I frequently write about Windows, Edge, and other Microsoft-adjacent technologies as part of my day job, and I sign into my daily-use PCs with a Microsoft account, so my usage patterns may be atypical for many Ars Technica readers. But for anyone who uses Windows, Edge, or both, I thought it might be useful to detail what I’m doing to clean up a clean install of Windows, minimizing (if not totally eliminating) the number of annoying notifications, Microsoft services, and unasked-for apps that we have to deal with.
↫ Andrew Cunningham at Ars Technica
Five pages of nonsense you have to go through to make Windows 11 somewhat less of a trashfire. I can’t believe we’ve reached a point where this is normal and accepted, and often even defended by Windows users, here on OSNews as well. I know “just install Linux” generally isn’t a helpful comment, but at what point is installing Linux the path of least resistance compared to whatever the hell this is? Especially now that most work is done online in the browser anyway?
Installing linux is the path of least resistance but using it might not unfortunately.
With windows, you take time installing it and configuring all this sh%@t but afterwards (in between updates) it remains quite straightforward to use without much “surprises”. With linux, sadly, you remain at the mercy of a missing proprietary tool or format that you might end up needing to work with others, especially at work, and it can take a lot of energy to find a solution. I said “sadly” because otherwise it is now much more straightforward to both install and use.
Faster way : https://atlasos.net/
https://www.osnews.com/story/135547/atlas-third-party-windows-iso-for-gaming/
I’d really would be wary of installing an OS from an unofficial image. You never know what it comes with, it may have some kind of RAT or keylogger baked in without easy way to remove it. This is why I’ve never messed with Atlas or Tinywhatever, no matter how smaller and faster they’re said to be.
darkhog,
That’s understandable but at the same time it’s open source…
https://github.com/atlas-os/atlas
I agree. While I would love to be able to use Linux, my most important apps do not work: excel, powerpoint, word, and Total Commander. WinRAR also. Yes, I know there are alternatives, but I rather deal with Window’s problems that with Linux’s.
And don’t get me wrong, what they have done is incredible: a full operating system without support from the OEMS (I mean, 99% of the drivers come from the community).
At the same time, Linux is so fragmented, in distros, windows managers, music stacks, etc., that I always wonder how the state of linux will be if they had been less fragmentation.
kwanbis,
That’s fair. Linux isn’t for everyone and that’s ok. I don’t think it’s good to pressure someone into using an OS they don’t want. That only sets them up for a bad experience. The motivation should come from within.
That said though, know that a lot of simple windows utilities do actually work on linux too. Just now I downloaded/installed/ran total commander and it worked out of the box with no tweaking. I would think winrar works too, although I’m not sure about ms office.
Indeed.
That’s true. It’s hard to say with certainty that things would be better with fewer projects. You are right to point out the costs of fragmentation, but on the other hand having projects that compete does bring it’s own benefits. I look at something like macos – a high degree of standardization across the user base, but the unix tooling there tends to be very stale and not innovative.
Another aspect is that, while still acknowledging the costs of fragmentation, the availability of alternative desktops can be beneficial for users. For example, I was a fan of gnome until they put out gnome shell, which I hated. After that I was glad I could switch to a KDE desktop.
Some of these fragmented projects have caused issues for users though, I think you touched on a highly multifaceted subject here.
> That’s fair. Linux isn’t for everyone and that’s ok. I don’t think it’s good to pressure someone into using an OS they don’t want. That only sets them up for a bad experience. The motivation should come from within.
Linux could be very good for that 80% of the people that do everything on the browser nowadays.
> That said though, know that a lot of simple windows utilities do actually work on linux too. Just now I downloaded/installed/ran total commander and it worked out of the box with no tweaking. I would think winrar works too, although I’m not sure about ms office.
I know. I used wine, crossover office, and other variants. But the main ones (office, project and visio in my case) do not work well. Or only very old versions work. I monitor the winedb.
> That’s true. It’s hard to say with certainty that things would be better with fewer projects. You are right to point out the costs of fragmentation, but on the other hand having projects that compete does bring it’s own benefits. I look at something like macos – a high degree of standardization across the user base, but the unix tooling there tends to be very stale and not innovative.
>Another aspect is that, while still acknowledging the costs of fragmentation, the availability of alternative desktops can be beneficial for users. For example, I was a fan of gnome until they put out gnome shell, which I hated. After that I was glad I could switch to a KDE desktop.
I had the same problem. I hated Gnome3. Luckyly there is mate.
I agree with you in that competition (in this case by fragmentation) brings some benefits. But like with anything, there is a point of dimishing return.
We have what, 100 distros that compete? Of course, most of them are repackages of other distros and such, but the time used (or wasted depending how you see it) has to be terrible.
kwanbis,
Yes, no debate there 🙂
Ok. I mentioned it because you said “my most important apps do not work: excel, powerpoint, word, and Total Commander. WinRAR also.” and I wanted to see if any of them worked under wine.
I do accept your point, the field is so overcrowded that distros are hopelessly lost in the crowd. Some do bring something genuinely new to the table…
https://gobolinux.org/
But in all likelihood the ideas and work they’ve done will remain obscure.
I developed my own distro too. It’s extremely lightweight only containing what I need on routers & servers. The root file system is a ramdisk squashfs where everything is loaded at boot. This is exceptionally fast and robust compared to mainstream distros. Even if the FS is wiped/corrupted, it comes back to a known good configuration with a reboot. Also, because of my requirements, I developed an in memory init system that could dynamically run adhoc jobs and does not depend on the file system. There are other distros that work like this today and I appreciate that it is exactly the sort of fragmentation you are criticizing. In my defense this was original when I built mine 🙂
I think a lot of people who are making distros & kernels do so not necessarily because there’s demand for yet another fork but because it’s a very good way to learn. I’m not sure if there’s a better way to optimize our collective labor while not making us feel like a cog in the machine doing someone else’s bidding. We subject ourselves to this at work because we get paid, but most of us don’t want to have a boss for our free time.
AFAIK both Total Commander and older versions of MS Office do work via wine, and it would be only a matter of time until actual MSO works on Linux as MS really wants to make it web-only. As for WinRAR, while it also does work via Wine, there are a variety of Linux archivizers such as Ark that have similar look and feel to WinRAR, but supports basically every format imaginable (both write and read), including obscure ones such as ARJ and LHA.
I am not aware of anything that’s 1:1 Total Commander clone on Linux (or even similar), but if you want to go classic, there’s Midnight Commander that’s a nice open source Norton Commander clone (which Total Commander is also a clone of).
I doubt MS wants to make it web only. Their most important differentiator with Googel Workspace or wahtever they are calling it now, is the desktop apps. I love Google Workspace, I use Google Sheets, Google Docs, and Google Slides a lot, and it covers 90% of my use cases, but, for the remaining 10%, specially very heavy files, OFfice 365 is the way.
“With linux, sadly, you remain at the mercy of a missing proprietary tool or format that you might end up needing to work with others”
That’s very narrow. As someone who’s been using windows since 3.1, linux (various) since slack3.x/debian slink times and also macos recently (5+ years), I’ve always said: use the right tool, in this case OS&associated apps&tools. If your work requires full windows compatibility, don’t use linux for work, if your PC use is 99% gaming, don’t use mac or linux, mmkay? Other than that, use what you like. And when it comes down to personal preference, tolerance level, masochism and what not, pick windows if you want and don’t if you don’t.
I’ve been having lots of windows using relatives and friends who, after getting accustomed to reach out to me when running into issues, have also come to accept that whenever they get a new windows pc (or need a new windows install) their first order of business if to let me clean that up for them. All they know I sometimes curse during the process, and drink quite a few pepsis, but in the end they can actually use their windows’s.
It’s very OK to have articles like the one above from time to time to remind people how huge a pile of crap a default windows install keeps being.
Of course it is okay. I don’t disagree.
My work doesn’t require anything and I am using both linux and windows. And sadly windows always has a little edge in productivity due to others tools and tbh it still takes less time to somewhat deshit windows than to handle incompatibilities day to day. I am still trying regularly though just for fun and for philosophical reasons.
If Linux were good, people would switch in greater numbers. It is literally no different than the restaurant business. How long has it been since people suddenly realized Wayland didn’t have remote desktop support after distros started switching over? Microsoft and Apple know they can pull this OS as an ad platform because they know Desktop Linux is never going to be a serious competitor. Most people just ignore it and get on with their lives, So Linux and its constant surprises aren’t worth it.
dark2,
I’ve been complaining about Wayland over this issue as well and I wish they’d do more faster. But I don’t necessarily agree with your conclusion either. All of these platforms are moving targets most linux users find it’s improving with time. Not over night, but still improving.
You’re entitled to think that, you get to make your own choices. But know that the opposite is true too. When desktop linux users look back at windows and we see that microsoft are embracing anti-features: forced accounts, ads, tracking subscription services….honestly these trends have a very repulsive effect for many even including windows users. Don’t forget that MS actually tried to turn windows into a closed walled garden in windows 8, which I’m glad failed, but does a company that wants to do this deserve our trust?
It’s not all bad, there are some nice things like WSL, but when microsoft are focusing so many of their development resources on anti-features it gives a bad taste for many users. This comes from a long time windows user – I for one feel no temptation to go back given what’s happening with windows.
One particular aspect I’ve found frustrating with Linux is just working with simple things like the system clipboard, which in other operating systems “just works”.
Gnome by default doesn’t come with a clipboard manager, so you need to install GPaste just to consistently share a clipboard between the Terminal and other programs (I make heavy use of copy-on-select).
A new problem gets introduced: my non-Wayland IDE is now also doing copy-on-select. Horrible experience for any type of text or code editing, as you can’t simply select a text and paste the clipboard contents over it (because as soon as you make a selection, it overrides the main clipboard content).
I don’t need to worry about any of this in e.g. Windows 10 + WSL Ubuntu + Windows Terminal, where I get copy-on-select, a system-wide clipboard manager out of the box (WinKey + V), and consistent behavior.
FriendBesto,
I must be confused about what you mean, but don’t enable gpaste copy on select in standard applications and use your terminal settings instead? I never use copy on select personally, but I checked and konsole has a setting for it…
https://ibb.co/98D4W9C
Is that what you’re looking for?
Alfman,
That’s the correct option in Konsole. But Gnome Terminal doesn’t have it.
FriendBesto,
Can’t you switch to a terminal program that supports the feature? I haven’t tried, but it seems this would work a lot easier than something like gpaste. which I’m seeing lots of users having issues with it.
https://github.com/Keruspe/GPaste/issues/267
https://github.com/Keruspe/GPaste/issues/344
https://askubuntu.com/questions/1399095/updates-broke-gpaste-clipboard-manager
“Can’t you switch to a terminal program that supports the feature?” is the exact opposite of “just works”. If your only suggestion is to switch applications, or desktop environments, or entire distributions, you have lost the “just works” argument.
djhayman,
Woah take it easy there, haha. I’m just pointing out the feature exists, that’s all.
Do you realize how hypocritical that accusation is though? I’ve been installing tons of alternative software on windows for ages because the built in tools out of the box didn’t suite me. So what? I certainly wouldn’t fire back at someone who was trying to help with a “If your only suggestion is to switch applications then you have lost the ‘just works’ argument.” That’s not helpful at all.
For good measure, here are some recent windows examples.
https://www.osnews.com/story/138645/windows-as-a-nuisance-how-i-clean-up-a-clean-install-of-windows-11-and-edge/#comment-10436637
https://www.osnews.com/story/138580/microsoft-is-bringing-copilot-ai-to-notepad-for-windows-11/#comment-10436350
Using 3rd party tools to Improving the out of box experience is very common, people are just trying to help.
I finally settled on disabling GPaste’s sync between selection and clipboard, and using the middle mouse click for pasting the selection from Gnome Terminal. GPaste is still good to keep around in order to have a history of the clipboard.
Linux has dozens of terminals, you can just pick a good one. Until very very recently, Windows didn’t even have a good native terminal. What exactly are you comparing here? it can’t be Windows terminals to Linux terminals…
CaptainN-,
You have to admit, it’s ironic that Windows—which as you correctly note, “until very very recently, didn’t even have a good native terminal”—gets it right on the very first try, while on *the* terminal-centric alternative that’s been worked on for literal decades you have a whole bunch of options to try from, and it’s still hard to get things to work the one way you want them to. I’m always rooting for the Linux desktop to get things right, but from my experience it’s just not there yet in so many ways. Looking forward to Plasma 6 and COSMIC DE.
FriendBesto,
This has got to be an ironic joke. The console on windows was terrible for decades – even for windows users. Copying/pasting was infuriating. I would ask myself why it was so bad and why microsoft felt it was passable for so long.
What you’re complaining about is a difference in norms. It’s like complaining about the difference between wordperfect, wordstar, word, vi, emacs and so on key bindings. Obviously when you are used to one the others can seem foreign and obtuse. Wordstar (as well as other tools that shared the keybindings) had some nice editing features that I had to give up on windows, that’s the way it goes when you are accustomed to one and thrown into a different environment.
You are entitled to your own preferences and if gnome terminal doesn’t suit you, that’s fine. No judgement there. But 1) you not liking it doesn’t make it inferior for linux users who have different norms that you. 2) you are welcome to use software that’s more to your liking. 3) with FOSS you have a better opportunity to become involved, like putting in feature requests. If your polite and the developers agree it’s a good idea, there’s a decent chance your feature can get implemented.
But if you’re not willing to adapt to anything that isn’t a direct clone of your old environment, then I suggest linux is not for you (or macos for that matter). Reactos may be more up your alley, but unfortunately it may never become production ready. I honestly think your best bet, given the aversion to change, is simply to stick with windows.
>”If Linux were good, people would switch in greater numbers.”
No, only an extremely tiny percentage of people ever switch OS’s on the computer they buy. GNU/Linux does amazingly well despite being almost entirely shut out of the OEM consumer desktop/laptop marketplace. The vast majority of people to this day do not even know that it exists.
This is a cop out, just like restaurants, people try something new, or go back and try a restaurant they had a bad experience with before. If it’s good they’ll tell other people and it will naturally attract more people. No need for cart before the horse nonsense like pre-installated. That’s just the way the real world works, and Linux market share reflects quality of the product. Of it were even just on par with Windows, it would slowly gain market share comparable with Windows or Mac.
dark2,
Haha, linux is not really like a new restaurant that people pass by and visit. I agree with anyprough, most consumers don’t even know that linux and therefor have never formed any opinions about it.
That the world works this way (ie alt-os doesn’t get prebundled), does not rebut the point that “The vast majority of people to this day do not even know that it exists.”. It actually reinforces andyprough’s point.
Want to edit:
…don’t even know that linux exists…
People ARE switching to Linux – just not the way you imagine. They are using Android devices, Steam Decks, and all sorts of other appliances. In large companies (IBM, etc.), many developers I know use Linux as their primary Operating System.
I actually think the damn is cracking in let’s call them “enthusiast” circles – PC builders, and the like (ostensibly “gamers,” but they are really PC tinkerers). There’s a LOT of activity around movement to Linux happening there.
Does that mean general consumers are switching? Well yes – them too. They are buying Chromebooks (small backslide in market share in the last year – but they were up to 9% of PC shipments recently). There’s a whole new generation growing up with Chromebooks at school. Schools and similar institutions are also requiring their adult professionals to use those same platforms.
Users are switching. You just need to be willing to count them.
The restaurant analogy misses the point. In this case, there is a row of restaurants with names like “Windows” and “MacOS”, but there is no restaurant called “GNU/Linux desktop OS”, so the hungry person can’t try out the cooking on restaurant row. They have to buy a cookbook and buy the ingredients and try the cooking themselves at home, which most hungry eaters are not willing to do. If the “GNU/Linux desktop OS” cooking ever did become popular and someone tried to build a restaurant, the owners of the “Windows” and “MacOS” restaurants would write exclusive contracts with all the restaurant supply vendors so that the “GNU/Linux desktop OS” restaurant could not survive in business.
There are “restaurants” called Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, Arch, Nobara, etc. “Linux” was never the right comparison for something like Windows or macOS – a desktop distribution is the right surface to compare, not the kernel, or a windowing platform.
Linux IS good, but people are lazy and can’t be bothered to try. And they hardly know it exists due to the bundling of Windows on virtually all PCs.
But soon WINDOWS will be the only way due to security and law. We’re seeing a shift in society towards dictatorship.
And too many of the average Linux users now likely are on a level of newbie Windows users and highly susceptible to being hacked due to all the new CPU, IME, UEFI, BADUSB hacks.
andyprough, Alfman and bugjacobs are right in that “most people don’t know that Linux exists”. I am from India and from a small city. I get strange looks from people when I tell them that I have been using Linux as my daily driver since the last 13 years. Then I am asked questions like “what version of Windows is that ?” and “does it have a GUI ?”
But there’s a silver lining. The Linux market share on the desktop in India is around 15% and most of the “unknown” 10% is also Linux. https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/india This has happened because of the efforts of some Universities and some state governments.
AFAIK in EU there’s also a Linux push. Many universities in Poland are mostly Linux and not just CompSci depts.
The “don’t use Linux for gaming” point is becoming less and less defensible by the minute. Linux is VERY viable for Windows gaming now. Very very viable – better even, in some ways.
Yeah, hopefully it will be nearly perfect by Win10’s EOL date so that big gaming companies can no longer justify not making their game work on Linux on purpose (even if by “work on Linux” we only understand working via Proton, not a native port). Especially talking about games with windows-only anticheats.
Microsoft has an effective monopoly on win32, and monopolies can do whatever they want to customers who want access to the thing they have a monopoly on.
Simply put, Microsoft could demand that Windows users personally blow Satya Nadella once every year and some people who rely on win32 would do it.
Nonsense, no Windows users defend that, unless we count obvious trolls.
Indeed, it isn’t.
When Desktop Linux is sold pre-installed on PCs at common retail shops (not semi-obscure websites like System 76) and has excellent or near-excellent win32 compatibility (basically the same level of compatibility post-Vista versions of Windows have among each other).
In other words, the Steam Deck (SteamOS) is the only hope of breaking Microsoft’s win32 monopoly.
Sure, but lots of high-value work happens natively. And then there are the games. BTW this is a variant of “Desktop Linux has 90% of the apps the average user wants”. Well, guess what, that other 10% is also very important to users, and everyone’s “other 10%” is different. Anyway, Google is already exploiting the niche of users whose needs are covered 100% by a browser, so you can visit GS statcounter and see how they are doing.
kurkosdr,
+1!
Even as a linux user, I agree it hard to do the conversion from windows to linux. A lot of it has to do with the fact that windows is bundled and officially supported whereas linux is not. This means users have to support themselves, which obviously not all of them can. They shouldn’t be required to. It’s proving very hard to achieve critical mass because, for software vendors and hardware manufacturers, supporting a small platform is hard to justify financially. In the hosting world the tables are actually flipped and windows is hard to justify.
What could perhaps work is if codeweaver or someone else would build a commecial win32 app store for linux, including user ratings.
Software editors would pay a fixed fee to have their app listed there, the store would provide basic support for compatibilities issues so that editors do not need to bother with those and users would pay an additional fee for each app (ala apple store) to support this as well. Obviously, not everyone would be interested (eg. microsoft) but that would provide some basic financial incentives to further improve wine tools.
I am not sure why it works so well with games but as much not with other apps, is that just the weight of Valve or more universal graphical frameworks ?
Then a good wine flatpack runtime (whatever that means) could be a game changer.
thomas,
That could work, hypothetically. I still think it could be difficult to achieve critical mass. Consider the linux desktop marketshare is relatively small 2%, and not all of them will want to open their wallets to pay for win32 software. A lot of linux users & distros have a strong preference for FOSS. A debate would ensure over DRM – linux users hate it, developers might insist on it, etc.
I’m glad companies like steam are helping bring software to linux. This needed to happen and it needs to happen with broader applications too, Honestly there’s resistance in supporting the software developers that won’t provide native linux software. I bought the game “stray” for the kids. As with most titles, the publisher only supports windows. Running it through proton has bugs and crashes. I don’t feel very good about spending money on products when the developers won’t support linux natively. But such problems aside, it’s important for developers to see that linux has a growing user base and it may encourage more linux development in the future.
Stray is listed as “platinum” on ProtonDB btw:
https://www.protondb.com/app/1332010
This summarizes my main gripe with Proton: Even stuff that’s listed as working has weird issues.
I’d rather not give Windows a hotmail/outlook account (this silences most of the junk) and ignore the rest.
For me, Desktop Linux with Proton is more like an insurance policy I hope I never have to cash.
kurkosdr,
Others have similar problems in the forums. It could be a coincidence, but I’ve only noticed the game breaking shortly after new “achievements” and not when replaying without new achievements. Makes me wonder if playing offline would make a difference. It’s likely a legit bug in the game that doesn’t get triggered in windows for some reason, who knows, but agree weird things can show up.
There are plenty of games that work fine under linux, but sometimes you want a specific title and that’s when the linux gaming experience can be a let down because it’s not there. I think the kids might like the harry potter game, but it has the same deal: proton only and some reported crashes.
Have you tried steam remote play? I used it this week for the first time. I don’t consider this “linux gaming”, but even so it could still be an option for some linux desktop users. I’ve never tried running games under a VM, how well does that work these days? I suspect this would work ok with GPU passthrough, but unfortunately consumer GPUs don’t allow GPU resources to be portioned between VM and host so it’s an all or nothing proposition. Regardless, I prefer not not being dependent on windows if possible.
Alfman,
Jumping in, sorry.
The pattern is generally game publishers releasing an “update” that breaks existing games on SteamDeck. Not sure this is done on purpose, but more likely, they just don’t care.
Most egregious ones adding “3rd party launchers” like EA (older Origin) to games which previously did not need them, and many of those launchers are not compatible on the steamdeck without hacks.
kurkosdr,
Fortunately this is no longer true. Yes, they still have massive control on Win32, but they are no longer the sole viable providers of it.
Steam finally cracked that shell, with liberal helping of the Wine community, and of course CodeWeavers.
https://www.protondb.com/ is a testament of how many games are “just working” on a Linux system, some of which even better than Windows (thanks to better backwards API compatibility and containerized installs).
So much so that, SteamDeck quickly became the most popular portable PC, and Microsoft had to scramble into working for alternatives (they first released a “mini” version of their Xbox app on Windows, and are rumored to be working with OEMs for a portable mode).
And, this also led to success of other alternatives, like CrossOver which are available on both Linux and Mac. And it not only plays games, it can also work with productivity applications too.
Is it perfect? No, still a significant portion of games, especially those with kernel rootkits, sorry, online anti-cheat do not work.
And I am not even going into full replacements like ReactOS (to be fair they are relatively more behind).
True, but I would say the number could be closer to 20%. Nevertheless, I had long periods of time where Linux was my primary productivity platform, with Windows relegated to those remaining tasks (gaming, adobe photoshop, and some odd hardware without Linux support).
Desktop Linux IS sold pre-installed on PCs at common retail shops – it’s called Chrome OS. (Android phones/tablets arguably count as well.)
Windows is a trashcan fire, agreed. However, linux is anti-user friendly, no matter what “Linux” people say. I know I’ll get heat for that, (it’s getting better) since a lot of people who use linux read this site. But its hard for people in production environments who have workflows with cad, creative, or photo editing software who reply on moving LOTS and LOTS of files around in folders, rips, and servers to not have the ability to have files, folders, shortcuts and icons on the desktop. (Linux devs are hostile to this). But until Linux can have a proper desktop (Not just a pretty gnome MacOS clone), articles like this will exist, and people will keep using windows and “cleaning it up”. Because Windows, and even MacOS, have desktops that work how business people people expect it to.
Wald3,
Was with you until bolded sentence. I thought you were going to say they would miss their software, which is a valid point. But what do you mean they can’t have files folders shortcuts icons on the desktop? This is a function of the desktop used. KDE for example supports all those things right out of the box and it more or less works like windows, right click, drag and drop and everything.
Give other desktops a try! I think KDE is really good for windows users.
>”… to not have the ability to have files, folders, shortcuts and icons on the desktop …”
I’ve been looking at the pre-installed files, folders, shortcuts and icons on my Mate desktop and wondering if I can just delete them without deleting the underlying data?? Frankly, I kind of wish Mate did NOT allow all this desktop crud.
Fascinating insight into what people at the other end of the computing spectrum have to deal with to get a usable machine.
The closest parallel I can think of is owning an Android phone, but hating Google services.
It’s not all rosy here in the FOSS world either. It’s a mess of extensions to get a decent Gnome desktop, and then those extensions break with every major update. This is the default desktop for every major distribution and has been the case for over a decade now. Maybe Cosmic DE breaks that pattern.
Until then, KDE is the only good desktop left.
unix_joe,
I might be fair to say this is a recent, or at least relatively recent development. Windows generally gave people what they wanted (even when they did not know what they wanted themselves), but rarely things they did not want.
Since Windows 10, as it became free, is also became ad supported. For instance, it insists on installing candy crush game without prompting. It will even reinstall during a regular update. They would have not done such a thing in say Windows XP or even Windows 7/8 days.
(I wonder how it looks today, since they bought ABK, and now own that very game. Could be some sort of self dealing, antitrust issue in there).
Windows 10 is not free. You’ve to pay for license.
Marshal Jim Raynor,
That’s true. People often overlook it because the cost of windows isn’t itemized, but microsoft charges money for all OEM sales. I’d argue this is at least partially responsible for why MS are obsolescing computers that still have life in them – new hardware = selling more windows licenses.
Alfman,
Yes, the make more money from OEM sales (especially during the COVID boom), however Windows is now a footnote in their overall balance sheet:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Investor/earnings/FY-2024-Q2/segment-revenues
They make less money off Windows than their gaming division. Even Bing/Search Advertising is rapidly approaching that. (Look at the detailed lists that popup from that page).
Even though they will probably continue to grow making Windows sales to enterprise customers, for end users they easily make up for it from online services and advertisements bundled in consumer editions.
sukru,
That’s a very incomplete summary, take a look at their annual report from october 2023. It contradicts some of the claims you are making.
https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar23/index.html
Elsewhere the report suggests that some windows revenue like windows 365 may be divided into a non-windows segment, so these numbers may actually under-count how much money MS makes from windows.
I don’t think I was clear enough in the point I wanted to get through: MS can control windows OEM sales through obsolescence, which is exactly what they did for windows 11. That’s not going to be reflected in the annual reports until after windows 10 becomes EOL on october 14, 2025.
I hope we can agree that windows is not free, rather the new model is aligned more with the apple model: Bundle licenses with new hardware, don’t charge updates, drop support to encourage new sales, rinse and repeat.
Alfman,
True, those are the yearly numbers. But that is before they integrated ABK into the fold, and the final quarter shows a different picture.
Granted that was a massive merger (~$70 billion), but I think it is unlikely the trends will turn back after this point. Gaming will continue to grow, while Windows will have relatively diminishing part in overall Microsoft portfolio.
(Again even Bing is catching up with $3+ billion quarterly revenue).
sukru,
The point was that windows isn’t free. Whether we want to project windows sales going up or down is a different topic. Although I do think there will be an increase when windows 10 goes EOL. Time will tell.
Marshal Jim Raynor,
Windows traditionally charged for upgrades. However Windows 8 -> 10, and later Windows 10 -> 11 upgrades were completely free.
Additionally, they now allow downloads are “shareware”:
https://www.microsoft.com/software-download/windows11
It will install without a product key, but nag the user, and some functionality will be disabled.
sukru,
The goalposts moved a little bit between these statements…
One says windows is free, which is not true, and the other says upgrades are free, which is more true, but only sometimes. There are exceptions that affect hundreds of millions of users. MS wants consumers with windows 8-ish era hardware to buy new hardware & windows licenses instead of getting free upgrades. Maybe I’m just being too nit-picky, but I still think the details matter and blanket statements that say windows 10 is free or even upgrades are completely free need to be scrutinized better.
Alfman,
Yes, I think I had to be more specific.
For most home users Windows is now practically free. Previously, if you had an existing computer, you’d pay for an upgrade. That is free. Or you built your own PC and would pay for the license, and once again it is practically shareware (they give the ISO download which can be installed without a key).
Sorry for the confusion.
sukru,
You can take a windows 8 license and convert it to a windows 10 license in the same sense that you can take a dollar and convert it to four quarters, but this does not mean the quarters were free!
Linux is literally free, but windows is not and has never been.
I looked up using windows 11 without activation. It technically violates microsoft’s terms and there’s a lot of nagging to make users pay.
https://www.thewindowsclub.com/disadvantages-and-limitations-of-unactivated-windows
With that said, microsoft has backed away from non-compliance kill switches.
I think this makes sense. Those kill switches promoted the development of activation bypass methods, which made it harder for MS to track unactivated copies, but also could lead to users not even realizing they are running pirated windows software.
What use is the great Nix system I cherish when the applications I need only run on Windows. (non-native virt/wine options are out of question.)
Linux isn’t quite there yet, but it’s very close. I recently built the current MATE packages for Debian 13 and am currently running MATE on Wayland with some personalised tweaks to make it closer to MATE on X11. There are some bugs remaining to be squashed with the mate-menus but I am able to use this as a daily driver and nearly seamless moving between my AMD eGPU and my laptop is awesome. I still move my open application windows from the 2 30″ monitors on my desk to my laptop screen, but I can then run Kanshi and unplug the eGPU and it seamlessly switches to the single screen on the laptop. Plugging into the eGPU results in it auto-detecting and expanding my desktop to the two external monitors. Brilliant.
I find it so funny that in the Ars article “just use linux” was thrown in as a joke and here it is taken seriously….
On a site called “OS News” why would anyone be surprised that the commenters are like, “maybe use a different operating system”?
I think once Wayland matures – and it will, probably soon – all the “desktop Linux is hostile” arguments will evaporate. I can’t wait. It’s going to be a blast!
Thom just keep posting the stories of your real live experience running and adapting Linux to your needs as a non-developer. They are super useful and valuable contribution to the world with real alternative.
It would could fir on 1 page rather than 5 if not for all the ads and other rubbish at that site. Looks like it has been broken up into pages purely for clickbait purposes.
I’ve been running Tiny11 for the past few months, and it basically is Windows as it should be. Don’t forget to copy the Firefox installer to the USB key though: hey ma’ look, no browser! 😉