Longhorn’s woes may open a door for Linux—a very tiny door—but Linux just isn’t a good choice for desktops. Instead, desktop Linux proponents should wake up and switch to the Mac OS.
Longhorn’s woes may open a door for Linux—a very tiny door—but Linux just isn’t a good choice for desktops. Instead, desktop Linux proponents should wake up and switch to the Mac OS.
All this name calling of Mac zealots, Linux zealots, Windows fanboy is not going to get anybody anywhere. Computers are there as a tool; tools for productivity, hobby, entertainment and yes as a source of income. For me my personal preference is Mac OS and that is why my company has 25 of it even for sales execs. Simple reason: the first Mac I bought 6 years ago is still in the office running as a dedicated machine digital image transfer to our partners. The rest are machines that are between yesterday and 3 years old.I run an iMac that does everything from email to the company’s accounts and checking on our graphic works. I have 2 year and a half Windows PC for talking to the rest of the world (which crapped out on me twice. Virus on Windows – I have come to accept it as a sure thing as DOS.Security – as porous as my moms juice strainer. As a server I used a Mandrake distro. Tried as I might to like Linux, there is just too many combination of software and hardware possibilities and researching for it would be just too time consuming. My computers existence is to make money, most importantly, and the less time it is down, the more it makes and that is why my choice for a Mac as our main machines. Windows are just a nescessary tools to keep the business running and yes if it is possible I do hope it will shrink away. Linux is Ok but given time it will gain more usage and direction. In short use the OS that best suits your function. Cheers
Most PCs on the market today still come with 32 bit 33 mhz PCI slots. even highend gaming machines. There are some new ones with PCI-E for graphics and x1 slots but those still only have PCI slots not PCI-X,
Most PCs only _need_ 32/33 PCI slots for their target market. Indeed, the average PC would probably benefit more from multiple 32/33 buses than it would from having 64 bit PCI-X.
Most Macs (iBook, Powerbook, eMac, iMac) don’t come with slots _at all_. Until the recent model refresh, I’m pretty sure the base G5 tower only had 32/33 PCI as well.
And, of course, PCI-X slots have been available on ‘workstation’-class PCs like Dell’s Precision boxes for years.
Short version is, PCI-X has been available on PCs for longer and simply offers no real benefit for the vast bulk of consumers _anyway_.
No PCI-X was never on PCs. It was on xeon workstations are servers. As you poihnted to the super micro xeon board.
A Xeon workstation costs the same as a Powermac. That measure matters a lot more than arbitrary, hand-waving, conveniently-changing definitions like “person computer” and “workstation”.
Simple fact is if you buy a PC with PCI-X slots it costs about the same as a Mac with PCI-X. If you build your PC it’s probably a lot cheaper. What CPU it uses is *completely irrelevant*.
Apple sells personal computers no workstations. It sells PCs with workstation features but one can not call anything with a intel chip a PC.
Well, they’re sure not scared to price their “personal computers” at the same level as other manufacturer’s “workstations”.
Macs are lagging behind in system bus speeds? Am I hearing you right? I’d like to see the PC with a 1000Mhz system bus. Please.
Amazing how when there’s any feature comparisons, the only Macs that exist are the top end machines…
How about looking at the machines normal people buy (because they’re the only ones that they can afford). The iBook and Powerbook are still running bus speeds PCs left behind years ago. The iMac has only *just* had its bus speed bumped to something approaching competitive, but the machines aren’t actually available.
Definately! Perhaps its just not profitable enough, but now more than ever Apple are capable of porting OSX to x86 hardware. It seems like a golden opportunity to make many inroads into a market that shy’s away from Apple hardware.
So what are you planning on running under your x86 OS X ?
A Xeon workstation costs the same as a Powermac. That measure matters a lot more than arbitrary, hand-waving, conveniently-changing definitions like “person computer” and “workstation”.
No that is not arbitrary handwaving. Personal Computers have a well known definition. Dell understands that definition and thus doesn’t offer precision workstations on their Home & Home Office site. Infact no manufacturer ever calls thier Wrokstation line a PC.
BTW, I am not the one changing definitions. Show me a product marketed for home use with a pentium 4 cpu that has PCI-X slots. Intel markets Xeons for a particular market, servers and workstations and Pentiums for certain markets. Those are industry definitions not mine.
Also the Powermac offers similar features as a Xeon workstation for the price while also being 64-bit.
“Also the Powermac offers similar features as a Xeon workstation for the price while also being 64-bit.”
late to that too.
opteron beat g5 to the 64 bit finish line.
and just in case you didnt realize it, xeons are 64 bit now as well.
64 bit came to x86 first as well.
yet another thing that apple lagged on.
its too many to keep track of. thanks for the reminder here in the thread though.
64 bit came to x86 first as well.
Sorry the Power architecture has been 64-bit for long time. The G5 is a power4 core. Ignorance shows it’s ugly head once again.
“opteron beat g5 to the 64 bit finish line”
Yes, in servers. The PowerMac G5 is a consumer desktop. Apple won the race there.
Whoever said “Jobs is afraid of Bill Gates” should really read a good biography of him, he’s fearless (which isn’t always a good thing).
Matt
get over it.
pc = personal computer
macs are personal computers
x86 boxes are personal computers
workstations are personal computers
workstations run windows xp pro or home in some cases. both are personal computer oses.
mac os x is a personal computer os.
linux is a personal computer os in many flavors.
there are also server versions of linux, windows, and mac os.
playing games of semantics on what a workstation or a personal computer is or is not is just plain silly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer
“The term personal computer or PC has three meanings:
* IBM’s range of PCs that led to the use of the term – see IBM PC.
* A generic term used to describe microcomputers that are compatible with IBM’s specification – (discussed here)
* A generic term sometimes used to describe all microcomputers – (mentioned here)”
next and sun and sgi workstations are all discussed in the personal computer entry.
personal computer at bottom means a single person works in front of it.
the fact remains that anyone that wanted to have pci-x slots in a personal computer could do it several years before it could be done on a mac…regardless of precisely how the machine would end up being used.
the same deal holds true today for newer cutting edge stuff:
pci express is nowhere to be seen on macs.
ddr2 is nowhere to be seen on macs….
macs nearly always lag behind x86 pcs for their hardware technology.
No that is not arbitrary handwaving. Personal Computers have a well known definition.
Should be easy for you to quote that definition then.
Dell understands that definition and thus doesn’t offer precision workstations on their Home & Home Office site. Infact no manufacturer ever calls thier Wrokstation line a PC.
Apple don’t defined their lineup as ‘PC’ and ‘Workstation’, it’s ‘Consumer’ and ‘Professional’ (and that’s straight from the mouth of an Australian Apple representative, I might add). Apple’s consumer line is the i-[something] series. Their professional line is the Power-[something].
A PowerMac is not a consumer machine. It’s not targeted at home users. In the world of Dell, HP, et al, it’s a ‘Workstation’. That’s why on their web pages, they don’t mind other people referring to PowerMacs as ‘Workstations’, they make their comparisons to ‘workstations’ and even refer to the G5 as a “Unix workstation” themselves:
http://www.apple.com/powermac/reaction/
http://www.apple.com/education/hed/coe/ssu/
http://www.asia.apple.com/g5/
http://www.apple.com/powermac/performance/
BTW, I am not the one changing definitions. Show me a product marketed for home use with a pentium 4 cpu that has PCI-X slots.
Show me a Mac marketed for home use that has PCI-X slots.
One need only to look at the pages on Apple’s website to see where they are targeting the PowerMac (compared to the iMac) – and it sure as hell isn’t at home users (just in case the price tag didn’t make it obvious enough – US$3300 for the cheapest G5 + screen). What do home users care about Photoshop scores, Lightwave 3D scores and “film editing and composition” ?
Intel markets Xeons for a particular market, servers and workstations and Pentiums for certain markets. Those are industry definitions not mine.
Intel are not the only company making CPUs.
Incidentally, Intel (and probably others) sell Pentium 4 motherboards with PCI-X slots. We’ve got one in our fileserver.
The “industry” defines primarily along price points. A US$3300 computer is not a machine targeted at the typical consumer.
However, since you say the industry has standard definitions for “PC” and “Workstation”, you shouldn’t have trouble quoting those definitions.
Also the Powermac offers similar features as a Xeon workstation for the price while also being 64-bit.
Current Xeon workstations are x86-64. Not that it really matters on the G5 side yet since OS X is still only pseudo-64 bit at best.
“Sorry the Power architecture has been 64-bit for long time. The G5 is a power4 core. Ignorance shows it’s ugly head once again.”
unfortunatly the power line from ibm hasnt been used in macs…macs were slowly poking along with underpowered 32 bit g3 and g4 cpus. dont twist things about now. we all know others had 64 bit long before x86 or the g5. if you want to get all wild we can bring out windows running on itanium in a fully 64 bit environment….both servers and workstations have been out years now.
“Yes, in servers. The PowerMac G5 is a consumer desktop. Apple won the race there.”
sorry the opteron is used for both servers and workstations, and as we just learned workstations are in fact personal computers. linux on opterons was also fully 64 bit before the g5. call it a personal desktop now in an effort to avoid the simple facts. for less than a g5 macs $3k price tag you could run an opteron pc with a fully 64 bit os before the g5 even hit the market.
in fact you can run a personal computer with windows running fully 64 bit now on opteron, athlon64, and the new xeons. ms even provides the os free of charge via download.
what hoops do you have to jump through to get tiger beta?
I’m waiting impatiently for the next peeing contest. Oops, my bad! I mean the next Mac thread.
and as we just learned workstations are in fact personal computers.
May be you should tell Intel and AMD that. Straight from the horses mouth:
The ONLY Windows®-Compatible 64-bit PC Processor
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_94…
AMD Athlon™ 64 FX Processor
World’s Best PC Processor. Period.
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_88…
The world’s highest performing 2P and 4P servers are now powered by AMD Opteron™ processors.
AMD Opteron™ processors are designed with the digital professional in mind, from pre-visualization to audio post-production. With features to boost performance and a stable architecture, the AMD Opteron processor for workstations is key to the end-to-end digital production environment.
AMD and Intel both don’t think Servers and Workstations are PCs.
“utter sillyness”
What exactly are you smoking?
“pretty icons?” –> MS and KDE and Gnome seem to think those are important too.
“special genie effects in the dock? “–>MS loves this just as much as Apple
“ichat…”–>Actually pc’s have not been able to do AIM video/audio chat up till last month when AOL was legaly able too…check your facts doody”
“fast user switching….again windows had first.–> check your data dood, Windows still doesn’t do it completely (but other Uni do)”
“802.11a/b/and g….” last time I checked centrino2 which is not out yet is going to support a; otherwise just like PC’s macs have been able to do it at the same time when 3rd party devs made this available.
“pci-x…pcs had first.” in which planet? find a pc with PCI-X and I will be so proud of you… I said a PC not a server nor a workstation.
“ata 100 and ata 133…pcs had first.”–>wait a sec are we talking about an industry standard which PC’s have added via pci cards at the same time as Macs?
“usb 2.0….pcs had first” –>firewire800? macs had that first dood.
“built in tv tuners….pcs have first still no option from apple.”
in 1993 I bought from Apple a MacTV, it was Black (wayyyy before Dell or IBM) and It had a 181 Channel TV tuner…http://applemuseum.bott.org/sections/computers/mactv.html
please check your references dood, anything PC industry thinks up is really a copy from APPLE, AMIGA, NEXT, DEC, years ago.
“media center pcs…not with apple.”–> again check your sources dood, do you need more links?
F…It just go trough a History lesson here:
http://applemuseum.bott.org/
“tablet pcs….not with apple.” –> and we all know who Pioneered this??? Microsoft???… think about Newton, and Psion, and Palm… dood.
“pocket pcs….not with apple. “–> now this is the true sign of an ignorante KRAK smoker… wtf, do we all not remember the Newton?
“portable media centers….not with apple. ”
hahem DDDOOOOOOODDDDD…..
“dual layer dvd burning…not with apple. ”
neither with MS for that matter… but you know again since we are talking about industry standard hardware supported by Roxio on both platform equally, then I guess you can say ….. heuh…. NOTHING!!!!
dvd + standard….on pcs first. –> DVDRAM; and later DVD- standard on PMacs Standard wayyyyy before the pc.
“52x cd burning…still not available on any mac.” please come to my house and tell my industry standard $25 drive to Jump out of the G4 it sits in.
“native dolby 5.1…still no mac does it.” ok so maybe you win in this…wait no I don’t think so first of all most production of 5.1 sound is done on macs with Protools and other mac centric tools (oh wait protools is also on the PC, but wait look at their sales #’s it mostly sells for the mac, “zut alors!”
further more just like in the PC world add on cards such as Creative’s “Live!” have been available for a long long time.
“browser made by os company…ms beat apple.” –> OpenSource Browser expanded and solidified by OS company, with no constant security holes, no abuses of non standard code? oh wait isn’t that “SAFARI” of konquerer heritage?
“mail app done by os company….ms beat apple.”–> Unix Standard Mail app with a nice graphical front end, without serious Exploits to its name, with UNIX proven security, and no real downs… hmmm are we talking Mail APP?
OK the thing about all MAC vs PC threads on this site is that a lot of people have absolutely no point of reference.
I know it is not possible for most to own enough machines to run all of the possible oses out there, but please don’t make bold ignorant statements and expect not to be burned…
I am not rich nor a real geek, I can’t program worth a damn try as I may, (I’ve been trying since 1983 with Basic on my Apple IIe when I was 10) but I have been obssessed with computers since 1982. since then I have had mostly Apples including a Mac128k, a AppleII, IIe and a IIgs. But I have also had A commodore Amiga4000, a Tandy something rather, and then in the 90’s almost every Mac clone including a Motorolla CHRP (trough a person working at Lucent, it ran WinNT3.5 for PPC) I had a Sun laptop, I ran BeOS on PPC looong before I ran it on a PC, I also ran MKLinux on my PPC601 machines (powercomputing Power110, and Power80) troughout all of this I’ve also had most intel machines starting from a 386, running DOS morphing into a 486 running win311. and then on and on trough every MS os possible. (oh I also had an indiglo with Irix, and an alpha with NT4, and installed open/free bsd on sparc/PPC/and x86)
you may ask why I’ve had so many different computers, well a lot of them where rejects or retired, I am constantly checking out all the different os’s and platform capabilities. it’s funny how many people here and elsewhere talk about the “oposing” os without any idea of what they are talking about apart from going to that os’s specs page and comparing the specs with their os.
not enough.
All the computers I’ve had I had them for little or next to nothing.
sure it takes space but at least go to the Apple store and play with it a bit.
The thing that windows users don’t get about OSX is that it is a Unix based os and because of that has a wide wide wide wealth or super advanced applications to choose from; including most Linux apps… The thing that Unix/Linux users don’t get is that you can get almost every major windows APP and even most mainstream games on OSX I mean a huge order of magnitude over Linux. Most mainstream products from adobe/Macromedia/Microsoft/quark/oracle/IBM/Avid/Alias/Digidesign/Core l/Borland/Metroworks/ etc… all these products cover Business, AV, Graphics, Home Automation, Home Theater, Theather, CRM, ERP, etc… These are all of the commercial apps supplementing the HUGE collection of Open Source packages that have been ported over to OSX, by the likes of the FINK project, as well as individual projects (like VLC).
Really funny comments like “the mac isnt standing up very well for itself in this thread. lotta fact and opinion against it. its on its deathbed.”
or even better “yeah, OSX might be great, but I cringe before corporate vendor lock-in. Linux has reached a fine level on the desktop and I have faith that open source will evolve at a rapid pace.”
“the mac isn’t standing well in this thread…”? ok can I have some of this smoke dood? are your serious…
it’s like saying man since everyone and their mothers gets food at McDonalds it means it is really really good food. Tasty and nutritious.
KRAK.
Corporate vendor lock in? you mean you make your own processor with your own hard drive made out of play dough?
are you on KRAK?
What are you using one of those open source processors with an open source motherboard?
or are Taiwanese corporations not evil?
I mean come on, we are talking about apple motherboards made by the same companies who make PC motherboards, further more OSX is technically way way way more open then Windows will ever be; ever. It’s no Linux for sure but
it’s still approved as an OSS compliant os.
anyway this is all pointless.
PS: PPC hardware can run as many oses as X86 if not more. especially since PPC can actually emulate x86 at resonable speeds (no Pear pc bs)x
dont make definitions for words.
corporations do not control our language.
nor do marketers.
http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=personal+compu…
“Main Entry: personal computer
Function: noun
: a general-purpose computer equipped with a microprocessor and designed to run especially commercial software (as a word processor or World Wide Web browser) for an individual user”
fits the bill of a workstation. an individual using a computer with a stand alone cpu that runs programs.
dont be so difficult.
http://www.britannica.com/search?query=personal+computer&submit=Fin…
“1) personal computer
(PC), a computer designed for use by only one person at a time. A personal computer is a type of microcomputer”
http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=400278&query=personal%…
“personal computer (PC)
Microcomputer designed for use by one person at a time.
A typical PC assemblage comprises a CPU; internal memory consisting of RAM and ROM; data storage devices (including a hard disc, a floppy disc, or CD-ROM); and input/output devices (including a display screen, keyboard, mouse, and printer). The PC industry began in 1977 when Apple Computer introduced the Apple II. Radio Shack and Commodore Business Machines also introduced PCs that year. IBM entered the PC market in 1981. The IBM PC, with increased memory capacity and backed by IBM’s large sales organization, quickly became the industry standard. Apple’s Macintosh (1984) was particularly useful for desktop publishing. Microsoft Corp. introduced MS Windows (1985), a graphical user interface that gave PCs many of the capabilities of the Macintosh, initially as an overlay of MS-DOS. Windows went on to replace MS-DOS as the dominant operating system for personal computers. Uses of PCs multiplied as the machines became more powerful and application software proliferated. Today, PCs are used for word processing, Internet access, and many other daily tasks.”
video editing by a professional sitting in front of a workstation is a daily task.
a 3d artist working in 3dsmax by themselves in front of a workstation is working on their “personal computer” sitting on their personal desk in their personal cubicle or office.
man o man.
“”ichat…”–>Actually pc’s have not been able to do AIM video/audio chat up till last month when AOL was legaly able too…check your facts doody””
windows has had netmeeting that does whiteboard, video, and voice chat for about 9 yrs.
seabass, nearly everything you wrote is inaccurate so i wont even bother responding any further.
built in tv tuners….pcs have first still no option from apple.
Actually, way back in the early ’90s the Mac Quadra AVs did have this capability.
I’m a Mac zealot and i’m unable to explain why one should chose for MacOSX instead of Linux. I’m also not aware of current developments in the OSS world. Does that make me a clueless writer?
Thank you for addressing my concerns.
Regards,
— David Coursey
*rolleyes*
“PS: PPC hardware can run as many oses as X86 if not more. especially since PPC can actually emulate x86 at resonable speeds (no Pear pc bs)x”
thats why apple even broke their current hardware to forbid booting os 9. they are so desperate to control their users they sell hardware today that wont even boot their standard os that shipped as the default up until january of 2002.
i can just see dell or ibm or any pc maker making a pc that forbid usage of windows 2000, windows me, windows 98.
not that is proprietary folks. that is lock in. that is control. that is herding your users as if you the corporation know better than what the consumer needs or wants.
Lets all give a hand to Netmeeting, the groundbreaking product that changed our lives as we know it!
Are you nuts Xwhat_ever86-users!
My name iZ Macromedia, Adobe or Microsoft. Now that Apple Computer Inc has made an Xwhat_ever86 edition of the Mac OS X Unix operating system, we will no longer be producing a Mac OS X PowerPC editon of our software. We will only maintain a single Xwhat_ever86 Wintel version of our Mac OS X version application software. We have also discontinued our ports for the Linux platform as one Unix version is enough!
Goodbye
Elementary maths: 1+1 = 2
Your business skills are less than 1+1
Rants like this would be a lot more tolerable if they came attached to a free dual-cpu PowerMac G5 that’s preloaded with Photoshop, InDesign, Final Cut Pro, MS Office, and Doom 3, and connected to a 23″ apple cinema display.
Until then, I’ll keep using Linux. It’s free, most of the apps are free, and it runs on hardware I already own.
“built in tv tuners….pcs have first still no option from apple.
Actually, way back in the early ’90s the Mac Quadra AVs did have this capability.
”
if we go back far enough we can show that macs were clearly superior to x86 pcs.
i agree wholeheartedly. i owned and used macs back when they were groundbreaking and had a substantial lead over pcs in both the os and the hardware.
but apple cant rest on 15 or 20 yr old history.
but TODAY, apple ships no macs with a tv tuner. they have no tablet pc, they have no media center pc, they have no pocket devices beyond an mp3 player.
Um, no. Lock in is where you make you products incompatible with OTHER vendors, so the masses can’t switch to another system if it becomes better than what they currently have.
Like windows networking mess, or .doc, or mediaplayer(who needs mp3 anyway?)
I like your thinking though. The politics behind apple’s decision was to push people off their old platform. Microsoft on the other hand has always supported backwards compatibility. Now look at how the 2 different OSes evolved. One is clean, secure and quickly developing. The other one had to ditch its backwards compat. model with SP2 because security became such a horrible problem.
“It would be great if the contest were between two worthy operating systems, like Mac and XP/Longhorn. But Linux vs. Longhorn?”
Basically he says Linux isn’t worthy! The funny thing is for one MacOSX benefitted from Linux its “unworthiness” by using GPL source. And don’t forget the BSDs. He also doesn’t argument why he wants 2. Why not more diversity instead? I want 20.
I have no doubt on the impact of Longhorn, albeit also for the marketing bumps from MS who are most likely gonna be succesful marketing it.
But Linux, with more user-friendly DE’s, ReiserFS4/DB-like FSes, Freedesktop.org and many more developments (more games, unlike MacOSX) is gaining more and more momentum. Apple has only the luck it controls some multimedia corporations and some others won’t port to Linux. Who knows what’s gonna happen to the latter?
Apple is in deep shit with the Linux desktop on the longer run. Zealots like this one are trying to draw that attention away with their mindless rubbish propaganda. But it surely looks like both Longhorn and Linux are gonna be a lot better than right now, leaning to more user-friendliness.
When the sheep are over the dam (commercial efforts) more and more then it’ll be a danger to Apple. They know that damn well. I foresee they’re gonna use a patent minefield on new or “new” innovations. Without their unique apps, there’s no reason to buy their slower hardware for a higher price, so IBM and Motorola have some work to compete with Intel. On that point, i wish them the best, because more diversity in the hardware industry for both servers and desktops is also a Good Thing IMO.
Apple can not buy enought G5’s to support a much higher demand for their systems. They can not buy what their supliers are unable to sell.
Just something to think about.
“The other one had to ditch its backwards compat. model with SP2 because security became such a horrible problem.”
every app i was running a few weeks ago runs to today with service pack 2. i have yet to see one problem on my test machine. some people are having issues with the new firewall being on by default. and yes some apps do break with a major os update. all have that.
i updated os x at every step from the first release through os x 10.2.8 jaguar and at each point it broke many more apps than i have had break even moving from win98 to win2k or win xp.
os x completely broke the mold away from the classic mac os. no apps ran natively in x. few ran well in classic mode.
“Like windows networking mess, or .doc, or mediaplayer(who needs mp3 anyway?)”
i can download and install free many apps that use .doc file format…abiword as an example. many media players play ms file formats as well. on x86 hardware i can install literally 200 different versions of linux. many flavors of unix, including one of the most rock solid flavors ever made: solaris. and solaris on x86 is free as well.
no lock in on those scores you mentioned.
video editing by a professional sitting in front of a workstation is a daily task.
a 3d artist working in 3dsmax by themselves in front of a workstation is working on their “personal computer” sitting on their personal desk in their personal cubicle or office.
Well consulting a dictionary for a workstation reveals:
high-performance computer system that is basically designed for a single user and has advanced graphics capabilities, large storage capacity, and a powerful microprocessor (central processing unit). A workstation is more capable than a personal computer (PC) but is less advanced than a midrange computer (which can manage a large network of peripheral PCs or workstations…
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=1516&tocid=0&query=workstat…
Since the dictionary just doesn’t redirect you to the definition of the word PC it is a different word all together.
but TODAY, apple ships no macs with a tv tuner. they have no tablet pc, they have no media center pc, they have no pocket devices beyond an mp3 player.
The tablet PC is a failure once again. There is no need for a media PC. Today’s apples work as media hubs without special software, it’s all there and it works.
Why should Apple make more pokcet devices?
Um, no. Lock in is where you make you products incompatible with OTHER vendors, so the masses can’t switch to another system if it becomes better than what they currently have.
Like windows networking mess, or .doc, or mediaplayer(who needs mp3 anyway?)
What makes you think it’s any easier to switch from Macs to $SOME_OTHER_PLATFORM than it is to switch away from Windows networking (mess ? Not sure what you mean.), DOC files or media player ?
look at how apple supports third party developers
at each point release of os x, apple has intentionally broken third party haxies that long time mac users love because it enables them to make their os x more like the classic mac os.
break them windows shades.
break asm
break fruit menu
apple has such control issues they dont even want you changing the os to suit your needs.
its disgusting.
meanwhile ms beta tests svc pk 2 for half a yr and provides prominent links on their site to developers so they can code in advance to fix problems and have updates ready. huge support documents released in advance so that things keep working.
the beta is freely available to end users and and developers so that stuff just works. compare to apple that keeps stuff secret or only gives betas to developers that pay thousands to attend conferences or join apple developer conference.
then they spring their updates on the world with grand press releases.
sad.
look at how apple supports third party developers
at each point release of os x, apple has intentionally broken third party haxies that long time mac users love because it enables them to make their os x more like the classic mac os.
Breaking hacks doesn’t count as breaking Apps. Name one commercial App that uses standard APIs that broke with any update.
Basically he says Linux isn’t worthy! The funny thing is for one MacOSX benefitted from Linux its “unworthiness” by using GPL source.
Idiot. Mac OS X uses no Linux code, and hence could not have benefited from it. Niether Linus nor his little kernel had anything to do with the creation of the GPL.
“high-performance computer system that is basically designed for a single user and has advanced graphics capabilities, large storage capacity, and a powerful microprocessor (central processing unit). A workstation is more capable than a personal computer (PC) but is less advanced than a midrange computer (which can manage a large network of peripheral PCs or workstations…
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=1516&tocid=0&query=… ”
i have an athlon 64 3400+ rig (64 bit capable today with free suse linux 9.1)
ati 9800xt 256mb vid ram
1gb ram
2 80gb sata hds in raid 0
1 200gb sata hd
1 160gb sata hd
a 12x dual layer dvd + – and ram burner by LG
sb audigy 2 sound card
i run no pro grade software on it. dont do video editing on it. dont do 3d graphics on it. dont do sound production on it.
in every way it fits the bill as a powerful workstation but is solely used for daily personal computing tasks. and costs less than a dual g5 top end model.
thank you. i own a workstation that is used as a personal computer.
“Apple is in deep shit with the Linux desktop on the longer run.”
What time frame are we takling about? 2010-15 for Linux to catch up with Mac OS X development phase, and the user experience ? Mac OS X is only 4 years old but already 5-10 years ahead of the Linux desktop experience.
Well. There will always be so and so many Linux & Windows users that will defect from the Linux & Windows platform. The Mac will always provde a safe heaven for those. Why do all platforms need to “rule the world”. Small is good. As the years go by moore and moore apps wil be produced by the System Vendor.
are what you would call commercial software/apps. and they provide great functionality to mac users. why would apple break them intentionally when their users enjoy them? i know dozens of mac users that have had to deal with this never ending stream of updates to keep their stuff working.
“Breaking hacks doesn’t count as breaking Apps. Name one commercial App that uses standard APIs that broke with any update.”
vpc by connectix doesnt work on g5 towers with os 10.3.
several mcafee and norton products broke at different point releases of os x.
roxios toast broke at several points with os x.
on and on and on. go look at any of those commercial software companies support forums and note they had to release patches to get their apps working again in the new flavors of os x.
i have an athlon 64 3400+ rig (64 bit capable today with free suse linux 9.1)
ati 9800xt 256mb vid ram
1gb ram
2 80gb sata hds in raid 0
1 200gb sata hd
1 160gb sata hd
a 12x dual layer dvd + – and ram burner by LG
sb audigy 2 sound card
This is a PC. AMD says so. The Athlon64 is a PC Processor.
in every way it fits the bill as a powerful workstation but is solely used for daily personal computing tasks. and costs less than a dual g5 top end model.
Yes the Dual G5 is well a MP box your’s isn’t.
thank you. i own a workstation that is used as a personal computer.
Sorry every PC manufaturer, The Company that manufactures your CPU and even the dictionary that you use as a reference disagree with you. You can create any dillusion you want in you head.
In response to the “haxies” issue. Microsoft also does not want us changing the way Windows looks. The .dll that lets you change the systems themes HAS to be hacked before you can change the theme to a non MS theme. And who doesn’t remember SP1 coming out and screwing up systems running the modified .dll. SP2 is known to cause certain problems with this also.
As for giving developers a chance to update their programs for an upgraded version. Microsoft CHARGES money (Alot of money at that.) for this with MSDN. As a member of ADC, doesn’t cost you anything. All the tools and resources you need to update your program is there for FREE.
I really don’t care for Apple or Microsoft. Neither of them do a perfect job. NO os does a perfect job.
at each point release of os x, apple has intentionally broken third party haxies that long time mac users love because it enables them to make their os x more like the classic mac os.
These things aren’t broken deliberately, they’re broken because they use undocumented low-level APIs that may change between OS releases (which is why they are undocumented).
Windows programs that use similar undocumented APIs often have the same problems on Windows, although Microsoft developers are well known for jumping through hoops to ensure as much binary compatibility as is humanly possible.
Linux has massive problems with low level binary compatibility (but that *is* intentional).
Now, if you want to talk about how Apple is bad because they won’t *provide* stable, documented APIs to do the things that Fruitmenu, et al, want to do, you might have a point
. However, they certainly wouldn’t have a team of programmers sitting around devising ways to break haxies (copying them, OTOH…). Those things are practically broken bu design, relying as they do on low level, undocumented, unacknowledged APIs.
As for giving developers a chance to update their programs for an upgraded version. Microsoft CHARGES money (Alot of money at that.) for this with MSDN. As a member of ADC, doesn’t cost you anything. All the tools and resources you need to update your program is there for FREE.
MSDN is free (msdn.microsoft.com). The development *tools* certainly aren’t (imagine the outcry from the “MONOPOLY!MONOPOLY!MONOPOLY!” crowd if they were), but all the documentation you need to write Windows applications is available on the web.
I have Macs.
I completely understand the reasons most people don’t buy Macs.
1. Because everyone else is using Windows. (That’s the reason, you see? It’s a self-fullfilling prophecy.)
2. Because I already have Windows software, so am committed. Else I’d have to spend even that much more money.
Those are really the main reasons. People tend to rationalize the other stuff.
Someone here mentioned Steve Jobs name about 5 times in one paragraph. The reason for not buying Mac is because Jobs is running the company. Stupid. The reason for not using Windows is Bill Gates. The reason for not using Open Source is Richard Stallman. Great.
How about these ‘PC had TV tuners first’ type arguments? Not an issue. If first meant something then Macs would rule the computing world. Just see how much it means to you when Tiger is delivered with file system meta-data first. I think the tune will once again change to “it’s not needed anyway”.
The hardware price issue is not really about value. There are too many comments along the lines that “I can get x for $800, and a comparable Mac is $1000.” It is difficult for one hardware company to be all things to all people. It would be nice to see more models of computer to choose from, but buying Apple is really about buying into the software. The hardware merely needs to be competitive, not outrageous.
But when cost is your only determining factor, then how can you ever buy a system? Everytime someone gets a better deal than you it will just confirm what a moron you are, how wrong-headed your judgement is.
That is even more true in the case of your PC purchase, because those two computers would be identical, and only the price would differ. Comparing the PC and Mac isn’t an identical comparison. The PC and the Mac can not do the same things, only similar things. They are both general purpose computers which run software, but not the same software.
You can say, “I prefer running Microsoft applications, so I choose Windows.” Fine. You can say, “I prefer running Microsoft applications on Mac (Office was first on Mac by the way, for those that value first), where they didn’t hose up the OS.” Fine, that’s OK, too. You could also prefer to run Final Cut Pro, or Motion, which are only available for Mac. In that case, the difference in price between system hardware is not an issue. The systems you mention would not work!
What else can a Mac do that Windows can’t? Run Linux software! That’s right. No special ports or operating environments needed. It just works. That’s why Linux is not a threat to Mac. Many Linux advocates argue against Macs here, but the rise of Linux will strengthen Apple’s place in the market, not diminish it. Not to a dominant position mind you, it will just broaden the Macs compatibility with the rest of the world. If Apple can co-exist with Microsoft, then why do you think Linux will be a problem?
I’m all for Linux catching on in the x86 world, and hope I can get some of our desktops at work converted.
You guys don’t have to understand why I would pay $3000 for a dual G5, and I will certainly not understand why you would pay all that and more to run Doom 3. To each his own.
adc has a free membership that includes virtually nothing:
http://developer.apple.com/membership/?nav
see the chart and carry your lies with you.
the $500 and $3500 plans are needed for real access.
ms provided beta access to svc pk 2 starting late last yr:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/evaluation/news/bulletin…
free beta now for xp 64 bit:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/default.mspx
windows server 2003 64 bit extended beta:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/evaluation/news/bulletin…
free beta dev tools:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/
ms action pack includes 10 licenses to nearly all of their oses, server oses, and biz apps and you can use them for testing and to run your biz. $299
http://members.microsoft.com/partner/help/ActionPackFAQ.aspx
yes msdn is even more but likewise includes even more.
you can spread that stuff in some other field.
If only they could deliver their hardware then I’d say they are a hardware company. For now they are a company that promises hardware to be recieved at a much later date. Delays without notice. Very sad indeed. Something is definitely lacking.
“MSDN is free (msdn.microsoft.com). The development *tools* certainly aren’t (imagine the outcry from the “MONOPOLY!MONOPOLY!MONOPOLY!” crowd if they were), but all the documentation you need to write Windows applications is available on the web.”
good point that almost all of msdn and technet both are free to the public via the web:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/default.mspx
ms provides much more software via free download and in many cases via free cds shipped for free or little cost for both betas and trials:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserversystem/evaluation/trial/defau…
the express beta tools are free to download as mentioned above…including sql 2005 beta.
.net programming tools are available free to a degree now and have been as well:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=262D25E3-F…
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=9B3A2CA6-3…
the volume of tools that ms provides for free via download on msdn in enormous:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/
and if you are a developer get full access to ms oses and apps via action pack for $299
get entry to full msdn for as little as $1199
http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscriptions/buy/choose/
“i run no pro grade software on it. dont do video editing on it. dont do 3d graphics on it. dont do sound production on it. ”
that says it all.
looking to develop on ms platform versus apple than is this deal:
just $375
you get universal msdn membership worth $2800 (now includes one on one mentorship with in house ms developer as well)
http://members.microsoft.com/partner/competency/isvcomp/empower/?na…
“Microsoft Empower for ISVs offers the following benefits:
Up to five (5) software licenses (for internal use):
Microsoft Windows XP or Windows 2000 Professional
Microsoft Office XP (Premium or Developer Edition) or Microsoft Office 2003 Editions
One (1) software license and up to five (5) Client Access Licenses (CALs) for:
Microsoft Windows 2000 Server (Standard or Advanced Edition) or Microsoft Windows Server 2003 (Standard or Enterprise Edition)
Microsoft Exchange 2000 Server (Standard or Enterprise Edition) or Microsoft Exchange 2003 Server (Standard or Enterprise Edition)
Microsoft SQL Server 2000 (Standard or Enterprise Edition)
Microsoft SharePoint Portal Server
Development and Testing License: One (1) MSDN Universal Subscription media kit and five (5) user licenses*
One (1) MSDN Universal Media kit (DVD)
Each MSDN Universal subscription is a single user license for development and testing purposes and includes Microsoft Visual Studio .NET Enterprise Architect Edition, the full range of Microsoft Windows Server System integrated server software, all Microsoft operating systems, Microsoft productivity applications (Office Developer Edition, Microsoft Project, FrontPage, Visio, and MapPoint), as well as access to SDKs, DDKs, and the MSDN Library. Each subscription also gives you priority access to new product releases, updates, and betas through the MSDN Downloads site.
Note: Microsoft Empower for ISVs is a one-year initiative with an opportunity to renew for the second year. All initiative benefits lapse once membership expires.
* MSDN Universal Subscriptions for ISV Empower members do not include any phone-based incident support.
MSDN Online Managed Support Newsgroups (English Only)
Ask software, hardware, and related technology questions in the newsgroups supported by Microsoft Support Professionals.
MSDN Online Concierge Trial (English Only)
This service helps users find articles and resources within MSDN. It is available worldwide and provides real-time responses.”
you can get a second year for same amount before having to move into regular msdn program.
nice setup for a new developer or new firm.
and since apple rarely offers deals or sales you dont get stuff like this from them. always price controlled inflated prices.
The real irony here of all the Mac Zealots arguing the PowerMac is a “personal computer” aimed at the “home market” (purely so they can coin such meaningless phrases as “Apple had the first 64 bit PC”). Because the effort Apple makes to convince the industry the exact opposite (since the PowerMacs lack traditional workstationy options like SCSI, hardware RAID and ECC RAM) is significant.
I’ve got to agree that linux has tons more apps than than OSX, and generally the linux apps are not only free (beer and speech) but easier to set up.
case in point. I have a souped up G3 Blue & White running OS 10.3 and an iMac running Debian Sid. Want to set up ftp access to your mac box? in debian it’s as easy as apt-get install ftpd. sets itself up turns itself on. in OSX the “recommend” ftp server is proftpd, which requires tinkering with a text file. ncftpd is easier to set up on OSX but it costs money.
I also feel that gaim is leaps and bounds better than the antiquated OSX Ims which are signifigantly more feature stripped than their windows counterparts.
even something as simple as a built-in like a multiple desktop pager in OSX costs you to install it (the free app space for OSX sucks).
When I’m in OSX I find myself installing things through the fink apt-repository, but even then the repositories for the apps I use haven’t been updated in months, and software i want to install isn’t in the repository yet, and probably never will be.
I’m surere there’s some specialized high end graphic design/movie making software that OSX has that linux can;t touch, but as a normal desktop I prefer the freedom of range of apps that linux provides me.
=====================
Marcel wrote:
“there are many more excellent commercial OS X apps than there are Linux apps”
Yeah right…. Complete nonsense
For those of you that are irrationally putting down the mac … have you actually used one extensively?
instead of “it’s overpriced” etc. etc. …. how about actually TRYING it?
When you go shopping (car, clothes, etc.) … do you always go for the cheapest thing that everyone else is doing? Or do you pay a little bit extra for something that’s worthwhile?
http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-237-7.htm
“conclusion
After looking at the results, one thing is certain: You have more to gain than you to to lose by installing SP2.
Performance is for the most part identical to SP1, except in a few cases. In those cases, SP2 was actually faster! There were only one or two instances where SP1 was faster, and that was by the slimmest of margins.
What surprized me was how much gaming performance was increased by upgrading to SP2 and DirectX 9c! I was NOT expecting this, especially on the midrange x600 XT card we used for testing. Nonetheless, most games do benefit from the upgrade.
So with all the new security patches and features, and mostly increased performance, you have no reason NOT to install SP2.
Thankfully, Microsoft offers several means of obtaining and installing SP2. If you have automatic updates enabled, you probably already have it downloaded by now. If not, you can visit Windows Update to manually install it. The download size ranges from 70 to about 260 MB.
If you want to keep a local copy of SP2 on a CD or elsewhere, you can download the full SP2 package here. It will be around 260 MB, but Microsoft’s servers are fast
Finally, if you are on a crap internet connection, and have no friends who are willing to burn a copy for you, you can order a CD directly from Microsoft. This is free of charge, although they say to expect it to take a few weeks to arrive.
I hope this convinces everyone to upgrade to SP2; this will surely help keep viruses and trojans at bay! It might not eliminate them, but every little bit helps.”
page one of review is here:
http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-237-1.htm
tested using:
First we will be looking at the Internet Content Creation portion of the SYSmark 04 test. The following applications are used in this test:
Adobe After Effects 5.5
Adobe Photoshop 7.01
Adobe Premiere 6.5
Discreet 3ds max 5.1
Macromedia Dreamweaver MX
Macromedia Flash MX
Microsoft Windows Media Encoder 9 Series
Network Associates McAfee VirusScan 7.0
WinZip Computing WinZip 8.1
and
Office Productivity Performance
This time, the following applications are being used to determine performance:
Adobe Acrobat 5.0.5
Microsoft Access 2002
Microsoft Excel 2002
Microsoft Internet Explorer 6
Microsoft Outlook 2002
Microsoft PowerPoint 2002
Microsoft Word 2002
Network Associates McAfee VirusScan 7.0
ScanSoft Dragon Naturally Speaking 6 Preferred
WinZip Computing WinZip 8.1
and web performance and many many games as well….
and dont forget, even though ms spent over a year and over $1 billion dollars on this upgrade, they are providing it free via download and via cd. Compare that to Apple’s annual $129 upgrade.
whoever wrote this (I didn’t even read it) got some serious issues.
we can’t build a base of free software upon the Mac OS, no matter how good looking and well functioning it is, as long as it isn’t free as in speech I’ll _never_ go there, and hope the devs don’t switch side either!
Wow! Perfect flamebait post OSNews! Really you gotta pat yourselves on the back for this one! Even got the Linux in the subject line crossed out knowing full well that would anger *nix proponents. It feels more like /. over here more and more these days…
and dont forget, even though ms spent over a year and over $1 billion dollars on this upgrade, they are providing it free via download and via cd. Compare that to Apple’s annual $129 upgrade.
Apple’s “upgrades” are in fact UPGRADES!
SP2 is basically just a big patch. [of course free, just like apple].
Since M$ spends $1billion a year, where is the “innovation”?
and dont forget, even though ms spent over a year and over $1 billion dollars on this upgrade, they are providing it free via download and via cd. Compare that to Apple’s annual $129 upgrade.
The reason Microsoft is forced to give this for free is because of the billions of dollars customers are losing due to viruses and worms for windows. Customers have paid enough already. I have fixed more than enough saser infected boxes. Microsoft damn well make this free and refund the cost of XP too for all the crap I and others had to deal with their software.
Didn’t the Department of Home land security send a warning against using IE?
Also there is a big difference between a jumbo patch and an OS upgrade. SP2 is a jumbo patch and MacOS X upgrades are upgrades. Apple’s patches are free.
Where did all the clueless losers come from all of a sudden? 150+ comments now, and I’ll bet serious money that a whopping 5 people have actually used OS X before.
Guess what… Linux isn’t -that- good. It’s nice, but it’s not the end all and be all. We love it in our server rooms, but it’s useless on the desktop for 95% of the market. Just because someone (eWeek) decided to put it in it’s place rather than suckle at it’s overhyped wang doesn’t mean that all have to start talking trash on a subject you really don’t know much about.
You’re just pissed because Apple did in 3 years what you still haven’t done… developed a UNIX based operating system that has -real- commercial support and bundled it with a GUI that isn’t obviously created by amateurs.
Most people who buy a mac ,go for the design.A interiour designer or an extraordinary architect or model agency attracts potential customers based on visual aspects to.
Most x86 cases wouldn’t fit in those surroundings.
Besides the script-kiddy pc-mods the style of PC cases havent’t really evolved.Allmost everything is based on the taste of 15-20 year olds.I can appreciate a good design, both visually as technically,however i prefer what’s inside, the rest is bonus.The G5 isn’t by far the most powerfull desktop workstation,i must say looking at its interiour design is a pleasure to be savoured.
It’s all about lifestyle and what gets the job done.
In fact no OS is absolutely free, very few belong to the “Inner Circle” of kernel and core developers .At least the hood of OPEN SOURCE isn’t welded and you can have a peek at what’s underneath it for what its’s worth.
It’s a rather easy decision for some enterprises to go for
Open Source Software,Operating Systems.After all who wants
to pay a monthly licence fee to a car manufacturer based on
how many people will sit in the car.
Does it really matter which company came out with their products first? I always used computers as a tool, and different tools serve different purposes.
I use the “Big 3″ desktop OSes on a daily basis. Linux for my desktop (Arch Linux) and server (Arch Linux), OS X for my notebook and Windows when I don’t have a choice (using my scanner, etc.).
I use Linux on the desktop and on my server because it does what I need it to do. I’m not a gamer, and I don’t edit videos, so I run modest hardware. Add to that the flexibility of the Arch Linux distro, and my desktop is fast enough from my prospective…
And really, Apple hardware isn’t terribly expensive unless you’re buying on the high end. I just bought a 12″ 1.33Ghz Powerbook for $1399 (student discount). It’s very comparable to other modern notebooks that have the same features (12”, 60GB HDD, 802.11g, Bluetooth and 4.6lbs).
I think hardware has just gotten completely out of hand. People are led to believe that they need a 3GHz Pentium 4 or 2.X GHz G5 to be productive, and then the OEMs choke their machines with enough software to make the end user actually buy into it. However, I fully understand there are more than enough reasons to buy high end Desktops (multimedia production, gamers/hobbyists), but average users are duped into buying them, when they’re just browsing the web and using office suites.
Also, it’s important to remember that the PPC architecture is completely different than the x86 architecture, so be wise before making claims about performance.
How about looking at the machines normal people buy (because they’re the only ones that they can afford). The iBook and Powerbook are still running bus speeds PCs left behind years ago. The iMac has only *just* had its bus speed bumped to something approaching competitive, but the machines aren’t actually available.
Eh? You mean to say that PC laptops run have a bus faster than 166 MHz (333 MHz DDR)?
I gotta say this – there is a little key, just near the A & Z keys, that allows you to have capital letters.
We tend to use capital letters at the start of sentences, and when we are using proper nouns. It also makes it much easier to read sentences when they are properly capitalised.
(BTW: I love the integrated spell-check, that tells me all of my words – including capitalised are spelled correctly. Even though I am doing this in a browser that is not tightly integrated with the OS, or even made by the same company. Guess which OS I am using 🙂
[Capitalised is the correct spelling, outside of the USA]
Compressed flamebait in a can. It doesn’t get much better than this ….
This thread turned long ago into a pissing contest but I’d still like to describe why I switched to a Powerbook G4/OSX after running linux for about 9 years.
If you think about it, desktops in linux are not that far from OSX in terms of usability and ease of use, but there’s still “something” in OSX that makes it stand out in one way or another… The environment has its flaws and its bugs but many times you can appreciate the attention that apple pays to little details all over the place.
And then, there is another important thing: it just works. I am the happy owner of a bluetooth-enabled phone and whenever I want to synchronize my contacts, the only thing I need to do is fire up iSync and click the “Sync now” button via bluetooth. Now, how do you do that in Linux? I have never had any problem reading HOWTOs and compiling kernel modules but I don’t have the time and energy anymore… Another example: my Canon Ixus camera just works in OSX and iPhoto. There was no need to download and compile gphoto, compile and load additonal kernel modules, etc. More? How about the wireless network card? I know they run in linux perfectly but you have to mess around with config files so that you can tell the module the id of the network you’re trying to join, etc. In OSX it is as easy as clicking the airport icon on the top menu bar and selecting the network you need.
I really think it’s great you can put together an AMD 64 bit rig for peanuts in the pc world and run linux in it, but there are people out there who really can’t spend time setting things up. People on the go, people out there who’d like to use their bluetooth-enabled phone to connect to the internet via gprs (is that even possible in linux?) There are people out there who’d like to download their pictures from a digital camera without hassle. There are people out there who care about an integrated environment were all pieces seem to fit together perfectly (ever noticed in OSX how the images you assign to your contacts in the address book are used in ichat or even in apps like Adium?) There are people for whom finding an email in 1gb of old messages in 2 seconds instead of 10 minutes (as in mail.app compared to outlook) can mean *money*! Don’t you realise that? Why is it so that some people’s view of the computing world is so narrow??
Believe it or not, there is a big market for Apple. Some of us don’t really mind paying a bit more for a machine that means the end of our computing troubles and that will allow us to purely concentrate on doing our work and being productive.
The folks at Apple take a lesson from SUN Microsystems and their own iPOD for Pete’s sake and open up that fine piece of art of an OS to the x86 platform. Many enthusiasts and Corporatons like the kid and kaboodle when it comes to OS and HW platforms, such as SUN workstations and Solaris. But Universities, and developers spurned the Solaris x86 OS in favor of linux for the simple fact that SUN treated it like the bastard child and didn’t support it. Why? Because SUN was heavily committed to it’s HW platform while wonderful machines, They are EXPENSIVE. Now let’s take a look at the Mac. The HW is top notch, almost everybody wants one..or two..or even three units. But Nobody ordinary can afford the pricetag of a G5 and who would even think of ebaying it?! But Apple has proved that Having a Friendly Unixlike OS that is Desktop Ready is not only feasible, but achieveable. If Apple Released a port of it to the x86 realm. Apple will undoubtedly Beat linux as a Desktop OS, But also be the absolute fiersest Contender with MS on the Desktop OS front. In my opinion, I do not think that they would suffer loss on teh hardware front, since Apple is legendary at pushing teh envelope of innovation for HW.
1 – prices
2 – not user friendly – (1 button mouse, poor keyboard shortcuts, non-intuitive UI)
3 – Mac uber alles attitude
4 – stifling environment – aimed at non-technical, know-nothing people – hostile to system customizers, hackers
5 – “gucci” appeal – esoteric paperweight
6 – big talk and expectations, but delivers next to nothing
7 – choicelessness of apps – very little variety, usually only one app in product category
8 – demeaning terminology – “put away” …is that “close” or “delete”?????
9 – proprietary lock-in – more constrictive than microsoft
10 – not able or not willing to take on microsoft – seen as weak, impotent and destined to fail – not a serious contender – reeks with stench of imminent death – dying OS with marginal market share
I agree, cutting through all the crap here. I switched to a second-hand G4 AGP 450MhZ and added 1GB RAM and a DVD Writer from my PC. Sold the PC software and the remnants of the PC. Got shut of my windows everything. Moved my Linux data over and haven’t looked back. It just works. Sleep mode for example is just that. No noise as if everything is really switched off. Tap the mouse or keyboard next day – almost immediate start-up where I left it.
New Macs are expensive, even if they have come down. Software like Adobe anything is expensive. Yet you can use The Gimp for graphics for example. AppleWorks you can read and write existing ms stuff. However, all these expensive things work and work well.
So, to all of you bitchers on this thread, if you are only bitching about the prices – go buy a refurbished late G3 better G4 and never look back. You will not regret it, once you take the blinkers off.
I wouldn’t shed any tears if Adobe never ported to Linux.
Acrobat Reader is available for Linux FYI.
I’m using Suse 9.1 & Win XP double boot. Linux is getting there and is already fun to hack, but OSX is incomparably more mature as a desktop solution.
Linux on server and OSX as client … why not? This really could be something worth pushing for Apple honchos.
Personally, before OSX & G5 I would not touch Mac even with a 10 feet pole, as old Mac OS up to version 9.x was way behind technologically and G4 does not cut it, compared to what’s available on PC.
Now, matters are different. Next year, it will be time to switch to notebook from desktop, and that could easily be PB G5.
Lumbergh, Lumbergh, Lumbergh! Catch a clue.
“Except they are woefully underpowered and overpriced.”
How so are they underpowered? What does that even mean anymore? Stop dishing out this is the same ole song and dance.
“Yeah, looks like the business desktop installations of linux by companies like Sun (JDS), Novell/Suse and Redhat were just a scifi tale.”
Yep. At least in the “Big Picture”.
“In my opinion Apple should be more scared of linux than Microsoft.”
Um, I don’t think Apple is scared of anyone. Why should they be?
Good post, Matt.
Unfortunately, the linux clan cannot see past their blinders and the old “underpowered, costs too much” BS. Let them delude themselves. Time will tell the true story.
Do all the stupid people show up in a Mac thread, and bash something they know nothing about?
BS
PG
“Eh? You mean to say that PC laptops run have a bus faster than 166 MHz (333 MHz DDR)?”
sure here is one with a 1600mhz bus:
http://www.acer.co.uk/acereuro/page4.do;jsessionid=286a0e147ad15ce9…
here is one with 800mhz bus via intel
http://alienware.com/product_detail_pages/Area-51m/area-51m_specs.a…
and for comparison here is apples powerful old g4 cpu with 167mhz bus:
http://www.apple.com/powerbook/specs.html
or the lowly ibook with 133mhz bus:
http://www.apple.com/ibook/specs.html
or hot new imac with intentionally crippled up to 600mhz bus:
http://www.apple.com/imac/specs.html
and finally the lowly emac with a 167mhz bus:
http://www.apple.com/emac/specs.html
and to compare, but pc laptops for $599 have 533mhz bus:
http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=31462…
Is there a dvd authoring appliclation for the mac like dvdlab pro, which by the way is free.Is it possible to make your own
dolby 5.1 music dvd’s out of cd’s with free/shareware on a mac?Is there a app like clonedvd or clonecd equivalent for MACOSX?
thought so.
If everything would work the way it should life can be pretty boring.In the end i’m happy with my OpenBSD transparant firewall,linux all day use box, and Microsoft XP professional game /multimedia station.What would i do with an i-pod in my car with dolby 5.1 capable dvd-player?
Mp3,divx is anyway obsolete.
BTW, Just for the record: Does MacOSX support all the development tools FreeBSD has, i don’t mean the propietary
vendor toolkit?
Excellent post.
Unfortunately most Linux users want Apple to be on its deathbed. They see Apple as a road block to desktop superiority! Talk about pipe dreams!
Show me a sub $3000.00 workstation using Power architecture.
Show me any computer using PPC that costs less than a Mac.
Show me an X86 box that does not become more expensive when you put an IBM HD in it.
Build me a PPC computer from scratch for $500.00.
Show me reliable evidence that a higher processor speed equals a faster or better computer.
Prove to me that Mhz for Mhz X86 is a superior platform over PPC.
I don’t think you can!
Well said. I’d like to add that any hardware MFR no matter who it is (Apple, Dell, IBM, HP, or Sun); the buyer will pay a premium for their newest top of the line equipment.
Just becuase they came out with something new doesn’t mean that the generation before it is obsolete. I purchased my first Mac at the end of 2001 beginning of 2002 (Dual 1Ghz G4). It was the top of the line at the time I purchased it and even though newer models have come out it still rocks. Over the past two and a half years I’ve upped the RAM, added hard drives, USB 2.0, FireWire 2.0, a hardware based RAID PCI Card and a S**t load of perrifials that I use for my multimedia business.
When I went to buy a second box I looked at the G5 but ended up going with a mirrored door G4. Why…. becuase the G4 still has lots of life in it. It was EOL so they discounted it to move the inventory off the shelves. If I want to add an additional internal CD/DVD burnner I can. It has room for at least one more Gig of RAM, plus three additional internal HDs. It solid and does everyting I need/want.
I wouldn’t hesitate to purchase another G4 referbished or NOS if I needed it. I have no reason to upgrade to a G5 until they stop making 32bit software for the G4. Which is going to be a long time from now. I anticipate that even then my G4s will still have plenty of life.
My only regret is not waiting to purchase my 12in ALPB, Again it rocks but I’d rather have had the 15in wich came out a few months later.
“Idiot. Mac OS X uses no Linux code”
MacOSX does not use any Linux (the kernel) code but it does use Linux (the OS) code.
—-
“The new X server for Linux is going to have a good deal of OSX’s features (drop shadows, etc.)”
That is and is not a “OSX feature”. Yes, OSX has it; No, Apple didn’t invent it.
Und die Bayerische Motoren Werke sind auch nicht mehr so Elitist weil da mehr teuere automobiels sind: teuerer Audi’s, Saab’s, Lancia, Mercedes-Benz…
They compete with each other, the attract the richer classes and deceive they need it somehow (hence elitist attitude). See the paralel? They compete with each other in these fields. But they’ll never get popular and bought by the masses.
here is 4.2lb laptop with 333mhz bus for just $890 at full retail–
AVERATEC AV3220H1 Notebook Athlon XP-M 2000+, 12.1″, 256MB, 40GB, 56K, LAN, WLAN, WinXP Home
CPU: AMD Mobile Athlon XP-M 2000+
Display: 12.1″ XGA TFT (1024×768)
OS: Windows XP Home Edition
Memory: 256MB DDR333 SDRAM
Graphics: S3 UniChrome Integrated Video Controller, 64MB
HD: 40GB
Optical Drive: DVD/CD-RW
Communications: 56K Modem, 10/100 LAN, 802.11g WLAN
Ports: 3x USB2.0, VGA, Audio Ports, Type II PCMCIA/CardBus Slot
Average Battery Life: 3 hours
Dimensions: 10.9″ x 9.6″ x 1″
Weight: 4.2 lbs
Manufacturer Warranty: 1 year
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?DEPA=0&description=34…
or get it on sale for as little as $750:
http://dealnews.com/articles/66612.html
staples stores have on sale this week for $799. its on sale somewhere nearly every week for $750 or $799.
http://instorespecials.staples.com/staples/default.aspx?action=nuep…
compare to cheapest ibook at $1099 http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore/.
so on pc you can get full featured laptop for as little as $599 and save $500 if you want to deal with 7.7lb laptop
http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=31462… (sold out online but available in stores)
or if you need lite you can get the above averatec and still save $350.
yep overpriced and underpowered is the mac.
Excuse me to hop in the pissing contest, but now I’m curious:
“MacOSX does not use any Linux (the kernel) code but it does use Linux (the OS) code. ”
What does that mean exactly?
Nice little Averatec. I used one of those. The stupid little undersized keys drove me crazy. Especially because when you’re programming, you use the ” ‘ : ; > < . {}[] etc etc as much as you use actual letters. Plus, I don’t need 209390 stickers on my new laptop purchase, thank you. Windows XP? Don’t forget to factor in the cost of anti-virus software and subscription. Battery life? a happy user of the laptop on the newegg link you posted even admits it only gets 2 1/2. I consistently get 4 1/2 on this iBook. That’s while listening to music, programming, wireless networking, etc. Built-in microphone? no. Firewire? no.
Additionally. I use Safari for my banking website (chase.com) and a variety of flash webistes. Never had a single problem.
I run Fedora Core 2 on another box as something to tinker around with, and as a fileserver. It’s nice. But seriously, I wouldn’t think about leaving my parents with a Linux box as their only computer. I don’t understand why Linux diehards will never get that it is still vastly beyond the comprehension of the average computer user. I studied computer science. I work for SWIFT. But I would still rather use a Mac than laptop than take on the task of running Linux on a laptop.
BTW, Just for the record: Does MacOSX support all the development tools FreeBSD has, i don’t mean the propietary
vendor toolkit?
Basic rule of thumb: if it’s available in source, it can be made to run on Mac OS X.
i have an athlon 64 3400+ rig (64 bit capable today with free suse linux 9.1)
ati 9800xt 256mb vid ram
1gb ram
2 80gb sata hds in raid 0
1 200gb sata hd
1 160gb sata hd
a 12x dual layer dvd + – and ram burner by LG
sb audigy 2 sound card
i run no pro grade software on it. dont do video editing on it. dont do 3d graphics on it. dont do sound production on it.
…
i own a workstation that is used as a personal computer.
Which of course begs the question: why do you own a workstation if all you need is a personal computer? Think of all the money you could have saved by buying a lower-grade model!
But Linux is not a good choice for user desktops. It is possible for a motivated user—whether by anti-Microsoft sentiment, a light wallet, or the desire to be a technological Flying Wallenda—to build a useful Linux desktop. I’ve even built one myself.
To translate that from Technology Experts speech, he managed to put a Red Hat CD in his drive and clicked install.
Apparently he gives MANY reasons why “Linux” isn’t a good choice for user desktops, and they are all clearly and logical. It’s just that i am too stupid to find them.
If the desktop Linux people really cared about using a great operating system, they would stop trying to reinvent the wheel and rally around Mac OS X. It would be great if the contest were between two worthy operating systems, like Mac and XP/Longhorn. But Linux vs. Longhorn? You’ve got to be kidding.
Duh. What an idiot. “reinvent the wheel”, yeah sure.
Nothing against Mac OS X, i use it a lot and know it very well, and clearly PPC is the superior instruction set, but this this guy… ARRRRRGHHH! He’ dumber than wood.
Too many Technology Experts cause you a headache. I’m off to read BOFH to calm down.
for how ms supports you with trial software via free downloads and cd orders.
http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/render.aspx?view=22&type=std…
“Which of course begs the question: why do you own a workstation if all you need is a personal computer? Think of all the money you could have saved by buying a lower-grade model!”
well, id hope from my postings that it would be clear by now that i have a firm grasp on a “deal”.
my pc is a high end model that is now 8 months old. even with it all those goodies it was substantially less expensive than a high end mac tower.
i have the pc above because i store large amounts of video and music on it (hence the huge storage).
i run high end 3d games on it (many of them installed simultaneously) so again large hard drive capacity.
it produces awesome sound connected to logitech z-680 speakers.
it produces fantastic video connected to a 21″ viewsonic crt.
with audigy 2 platimum with live drive it connects to my home stereo stack for full integration with dual cassette, lp, tuner, and 200 cd changer.
it has a tv tuner in it for watching cable tv and recording shows and capturing video from external devices.
it is an entertainment super center. pretty high end, but it does exactly what i want it to do.
1 – prices
this has been explained previously. think of it as an investment over all the BS viruses, worms, crap, spyware, you’ll end up wasting hours on later.
2 – not user friendly – (1 button mouse, poor keyboard shortcuts, non-intuitive UI)
what are you smoking? how is the UI non-intuitive? (but later on you write that the OS appeals to non-technical people?) Also, you can use any button mouse you want. just the default is apple’s. Which makes much sense, since developers don’t throw everything at the ‘right’ click as they do on windows.
3 – Mac uber alles attitude
you meet the same types on all sides. like yourself?
4 – stifling environment – aimed at non-technical, know-nothing people – hostile to system customizers, hackers
aimed at non-technical? I guess you better let the Army, and the numerous higher-education market to reconsider their purchases and use windows! lol
5 – “gucci” appeal – esoteric paperweight
you don’t know good design when you see one
6 – big talk and expectations, but delivers next to nothing
I think you’ve mistaken Apple for Microsoft…… longhorn delays/setbacks anyone?
7 – choicelessness of apps – very little variety, usually only one app in product category
there’s usually a couple (name something that is only one product in a category) …. at least the products are of top quality. Can’t say the same for windows. there’s a billion for each category, but 99% of them suck ass.
8 – demeaning terminology – “put away” …is that “close” or “delete”?????
what are you talking about?
9 – proprietary lock-in – more constrictive than microsoft
huh? Like what? Please explain. All of microsoft’s formats are extremely proprietary. WMV, WMA? How is that not proprietary? Apple bases most things on open source formats.
10 – not able or not willing to take on microsoft – seen as weak, impotent and destined to fail – not a serious contender – reeks with stench of imminent death – dying OS with marginal market share
Weak? Destined to fail? right. I wager that you’ve never even used OS X for a long period have you? All your comments are based off of old apple logic.
my pc is a high end model that is now 8 months old. even with it all those goodies it was substantially less expensive than a high end mac tower.
That wasn’t the question. The question was what do you do with the computer to need expensive high-end components? A mid-grade systems would be sufficient for your needs (except for maybe playing Doom 3, but even that’s going to change within half a year).
You like to blather on about how expensive Macs are and imply how stupid Mac users are for paying the ‘Steve Jobs tax’, yet you have no qualms about spending more money than necessary for yourself.
If at least you did something productive with all that hardware…
sorry to interupt but i just wanted to tell a little story that happened the other day.
we were at the restaurant eating lunch the other day at the university…
and i took out my 12 inch powerbook and startedd surfing through airport.
and one of my friends asked how much the battery lasts… i said at least 3 hours.
and he said: i have a pc laptop, the battery never lasts more than 1 hour, neither did it last more when i first bought it, i could never watch an entire dvd on it.
thanx
“That wasn’t the question. The question was what do you do with the computer to need expensive high-end components? A mid-grade systems would be sufficient for your needs (except for maybe playing Doom 3, but even that’s going to change within half a year).
You like to blather on about how expensive Macs are and imply how stupid Mac users are for paying the ‘Steve Jobs tax’, yet you have no qualms about spending more money than necessary for yourself.
If at least you did something productive with all that hardware…”
see lars that is where you show your mac superiority complex. “If at least you did something productive with all that hardware…” means that you dont think my pc fits my usage scenario when in fact it fits it perfectly. i specifically choose every single component for exactly what i want it to to. i know my needs and my budget and this pc fits both perfectly. customized to the nth degree. cant do that with a mac. are you a mac user the arbiter of what is productive?
no, it wasnt expensive compared to many computers and especially macs. yes cheaper options are available but they will not do what i want. i had hundreds of options on x86 with windows and linux and i got precisely what i needed.
yes it runs doom. very very well too. and many other games not even available on the mac platform.
yes it cost less than macs that have substantially less power and dont even come close on feature set.
it has a 3 yr warranty built into the cost so i am protected still for 28 more months.
being a tower, it has great expandability over its life span.
having all brand name, highly regarded, retail components i have support from those vendors for software, firmware, and drivers for years to come.
powerful at its outset, it will retain its power and value for a long time to come based off its current power, feature set, and expandability.
“yet you have no qualms about spending more money than necessary for yourself”
i spent just what i needed to accomplish my goals. my points about macs are that you spend more to get less.
Okay, so what about people who use Intel/AMD? There’s no way I’m gonna go out and buy expensive hardware to run OS X when Linux is good enough for me and runs on relatively inexpensive hardware.
Most PCs are Intel/AMD machines, and unless you’ve got lots of money the best migration path from windows is to go with Linux, and if you’re looking for an equivalent to Aqua then try GNOME.
Come on, why encourage such a path? Linux is obviously path to take.
are you really that ignorant?
choose the path that fits YOUR needs.
Using your logic, windows is expensive software, due to all the crap and time wasting that comes along with it [viruses, worms, spyware, bull****].
no, it wasnt expensive compared to many computers and especially macs. yes cheaper options are available but they will not do what i want. i had hundreds of options on x86 with windows and linux and i got precisely what i needed.
Let’s see 8 months ago, you paid $400+ just for the CPU, About $500 on the Radeon9800XT 256MB, that is just $900 for the CPU and graphics alone.
Say about $600 for storage. About $400 for 1GB Ram.
That $1900 just for the base config not even counting all the other stuff you mentioned.
That was not expensive, for a single cpu PC?
Also, for all the comparisons you post. The Athlon 64 3400+ did pretty badly against the 3000+ in price/performance. For your use you could easily have saved a few hundred $$$.
Not very smart buyer after all eh?
“If at least you did something productive with all that hardware…” means that you dont think my pc fits my usage scenario when in fact it fits it perfectly.
I suggest you learn to read. Consuming media content is hardly productive, even though entertaining.
are you a mac user the arbiter of what is productive?
I just gave you a taste of your own arrogance.
i know my needs and my budget and this pc fits both perfectly.
I doubt that. A less powerful and cheaper PC could fulfill all your needs just as well (and I am speaking from firsthand experience here), but it obviously wasn’t what you wanted. So stop lambasting other people if they spend their money on things which are important to them.
are you a mac user the arbiter of what is productive?
I merely gave you a taste of your own arrogance.
“MacOSX does not use any Linux (the kernel) code but it does use Linux (the OS) code. ”
What does that mean exactly?
It means that ((L)GPL) code used by Linux distributions (e.g. KHTML) is now used by MacOSX. Ofcourse its a lousy way to describe it by me, and excuse me for that.
http://newegg.com/
athlon 64 3400+
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-103-42… $375
msi k8t neo fisr2 motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-130-43… $113
1gb ocz ddr40 pc3200 high performance low latency ram
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-146-88… $242 total
ati 9800xt 256mb
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-131-26… $309
antec case with 400w power supply
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-129-12… $105
2 x 80gb hard sata hard drives
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-145-04… $130 total
200gb hard drive
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-144-32… $122
160gb hard drive
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-145-07… $99
LG 12x dual layer dvd +/-/ram
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=27-136-03… $78
audigy 2 zs platinum http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=29-102-16… $120
mitsumi 3.5″ floppy with usb 2.0 card reader (7 in 1)
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=21-104-10… $28
tv tuner card
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-122-18… $51
i already owned windows so no need to buy it but:
windows xp pro
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=37-102-14… $141
also already had the speakers, keyboard, mouse, and monitor. but i could add the z-680 speakers, a 21″ crt, keyboard, mouse, and a full complement of software for less than the cost of the dual 2.5ghz g5 tower before you even add speakers or monitor.
yack about dual cpus all you like, no mac made can perform with this single cpu PC. and the only ones that come close cost much more.
configure a mac like that on apples site with that much ram, hard drive space, the 9800xt video card and you are looking at voer $4000. and it still doesnt have all of the features…but yes you spend much extra for that second cpu that provides no value for the majority of apps that run on a mac and even within the ones that it does benefit, few run faster when compared to high end amd or intel pcs with single cpus.
build a dual 2.5ghz g5 with that much storage and comparable in every other spec (where it can) and it comes to $4123. you will normally pay shipping costs from apple and you will pay tax in most states as well.
the above pc is $1772. prices were slightly higher when i purchased. mine was closer to $2000. got free shipping. paid no tax.
what the pc has that mac does not:
5 pci slots
an onboard sound card that supports 5.1 if my sb audigy fails
2 sata raid controllers
3 ide controllers
a tv and fm radio tuner
a 7 in 1 card reader
a faster dvd burner that burns at 12x, does dual layer, does +/-/ and dvd ram.
has a video card that gets full ati retail support via constantly updated video card drivers that increase performance
a case with tons of room for expansion not two giant heatsinks or some elaborate liquid cooling system that fills the whole case
more usb 2.0 ports (8)
4 firewire ports
midi in and out
rca jacks in and out
spdif in and out
optical ports in and out
remote controls for sound card and tv tuner (z-680 speakers also have remote)
motherboard still includes legacy ports for a 7 yr old laser (parallel port…no more adb ports for mac so you are out of luck with an old laser on mac)
Dear Anonymous (IP: —.chvlva.adelphia.net),
I found your post interesting and I thank you for it. I however allow myself to ask you a question: didn’t you, by any chance, mistaken between FSB (Front Side Bus), System Bus and Memory Bus?
Here’s what I found on Google by typing “system bus vs fsb” (without the quotes) in the search field.
The 1st result I got was this link:
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Hardware/New_Users/Q_20880479.html
May I suggest you to have a look at it. I have the impression that the “System Bus” of the laptops (be they Intel/AMD or PPC based) are basically all the same. I have the impression that for marketing purposes some will publicize the FSB rather than the SB. But please tell me if I’m wrong.
Best regards,
Pit
P.S.: sorry if I made English language errors, I’m not English speaking native.
++++
” didn’t you, by any chance, mistaken between FSB (Front Side Bus), System Bus and Memory Bus?”
nope, i dont have any confusion about each of the separate busses in a modern computer. it can be rather confusing but no they are not all the same.
different macs have different system and memory busses.
intel and amd cpus amongst the great variety of those cpus, chipsets, and memory controllers have in many cases different bus speeds of all sorts.
the g5 towers for instance:
http://www.apple.com/powermac/specs.html
“Two 900MHz, 1GHz or 1.25GHz 64-bit DDR frontside busses supporting up to 10GBps data throughput”
“# 128-bit data paths for up to 6.4GBps memory throughput
# Dual 1.8GHz systems:
* 256MB of PC3200 (400MHz) DDR SDRAM
* Four DIMM slots supporting up to 4GB of main memory
# Dual 2GHz and dual 2.5GHz systems:
* 512MB of PC3200 (400MHz) DDR”
the powerbooks:
http://www.apple.com/powerbook/specs.html
“17-inch model
* 1.5GHz PowerPC G4 processor with Velocity Engine, 512K SRAM on-chip L2 cache, 167MHz system bus
#
# 512MB of PC2700 (333MHz) DDR SDRAM; two SO-DIMM slots support up to 2GB”
all three have 167mhz system busses and 333mhz memory busses however
my athlon 64 3400+ with a via k8t800 chipset msi motherboard in a tower enclosure: 1600mhz front side bus for a single cpu. 400mhz ddr memory bus.
the newest socket 939 opteron and athlon 64 cpu motherboards have 2000mhz front side busses and have 400mhz dual channel ddr memory busses.
the chipsets for athlon 64 that go on laptop motherboards are the same as those that go in towers. same bus speeds.
OK. I would just remark that KHTML is a part of KDE and has in fact nothing to do with Linux. KDE runs on Linux, *BSD, Darwin, OSX. And the deliberate choice by Apple of KHTML as an engine for Safari benefited to KHTML, since all ameliorations made by Apple have been committed back.
What was the point already?
nope, i dont have any confusion about each of the separate busses in a modern computer. it can be rather confusing but no they are not all the same.
Sorry to say but your are confused and absolutely clueless. You can’t compare the 1600Mhz hypertransport link on a Athlon64/Opteron to the FSB on a G5 or P4.
The hypertransport link on an AMD 64-bit chip is an I/O only and has a bandwidth of 6.4 GB/sec 16bits @1600Mhz and 8 GB/sec at 16-bit@2000Mhz. The Bandwidth on the AMD chip is mainly used for DMA and PIO traffic.
The bandwidth on a G5 is anywhere from 8.4GB/sec – 10 GB/sec for Memory and I/O to the CPU. DMA traffic on G5 based system does not use the CPU Bus, it goes straight to memory on the System controller.
Your Megahertz ratings are pretty much meaningless without the bandwidth and type traffic on the buses. The hypertransport link on the AMD athlon 64 chip is 16bits wide clocked at 1600Mhz-2000Mhz. FYI the 1600MHZ and 2000MHZ numbers are drived as such 800MHz x 2 (directional links) and 1000 x 2 (directional links). So the Hyper transport links are actually clocked half of what the marketting literature cliams.
The G5 has a 128 bit wide bus at 1000-1250Mhz.
You have convinced me to switch to a Windows PC.
Your 43.5 hours of posting here for the last couple of weeks have paid off!