Aiming to crack down on counterfeit software, Microsoft plans later this year to require customers to verify that their copy of Windows is genuine before downloading security patches and other add-ons to the operating system.
Microsoft: Legit Windows or no updates
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I spose thats all fair game, but what about the innocent users that have to suffer? University networks, targets of mass zombie attacks etc.
This may well help Mocrosoft’s piracy issue, but not it’s security one.
There seem to have forgotten one of the reasons they were alot more lenient last time around, by doing this, we can expect the proliferation of worms and viruses of illegal copies of windows hitting us everywhere. The result of pirateers not being able to update, is that legitimate users are going to attacked relentlessly by PCs taken over by maliscious code.
more reason to move to the Mac, i say (not a troll, just an observation)
They are trying to limit piracy of their product, which is fair enough. I think I’d do the same in their position. From what I understand, SP3 will bring a “new” XP product (much like the upgrade SP2 brought us, only on a grander scale), I suspect MS don’t want to end up having to give this away for free to people who haven’t paid for their existing copy.
On the flip side of the argument, MS are not considering the impact one or two oustanding security holes will have on the internet as a whole. Who knows what sort of level XP piracy is at. Without appropriate patches etc, worms and virii will run riot.
Further to this, look beyond XP at the server products. I suspect not all sites are running on licensed copies of 2000/2003 server, or SQL for that matter. Imagine the security problems this could cause.
If I were MS I would restrict all but the most critical of patches. That way, users of a pirated copy don’t go spreading worms etc, but dont have the bonus of receiving actual functionality upgrades.
As far as linux goes as a desktop replacement for XP, I doubt kde/gnome and gaming compatibility will be up to a standard where it is a viable alternative for joe user (well, maybe a low %) in time to provide a migration path.
This is just great, now when I’m working on a customers computer and need to install patches I’ll have to deal with making sure they have a legit copy of windows. I think Microsoft needs to step back and take a look at their profit margins and the customers they are pissing off by trying to increase them. Last I heard they had around 85% markup on windows, office is even greater. Piracy was around %50 last time I checked but if they eleminate piracy will they decrase prices by %50 thereby keeping their prift margins the same or will they leave pricing the same? I think we all know the answer.
I don’t see how it’s going to work?? There are key generators out there that can produce valid product keys. If SP2 didn’t stop these people, how does Microsoft think this will help? They’ll just end up disabling updates for people who are unaware of the legal status of their installation, whereas the “real” pirates will just go about their business untouched.
Almost all the companies when fighting piracy, get it harder with its own customers.
I hate Borland, for example, which produces Interbase and Delphi. We can’t activate the same key from more than two computers it seems. But I’m always switching computers, for example (I used to be the only developer, with 4 PCs, without counting 2 servers (one is backup)). I really dislike having to explain why I need to run more and etc. But that’s it. Linux all the way and Firebird. 🙂
This isn’t going to even help with the piracy issue either. What will end up happening is that the updates will then just circulate via the back channels like the rest of the pirated software. Microsoft’s anti-piracy programs have never worked: the pirates and crackers are always a step ahead. Theoretically the X-Box wasn’t to allow pirated games either, but that lasted all of a few days.
So for the less tech savvy that pirate, as was stated above all that’s going to happen is even more trojans, spam, and viruses will be clogging the internet arteries because they are either too lazy to track down the updates or not savvy enough to find them.
The alternative crowd could be happy though, since this will encourage former pirates onto alternatives like Macs, Solaris x86, Linux, *BSD, etc which increases their user base. Larger user base encourages hardware companies that formerly only supported Windows to support alternatives.
It should be entertaining when the exploits from un-licensed machines are used in DDOS attacks against MS itself…poetic actually.
Sure, but they release software that does not need activation, for example. If every single copy of Windows was checked, then it would be great for them.
This is great news for all the competing OSes. A sizeable chunk of those not owning Windows will probably check out the free or cheaper alternatives.
People often forget that the reason MS were so relaxed about piracy in the past was because it helped them gain massive market share because everybody runs Windows, legally or not. Market share means money. I guess they have decided they have sufficient market share that illegal proliferation of their products no longer benefits them.
Just means they’ll push more people to alternative OS’s like Linux. I welcome the opprotunity to ‘help’ more people see how Linux can free them. Thank you Microsoft, you’re Linux’ best advertisement.
It’s been a year now that each time my Windows tries to update in the background and then install the patches, during install I get an error message that says that my license key has expired.
I got this version of Windows XP from P2P network eDonkey 2000.
This will contribute to more viruses, especially more spam zombies.
I agree with Charlie: Microsoft always used piracy to spread Windows and even if they always told they are committed to fight it, they’re not fighting it very hard. After all, if you don’t wanna pay for Windows, it’s better that you have Windows installed anyway instead of other OS, both because your money won’t go elsewhere and because of market share reasons.
However, if you remember the story about SP2, Microsoft first announced that only legal users would have been able to install it then removed any restriction. I don’t think they will restrict security patches but only value-added software (and patches) like they’re doing with BETAS right now. Restricting security patches would mean more rumors about Windows being unsafe…
They’re trying to use their massive market share to pursue people to buy Windows by giving legal users an added value over unlegal ones. Something very similar to Linux companies giving Linux out for free and then selling value-added software / features.
I’ve always thought that MS is preparing an huge change for its products, by switching to a better technology (Longhorn) and using old technology like Win2000/XP to counterattack free OSes. Something like very cheap or free XP (for example) to provide a basic playground for users for which costs are important, while still sticking people into Windows technology. That would be wise.
After all, I’ve always thought that Mansoft leaking story was a fake 😉
> Just means they’ll push more people to alternative
> OS’s like Linux. I welcome the opprotunity to ‘help’
> more people see how Linux can free them.
If you work in specialized jobs like bookkeeping, web design, 3D, CAD, etc… You won’t have much work done with Linux. GIMP and VI is a joke.
>GIMP and VI is a joke.
I don’t agree with that. GIMP is very comparable to Photoshop. And hey, the best part about it is that it’s free! I run GIMP on both Linux and Windows.
As for VI, it’s an acquired taste.
I feel sorry for all those poor misguided souls who use emacs and windows notepad…
I don’t see MS doing that so soon in Brazil… So many computers are non-brand computers that a lot of people would be using a free (as beer) alternative that will come preloaded … Of course lot’s of machines will be preloaded with pirated windows, but preloaded alternatives will grow a lot (again, IMHO)!
And only my posts consider alternatives. See? That’s why Microsoft needs to fight piracy.
Really. Just think: there are about 70-90% illegal OS Windows copies in East Europe and Asia. And M$ knows… Tomorrow 30-50% of them will change their OS – Linux is going better and better. “Gaming-platforM$” is not an serious argument while you can’t buy even 300-400$ hardware – all you need is winex:) So, I don’t believe MS – they’ve told a word, but thought another things. Excuse my English.
This is just great, now when I’m working on a customers computer and need to install patches I’ll have to deal with making sure they have a legit copy of windows.
How of your customers PCs came with media-less OEM versions of XP, which you have replaced with a ‘warez’ version, because it buggered beyond repair (malware, virus, trojans and all the ills MS-Windows is oh-so susceptible to) and needed reinstalling?
The people in the US seem to have low-spec (under-powered) computers compared to people in other countries.
If you do the math, it seems that the “savings” in software allow people to buy better hardware.
How of your customers == How many of your customers
Good enuf reason for me to tell my folks/friends to switch to.. Linux ! Yeah!
they started this with photostory 3
…the “savings” in software allow people to buy better hardware… Yes. And once Linux – no M$ more.
when will they anounce that the M$ tax on PC sale is no more?
So, I actually found out that you can install Windows too many times. I had been installing various Linuxes, and then installing Windows, and getting new hardware for about two years, and just recently, I hit the threshold where my copy of Windows would no longer activate automatically. I had to go through the telephone process of activating.
Anyways, it’s not that difficult to activate. They ask you a couple questions (one of which being why are you installing Windows and if this is the only machine this copy of Windows is installed on), and then give you the needed activation code.
But that pisses me off. I have a valid license, and I have a valid key, a legal license to use Windows. I don’t feel the need to have to call up a support line everytime I happen to reinstall Windows because it gets infected or I want a fresh copy.
It pisses me off that they are turning the tables and saying to me now “We don’t trust you…”, and I am sure their will come a time when the guy on the other line says “No activation for you!”
Just something to consider…
I don’t think this will lead to a larger GNU/linux install base. More likely people will just stay with their pirated copy of XP and never update it and botnets will come knocking on everybodys doors.
From that story (assuming that it’s accurate):
” Microsoft will continue to allow all people to get Windows updates by turning on the Automatic Update feature within Windows.”
I wouldnt put too much into this story until Microsoft releases official information on it through their web site.
If you work in specialized jobs like bookkeeping, web design, 3D, CAD, etc… You won’t have much work done with Linux. GIMP and VI is a joke.
Hmm. Neither GIMP nor Vi do bookkeeping, 3D, or CAD. I can see where either one could be used in web design: GIMP for graphics, Vi for writing code.
As for either program being a “joke”, well let’s compare. GIMP is a raster image editor that is approximately 80% feature-comparable with Photoshop, and at least as capable as Paint Shop Pro. That’s far from being a “joke”, but let’s compare prices anyway. Photoshop is around $300-500, and Paint Shop Pro is $99-$129. So, given the previously stated comparability, GIMP should cost $240-400 when compared to Photoshop, or $99-129 or more when compared to Paint Shop Pro. Wait a minute, GIMP is free right? So that means I can have 80% of the functionality of Photoshop for none of the price, or better yet ALL of the functionality of Paint Shop Pro, again for free? If that’s a joke, it’s not very funny; although it certainly made my wallet smile.
As for Vi, well, it’s not my favorite editor by a long shot (I prefer Joe or Nano/Pico), but again let’s compare. In the Windows world, you have Notepad built in, which is about as featureless as the Sahara Desert. Then there’s my favorite Windows text editor, Crimson Editor. It is simply awesome for any kind of coding, and it’s free pricewise. There are a few Linux text editors very similar to Crimson, but this is about Vi. Vi is very difficult to learn (in my experience), but once you learn it you have a very fast, powerful and efficient tool to write anything from source code to your first novel. Unfortunately, it is only just as capable as Crimson, and costs the same. Still not a joke by any means, but not a deal-breaker either.
As for 3D work, well remember that Pixar chose Linux/Unix systems running software such as Renderman to do all of their work. ILM, Dreamworks and Sony Imageworks also render in 3D on Linux boxes. If you don’t believe me, here’s the article:
http://news.com.com/2100-1001-983898.html
So tell me again why I won’t get much work done in Linux?
> I don’t think this will lead to a larger GNU/linux
> install base. More likely people will just stay with their
> pirated copy of XP and never update it and botnets will come
> knocking on everybodys doors.
Yes that’s what I expect too. Even worse, if the process of proving that your copy of Windows is genuine is too hard, even users with a genuine copy might not update.
any office admin that has a few pirated copies would just have to have one legit box running XP then ghost it after any update then run ghost it to the other boxen after any updates…
but i still rather see Linux being used instead of windows, maybe this will be the incentive…
Exactly! good job Morgan. In additions, there are blender3D, Maya(proprietary yet you are talking about 3D) and many others. For text editor, I haven’t learned Vi(nor vim) but a friend of mine can use as quick as I use my notepad and even faster and more efficient(multiple screens by simple shortcuts). GIMP is definitely a good enough software for professional to editor the images. Especially nowadays people are going 3D, they are editing textures by rendering it. Imaging is used for editing pixels.
1. OO becomes better than MS Office(you just need to get used to but it doesn’t mean OO cannot do something that MS Office does)
2. Java will play a big part because it’s not only cross-platform(write once run anywhere) that shorten the development cycle into 1/3 of original but its full featured API gives developers the need of any high level computing(including 2D and 3D). You may say it’s slow but seriously, please read some coding optimization tutorials before you blame Java. Over 80% of the time developers find it slow because they don’t do optimization and don’t follow the API suggestions.
2.1. nVidia is doing a good job. And ATI is working hard on this platform and in fact, if ATI have a good finishing video linux driver for their cards, the video card market will be very interesting because ATI is not only fighting for windows workstation but also linux workstation market.
3. What else you can’t think of? Of course there are software that are available ONLY in windows and not linux, but as long as you post somewhere, developers are going to make one for you for free, it takes a bit time but it’s free and it will be meeting your need and more!
People who currently use pirated XP will just
1. Find a cracked copy of XP that allow them to update
2. Stay with the outdated copy
If MS is successful at this, most people will probably just stay with option #2. Maybe a very small % of user will convert to alternative OS (MAC OS X, Linux)
OK so Microsoft is fighting piracy with this technique. Question is I was a part of the Win2000 MSDN program a long time ago and I still own an MSDN copy of Win2000. Does this mean I will not be able to update my copies that I paid $$$$ for?
Everyone here seem to go the linux way. Don’t forget MacOS X – most of the software that don’t exist on Linux exist on MacOS X. You get a good computer, good OS(with things that will only be available on Windows in… well. When MS will do them (WinFS anyone?)).
It’s as good as Linux (can run most of the OSS soft with just a recompile).
And now with the Mini, nearly all the range of computer (for office/personnal usage/small wks) exist at a good price tag.
And other good thing are coming it seem : SkyOS, The Human Interface, Coyotos…
It’s not a black(windows?) & white(Linux?) world
For me it’s going to be an Apple world if nothing better come in
Let’s go if people will remain addicted in M$ produts and believing on M$ TCO FUD….
M$, please extend this verification to all products, specially M$ Office, M$ Outlook and M$ SQL Server. People must know the true TCO of a M$ headache^H^H^H^H^H^H^solution.
Go free software !
Don’t listen this M$-addicted brazilian fanboys above. While pirated copies of windows here represents more than 90% of market, Brazil is a leader in latin america in linux and freesoftware adoption.
We already have many successfull linux-based projects like “Telecentros” of São Paulo, where LTSP (www.ltsp.org) is being used to permit very old machines to be used as X terminals to poor people browse internet, to use email, to use OpenOffice.org and other utilities.
There will be this year also a big “popular PC” project that will use linux and other free softwares to make digital inclusion.
Unfortunatelly there are a minority of people who already have computers for years and many of them are M$ addicted and have no brain to understand freesoftware philosophy and importance. Poor M$ zealots… I want to laugh when their pirated copies of Windows be deactivated.
with Linux you dont have to spend thousands on new computers, you can just wipe Windows off existing x86 computers and install Linux that was downloaded free!!!
Uhmm… did i say free!?!
hey Linux can be downloaded FREE!!!
Just a note.. Windows comes with notepad AND wordpad.. wordpad has quite a few simpler features and works fine for most stuff..
Piracy
People keep making this assertion that Microsoft let people pirate on purpose in order to get people ‘hooked’ (eg – the first hit is free). Does anyone have any evidence to back this up, or is this just another theory from the conspiracy nuts?
Linux
People who are pirating Windows are probably also pirating all their apps, which means they’re probably using damn good apps. Switching to Linux would be like going back in time. The fact that everything is free doesn’t mean much to people who are already using high-dollar software and not paying for it anyway.
Why not a Mac instead of Linux?
Please. You think people too cheap to spend $$ on a copy of Windows are going to run out and buy a Mac ?
Gimp
When Jasc sold their souls to Corel (which now owns Paintshop Pro), people swore it off. When discussing alternatives to PSP, some comments came up about The Gimp:
GIMP is ass. I’m sorry – but a program that sucks to use … well, it sucks. I don’t care how powerful something is – if its a chore to use (and GIMP is a goddamn CHORE to use) then I would rather use something else.
I think why we hear how great GIMP is because its compared to Photoshop. My ass is easier to use than Photoshop and i have a pretty complex ass
GIMP is free and easier than Photoshop…so is M$ Paint. Get the point?
And I won’t waste my time trying to exploit its “real” power. Time is money and ****ing around with software written by upside down people is a waste.
I shouldn’t have to spend what seems like ten billion years trying to learn how to do a few simple fixes to a photo under GIMP when Photoshop/PSP/whatever photo editor flavor of the day it is can let me get it down without needing to almost lose my mind in the process.
I played with GIMP for about an hour or so. Yes, it APPEARS all the bells and whistles are there – but you gotta find the sumbitches in an interface that is so damn counterintuitive, I’d RATHER use Photoshop (which to me is – along with all adobe’s generic Mac interfaces – is evil).
End result? A powerful app for sure, but a bear to use, or so I’m told. (I’m not a graphics man myself.)
…no one takes care of their PC. Even IF you patch Windows it can still be vulnerable to various attacks due to the unpatchable: the user.
I wish people in general didn’t think of their computers like toasters or refrigerators (the “plug it in and forget about it” mentality). I do some hobby work fixing computers and the first question I ask is “have you downloaded any Windows updates, anti-virus updates, etc.?” Many of them just give me a blank look and say “I have to do that?”
If your system is secure not only with patches but firewalls, anti virus, spam blockers and you have a basic knowledge of “do’s and don’ts” (don’t open e-mail and/or attachments from unknown sources, etc.) you should be fine.
Note I’m not condoning piracy, I’m just saying if people properly protected themselves (never rely on one product to be the end-all-be-all for security) we wouldn’t have a lot of these virus problems.
I own and use a full version of Windows 2000 Professional. When I tried using the “Genuine Advantage” program a couple of months ago when the Microsoft web site asked me to, the application refused to run. The only thing I can think of is that it requires Windows XP and higher to run. Unless that is changed by the time “Genuine Advantage” becomes mandatory, I take it Windows 2000 owners such as myself become screwed.
Sigh. I’ve been using Linux off-and-on for years, but I don’t think it is desktop-friendly enough for sole OS use. I suppose it’s time I get my butt into gear and look at Apple Macintosh.
This is a good approach for MS. Even pirated users will still be able to update their box for security/bugs via enabling auto-update. But it is only the windows update website that they will not be able to access.
This helps MS in a few ways I think. Being able to control what is classified a security/bug issue versus what is a feature update. This allows valid windows users to still have an advantage.
But this tool just didn’t work well with me. I’ve got a valid compaq laptop with XP on it. I had the option of using the tool once, and I don’t know what happened. It just wouldn’t work and get the download. I can’t remember why…maybe they fixed that now.
Sell Windows XP Pro for $75 instead of $400+.
Sell Office 2003 for $100 instead of $800+.
After that, why would I need to get a ‘copy’ of the real thing when I can get the real thing with support, upgrade and patchs for almost nothing?
And also after lowering their prices, why would I need to try or switch to other less productive OSes when I can have the more popular and best productive one for almost nothing?
I didnt read all the responses so I apologize if this was allready covered.
I was re-loading a Win2000 machine earlier this morning at work and I needed to pull down SP3. Microsoft has allready implemented the validation process at least for Win2000 Pro.
If you have Active-X disabled, you will not validate.
I have to say, I have a hard time feeling bad for people. You don’t have to spend much time browsing the internet to know why people don’t like MS and don’t trust them. Many people have tied themselves to the platform while thinking they’ll always be able to share a copy with a friend, or get a discount through school etc. But they do so at the risk that those days will end, and they have ended.
I guess this is a bit of an “I told you so”, but this is the reason people like RMS promote the causes they do. Because proprietary companies can always resort to these tactics if they choose to. Apple users should think long and hard about what Apple might do if they had 95% market share.
Ok, so some of teh posters point out that GPL/Free Software isn’t always as robust. Ok, but I don’t ever run the risk of being “cut off” by my dealer. The price is worth it for me. For those who think proprietary software is a free lunch, they’re learning a new lesson.
As for MS… thanks, I can use more people on my platform to encourage more porting.
-b
According to http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/55560, security patches and service packs can still be downloaded.
One issue I don’t think anyone ever talks about is
the fact that when you buy a PC that comes w/
XP already installed, you get an ass load of shit
you don’t need, in some cases I’ve even
heard spyware. I admit, I use illegal coppies
of XP on all my systems if I’m not running linux
(except my mom’s laptop which I just left the licensed
copy of XP on). But currently the only system that
I actually use is my laptop, which I have
a licensed copy from Dell that I don’t use.
But Microsoft can put in place whatever measures
they want to stop piracy, but it hasn’t stopped
me in the past.
And I want to thank them for making it so easy
for me to backup games to my Xbox (-;
The real reason Microsoft has so many worries (Linux taking it’s market, rampant piracy) is because Microsoft is charging outrageous prices for their software. It might be true that their OS is “more” complex than an Intel CPU, that they spend more money developing it, blah blah blah… but the simple truth is that the economy of distribution is all in Microsoft’s favor and they are ripping off people. Economy of scale will dictate that as certain products reach more masses, prices drop, regardless whether the product gets more complex or not. I remember paying several hundreds for a 486 cpu in the early 90’s. At that time, DOS was $60. Since then, the computer industry has expanded exponentially, and both the complexity of the design of processors and OS have grown exponentially. However, today I can get a good CPU for less than $150 dollars, while the full retail version of Windows Home Edition is $200. Microsoft can only get away with this because it is a Monopoly. Judging by the market size and the cheap reproduction of software, the true value of Windows is around $10 – $15. Once they do that, they will see all their worries disappear (piracy and Linux) and they will see much more upgrades and people moving to newer versions of their software.
I doubt they’ll do this for their “network install” downloadable service packs, just for Windows Update.
XP SP2:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=049c9dbe-3…
2000 SP4:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=1001aaf1-7…
In fact, you can download a “network install” version of every patch on Windows Update, no ActiveX required. Then you just slipstream them all into your install CD.
Personally this is about the last straw that’s going to make me finally switch fulltime to Fedora3 instead of dual booting.
While Microsoft is tightening their grip, Sun is moving even further to an Open Source model and the Linux and BSD companies are already there.
It’s too bad that Microsoft doesn’t have other major sources of revenue, unless they can become a hardware and services company like IBM and Sun.
Microsoft is so desperate to control their customers, that I’ve decied that this is neither amusing or sad…it is sort of uplifting, actually, perhaps encouraging that the world has a natural stability. Microsoft are now in a corner by themselves, which is their due for over a decade of unethical business practices.
In fact, you can download a “network install” version of every patch on Windows Update, no ActiveX required. Then you just slipstream them all into your install CD.
How do you slipstream individual patches into an install CD? Can you slipstream WMP10 and the .NET service pack in as well?
As I understand it, the already free stuff is better anyway. Especially ad-aware.
helf (IP: —.gadsdn01.al.comcast.net) wrote:
Just a note.. Windows comes with notepad AND wordpad.. wordpad has quite a few simpler features and works fine for most stuff..
You’re absolutely right, I did forget about WordPad. However, I would still lump it in with Notepad only because I was comparing it to Vi. Yes, WordPad is a bit more capable than Notepad, but the comparison I was making was in reference to “. (IP: —.ctame701-2.telepar.net.br)” saying there was no Linux software good for things like web design. What Vi has that Notepad/WordPad lack are the tools that aid programmers. Things like syntax highlighting, powerful macros and versatile key combinations. Granted, it takes a lot of work to get that stuff out of Vi, but Notepad and WordPad don’t even offer the functionality at all. In fact, the only thing WordPad has that is better than the lowly Notepad is RTF support. Oh yes, and no limit on filesize under Win9x.
Also, there are many more text editors for Linux besides Vi. I had already mentioned Joe and Nano/Pico; I found that learning those editors was a breeze compared to Vi. Joe in particular makes a great programmer’s editor, while Nano and Pico are equally great for quickly editing system files and scripts (fstab, rc.modules etc). Then of course, there are the GUI editors like GEdit, Kate, Kedit, and Kwrite; I occasionally use GEdit, but it is often faster to just run Joe since I almost always have a terminal open. Getting back to web design, there are full-fledged HTML editors such as Screem, Quanta and Bluefish, and a CSS editor named, appropriately, CSSED. Again, these tend to be overkill to me, since all I truly want out of an editor is syntax highlighting and easy keyboard shortcuts for search/replace and cut/copy/paste.
I guess it really boils down to using the right tool for the right job, and even more important, the tool that fits YOUR needs. If a person just absolutely insists on using a Windows system to do web design, I would suggest that he or she at least consider something like Crimson Editor. It’s small, it’s free and it even puts most Linux GUI editors to shame.
bogey (IP: 216.144.24.—) wrote:
Ok, so some of teh posters point out that GPL/Free Software isn’t always as robust. Ok, but I don’t ever run the risk of being “cut off” by my dealer.
I hate to say it, but I have to disagree with you on this one point. What happens if the programmer(s) of your favorite program decide one day to end the project? Sure, your installed copy of the program will still run just fine, but what about security updates? What about feature-completion? You were anxiously awaiting the next bugfix which was supposed to fix a critical flaw you were experiencing, but now the project is dead and there will be no more updates.
I know, it’s open-source so you can fix it yourself or find someone else who will; that is the beautiful thing about open-source after all, right? But, it’s still a risk no matter what business model the software comes from.
Looking at it from another way however, I would feel shafted if a closed-source company did this to me; at least the open-source project doesn’t leave me completely empty-handed. I could continue the project myself, or beg/badger someone else into taking up the reins.
Because there’s never been a proprietary project just dropped?
Individual applications can always be dropped, in the proprietary and open-source world. But waking up and finding out that the price quadroupled? Or that the _only_ people with the source code to an application aren’t going to support it? Not in the GPL world.
I’ve heard this argument before. At an old job I discussed using free software, and someone said “but who do we go to for support? At least we can call MS”. If you call that support, and are willing to pay, more power to you.
It’s not worth the _price_ to me. And by price, I don’t mean money. I have and will continue to donate to the projcets I use.
-b
I neglected to mention those support calls were $299/call.
I hate to say it, but…
Come on now… people on this site love to argue… you don’t have to hide it
-b
I hate to get into the off-topic part of the thread, but…
“As for 3D work, well remember that Pixar chose Linux/Unix systems running software such as Renderman to do all of their work. ILM, Dreamworks and Sony Imageworks also render in 3D on Linux boxes. If you don’t believe me, here’s the article”
That’s for rendering. Render farms do basic math, they just do *a lot* of it. You don’t need a complex OS for that, so a reliable free one is an obvious fit. The workstations where the actual artists sit and do the work don’t use Linux, I don’t think.
“The fact that everything is free doesn’t mean much to people who are already using high-dollar software and not paying for it anyway.”
Ah, but you’re making the mistake Mac Mini fans bash the BYO PC crowd about; you’re not factoring in convenience. urpmi blah (or apt-get install blah, or yum <whatever the command is> blah) is a hell of a lot easier than hit random P2P network or full FTP site, download misnamed and untrusted file, scan for malware, try and install, discover is fake or broken, clean malware, redownload from another dodgy source, reinstall, check for malware again…software piracy gets really bloody tiresome after a while. Erm, “Allegedly” (as they say on Have I Got News For You…).
This is a little old, but according to it, ILM has linux workstations as well. I know this was true in the episode II days, I saw some sample work in a documentary…
http://www.deathfall.com/article.php?sid=901
Now that people have to pay for windows, they’ll switch to Linux in droves… I think it’s a great move–kudos Microsoft.
Who ever said you were monopolistic? This is the fairest thing you’ve done in awhile.
(The last time I gave a linux advocacy talk at my university, I asked everyone there how many people were using a pirated copy of Windows XP or 2000, and how many people were using a pirated copy of MS Office. About 70% for the former, 90% for the latter.)
btw, on the GIMP, i’ve always been a bit puzzled by the complaints about its interface – all powerful image editing programs tend to have quite arbitrary interfaces, like 3D apps, and GIMP has its own. I think most of the complainers are *used* to Photoshop’s own idiosyncratic interface so another way of doing it seems unreasonably hard, but I’m a moderate graphics user who used to use PSP on Windows and only mess with graphic editing occasionally, and GIMP’s interface seems no *worse* than any other image editor to me (though it’s not great). Just figure out the philosophy (basically, pretty much everything’s nested under the right mouse button) and you can find anything easily enough. I don’t think it’s worth starting a riot over…and 2.2 is a lot better than the 1.x series and a little better than 2.0, so things are going in the right direction.
> …VI is a joke
I’d say you’re a joke
As long as every unlicensed and unpatched version of windows also shuts down its Internet connection after thirty days and then removes itself from the hard disk it inhabits along with all the other stolen software, music and videos, especially the Windows dependent co resident easter eggs, spyware, addware, viruses, worms, spam email servers and DDOS agents this will be a very good thing for Everyone.
Perhaps as a last helpful act the illegal windows removal wizard could download and install a randomly chosen free operating system a free office suite and the new VB for linux – to help break up the monoculture.
As the removal wizard reboots – the last obscure windows dll could drop off its own dangling pointers and overflowing its buffers one last time, kill that manic paperclip we all hate so much.
With props to William J. Rodgers:
I remember a joke about operating systems. The gist of it was that if Windows were an airline everything would be beautiful and comfortable, although expensive. But ten minutes after take-off the airplane would explode for no known reason.
Meanwhile, over at Linux Air, your ticket is free but you have to install your own seat. They do give you all the tools and instructions needed to do the job. After this easy task everything is wonderful, but when you tell your friends about your flight they make a big thing about how you had to install your seat.
It’s really more like this:
They hand you the seat, a whole toolbox of tools, and a rack of anonymously written manuals big enough to fill a U-Haul. Most all the tools and manuals are utterly irrelevant, but nobody tells you which. Depending on which color upholstery your seat has, the tools and instructions needed to install it are slightly different. Nobody will help you straighten this out, but they will argue vociferously about which color upholstery is best.
In spite of all this, you go ahead. You find out very quickly that installing your seat would be trivially simple if your wristwatch were a 1963 Timex, your “PDA” were a wirebound notebook, your glasses were horn-rimmed and your pen were a ballpoint; but if any of the hardware you carry is less than ten years old, you can’t install your seat at all. The tools to install it don’t exist yet.
Having thrown away your watch, pen, PDA, and contact lenses, and dressed yourself in your finest white polyester leisure suit, you finally manage to install the seat. With a sigh of relief you sit down therein; but as they push the plane back from the gate the wheels fall off. Based on vague comments from your fellow passengers, you conclude this happened because the white polyester in your leisure suit is nonstandard; but it’s the only leisure suit you have (thank God) so you’re stuck with it.
The fellow traveler who seems most knowledgeable says you have to remove the standard seat Linux Air gave you and build a custom one from dozens of pieces which don’t seem to fit together; furthermore, you have to make sure to fit this new seat with an umbrella bracket even though you don’t have an umbrella and never plan to get one.
But all your fellow passengers swear Linux Air is the best airline in the sky. They keep telling you how lucky you are to be here and not stuck on Brand W.
Why be concerned with M$ security patches and bug fixes when all they do is break stuff and open more holes?
Windows is a huge piece of swiss cheese. There are more holes than anyone thinks.
This does not matter.
Nice rhetoric. Is there a real point behind it? You’re bragging on a technical website, that you can’t keep a OSS system up and running on nice hardware. IBM can. Big movie houses can. Oh, maybe they’re all using 10 year old hardware.
You like useless subjective anecdotes? Here’s one. MS reminds me of what Darth Vader said to Lando: “I’m altering the deal. Pray I don’t alter it any further”.
Enjoy paying whatever they decide to charge for Longhorn, for each computer in your house.
-b
Nice reference to the eighties. 🙂
Now, besides the seat and the tools, we have a Nasa like building space shuttles (RedHat), we have a Boing like, Airbus like, and finally, Embraer like with a nice economical jet (Ubuntu.) 🙂
http://www.embraer.com/english/content/aeronaves/aviacao_comercial/…
At least it was not a car analogy.
Pixar (and ILM) dropped Linux recently, in favour of Mac blade servers, certainly that’s what made Shrek2, and SW3.
If the security issues weren’t on purpose; they’d make a great incentive to get people to pay for updates to a free operating system…. And Bill Gates is THE proponent of subscription software.
….but, it struck me funny.
After verifying that a person has a pirated copy of Windows, the uninstall wizard comes up and uninstalls the Windows kernel. During the uninstall, which takes about 3 seconds, a splash screen is displayed saying:
Sorry, but we had to render your version of Windows useless since it was not valid. Please buy a genuine copy at a store near you. If you cannot afford a copy of the latest Windows, please feel free to try a free alternative, Linux. Thank you for letting us serve you.
lol
“Everyone here seem to go the linux way. Don’t forget MacOS X – most of the software that don’t exist on Linux exist on MacOS X. You get a good computer, good OS(with things that will only be available on Windows in… well. When MS will do them (WinFS anyone?)).
It’s as good as Linux (can run most of the OSS soft with just a recompile).
And now with the Mini, nearly all the range of computer (for office/personnal usage/small wks) exist at a good price tag.”
Sure, I want MacOS X, but:
1) Good computer? Not for the price, I actually get CRAP for the price, I get a decent computer for a high price thought.
2) Good OS? Agree. I would expect a graphic card, my printer, a microphone and a few games to run on MacOS. Not the same for the free OSes.
3) Mini for a good price tag? No way. The mac mini lite version is 4700 sek in Sweden, and since you will have to add lots of stuff you might aswell go with the more expensive one, so 5700 sek. Then you need to add 700 sek for 512MB, or LOTS for 1GB. Then add around 1000 SEK more for a dvd-burner instead, the machine doesn’t have digital sound output and any microphone input so there goes what? 800 SEK more or so for a soundcard (I have no idea actually). They keyboard and mouse is another 700 SEK. What you would get then is a 1.4 GHz G4 system with 512MB ram, 80GB hdd and a DVD-burner. The pricetag? 8900 SEK. And you are stuck with the crappy Radeon 9200 SE 32MB graphics card (why on earth did they used that? Why not a 9700 or 9800?). Need a TFT-screen aswell? Then you might just as well had bought the iMac for the same price… oh, but of course that one also comes with 256MB of ram for no reasonable reason and the extra memory is expensive as hell. You can forget about getting better gfx and hdd I suppose, and you will still have to get the DVD-burner option.
MacOS would be worth some money to me, but I don’t have them so it doesn’t help.
A free OS + OSS + Cedega + TurboPrint would give me the same things on X86.
Bogey:
Geez, it was just a joke.
FWIW, I dual boot SuSE 9.1 and XP.
Enjoy … whatever it is you enjoy, besides spazzing out over a simple analogy. Typical Penguinista.
Sorry If I jumped down your throat. I guess that’s one of the difficulties of the internet, no voice tone. One person’s joke is another person’s troll. Regardless, apparently you didn’t mean it that way.
I posted in this thread because I think this is an example of the dangers of tying yourself to a proprietary platform.
I don’t like Windows, but am for people making their own choices. I guess I let some of the trolling get the best of me.
-b
This will be a blessing for all the people using pirated versions of Windows, as all the new viruses and worms will be targeted at the latest service pack version.
Microsofts code entry point rearrangement and stack guard software in SP2 means that buffer overflows are much less compatible amoung Windows releases than they were.
As long as you are running a firewall and anti-virus, and don’t use Internet Explorer, you could end up more secure than if running a patched Windows.
Exactly. For all the time I’ve wasted on installing Linux and learning how to admin (versus Windows)I could have bought a $5000 OS.
“But it’s only free if your time are useless. If not it comes at a very high price. (If you expect a working desktop)”
Your time must be pretty valuable. Especially if you’re the same guy that I keep seeing writing this same/similar comment on this board.
Quote from Hagge regarding Linux…
“But it’s only free if your time are useless. If not it comes at a very high price. (If you expect a working desktop)”
—————————–
How are people like you even able to use a computer?
All major Linux distros come with easy to install and configure desktops. Efficient, powerful, “working” desktops!
Neither time or money is wasted or “useless” as you would put it.
My question to you…
Which of these to you consider more valuable?:
1) Downloading and installing Linux for free with a working desktop within a matter of 30 minuets and not wasting any of your “time” or money dealing virus or security issues from that point forward by default.
or
2) Installing Windows at a price with a bloated desktop within 60 minuets and having to constantly keep up with all the updates and security patches that you will need for:
virus, spyware, trojan, keylogger, active x, javascript, flash, document macros, email exploits, buffer overruns etc…
as well as taking the time to clean your system (daily) of all of the user tracking functions built into Windows and having to spend your “time” and money getting everything working again after your system gets compromised by any of the above.
but, you have your “working desktop”.
1) or 2) ?
Please do not “switch” to the Mac platform. We don’t want you. Seriuosly, I keep reading these comments stating that this could be a plus for Apple. In immediate hardware sales yes. But for the platform this could be murder. In an already small market, if people do not pay for software, the market dies. Unfortunately the only way to keep some people honest is to make the software unavailable. At the present time this is mostly the case with Mac “Warez” as the market is not big enough to support the effort. PAY for your software. Plain and simple. As for “Free Software” you pay for it by being locked into the terms of the GPL. It is free only in initial cost.
This is great news for all the competing OSes. A sizeable chunk of those not owning Windows will probably check out the free or cheaper alternatives.
For the vast bulk of users, Windows came “free” with their computer – how are you going to get any cheaper than that ?
Hear, hear! Wish they never would have pulled back these plans the first time. As a developer, piracy is a thorn in my side. Especially when there are so many free alternatives.
There are three essential commercial software packages on my machine: Windows XP Professional, Visual Studio .NET 2003, and VMWare. The first two are two of Microsoft’s best products, and well worth their cost.
A combination of these three products allows me to develop software with an amazing IDE for Windows, and Linux, and run virtually any software for either platform.
Say that you’ll require a legit copy of Windows to get security updates, but make sure only geeks will see it. Get those geeks worked up over the vast security ramifications of such a move and get them to rant about how evil Microsoft is, then change that policy equally quietly and look like the poor abused monopoly, slandered by that vicious open source community.
As for 3D work, well remember that Pixar chose Linux/Unix systems running software such as Renderman to do all of their work. ILM, Dreamworks and Sony Imageworks also render in 3D on Linux boxes. If you don’t believe me, here’s the article:
And Blender is not that bad either, and its free.
As for “Free Software” you pay for it by being locked into the terms of the GPL. It is free only in initial cost.
The GPL gives much greater rights to users and developers than proprietary licenses. It is not necessarily free as in beer on initial costs, but it is free as in speech.
For someone defending the Mac, you seem to quickly forget that Mac OSX is based on free software…
Oh, and if you don’t think there aren’t any Mac warez, well, I’m sorry to say that there is. You just have to know where to look!
> Unfortunately, it (vi) is only just as capable as Crimson…
Oh come on, there’s no reason to make such gross comparisons just because you happen to like Crimson. It doesn’t even support ctags.
“People often forget that the reason MS were so relaxed about piracy in the past was because it helped them gain massive market share because everybody runs Windows, legally or no”
And how is that any different from people choosing Linux only because its free?
By the middle of this year, Microsoft will make the verification mandatory in all countries for both add-on features to Windows as well as for all OS updates, including security patches. Microsoft will continue to allow all people to get Windows updates by turning on the Automatic Update feature within Windows.
It seems people can’t read here….
Security updates will still be available according to the article
What’s really going to happen is
(1) People will dust off their copies of Windows 98 and install that along with Linux and BSD on their new machines
(2) People won’t replace/upgrade their older machines running Windows 98 with newer versions of Windows.
(3) Pretty much nobody will run out and buy an Amiga or Mac.
> The GPL gives much greater rights to users and developers
> than proprietary licenses. It is not necessarily free as in
> beer on initial costs, but it is free as in speech.
Interesting… free speech allows me to shut up if I want to. Assume I have modified the code of a GPL’ed program and distribute the binary. Now someone asks me for the source code. Does free speech give me the right to shut up now?
Ok, so he made a bad analogy. But quit complaining about the GPL. I don’t spend my days posting about MS’s EULA, I just don’t agree to it.
The GPL has a price. If you want to use the source code, you can’t close up your program. Or put more generally, if you use their code, you have to give your users the same rights you had. No one put a gun to your head and asked you to use GPL’d code. If you don’t like it, don’t use it.
-b
So thieves and crooks who refuse to pay for software won’t be able to update their OS ?
Why I’m shocked. Those poor poor souls.
*I could care less – thats what they get*
The alternative crowd could be happy though, since this will encourage former pirates onto alternatives like Macs, Solaris x86, Linux, *BSD, etc which increases their user base.
Probably true, but I don’t think that the increas will come from former windows pirates, but rather from legitimate windows users, that will be hit by more viruses and other malware from unpatched users. This will lead to raised system management costs.
If you pirated the software you can afford some increased costs, but if you paid for it you will wan’t your moneys worth, or you will consideer alternative solutions.
Larger user base encourages hardware companies that formerly only supported Windows to support alternatives.
Some alternatives are allready quite well supported. E.g. Mac OS-X. Linux suport is growing rapidly as well.
> The GPL has a price. […] No one put a gun to your head
> and asked you to use GPL’d code. If you don’t like it,
> don’t use it.
No complaint meant. Actually I like the GPL exactly for that reason. Just it’s more about cooperation than about freedom.
“As for 3D work, well remember that Pixar chose Linux/Unix systems running software such as Renderman to do all of their work. ILM, Dreamworks and Sony Imageworks also render in 3D on Linux boxes. If you don’t believe me, here’s the article:
And Blender is not that bad either, and its free.”
I think there is a bit of a difference between what Pixar uses and programs like 3D Studio Max or Maya. Pixar uses machines that are dedicated and use a custom OS and software written specifically for that particular machine. These arent really general purpose computers they are using. I’ve used Blender, and I guess for being free it may be ok… But it certainly doesnt stack up to programs like 3D Studio Max or Maya. Sometimes you gotta pay money for a quality piece of software.
Gotcha. Wouldn’t be my first misunderstanding in this thread. I would probably agree with you, that it’s about cooperation. I don’t try to argue with people who think the BSD license is “free-er”. I think it’s a toss-up, and probably comes down to whether you look at it from the point of view of a developper or a user.
-b
Interesting… free speech allows me to shut up if I want to.
You’re welcome to exercise that right.
Assume I have modified the code of a GPL’ed program and distribute the binary. Now someone asks me for the source code. Does free speech give me the right to shut up now?
Perhaps you are unaware of copyright laws. Without the GPL, you can’t even access the source, even less modify it and redestribute it. The GPL gives you more right than you normally would have – the only caveat being that you can’t restrict other people’s right if you choose to release modified code. Note that you don’t have to release the modified code: that’s your choice to “shut up” or not.
By the way, your argument is fundamentally flawed: it is not “free speech” that gives you the right to shut up. Rather, both are protected by the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. Nevertheless, the right to free speech and the right to remain silent are two different entities.
Simple home owners who have bought a cheap butt Dell come preloaded with XP and have a valid license sticker on their case. Cost of Windows doesn’t mean anything to them.
Very large companies and corporate people don’t switch from Windows because they know MS isn’t going out of business tomorrow. Plus they can get a corporate lisence key that they can use all they want. Again, no price problem.
Hackers are not worried at all about it because nothing MS has ever done stopped them from copying Windows anyway, probably nothing will.
Short of having programs that run over the Internet, which MS is trying to do. And not to mention that most people who know what they are doing with a hacked Windows is that it’s not “hacked” at all. They simply install a corporate version that they got from a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend who works somewhere that uses a corporate install.
HOWEVER
The problem that I currently see is that I get a lot of people on older machines who have crapped up 95s and 98s or, surprise, ME PCs. They ask, “can I upgrade?” I say, $169 and you can upgrade. They drop to the floor. Not only that but XP is such a resource hog that they can’t run it anyway because they need RAM and better video. So that, plus labor, to get their 5 year old machine up to par, would only cost them the price of a small car.
But as far as I know, Linux, even way back, still runs on slow butt machines if need be. And I always assume that people who even go through the trouble of learning Linux or whatever, are using it for productivity, not play.
In my mind, I picture a high-speed PC with XP Pro, NOT online, for a gaming machine and running industry standard proggies. But using some Linux distro for a production machine, server, web editing, router, firewall, file server, or whatever.
Cause most people really are not that smart about their computer, and yes, as someone said, most people act as though they are just a microwave. And I tell someone that a virus jacked Explorer and spyware LSPs jacked your Internet access. They lecture me about how MS shouldn’t do this and who are these virus writers and why do they do this and why doesn’t MS fix this and how can that get in my machine? Well ma’am, it’s because you have an older OS missing 2 service packs and umpteen security updates. You have no firewall and you’re using Internet Explorer with no protection because your 30 day trial McAfee expires 2 and half years ago. A blank stare.
I even got lectured for 30 minutes by a guy who acted as though I was the guy who programmed Windows and he had to tell me about all the things his computer should and shouldn’t be doing.
So really, I can see why Linux or similar, SHOULD become a serious competitor for MS. But really, price isn’t that big of a deal until you’re talking about upgrades 4 years from now. When people running all their OEM Windows XPs of today want to upgrade to Longhorn in 2 years and find out it will cost $200 and require 4 hardware upgrades. When they realize that their silly Dells, HPs, Compaqs came with crap hardware, no AGP slots and limited RAM upgradabilty. Under powered power supplies, only 2 PCI slots, no room for a second hard drive. AND NO FREAKIN RESET BUTTON ON THE CASE!!
And then, in 2 years, it will of course all be MY fault in the eyes of my customers. Ah life. No wonder all you Linux nuts have so much time to post on these message boards, because the Windows freaks are spending all their time downloading crap, updating crap, fixing crap, installing new blockers, scanners, patchers, checkers, and fixers. Or no, their PC is at the shop again being fixed for the fourth time this year because your son looked at a porn page and got your entire system jacked inside and out. While you Linux guys forgot you ever had a computer down there. Instead you just have a screen, and the screen does what you want, every day, reliably.
Sorry about my ranting, it’s late.
By the way, I really like Linspire as a MS replacement. They have really grown. And nothing is easier then their CNR software management system.
Lastly I like the “airplane” analogy. That’s funny. But see, at MS Air, you can ONLY use their seat. And the seat is free so you must keep it. And it has lots of useless bells and whistles that should not be on a seat, they poke you in the back and head and cause you to itch. But hey, it came with the plane for free right? Well you can install your own seat but you CAN’T take out the free one, you must hack your new seat on top of the old one. But none of that matters anyway. Because as you get up in the sky, at the peak of your production, you will explode anyway.