Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 17th Feb 2006 20:15 UTC
KDE Developers on the projects expected to make up the next major version of the K Desktop Environment want KDE 4 to offer features and software interaction beyond what is available now, and better, easier access for users to their files and information. Among the ideas are universally available personal information and a desktop that is tailored for and responds to the things users do most. Ian Geiser, a KDE developer and official US representative for the KDE project, says KDE 4 will most likely be released in late 2006, though internal debate could push the release back to early 2007.
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KDE & Hardware
by agentj on Fri 17th Feb 2006 20:40 UTC
agentj
Member since:
2005-08-19

I'm waiting for full hardware configuration dialogs in KDE, like MS did it in Windows. I won't have to mess up with YaST running thousand of shell scripts to install e.g. PCMCIA video card.
KDE also has pretty easy API. GTK compared to Qt is nightmare: you're forced to write object code in the language that doesn't support object programming (stupid passing of this pointer, no easy type casting of classes, ...).

Reply Score: 3

RE: KDE & Hardware
by Mitarai on Fri 17th Feb 2006 20:52 UTC in reply to "KDE & Hardware"
Mitarai Member since:
2005-07-28

Nice first post.

I find amazing how being this a KDE threat and a KDE user bring the GTK inflamatory comments, aren't you happy enought with KDE/Qt to ignore GTK? I guess you don't.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: KDE & Hardware
by agentj on Fri 17th Feb 2006 21:01 UTC in reply to "RE: KDE & Hardware"
agentj Member since:
2005-08-19

Many good programs use GTK. It's just my personal opinion about Gtk. I've tried programming with Gtk, but I found Qt easier and I'm staying with it.

Reply Score: 4

RE: KDE & Hardware
by Daniel Borgmann on Fri 17th Feb 2006 21:29 UTC in reply to "KDE & Hardware"
Daniel Borgmann Member since:
2005-07-08

GTK compared to Qt is nightmare: you're forced to write object code in the language that doesn't support object programming

No you are not, you have the choice between many fine languages actually, many of which are well suited for object oriented programming. I really thought we would be over this by now.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: KDE & Hardware
by segedunum on Sat 18th Feb 2006 16:01 UTC in reply to "RE: KDE & Hardware"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

No you are not, you have the choice between many fine languages actually

That's peripheral to the actual problem. The underlying framework and code is just not object oriented. It pretends to be.

This means that you have to write some code, and then in order for it to be anywhere usable for a programmer and contributors, you then have create a binding over the top. This is two or three times the maintenance and effort.

Reply Score: 1

KDE rocks!
by OMRebel on Fri 17th Feb 2006 20:58 UTC
OMRebel
Member since:
2005-11-14

The KDE team has been doing awesome work. I'm really looking forward to seeing if they are going to be able to deliver everything that they are wanting in KDE 4.0. I think this will always benefit other DE's (Gnome) in the long run, as it will challenge them to keep up and follow suit. Solid is going to be really nice, and the eye candy that Plasma should deliver is gonna make it a really tight looking and polished desktop.

Edited 2006-02-17 20:59

Reply Score: 2

v Kde innovations
by pierino on Fri 17th Feb 2006 21:01 UTC
KDE And Art
by ma_d on Fri 17th Feb 2006 21:26 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

I'm continually amazed by the artwork and visual design in KDE, and its websites of late. I think KDE may have the strongest artistic community of _any_ software project, open, closed, research, commercial, free.

The websites for the KDE4 information is a good example of how the artists must actually be involved in the devel: There's not one ugly website presenting all the ideas; it's split up by software module. And each website is layed out in a simple manner, is good at the one thing it does, and it looks nice while not being difficult to read/use.

I hope this artwork is indicative of the overall push for quality in KDE4. I honestly think there was some real bloat in kde3 (stuff like arts became almost completely unecessary, some programs have so many toolbars you lose all meaning of a toolbar). I hope so see something clearly more modular in kde4.

Reply Score: 5

RE: KDE And Art
by sappyvcv on Sun 19th Feb 2006 18:56 UTC in reply to "KDE And Art"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Not to start a flamewar, but I don't think KDE has the best artwork by far.

One good example, I think, is Mozilla/Firefox. Very nicely done sites.

Reply Score: 1

RE: KDE And Art
by CaptainFlint on Mon 20th Feb 2006 01:40 UTC in reply to "KDE And Art"
CaptainFlint Member since:
2006-01-24

I am in love with what kde3.5 has come up with much less what 4 will bring. But I have to disagree about the most artistic bit. Integrating graphics and artwork as a part of user experience that us both different and intuitive I think enlightenment has always been on the forefront. I use e17 at home regluarly along with kde3.5. I love them both but I find e17 a lot more asthetically pleasing and while it is not complete yet I find it very intuitive to use. Well there go my 2 cents.

Reply Score: 1

tailoring
by MamiyaOtaru on Fri 17th Feb 2006 21:49 UTC
MamiyaOtaru
Member since:
2005-11-11

a desktop that is tailored for and responds to the things users do most.

That sounds nice, but how many people like the adaptive start menu in XP? (that question is not entirely rhetorical. I hated it, but I can't speak for everyone) It would irk me somewhat if I wanted to do something and found, since I hadn't done it for a month or so, that I had to dig through an extra layer. I'll need to see what they mean in more detail before deciding if I like that idea.

There are a lot of big ideas going into this, I look forward to seeing how it all shakes out. In the meantime, I guess that leaves me a lot of time to settle in with KDE 3.5 ;)

Reply Score: 3

RE: tailoring
by suslik on Fri 17th Feb 2006 22:15 UTC in reply to "tailoring"
suslik Member since:
2005-07-27

The "adaptation" (timelining, guessing on the part of computer) actually is opposite to what Windows Start menu does.

As discussed, it resembles more of the "Meta bar" you get on the left side of explorer when you browse files. So, the talk is more adout "adding" suggestions, rather than "hiding" "useless" functions.

Reply Score: 3

Hal device manager
by SlackerJack on Fri 17th Feb 2006 22:01 UTC
SlackerJack
Member since:
2005-11-12

Any of you ever heard of hal-device-manager?, it gives tons more detailed hardware info than Windows device manager. Comes with most distros now since HAL does to.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Hal device manager
by superstoned on Sat 18th Feb 2006 13:14 UTC in reply to "Hal device manager"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

in linux, HAL might be the backend Solid uses most. but on BSD and windows, there might be other things needed... also, HAL won't stay binary/API compattible throughout the whole KDE 4 series, and as KDE is committed to compatibility (any kde 3.0 app should work on 3.5) they can't use HAL directly.

so solid (like KDEMM) is there to ensure cross-platform and backwards compatibility. other desktop environments that don't care about these things might use/depend on gstreamer and HAL directly, but i think that's a bad choice.

Reply Score: 5

Able to deliver
by Thom_Holwerda on Fri 17th Feb 2006 22:29 UTC
Thom_Holwerda
Member since:
2005-06-29

I'm continueing to be impressed by KDE4 and its sub-projects. Assuming they will be able to deliver what they're promising us (always the big 'if'), then they've got something pretty big on their hands. It looks as if the KDE4 has been planned very carefully, taking both the developer's and user's side into account. It also seems as if they are taking the usual criticism on the current KDE releases into account.

Let's just hope they'll be able to deliver.

Reply Score: 5

KDE: Platform, not Product.
by suslik on Fri 17th Feb 2006 22:30 UTC
suslik
Member since:
2005-07-27

What I like the most about the article is that it conveys the idea that KDE has outgrown the boundaries of a "product" and stepped into the "platform" era.

One glance at kde-apps.org and anyone gets a point - KDE community is vastly more than just what is shipped as the base KDE install. Stuff like Kompose, Basket, YaKuake, StyleClock, Wireless Assistant and others are prime examples of healthy development ecosystem.

I am glad we outgrew the myopic "lets make one product that fits all" stage.

Reply Score: 5

Tenor and XGL
by Guppetto on Fri 17th Feb 2006 22:31 UTC
Guppetto
Member since:
2005-07-06

They left out Tenor which is the real show stoper to me, becuase you can write a much more informative application when you have a boat load of neat meta-data to play with at all times.

Zach Rushin is also likely going to integrate some of that Compiz code into the next kwin window manager to go along with XGL. KDE 4 is already slated to use a plug-in and layered architechture, so the compiz plugin structure should fit quite nicely in KDE 4.

People should also drop the 2006 date, because we know that with all these projects that have to somehow work together we won't get a wiff of KDE 4 until 2007.

Reply Score: 5

I wish I was in 2007
by werfu on Fri 17th Feb 2006 22:50 UTC
werfu
Member since:
2005-09-15

I wish I was already in 2007 to have KDE4 on my desktop... (Drooling thinking about it)

Reply Score: 2

KDE-free KDE?
by CaptainPinko on Sat 18th Feb 2006 00:00 UTC
CaptainPinko
Member since:
2005-07-21

A while ago I heard about a proposal that would make it trivial to compile KDE apps without KDE, i.e. using just Qt. The idea was to link to a wrapper and that wrapper would use KDE if it was there otherwise just link to Qt. I really wish I could use my favourite KDE apps when I was working on Windows at home or school. Especially Umbrello as I'm particularly attached to that one. Also, I'd hope that I could use their Gimp-replacement on Windows when it's ready.

Any word on that?

Reply Score: 3

RE: KDE-free KDE?
by jbauer on Sat 18th Feb 2006 00:28 UTC in reply to "KDE-free KDE?"
jbauer Member since:
2005-07-06

I don't know, but now that Qt4 is GPL on Windows, kdelibs will also be ported and with it the possibility of a Windows port of KDE applications will be opened, so maybe that wrapper would not be useful anyway anymore.

I'd personally like to see AmaroK running on Windows, it's my favourite audio player ever and hopefully someday'll be ported.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: KDE-free KDE?
by werfu on Sat 18th Feb 2006 03:15 UTC in reply to "RE: KDE-free KDE?"
werfu Member since:
2005-09-15

"I'd personally like to see AmaroK running on Windows, it's my favourite audio player ever and hopefully someday'll be ported." - Same thing here, it's simply the best music player ever.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: KDE-free KDE?
by raver31 on Sat 18th Feb 2006 16:35 UTC in reply to "RE: KDE-free KDE?"
raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

No, Amarok should never be ported to Windows. Amarok should be just another one of the reasons to switch.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: KDE-free KDE?
by cerbie on Sat 18th Feb 2006 17:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: KDE-free KDE?"
cerbie Member since:
2006-01-02

Elitism won't help.

Without Firefox, Thunderbird, OOo, GAIM, PAN, 7-zip, etc., how many people would think about trying a Linux or a BSD; must less swap over to it entirely? More FOSS apps in Windows = more people having an easier time using Linux distros, and thinking more heavily about ditching Windows. If they can't use the other thing, but can use Windows, they'll stick. When they can pop in, use the same apps (and notice they run better), and get some of their work done right away, learning from there, it will be a much more enjoyable experience.

Remember, there are still a ton of people that don't realize that a lot of FOSS software is superior to it's non-free competition (PAN being a prime example, K3b another). In this case, it's not knowing that there is a media library based, bloated (er, feature-rich), music player out there other than iTunes (technically, MMJ and WMP are, but they're laughable compared to Amarok--and I don't even like Amarok).

So, you get them hooked, then they notice, "Oh, it's really made for some thing called KDE on Linux? I can try this CD out that is a full system without installing it?" (the user then downloads some random live CD and tries it out, finding several of their apps there ready to roll, and can then start checking out replacements for others)

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: KDE-free KDE?
by raver31 on Sat 18th Feb 2006 18:50 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: KDE-free KDE?"
raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

well, when it is put like that.... I agree

get them addicted first, then nab them !

yeah, port Amarok to Windows already ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: KDE-free KDE?
by jbauer on Sat 18th Feb 2006 23:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: KDE-free KDE?"
jbauer Member since:
2005-07-06

"No, Amarok should never be ported to Windows. Amarok should be just another one of the reasons to switch."

Why? If there are no developers willing to do the port, that's fine, I wouldn't like Amarok's development to suffer because of a Windows port. But if that's not the reason, and given the opportunity to run the same programs on both platforms, I think users should have the choice and use whatever they like best. If you really think Linux is a better OS than Windows, then I'm sure you've nothing to fear.

Reply Score: 1

This will get me
by John Nilsson on Sat 18th Feb 2006 02:21 UTC
John Nilsson
Member since:
2005-07-06

I say it again. KDE4 might make me switch from Gnome.

Ever since I decided on Gnome I've been whishing for the Gnome community to take such a broad picture redesign of the the whole system.

Sure there's work with integrating Gaim with Evolution and that kind of stuff. It's just seems like the wrong way to go about it. The bigger picture is missing.

Seth Nickel had something gooing with Gnome Storage (http://www.gnome.org/~seth/storage/) but that project kind of died out it seems.

My new hope lies with Frege (http://www.dur.ac.uk/j.r.c.geldart/projects/frege/) but I fear that project might have a to high barrier to entry to take of.

For some reason the desing philosophy on model/view seperation has been lost along the way. Why doesn't all the music "managers"/"players" share the same data model f.ex.? And why on earth do they all insist on integerating player interface, player engine, file manager and playlist manager into the same app?!?

KDE4 might be the one... (am I putting too much hope into this? hmm...)

Reply Score: 5

KDE 4 might get me using a fully fledged DE
by cerbie on Sat 18th Feb 2006 07:30 UTC
cerbie
Member since:
2006-01-02

I think you are putting too much hope into this, but not by much more than thinking it will all just work very soon. As long as the KDE folks try for less vertical integration than Gnome, they aught to do well.

Ideally, the desktop environment will have some things that remain the same for navigation, but much that changes based on what the user is doing (we will whine about how its not customizable enough, but 99% of users will still benefit from so-so defaults ;) ), in much the way that good suite software does, but encompassing the whole desktop.

The more parts are allowed to tie in together, but not forced to be together, the more possible this will become. As it becomes possible without hair-pulling work, more developers will use it. Also, there's that some of us want the have features of KDE, but not have KDE in our way.

I'll be amazed if they make it with KDE 4 by 2007, but I think they are going in the right direction. Personally, I don't like any DE out there right now, because they mimic the kind of desktop we've been given for years, rather than trying to make one that works for us.

Reply Score: 1

superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

"Personally, I don't like any DE out there right now, because they mimic the kind of desktop we've been given for years, rather than trying to make one that works for us."

tough i like their current offering, i can really feel you on this one. i really hope KDE 4 will bring us something fresh (and i think it can).

the gnome's are catching up on KDE (and in some areas getting ahead), at least that's what i feel after reading the "what's new in Gnome 2.14" -> they finally implemented several imho crucial things that where in KDE for at least a year, and they even added a few things not in KDE yet, like the beagle integration (tough a kat or beagle KIO slave will get this kind-of in KDE easilly). and of course they do it all with their style - simple, usable, nicely looking.

tough i rather have a KIOSK like tool a year earlier than having it a bit more usable, its cool they are able to follow. but i really wonder how they will chalenge the KDE 4 release - some of the things coming to KDE 4 are getting up steam in gnome, already - i expect a lot from cairo, for example. so KDE 4 might not be as much ahead as i expect, now... on the other hand, Tenor will be something NO OTHER DESKTOP ENVIRONMENT, including winblows and mac, will have... and i really hope the app developers can put it to good use in KDE 4.

Reply Score: 1

cerbie Member since:
2006-01-02

Agreed. Gnome isn't doing nothing. One thing, in fact somewhat Gnome related, that I've read about KDE 4 was actually talk about ditching a few MM tools, including aRts, in favor of just going with Gstreamer.

What they end up with we'll just have to wait for, but it does show, as do some steps Gnome is taking, that both Gnome and KDE leadership are realizing that they have been, for a good while, duplicating work, when it's not truly needed; instead, just making things work well. The Gnome seems to get a lot of underlying parts working well, and KDE gets stuff that I can directly see and use.

Tenor panning out will be exceptionally good (what are the chances there will be Thunderbird extension to offer at least some support? I think pretty good), especially with MS being iffy on WinFS, the one Vista feature everyone I know would love, especially those less learned and tech savvy (AKA not willing to break stuff to narrow down the right way to do things); and it goes well beyond what WinFS was and is planned to do.

Reply Score: 1

Morty Member since:
2005-07-06

KDE 4 was actually talk about ditching a few MM tools, including aRts, in favor of just going with Gstreamer.

That's a missunderstanding, it was discussed and rejected a long time ago. KDE will not repeat the mistake and tie itself to one multimedia solution again, and be forced to keep it to ensure backwards compability and API stability. In this regard Gstreamer are no better than aRts, you get the same limitations with only a different name. The solution is a backend independent library, Phonon (formerly KDEMM).

Being backend independent it will give the possibility to use the backend best fitted for the users need, be it NMM, aRts, Xine, Gstreamer, Jack, Direct sound or the next super framework to be released.

Reply Score: 5

cerbie Member since:
2006-01-02

Oooohh, neat.

Reply Score: 1

KDE4 should be amazing
by REMF on Sat 18th Feb 2006 14:18 UTC
REMF
Member since:
2006-02-05

just a bummer we have to wait for it so long.

I was hoping it would make the October 06 release of the big KDE distro's (SUSE, Kubuntu etc), but it looks more like it will be the April 07 releases that will finally get KDE4. ;)

Reply Score: 1

Do we really need a DE for "Working"
by abhaysahai on Sat 18th Feb 2006 15:58 UTC
abhaysahai
Member since:
2005-10-20

I have been using linux since RedHat 6.2 came out. Since then I have used Mandrake, gentoo, FreeBSD, gentoo, Kubuntu and now Arch. I have tried almost all DE from openbox, xfce4, e17 to KDE and Gnome. After shifting to Arch I realized that I had enough of distro shifting and its time to just get my work done with my existing setup. Luckily Arch is one of the best distro I have seen. I am equally at ease with fluxbox and feel the same with so called bloated ones like KDE/GNOME. At the end of the day I need to do some programming, listen to music, watch movie and work with openoffice. Where does DE come into picture ?? Do we want to work with our system or look at the eye-candy ? I Think we should stop any KDE vs Gnome statements and realize that they are just means of getting our work done, which we can do using any of the Window manager.

Reply Score: 1