Longhorn’s woes may open a door for Linux—a very tiny door—but Linux just isn’t a good choice for desktops. Instead, desktop Linux proponents should wake up and switch to the Mac OS.
Longhorn’s woes may open a door for Linux—a very tiny door—but Linux just isn’t a good choice for desktops. Instead, desktop Linux proponents should wake up and switch to the Mac OS.
“as soon as we don’t have to pay the Steve Jobs hardware tax.”
Dang dude, it’s called a computer company, trying to make money and keeping their share holders a bit happy.
“there are many more excellent commercial OS X apps than there are Linux apps”
Yeah right…. Complete nonsense.
“Give us the port to x86. Until that happens OSX and Apple hardware will continue to slide into irrelevance.”
Definately! Perhaps its just not profitable enough, but now more than ever Apple are capable of porting OSX to x86 hardware. It seems like a golden opportunity to make many inroads into a market that shy’s away from Apple hardware.
I was waiting for an article like this. Longhorn’s delay maybe profitable for Apple and or maybe consumers, but look at the story with a broad view. If users turn to OSX, its the same old windows story then. Propreitry ! Then why the hell is open source there for ? Users MUST wait and preferrably turn to Linux. Talking about applications, it may not be a long time untill we see quality applications for Linux that aren’t availiable for WIN32 or MACOS !!!! LOL
🙂 :p
I can’t believe eweek printed that. He doesn’t even support his “reinventing the wheel” argument, nor does he prove that that is actually a bad thing.
If no one had bothered to “reinvent the wheel” we’d all be using the X11, even Apple.
Linux works fine on my dekstops.
Should they come out… will be a dual core G4 PowerBook 8)
I want one soooo bad! For me, Linux does not offer any appeal over Windows… OSX on the other hand is a better experience, and can still do a whole bunch of powerful *nix stuff (and is easier to learn with to boot AFAIK).
Plus, PBs are the sex, well worth any “Steve Jobs Tax”
If only Mac’s had the gaming space of PC….
Dang dude, it’s called a computer company, trying to make money and keeping their share holders a bit happy.
Fine. Jobs can run Apple anyway he sees fit until the Board throws him out again, but I have no desire to pay for overpriced hardware because of Jobs hardware fetish. Put out a x86 DVD for a couple hundred bucks and I’ll be the first one in line to buy. But since Jobs is afraid of Gates and because he has a hardware fetish I doubt we’ll see that until Jobs is gone again.
desktop Linux proponents should wake up and switch to the Mac OS
Yeah, sure… So, where can I buy a reasonably priced version of Mac Os X for my PC? Nowhere? Oh, so I have to buy a new Mac machine too if I want to use Mac OS. So, let’s see the price tag… Good grief… End of story.
Windows, Linux or BSD, almost anything is cheaper than Macs. Sure if you have too much money in your hands, buying a nice slick mac might be an option for you.
The Mac OS X usability might very well be top class at the moment, but even in that sense Macs are often not that spectacular actually.
Let me remind you of this good story about the several Mac problems by Jean-Baptiste Quéru: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=7529
According to JBQ Macs are “overhyped, overpriced and underperforming”.
I’m sure PC users will be more than happy to throw their existing PC hardware and buy Apple’s instead, just because Longhorn won’t be on time and with less features than expected.
After all, what will all those live distros that allow them to try linux without installing it first, and the growing enterprise interest on linux (novell, sun, etc.). And to show them MacOS X, we will just need to buy Apple computers ourselves, or show it in PearPC running slowly on multi-gigahertz 80×86 CPUs. It’s not like they (PC users) will care about games, anyway.
Who said it was a bad idea, huh? Desktop evangelists of the world, rejoice!
Plus, PBs are the sex, well worth any “Steve Jobs Tax”
Except they are woefully underpowered and overpriced. Back in January I was pricing power notebooks (not mobile systems, but desktop replacements). What I found out was that the apple systems were a thousand dollars more and woefully underpowerd compared to the Sager 5680 (3.2 ghz, 1 gig ram, ATI 9600 pro, wireless, etc…) for $2K. There is no equivalent powerbook in terms of power (I think the powerbook tops out at 1.4 ghz) and it was also a thousand dollars more for the top of the line powerbook.
Once again, put out the OSX DVD for x86 and I’ll be the first one in line.
Irrelevant? Most people don’t even know what Linux is, other than a computer word. Recently I told my brother — who is a *software developer* — that I was installing Gentoo on a box and he had no idea what I was talking about. But everyone knows who Apple is. Everyone knows what a Mac is. Everyone in the PC industry takes its cues from Apple in both engineering and product design. How is that irrelevant?
Linux is currently irrelevant except for dedicated uses like servers and terminals in call centers and shop floors. And it isn’t going to become any more relevant an OS for true knowledge workers as long as it requires so much technical knowledge to use. Not to mention the lack of any applications like Microsoft Office that people need to use.
OS X isn’t just trying to become as good as Windows, it’s already better in almost every respect. It has Office. It’s as cheap as Windows on a TCO basis, which is what industry cares about.
The point of this article was to point out that OS X is a viable business desktop today, not tomorrow.
The point of this article was to point out that OS X is a viable business desktop today, not tomorrow.
Yeah, looks like the business desktop installations of linux by companies like Sun (JDS), Novell/Suse and Redhat were just a scifi tale. Sigh.
Most of Apple’s income comes from its hardware sales (Macintoshes/iPod). An x86 version of OS X will never happen, it’s a nice idea though.
Okay back onto the article… The author is some what correct, Linux is still not polished enough for the average user to switch and/or certain “clones” of apps do not yet exist for linux or not on the same level of quality. Linux is close, but not close enough. Mac OS X is a great alternative to Windows and I believe the only factor holding it back from massive adoption is cost on the low end. Although IMHO, it is well worth the extra money to switch.
-Masao
(I switched from Linux to Mac OS X in Feb of 04, until then I was using Linux as my main OS since Mandrake 8.0)
Linux works fine on my dekstops.
Except for the spell checker evidently…
8)
It wasn’t Coursey that dissed Phil, and the iMac, it was Dvorak.
“Most of Apple’s income comes from its hardware sales (Macintoshes/iPod). An x86 version of OS X will never happen, it’s a nice idea though. ”
everyone says this to dismiss a port of osx, but it seems to me that apple would start making large sums of money if they were selling a lot of copies of osx. its not like apple is only a hardware business trying to start into the software business, they have always had both hardware and software portions. they just need to start investing in the software side like they did with the hardware and they could make more money.
Sure, Mr David Coursey, I’d switch when I can download OS X for free over the internet for my x86, sparc, ppc and xbox.
However, if you think I’m going to shell out thousands of dollars for an OS that is basically a pretty interface of Unix and that doesn’t do anything remarkably better than my Linux box just to get locked into another proprietary prison camp and hardware again, you must be smoking stones.
Mr David Coursey, did you think we switched from Windows to get locked in again? Perhaps some of us value scalability, freedom, customizability, portability, platform indepenedence and openness over pretty icons and sexy interfaces. I’ll admit if I didn’t value those, my iMac will be my primary desktop.
I got a laptop from work with OSX 10.1 on it (older iBook) and had a shitty time with it. Applications crashed, it wouldn’t find any of the windows shares on the LAN, and the animations and stuff didn’t do anything to enhance usability (Why do I have to wait for a dialog box to slide down from the top of the window, it just wastes time).
Sure OSX has gotten much better, but why the hell would I want to spend $129 every year or so just to upgrade my OS. And OSX just sucks with respect to backwards compatibility. Half of the programs I wanted to download wouldn’t even run on anything older than OSX 10.2 or 10.3.
I don’t understand why no one rips into Apple for paying absolutely no attention to backwards compatibility so half the apps built for a newer point release don’t work on an older one.
Most of Apple’s income comes from its hardware sales (Macintoshes/iPod). An x86 version of OS X will never happen, it’s a nice idea though.
I always thought one of the things that Apple has going for them is the fact that they produce the hardware and the OS. What good is that? Go to any Windows/Linux/Syllable/SkyOS/etc. forum and you’ll see a buttload of the issues people have are such-and-such hardware device does not work well with the OS. My choice of Linux distro I use didn’t come down to the distro I liked the best, it came down to the one that worked with all the hardware on the box I installed it on.
When you install OS X on your supported Mac, all the hardware is going to work because Apple produces all that hardware. If OS X were ported to x86, you’d run into the same issues you have now; some hobby box builder will build a box with a bizare hardware config that bombs under OS X, and OS X will start looking bad, even though it’s not OS X’s fault.
I agree, Apple would do well if they would lower their prices, but would do bad if they ported over to x86.
yeah, OSX might be great, but I cringe before corporate vendor lock-in. Linux has reached a fine level on the desktop and I have faith that open source will evolve at a rapid pace.
i got my tech writers mixed up.
One week they slam Apple , the next praise them.
It’s got to be that they be looking for hits on their sites.
Even if OSX was ported to “open” (x86) hardware, hell, even if OSX was given away for free it doesn’t negate the need for gnu/Linux.
Linux is a free operating system. Not only is it free to use, it’s free to modify, examine the source, and redistribute.
This is necissary.
In my opinion Apple should be more scared of linux than Microsoft. Apple is at a disadvantage because their software only runs on one platform, and is based on nearly the same base (freeBSD/Darwin) as linux. It’s only a matter of time until the top catches up with the bottom…and surpases it. With the development of D-bus, Glitz and X.org, the key advantages Apple has over the competition are going to dissolve. This is an important time for Linux, and no OSX point release (jaguar,panther,tiger oh my!) is going to stop the momentum.
I am wondering what David Coursey is really advocating.
1. OS X is great, People that like Linux on x86 should stop wasting theirs and everyones time and go over to the powerpc world and use OS X. It has COMMERCIAL apps! Leave the x86 space to Microsoft.
or
2. OS X is great, Apple should invade the x86 space, everyone would stop thinking abount Linux and jump on the OS X bandwagon because it is so wonderful, even Windows users.
All the OS X COMMERCIAL apps will be ported over instantly. Hardware manufacturers will line up and port over drivers to run on x86(OS X only, not Linux).
I don’t think option 2 is it. I can imagine the FUD, if Apple invades the holiest of holies, the x86 space, with yet another OS. The x86 platform is Microsoft personal territory and any trangressors will be dealt with harshly.
Linux has already been ported to the powerpc hardware, ppc hardware isn’t safe either. It still doesn’t have COMMERCIAL apps thought, only of the FOSS variety, which seems to not count.
what compelling feature does mac os x have over windows?
hardware is more expensive
fewer oses run on apple hardware than on x86 hardware
mac software costs more
mac has less software choice
mac has less hardware choice
this isnt the days of comparing a gui to dos
or postscript versus no postscript
or cd rom multimedia versus floppy discs
please inform us of the ground breaking things that mac os x or macs have over windows and pcs?
pretty icons?
special genie effects in the dock?
ichat…oh yeah pcs have abundant choice in chat software for a long time.
oh video and sound chat…again windows has had for ages.
fast user switching….again windows had first.
encrypted files and folders….pcs first again.
sata bus…pcs first.
802.11a/b/and g….macs still dont support a.
pci-x…pcs had first.
ata 100 and ata 133…pcs had first.
usb 2.0….pcs had first
agp at each speed increase….pcs had first.
pci express….pcs have first no support on macs.
built in tv tuners….pcs have first still no option from apple.
media center pcs…not with apple.
tablet pcs….not with apple.
pocket pcs….not with apple.
portable media centers….not with apple.
dual layer dvd burning…not with apple.
dvd + standard….on pcs first.
52x cd burning…still not available on any mac.
native dolby 5.1…still no mac does it.
browser made by os company…ms beat apple.
mail app done by os company….ms beat apple.
sorry folks, apple lags in nearly everything now. they almost always come second to hardware technology. their os contains no killer features the way it did in the 80s and early 90s.
instead you just pay a premium for skin deep fancy cases and style. that is important to some, but to most the substance is lacking.
But everyone knows who Apple is. Everyone knows what a Mac is.
No they don’t.
I’ve heard that Macs are still rather popular in the North America and maybe in a couple of other countries too. Apple machines are good in their own relatively small niche markets (DTP & design, some server use & multimedia etc.) but that’s about it.
In many places, also in Europe, Linux is already better or at least as well known as Macs. Ask some European kids or teenagers, and many of them have already tried Linux, used it at their schools or even at home, but have never touched a Mac machine.
What people do know about Macs and Apple is that they may have seen those big Mac & Apple advertisments on TV and on magazines, but that’s often all the experience they have of Macs. They know that Macs are supposed to look cool..
Especially in the 3rd world countries people couldn’t care less for some over-priced machines that are marketed as fashionable Ferraris of the personal computing world. Common people have no need not to mention money for Ferraris.
I recently bought a brand new iBook for only $700 after I needed to replace my Compaq laptop when it died. How is $700 asking to much. I just added the memory out of my dead Compaq to the iBook and it feels plenty fast. I’ve used the fastest PC’s out there and they don’t feel any faster unless your gonna be doing video production or playing games which I wouldn’t do on a laptop anyway. MacOS X is great. Sure it takes some getting use to coming from the Windows world but I don’t think I could ever go back to Windows full time. You people who rip Apple and MacOS X are like I use to be and try to knock something because it isn’t the norm in a Windows world. Maybe you should try it before you rip it or as least use it for more then 5 minutes before you dump it becauses it isn’t Windows.
Óh no! This is a nightmare vision
Please. Can’t we just leave thing as they are. Windows users should continue to use Windows. Mac and Linux is for the rest of us. I would rather not have my BMW-Mac-platform turned into a JoeFord platform. Please! Don’t switch!
By the way: Apple Computer is a hardware company
Small can be so beautiful
Metis, you forgot to mention Apples’ weird exchange ratio in Europe. Someone at Apple still thinks, that 1 USD is worth more that 1 EUR. Just check some European AppleStore for prices and compare them to US AppleStore. It is no wonder that Apple has such small market share in Europe, when I can fly to NY, stay here for weekend, buy a Powerbook and still have more cash left, that buying Powerbook in Europe.
“Not that I enjoyed using it. The best Linux desktops are still beyond the skills of average mortals and enjoy very limited application support”.
Biased Biased Biased.
Let’s go to my thinkings:
In difficult economic times like those we’re facing the Steve Jobs Tax is not willing to be paid by people on a budget that I think are the majority party. Once your hardware is enough for the Internet, to store your photos/video,this means 950 Euros for a more than decent 2.8Mhz HT PC (with DVD Writer, Firewire, USB 2 and so on) or even less for an AMD one, you do not need a replacement for years. Why change ?
For newcomers an Apple @ 950 Euros is simply not available.
For those who do not believe this, take a look at the Apple Italian site….That’s why Linux jumps to mind you can change w/o replacing most of your hardware. About 4 years ago when I was on Mandrake 7.x I could not believe a Fedora Core 2 would have been a reality. Ok, no driver for bleeding edge hardware accessories…but who relly needs them?
Squeeeze every single bit of power from yuor machine and get enjoyment that it’s at everybody’s availability.
I think this guy should take a carsh course on Linux before writing such useless things. I am no zealot or Linux advocate, Linux HAS it’s own problems, like Mac OS and Windows has. When you have time calculate the TCO of an apple box….
I somewhat agree with you. However, I disagree with you on several points.
dvd + standard….on pcs first.
I don’t remember if macs use DVD+R or -R, but they did have recordable DVD support in the OS before Windows. Long before, since Windows still doesn’t have it.
browser made by os company…ms beat apple.
mail app done by os company….ms beat apple.
You think Internet Explorer and Outlook Express beat Safari and Apple’s mail program? If you think Internet Explorer beats anything, I’d say you’re on drugs. But to say that it beats a nice, KHTML based browser is just askin for it…
802.11a/b/and g….macs still dont support a.
Why should they? 802.11g is just as fast as 802.11a, and enjoys lower prices and compatibility with 802.11b. “a” is a dead standard.
pci-x…pcs had first.
Errt. Wrong. You are the weakest link.
encrypted files and folders….pcs first again.
Actually, I’d say that that feature has been around longer than Windows or Mac OS… And the Drop-AES plugin for BeOS beats any other method I’ve seen so far anyhow… So I’d call that one “Apple and Microsoft both lose”…
Anyhow, that said, I love Mac OS X and I like apple hardware. But when I can get equivalent or superior PC hardware for less than half the price, it’s not that appealing.
The reason I and millions of others use Linux on our desktops is because it is open source and runs on commodity PC hardware. OS X will likely never fill that market so to compare OS X and Linux on the desktop is practically meaningless. The author’s assertion that Linux makes “no sense on the desktop” is absurd. If anything, Linux makes more sense than OS X on the desktop.
How is $700 asking to much
Ok. But quite probably you would get a better equiped PC laptop for the same price or actually cheaper. Also, Macs tend to cost more in the EU than in the USA.
Macs are ok. Maybe even worth their price? But they’re not that spectacular and revolutioanary like the Apple marketers and ads try to tell you, IMHO…
Linux is a free operating system. Not only is it free to use, it’s free to modify, examine the source, and redistribute.
You are confusing the kernel with the operating system – you can get the same user land apps that run on Linux to run with Mac OSX’s kernel. You want a specific app like MySQL or OO.org or some wierd freshmeat project, knock yourself out!.
You can examine the code for Konqueror and fix url.c at line 237 and compile it on Mac OSX. Nothing’s stopping you from doing these things on MacOSX.
best regards
Dev
This guy is a genius. He trashed Apple last week, then went out to buy shares, and now is pumping the company up! Why can’t I think of stuff like this…
I agree with everthing you said Mark, and I’ll add that until there is one “standard” desktop that day will never come. Having Gnome and KDE both having roughly equal marketshare is a nightmare for proprietary vendors. I think eventually Gnome will win the day, because even though its a technically inferior framework, the license is a lot more friendly developer friendly. And Yes, I know the qt $1500/developer/OS is not much for a company like Adobe, but if you want the polished apps that small shops and even individual developers can produce working full time then it does become a factor.
I would also buy OSX for x86 if it were available, but I know that it is never going to happen. In the meantime, if you want an alternative to Windows you pretty much have the *nix and *BSD variants out there (SkyOS looks interesting as well, but it’s a bit early to tell).
The author’s assertion that GNU/linux on the desktop is too difficult bothers me a bit (ever tried SUSE 9.1 Pro or Mandrake 10 Official? They are pretty damned easy.) but everyone is entitled to their opinion. After being a GNU/linux desktop user for a couple of months, I began to find it pretty annoying to work in a Windows environment (I have now been an exclusively GNU/linux user at home for about 3.5 years).
I’m sure that plenty of people would switch to Apple hardware/software if they got to play with it for a while and could afford the initial investment, but it is a sizable investment that most people can’t afford. The notebooks are pretty reasonably priced, but on the desktop side you can get a pretty spanky machine for less cash. If I could just get that raise…
I’m sorry but you don’t use a desktop OS to design 140 page catalogs. You use a specialized workstation. And Linux does have apps; high quality database programs, office suites, desktop publishing software, graphics and photo manipulation apps, a multitude of development environments for web services and applications to mention a few.
You know, Joe User doesn’t need photoshop, illustrator, dreamweaver mx, indesign, Microsoft Office, Miscrosoft Visual Studio et al. You need to ask yourself how many computer users are graphic designers. Then you’d realize my Microsoft views Linux as a threat and why Apple shouldn’t even attempt to be competitive with open source.
You can’t beat free, period.
Whatever … my TiBook runs OS X, and Yellowdog Linux (Dual boot), the PC sits in a corner as a file server/firewall/router, and runs Linux … no Microsoft products, none … zero … zilch … nada. Isn’t that the whole point? Kick Microsoft where it hurts, and support the underdog(s). Who wants to re-install Windows every 3 weeks?
What the writer said is correct, OS X is miles ahead of Linux as a consumer desktop OS. There is nothing wrong with admitting that. The writer is incorrect in assuming that many using Linux would ever consider moving to OS X. OS X is beautiful, it’s extremely easy to use, it has big-time commercial apps such as MS Office and Adobe Photoshop but it costs $129. Overall the OS X experience is elegant, works perfectly with the hardware it’s installed on, and requires little to no setup. This is essentially the opposite of what Linux is. Linux is free but you have to be very technically minded in order to get everything working to your needs. It’s getting better but it’s nowhere near OS X in this regard. Linux will always have a large user base because it’s free and exciting for computer geeks like us but it’s going to be awhile before it can match the user experience that the Mac and OS X can provide for the average computer user.
“I don’t remember if macs use DVD+R or -R, but they did have recordable DVD support in the OS before Windows. Long before, since Windows still doesn’t have it. ”
mac just added + support within the last yr. i believe the g5 towers were first to have it. 2 yrs or so after the pc had it.
another point is apple has to include many drivers and support for many standards since so few third parties do it for them. ms it the exact opposite. support is made by the device maker etc. sure that is an issue upon first install of a fresh setup with windows as compared to a modern linux releases but in the end the support is there.
“You think Internet Explorer and Outlook Express beat Safari and Apple’s mail program? If you think Internet Explorer beats anything, I’d say you’re on drugs. But to say that it beats a nice, KHTML based browser is just askin for it…”
i meant they had them first….long before apple. and yes ie is light yrs ahead of safari as safari is so buggy it is nearly unusable. go spend some time in apple support forums and you will see the complaints. but yes it is more secure than ie.
“Why should they? 802.11g is just as fast as 802.11a, and enjoys lower prices and compatibility with 802.11b. “a” is a dead standard.”
yes “a” is dying now but when it came out it was part of the landscape that forced prices down. g is much bigger. b is bigger still. but “a” is in use by hundreds of thousands of people and they chose it as their standard. macs wont fit in those network scenarios. and “a” also has some compelling usage reasons as well…its higher price is what killed it in the end. as an example, many businesses choose it specifically because it does not broadcast a signal as far…stong close in but then dies quicly at a set distance…making for better security if it cant be picked up as far away from a building etc.
“pci-x…pcs had first.
Errt. Wrong. You are the weakest link.”
sorry do some research, pci-x was released on macs in late 2003 in the g5 towers…it was released in pcs many years before that: here is a link to press release from early 2002 about a supermicro motherboard with it: http://www.supermicro.com/newsroom/pressreleases/2002/press042502.c…
and general info on all things pci:
http://www.pcisig.com/home
“Actually, I’d say that that feature has been around longer than Windows or Mac OS… And the Drop-AES plugin for BeOS beats any other method I’ve seen so far anyhow… So I’d call that one “Apple and Microsoft both lose”…”
the article is saying why someone should switch off windows and use mac instead. my point was that ms had it before apple. it did. maybe others beat ms. i am unfamiliar.
another thing macs lack. not a single mac ships with a built in card reader of any sort. especially odd as apple killed off the floppy so long ago.
apple also is lagging in system bus speeds and memory speeds as well. pc hardware has been ahead in both areas for at least 6 yrs that i remember well.
Macs are lagging behind in system bus speeds? Am I hearing you right? I’d like to see the PC with a 1000Mhz system bus. Please.
As for the DVD thing, I would beg to correct you. Their “SuperDrive” has been around since February 19, 2001. http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2001/feb/19super.html long before it was easily available for PC’s.
And I still maintain that IE is a steaming pile of doggie doo which crashes more, has more security holes, and is less standards compliant than any other browser.
No apps? I find I have a so much of a selection of applications that I can’t decide which ones to use. While I agree certain areas are lacking there is much you can do with VMware or wine. I am able to run Macromedia Flash MX just fine (it just loads slow but once running it runs fine) while in Linux.
I found the article silly. Mac OS is not an alternative to Windows if you have to go out and buy a whole new machine to use it. I won’t buy Mac hardware… if I ever did I would probably put Linux on it.
I don’t even like Mac OSX. So I am biased. Much like the guy in the article
.
I guess Macs are not for you!
“Macs are lagging behind in system bus speeds? Am I hearing you right? I’d like to see the PC with a 1000Mhz system bus. Please”
yeah you heard right.
fastest intel bus is 800mhz
fastest amd athlon 64 and opteron bus is 1600mhz
and both are available in both towers and laptops.
the fastest bus in a mac tower is 1000mhz and in a laptop it is just 167mhz (hehe, what a joke)
“As for the DVD thing, I would beg to correct you. Their “SuperDrive” has been around since February 19, 2001. http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2001/feb/19super.html long before it was easily available for PC’s.”
sorry again. the first superdrives were made by pioneer and were available in compaqs at the same time as macs. they were also available stand alone and could be added to any pc that accepted 5.25″ optical drives. sorry.
“And I still maintain that IE is a steaming pile of doggie doo which crashes more, has more security holes, and is less standards compliant than any other browser.”
yeah but bank sites and secure login sites and flash and java and ipix and shockwave etc etc etc etc just work dont they. cant say the same about safari.
linux has no apps…useful ones
E-mail, web browsing and office work. Sorry, has them and has done for ages. Mac OS doesn’t have an office suite of its own, without relying on MS Office. The only other option is of course, Open Office.
when companies like adobe and macromedia start porting to linux, i’ll give it due respect and consideration for my small business
Macromedia has. Flash player will run on Linux. Adobe is a company producing vastly bloated, overhyped and over-expensive software. I wouldn’t shed any tears if Adobe never ported to Linux. We have free applications like the GIMP and Krita coming along, and there will always be a commercial option if people need it.
I sincerely hope you don’t run your entire business on this expensive software and something like Windows Small Business Server, otherwise you’re getting ripped off.
i cant design a 140 page catalog in gimp or some other low grade copy of adobe software.
Oh for crying out loud. I here this from clueless idiots every day. The GIMP is not designed to produce 140 page catalogues, and neither is Photoshop. You’re one of these people who use Excel for everything, aren’t you?
It is more than possible to do brochures etc. through Open Office and a desktop publishing application like Scribus (I know, I actually tried it and was pretty shocked). Anything more complex (which would be rare for a small company) and you will need a commercial option, or hire a company to do you work for you.
Before you start telling people that there are no applications, it might help you and your business if you actually used the right ones.
i cant make the high quality database driven ecommerce website my company has using linux crappy apps.
Considering that 67% of the internet is non-Microsoft and runs Apache (using PHP, Java etc.), you might want to ask yourself whether it is you who are doing something wrong here. Your comments don’t so much as to how well it is put together.
they have the office area pinned down, oh boy, i can type a letter or do a spreadsheet. is that ready for business use then????
Have you tried typing a letter or working on a spreadsheet in anything other than MS Office? No. Thought not.
linux companies should stop working on just the OS and try to make deals with companies who already have the industry standard apps.
They are not industry standard applications, and in many cases, they’re over expensive and frankly, not very good for what they are.
(adobe, macromedia, etc) im sure its possible to make native linux version of photoshop, illustrator, dreamweaver mx, indesign, etc. linux, you want users? bring the apps (the REAL ones) and we will come!!
In other words, you want the applications that you are personally familiar with ported over, and you’re going to sit down and pour scorn on everything else without ever actually having tried anything else?
I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but real professionals are able to use the apps you describe fully, and move around and learn and use others where it makes sense as well.
Seriously, if you’re spending the amounts of money that it seems that you are spending on the software above, you’re not going to be in business for very long.
the new dual 2.5ghz tower does have a 1250mhz bus
http://www.apple.com/powermac/specs.html
Windows has closed software but open hardware. Anyone can build a Windows machine, you just have to pay a little extra to put the OS on top of it.
Linux is both open software and open hardware. No added costs.
Apple is both closed software and closed hardware. They mark up both and they mark them up a lot!
Despite the similarities in implementation, the underpinnings of Apples are fundamentally a step in the wrong direction from Windows. That’s out of the frying pan, into the fire as far as I’m concerned.
There is undoubtedly value in an Apple right now in simplicity of operation and usefullness, but there is also a huge cost that overrides the value. It’s not just the added cost of the OS and hardware, the biggist cost of any operating system is not the time you spend learning how to run it effectively. In the case of Apple, that’s seriously wasted effort. I’m a Linux guy and I’ve put serious thought into branching out into OS-X. I just can’t justify it though because in the end, it seems inevitable OS-X as it exists now will die and Linux will take it’s place.
Linux will win because slowly but surely, it’s getting best-of-breed functionality and building into the most flexible and powerful OS ever. Look at IPTables or journaling filesystem support. I love the feeling of looking at some new feature in Linux and realizing that that’s really the way it should always have been done and being able to rest assured that this feature won’t go away unnecessarily. It’s easy to create something that does what it does well when you control everything about it but to make an open-ended highly configurable engine that’s the culmination of massive consensus gathering, that’s hard. That’s the monumental feat of Linux, not being “Desktop Ready” but, being designed right.
And for all the Mac bigots out there who point out that it’s not really that expensive to go with Apple’s proprietary hardware/software, I’d like to point out that I have 6 P4 class computers (various test machines and servers I use for work.) most are Dell PowerEdge 400SC’s with 2.8GHz running Linux that I spent a grand total of about $2000 purchasing . That’s the price of one equivalent speed PowerMac G5 for all 6 of my machines. Reasonable priced upgrades appropriate for each machines roll have made them seriously powerful all for about the cost of a single simple Mac rig. No thanks Apple!
FYI, Check out this link to see the good deals on 400SC’s I’ve used lately. Nothing now but it’s never long between sweet deals.
http://www.slickdeals.net/category/search/?querywords=PowerEdge
It’s a significant difference to spend double what you normally would for hardware. That is why Macintoshes don’t do well in many markets and aren’t suitable for a variety of uses, while Linux thrives in these same markets, where costs matters.
The third world is a prime example…actually, in most countries outside the US, the difference in cost is extremely important.
Minimum wage in Mexico is under $2 dollars an hour.
Coutnries like this will never move towards Mac, especially when they can support Linux and get out from under the US’s mammoth paws and begin to employ their own developers and get more money exchanging hands within their economy as a result.
Macs are great. OS X is great. But it’s hampered by the fact that it only runs on Mac/PPC.
Money is a factor, and I must admit that it stings to be told to “wake up” and purchase something I can’t afford.
Yeah, like small businesses have $5,000 dollars to spare on Adobe products. You got to be kidding me.
“If the desktop Linux people really cared about using a great operating system, they would stop trying to reinvent the wheel and rally around Mac OS X.”
If the desktop Mac people really cared about making available a great operating system to the vast majority of desktop computer users, they would stop trying to make people buy their overpriced hardware and port MacOS to run on x86 hardware.
I’d pay twice as much as Windows for that.
You got a new $700 iBook? Where, I must know, because for that price I will be more than happy to ditch my current craptop, but I’m on the Apple site right now and the iBook bottoms out at $1099.
My choice of Linux distro I use didn’t come down to the distro I liked the best, it came down to the one that worked with all the hardware on the box I installed it on.
While I won’t argue your previous points, I wanted to mention that Linux hardware support doesn’t vary at all between distros, really. AUTOMATION of configuration does, though.
Another thread taken over by the once banned, much derided Anonymous (IP: —.chvlva.adelphia.net.
Once again I marvek at all the time , enrgy and bad vibes this guy puts out on the mac threads.
Ok, reality check to everyone. Linux doesn’t have a unified driving force behind it. It’s starting to become a very usable desktop OS only because of it’s open source nature, and the fact that there are people out there who want to see it improve. I honestly don’t know why people assume that “Linux” is should “make a move” on Windows. Seriously, people, Linux will do it’s own thing. I doubt most developers really care that windows or macos is “better”, “more popular”, or whatever. They will do things the way they feel it needs to be done. However don’t be fooled. Installing Linux is child’s play, and using it is cake. Install SuSE 9.1 sometime… you’ll like it.
Now, onto the MacOSX vs Windows topic. Give me a break. Seriously. Why are we even discussing this? If you use MacOSX, you’ll find why people love it; however till it can run on PC hardware NATIVELY, it will be nothing more than an elite OS run on elite HW.
Ah, the final point I want to make. Why do you bother comparing MacOSX to Linux? The new X server for Linux is going to have a good deal of OSX’s features (drop shadows, etc.) however Linux is it’s own thing. If it should ever take over the world it won’t be because of stupid mistakes by M$, or Apple. It will be because it has become a better OS than either. If it never does, who cares? I’m still going to run it, and love it. How could you not love the lack of spyware, or popups?
Linux is both open software and open hardware. No added costs.
Excuse me what do you mean Open Hardware?. Do you have the chip masks for Intel’s Xeon or how about masks for Nvidia’s GPUs? Do you have the bios listing for Award BIOS?
Apple is both closed software and closed hardware. They mark up both and they mark them up a lot!
Like what?. Don’t like Apple’s disks, buy WD/Maxtor. Don’t like Apple’s monitor, buy a ViewSonic, don’t like Apple’s DVD writer, buy Lacie. Don’t like Apple’s audio, buy any Firewire/USB audio device. Don’t like Apple’s ATI cards, buy Nvidias.
Apple’s Mac machines are like buying a Dell or a Sony.
If you want to do a DIY job, sure, Macs aren’t for you. But so are many things in life – you want to build a kit car, fine, no problems but don’t bash BMW or Ford for providing their engine in their models.
best regards
Dev
“Don’t like Apple’s monitor, buy a ViewSonic” as long as you have an adapter. apple has improved about proprietary connectors and such though.
“don’t like Apple’s DVD writer, buy Lacie”
many third party dvd and cd drives dont work with apples disk burn software nor in itunes and idvd and dvd studio pro…thats why hack jobs like patchburn are made.
“Don’t like Apple’s audio, buy any Firewire/USB audio device”
fewer choices for add in pci based cards.
“Don’t like Apple’s ATI cards, buy Nvidias.”
third party video cards are rare for apple and most need to have warranties voided by hacking the flash rom to make them work in a mac (few work doing this). ati does release mac only add in cards…usually about 12-18 months after they are available for macs.
the biggest thing in the mac though is the proprietary motherboard and boot rom. no options for that.
if i buy a dell tower i can replace every single component in it. apple is substantially more closed down.
Not this again…. You have a port its called Darwin.
You are not going to get OS X with Aqua Interface on X86. It just isn’t going to happen, so get over it already. Apple does a great job in the area of Quality Assurance and they don’t need to muck up the product by supporting multiple x86 processors.
Why do you all come back here again and again and preach the virtues of your team, ahem, I mean your platform? You all know that nobody cares about your opinions. You all certainly don’t care about each others’ opinions. There is no such thing as the best computer, OS, whatever… it is all just lifestyle. I suspect that Linux, Mac, and yes, even Windows are all going to be around for a long time.
But as far as the article is concerned, the title says it all. The average (non-OS News readin’) user who has typically used Windows for a while is undoubtedly tired of the vortex we call Windows XP. Without the assurance that a new even better Windows is around the corner to save as all from Satan’s power and with Apple already an established household brand name, it is quite logical for Apple to be the next in line. If some Linux vendor had the resources of Apple or MS to invest in a swanky new ad campain making Linux seem more like a lifestyle then who knows…..
mac just added + support within the last yr. i believe the g5 towers were first to have it. 2 yrs or so after the pc had it.
Let’s not get into the +R/RW vs -RW/R standards war. Drive manufacturers are already in that war. The only thing manufacturers like Dell and Apple can do is pick one they think will win and go with it. Dell supports ony the + format and not the -. Now with dual format drives maufacturers can chose both +and – standards.
I think your arguments are just for the sake of arguing pointlessly and have no basis in logic what so ever.
sorry do some research, pci-x was released on macs in late 2003 in the g5 towers…it was released in pcs many years before that: here is a link to press release from early 2002 about a supermicro motherboard with it: http://www.supermicro.com/newsroom/pressreleases/2002/press042502.c…..
Most PCs on the market today still come with 32 bit 33 mhz PCI slots. even highend gaming machines. There are some new ones with PCI-E for graphics and x1 slots but those still only have PCI slots not PCI-X,
I’d pay twice as much as Windows for that.
Yeah, right.
“Apple does a great job in the area of Quality Assurance and they don’t need to muck up the product by supporting multiple x86 processors.”
g4 towers with defective power supplies
g4 powerbooks with recalled batteries
ipods with short lifespan batteries
g4 powerbooks and ibooks with defective logic boards
g4 powerbooks and ibooks with spots on the lcds
os updates that eat firewire hard drive data
os updates that completely shut down ethernet
thats just the last 2 yrs.
A Mac is just a complete solution, and it kind of is the only option if you want a complete all-in-one non-MS solution in your home. No Linux or whatever can compete with that.
But, I honestly don’t think Linux users will ever switch to OS X en mass. Linux and Mac OS X are complete opposites. Linux users tend to look at more than just slickness, ease of use etc. They enjoy the “free” nature of Linux, and a Mac won’t be able to compete on that ground.
i meant they had them first….long before apple. and yes ie is light yrs ahead of safari as safari is so buggy it is nearly unusable. go spend some time in apple support forums and you will see the complaints. but yes it is more secure than ie.
Sorry, IE is light years behind Safari. No tabbed browsing, no pop blocking. Safari is far from buggy. I have been using it for a year and had two crashes.
Can’t say the same for IE or even mozilla.
… inevitable long price comparison …
Wow, this must be the Mac-discussion equivalent of Godwin’s Law; right down to the corollary.
I think eventually Gnome will win the day, because even though its a technically inferior framework, the license is a lot more friendly developer friendly.
Developers do not care about paying for development tools, even the small ones (and there’s no reason why you can’t have LGPL development tools for KDE).
If it is technically inferior then no developer worth his salt will touch it over Windows with a ten-foot bargepole. There’s just no reason to.
“Let’s not get into the +R/RW vs -RW/R standards war. Drive manufacturers are already in that war. The only thing manufacturers like Dell and Apple can do is pick one they think will win and go with it. Dell supports ony the + format and not the -. Now with dual format drives maufacturers can chose both +and – standards.”
yeah but i as a consumer using windows get to choose. and have been able to choose for years. i can buy dell if i want +. or if i have a pipeline that uses – or both i go elsewhere…using windows and any hardware maker that fits me.
“Most PCs on the market today still come with 32 bit 33 mhz PCI slots. even highend gaming machines. There are some new ones with PCI-E for graphics and x1 slots but those still only have PCI slots not PCI-X”
you are correct. again though, i have the choice. if i building a server or a high end workstation that needs it, i buy it. its a choice and its been there for years.
the point isnt that some $349 pc doesnt have it. we know that. if we buy that we are choosing price over feature set. there is no $349 choice from apple. If i want to spend $3k on a high end workstation or server I will get pci-x if my needs call for it.
Gamers dont need pci-x slots generally, so their $3k rig instead uses the money spent on higher end components that make a difference like better 5.1 speakers, or better video cards, or higher rpm sata drives etc etc.
on a pc the end user has CHOICE.
My choice of Linux distro I use didn’t come down to the distro I liked the best, it came down to the one that worked with all the hardware on the box I installed it on.
While I won’t argue your previous points, I wanted to mention that Linux hardware support doesn’t vary at all between distros, really. AUTOMATION of configuration does, though.
True, I should have specified that’s what I meant. I chose my Linux distribution based on what was easily set up by default. In Suse and Fedora, my video does not go higher than 1024 X 768, while Mandrake or Mepis allow me to go to 1280 x 1024 (which for a desktop on a 21″ monitor looks better). But then Mandrake would not detect my sound or NIC card, while Suse discovered my NIC but not sound, Fedora detected everything, just had the resolution issue. I’m sure with a lot of research I could probably find out how to fix everything, just haven’t had the time; so I decided to go with what worked more than the rest.
I get sick and tired of people bashing Apple because Apple demands a decent price for its high quality hardware/software. Have you looked at the price of the new iMac lately? How much wintel crap does thet give you? If Apple would ever choose to support i86 hardware I would be deeply insulted. If you want to be cheap go for linux/Intel, but don’t try to pull Apple down to the Wintel level, not everybody prefers to eat at MacDonald’s.
“Sorry, IE is light years behind Safari. No tabbed browsing, no pop blocking. Safari is far from buggy. I have been using it for a year and had two crashes.
Can’t say the same for IE or even mozilla.”
ooops. ie 6 in svc pk 2 has pop up blocking.
the google toolbar, the yahoo toolbar, the msn toolbar, avant browser, my ie2, etc etc add pop up blocking and tabbed browsing for ie users for free.
the user gets to choose. and they have been choices for years.
no need to buy a new os to get them either. they are all free downloads and free updates. does safari work on os 9? os 9 was apples default os up until what 2002? no support on a 2 yr old os for their new browser?
g4 powerbooks with recalled batteries
Only one particular batch made in January 2003 by LG. Mine was not recalled.
IBM recalled 533,000 power supplies. Dell has done recalls too. Your point?
http://support.dell.com/support/batteryrecall/index.aspx/en/main?c=…
os updates that eat firewire hard drive data
Tracked to a hardware bug in the chip. Manufacturer calimed to have fixed the bug with a firmware but the issue resurfaced with panther.
os updates that completely shut down ethernet
Never had an OS update do that.
Toshiba laptops have major display problems with oxidized regulators that blank the backlight of intermittently. I have a laptop that does that.
PCs have worse problems. That is the bane of manufacturing. It happens to every company that has to manufacture anything. Stop bringing up ridiculous reasoning in defending PCs.
if i buy a dell tower i can replace every single component in it. apple is substantially more closed down.
And I guess you called Dell for warranty support for your ultra-modded Dell tower when it took a dive during a Slash-dot effect right?
“Dude, you’re getting a Dell” because it has all the pieces needed for running Doom3 or doing your homework – you’re not getting a Dell just because you want to go out and plugin a Fry’s Labor Day special $9.99 video card.
Have you ever tried to buy a motherboard from Dell? Have you ever tried to fix an ASUS mobo in a Compaq machine?. Nah….didn’t think so.
Even PCs can be highly proprietary when they want to be.
best regards
Dev
9 times out of ten the resolution issue you’re having is from inaccurate vertical and horizontal refresh rates. The right ones should be printed on the back of your monitor (it usually is, anyway); if not, you could find them online. After that, it’s just a matter of popping them into your X configuration and tacking on “1280×1024”.
Windows has closed software but open hardware.
Windows is closed source software. It is not hardware.
Linux is both open software and open hardware. No added costs.
Linux is open source software. It is not hardware.
Apple is both closed software and closed hardware.
Apple is a computer company, not hardware or software, open, closed, or otherwise.
Despite the similarities in implementation, the underpinnings of Apples are fundamentally a step in the wrong direction from Windows.
Why? Because they leverage both open source software (Darwin etc) and open standards (OpenStep etc)?
I just can’t justify it though because in the end, it seems inevitable OS-X as it exists now will die and Linux will take it’s place.
Now you’re just getting delusional.
Linux will win because slowly but surely, it’s getting best-of-breed functionality and building into the most flexible and powerful OS ever.
??? Most flexible and powerful? Cult of Linus or what? It’s aging monolithic architecture is the reason why it takes so long to add new features and even longer to debug them. More promising OS projects will inevitably surpass Linux technologically, with fewer human resourses as their saner designs are far more flexible than this ultimate evolution of 1970’s technology (Linux).
Look at IPTables or journaling filesystem support.
OpenBSD’s PF is by far a superior firewall solution, and damned near *every* major OS nowadays has journalling filesystems, or equivelant functionality.
I love the feeling of looking at some new feature in Linux and realizing that that’s really the way it should always have been done and being able to rest assured that this feature won’t go away unnecessarily.
There you go being all delusional again. The Linux developers rip out entire subsystems, and replace them with new and untested code all the time, never giving anything time to mature. Add to that fact that the top developers (Linus especially) are dead set against implementing and using *standard* quality control technologies like kernel debuggers, and it’s not suprising that so many people have issues with each new release of this permenantly beta quality software.
It’s easy to create something that does what it does well when you control everything about it but to make an open-ended highly configurable engine that’s the culmination of massive consensus gathering, that’s hard.
Nothing about Linux is easy, and there is very little “control.” Because Linux is developed as just one small part of a useful operating system, it is a nightmare to make it do anything useful. Each and every part of the final operating system are developed pretty much independantly, which ultimately leads to cobbled together systems with absolutely abominable integration, and bloated software (duplication of functionality).
That’s the monumental feat of Linux, not being “Desktop Ready” but, being designed right.
Linux isn’t designed exaclty, it evolves, and there are quite a few things about it that just don’t sit too well with any number of people. It’s always too new, and too untested, and it’s current position as scalability champion of the open source world was not so far beyond that of a few of the others as to be guarantied this position forever. FreeBSD, NetBSD were very close behind, and DragonFly is also showing great promise.
But whatever. You’ll see this as “just another anti-Linux rant” and ignore it while going about your business. Whatever. You will see, and if your clueless comments are any indication, you’re going to be in for quite a shock. By no means do I expect these more worthy systems to outgrow Linux in popularity, but then, I guess that few people in their right minds would expect even Linux to dethrone Windows in the longrun, despite the hype upon which it’s most virulent advocates feed.
Technological superiority and popularity rarely go hand in hand, and I’ll not be too suprised too see a future in which the overhyped is more often installed than better things.
ooops. ie 6 in svc pk 2 has pop up blocking.
the google toolbar, the yahoo toolbar, the msn toolbar, avant browser, my ie2, etc etc add pop up blocking and tabbed browsing for ie users for free.
Yeah service pack 2 breaks tonnes of software.
I thought you were talking about default features and not addons. Get the discussion straight.
ou are correct. again though, i have the choice. if i building a server or a high end workstation that needs it, i buy it. its a choice and its been there for years.
the point isnt that some $349 pc doesnt have it. we know that. if we buy that we are choosing price over feature set. there is no $349 choice from apple. If i want to spend $3k on a high end workstation or server I will get pci-x if my needs call for it.
Gamers dont need pci-x slots generally, so their $3k rig instead uses the money spent on higher end components that make a difference like better 5.1 speakers, or better video cards, or higher rpm sata drives etc etc.
on a pc the end user has CHOICE.
No even $3000 boxes from alienware don’t have it. Apple users get a choice as well. Get an iMac if you don;t need slots. Get a lowend G5 wihtout PCI-X or a highend with PCI-X.
yeah but i as a consumer using windows get to choose. and have been able to choose for years. i can buy dell if i want +. or if i have a pipeline that uses – or both i go elsewhere…using windows and any hardware maker that fits me.
Mac users can get a firewire drive enclosure and get any burner they fancy. Get Toast and get support. Again choice.
“PCs have worse problems. That is the bane of manufacturing. It happens to every company that has to manufacture anything. Stop bringing up ridiculous reasoning in defending PCs.”
my point is that these are the days when apple uses the exact same contract manufacturers in asia to build macs that others use to make pcs. quality control is nowhere near what it was 10 or 15 yrs ago when apple employees made macs with clearly higher quality components.
“And I guess you called Dell for warranty support for your ultra-modded Dell tower when it took a dive during a Slash-dot effect right?”
no most people dont mod an under warnanty machine, but since apple has only a standard one yr warranty it is easy to want to upgrade it when out of warranty. no calls go back to them for support then.
“Have you ever tried to buy a motherboard from Dell? Have you ever tried to fix an ASUS mobo in a Compaq machine?. Nah….didn’t think so.”
no if a pc is under warranty it gets a new motherboard from the maker but if you have 3 yr old pc that had 1 yr warranty you can buy virtually any atx motherboard to replace an atx motherboard in a dell or a compaq. there are motherboard standards and all can be bought from third party vendors.
the exception to that is proprietary designs in laptops and all in one and mini pcs etc. standard towers can have their motherboards replaced by third parties easily. macs cannot.
“…as soon as we don’t have to pay the Steve Jobs hardware tax. Give us the port to x86. Until that happens OSX and Apple hardware will continue to slide into irrelevance.”
I think Lumbergh has a damn good point there, and I think it would be a good move for Apple too. I really think that apple could easily end the MS monopoly if they took this step.
Name another OS that is secure, stable with a well designed UI that is user friendly, and has a good selection of well known applications and games. – and a great shell too!
Personally, I can’t afford the expense of a complete new system, so switching to apple is not going to happen. My computers are kept up-to-date by upgrading a bit here and a bit there. However if I could get OS-X for my PC, I’d be quite happy to pay a premium for it.
…and I’d rather pay a software tax to Steve Jobs than to Bill Gates.
“Pointless arguments”
multiple options are pointless?
free options are pointless?
who put some restriction on things by saying it is only the default configuration?
“Yeah service pack 2 breaks tonnes of software”
service pack 2 breaks a tiny percentage of software. most breakage you refer to is simply a matter of new firewall restricting web access and since that is doing what it is supposed to do, that isnt breakage, it is just configuration settings that need to be tweaked.
“No even $3000 boxes from alienware don’t have it”
gamers buying from alienware can choose to buy a pc from dozens of other vendors if they need pci-x and alienware doesnt offer it as a feature. where you gonna buy a mac that uses 3d workstation video cards like the firegl and quadro cards? fact remains pci-x was on pcs years before it was on macs.
“Mac users can get a firewire drive enclosure and get any burner they fancy. Get Toast and get support. Again choice.”
yeah they have to spend more to get functionality that apple wont give them free. toast isnt free. when you buy that same dvd burner and enclosure for a pc it comes with software (if you need it) that works on windows. if you dont need the software you can buy an oem model with no software for even less. more choice on pc at better prices and you dont need to shell out extra cash for features that apple denies you.
btw are there any free firewalls for mac os 9 (apples default os up until january 2002? how many millions of mac os 9 and older users have no firewall because they are unwilling to pay for a firewall?
meanwhile on windows you can get very competent free firewalls from both zonealarm and sygate that work all the way back to windows 95 and 98!
Mac users have choice too on browsers see: OmniWeb, Camino, Firebox, Safari, iBrowser, Kidsbrowser, wKiosk, Mozilla, Netscape, Shiira, Opera, IE and Echo, just to name a few. Also there are “hackies”/addons for Safari just like there are for IE, My IE and others. Safari renders most things just fine, but again can not render everything. Then again neither can IE.
It seems to me, in a way, most of the comments are missing the point. How many people commenting here are “average users”?
…..<crickets>………….. <church bell in the distance> ………. < tumble weed> …….. <creaking saloon door>………
…<cue theme from good , bad ugly>…
they stood up at the cash register
thats why windows has over 94% desktop os marketshare.
ordinary users want what everyone else has, what everyone else can help them learn, that everyone else can communicate using the same cds and same file types…..
mac sell 3 million computers to rich users in north america, japan, and europe. and to an ever diminishing academic market as well.
the desktop is windows because 175 million end users will choose it to be so this yr.
isn’t it? But wait.. i’ve read this a couple of days ago… weeks ago.. months ago…
It is mindless to think or pretend that every computer user in this world will agree that <some pc/os> is the Best. It’s all a matter of taste and way of living. Some people may think that having faster buses is really important, while others will live and die without caring about it; those others will really pay special attention to the quality of their keyboards… you never know!
So, why having an argument (as stupid as this) about this trivial thing? Wouldn’t it be better if everybody shared his/her experience with his/her plataform/os/hardware/bathroom/whatever?
I’d have to recommend everybody to take a look at the “Six Thinking Hats” book, from Eduard Bono.
By the way, I’ve read a LOOOT of stupid comments in this thread; I like flamewars, because you can analyze people’s thinking process… (more or less) but this.. this is waaaaaaaaay beyond comprehention.
Grow up. Buy a box (any box, mac, linux, windows), do your homework, do your job, watch, and learn. (The you ough to write a book, have a kid and stuff like that).
All yours,
M.
he admits that linux users might hav light wallets, then tells them to switch to macs? thas jus 1 of the glaring ID10T errors in this right up.
Here’s what you do:
Take an eMac. Price, $799.
1. Get rid of the monitor. Give it a VGA output and plug it into the monitor you already own.
2. Ditch the fancy-schmancy designer case and put it in a standard ATX case. Designers of fancy-schmancy cases cost money.
3. You want speakers? Go out and buy speakers.
4. Shave $300 off the price. You will make that $300 back and more by ditching the monitor, speakers and fancy case, and by selling yearly OS X upgrades at $130 per. At $499 you now have a computer which is viable pricewise.
LOL, Not a bad idea, but unlikely to happen.
An whole new world of flamewars is ready to be unleashed should that box ever exist. When the market has what it apparently wants (ie: cheap, headless ppc) then the same market will start complaining about the ” lack of ” or the “inability to” or this and that…
This is, my dear mates, the same old story. I guess that it would be like asking Audi, would you mind selling me the engine and the steering wheel (i like those), but no, keep the rest…
Then we’d be saying, hey, the air filter for this engine is too expensive and that over there is much better, but it doesnt fit here… damn!
But I’d like to buy a few of those cheap ppc’s, just to populate this room with more ppcs… my one and only powerbook feels lonely in this x86 world…
chris you hit the nail on the head
if that was an option and i could even use my already owned monitor, speakers, usb mouse, usb keyboard, i would buy a mac again.
The #1 reason my next computer won’t be a G5 PowerMac is that Mac’s have a very limited upgrade path. I don’t buy a whole new computer once every few years. Instead, I hack up my existing box, replacing a motherboard/CPU here, the case in the rare event that I need a new power supply, and the graphics card every once in awhile. I can thus keep up a fairly high-end computer spending only $500-600 a year on average. But what’s the upgrade path for Macs? If shell out $3000 for a dual 2.5Ghz G5 PowerMac, I’ll be happy with the power for the next year or two, but 24 months from now, can I just spend $1000 to replace the CPU/motherboard with whatever is high-end then, or do I have to shell out $3000 again for a whole new computer?
This is a ridiculous claim for Linux users to be making. How many years in a row have we been hearing “Linux may be ready for the desktop soon!”
OS X is ready for the Desktop now. The simple fact that MS Office is available for the Mac is proof enough. I mean, OS X can offer a user the application that they will spend 90% of their time using, Linux simply cannot do that (yeah, Wine, but that is a BS solution compared to having an actual native program).
As far as Linux having more commercial apps? Name some, don’t just put your nose in the air.
The underpowered claims are ridiculous. What secratary in the WORLD needs a 3.2Ghz P4? Or even a 1.4Ghz G4 for that matter. That and you can’t directly compare a 1.4Ghz G4 to a 3.2Ghz P4. It just isn’t apples to apples.
linux has no apps…useful ones that is. when companies like adobe and macromedia start porting to linux, i’ll give it due respect and consideration for my small business, until that day, its a hobby os or web sever, etc. NOT a desktop.
Adobe acrobat reader is available for Linux. Photoshop works under WINE. Macromedia flash works under Linux. There may be no native photoshop or shockwave yet but most desktop users don’t need these things. The GIMP works fine.
OS. i cant design a 140 page catalog in gimp or some other low grade copy of adobe software.
Why would you design a catolog with Photoshop? Isn’t this best left to DTP software? Scribus works great for that.
i cant make the high quality database driven ecommerce website my company has using linux crappy apps.
Are you serious? How is PostgreSQL a crappy app? It’s stable, mature, and robust.
they have the office area pinned down, oh boy, i can type a letter or do a spreadsheet. is that ready for business use then???? NOT EVEN CLOSE.
Ask Novell or Sun how things are coming along. They don’t seem to be having a problem with it.
linux companies should stop working on just the OS and try to make deals with companies who already have the industry standard apps. (adobe, macromedia, etc) im sure its possible to make native linux version of photoshop, illustrator, dreamweaver mx, indesign, etc. linux, you want users? bring the apps (the REAL ones) and we will come!!
That’s not how it works. There is no collective “Linux” that makes deals with companies to port apps. Companies choose to support OSS, not the other way around. Look at Real. I never liked their realplayer until they came out with an open-sourced based one. It is so much nicer than the older versions.
As for photoshop, most people don’t need and it the ones that do can run it on WINE without much trouble. Illustrator doesn’t even need to be ported, we have Inkscape. Dreamweaver? Please. Is it even necessary? I prefer using something like Bluefish or even Vim. As for Flash, it’s crap anyway and is mostly unecessary. As I said before, we have Scribus and don’t need things like InDesign. The worst part about your little rant is that there are very, very few desktop users that have $2250 to thrown around for all this software. Most people don’t even spend that much on their computers. They’ll get along just fine without those apps, just as they always have.
Since I am in the path of my 1st Mac, I cannot tell (although it looks like that), yet, I don’t think that entirely true. I can see a huge market for 1/2 years (and even older) Macs. I’d still buy a Dual G4 PowerMac; think of this, those boxes are really powerful. You can actually BE productive with them. The thing is, we tend to forget what a G4 with 512 Mb Ram can do… and it will do the same two years from now. I know graphic designers working with G3-400 for god’s sake.
🙂 Get a G5, it looks cool !
fact remains pci-x was on pcs years before it was on macs.
No PCI-X was never on PCs. It was on xeon workstations are servers. As you poihnted to the super micro xeon board.
Don’t club all of AMD and Intel markets into PCs. a PC is a Personal Computer.
Apple sells personal computers no workstations. It sells PCs with workstation features but one can not call anything with a intel chip a PC.
yeah they have to spend more to get functionality that apple wont give them free. toast isnt free. when you buy that same dvd burner and enclosure for a pc it comes with software (if you need it) that works on windows. if you dont need the software you can buy an oem model with no software for even less. more choice on pc at better prices and you dont need to shell out extra cash for features that apple denies you.
Apple doesn’t deny me anything. If I chose to get better features than what Apple ships, I can and that to me is choice. What is free and not free is just pointless bickering on things that don’t matter.
Apple provides me with a computing device that just works. wintel/lintel doesn’t. I bought my first Mac an year ago and I am willing to buy more.
No wintel/lintel laptop has ever given me this. Open the lid -> login -> work->close lid, charge the battery once in a while and everything just works. I use my powerbook like I use my cellphone. Plain and simple. All those other features like 5.1 sound (which my athlon box has and I never use) is meaningless to me.
Most users want a non intimidating computing device that works like thier TV/VCR/DVD player. An appliance and not a fix me up constantly gadgets like US techies. Apple machines come closest to that. If that user experience means giving up a few features, so be it. My TV/VCR can’t be upgraded, doesn it matter? NO.
When Mac OS-X switches to x86 then I will switch to OS-X. Until then these people are wasting their breath and Linux will steel the ground from under them.
Apple needs competition on the hardware front, their prices might be ok in the States but here in Australia they are asking way too much for their hardware pricing themselves out of the market.
p.s. I do like OS-X as an operating system, just don’t want hardware lock-in.
you do realize that macs lower in value much slower than pcs? you can ebay a powermac for more than you’d get for an equivalent pc after a long time. this means that when you feel like upgrading, you can just ebay the old one and get a big $$$ value off the new one.
“Most users want a non intimidating computing device that works like thier TV/VCR/DVD player. An appliance and not a fix me up constantly gadgets like US techies. Apple machines come closest to that. If that user experience means giving up a few features, so be it. My TV/VCR can’t be upgraded, doesn it matter? NO.”
from what i see most users….about 94% of them…. want windows based computers. its what they buy, so it must be what they want. last time i checked people buy what they want do they not?
few users want macs. the market speaks. listen.
and dont act like a mac expert with your 1 yr of mac ownership…do you likewise have only one year of using mac os x and macs in general under your belt?
some around here have been using macs since they were started in 1984 and have some experience to go off of for what they write.
Why should we have to only run Intel or AMD?
Linux is about choice right?
Why not run PPC?
I run Debian Sarge on my G4. It runs excellent.
Hopfully the prices will continue on there way down as this is great hardware.
Lets remember though, sometimes you get what you pay for.
How cheap should you really go?
few users want macs. the market speaks. listen.
Apple has posted constant profits, and stock that has almost doubled in the past year. So obviously there aren’t doing badly. The market speaks, listen
and dont act like a mac expert with your 1 yr of mac ownership…do you likewise have only one year of using mac os x and macs in general under your belt?
I have used PCs since the days of the PC XT and DOS 2.0. Along with linux since the 2.0 kernels, Macs with OS 8,9.2.1 and work on the Solaris Kernel and device drivers for IO. So I think I am more than qualified to debate on an OSNews article about linux and MacOS X.
some around here have been using macs since they were started in 1984 and have some experience to go off of for what they write.
Good for them. Unfortunately you are not one of them.
Let’s see you can’t debate so you go and attack my technical skill. Sorry buddy you lose on this point too.
each factual point ive made has stood up. opinions are one thing, facts are another.
pci-x was on pcs first.
sata on pcs first
on and on and on
“Apple has posted constant profits, and stock that has almost doubled in the past year. So obviously there aren’t doing badly. The market speaks, listen”
apples stock is substantially below their all time high of $75.
apples profits per year dont even equal the amount they should make off simple interest on the $5 billion in close at hand securities and cash they own. they are losing money on operations and cover it from the investments they have with all that cash. sorry.
“Macs with OS 8,9.2.1” “Good for them. Unfortunately you are not one of them.”
sorry i owned macs from 1984 up until last yr. i still however work on them. apple 2’s before the mac as well.
“solaris”
another os that runs on x86 hardware and is likewise available for free.
the mac isnt standing up very well for itself in this thread. lotta fact and opinion against it. its on its deathbed.
it will never happen.
osX is a great os but they will never get the mass without really cheap computers like you got with pc.
apple will never make a really cheap computer that would go agins there bussnies modell.
im getting tierd to read reports that say that osx will konqurer.
it would be nice but it will never happen.
i wont say that the mac hardware isnt wort wath they charge
but most people simply refuses to pay that kind of cash and there isnt anthing wrong with that.
He and other people supporting the article forget Apple *wants* to be a niche! Steve Jobs has said multiple times he wants Apple to be the BMW of computers. Of course, I’d never buy a BMW again either, but that’s not the point.
People just don’t want to pay that much for a computer and there is zero possibility that Apple will make a x86 X or lower prices to meet Dell’s.
These articles are always the same, and sadly, I can’t believe this guy is starting a Linux v OS X argument.
Linux and OS X are pretty much out to do the same thing, get people to wake up and see that there are great alternatives.
I personally love OS X, but it has flaws. I have been puting Linux onto older Mac h/w now since 1999 (before OS X hit). I really like Linux. During my OS 9 days, Linux rocked as an OS, except for the limited applications back then compared to classic.
The main argument for Linux over OS X in my view isn’t s/w (most of what Linux has runs on OS X, so it can’t be s/w), so it must be h/w.
If I had a x86 box, or several, and had invested time and money in them, what would make me go out of my way to buy PPC h/w from Apple, no matter how good a deal it really is. Apple would need to give their h/w away in that scenario.
If I was starting from scratch however, that would be another story.
I think most other arguments are more along religious threads, or are centered around emotional attachment etc. not pure logic. People love their OS’s, so rational arguments make no sense. For a good example, go back and read the last 100 or so entries…
I love OS X, so no matter how good another OS is, it probably wont sway me to change, not in the sort term. Apple would have to start to neglect it, cancel it or something in order for me to switch 100% to Linux or (heaven forbid 😉 XP/Longhorn was an alternative. Now how rational is that? Most of us here if we are honest are the same.
I’m not saying this is a bad thing, it is what helps make the industry we are in a little more exciting I guess, but we should also be aware of it.