Microsoft has once again stirred up a hornets nest in the open-source community, this time approaching the OSDL (Open Source Development Labs) to work with it on a joint, independent research project to do some facts-based analysis of Linux and Windows.
“Come into my parlour”, said the spider to the fly.
Why did you sting me the tod asked the scorpion.The scorpion aswered with:”Because i’m a scopion and it’s in my nature to do so”.
Fact: Microsoft wants the customers to “get the facts”; Linux and open source does need it.
The Linux zealots hate facts, especially when they portray Linux in a poor light. The linked article is hilarious.
lmao!
that was great.
>The Linux zealots hate facts, especially when
> they portray Linux in a poor light. The linked
> article is hilarious.
Every once in a while I see a posting like yours
and I’m always puzzled by it. Are you trolling
or are you ignorant?
Here’s the analysis of your posting and why I
find it confusing:
1) You use the phrase “Linux zealots”. Here’s
a link from wikipedia concerning zealot:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealot
Here’s part of the definition:Zealotry denotes zeal in excess, referring to cases where activism and ambition in relation to an ideology have become excessive to the point of being harmful to others, oneself, and one’s own cause.
I found your use of the phrase “Linux zealot”
a contradiction because Linux is an open source
operating system and as such is based on
1) peer review — software that is found wanting
is discarded, improved, or rejected in the first place.
2) Anyone can verify for themselves how
good of an operating system it is by their own
metric — there is no mandatory requirement that
anyone must subscribe to anyone else’s opinion of
how “good” it is.
3) No one can force you to use one application/library over another — you have complete
freedom to decide which applications or libraries
you want to use.
So, when you’re working in the open source world (and Linux in particular), you’re working in a meritocracy, that is to say, a world in which “good”
software is used and “bad” software is thrown away or replaced with improved versions.
There are no marketing forces or “monopoly” to force
you to use applications/libraries that someone else
has decided you must use.
My point then is that there is no “linux zealotry” here — it’s all about performance — as a user I’m not interested in what kind of a mansion a developer lives in, or whether or not he’s the richest person
on earth, or how “popular” someone’s software is, all I care about is whether or not
the software performs to my requirements. I don’t consider that zealotry, but rather common sense
and an individual’s free will to decide what is best for them. There is no such thing as “Linux zealotry”
per se, but one can make a case that there is such
a thing as “Windows zealotry”.
For example, who in their right mind using common sense would voluntarily use an operating system that
has:
a) Between 80,000-120,000 known viruses, trojans, and malwares depending on which antivirus company you consult.
b) Cannot survive connected on the internet
without additional security measures such as
3rd party firewall vendors longer than 20 minutes
on average before becoming owned by someone else.
c) Was involved in the loss of power for several days for approximately 50,000,000 people when a trojan infected laptop was permitted access to the network of a powerplant in Ohio causing a denial of service
in the warning system preventing workers from being
informed of a surge of power that caused a cascade of
power failures across the northeastern united states
d) Requires a user to register himself/herself everytime he/she chooses to install the operating system on a new computer or even perform a reinstallation once too many times.
e) Comes with no programming environments, no choice
of internet applications, no office suites, no multimedia editing software by default.
f) Keeps track of which dvd videos you choose to play
and transmits that information back to headquarters
g) Chooses to make interconnectivity to other operating systems as difficult as possible.
One would think that a) would be sufficient reason
for a reasonable person to reject the use of such
an operating system. (Just keep repeating the number
and try to visualize that number of known exploits
in your head for a while, then you’ll see the enormity of the situation.) One can only
conclude therefore that it must be some kind of
ideology for anyone to voluntarily use such an operating system connected to any network.
=============================
2) You say “Linux zealots” hate facts. This is about
as an absurd a statement as I’ve seen. I think this
clinches it for me that you’re a troll. Since Linux
is a meritocracy and a meritocracy is based on being
able to determine excellence using facts then
your statement makes no sense. In fact, your statement makes more sense if you substitute
instead: “Windows zealots hate facts”, since no reasonable person would use such an operating system
based on the above facts.
==============================
3) “The linked article is hilarious”. This statement
is the only one I found that I’m agreement, although
I don’t it’s for the same reasons as yours. I found the article hilarious, because that person’s experience seems to bear out that the only good reason for using windows was games — not the “office suite” (which is extra $$), not the windowing environment, not the programming development environment (which is extra $$), not the freedom
to modify the operating system as desired (there is no such freedom), not the internet applications (there aren’t any which are killer apps — I found the reference to the bittorrent client especially amusing since bittorrent was designed originally with Linux in mind).
No, the only reasons for this fellow to keep windows around were
a) He’s male
b) He’s a college student
c) He’s in the target audience for violent video games.
And that is hilarious. Personally, I wouldn’t want
to play with a windows box connected to the internet
due to the number of known exploits, but that’s just
common sense in my opinion.
–Johnnny
Just want to say that was the best response to a Troll post I have seen in a long time
Several of your comments regarding usage of Windows are reasons why so many of us have switched to Linux whether at home or in the workplace.
As for the issue with MS trying to sway OSDL I lost my faith in MS to tell the truth or play fair a long time ago. They not only have been proven a monopoly in the past by the USA DOJ but also have a long history of twisting the facts to suit their own purposes. It’s one of the reasons why major companies such as Novell and Red Hat have continued their battle with MS to educate customers on tests MS claime are factual but are found later to have been twisted in one way or another. Educating consumers on facts is not Linux zealotry and I wish some readers here would realize that.
But that’s the point — Linux distributors and proponents refuse to use any sort of real metrics or facts, instead resorting to FUD. The linked article even has Red Hat flat-out refusing to use real testing, obviously due to fear of what it would reveal. Why do you fear testing done by the OSDL, whom Linus himself works for, of all organizations?
Again, Linux zealots are just resorting to another round of Microsoft-bashing propoganda, spreading FUD and appealing to emotions instead of facts. If you want to prove that Linux is better, show real evidence instead of hiding behind hearsay, strawman arguments, and personal attacks on Microsoft. Let the tests be run.
>But that’s the point — Linux distributors and
> proponents refuse to use any sort of real metrics
> or facts, instead resorting to FUD.
What point would that be? Did you read my post?
Did you read the part where YOU are free
to evaluate Linux for yourself? Did you read
the part where YOU decide the metric
to use?
As to refusal, Here’s RedHat’s reason as quoted from
the article:
“We disagree with the idea of using ‘research’ as a tool to create FUD [fear, uncertainty and doubt] in the marketplace. Instead we use real-world customer testimonials instead of lab-created, situations to demonstrate the price, performance, scalability and security of Linux,”
So, RedHat is saying in plain English, that the best way to decide if their product is good, or better than its competitors is for YOU to evaluate the software yourself. Can you think of a better judge to determine if a software product is
good enough, or superior than its competitors for your requirements than YOU?
Now I see that you’ve used that phrase again, “Linux zealots”, even though I’ve already explained why
it’s not appropriate and is the hallmark of a troll.
Why don’t you specifically quote where in the article
does any Linux user “spread FUD”? Why don’t you to explain to us why those specific quotes are FUD?
I also see that you have made no attempt to refute
any of my observations concerning Windows zealots?
And that like the reversal of your first posting statement, “Windows zealots hate facts”, here again
we see that you are avoiding the facts that I have presented to you. Instead, you seem to be making another emotional polemic to distract attention
from the fact that you don’t seem to have any facts to back up your statements.
As a favor then to you, and to those who might not be able to easily determine that you’re trolling, I’m going to perform an information analysis of your last paragraph to help folks see what the real content of that paragraph is.
Here’s the quote:
=======================
Again, Linux zealots are just resorting to another round of Microsoft-bashing propoganda, spreading FUD and appealing to emotions instead of facts. If you want to prove that Linux is better, show real evidence instead of hiding behind hearsay, strawman arguments, and personal attacks on Microsoft. Let the tests be run.
========================
Now here’s the analysis:
1) Linux zealots — no such thing as I’ve already explained.
2) Microsoft-bashing propaganda.
First, let’s go over what propaganda is.
According to wikipedia:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda)
Propaganda is a specific type of message presentation aimed at serving an agenda….
The purpose of propaganda:
“The aim of propaganda is to influence people’s opinions actively, rather than to merely communicate the facts about something…..”
Now that we have some idea of what propaganda is, where in the article was there any Microsoft-bashing propaganda? Where was there any propaganda in my posting? I quoted to you facts that you can
easily gather from a quick google or search in
any public library with a decent storage of reputable
newspapers such as the New York Times, LA Times, etc.
3) your phrase “appealing to emotions instead of facts.” is rather odd, again, because there is no
such appeal in the article. Can you give us a quote
please? I certainly did no such thing. I stated
facts. However, it is curious that you seem to
make an appeal to emotions with your use of
“Linux zealots” “FUD” “Microsoft-bashing” “propaganda”.
4) “If you want to prove that Linux is better …”
This statement make much sense because as I stated
in my first posting, Linux is a meritocracy where
everything is evaluated and those things which are
good are kept and those which are not are thrown away. As I stated, anybody can make up their own
mind as to what their requirements are, what their
metrics are, and evaluate for themselves how well
the software works.
I can demonstrate to my
satisfaction is better than Windows because Linux
better satisfies my requirements. (For example:
various scripting languages, multiple choices of
applications, remote display back, extensive programming and system documentation, extensive
freedom to modify to fit my needs for software/hardware support, vast amounts of
software available to me (Debian has 14,000+
packages), ease of updating/maintaining software,
no need to worry about virus of the week attacks,
can freely install on whatever hardware I want without requiring some outsider’s permission,…
the list just goes on and on)
Since I don’t know your requirements then
it’s somewhat problematic for me to demonstrate
anything for you. Once again, YOU can evaluate
for yourself if Linux is as good or better for your needs.
5) “hiding behind hearsay, strawman arguments, and personal attacks on Microsoft.”
Which hearsay, strawman arguments and “personal attacks” are you referring to? Can you please quote
any of these from the article or my first posting?
As I stated before I posted facts that you can
easily look for yourself either on google
or any decent public library.
So, we have reduced this paragraph:
———————————-
Again, Linux zealots are just resorting to another round of Microsoft-bashing propoganda, spreading FUD and appealing to emotions instead of facts. If you want to prove that Linux is better, show real evidence instead of hiding behind hearsay, strawman arguments, and personal attacks on Microsoft. Let the tests be run.
——————————–
Down to:
Let the tests be run.
And I would add, if you really done right, you
should run the tests yourself to see with your
own eyes which software best satisfies your requirements.
I ran the test with Windows 3.1, 95, 98, 98 Second edition, Windows XP vs. Slackware ’96, RedHat 5.0,5.2, 6.0, Mandrake 7.2,8.0,8.1,9.0, SimplyMepis,
Knoppix 3.2 and up, Suse 9.1,9.2, Morphix, Gentoo, Cluster Knoppix, quantian, Ubuntu/Kubuntu and Debian (unstable + testing). In each case, I tested
Windows operating system against the contemporary Linux distros at the time, and in each case I found the Linux distros superior as based on my requirements above.
–Johnny
P.s. Are you just trolling or do you have an agenda? Do you work for Microsoft, or do you have personal/financial stake in its continued existence?
Emagius,
Re: “But that’s the point — Linux distributors and proponents refuse to use any sort of real metrics or facts, instead resorting to FUD. The linked article even has Red Hat flat-out refusing to use real testing, obviously due to fear of what it would reveal. Why do you fear testing done by the OSDL, whom Linus himself works for, of all organizations?
Again, Linux zealots are just resorting to another round of Microsoft-bashing propoganda, spreading FUD and appealing to emotions instead of facts. If you want to prove that Linux is better, show real evidence instead of hiding behind hearsay, strawman arguments, and personal attacks on Microsoft. Let the tests be run.”
You seem to have misunderstood the article and comment from Red Hat. Basically Linux vendors have no problem defending lies spread by MS which have been proven time and time again. The real issue that Linux vendors such as Red Hat, Novell, etc do not trust MS to keep results fair. Everytime MS is countered with facts proving their information for the public is false they find a new way to twist their so called test results. In case you’ve been out of the loop then here’s Novell’s counter to MS “Get the facts” FUD campaign http://www.novell.com/linux/truth/ which should provide you with the facts you desire. If it’s benchmarks then such results can be easily found by Googling for them. From an artist stand point I’ve seen for myself that highend software such as Maya, XSI, etc perform better on Novell SUSE Linux and Red Hat Linux than on Windows. I could go into this issue more with you but I think you’re most likely closed minded to hearing anything negative about MS even if it’s coming from a former MS advocate such as myself.
Thanks, that was quite eloquent.
2) You say “Linux zealots” hate facts. This is about
as an absurd a statement as I’ve seen.
Of course, just before this, you wrote a laundry list of reasons why nobody in their right mind would ever use Windows, most of which were false or completely irrelavent. But hey, I understand … you really have to say stupid shit like that because it is the only way to convert people to your religion – a religion that says if you create a piece of software and don’t willingly hand over the source code along with it, then you are Evil.
How can some bozo comment on the wrong article and get a score of 5?
[Adm. Ackbar]
It’s a trap!
[/Adm. Ackbar]
I am going to try and cut out all the “i love linux” stuff from this comment and be as objective as possible,but its still my opinion. ….
Its a trap !!!!
Think about… Microsoft can only gain from this situation.Look at the possible outcomes of this survey.
The research is done based on certain agreed criteria.
The results of the research show turn up some interesting negative facts for windows AND linux. ( Remember these are tested under lab conditions,wether it can happen that way in real life is not really questioned).
Microsoft is humble and <italics>accepts</italics> the facts, makes a few changes to their products and <italics>then funds its own research with out the involment of OSDL</italics>The results of the research
interestingly favour MS and how they have overcome previous flaws (in the previous research study)and that they have produced a better product and Linux is still lagging behind and havent done anything about theirs. ….
Scenario 2 :
MS comes out on top in the research and they continue with the “Get the facts” campaign that this is an unbiased result….
do you see where all this is going?
Of course its a trap! ….
OSDL won’t agree to this ! Which Linux Vendor is going found another research product to counter the claims. Microsoft generally knows this thats why they invited us into a game where they have more than one shot to nail us and we have only one…
Microsoft is humble and <italics>accepts</italics> the facts, makes a few changes to their products and <italics>then funds its own research with out the involment of OSDL</italics>The results of the research
interestingly favour MS and how they have overcome previous flaws (in the previous research study)and that they have produced a better product and Linux is still lagging behind and havent done anything about theirs. ….
That is a dumb arguement. Red Hat could turn around and look at the points against Linux in the survey and improve their own products. Somehow Microsoft is the only company capable of improving their products I take it?
“That is a dumb arguement. Red Hat could turn around and look at the points against Linux in the survey and improve their own products. Somehow Microsoft is the only company capable of improving their products I take it?”
I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that’s what the perception would be. I was not saying that linux
is/was lagging behind I am saying that people will remember the results of the surveys.
1. OSDL && MS survey were they both come out slightly negative
2. MS sponsered research where those bad points are overcome.
Wether linux has overcome them or not there will be no survey to say they or that they havent. In the mind of executives MS improved and linux hadnt…
Could you tell i was giving a possible scenario and what MS’s possible stance could be? Read the whole comment next time
Quoting from the article (emphasis added) :
But Microsoft’s Taylor disagrees that funded research is not useful, saying that a discussion on facts and independent data is always a benefit to the industry. “As much as Microsoft might get billed as being anti-Linux, that’s actually not the case. I just want people to judge technology on its merit versus on hype and emotion. It helps all of us build better products and respond to customer needs more effectively,” Taylor said.
Yeah, just look at the marketing campaign around Windows Vista…
“The Linux zealots hate facts, especially when they portray Linux in a poor light.”
“Linux zealots” do not have a monopoly on that behavior. You can say the same about zealots of any OS: Mac OS X, Windows, GNU/Linux, BSD, Solaris, etc. Please prove how the OSDL are zealots or are you trolling?
“Microsoft” and “facts” on the same phrase? That’s nonsense 🙂
Now for real, I don’t know one single study from them that’s factual. They always know how to mix up things so they look as they want to.
The last one, “Get the facts”, used completely different hardware to compare Windows and Linux. Plus, they completely hardened and configured Windows while they left Linux by default.
Quote: “Plus, they completely hardened and configured Windows while they left Linux by default.”
And here I was under the impression (an impression created by numerous GNU/Linux zealots) that GNU/Linux by default was hardened already. Yet another lie exposed.
Why would Microsoft offer to pay half the cost of a research campaign if they did not think that they would somehow come out ahead? Something is fishy here.
No company in its right mind would fund research that could be potentially damaging to its bottom line.
If OSDL accepts this offer, they are not wise. Microsoft is up to something in the larger scheme of things.
You know what? I bet i know what they’re up too: they want to wipe Linux and its derivatives off the map!
Why would Microsoft offer to pay half the cost of a research campaign if they did not think that they would somehow come out ahead? Something is fishy here.
That’s the real point. It’s not “fishy”. Of course Microsoft thinks it might end up ahead. It’s a very bold move to ask OSDL to do a research with them as they’re now nailed in a corner: refuse, and MS will go around stating that top OSS sponsors refused to perform a balanced comparison; accept, and it might end up that MS “facts” may have real “facts” inside of them.
So now we can see how independent and unbiased OSDL is. They can’t do anything but accept or people (including myself) will think they:
a) are not independent at all;
b) have “facts” to hide from general public;
Very bold move… I agree…
P.S. I saw comments here about a so-called “trap”… uh? What’s a trap? MS accepting to let their competitors to perform a comparison and fund it is a trap??
Is it just me, or can it NOT be INDEPENDENT if either Microsoft and/or OSDL is involved? Kind of like letting the fox and chickens report on the security of your henhouse and calling their reports “independent” and credible. Sorry but this whole artical falls flat on it’s face as it’s flawed from the get go. Geesh.
Hey we’re all over an independent review, problem is I’ve yet to see a credible report either way. As they say, “follow the money” if you want to get to the truth.
JT
Microsoft has a track record of sponsored anti-Linux studies. What can you excpect from that company and would you ever trust them?
but the bad thing is that CEOs will get to look at the figures and believe Microsofts lies once again and buy more of their vuneralbe crap
but the bad thing is that CEOs will get to look at the figures and believe Microsofts lies once again and buy more of their vuneralbe crap
Even worse,most executives are aware but can’t change because it’s economically not feasonable and in order to not jeapardize the companies IT investments they instead grunt their teeth and go on.
Microsoft, with this “Get the Facts” campaign is instigating a one-sided war. Its attempts to engage major Linux Distributors hasn’t worked, so they are trying a new tack. Problem is no one is interested to fight the war on MS terms. If any company wants to try a Linux Distribution, they can engage that particular distribution provider and figure out the facts and their needs for themselves.
Microsoft, with this “Get the Facts” campaign is instigating a one-sided war. Its attempts to engage major Linux Distributors hasn’t worked, so they are trying a new tack. Problem is no one is interested to fight the war on MS terms. If any company wants to try a Linux Distribution, they can engage that particular distribution provider and figure out the facts and their needs for themselves.
More like can you say threatened? There is the occasional peep out of Novell and Red Hat (moreso Novell) about comparisons between Linux and Windows. They don’t, however, run out and place ads that not only promote their own product, but bash the OS of the readers of the website (example:linuxtoday.com) on Windows centric websites, pay millions upon millions for so-called “Independant” reports, etc. Microsoft seems to feel threatened.
“One of the great mysteries of the age is why people put up with the MS pain. If the automobile industry produced such clumsy, insecure and vulnerable vehicles, those car company executives who had escaped lynching would be in jail for their own protection. And their companies would be bankrupt because consumers wouldn’t buy such lousy products. But somehow, computing’s different. And not just metaphorically – they are also legally privileged: Microsoft is allowed to produce faulty or unsafe products and are allowed to escape liability for the damage and stress they cause.”
The government agency where I work has been down since Tuesday. There are STILL machines that are ether infected or have not been patched. We have 3000 machines, we could of used SMS to push out the patches BUT the SMS server got infected!
MS will not do ANYTHING but try and make themselves look better and make Linux look bad. They will find the week points in Linux and try to compare them to the week points in Windows! They will do testing and then point and say “See, see, Linux is no better!” They will never DO anything to help Linux while they help themselves, that is for sure! (And I don’t exspect them to, but don’t try to make friends to do back stabbing!)
I don’t see how people could be so silly as to support this crap! I don’t get it. But then there are still people who support the war in Iraq even though no WMD’s have been found. Some people just can not admit when they are wrong!
Unfortunately, we live in a hopelessly corrupted society in which large private institutions, academic centers, and governmental bodies who are in the best position to show people a better alternative collude with those with influence and money for selfish purposes. Outright falsehoods are mixed with half-truths, voices speaking the truth are drowned by the many spigots of the supposedly free press spouting the same nonsense. Yes, we live in a free society, we can believe what we want, but it is so hard to know anymore what is true and what is not. Unlike totalitarian states in which the government outrightly and openly owned the press, and you knew its biases, ours is a country in which the boundaries between business, the press, and government are blurred beyond distinction at the highest levels and instead of active heavy handed suppression you have misinformation, and distratction offered in the press.
It is increasingly the case that knowing what is true and untrue requires first hand expertise. Even then, knowing how much and what to discard from “reseach” reports because of the investigators conflicts of interest can be impossible. It is refreshing to see that corporate sponsored research in the supposed interest of the public is viewed with skepticism, but this is just what happens in many industries, especially I would say the healthcare industry. A term that has come into vogue and is seen in a positive light is “physician-entrpreneurs”, a contradiction in terms if ever there was one.
Sorry for the rambling. Just wanted to spout off a little about the sorry state of our deceitful and hypocritical world.
Writing complicated software correctly is difficult. If the automobile industry thinks that it can usurp Microsoft’s role in the computing world with better results, then I wish they would already. As Microsoft has demonstrated, there’s an enormous amount of money to be made in being Microsoft.
As for the liability aspect, if much effort was put forth to hold programmers responsible for the unfortunate consequences of the complexity of software, then software would probably either become ridiculously expensive or the development would largely prosper outside the domain of liability. People don’t typically want to pay the costs associated with constructing correct software using formal methods, much as they don’t particularly wish to die in an automobile accident if it’s avoidable. Hence why people have regulated automobile safety, but are willing to accept software that just mostly works.
They propably only want to keep the OSDL guys busy…
Some people just can not admit when they are wrong!
Sure they can but it doesn’t seem to fit in their agenda and isn’t economically healthy for the ones who financed their campains.
Off topic:
But then there are still people who support the war in Iraq even though no WMD’s have been found.
Well if they wanted to liberate Iraq i would say they could have back in ’91.Now forteen years later it’s good for increasing the Oil prizes.And who benefits from that?Not the iraqy citizens.There’s still starvation.My guess:they thought to quickly liberate the land and in return get some oil at a bargain.Well that turned out to be a fairy tale to say the least.
If people want to talk about Iraq, there’s plenty of space on blogspot. Let’s not devolve into discussing politics.
“If people want to talk about Iraq, there’s plenty of space on blogspot. Let’s not devolve into discussing politics.”
And I would like to use this post to apologize for many of my recent posts, which have been littered with off-color and blatantly inappropriate references to politics, the war in Iraq, religion, and racism:
http://osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=11619&comment_id=21162
http://osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=11619&comment_id=21168
http://osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=11615&comment_id=21186
For God’s sake, DO NOT read these blasphemous and politically incorrect posts.
Doh! I’ve done it again. Good thing I’m Jewish…
“Again, Linux zealots are just resorting to another round of Microsoft-bashing propoganda, spreading FUD and appealing to emotions instead of facts.”
Pasted from someone else’s post:
a) Between 80,000-120,000 known viruses, trojans, and malwares depending on which antivirus company you consult.
b) Cannot survive connected on the internet
without additional security measures such as
3rd party firewall vendors longer than 20 minutes
on average before becoming owned by someone else.
c) Was involved in the loss of power for several days for approximately 50,000,000 people when a trojan infected laptop was permitted access to the network of a powerplant in Ohio causing a denial of service
in the warning system preventing workers from being
informed of a surge of power that caused a cascade of
power failures across the northeastern united states
d) Requires a user to register himself/herself everytime he/she chooses to install the operating system on a new computer or even perform a reinstallation once too many times.
e) Comes with no programming environments, no choice
of internet applications, no office suites, no multimedia editing software by default.
f) Keeps track of which dvd videos you choose to play
and transmits that information back to headquarters
g) Chooses to make interconnectivity to other operating systems as difficult as possible.
You call this FUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The worst thing OSDL can do is to refuse this joint research.
By refusing to participate, they would only show that they are afraid that Linux might come out in bad light even when they are part of deciding what will be tested, and how, etc.
RedHat refers to “real-world customer testimonials” as if company B have the same needs as company A that did the testimonial.
With a proper set of tests that take into account many different situation that might come up in the real world, a company would much easier be able to decide which solution would fit them best, where solution can be windows based, linux based, or mixed…
OSDL needs to take up this offer or they will be ridiculed as cowards and noone will listen to them when they complain about research sponsored by MS alone.
“The worst thing OSDL can do is to refuse this joint research.
By refusing to participate, they would only show that they are afraid that Linux might come out in bad light even when they are part of deciding what will be tested, and how, etc.”
Listen to yourself… you must have had a horrible time dealing with the bullies in elementary school. The only way to deal with a bully is to ignore them, and this is what OSDL needs to do. Strike that, it’s what they *are* doing.
“RedHat refers to “real-world customer testimonials” as if company B have the same needs as company A that did the testimonial.
With a proper set of tests that take into account many different situation that might come up in the real world, a company would much easier be able to decide which solution would fit them best, where solution can be windows based, linux based, or mixed… ”
No two companies are alike, and this is why these analyst studies are bullshit. So, you think while reading a bunch of testimonials of real customer experiences is a stupid idea, making a decision based a composite of customer experiences is a good idea…
Your rhetoric reminds me of the politicians I hate the most. It’s more important to be resolute than correct. It’s better to send the right message than do the right thing.
I know, politics doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the topic at hand, and it really shouldn’t. But MS is playing politics here, and the OSDL realizes that politics has nothing to do with what’s best for our country^H^H^H^H^H^H^H customers.
“…all I care about is whether or not
the software performs to my requirements”
————-
Perhaps Windows meets his. Including your assumption he is into gaming. That would be a requirement too, would it not? Having many common apps like Photoshop could be another requirement. So could “using what they use at school”.
There are many Windows apps available that don’t have competition on Linux. Many.
If you really believed it was all about “whether or not the software performs to my requirements” you would let others choose on the same basis – with pure freedom – without making assumptions or discounting certain needs as less valid than your particular needs.
LOL. Once again, the open source movement is proven to be nothing more than hot air.
how about they do a test on the security of the average users windows system vs the average users linux system…. a test on say.. 100 of each, heck… throw 100 mac machines in there to.
bombard all the systems with viruses, worms, adware, spyware and try to exploit all know holes and back doors
all systems would have to be tested with the users standard configuration, not after some security expert goes through and tweaks them.
Then do all the same tests to the same computers after a security expert got their hands on it and did his duty.
how about they do a test on the security of the average users windows system vs the average users linux system…. a test on say.. 100 of each, heck… throw 100 mac machines in there to.
bombard all the systems with viruses, worms, adware, spyware and try to exploit all know holes and back doors
all systems would have to be tested with the users standard configuration, not after some security expert goes through and tweaks them.
Then do all the same tests to the same computers after a security expert got their hands on it and did his duty.
Testing an average users system would help determine benefits and weak spots in Windows Server and distros such as Red Hat Enterprise Linux and SUSE Linux Enterprise Server how exactly?
perhaps I should have been more clear
This was simply an analogy.
My point with this was do you think MS would agree to such a test?….. not a snowballs chance because they know they would get their butts kicked.
Microsoft will never agree to any testing that they cannot somehow twist to make them money and given their past track record, they are less then honest.
OSDL’s mission is to develop open software. Why should they waste a single penny playing with any closed-software vendors? OSDL should not get into this game.
The results would never be credible within the OSS community anyways. What distro would OSDL use? No matter what they did, some section of the community will say they did it wrong.
If MS and a commercial Linux vendor want to play with marketing studies, that’s another story. Then you have some starting rules that make sense: M$ vs. Di$tro.
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meh. sorry, didn’t come out as I expected. I wonder why preview won’t work with konqueror..
I wonder why preview won’t work with konqueror..
Pop-up blocker or javascript turned off. (Not using Konqueror at the moment…or your system.)
It’s just natural that both camps would pump up their own side and diss the other side.
OSDL are corporate lackeys, nothing more and nothing less. Anyone that’s a member of OSDL is also a corporate lackey. People can, and do get bought out.
Dave
More and more i’m hearing from Microsoft “lets leave religion aside and talk about who’s technically superior”.
This is because Microsoft can’t compete on the so-called “religious” issues. You know, the ones that believe we should own our own computers. Even if Windows was shown to be technically superior to GNU/linux, it doesn’t change the fact that Windows doesn’t respect its users.
For instance, look at Windows Activation. Its honestly not really that big a deal right now. You install windows, you connect to the internet, and it activates. It takes 2 seconds. However, we’re at the mercy of Microsoft to continue providing activation servers. At any time, M$ can simply pull the plug, and hundreds of XP Home and Pro CDs will be rendered useless.
Same thing with bugs: we’re at the mercy of microsoft to patch defects. On an open source platform, we can fix the defects ourselves or even pay someone else to fix it for us.
As much as Microsoft would like to write off software freedom as a “religous” issue, its relevant, and its important.
This is because Microsoft can’t compete on the so-called “religious” issues. You know, the ones that believe we should own our own computers. Even if Windows was shown to be technically superior to GNU/linux, it doesn’t change the fact that Windows doesn’t respect its users.
Of course it doens’t, but then again .. Corporate America doesn’t care about its customers either. For example, whehn you buy a car, do you really think the car company gives a shit one way or the other whether you live or die? As far as they’re concerned, you’re just a number. And the ‘crimes’ committed by dealerships I think would pale in comparison to anything MS has ever done. Not saying that MS is in the right, but they are hardly different than anyone else you do business with.
Of course, many Linux developers don’t give a shit about you either. The stuff the build, they build for themselves and the fact that you happen to like and use the app is just a side bonus.
Corporate America doesn’t care about its customers either. For example, whehn you buy a car, do you really think the car company gives a shit one way or the other whether you live or die?
Right, but software is sort of a different beast. For instance, what we’re dealing with with Windows is comparable to a car that won’t start unless you prove you bought it from an authorized dealer.
Or a car that watches everywhere you drive and then reports back to Honda, Ford, or whoever all that information.
But even with a car, you could probably remove that spy device, with Windows, there’s not much we can do to stop it.
“But even with a car, you could probably remove that spy device, with Windows, there’s not much we can do to stop it.”
..yeah there is:
format c: /u/v
Yes!! It is just as important to talk about the “religious” aspects of IT choices as it is to talk about the technical aspects. It might not be as important in making the actual decision, but it is a factor that cannot be ignored when it comes to marketing free software.
None of the marketing schemes, corporate partnerships, and cozy political arrangements can change the fact that free software can do no evil. It can’t change the fact that free software is driven by interest, not by greed. It can’t change the fact that the free software movement occupies the moral high ground.
MS must shift the focus away from the religious and moral aspects of IT decision-making for the same reason that the Republicans frame their policies around morality. The Democrats *might* have a better platform in some respects, but it doesn’t matter to many voters because they know the Republicans are all about promoting family values and keeping the world a safer place. It doesn’t matter if it’s true, it only matters that the rhetoric jives with the collective social consciousness.
If it works for them, it can work for free software. Spread the word: Free Software is all about family values, social responsibility, and (read me lips) no taxes. It’s about providing a solution to a world overrun by terrorists and monopolists. It’s about the right to life, it’s about the right to bear arms, it’s about the sanctity of marriage, it’s about tracking them down and killing them where they live, it’s about our love of Our Lord Jesus Christ, it’s about our fighting men overseas who are in our prayers. Glory, glory, hallelujah!!
Well, you get my point: It’s about politics and religion just as much as it is about technology and TCO… at least when it comes to convincing IT decision makers.
It’s better to call them what they are: Political issues.
But you’re right. Microsoft can’t beat “free as in freedom…”
And that’s why Richard Stallman has been right, about that point, for so long: Emphasizing the freeness, or openness, is key; not the technical advantages.
Of course, freeness does have technical advantages..
I just don’t like the guy…. He’s such a … what’s the word … MARKETING REP.
I hate marketing people… It’s like, “I went to school for 4 years to learn how to lie without legally lying.”
Linux is about stability and lowering costs. Which Linux distro or company has money to throw away on trying to compete with Microsoft’s billion $$ marketing budgets?? How long would any of them last in a dollar for dollar advertising slugfest??
Every year Linux is gaining market share by doing exactly what it is best at – proving its usefulness through real world deployments. Happy clients are a better way to spread the truth and a more viable long term approach. Buying customers by dubious marketing manipulations or contrived test scenarios is only about money, not facts.
For those who think Linux people and companies are scared to take on the 900lb gorilla. Think again – every new Linux user or deployment is eroding some of Microsoft’s monopoly. It is by this method that real competition is being introduced into the IT sector and not by trying to play poker against an opponent with millions of dollars to throw away.
Example: Microsoft spent $300 million on advertising SP2 for their 4 year old XP. Can you imagine Debian spending $300 million to let people know they can “apt-get upgrade” Sarge!? Even if Microsoft offered to pay half of Debian’s cost – it still would be an absurd proposition.
Yes Microsoft shouldn’t be trusted given it’s past behavior. But if we are to trust Open Source than we shall do an analysis on the two Operating Systems and both campes will learn what areas need the most work.
Sounds Macciavalian … but I would bet my left testicle that there is another, more sinister agenda here …
Seems that the Linux community in general always seems to run away from arguments where real, down-to-earth, honest facts may come into play; I wonder why that is?
You’ve answered your own questions. It’s your network administrator’s fault not Microsoft’s. They’ve failed to protect a critical piece of infrastructure (your SMS server) as well as failing to protect your 3000 machines. Sack them. They’ve had years to learn their lesson through Blaster, Slammer and friends. They’ve been given the tools both paid and free to solve the problem. They haven’t. They’re either lazy or incompetent.
I’m a bit relieved not being the only one who thinks this way.
see above.
The OSDL is stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one imo; if they accept who’s to say MS won’t cheat and then say that the OSDL can’t accept the “facts” when the MS claims are challenged, and if the OSDL refuses to participate MS will simply jump right to saying they can’t accept the “facts”.
I don’t care for these “facts” whether they are comming exclusively from the OSDL or from Microsoft, I use both Linux and Windows and find both acceptable, but preffer Linux because I know it much better and find it to be a much more powerful development platform. I personally don’t give a rodent’s posterior whether one platform can serve web pages or access a database any faster than the other, they both work on my computers, they just don’t get equal attention 🙂 .
When, please tell me when people in their right minds will realise that such “campaign”s are nothing more than yet another pr stunt ? When do people realise, that an OS will not be good because of the sh*t loads of comparisons, studies, “independent” reports, experiments, showcases, etc. that you make about it — and that because 1). you can 2). you can’t do anything else to make the damn OS better. So, if it ain’t going to be better, make people believe alltohers are junk, so out OS will seem better than the others. Same old, same old.
On the professional front, if someone who cries out loud about being an IT pro and still depeneds on such MS-initiated whatever types and kinds of campaigns and studies and whatnot, deserves less income than an ethiopian hungering child.
And, again, Microsoft’s Get the Facts campaigns… I don’t think they deserve _any_ news at all. Let alone OSNews, or other [really] pro sites.
It was mostly because of those misinformation that got people locked in the first place.We really don’t need to cooperate with MS on a “facts” study.They should simply write their own facts with good software simple as that.
Success for us is getting past all the hype and emotion and where people choose technology on its merits
That, coming out of the mouth of an employee of Earth’s largest pr show company, who eats and drinks hype for breakfast.
Well in my college they have a lot of server’s and the one who have win 2003 is always down
compared with Linux server’s he he he that’s a fact 
Windows 2003 is cool to local networks, local domain’s unfortunaly the joe user like’s Windows in his desktop, that’s why windows 2003 is needed…
Personaly i don’t understand MS they always have strong marketing, that’s why they have sell that windows 9x crap. But now if they have a good product why they are always talking about Linux, they only show us that Linux in fact is a alternative, a good and each day a better alternative to Windows Server’s.
Let Me see; grsecurity + paX, SELinux in kernel, apache, mysql, postgres, php, postfix, courier, horde even mono … etc, etc. This are all great packs, free and cool.
Did They(MS) put in their fact’s grsecurity + paX ???
guess not.
Why they don’t put in their fact’s *BSD too ?
They know that their products don’t worth the value that they ask us to pay for them and that’s a real fact!
Linux doesn’t really need that proposed survey.In fact without it’s raiding allready the server rooms.So who needs that “fact” based survey/study the most?Do you really think the fat limo driven corpses would like to see their profit decreasing?They really don’t give a sh*t.All that is important is profit en masse.
Extremely clever of Microsoft to do this…
Just shy of brilliant.
IF OSDL declines to go forward with this: MS has a club to swing the every time OSDL is critical of a MS funded study.
IF OSDL goes forward the report will be a mixture of both the good and the bad for everyone involved. The outcome is fairly predictable with the entire report being open to interpretation by all sides.
In the end MS will win the “spin game” based on absolutely unlimited advertising dollars to promote their view of the results.
This type of organized exploitation by Microsoft and “others” is going to prove very difficult for open source to defend itself against.
This type of organized exploitation by Microsoft and “others” is going to prove very difficult for open source to defend itself against.
Not at all,every outcome of a funded research project that is financed (or partly) by the (any) vendor itself is suspicious to say the least.
This type of organized exploitation by Microsoft and “others” is going to prove very difficult for open source to defend itself against.
“Not at all,every outcome of a funded research project that is financed (or partly) by the (any) vendor itself is suspicious to say the least.”
MS simply “ate their lunch” on this one.
I defecated on my Windows CD. I’d rather pay Mike Tyson to beat the shit out of me every day than use ANY Microsoft product.