because Microsoft can make life very difficult for them. Give OpenOffice another year and then it will be ready and Apple can go ahead and do what it wishes.
Eugenia: Can you explain to me how you determine who gets moderated or not? I mean seth is sitting here making BS claims and flame and trolling yet you mod the people who are making BS claims towards the site or you. This is a honest question, I’m just wondering, if your gonna mod people you might as well take everybody who is here to start flame wars and make this look like a preschool.
My opinion on this Article is that it is very accurate, I don’t have Office X on my expensive Mac. In fact I have no use for it since I don’t do any word processing. Safari is so much easier to use then IE, because of the speed and the easy integration into my system, (it actually likes all mac binaries and file formats). Honestly if anybody here has actually used a higher end Dual G4 you’ll know the quality of OS X and the Apple bundled programs that I’m speaking of.
Seth is just trying to rattle our cages. He obviously knows nothing about Microsoft, Apple, Linux or any form of computing.
I was just informed of your post JBett.
So, to answer your question: I have a life to run, not just OSNews.
I am not going to read and decide upon 400 comments everyday. So yes, I do take down the posts that are offensive to me, osnews, or others. But I won’t log-on and do the tedius database job of moderating everyone that really deseves to get moderated down, because I don’t have the time to do it. I am not getting paid to clean up the sh*t over here.
If you ask me, yes, Seth is a troll of a kind. But if you are really pissed off with him, your best bet is to IGNORE him, instead of waiting everything from me. If you ignore the trolls, they just don’t bother anymore. But all you do, is reply to him. IGNORE him.
Quit having blind faith in apple while calling ms users sheep.
Baaaaah!
You want a good download manager so you use IE’s? Now I am no expert here, but as far as I remember it didn’t even have resume. Honestly, I’ve found that ALL the download managers that “ship” with the browser suck.
The only possible exception could be if you count KGet as comming with Konqueror; however, it isn’t turned on by default.
Either way, I have always found myself using a separate download manager for larger files (K-Get, Flashget, Download Accelerator Plus). You should be warned though, they love to load that stuff down with the spyware so you gotta’ be cautious.
you sound like Mr. Wolfowitz or Rumsfeld, pretty much reactionist and blindfolded
Your statements are pure ideology, you don´t have much knowledge, you just are plain filled up mostly with phrases (of zeros and, I don´t know what else, reminds me of the code base of MS Windows). I guess, you got eaten up by some parasit spam virus which went through your outlook account directly into your blood system and straight to your heart (but you don´t think MS did innovate music and genes and sliced bread, too, right).
PROCLAMATION
Seth is now known as the “Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf” (remember the funny Iraqi Minister of Information?) of OSNews.
Seth al-Sahaaf recommends: “Yes, we will behead you all, Apple suckers”
There are severel yet unconfirmed rumors (mostly syrian sources) that at least one of his dozens Windows XP tatoos lost it´s colors and turned into blueish X. Medical treatment is not possible due to life critical body parts involved.
G
Bah. Then seth and all the replies would disappear into a nice thread we could all ignore. As it is, it pollutes the whole story.
Eugenias right ignore him, all he is spouting is the same crap that is posted here time and time again. The only thing I agreed with him on is some of his views on Open Source software, and yeah its no secret that I think Macs suck, Dont feed into trolls they only get bigger.
He’s just too delicious to ignore: just enough BS to be wrong, but not so much as to appear so =) It’s the stuff politicians are made of. Here is my reply to his various comments, just because the last thing the IT industry needs is people who read comments like his and think they’re correct*. Plus, it’s fun to back a BSer into a corner and see how he tries to wheedle his way out**
Guaranteed Apple would be dead in a year
OMFG!! That’s like SO an innovative statement I haven’t heard over and over for the last 5 years!!!
<belated sarcasm alert>
Open source will never ” take off ” on the desktop.
…later…
[Monopolies] must create innovation because everyone is trying to make a copy of their product. ie Evolution, MONO and many many more.
Well, either OSS is a viable competitor to proprietary software, or it isn’t. Make up your mind.
Microsoft more innovative than Apple??? What did I make up? nothing. Hey you people want to believe in a distorted reality thats your privilege and your right, but over 90% of us know the truth
I guess this guy belongs to the other 10%: http://www.vcnet.com/bms/departments/innovation.shtml
And you claim that Apple is less revolutionary than MS? On what, may I inquire, do you base that?? On the Newton? Keynote? Cube? Brand-new OSX? The hot-selling IMac?
Full marks for TRYING to be sarcastic…. but three of the five Apple products you just mentionned -are- innovative. The other two are merely superior***.
Ahhh.. I love proving people diametrically wrong =)
————————
* Might I point out that others have made quite decent retorts to Seth. I only add to the replies because I’m NSH. My compliments to youse(plural).
** Unfortunately, they usually don’t respond to me. I guess that makes me a bad troll
*** For those who might think I’m being a Mac zealot: note that I’m not implying that the poorly-cooled Cube was/is superior — just innovative.
I quoted you above, attributing the statement to Seth:
And you claim that Apple is less revolutionary than MS? On what, may I inquire, do you base that?? On the Newton? Keynote? Cube? Brand-new OSX? The hot-selling IMac?
Of course it would be foolish of him to say that, because it refutes his point quite well. Good show, and sorry about the confuddlement.
But perhaps things will get better. Apple has been reeling from their codebase transition every bit as much as Microsoft has, and while Linux on the desktop has been getting better Linux is simply not structured to be a desktop operating system. For a desktop user, programs should not be smeared across dozens of directories, as they are in Linux, BSD, and Windows. OSX is nice and overcomes some of the shortcomings of OS9 (Multitasking! My kingdom for true multitasking!) but the underlying operating environment is now out of synch with the goals of the system. The plumbing, as it were, is not optimized.
On the other hand, I could just be a System 7 snob.
Does Apple need Microsoft anymore? More directly, do Apple users need Microsoft products if viable replacements were to be had from Apple? Obviously, “viable replacements” is quite a claim, and therein hinges the truth of the statement. If viable replacements are to be had from Apple, the answer is a resounding no… and changes the equation of computing.
But should we be looking towards Apple to lead us into that future? Or Gnome, KDE, etc? People who visit a site called “OSNews” are probably predisposed, but I think the answer is no. Apple has a proven niche, high-end silky smooth computing, and shows no signs of needing or wanting to return to the poor huddled masses. The Linux GUI crews are doing a great job of hanging plants, laying astroturf, and otherwise making a greenish common out of an intricate warehouse space, but for the forseeable future it will remain a warehouse space. They definitely can and want to lead, but where they lead to not many people want to go. Triangle, Morph, React, et. al are great ideas and fun projects… Will they lead anywhere?
But there are potential champions on the horizon. AmigaOS, for example. Open BeOS, for another. Open BeOS has the opportunity to setup a true commons in a living space rather than a working space. AmigaOS, while not as communal and therefore subject to abuses, also has a chance of dethroning Microsoft in a way that the average person will appreciate. Both of these extract MS from the equation without cutting out Intel/AMD/Via and the hardware most people know and (shudder) love. And both of these systems are developed user-centric from the ground up. With the speed of Open Source, it is likely that AmigaOS4 will be first out the door, putting Amiga into the interesting position of championing a frontal assault on MS and MS standards. If they fail in establishing an accepted standard for file formats, they will fail as a desktop OS. OpenBE won’t have to succeed financially, but they too will have to do something about that file format if they don’t want to be irrelevant.
It’s long since time an Open Standard was agreed upon. Does anyone know of a standards group working toward office file format ubiquity that we can support? Should we form one?
I hate coming to the defense of trolls.
And you claim that Apple is less revolutionary than MS? On what, may I inquire, do you base that?? On the Newton? Keynote? Cube? Brand-new OSX? The hot-selling IMac?
The Cube was brought over from NeXT and had many problems that is why the Cube is not around anymore. Keynote is a powerpoint knock off and it is not better than PowerPoint or even OpenOffice Impress, I put Keynote in the same class as KOffice Presenter
Guaranteed Apple would be dead in a year
OMFG!! That’s like SO an innovative statement I haven’t heard over and over for the last 5 years!!!
He said Apple would be dead in a year if it totally tried to use open source software to replace proprietary software. Which that part is correct it has been discussed before and even Industry bigshots such as Larry Ellison have said alot of Open Source Apps are not on par with proprietary software. If you are going to quote somebody use the whole quote that way it doesnt look like you have something to hide.
[Monopolies] must create innovation because everyone is trying to make a copy of their product. ie Evolution, MONO and many many more.
Well, either OSS is a viable competitor to proprietary software, or it isn’t. Make up your mind.
Right now Open Source software, while great is not a viable solution to proprietary formats at this time, especially these two products. Miguel De Icaza has said that Mono is a work in progress and IMHO when Mono can run all .NET apps, then and only then will it be the #1 contender to the .NET framework, Evolution is not as good or as easy to use as Outlook and that has been said before as well.by many people.
Ahhh.. I love proving people diametrically wrong =)
I do too, go ahead and wipe that egg off your face. You didnt prove anyone wrong. If you had quoted him correctly and put his words exactly the way he wrote them there would have been no retort. While I disagree with 85 % of what Seth said about Open Source software, I do agree that if Apple was to tell Microsoft to keep their product and not to bother with Mac development anymore. That would be suicide, because no Open Source software is 100% ready.
But if you give it 2-3 more years than yes it might be and Apple can cut off microsoft whenever they want. And I notice the only ones that got mad at him are Mac users. You see the thing is not all of us follow Steve Jobs like good little indians like you guys do. Good Grief Im in the industry and all he did was repeat what other people have said, and isnt America a great place you can disagree with him and not get shot, and you guys can respond with untruthful garbage and not be ridiculed either.
@RJDohnert The Cube was brought over from NeXT and had many problems that is why the Cube is not around anymore.
Wrong, just because they are both Cubes does not mean they are the same computer. What made the Cube (Apple’s) innovative was the slot loading CD/DVD, they way the user accessed the inside (push pull handle that makes the entire insides slide out), the other innovation was that Apple’s Cube is FANLESS!
@RJDohnertKeynote is a powerpoint knock off and it is not better than PowerPoint or even OpenOffice Impress, I put Keynote in the same class as KOffice Presenter
I’ve used Powerpoint for years. I’ve also used Keynote for 2 months and I’m sold. Powerpoint is great if you like jagged fonts and cheesy transitions. If you want something professional looking go with Keynote.
” @RJDohnert The Cube was brought over from NeXT and had many problems that is why the Cube is not around anymore.
Wrong, just because they are both Cubes does not mean they are the same computer. What made the Cube (Apple’s) innovative was the slot loading CD/DVD, they way the user accessed the inside (push pull handle that makes the entire insides slide out), the other innovation was that Apple’s Cube is FANLESS! ”
Okay the Cube was a NeXT product, Steve Jobs owned NeXT when he came back to Apple, he brought the Cube with him, it may have had design changes and some more up to date parts but the cube was neither, innovative or revolutionary
” @RJDohnertKeynote is a powerpoint knock off and it is not better than PowerPoint or even OpenOffice Impress, I put Keynote in the same class as KOffice Presenter
I’ve used Powerpoint for years. I’ve also used Keynote for 2 months and I’m sold. Powerpoint is great if you like jagged fonts and cheesy transitions. If you want something professional looking go with Keynote. ”
I’ve used Powerpoint for years. I’ve also used Keynote and I’m not sold. Keynote is great if you like jagged fonts and cheesy transitions. If you want something professional looking go with PowerPoint or OpenOffice Impress.
Well, looks like he’s started an old fashion flame war, so I may as well jump in! I’ve not finished all 70 comments, but hey, I’m on my 50 year old OS so I might as well interject!
Regarding the 50 year old OS: Your lovely window’s TCP stack uses the code from the 50 year old OS. So, therefore your OS is just as old and crickety as mine.
And mine doesn’t crash.
I haven’t had my OS, Windows XP Professional crash yet. Not to worry tho, Windows Server 2003 will finish killing of UNIX in the enterprise.
I hate coming to the defense of trolls.
Then why do it? Badump-ching.
[Insert Cube tussle ably deflected by Bytore here]
Guaranteed Apple would be dead in a year
OMFG!! That’s like SO an innovative statement I haven’t heard over and over for the last 5 years!!!
He said Apple would be dead in a year if it totally tried to use open source software to replace proprietary software.
I see you’ve done your homework
However, this claim is 100% unprovable. Darwin and Safari (among others) also show it to be more false than not.
Which that part is correct it has been discussed before and even Industry bigshots such as Larry Ellison have said alot of Open Source Apps are not on par with proprietary software.
“Industry bigshots” have also claimed that the Internet is a passing fad. Your point?
If you are going to quote somebody use the whole quote that way it doesnt look like you have something to hide.
I choose to see the forest for the trees, thankyouverymuch. If someone doubts my motives, they can go read the exact same publically-available post as I. I try to avoid overstuffing my own posts.
[Monopolies] must create innovation because everyone is trying to make a copy of their product. ie Evolution, MONO and many many more.
Well, either OSS is a viable competitor to proprietary software, or it isn’t. Make up your mind.
Right now Open Source software, while great is not a viable solution to proprietary formats at this time, especially these two products.
Aww, now you’re making reasoned statements — that’s no fun
I’ll be the first to admit that some OSS projects are crap. But others (Apache, for instance) are FAR from it. Due to the nature, and sheer volume, of OSS projects, it’s pointless to make any blanket statements about them.
Regarding Evo and MONO in particular (which I didn’t really want to focus on in my original post), I agree that they have a ways to go yet, particularly MONO. But my point stands: either OSS is crap and can be ignored, or it can’t be ignored because it isn’t crap. Or we all admit that it’s shades of grey.
Miguel De Icaza has said that Mono is a work in progress and IMHO when Mono can run all .NET apps, then and only then will it be the #1 contender to the .NET framework, Evolution is not as good or as easy to use as Outlook and that has been said before as well.by many people.
Agreed.
Ahhh.. I love proving people diametrically wrong =)
I do too, go ahead and wipe that egg off your face. You didnt prove anyone wrong.
Well, I proved Seth wrong. And I proved you wrong where you agreed with him. Round 2, anyone?
If you had quoted him correctly and put his words exactly the way he wrote them there would have been no retort.
That’s a mighty nice straw man you have there — where can I find one for the wife?
While I disagree with 85 % of what Seth said about Open Source software, I do agree that if Apple was to tell Microsoft to keep their product and not to bother with Mac development anymore. That would be suicide, because no Open Source software is 100% ready.
If they were to do that a) right this moment, AND to b) use OSS exactly as it is, I partially agree. The thing is, Apple wouldn’t be stupid enough to do either one of those, let alone both at the same time. You can bet that there is at least one large contingent of the Apple development team that is aiming to dislodge MS by leveraging[1] OSS, but a) they’re biding their time, and b) they will bring their design and ergonomics influence to OSS, as they did with Aqua on Darwin. They might even be able to pull it off with either one (timing) or the other (design), but the confluence of of the two is sure to bring Apple the greatest chance of success.
But if you give it 2-3 more years than yes it might be and Apple can cut off microsoft whenever they want.
Agreed — see my comments on timing above. Also, as a design-focused company, Apple is uniquely positionned to address one of OSS’s most pervasive flaws: mediocre interfaces (although even this is getting better these days).
And I notice the only ones that got mad at him are Mac users. You see the thing is not all of us follow Steve Jobs like good little indians like you guys do.
Me neither — I’m a BSD and Linux zealot
I just decided to have a go at Seth because he’s the type of semi-erudite sycophant that makes my life as a sysadmin harder. At least twice a week I have to deprogram a user (or even worse, a PHB) who has come across some Seth-like comment and decides that suddenly I just have to implement [insert crap MS product here].
Good Grief Im in the industry and all he did was repeat what other people have said, and isnt America a great place you can disagree with him and not get shot, and you guys can respond with untruthful garbage and not be ridiculed either.
I’m not in ‘America’ (I assume you mean the U.S.A.), but I do agree that it’s nice to have a place to flam^H^H^H^Hdiscuss these issues. I hope Eugenia doesn’t mind me stirring up trouble on her wonderful site! O:)
———————————–
PS. I just wanted to use the term ‘OSS’ again. OSS! Bork!
[1] Eww, I just used a marketing term **boils hands in iodine**
” “Industry bigshots” have also claimed that the Internet is a passing fad. Your point? ”
What you are reffering to, and I remember it because I actually wrote a paper on it, was the .COM era. Alot of people predicted the death of .COM and the .COMS were passing fads, I have never heard anyone say the internet itself was a passing fad, if you have any links to quotes I would love to see them, by the way the .COM era ended, only very few companies survived and the ones that associated themselves with the .COMS almost killed themselves.
” Well, either OSS is a viable competitor to proprietary software, or it isn’t. Make up your mind.
Right now Open Source software, while great is not a viable solution to proprietary formats at this time, especially these two products.
Aww, now you’re making reasoned statements — that’s no fun
I’ll be the first to admit that some OSS projects are crap. But others (Apache, for instance) are FAR from it. Due to the nature, and sheer volume, of OSS projects, it’s pointless to make any blanket statements about them. ”
The point was about MONO and Evolution, Agreed Apache is a good product but its one of few, But once again you read too much into my argument.
” If they were to do that a) right this moment, AND to b) use OSS exactly as it is, I partially agree. The thing is, Apple wouldn’t be stupid enough to do either one of those, let alone both at the same time. You can bet that there is at least one large contingent of the Apple development team that is aiming to dislodge MS by leveraging[1] OSS, but a) they’re biding their time, and b) they will bring their design and ergonomics influence to OSS, as they did with Aqua on Darwin. They might even be able to pull it off with either one (timing) or the other (design), but the confluence of of the two is sure to bring Apple the greatest chance of success. ”
Aqua is not open sourced at all, Apple refuses to Open Source Aqua, What you have when you see these Liquid themes for KDE and GNOME are imitations and not Actual Apple code. Personally I like KDE and I hope that the KDE team implements the Dialog sheets into the KDE Desktop but Im shifting here. I doubt Apple will every truly bring their GUI designs to OSS Apps at all, as you might remember Apple patented many of their designs and that would require the Open Source license the technologies, which they will not do and I know many who are skeptical about Apple right now, If Apple falls into a slump like SCO did and it has a chance to make money off of their patents they will go after anyone who uses their designs. Another thing that has many developers that I know personally skeptical is that Apple mixes its Open Source code with their proprietary code. But my friends do not make up the entire OSS movement so take their opinions any which way you want.
” But if you give it 2-3 more years than yes it might be and Apple can cut off microsoft whenever they want.
Agreed — see my comments on timing above. Also, as a design-focused company, Apple is uniquely positionned to address one of OSS’s most pervasive flaws: mediocre interfaces (although even this is getting better these days). ”
I disagree with you on that one, I find the Brushed metal look very professional looking and I would love to see more Open Source Applications go for the Brushed Metal look,
*note* I may have read into you there but the brushed metal interface seems to be the one everyone complains about.
” Me neither — I’m a BSD and Linux zealot
I just decided to have a go at Seth because he’s the type of semi-erudite sycophant that makes my life as a sysadmin harder. At least twice a week I have to deprogram a user (or even worse, a PHB) who has come across some Seth-like comment and decides that suddenly I just have to implement [insert crap MS product here]. ”
Im an Irix and Linux zealot myself, Im going to give you some advice from one sysadmin to another, its free Im not going to make you sign up for my classes for this. When someone tells me I HAVE to implement a Microsoft Product in my farm, I have three little words I tell them, write these down, I tell them to GO TO HELL. I forgive ignorance sometimes from my users because Its a Windows world and those are the Applications they know, but ussually after working with me for awhile they tend to take on Open Source Apps at home. I have downloaded and burned more copies of OpenOffice for Windows, Gimp for Windows than I would care too.
All of our comments are just opinions, as I stated above, Im only one user and my friends dont make up the entire industry, I have met Steve Jobs once, I liked him but it seems that he must give that ” Microsoft and Apple are the only two major desktop competition out there ” to everyone he meets, I met Steve Wozniak at MacWorld which I really liked him, very personable and down to earth and he even ribbed me for bringing a Linux laptop to MacWorld. Bill Gates, who is not very personable seems serious all the time and doesnt like negative comments about his products, I was kind to him but he seems likable, and Linus Torvalds, who was also another serious guy I liked him just didnt like his smarta– attitude to much. But anyway it doesnt make me a industry spokesman and doesnt make me an expert either, every prediction I make and you make for that matter may be wrong.
@RJDohnert Okay the Cube was a NeXT product, Steve Jobs owned NeXT when he came back to Apple, he brought the Cube with him, it may have had design changes and some more up to date parts but the cube was neither, innovative or revolutionary.
So you are basing this on the fact that they share the same name? Here are the Specs from both Cubes. They actually have NOTHING incommon except their name.
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=43104
http://next.z80.org/hardware/next/cubes/NeXTcube.pdf
@RJDohnert I’ve used Powerpoint for years. I’ve also used Keynote and I’m not sold. Keynote is great if you like jagged fonts and cheesy transitions. If you want something professional looking go with PowerPoint or OpenOffice Impress.
Umm, nobody believes you on that. Jagged fonts in Keynote? That’s a flat out lie and every OS X user knows it.
” “Industry bigshots” have also claimed that the Internet is a passing fad. Your point? “
What you are reffering to, and I remember it because I actually wrote a paper on it, was the .COM era.
Close, but no banana. I’m referring to this:
http://www.thinking.com.au/newthinking/newsletter000229.asp
Search for “fad” in the page.
Aww, now you’re making reasoned statements — that’s no fun
I’ll be the first to admit that some OSS projects are crap. But others (Apache, for instance) are FAR from it. Due to the nature, and sheer volume, of OSS projects, it’s pointless to make any blanket statements about them. “
The point was about MONO and Evolution, Agreed Apache is a good product but its one of few, But once again you read too much into my argument.
Perhaps -your- point was about MONO and Evolution, but my original post was referring to Seth’s statement about monolopies innovating, in which MONO and Evolution were merely given as examples.
Aqua is not open sourced at all, Apple refuses to Open Source Aqua,
I never said Aqua was OSS.
What you have when you see these Liquid themes for KDE and GNOME are imitations and not Actual Apple code. Personally I like KDE and I hope that the KDE team implements the Dialog sheets into the KDE Desktop but Im shifting here. I doubt Apple will every truly bring their GUI designs to OSS Apps at all, as you might remember Apple patented many of their designs and that would require the Open Source license the technologies, which they will not do and I know many who are skeptical about Apple right now, If Apple falls into a slump like SCO did and it has a chance to make money off of their patents they will go after anyone who uses their designs.
I agree that Apple can be a bit bull-headed at times — that’s just part of their corporate culture. It annoys me too, but it’s no big deal to me in the grand scheme of things.
Another thing that has many developers that I know personally skeptical is that Apple mixes its Open Source code with their proprietary code. But my friends do not make up the entire OSS movement so take their opinions any which way you want.
Skeptical that they DO, or that they SHOULD? As far as DO, there’s no danger in Apple mixing OSS with proprietary code, if they’re using LGPL or BSD or similarly-licenced doohickeys. As far as SHOULD, well, that’s a whole nother kettle of fish. Personally, ISTR hearing about Apple collaborating with Konqueror on Safari, and donating their old code back to various BSD projects, so they’re probably pretty good for OSS as a whole. Actually, they’re probably almost as good for OSS as IBM[1].
I disagree with you on that one, I find the Brushed metal look very professional looking and I would love to see more Open Source Applications go for the Brushed Metal look,
*note* I may have read into you there but the brushed metal interface seems to be the one everyone complains about.
Yep — you did read into me
I’m speaking of OSS in general. But like I said, it’s getting better.
Im an Irix and Linux zealot myself, Im going to give you some advice from one sysadmin to another, its free Im not going to make you sign up for my classes for this.
Ahhhh, a little sarcasm for sir? I haven’t lost you completely I see
When someone tells me I HAVE to implement a Microsoft Product in my farm, I have three little words I tell them, write these down, I tell them to GO TO HELL.
And here’s a little piece of advice for you: I ALREADY DO THAT. Given the choice, I’d rather not have to go through the confusion/disappointment/disillusionment/heartbreak cycle in the first place. Plus, I already consider myself plenty blunt — in case you hadn’t noticed — so I try to avoid needlessly confrontational situations.
I forgive ignorance sometimes from my users because Its a Windows world and those are the Applications they know, but ussually after working with me for awhile they tend to take on Open Source Apps at home. I have downloaded and burned more copies of OpenOffice for Windows, Gimp for Windows than I would care too.
Keep up the good work =) I do the same, and it’s a slow road. At least until Dell starts selling Mandrake 14.2 as default with their OpteronPlus home systems
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[1] Note that I’m speaking generally — IBM and Apple surely try to do some shifty things in their dealings with OSS — consider the IBM alliance with RedHat, for instance. But at least OSS licencing makes it a little tougher on them. I consider IBM’s sheer visibility to be its greatest contribution to OSS.
From their draconian lawyer tactics relating to rumors to their lack of innovative ideas lately, what’s the difference? I used to be a fan but now I’m just disappointed. Don’t kid yourself, Apple will never go Open Source for Apps just like they’ll never port over OSX to Intel. It’s sad to see a smart company turn stupid.
I’m not in ‘America’ (I assume you mean the U.S.A.)
There’s a difference between “American” and the “United States of America” (other than name length, of course)? Funny, we Americans weren’t aware of that. Unless, of course, you’re referring to “North America,” the continent? “America” is a proper way of referring to the United States of America (note that the name “America” here refers to the country, not the continent; this is not the United States of North America).
There’s a difference between “American” and the “United States of America” (other than name length, of course)?
Well, for starters, one’s an adjective and the other is a noun
Funny, we Americans weren’t aware of that.
Somehow that doesn’t surprise me… *ducks*
Unless, of course, you’re referring to “North America,” the continent? “America” is a proper way of referring to the United States of America
How can the United States be OF America if it IS America? I realise that the U.S.A. is often referred to as ‘America’, but this is a colloquy.
(note that the name “America” here refers to the country, not the continent; this is not the United States of North America).
‘America’ was named for Amerigo Vespucci, who along with Christopher Colombus is credited with the European discovery and charting of America (often called “the Americas” so as not to confuse citizens of the United States within America).
Got to call you on this one. I’m working towards a PhD in historical linguistics, so I know a thing or two about grammar and dichronic change in language. “America,” as referring to “USA,” is as old as “North America” and is not a colloquialism (which is the proper technical term)–check the OED and other historical dictionaries. Long before the Revolution, the British Parliament was using the term “America” to refer specifically to the thirteen colonies, and to the people who lived there as “Americans.”
Saying the United States OF America is not America is like saying the Federal Republic OF Germany is not Germany–“United States of” and “Federal Republic of” are each modifying phrases (I use the term “phrase” here loosely–you’ll see below) embedded within their respective greater noun phrases, the “head” (that is, controlling componant) of which is “America” and “Germany,” respectively. A diagram would look something like this:
NP=[[[AdjP=[Adj=[united]N=[states]]PrepP=[[Prep=[of]N=[America]]]
A tree diagram would be much easier to figure out, but I can’t display one here. Therefore, I’ll just have to use an embedding-type diagram. Also, I’ve modified it from its usual form a bit (there usually aren’t equal-signs).
And yes, I know who America was named after…we get that one in the first grade here, and they don’t let you forget it. Vespucci was never credited with discovering the New World; he was the first chartographer to (as far as they knew) accurately depict the newly discovered territories.
As for that “ducks” crack: grow up.
Got to call you on this one. I’m working towards a PhD in historical linguistics, so I know a thing or two about grammar and dichronic change in language. “America,” as referring to “USA,” is as old as “North America” and is not a colloquialism (which is the proper technical term)
My bad — “colloquialism” is verily what I meant.
–check the OED and other historical dictionaries.
Guess what: D’oh appears in the OED too.
Long before the Revolution, the British Parliament was using the term “America” to refer specifically to the thirteen colonies, and to the people who lived there as “Americans.”
Of course they did. Positive affirmation and all that — they planned to take -all- of America eventually (viz The Caribbean Wars), and for the longest time, the only factors preventing them from doing so were 1) the Spanish inroads into Central America (would this be Nebraska then?) and 2) a lack of willing/able expatriates to occupy the sheer land area. The sun never sets on the British Empire etc etc.
Saying the United States OF America is not America is like saying the Federal Republic OF Germany is not Germany–“United States of” and “Federal Republic of” are each modifying phrases (I use the term “phrase” here loosely–you’ll see below) embedded within their respective greater noun phrases, the “head” (that is, controlling componant) of which is “America” and “Germany,” respectively. [insert diagram here]
Okay, so that was an ambiguous example on my part. How about this: If the United States of America is contained within North America, what makes North America so NORTH? (Hint: North America is North of Central America, and Central America is, in turn, North of South America)
And yes, I know who America was named after…we get that one in the first grade here, and they don’t let you forget it.
Then you also know that “British America” didn’t even exist until over a century after America was called America by cartographer Martin Waldseemueller.
Vespucci was never credited with discovering the New World;
Yes he was, sometimes. Conventional wisdom dictates that he hadn’t made the discovery, but it’s never been clear cut (well, as clear cut as history can be, at least).
As for that “ducks” crack: grow up.
No, YOU grow up! Nya!