I’ve long been waiting for a powerful ARM laptop that can run Linux comfortably, and it seems that with Qualcomm’s new Snapdragon X Elite SoC, that’s finally going to happen. We talked earlier about how for once, Qualcomm is taking Linux support for their new laptop-focused processors very seriously, and that promise and associated effort is paying dividend. Tuxedo, a popular Linux OEM from Germany, has announced it’s working on a laptop with the Snapdragon X Elite chip, and they showed off a working prototype at Computex in Taiwan.
We have been working with a first prototype for some time, which will soon be replaced by a second one. The development is still in the alpha stage, as some drivers are still missing, which will hopefully be available with the next two kernel versions.
It is quite conceivable that an ARM notebook from TUXEDO will be under your Christmas tree in 2024. However, there are still too many pieces of the hardware, software and delivery capability puzzle missing to even begin to set a release date. TUXEDO for ARM will come, but we don’t yet know exactly when.
↫ Tuxedo’s website
Their timeline of more Qualcomm drivers making it into the next two kernel versions lines up with Qualcomm’s own timeline, so it seems we’re mostly just waiting for them to finish their Linux drivers and add them to the kernel. This is quite exciting, and a much better option for Linux users than buying a Windows version of an X Elite or Pro laptop and hoping for the best.
I don’t want to be an early adopter…let others weed out the bugs first. But my thought is: finally, it’s about damn time! Alternative platform users have been left in officially unsupported status by chip makers for too long. Things could still go south but it’s the first time in a long time that I’m cautiously optimistic about linux computing on ARM. I really hope this sends some positive changes throughout the industry.
Anyone who gets their hands on one let us know how it goes!
Tried the Pinebook Pro, 14″ Full HD, very nice machine. But the software updates stopped really too soon. Nice for tinkering, but a real world alternative for a business class laptop running under ARM is yet to be seen (beside Microsoft’s Surfaces).
Tuxedo hardware is generally good (mostly http://www.hk.tongfangpc.com brand labeling with Linux customization) yet to me, it’s Qualcomm that doesn’t taste good in that recipe. They’re known in boot locking and NDA enforcing.
Will wait for a truly open RISC-V laptop…
Kochise,
Yeah, this is why I think it’s very important that consumers always have the option to use another unofficial distro. This way we can continue to use & update the OS even after the manufacturers ends official support. Once you give the manufacturers monopoly power over the OS, it’s game over for long term support.
I worry about this too, however if they deliver the goods with an unlocked boot environment and mainline drivers, then hey it is good news in my book. I concede things might not pan out like I hope, but if they are willing to make sorely needed progress for linux on ARM then I say give them a chance to move out from under the problems of the past and give it a good go!
It’s going to be great to have a dedicated option, but I have to wonder if the linux culture is such that the bulk of people will be prepared to pay overs for the OOB Linux, or just make the almost certainly cheaper MS alternatives work.
For me linux is primarily about low cost and doing it for yourself, it’s often sold as open source and freedom, but for the bulk of users I see those issues as secondary. Having an OOB option seems more like corporate linux which is almost a cultural anathema.
So I suspect we’ll hear a lot of positive noise, cheering, whooping, but not so much uptake, I hope I’m wrong.
I don’t think this is weird. There is a vast difference between Linux used by corporations and Linux used by end users. End users have households to run and most of us don’t have 6 figure incomes. So everything is “on a budget”, because a lot needs to be taken care of.
For home use, spending 1K or 2K (most likely with this new “wonder chip”) on a mere laptop, however advanced or nice, is quite the expense. Certainly if there is no business (or educational) use for it. So in theory buying from a Linux vendor is nice, but they definitely are on the expensive side.
A refurb of a business class laptop for 0.5K or less is just more economically sound. Since these machines are older to begin with, most driver kinks have already been solved. Slap on Linux and you are golden.
I know this doesn’t solve the chicken and egg problem of Linux machines being expensive, because they have low volume and people not buying them because they are expensive. When it comes to household finances, my choice is already made. Bang for the buck, because going fancy just takes a too big chunk out of the budget.
Simply compiling for arm doesn’t fix any of the main issues with Linux as a desktop. So yes, the typical cheering from fanboys with no real change in uptake. Plus it’s not like there are no x86 laptops with 9-12 hour battery life. So this is neat if you like Linux, not really news to anyone else.
dark2,
Assuming Qualcom’s support genuinely solve the difficulties that have kept linux distros from easily supporting ARM hardware, then I call that a a win for linux users regardless of what non-linux users think. They’re not the ones this is for, but so what?
Say qualcom were to help microsoft improve x86 emulation on ARM for windows…that would be good for you and other windows users, right? But as a linux user do I care? Not really. x86 emulation is far more important to windows users than linux users.
I am pretty cheap and have not owned a personal machine newer than 5 years old in ages ( I daily drive machines as old as 2008 ). The reason is almost entirely financial.
That said, this laptop has really caught my eye and I could see getting into it. There are no ancient ARM or RISC-V platforms to scavenge and so that is not an option in this ok so older kit is not really competition. And, if I am going to spend the money, I doubt the Microsoft Surface or Dell machines are going to be so much cheaper as to make it worth buying them. We will see though I guess.
That said, once the drivers are in the kernel, I am not sure it matters which one you buy. That is the amazing thing about SoC units like this. The CPU, GPU, NPU, NVMe, Sound, Video, Ethernet, WiFi, and even cellular all come from the single chip. The Snapdragon itself is either going to be supported by Linux drivers or not. If it is supported, it does not matter which laptop that chip is in.
So, I expect the “Windows versions” of the Snapdragon X Elite to run Linux just fine.
Is there any decent X86 JIT to run x86 elf executables on ARM available for Linux?
qemu does pretty well, depending on the use case (not latest fancy x86-64 instructions).
Kochise,
I concur, the cool think about qemu is that it does both process level and whole machine emulation, which is awesome. That said though, you should expect a loss in performance. I don’t feel that linux has the same critical requirement for x86 compatibility as windows thanks to FOSS software bringing us native ports without too much fuss. x86 emulation is far more critical when so much of the software you depend on is proprietary and cannot be rebuilt.
These chips with a beefed up GPU segment could make ideal devices for handheld gaming devices. I wonder if Valve would take something like this seriously for a Steam Deck successor. You would probably see some effort to bolster x86 support in such a case. It would probably take someone like a Valve, who has a business interest, to get it up to snuff. Similar to what we’ve seen with Proton, and HDR support through Gamescope.
On the other hand – this might be the fire under AMD and Intel to finally make their chips more power efficient. The ISA really – seriously – is not the problem there. (More specifically, it’s instruction decode engine is slightly more complex than it needs to be, but could be cleaned up, and it’s not actually a problem – the execution engine is just tuned for power and speed, rather than power efficiency. These are problems that can be fixed – Intel and AMD just need some kind of impetus to do it – and now they’ve got one.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCBrtopAG80
While the ARM laptop hype train is in full swing, I’m staying well clear.
Qualcomm has made it’s money developing chips that after a couple of years they drop support for (Android/mobile). Combined with the reduced lifespan of Linux Kernal LTS versions, I’m worried that this laptop will have kernal support dropped just a few years after release.
It’ll have barely any market share and will be a closed/bespoke architecture so it’s unlikely to have the user base of kernel devs to maintain it.
Even when ARM chips have market share, like my Pi3, which had Massive user base is losing app support left, right and centre barely 5 years after purchase..
Agreed. I remember Linus Torvalds saying that what attracted him to computers was the universal compatibility and uniformity of the x86 ecosystem. I’m not interested in hardware that requires me to search for a specific version of 3rd party software that may or may not be compiled for that arch, or worse yet have to limit my choice of Linux distros based on what supports the CPU architecture. And I’m even less inclined to invest in these alternative architectures when the hardware is even more expensive than mainstream offerings.
Adurbe,
I’ve been staying clear of ARM laptops but mostly because of how difficult it is to get distros with mainline kernels working on them. I get the feeling that there are more of us waiting for ARM in wings but just like me they’re all turned off by the perpetual lack of support. Assuming qualcomm could fix this though, it would be a boon for linux users who like ARM hardware but don’t want to fight it to get linux distros to boot. I don’t know that qualcomm are actually going to hit the mark, but still giving them the benefit of doubt this may be the best news we’ve had in years.
On android, it absolutely sucks to be tethered to the vendor’s kernel and I’m sure that’s just about everyone’s experience with ARM. We face the end of life issues and all that garbage.
It remains to be seen if Qualcomm will actually deliver, but assuming Qualcomm’s drivers actually do get mainlined, it gives me a lot more confidence than I’ve ever had with android/mobile support. Historically mainline drivers can and typically do remain in mainline long after the manufacturers cease their own support. This has been a fantastic outcome for linux users on x86 because even when manufactures drop off the face of the earth or otherwise stop supporting their hardware, the FOSS drivers will continue to exist and are generally mature requiring very little maintenance. For these reasons it’s not atypical for linux to beat windows at long term hardware support.
Nothing about this is technically unique to x86. The key to bringing ARM to the same level is a standardized boot environment and mainline device drivers.
That’s a concern, but it’s all business organization concerns, not technical ones, and we’ll see which way they go. But they are sending up all the right signals, that they intend to treat this platform like a long term generalized computing platform in a way they have never treated their “consumer” Android SoCs. I’m hopeful they’ll actually maintain it. And I’m hopeful this is going to get AMD and Intel to compete on efficiency more urgently.
Beyond just offering a different vendor for the CPU after decades of duopoly, this also offers a 4th real GPU vendor. This is an EXCITING time in PC computing, in a way that feels almost like the old days in the last millennia (the lat 1900s), when there were a lot more options. Even in the software space – alternative OS platforms have never been more viable. It’s exciting!
One thing I’d personally REALLY love to see, is an AMD hybrid platform. Like, give me efficient (and still powerful/fast) ARM cores, AND x64 cores. I want heterogeneous computing! Give me both!
Flashbacks to the Quadra PDS card on my Apple 6100. It was so bizzare… Careful what you wish for!!