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*snort* judging by the quality of linux flash, don't get your hopes up.

gnash anyone?

If you are wanting to run a Linux desktop, then run it on Linux desktop hardware.

There are people who are willing to sell you such:

http://www.system76.com/
http://www.zareason.com/shop/home.php
http://www.linuxcertified.com/linux_laptops.html

Apparently, buried deep somewhere within their site, you can also buy such hardware from Dell.

You will have no troubles at all with drivers then ... less trouble in fact than with drivers for Vista for some hardware that comes with a "designed for Windows" sticker on it.

Just as you should run Vista only on hardware "certified for Vista", and you would run OSX only on a Mac ... the equivalent consideration should also apply to Linux.

If for some unfatomable reason you are constrained to run your desktop Linux on desktop hardware that was not necessarily originally designed to run Linux, then, unlike Vista or OSX, in many cases this is possible but it pays to check it out first:

http://www.linuxcompatible.org/
http://www.linuxcompatible.org/compatibility.html

Edited 2008-04-16 04:11 UTC

If for some unfatomable reason you are constrained to run your desktop Linux on desktop hardware that was not necessarily originally designed to run Linux, then, unlike Vista or OSX, in many cases this is possible but it pays to check it out first:

Sorry but you lose. I am running an Intel Centrino based system, probably one of the most supported laptop hardware configurations. In fact most "linux compatible" laptops seem to be Centrino based, just check your own links. The simple fact is the wifi light just does not work with the iwlwifi drivers, the driver developers at Intel even know this. The same goes for Intel's framebuffer driver. It has issues with suspend. Then there are userspace issues that prevent me from using XVideo extensions with Compiz, which also has trouble with 3D programs. I'm glad that fixes for all these things are in the works but I'm getting pretty anxious now considering my laptop is now over a year old. Despite these drawbacks I would never go back to Windows and I'm sure I would have even more issues if I did.

Now back to my point. The Linux desktop is being ignored for the most part by Linux's biggest sponsors. The simple fact is Linux is much further along on the server side than it is on the desktop side and I think it's about time things evened up.

It is very likely just PR ... to use a polite term. An attempt to get "soundbites" or "a meme" into the conciousness of the general public who aren't paying much attention. There are wealthy parties who have a strong vested interest in pushing the false notion that Linux has trouble with drivers, and that it is too hard to get it working.

To use a more impolite term, without swearing or cussing, one would probably choose the word "astroturfing".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing

Edited 2008-04-16 04:19 UTC

Yes, I'd come to the same conclusion... like with all that manufactured controversy over GPLv3 a few months back that was supposed to be "tearing the free software community apart." Gimme a break.

Note to the PR flacks in the audience... You're wasting your lives.

You might want to inform yourself before calling Joe Barr of Linux.com an astroturfer ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Barr

No , the problem is a real one at the Linux foundation.

Where as GNU/Linux offer a real and working solution on the desktop very few of the player in the Linux foundation are Leader or pushing for GNU/Linux on the desktop , even clearly the opposite.

Take your previous desktop vendor listing , none of them are part of the Linux foundation , why ? Cost of entry and Linux foundation lack of desire to have them included because of what they do are the main reasons.

The Linux Foundation does not use it's financial ressource and clout to make a sensible desktop strategy.

Just list the member list and you will see that it's mostly hardware vendor that sale workstation and servers solution. Note : Adobe is in there , if there is one company that windows switching to GNU/Linux people want there desktop product on GNU/Linux it's Adobe.

Is point is simple to summarize , he looked at the conference subjects and can see that desktop is not being discuss and a priority on the agenda, he is about 10 years too late , but the community as always ignored the Linux foundation as long as they pay for the Kernel development and contribute in some way.

He is clearly not saying that GNU/linux is not ready for the dekstop.

There was a representative of at least ZaReason attending the Linux Collaboration Summit, as well as representatives from local IT companies selling Linux products such as http://www.iycc.biz/



Then he might have missed that there were two days of Desktop Architects Meeting, bringing together representatives of free software projects like GNOME and KDE as well as people from ISVs and OEMs.

It allowed us to get up to date on what others are currently working on, identify areas where we can improve sharing of technology, exchanging contacts for better coordination or work, etc.

I agree with Joe Barr that not allowing media people looks a bit weird, but unfortunately it is not unheard of that journalists report things out of context or using skewed interpretations to generate reader interests.
While Joe Barr would likely not do this, the pure chance of something like this to happen would restrict the quality of information during the meetings as attendees would be more cautious to address problems, etc

That's the membership :

http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Members

Where do you see ZaReason and iycc membership in there ? Attending a summit is not the same thing as being a contributive recognized and paying member. Otherwise Microsoft would be a member too as they tend to attend every GNU/Linux event ...

"Then he might have ... people from ISVs and OEMs."

No , he talked about the summit members agenda available to everyone :

https://www.linux-foundation.org/events/collaboration/program

He also went into detail between the disconnection between what was discussed and what's needed. Sure you talked about/worked on some of it , the developer always do and there is nobody who as a problem with developers.

The problem is with say example Dell who will put immense ressource on this :

http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2007/12/04/36984.aspx

But not the same on this for normal desktop user's :

http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/tags/Linux/default.aspx

And when you go looking on Dell.com

http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/notebooks?c=us&a...

the laptop operating system choice is from the pull down menu :

Vista
XP

You have to know to go down and select the Open-Source PCs to be offered some models.

It's the same for all of the recognised members.

- Truth be told what is called *desktop* by the Linux foundation and it's members is really workstation.

Edited 2008-04-16 20:42 UTC

Really? So if I install a Linux distro tomorrow (say Ubuntu), what happens if I plug in a Zune or the new HP photosmart printer I just bought? Can I go to Netflix and watch movies online, and use Linux to stream videos to my Xbox 360 as I can with Windows?

And the most important question is, is all this stuff gonna just work out of the box, or will I have to spend weeks pouring through forums, struggling just to get the same level of functionality that I already have?

Note: I haven't tried Linux in awhile, so I don't know its current state. But a recent post I read on here about what you had to do to get a Windows Mobile 6 device to work (outside of Mandrive) didn't leave me much hope that things had changed very much since I last tried it (around early 2006).

zune, hard to tell. but the hp may actually work.

i have been using a fairly recent hp multifunction network printer for 6 months or so without issue (i have to access the scanner via a built in web interface, but i dont need that so often that it bothers me).

hp is actually very cooperative with cups these days...

netflix i cant comment on, but the xbox360 is probably in the same area as zune. your more likely to get a apple product to work nicely alongside linux, then you are a microsoft one these days.

Edited 2008-04-16 08:07 UTC

That some specific proprietary product or service only works with the platform that it was designed to lock users into isn't really a technical failing of other platforms. That your Zune (a brand owned by Microsoft) may not work with linux would be about as remarkable as the fact that you can't play PS3 games in your Xbox360. That this kind of incompatibility is systematically maintained when standard protocols would do just fine is part of what I mean when I say that the barriers to linux adoption are political not technical.

Remember, just because something is for sale doesn't mean you need to have it. There are plenty of products out there that work with linux out of the box. Just do a little research before you buy.

Yeah, I see what you mean when you say political. But I would say the issue has to do more with compatibility than politics. Of course, those two probably go hand-in-hand when you examine the situation closely, but saying 'political' is a bit misleading, IMHO. Because part of the reason why people won't switch is because sh*t they own (or want) doesn't work with it. That's compatibility.

You can talk all you want about the evils of proprietary hardware/software, but at the end of the day, if some teeny bopper can't use the latest 'sexy' peripheral of the month, it's game over.

Really? So if I install a Linux distro tomorrow (say Ubuntu), what happens if I plug in a Zune or the new HP photosmart printer I just bought? Can I go to Netflix and watch movies online, and use Linux to stream videos to my Xbox 360 as I can with Windows?

And the most important question is, is all this stuff gonna just work out of the box, or will I have to spend weeks pouring through forums, struggling just to get the same level of functionality that I already have?

Note: I haven't tried Linux in awhile, so I don't know its current state. But a recent post I read on here about what you had to do to get a Windows Mobile 6 device to work (outside of Mandrive) didn't leave me much hope that things had changed very much since I last tried it (around early 2006). "

Much of Microsoft's gear is deliberately designed to not work with Linux ... or indeed work with open unencumbered systems in general.

It is Microsoft's aim to lock you in to Microsoft's products. If you buy in to that ... then expect to be paying premium price for all your IT stuff in perpetuity.

Having said that ... to stream music to your Microsoft Xbox 360, "All you need is a media server that the Xbox thinks is a Media Center PC."
http://www.livingdigitally.net/2005/12/stream_music_to.html

Twonky Music will do this for you.
http://www.twonkyvision.de/Products/TwonkyMedia/index.html

It can be run from a Linux-based home server if you like:
http://wl500g.info/showthread.php?t=6066

A Zune? Heaven help you ... what would you possibly want a Zune for? Yuk. People can't help you if you buy rubbish stuff.

HP photosmart printer? ... no problem. HP printers have excellent support for Linux. Good choice there.

http://hplip.sourceforge.net/

Windows Mobile 6? Did you read the first word? Sheesh! get a Linux PDA if you want it to work with everything else.

You are looking at this question from the wrong way around. You should be asking yourself ... does this product work with everything, or just Windows?

Your Zune, Xbox 360 and Windows Mobile device are deliberately designed to work only with Windows, in an attempt to make sure you will only buy Windows for your computers.

Your HP Photosmart printer, on the other hand, is designed to not lock you in at all ... it is designed to let YOU choose if you want to run Windows, OSX or Linux with it.

With the Xbox ... some people have done a lot of work to try to make it that you can use it with some non-Windows products. Lucky for you ... hard work for them.

So ... get a Playstation, not an Xbox. Stick with your HP printer. get a Linux-based PDA, designed to work with anything. Get a platform-agnostic portable media player, not a Zune. This site may help:
http://tuxmobil.org/portable_players.html
http://tuxmobil.org/pda_linux.html
http://tuxmobil.org/mylaptops.html

Or better yet ... get a portable media player that runs Linux itself:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/21/iriver_pmp_ship/
http://www.osnews.com/story/12656

If you buy Windows-only stuff, don't expect it to work with Linux.

If you buy gear that works with Linux ... it will work with everything else as well. The choice of what else you get is then up to you.

If you buy stuff that works with Linux ... it will work out of the box. This is not the case with stuff that works only with Windows ... you will have to feed Windows with the CD that came with your gear. If you lose that CD ... and then later you have to re-install Windows ... then your stuff won't work any longer with anything at all.

Edited 2008-04-16 10:19 UTC

This is the type of attitude that immediately turns Linux potentials off Linux and keeps them on Windows. Telling them to shove off and stop buying crappy gear isn't going to win them over. Getting that gear supported on the Linux platform will.

With charming attitudes like this, Linux will only continue to dwindle in the user stakes. Whilst the link below cannot ever be 100% accurate, let's take it at face value (Linux lovers really do like the fact that they can always hide behind the argument "no survey is accurate, it's all lies!!"):

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=10

Linux is dwindling badly (0.61%), MacIntel is going upwards very nicely (+ 4%). Microsoft Windows is losing a bit (to OS X). Ever been to an AppleStore recently - they are *packed*. Never used to be like that. Compare it to the previous year's data:

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=10&qpmr=24&am...

Linux went up from 0.46% to 0.62% but Apple went from 2.76% to the +4% in that year. I know who made the larger jump :-)

Same trend for 2006...

Sorry, but until Linux becomes more desktop friendly, and hardware friendly, it simply will not take off. Linux has some excellent potential, but it has a wide range of areas that are severely problematic. The attitude that many Linux fanboys have is not helping.

Try not to take this as a personal attack, it's not meant to be. I'm simply pointing out what many rose tinted glass Linux loversâ„¢ refuse to acknowledge. A few years ago it was RTFM, now it's RTFM and hardware belittlement.

We have to be realistic here (sorry, I don't believe in Penguinistic fairytales) - it's a Windows world. Whatever the merits of Microsoft Windows (and yes, it blows), for many people, it's the only choice. Go to a local supermarket and start asking people if they have heard of Linux - I suspect you might get a 2-3% hit. Ask them how many have heard of Mac OS - much higher. Windows, even higher. Then ask them what they've actually used. You'll find that Windows will go even higher, Mac OS will probably stay the same, and Linux will plummet even further. The average person is not technically savvy, nor do they want to be. They want it to work, first time out, with minimum input from them. Spending days, weeks or months trying to make something work on Linux is not fun. Even worse, keeping it working is not necessarily easy.

I remember with Libranet - kscd broke, don't ask me why or how. One day it worked, the next it wouldn't play CDs. No amount of coaxing or fixing would fix it. Other applications played the Audio CD ok. Weird? removing the application (apt-get remove --purge) did NOT fix the issue. Upgrading to several versions didn't either. I could NOT get Evolution exchange plugin to work at all, despite spending several months trying to get it to work. I'd install it, but Evolution would simply not show it as an option. Of course, an install of Ubuntu on a mates PC worked immediately. I recently played with an Ubuntu live CD - I'm on 56k dialup still, do you think I could get it to work? Nope. Looking at the help gave next to no information. Reading the Ubuntu website the next day @ work gave only a bit more information, but the gist of the help was "bugger off and get a broadband connection". Great eh?

Little things like the above do not make Linux a joy to use from a desktop perspective. I don't want to go out and duplicate purchases just so that they will work with Linux. I want to take what I already own, and have it work on Linux. Without fuss. I know that a lot of this really isn't Linux's fault, it's the hardware developers etc. Sadly, in this world, even if we are right, we can't make the hardware developers do what we want - it's their product. Sure, you can boycott their product, but in many instances you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Linux can be made into a workable, usable desktop, I know, cos I used it as my sole desktop for nearly 5 years (no dual boot either, I solely had Debian Woody, and then Libranet on my hard drive). It takes a fair amount of technical savvy on the users part, and a fair amount of time to keep working. Others in the household would say this to me on a constant basis and I would ignore them. I didn't realise how much time I was wasting until I went back to Windows XP (due to using Photoshop CS2).

Dave

Edited 2008-04-16 13:27 UTC

I'm sorry Dave, but what you ask is simply impossible.

You can only hold Linux to the same standard as any other OS.

That standard is this: If you want to run Linux, buy a machine which is supposed to be able to run it. If you aren't capable of installing the OS ... buy a machine with your OS pre-installed. When you buy hardware make sure it will work with your computer.

The fact that Linux does way, way better than this standard is a credit to Linux, not a point against it.

The fact that it is unavailable to get Linux on the same terms as you are able get other desktop OSes, which I have just outlined, is the entire reason why the Linux OS has a low adoption rate on the desktop.

The fact that hardware manufactuers do not see a big market, and hence have an excuse to not support Linux, is not a failing of Linux and it is an utter waste of Linux developers time & resources to chase around trying to support hardware that the manufacturer doesn't want supported.

Wasting time on drivers for obscure and closed hardware is playing into the hands of proprietary vendors. They can get their fanboys to come on to forums such as this, and loudly point out that "Linux doesn't support model xyz" ... knowing full well all the time that the real story is that the manufacturer of model xyz doesn't support Linux.

There is an eternal catch 22 here that Linux will forever remain stuck in as long as it is competing against vested interests who have control of the market.

The only way out of the catch 22 is to loudly proclaim "laptop model pqr fully supports Linux" ... and model j21b, and model wrt5 and so one. Give out "works with Linux" stickers ... have a loud and flashy "works with Linux" website ... and offer free CDs in the mail for anyone who posts in a photocopy of a purchase receipt for one of those models. Offer for a small fee to install Linux and fill out "Windows refund" forms for anyone who brings in an unopened newly bought PC or laptop of a supported model.

Linux is in sore need of marketing ... it isn't in sore need of trying to work with hardware not made to work with it.

No , because there is never a 100% rate of conversion and those who say the attitude of someone is turning people off are delusionnal and crazy.

Here is why :

1) Most people who fail don't see any expert before installing GNU/Linux. They read it's easy and they conclude well this idiot is doing it , I should be able to do it too. They fail , they conclude it's not easy and it's the fault of GNU/Linux.

When the fact is people who say it's easy have been installing OS for almost 2 to 3 decades. Or have been shown by someone else.

2)when people try GNU/Linux with the help of an expert who guide them they at 90% stay on GNU/Linux because they end up with a working solution the other 10% just prefer windows way of doing thing , witch is fine.

Note the above don't mean that they exclusively use GNU/Linux or that it's there main work / home system.

3) Some people are just unrealistic and are looking to fail and are looking for an excuse to explain why they themself failed as to not put the blame on themself.

4) There are Hardware maker who break compatiility with GNU/Linux intentionnaly.

5) how can my attitude be blamed for a GNU/Linux distribution , that I have never used or seen before , failing to support a language that I don't even know on a system that is so new I don't even know it existed ?

Edited 2008-04-16 18:52 UTC

It's not gonna work properly. If all your failure commented here over the years are any indicator , your definately and clearly part of the problem why you don't have a working desktop solution. Or your lying.

That means remove yourself as a DIY from the equation and go search for a turn key solution made for you by someone else.



1. It's going to fail if you did the install. (A)
2. Why are you planning to fail from the start by using a Music player that do not support GNU/Linux ?
3. People are using Zune on GNU/Linux and they even installed GNU/Linux as the OS for the Zune ...

(A) There are people willing to install GNU/Linux for gratis or for a fee who will make it work.



Off course you did not make sure that it was a compatible model before buying it ... Your also married to that printer.

Seriously that one ties in with the article because HP is a Linux Foundtaion member , they are screwing GNU/Linux by releasing desktop models without GNU/Linux support , even do when most of the time driver exist.



Do netflix support browser standards ? or only IE ?



Yes.



Yes , if you buy a box and not try and do it yourself.



No shit , you think anyone with half a brain cell could not figure that out from your many comments ?



Since when does Windows mobile 6 support GNU/linux OOTB ?

Your comment is similar to someone who as a VHS asking if Blue-ray DVD will work with them and blame Blue-Ray for the failure ... Or someone who as a Mazda and goes into Ford and ask them to fix a specific Mazda recall and blame Ford when they don't have a clue what it's about and refuse to fix it for gratis ...

You already established that your hardware don't work with GNU/Linux when you do the work. It's time to seek OOTB solution from GNU/linux vendors , or service people who can do it.

It's not an insult , it's called reality , I am sure that your good at something , but clearly failling to install Ubuntu and not figuring out a solution , is a clear indicator , your unable to do it on your own.

Edited 2008-04-16 18:23 UTC

Good filesystem implementations are useful to desktop and server users alike. Indeed, just about everything that is good for servers is ultimately good for the desktop. Consider how *nixes have always been multi-user, multi-tasking, remotely administratable operating systems. These features have been serving linux desktop users since day one. How long has it taken systems that were originally conceived only as single-user desktop OSs to incorporate these features?

Remember also that linux is only the kernel. It does the same job on a server that it would on a desktop. It is mostly the 3rd party programs such as xorg, kde, and firefox that differentiate a server from a desktop, and these projects are getting plenty of attention.


I would be genuinly interested in knowing what folks think the kernel is actually laking for desktop users at this point.

indeed, these days its more about xfree and open 3D drivers then what the kernel does when it comes to the desktop.

ok, so there may be some sound related stuff, but me not being a audiophile results in the current status being good enough for daily use.

it also helps to pick a desktop friendly distro. currently im using one thats closer to slackware then ubuntu so i cant really comment there...

Edited 2008-04-16 08:10 UTC