“So, even if it doesn’t catch on with your enterprise at large, Mac OS X Server will definitely contribute to the rising swell of Windows-alternative servers, and the open source community can always plunder its best features.” says ServerWatch on their review of Panther Server. Elsewhere, ComputerWorld says that Apple Remote Desktop 2 is ‘well worth the money‘.
Pouncing on Panther to Enter the Mac OS X Jungle
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
I’m guessing for most sys admins…all they need is screen+ssh.
I mean I’ve found myself connecting to remote boxes via SSH on a hand held WIFI enabled device running Windows Mobile or CE or whatever it’s called now.
“…and the open source community can always plunder its best features.”
How can anyone in the OSS community make such a comment and get away with it, while a classic anti-MS comment is that it doesn’t innovate and just steals ideas?
Otherwise, good review.
While OS X Server is still the easiest server OS I have used so far, it is not flawless. Sooner or later you are likely to hit a point where the GUI doesn’t cut it any more and you have to dive deeply into the guts of OS X Server:
Want to setup a DHCP server with static MAC->IP assignments? Be prepared to deal with the netinfo database, a proprietary configuration storage that can screw up things big time if something goes wrong.
Mirroring a LDAP/Kerberos Server? Works fine, but as soon as the master fails, the backup won’t be able to authorize any user logins.
And, unfortunately, for all the Unix stuff that comes installed, there’s no package management. You will have to use Fink or similar projects if you want to update or add Unix software, and then be very careful to not cause any conflicts with Apple’s preinstalled Unix software.
Nonetheless, I wouldn’t trade our XServes for Windows or Linux servers – but it’s not perfect, don’t buy into Apple’s marketing hype.
Or rather, Apple can always plunder OSS resources. Like they’ve already done, and make them proprietary and then yell innovation.
Or rather, Apple can always plunder OSS resources. Like they’ve already done, and make them proprietary and then yell innovation.
Erm, dude, as far as I know, Apple didn’t make anything proprietary. Darwin is OSS, and can be downloaded everywhere. Do they state Darwin is their’s? No they don’t, they clearly say OS X is built on BSD technology.
Please, guy, get a clue.
Did you read the article?
Erm, dude, as far as I know, Apple didn’t make anything proprietary. Darwin is OSS, and can be downloaded everywhere. Do they state Darwin is their’s? No they don’t, they clearly say OS X is built on BSD technology.
This is why the important distinction between Open Source and Free Software needs to be made more often, and more clearly.
Or rather, Apple can always plunder OSS resources. Like they’ve already done, and make them proprietary and then yell innovation.
So you are saying that making a configuration interface to “Samba, OpenLDAP, Kerberos, Postfix, and Apache”, is making those products proprietary? You have to be kidding right? So if I would create a closed source text editor, I would render every single OSS product on this world proprietary? How is this any different from commercial linux distributions, that include closed source software to configure or install software?
The only difference I see between Apple and those Linux distributions, is that Apple did a decent job.
Darwin is Free Software, according to the GNU web site:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#apsl2
why would anyone pick mac os server unless running a mac shop?
it can only run on exxpensive and proprietary hardware. both linux and windows run on myriad hardware choices.
it is only 32 bit. both linux and windows servers are both 32 and 64 bit capable…pick your poison.
apple at best has a two way server, linux and windows scale up to 64 way (and up in some cases).
“the unlimited client edition is $999” linux and bsd can be free (or you can get a for pay version with support), windows server 2003 web edition with unlimited web access starts at about $360. various other options abound based on need and scalability requirements. windows small biz server 2003 starts at about $430 for the standard edition with 5 cals..
educated and trained system admins are harder to come by versus linux and windows.
“it also means never having to troll the net for drivers” i know, such a difficult task for server admins to figure out how to get video card drivers.
“Though Mac OS X 10.3 Server is Apple’s tightest release to date, users should eschew upgrade installs and start clean to avoid tempting the bug gods” yet apple releases a new os point release on average every 12 months. hey lets format our server and start from scratch annually. sounds like windows 95 to me.
as for apple remote desktop at $299 for 10 cals or $499 for unlimited, that functionality is built into windows xp pro and server 2003 oses for free. so add that to bottom line of apples cost…on top of already over priced hardware and the price tag just keeps going up.
we dont even need to go into the lack of features in mac os x server…
nor do we need to discuss the paltry selection of third party solutions and add ons for the os.
Apple would be an attractive small business platform if they had a mailer that competed head to head with MS exchange.
“it can only run on exxpensive and proprietary hardware. both linux and windows run on myriad hardware choices.”
once you get into hardware options and industrial quality comparable to XServes your paying a lot no matter who you go with. i would agree if you said their desktop tower offerings are expensive, but in the server and laptop markets they have very competitive pricing.
Dude, the XServe is 64 bits.
Even an $700 eMac can have unlimited web clients. $360 bucks for the W2k3 Web Server edition doesn’t even get you one single, solitary CAL. You want Standard Server with 10 CALs? That’ll run ya 1199.
A dual G5 Xserve, Including the OS with unlimited CALs, runs you 3999 bucks. Care to compare a dual Opteron box? It’ll run you about the same, minus the OS. Add on top of that 4 grand for W2k3 with 25 CALS and you’re already getting shafted.
Pricewise, there’s no comparison. Microsoft is effing expensive.
Wherever you see (IP: —.chvlva.adelphia.net), it is the notorious TheSeeker, Apple troll for the slashdot generation. Feel free to shun at your leisure.
Smartpatrol hit the nail on the head–I run an all-OSX shop, and right now if I want a complete, decently-low-cost workgroup/email solution with email, calendar, shared files, and shared address book all in one client app, the only choice I have is Entourage with it’s broke-a$$ Exchange implementation.
Then, of course, I have to run exchange, which means I have to spend the time and the $$$ figuring out how to admin it and a Windows server box…. and, will it integrate with an Open Directory/LDAP environment?
The Apple platform is so attractive for small business, if there was an integrated workgroup email server and client a la outlook and exchange that ran on OS X Server and client a HUGE piece of the missing puzzle would fall into place.
Dude you really need to get a clue.
First off XServes and XRAIDS are not priced too bad, they are actually pretty cheap. Compare the price of OS X Server Unlimited license (which comes with the XServe at no additional cost) to the price of Windows Server 3003. There is a huge difference there.
And Apple Remote Desktop is nothing like what you get free with XP Pro. It is much much more advanced.
Before you start talking like you know some facts you should do a little research.
While OS X Server and XServes aren’t for everyone, they are a compelling solution, especially for their low price. Small and medium sized businesses as well as schools are the main target here and XServes are perfect for that.
I agree with the sentiments of those saying Apple is affordable for business purposes. They really are. Their software is much more reasonably priced. The fact that it is so intuitive also lends to increased productivity which must also be evaluated when considering the bottom line. Also, their hardware is fairly competitively priced at the high-end. Sure, their iMac is overpriced but why would a business run those.
>>why would anyone pick mac os server unless running a mac >>shop?
Top quality hardware and support? Good vendor to work with? Best UNIX I’ve seen?
>>it can only run on exxpensive and proprietary hardware. >>both linux and windows run on myriad hardware choices.
Look at IBM eServer 325’s or SUN unix boxes. You’re comparing mack trucks to a pinto. Just cause they can run on the road doesn’t mean they’re in the same class. When compared to an equivalent hardware platform (64 bit UNIX platform) the pricing is really reasonable.
>>it is only 32 bit. both linux and windows servers are >>both 32 and 64 bit capable…pick your poison.
tiger will be 64-bit. I’m not positive, but I thought microsoft did not ship a production 64-bit OS yet.
>>apple at best has a two way server, linux and windows >>scale up to 64 way (and up in some cases).
At what price? Do you need an SGI Altix for a small business? Web hosting? Probably not. The virginia tech cluster beats every Altix in the top 500 rankings, and I believe even at significantly lower cost. Also, I work with a designer of UNISYS es7000 servers, (32 processor Intel machines) and theres no scalability in SQL Server above 4 processors in Windows. The best you can do is run 8 machines inside of 4 processors each, in which case, why not buy 8 separate 4 proc boxes at significant cost savings?
>>”the unlimited client edition is $999″ linux and bsd can >>be free (or you can get a for pay version with support), >>windows server 2003 web edition with unlimited web access >>starts at about $360. various other options abound based >>on need and scalability requirements. windows small biz >>server 2003 starts at about $430 for the standard edition >>with 5 cals..
Try rating Windows 2003 advanced server with exchange, sql, etc. Try redhat advanced server or enterprise server
http://www.redhat.com/software/rhel/purchase/
Try prices on Solaris, or again IBM eServer 325. Or even the Intellistation A Pro.
>>educated and trained system admins are harder to come by >>versus linux and windows.
Certified mcse’s are not always educated, and most linux skills will directly correlate to OS X.
>>”it also means never having to troll the net for drivers” >>i know, such a difficult task for server admins to figure >>out how to get video card drivers.
I agree it shouldn’t be a problem with quality hardware. However, all interactions of hardware should be accounted for with a closed hardware source, unlike windows.
>>”Though Mac OS X 10.3 Server is Apple’s tightest release >>to date, users should eschew upgrade installs and start >>clean to avoid tempting the bug gods” yet apple releases >>a new os point release on average every 12 months. hey >>lets format our server and start from scratch annually. >>sounds like windows 95 to me.
It’s always a good idea to backup before a major update. I have never done a major upgrade on Windows server, or OS X, but I would imagine it’s a pretty similar process.
>>as for apple remote desktop at $299 for 10 cals or $499 >>for unlimited, that functionality is built into windows >>xp pro and server 2003 oses for free. so add that to >>bottom line of apples cost…on top of already over >>priced hardware and the price tag just keeps going up.
Never used remote desktop, but based on all their other software, I would say it’s probably pretty good, and if you don’t like it, use vnc, or ssh that comes out of the box.
>>we dont even need to go into the lack of features in mac >>os x server…
Have you ever used OS X? Apache? Bind? SSH? FTP? LDAP? Good administration tools? not to mention you can install fink, darwin ports, the new gentoo, and have almost any UNIX software you want.
>>nor do we need to discuss the paltry selection of third >>party solutions and add ons for the os.
??
You really have to do fair comparisons. As a UNIX vendor, they’re prices are sooo much more reasonable than say SUN. Even IBM with Linux is not a cheap solution. For comparable hardware, software and support, Apple is very reasonable. You can say bottom of the barrel Intel with linux/windows is cheaper, or Top of the line Linux/Windows/Sun/whatever is more scalable, but in the midrange server market, Xserves are awesome. I would much rather deal with them than Windows, or Sun. I like Linux and BSD, but to get comparable support, they’re no longer free.
it can only run on exxpensive and proprietary hardware.>>
Dood, you have not see expensive and proprietary until you have seen SGI or Sun.
Down in the server room about 100 yards from me we have a Sun quad proc and 4 Sun rackmounts running proprietary software (Our library’s catalog [Innopac]) on a proprietary OS (Solaris).
Trust me, Apple is wayyyy cheap compared to the $42,000 we spent (hardware alone) for that set up.
I run a small business (publishing) that uses Panther Server with a mixed Mac/Windows/Linux client base. Panther Server is terrific for someone with some tech knowledge but no MCSE/whatever certification. Here’s an article on Panther Server and why we decided not to go with MS Small Business Server:
http://www.smallbizmac.com/index.php?entry=/General/business-case-p…
“I’m not positive, but I thought microsoft did not ship a production 64-bit OS yet.”
ms has had 64 bit workstation and server oses since march of 2003. 18 months ago.
“once you get into hardware options and industrial quality comparable to XServes your paying a lot no matter who you go with. i would agree if you said their desktop tower offerings are expensive, but in the server and laptop markets they have very competitive pricing.”
an xserve is not competitive for small biz when they can buy servers for one third the price that do what they need. a 5, 10, or 20 person workgroup doesnt need a dual cpu server for basic file, print, backup chores….a dual xeon or athlon mp or opteron with small biz server 2003 premium scales to 75 users with power to spare.
“Dude, the XServe is 64 bits.”
64 bit hardware and a 64 bit os are different are they not?
“Even an $700 eMac can have unlimited web clients.”
well considering they are just distributing an open source product, apache, that doesn’t surprise me. whats your point? apache with unlimited clients runs on a $349 emachine with windows or a $200 linux box too?
“$360 bucks for the W2k3 Web Server edition doesn’t even get you one single, solitary CAL.”
i said: “windows server 2003 web edition with unlimited web access starts at about $360”
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/evaluation/overview/web….
“Client access licenses (CALs) do not apply to Windows Server 2003, Web Edition.”
so why even bring up the point about cals for a webserver?
“Add on top of that 4 grand for W2k3 with 25 CALS and you’re already getting shafted.”
see windows server pricing below, but you can use linux on your x86 hardware with unlimited cals for FREE.
“And Apple Remote Desktop is nothing like what you get free with XP Pro. It is much much more advanced.
Before you start talking like you know some facts you should do a little research.”
maybe you should read more carefully. i said “as for apple remote desktop at $299 for 10 cals or $499 for unlimited, that functionality is built into windows xp pro and server 2003 oses for free.”
when folks comment on things on here we assume you can read and understand the material yourself. yes xp pro remote desktop is a simple client and or server…it does both. but i specifically mentioned that the functionality of apple’s remote desktop was built into windows server 2003. its added power is free in the server os, not xp pro. not many xp pro users are looking for those features. they are server oriented and are free on windows server 2003.
as for windows server pricing (all readily available via osnews pricegrabber or pricewatch or froogle)(licensing options bring prices down even lower via negotiations with ms or a reseller):
Windows Server 2003, Web Edition $355 http://www.dljsystem.com/detailsSoft.asp?productID=1516
windows small business server 2003 standard edition with 5 cals (includes exchange and outlook that the above so dearly wish apple had a solution for) $397 http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.327906/sc.9/category.7/it.A/id….
Windows Server 2003, Standard Edition 5 cals $610 http://www.pcbase.com/cgi-bin/main.pl?category=Software&subcategory…
windows small business server 2003 premium edition with 5 cals $974
(includes
Windows Server 2003 Secure, reliable operating system File, print, and application sharing The power of Active Directory directory service and its tools
Windows SharePoint Services Team communication and collaboration environment
Exchange Server 2003 Internet e-mail and messaging solution Microsoft Outlook Web Access, to access e-mail through the Web Shared calendaring
Shared Fax Service Fax with fewer telephone lines Fax from users desktops User can set hours for faxing Receive faxes through SharePoint, e-mail oder printer
ISA Server Secure, shared Internet access Routing and netword address translation (NAT)
SQL Server 2000 Powerful, secure relational database for running business applications
FrontPage 2003 Develop web sites Create customized solutions for Windows SharePoint Services)
http://store.yahoo.com/go2pcparts/wismbuse20pr.html
Windows Server 2003, Enterprise Edition, 32-bit version 25 cals $1420 not the $4000 the above mentioned http://www.trustprice.com/as/product_details.cfm?ItemNo=1109-829540
Windows Server 2003, Enterprise Edition, 64-bit version 25 cals– same price
add on cals
Windows Server 2003, Client Access License 5-pack– $135 http://store.yahoo.com/softwaremedia-store/ms-r1800907.html
Windows Server 2003, Client Access License 20-pack– $407 http://store.yahoo.com/go2pcparts/wi2020callip.html
note all the choices. all the flexibility. volume licensing is even cheaper. getting your software bundled with your hardware if getting new servers is cheaper still.
yes you pay for cals with ms, but just tossing out the word “unlimited” with the mac server os has no meaning. lets have someone provide us a link where a major govt agency or business with lets say 50,000 cals is using mac os x server….
wow, mac os x server will let all 7 billion people on earth connect to that 2 way server!
one area where the xserve is targeted, small business, it cannot come close to the functionality of windows small business server 2003 premium (server os, exchange email server, web dev tools with frontpage, outlook client for workstations, that scales to 75 users.
if scaling larger what does apple do for dev tools like visual studio .net; database apps like sql, oracle, db2; management systems like systems management server?
ms has a stack that will carry you where you want to go:
Windows Server 2003
• Application Center
• BizTalk Server
• Commerce Server
• Content Management Server
• Exchange Server
• Host Integration Server
• Identity Integration Server
• ISA Server
• Live Communications Server
• Operations Manager
• SharePoint Portal Server
• Speech Server
• SQL Server
• Systems Management Server
• Virtual Server
• Windows Small Business Server 2003
• Windows Storage Server
likewise the other big boys like sun, hp, ibm etc. can scale you with linux or unix. apple is nowhere when it comes to stuff like this.
from CNet: 7/27/2004:
The software maker said Windows Server 2003 Service Pack 1, Windows Server 2003 for 64-bit Extended Systems and Windows XP 64-bit Edition for 64-bit Extended Systems will all be pushed back until the first half of next year. All three products, which are being developed together, were slated to ship by the end of this year.
The move is a blow to AMD, which has had its 64-bit desktop and server chips on the market for some time and has been waiting for a version of Windows that can take advantage of their capabilities. Intel has also said it will have chips that support the 64-bit extensions to the existing Pentium architecture, known as x86. There is already a version of Windows that supports Intel’s 64-bit Itanium architecture, which uses an entirely separate instruction set than x86 chips.
“As is the case with all Microsoft product schedules, the development cycle is driven by quality with a focus on the needs of our customers, rather than an arbitrary date,” Microsoft said in a statement.
Insight 64 analyst Nathan Brookwood said that although AMD would benefit from the software’s release, the delay should not significantly hurt the ability of AMD’s Opteron chip to compete against Intel’s Xeon
for your exchange replacement. geez its not that farking complicated lasses… and even costs you … *counts* 0 CASH!
may even run on that dusty box you got sitting in the back of your office as a paperweight.
that is for 64 bit extended systems…the new xeons and the opterons and athlon 64s.
windows server 2003 and windows xp pro have run on the itanium since march 2003.
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2003/mar03/03-28WinXP64Bit…
“In 2001, with Windows XP 64-Bit Edition, Microsoft delivered 64-bit desktop operating system support for the first-generation Itanium processor.”
xp has been 64 bit on itanium since 2001.
the server oses went 64 bit on itanium in april 2003
“Today’s RTM coincides with the RTM of the entire family of Windows Server 2003 products, including Windows Server 2003 Datacenter Edition for 64-bit Itanium 2 Systems and Windows Server 2003 Enterprise Edition for 64-bit Itanium 2 Systems. Microsoft will formally launch these products worldwide April 24 at the Bill Graham Civic Auditorium in San Francisco.”
sorry the article you read to base your decision on misinformed you on prices.
http://www.smallbizmac.com/index.php?entry=/General/business-case-p…
“As such, Panther Server is a far better value than Microsoft Windows Small Business Server 2003, which only includes five client licenses in its basic $500 version. The higher-end version of Microsoft Small Business Server costs $1,500; this is the version you must purchase to get the high-level database and webhosting features comparable to those that are included with Panther Server. In addition, Windows client licenses are $100 each after the five-user limit is passed.”
sbs 2003 standard from above: $397 with 5 cals
sbs 2003 premium from above: $974 with 5 cals
add on cals are: $340 per 5 pack http://www.monarchtechnology.com/Item.aspx?sku=C41544IM&sgd=330d312…
no exchange server, no outlook client, no frontpage web design app, no sql server, no isa enterprise class firewall with panther server as compared to the premium edition of sbs so im not sure what they mean by “this is the version you must purchase to get the high-level database and webhosting features comparable to those that are included with Panther Server”.
and their point about panther using mysql to save money versus the premium edition of sbs (using sql server) is again forgetting the fact that mysql will run on windows…so sbs standard can likewise implement the free open source mysql database.
poorly written article that conveniently uses full retail prices and doesnt even point out something so basic as the reality that mysql runs on windows as well.
why would anyone pick mac os server unless running a mac shop?
I’ve said it before so many times, and I’ll say it again, YOU ARE NOT THE ENTERPRISE. You are not a consumer of HPC resources, so for the love of god shut up!
it can only run on exxpensive and proprietary hardware.
Here’s a hint… as a consumer of HPC resources and an educational institution we can negotiate discounts with Apple for volume purchases. Currently we’re looking at 20 Xserve G5s in the < $50k range.
Our model is performing better on dual 2GHz G5 Xserves than it is on dual 3.4GHz Nocona Xeons in the Dell PowerEdge 1850… believe it or not Apple can have a better price point than Dell.
And believe it or not, in enterprise/HPC “proprietary” isn’t a bad word… we are looking for rock solid hardware with someone standing behind it who can help troubleshoot both hardware and software issues that may arise through the use of their products, because out here in the Real World downtime costs money…
it is only 32 bit. both linux and windows servers are both 32 and 64 bit capable…pick your poison.
The IBM XL C and XL Fortran compilers can both build executables which use 64-bit integers, which is all we really care about in regards to our model. However MacOS X Tiger will be a full 64-bit operating system.
apple at best has a two way server, linux and windows scale up to 64 way (and up in some cases).
Except with cluster computing our MPI application will be scaling up to 40 processors… and that’s a financial limitation, not a technical one. Care to tell me what you’d be doing with a 64 processor single system image with Linux or Windows that couldn’t better be done on “proprietary” *gasp* Sun hardware? Oh wait, you don’t work in the Real World…
First, the article was written last winter–that was the accurate pricing at Microsoft’s website at at the time.
sbs 2003 standard from above: $397 with 5 cals
sbs 2003 premium from above: $974 with 5 cals
add on cals are: $340 per 5 pack http://www.monarchtechnology.com/Item.aspx?sku=C41544IM&sgd=330…
OK, here you go: $397-$974 with 5 client licenses. From $420 (10-client) to $659 (unlimited at Pricegrabber. Plus the cost of Mac hardware, obviously.
no exchange server, no outlook client, no frontpage web design app, no sql server, no isa enterprise class firewall with panther server as compared to the premium edition of sbs…
Postfix/Cyrus mail servers built-in. I’m not sure what value Outlook has over other e-mail clients unless you’re a Microsoft junkie. No Frontpage web design app–as if any self-respect web designer uses Frontpage! No isa-enterprise-class firewall–it comes with ipp buit-in, that’s perfectly adequate for small businesses.
and their point about panther using mysql to save money versus the premium edition of sbs (using sql server) is again forgetting the fact that mysql will run on windows…so sbs standard can likewise implement the free open source mysql database.
Yeah, but you have to roll your own/install it yourself. Panther Server lets you turn it on with the click of a button. Ditto for Apache–all configuration handled via the GUI. I know people who run Apache/MySQL webservers on regular Win2K boxes, but it’s not something I’d like to do myself.
Currently we’re looking at 20 Xserve G5s in the < $50k range.>>
20 Xserves for under $50k
5 Sun servers for $42k
chvlva.adelphia.net, please come back and tell us about how overpriced Apple server hardware is again.
—
And believe it or not, in enterprise/HPC “proprietary” isn’t a bad word… we are looking for rock solid hardware with someone standing behind it who can help troubleshoot both hardware and software issues that may arise through the use of their products, because out here in the Real World downtime costs money…>>
Oy! Tell me about it. A software upgrade broke and lot of compatablities and caused our catalog to go down for close to 48 hours.
Nearly 1/2 our staff came to work for 2 days and had very little to do.
I shudder to think of how much longer it would have been if we had had no onsite tech support. (And they’re still working to fix some of the problems that started on Monday.)
“I’m not sure what value Outlook has over other e-mail clients unless you’re a Microsoft junkie.”
well it has personal folders, it has global data for the biz, it has full contact data (personal and global), powerful calendaring features, shared calendars via exchange, notes, tasks, etc. the biggest thing is its tight integration with exchange and a windows environment. apples offering doesnt compare.
“No Frontpage web design app–as if any self-respect web designer uses Frontpage”
considering that hundreds of thousands of websites worldwide were built using frontpage, i take that post to be just silliness. nevermind the number of intranets that have been built with it. more power to you if you are an artiste that needs dreamweaver to make something flashy. frontpage gets work done.
as for pricing the mac dual 2ghz g5 xserve is $4000 with os
or get this for
server $3384
sbs 2033 premium with 10 cals $1348
total $4732
http://www.ztgroup.com/config.asp?model=x9158
what ya get
2 x Intel® Xeon® Processor (533FSB) at 3.06GHz w/512K
Supermicro X5DAL-TG2 Intel® 7505 chipset Server Board (2 sata controllers, 6 USB 2.0 ports, and up to 8GB ram)
2.0GB ECC Registered DDR266 SDRAM (2 X 1GB)
3 x Seagate 80GB Serial ATA/150 Hard Drive in RAID 5 for reliability and performance (hot swap)
Seagate®/Certance Travan 5 10/20GB Internal ATAPI/IDE Tape Drive w/SW
1.44MB Floppy drive
ATI Radeon 7000 64MB Graphic Controller
Sony 4X DVD±RW & CD-RW Universal Drive
U.S. Robotics 56K V.90 Hardware Fax Modem
Dual Intel 82540 Gigabit Ethernet controllers
SuperMicro SC733T-450 MID Tower Chassis w/450W power supply
3-year Limited Warranty + 3-year Onsite Service (24 x 7 Phone Support)
with the server os you get
windows server 2003 with 10 cals
exchange server 2003
isa firewall server
sql server
frontpage
10 outlook clients
sharepoint services
outlook web access
fax services
remote desktop
and versus the mac, what you get for $700 more (that price from ztgroup would come down as well with one phone call):
more expansion bays and slots
double the ram
4x dual format cd/dvd burner over standard cd-rom
a pretty good video card (if you choose to have a monitor attached)
10/20GB tape backup drive with software
dual sata raid controllers (0,1,5)
floppy drive
a 56k modem for remote access or fax services
3 times the storage or raid for performance and backup
way better warranty with onsite service(the mac comes with 90 days of free telephone support and one-year limited warranty http://www.apple.com/xserve/specs.html )
so yes the pc is $700 more versus the mac but is a total solution with much better data integrity, data backup, and warranty and support. and that type of setup is exactly what ms is selling huge numbers of along with their channel hardware partners.
“Currently we’re looking at 20 Xserve G5s in the < $50k range.>>
20 Xserves for under $50k
5 Sun servers for $42k”
the cheapest single cpu xserve apple sells is $3000 on their site.
x 20 that is $60,000 and would have 90 days phone support and 1 yr warranty on the hardware. does it include on site service?
someone just posting what they say they can do or what they may do doesnt equate to what is actually available. apple is not much in the habit of knocking 20% off its selling price.
do a little looking about first. sun has dual opteron servers with linux or solaris that are quite a bit cheaper than $8000 each. look it up instead of just repeating.
the cheapest single cpu xserve apple sells is $3000 on their site.
Wrong! The Xserve cluster node (which just removes extraneous peripherals like two SATA bays and the optical drive) is $3000 for a dual 2GHz G5. The educational discount is an additional $500 off for the average student or educational institution consumer, bringing the list price down to $2500.
x 20 that is $60,000 and would have 90 days phone support and 1 yr warranty on the hardware.
We’ve stipulated a 3 year warranty.
does it include on site service?
Yes, Apple has a much bigger presence on our campus than any other computer reseller, and they have bent over backwards to provide us assistance in the past. 5 minutes ago the campus representative was here just to say hi and check in.
someone just posting what they say they can do or what they may do doesnt equate to what is actually available.
To Joe User? Assuredly not. But why would Joe User be looking for a rackmountable 1U server?
apple is not much in the habit of knocking 20% off its selling price.
Again, welcome to the real world. In enterprise computing, the price is almost always negotiable. Why do you think there are so many Sun resellers as opposed to people buying from Sun directly?
do a little looking about first. sun has dual opteron servers with linux or solaris that are quite a bit cheaper than $8000 each.
Sun actually provided us a grant whereby they would give us matching money towards their systems (essentially 50% off), and the V20z cluster we priced was substantially more expensive ($80,000)
Furthermore, the Opteron is just not that great of a processor for scientific computing as it has no good vector units. Its SSE2 implementation is actually slower than raw floating point operations, rendering it useless. Furthermore, our model makes intensive use of looped trig operations on double precision floating point values which vectorize quite well on units like AltiVec or SSE3 in the Nocona Xeon.
Thanks for playing, though.
20 x $2500 edu is $50k on the button. add some tax and shipping. add some racking, cooling, and power infrastructure. add the space to house the setup.
$50k dont cut it.
and you hope to get 3 yrs warranty with onsite service on i presume a 24×7 fully stressed out cluster for free?
good luck.
$2500 after your edu discount still leaves you higher than comparable xeon or opteron boxes.
if sun is too pricey, abandon them like so many are doing.
“Sun actually provided us a grant whereby they would give us matching money towards their systems (essentially 50% off), and the V20z cluster we priced was substantially more expensive ($80,000)”
http://store.sun.com/CMTemplate/CEServlet?process=SunStore&cmdViewP…
they have a 2 cpu model for $4k which makes for $80k if you are getting 20.
half that is $40k.
and that $4k v20z though not the fastest opteron, shows it with a faster scsi hd, 4x the memory to 2GB, and with the optical drive….
something doesn’t compute.
and sun of course also has its offerings with xeons and sparc cpus….
I’m curious Seeker,
Both bascule and kadie have .edu addresses and have provided convincing arguments as to why their respective institutions are considering and/or using Apple equipment.
A) Why does it matter to you what their schools do or buy?
B) You seem confident of both your technical knowledge and your buying expertise. Why not type up a resume and send it to any number of institutions?
C) You conveniently ignore statements like this:
”Furthermore, the Opteron is just not that great of a processor for scientific computing as it has no good vector units. Its SSE2 implementation is actually slower than raw floating point operations, rendering it useless. Furthermore, our model makes intensive use of looped trig operations on double precision floating point values which vectorize quite well on units like AltiVec or SSE3 in the Nocona Xeon.”
Indicating, to me at least, that you do not have sufficient technical knowledge to counter this. Instead, your tactic is to provide counter arguments with obvious copy and pastes from Googling the web.
Finally, why is it such an obsessive concern of yours to criticize others who have made buying decisions that don’t concern you? Don’t get me wrong-while I enjoy a healthy and informative debate between eloquent and learned individuals, I have found your redundant, one-note postings tiresome.
If you are trying to influence people’s opinions, wouldn’t a less accusatory and confrontational tone be more conducive? And aren’t these debates an unproductive use of your time? I know personally, between the pressures of work and family, these debates produce nothing positive for me.
If you decide to debate me on my points, be aware that I will not respond because, again, I find arguments of this type are a profound waste of the precious little time that we have.
20 x $2500 edu is $50k on the button. add some tax and shipping. add some racking, cooling, and power infrastructure. add the space to house the setup.
The reason I’m not giving specific pricing information is because I’m under NDA per our state contract with Apple not to disclose it.
However, let me assure you that figure includes the rack and gigabit switch, and it’s under $50,000 by thousands of dollars. We have a server room which already provides a central UPS and central AC for the room. It also includes 3 years of AppleCare on all systems.
they have a 2 cpu model for $4k
Yes, based around the 1.8GHz Opteron 244, which can’t even compete on raw integer/floating point scores with the 2GHz G5, let alone against AltiVec.
which makes for $80k if you are getting 20.
half that is $40k.
Plus the rack plus the network switch, plus additional nodes to compensate for the loss in speed for using slower processors.
and that $4k v20z though not the fastest opteron, shows it with a faster scsi hd, 4x the memory to 2GB, and with the optical drive….
We’re running an MPI application. It will also be using slower DDR333 memory as opposed to the DDR400 used by the G5 Xserve. Hard drive speed is irrelevant because computational nodes in our model receive grids to process from the master node via MPI and send their results back via MPI, never touching the hard drive except on the master node (which is linked to a rather large SAN)
Furthermore, while our model does provide configuration for using the IBM XL Fortran compiler (before moving to Apple from Sun, we moved to Sun from IBM RS/6000s), it doesn’t currently support the PathScale Fortran compiler (currently the best on Opteron). While I could try to modify the model to build with the PathScale compiler, unless I’m careful with optimization it could result in minute mathematical errors which cascade as the model progressively runs. As it stands we can use a time tested toolchain to build our model on the Xserve, or we can attempt to use newer, less tested technology with PathScale on Opteron.
Again, since you missed my original point, let me reiterate… YOU ARE NOT THE ENTERPRISE, so for the good of yourself and others please shut up! Your opinions on enterprise/scientific computing are ill conceived, have no experiential basis, and full of the typical banality seen in every teenager running SuSE in his basement who wonders why enterprise databases run on SunFire 15ks instead of a cluster of low end Lintel machines with considerable fault tolerance… after all, it worked for Google!
Go to work in the Real World… get yourself some industry experience, and I assure you your perspectives will change.
why would you keep telling someone to shutup? that isnt very kind.
thank you for taking the time to explain yourself. now that you have said a little more than 20 g5s for 50k we can clearly appreciate where you are coming from.
you have no claim to tell me what i am. first off i am not the ENTERPRISE. but yes i do work in the enterprise. i work with small and medium sized enterprises. i do not do hpc computing and it is not my specialty.
are you suddenly a business computing genius because you work in scientific computing?
that translates well to admining a few hundred desktops and attendant oses, apps, hardware, email etc? hardly.
but as this article and thread are about os x in the enterprise and not running scientific computing clusters. move along.
im curious why you are reading it then.
and even more curious why you told us about your issues with wasting time. why do something if you are aware its a waste of your time?
i have time to kill and i enjoy a lively debate.
i am not trying to convince anyone to buy something different. bascule himself is the one putting bids out on sun hardware. and uses it now.
“C) You conveniently ignore statements like this:
”Furthermore, the Opteron is just not that great of a processor for scientific computing as it has no good vector units. Its SSE2 implementation is actually slower than raw floating point operations, rendering it useless. Furthermore, our model makes intensive use of looped trig operations on double precision floating point values which vectorize quite well on units like AltiVec or SSE3 in the Nocona Xeon.”
Indicating, to me at least, that you do not have sufficient technical knowledge to counter this. Instead, your tactic is to provide counter arguments with obvious copy and pastes from Googling the web.”
i didnt ignore that comment. again, bascule is the one getting bids on opterons, not me. i did however point out that sun “of course also has its offerings with xeons and sparc cpus….” . if the opteron is known not to meet your specific need, why get a bid on it?
anyway, sun is over priced on xeon and opteron boxes. i wouldnt buy from them.
but this hpc stuff is a digression.
as for my persuasiveness, i know that i am not getting anywhere with you as you have wasted your time to tell me so. but i remain confident that my postings have some value to at least a few of the thousands of people that view osnews.
🙂
Whoever said that ARD desktop functionality in included in Windows XP Pro couldn’t be more far from the truth. At the very least they could have looked at the product pages for both.
Before anyone asks, I use both. It’s a shame you can’t edit messages because he’s now invalidated his other arguments in some peoples eyes.
I can understand a differing opinion on whats best for what, heck I’ve had my own ideas trounced by people more knowledgeable in certain fields. I can’t understand this strange desire for teenagers to post untruths to a site where the majority of people are experts. Really, who do they think they’re kidding?
Matt
no one that ive seen has said apple remote desktop is matched feature for feature in xp pro. who said that and where?
what i saw is a statement that apple remote desktop costs $299 for 10 clients or $499 for unlimited clients.
windows remote desktop client is free and runs on nearly all flavors of windows ( http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/tools/rdclientdl.mspx “Windows 95, Windows 98 and 98 Second Edition, Windows Me, Windows NT 4.0, or Windows 2000, xp home”) xp home, xp pro, win2k3 server, and even on mac os x. ms provides it FREE.
the server end of windows remote desktop comes free in both windows xp pro and windows server 2003.
FREE.
what i also saw is someone pointing out that the feature set of apple remote desktop is a lot more than just a remote client controlling a machine via a gui interface. that added functionality is built into windows server 2003 for FREE.
want to remotely manage your pcs? free
want to remotely boot your pcs? free
want to remotely control software installs? free
want to remotely control software functionality? free
want to remotely control pc security settings? free
want to remotely control user credentials? free
want to generate reports remotely from the server about the client pcs? free
want to share a screen for remote help sessions? free?
want to control your win2k3 server or any other xp pro both from any other xp pro box or win2k3 server? free
the list of controls and interactions that a domain contoller/active directory can have over its clients is virtually limitless.
the folks yakking around here must have never heard of one of ms biggest software elements. well to clue you in its called Active Directory. go read up on it and what it can do.
so go look at apples site for remote desktop and gather up a list of its functions and compare it to what is built into windows server 2003 by default and you will see that ms gives all of it away with the cost of the server.
that is what the point was earlier.
see for reference:
http://www.apple.com/remotedesktop/
feature set:
http://www.apple.com/remotedesktop/specs.html
so, yeah there may be a few odd things that ARD does that a windows 2k3 server doesn’t already do for free, but it doesnt amount to much.
Sun hardware is NOT proprietary. You can even get the specifications for Sparc at http://www.sparc.org.
To say that Apple hardware is better that the competion is short sighted – in my experience I would say that Sun hardware is better overal value.
Bless you —.chvlva.adelphia.net, you’re one of a kind.
Matt
nice summary of os choices for small biz
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1437884,00.asp
the editors choice:
ms small business server 2003
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1437882,00.asp
“Microsoft Windows Small Business Server (SBS) 2003 presents the most intuitive interface by far among the products in this story. Small-business end users, consultants, in-house IT experts, and VARs responsible for installing and maintaining systems will all appreciate how easy it is to navigate this OS. We also found the Web-based e-mail client Outlook Web Access unparalleled in the number and quality of features offered. And SBS 2003’s integration and synchronization features for mobile devices were both impressive and unique.
Using Microsoft’s remote-access feature, we felt as if we were sitting at our workplace desktop; there was simply no learning process needed. Such features are handy both for in-house IT managers working from their own workstations within a company and for administrators or VARs that manage systems remotely.
The IT-oriented set will be pleased with the many configuration wizards, which make even the most complex installation and configuration tasks straightforward.”
they give the mac its props though
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1473561,00.asp
summary:
“In general, OS X Server provided us with a rich, fully featured experience, with little hassle over setup and none for open-source tool integration. It may not best the range of features available in our Editors’ Choice winner, but it certainly earns high marks for ease of use, compatibility, and price. Keep in mind, though, the many collaborative features that OS X Server lacks compared with its competitors, and remember that it’s largely limited to using the business software created especially for the Apple Macintosh platform.”
“I’ve said it before so many times, and I’ll say it again, YOU ARE NOT THE ENTERPRISE. You are not a consumer of HPC resources, so for the love of god shut up!”
You aren’t “the enterprise”, either. Do not lecture others on the “real world”, as you aren’t in it.
“Here’s a hint… as a consumer of HPC resources and an educational institution we can negotiate discounts with Apple for volume purchases. Currently we’re looking at 20 Xserve G5s in the < $50k range.”
20 Xserves is HPC to you? Come on!
“And believe it or not, in enterprise/HPC “proprietary” isn’t a bad word… we are looking for rock solid hardware with someone standing behind it who can help troubleshoot both hardware and software issues that may arise through the use of their products, because out here in the Real World downtime costs money…”
Then Apple isn’t a good vendor for this application, since they have no support history at the “enterprise” level and do not provide the support companies like IBM are capable of.
“Except with cluster computing our MPI application will be scaling up to 40 processors… and that’s a financial”
That’s not “scalability”. Mac OS X doesn’t scale over 2 CPUs. What you are describing is a coarse-grained cluster.
That’s not the same thing as a system like Altix – which DOES scale over 2 CPUs running Linux.
“limitation, not a technical one. Care to tell me what you’d be doing with a 64 processor single system image with Linux or Windows that couldn’t better be done on “proprietary” *gasp* Sun hardware? Oh wait, you don’t work in the Real World…”
Sun hardware is far less capable then an SSI system like Altix – which runs Linux. The technical computing market is not one Sun has an advantage in – especially in HPC.
You work for Colorado State, don’t you? That’s not the Real World, but academia.
“Furthermore, the Opteron is just not that great of a processor for scientific computing as it has no good vector units. Its SSE2 implementation is actually slower than raw floating point operations, rendering it useless. Furthermore, our model makes intensive use of looped trig operations on double precision floating point values which vectorize quite well on units like AltiVec or SSE3 in the Nocona Xeon. ”
This may be true for YOUR code, but not true generally. One has only to consider SPEC – which is made up of a large collection of scientific codes as well as user apps (like gzip) – results for the two platforms.
Altivec doesn’t support DP vector operations, by the way.
Again, you are in an academice environment. You aren’t in “Real World” or the “Enterprise”.
“Again, since you missed my original point, let me reiterate… YOU ARE NOT THE ENTERPRISE, so for the good of yourself and others please shut up! Your opinions on enterprise/scientific computing are ill conceived, have no experiential basis, and full of the typical banality seen in every teenager running SuSE in his basement who wonders why enterprise databases run on SunFire 15ks instead of a cluster of low end Lintel machines with considerable fault tolerance… after all, it worked for Google! ”
So, incidentally, are yours. You really are not making Colorado State look good here, Bascule.
“Go to work in the Real World… get yourself some industry experience, and I assure you your perspectives will change.”
I have actual “industry experience”. You’re full of it.
I’ve seen some prices quoted for Sun hardware, and the issue has been raised how how do 5 Sun servers cost over $40,000?
One of the servers in question is a Quad Proc. It’s about 2 years old now, but it cost over $30,000. It gets pretty heavy use as it serves our catalog and website. It also is really fast, even under heavy use. (Our old server had a load average of 2.5, and spikes as high as 7 during peak times.)
Had X serves been on the market when the initial studies were being made about what to use to serve our catalog, I think they would’ve been contenders for the rackmount units.
As it is, a PowerMac tower monitors the network. (It’s a real mixed shop in the server room: Sun, Dell, Gateway, and the Apple.)
I would like to make an arguement that academia is the real world. No, we don’t make money, but we are your taxpayer’s dollars at work. When our hardware/software goes down, you aren’t getting what you paid for.
Where I work, other departments on campus as well as other state and county entities make use of the data contained on our catalog and website. When they can’t get the information they need, that impacts their workflow, or delays their research. Once again, you, the tax payer aren’t getting your money’s worth.
Or you could be the student/public use patron coming up, trying to find some books or check out items, only to be told “Sorry, you’ll have to come back later, we can’t help you right now.”
Just because at the end of the day we aren’t making money doesn’t mean that we don’t have people looking over our shoulders, needing things fixed ASAP, or that we don’t have the same pressures to have 99% uptimes, etc. We have to justify our expenditures to beancounters, too.
We are very much the real world.
Well said, Kady Mae.
-Masao
“I would like to make an arguement that academia is the real world. No, we don’t make money, but we are your taxpayer’s dollars at work. When our hardware/software goes down, you aren’t getting what you paid for.”
Academia is a far more sheltered environment.
“Where I work, other departments on campus as well as other state and county entities make use of the data contained on our catalog and website. When they can’t get the information they need, that impacts their workflow, or delays their research. Once again, you, the tax payer aren’t getting your money’s worth.”
Which doesn’t make “academia” – with it’s politics and grants – any more the “real world”. I’ve worked in an academic department and outside one. Quite a bit different.
Academia is a sheltered environment that is granted money by state agencies. That’s not the way industry works.
“Or you could be the student/public use patron coming up, trying to find some books or check out items, only to be told “Sorry, you’ll have to come back later, we can’t help you right now.””
A library catalog system is “enterprise computing” now?
“We are very much the real world. ”
Not really, no.
What is what you call “the real world”? Who, on whose authority, has defined the so-called “real world”?
“What is what you call “the real world”? Who, on whose authority, has defined the so-called “real world”?”
“The Real World”, as opposed to the Ivory Tower, is one where you must produce before you are paid.
A place without tenure.
Regardless, I was taking exception to Bascule’s demand that everyone not in the sheltered world of a university should “shut up” and that his experience related in any way to “enterprise computing” or gave him insight above all others on the subject of HPC.
http://www.tcf.vt.edu/
k im a univ funded by taxpayers. i fly a kite of a proposal and some bureaucrat takes it. i get my money.
lets build a supercomputer out of hardware and software no one has ever used on this scale before.
never mind that we need over 1000 of these things and they come in giant cases
http://www.tcf.vt.edu/initial_project/IMG_3651.JPG
it will work great im sure.
oh the vendor cant ship on time. oh the cpu maker is having production problems. did we pick the wrong platform?
delays and more delays.
oh wait. nah we goofed. it dont work so well after all.
lets tear it down and rebuild it with something better.
http://www.tcf.vt.edu/upgrade_gallery/full_size/DSCN0207.jpg
ahhh, so these fit better. a better design. more efficient.
wonder why we just didnt wait and use these the first time?
oh, we did wait. and wait.
wonder how much money and how much labor we wasted building this tool two times?
oh darn the vendor and cpu maker still havent fixed their supply issues and we sit here with a massive investment doing no work.
delay some more….
how much productivity did we get out of our cluster while it has been down for over 6 months?
it still isnt up and fully operational to this day.
so in a years time, how many days did va tech actually run their cluster and get some work done?
if this had been private enterprise. people would be fired over this failure to produce a working cluster that gets work done on an hour by hour basis.
va tech picked apple and they have had nothing but problems since.
guess they shoulda just picked regular old 1u dual xeon boxes and they would be working right now and would have been all along.
ever wonder why the apple happy press hasnt covered this story of monumental failure? why doesnt the press cover the never ending build process of this cluster for va tech?
When Bascule talked about “real world” he was talking from a purely computing point. Now you come up with commenta like…
“The Real World”, as opposed to the Ivory Tower, is one where you must produce before you are paid.
A place without tenure.
I do not see what this has to do with computing, computing intesiveness, etc. Just because one is on a grant and another goes home with grease all over??? – I am still failing to see where this has to do with computing and application of computer resouces to solving a problem. A problem, which to a computer, is meagrely computations.
So once again, just because you are running WallStreet and I am calculating what is the most optimum angle at which to bake a cake in the Culivary Arts department so that it rises to a particular height and the dough a particular consistensy, etc, etc – all that has nothing to do with person X who actually does intensively untilize computing resources (Bascule? or someone else) and person Y who has read about it and been in envorinments where they might USE MANY computers and yet NOT do ANY resource intensive work (e.g. SHIVALVA).
Just in case you did not understand the long version, “real world” was referring PURELY to computing abilities and problem solving KNOWN AND EXPERIENCED vs. having read that PC company X is at the nth position among supercomputers and that online store XYZ sells computers at such and such a price vs. having handled (or been a part of) the REAL aquisition of these tools.
Regardless, I was taking exception to Bascule’s demand that everyone not in the sheltered world of a university should “shut up” and that his experience related in any way to “enterprise computing” or gave him insight above all others on the subject of HPC.
hhmmm… hhmmm again. I am wondering – are we reading the same forum because I would love for you to show me where he/she said that acadamia was the SOLE real world.
It’s funny, somebody once said a long time ago that when people cannot argue on merit, they attack the person/messenger i.e. resort to character assasination.
It seems what we have here are some people taking a jab (wannabes is a word that springs top mind) at being expert manipulators of language with the intent to decieve, FLIMFLAMERS my friend calls them. But the execution is so poor concidering that one only has to go back a 2 or 3 pages to prove them wrong.
Just because I mention the words naked and half in the same story it does not mean I am/was half-naked. Just because B FIRST mentioned that he/she was in the real world and then it was later brought out that they work in acadamia it does not mean that they are saying that acadamia is the ONLY place one can experience this, just that they DO have the HANDS ON & 1st HAND experience.
Try applying that logic in a LOGIC or philosophy class and see where that gets you. The only thing I can give you though is that you tried… no harm in trying, right? SHIVALVA??
As I was reading these articles I just knew there was going to be a comments flamewar…
Price is not really the issue with XServe + Mac OS X. The issue is the capabilities of the system. Each update to the XServe and to Mac OS X has seen Apple narrow the gaps, but the gaps are still there. The gaps have been covered in detail numerous times in reviews, and in comments posted to OSNews, so I won’t reiterate them all here.
Apple’s reputation on servers also haunts adoption of their solution, and I imagine it will take several solid releases of XServe + Mac OS X to change buyer’s minds.
The XServe is not directly targeted at HPC, although with clustering it can obviously do it. The Virgina Tech cluster (that was actually set up with Power Macintosh units and not XServe units, but are similar enough in specification to count) had PR value to Apple, mainly as a demonstration that their G5 line could “keep up with the Joneses”. We can agree that they do, but that’s a far cry from being a good all-round production server for Enterprise use.
Fortunately for Apple, testimonials to date show that XServe’s (I’m talking the G5 XServes here) are doing a decent job of production work at most levels.
As someone who works in a large enterprise, I believe that XServes would fit well in to our environment as targeted application servers. I don’t believe we’ll actually be getting any, but you never know. After all, the data centre is a very heterogeneous environment, as those working in enterprise facilities will attest.
I think stew said it best, above:
While OS X Server is still the easiest server OS I have used so far, it is not flawless.
[…]
Nonetheless, I wouldn’t trade our XServes for Windows or Linux servers – but it’s not perfect, don’t buy into Apple’s marketing hype.
The XServe is not perfect, but it’s not that bad either.
“When Bascule talked about “real world” he was talking from a purely computing point. Now you come up with commenta like…”
He was taling about the “real world” in “enterprise computing”, and that anyone without real world enterprise computing experience should “shut up”.. The problem is, he really doesn’t have “real world enterprise computing” experience.
“Just in case you did not understand the long version, “real world” was referring PURELY to computing”
No, that’s not what “real world” referred to.
“It’s funny, somebody once said a long time ago that when people cannot argue on merit, they attack the person/messenger i.e. resort to character assasination. ”
Which is pretty much what you are doing here.
“Try applying that logic in a LOGIC or philosophy class and see where that gets you. The only thing I can give you though is that you tried… no harm in trying, right? SHIVALVA??”
Bascule is claiming “enterprise computing experience”, although he doesn’t work in that environment. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that he was really a *student* at Colorado State.
He also claimed that the G5 supports DP vector operations.
That is false. Isn’t he claiming to be an expert and that we should all just “shut up”? Sounds like it.
Do you have *anything* productive to contribute? Are intentionally trying to be incoherent?
Bascule
“YOU ARE NOT THE ENTERPRISE, so for the good of yourself and others please shut up!”
How does he know that the person he replied to had no “enterprise computing” experience. In fact, how can he prove *he* does here? His posts certainly do not back that up – only his assertions.
“it still isnt up and fully operational to this day.”
Yes, it is:
http://www.tcf.vt.edu/
http://www.tcf.vt.edu/upgrade_gallery/upgrade_pics.html
They are doing further stabilization and benchmarking, but it’s running.
“va tech picked apple and they have had nothing but problems since. ”
VTech has never expressed any problems. They knew the first G5s didn’t have ECC RAM, they knew the XServes were coming, they were glad to build the first system, hit the Top500, take it offline, and massively upgrade it. Show me one link where they, not you, express dissatisfaction with Apple.
what do you not understand about “fully operational”
you say “Yes, it is”
then in the next breath you point out just as they say on their site that it is still in a development and testing stage. built is one thing. being used is another. the cluster is not being put to work.
and why va tech doesnt say anything publicly is a simple matter of a nda for the deal apple gave them to get all the press they got over the phantom super computer.
hey we’ll announce a benchmark for a week, get on the top500, then take it down before any independent verification or outside observers see it.
all very convenient.
and knowing apples master marketing, it all fits apples typical smoke and mirrors.
How’s is stablization (which is performance tuning) and benchmarking equivalent to not operational?
Seems like VTech talks about it quite a bit, and you are the only one who knows about this NDA. Don’t know what kind of NDA is applicable to purchasing some product, but whatever… You aren’t happy with facts and reality, I understand.
“How’s is stablization (which is performance tuning) and benchmarking equivalent to not operational?”
vatech didnt spend $5 million plus to benchmark the machine and stabilize it.
the money was spent to perform scientific computing tasks for an engineering and science school. until it is doing that it isn’t “fully operational”
and since it has only done that for a very brief amount of time, vatech has wasted a lot of time, money, and labor over the last year working with apple equipment.
all of that has to be factored into the real cost of this project. days of non use are days of wasted money. time on a big machine like that is worth a great deal cash to the school and researchers from all over the world would normally pony up for access to a supercomputer. vatech is not getting any revenue off a perpetually optimized, stabilized, error corrected, and rebuilt super computer.
quibble all you like. the record speaks for itself.