Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 26th Mar 2006 19:50 UTC
Amiga & AROS It was a nice departure last week, to write about not so serious matters, in order to make fun of everything and everyone (including myself). Today, however, it's back to more serious matters (if you can call computer matters 'serious', of course): Amiga OS4. Or how it will fail utterly if Hyperion/Amiga Inc. don't get their heads out of the sand. Note: Sunday Eve Column.
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Pegasos
by digitaldisaster on Sun 26th Mar 2006 20:05 UTC
digitaldisaster
Member since:
2006-01-02

As Hyperion have stated repeatedly, they have nothing against a Pegasos port (Some AmigaOne users do due to past rivalry betwen Genesi/Amiga Inc. and MorphOS/AmigaOS) but they would need money to do it and the are legally bound by a contract with Amiga Inc. which prevents them from porting (or more likely selling) to any platform which does not obtain a license from Amiga Inc. Genesi/Pegasos has no such license and with Amiga Inc. seemingly shut down Genesi and all potential hardware manufacturers seem to stand little chance of getting one. I would love to see my Peg running AmigaOS as I bought it due to the limited availability and high price of AmigaOne's

Reply Score: 5

RE: Pegasos
by hawkfb on Tue 28th Mar 2006 05:25 UTC in reply to "Pegasos"
hawkfb Member since:
2006-02-18

What about Hyperion getting the license themselves for their wanted hardware? be it a PPC Mac or a Pegasos.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Pegasos
by wegster on Wed 29th Mar 2006 01:55 UTC in reply to "RE: Pegasos"
wegster Member since:
2006-02-10

What about Hyperion getting the license themselves for their wanted hardware? be it a PPC Mac or a Pegasos.

Well, in light of much 'non-info' out there, we're left to speculate on the answer to that one. The past answers (from Hyperion) would basically be, 'we're not a hardware company,' but it's also been stated that in the event it's expected that sales would cover porting costs (and presumably the license fee plus a return), it is a possibility for Hyperion to do it.

This was also brought up in one of the many rounds of 'Why no OS4 for Pegasos' discussions. The best I can
guess on it is this:

Hyperion's working with someone that is already paying them their fees, and has some sales potential. I used to think that was either Troika or ACK (a flex-ATX G3, but cheap, system, and a SoC standalone or A1200 board, also cheap, but obviously neither very powerful). As those projects have missed claimed dates with zero real information from either company, I don't know. They've mentioned or hinted at some other system for the 'high end,' but no more info's been given.

If the first part still holds true and is simply delayed, we're left with- would they rather eat the porting costs or be paid for them? The answer there is obvious, but again, without something to purchase, either a piece of the puzzle is missing, or I really have no clue, and would expect them to port to _something_, assuming they're even able to convince AInc to bless a license/port.

It's possible there is some system or port Hyperion is working on, outside of the two mentioned systems. If there isn't, and both of them turn to vapor, yeah, I'd certainly hope they manage to get AInc's blessing on a Mac or Peg port, or both, and SOON.

Again, no one knows, or at least no one that's talking...hopefully at some point in the future, this simply becomes a bad joke, and hardware is available. If not, then it may still be a bad joke...just in a different way.

Reply Score: 1

PowerPC Macs
by Tyr. on Sun 26th Mar 2006 20:39 UTC
Tyr.
Member since:
2005-07-06

I agree PowerPC macs could be a short term solution. There must be a stock of mini's lingering unsold somewhere. It's a great little computer and should possitively fly with the Amiga OS on it. At least they would get their product out there. If they released a stand-alone version that would run on the mini I would certainly consider buying that, for old times sake.

But their best bet is still going x86. Why not target x86 macs ? That would reduce the hardware to support. I don't think piracy is really an issue. The hard core will buy it anyway and for the rest they can use (maybe even desperately need) any exposure to a larger audience they can get.

Reply Score: 2

RE: PowerPC Macs
by digitaldisaster on Sun 26th Mar 2006 21:09 UTC in reply to "PowerPC Macs"
digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

Amiga OS 4 running on PowerPC Macs would undoubtedly bring in some money and would be a good short term solution (Even BeOS R5 ran on the supported Macs despite support for all new PowerPC systems having been dropped a long time ago due to licensing problems. It was a revenue stream for Be that made it worth there while to keep up the support) as there are a lot of Macs out there and even a few percent of those already in use and in the distribution channel plus those that will be sold up to the completion of the transition later this year would be a huge market for Amiga OS. The licensing problem still remains however . The port would be more difficult than other platforms such as the Pegasos as the lack of official documentation would force Hyperion to rely on Darwin, *BSD and Linux code for documentation.
The official line from Hyperion about x86 is focused about 2 point,s:
1) It brings you into direct competition with Microsoft, which is not somewhere you want to be. Look at what happened to Be Inc. the second they started to get noticed by the various OEM's then Microsoft used its Monopoly to shut them down.
2) You have a huge amount of hardware to write drivers for, test and certify. Manufacturers and OEMs are not going to be interested in working with a company as small as Hyperion when it took years for them to begin to recognise Linux and BeOS.
Using Intel/EFI Apple Macs means you are still relying on closed, proprietary architecture and so limiting your install base but now you no longer have the support of the manufacturer and so no specs or guarantee that your OS will work with future systems. Plus you just alienated those who want to build their own systems.
The ideal situation for Hyperion would be buy Amiga Inc or to get it (And/or Eyetech) declared bankrupt activate the clause in the OS4 contract which apparently allows them to continue using the Amiga brand it any of the other companies fold.
Another problem is applications, they have only just finished re-targetting the OS to PowerPC and are just starting to see the first of the new native apps work their way through (PowerPC classic cards have been around for a while and so there were some PowerPC native apps available). Plus things like the JIT emulator that allows high speed execution of 68k apps and is almost entirely PowerPC assembly code has only just been released with update 4 and would have to be completely re-writen.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: PowerPC Macs
by Pixie on Mon 27th Mar 2006 14:04 UTC in reply to "RE: PowerPC Macs"
Pixie Member since:
2005-09-30

1) It brings you into direct competition with Microsoft, which is not somewhere you want to be. Look at what happened to Be Inc. the second they started to get noticed by the various OEM's then Microsoft used its Monopoly to shut them down.
People are so keen on Be, why don't you look at Zeta for a change?

Reply Score: 1

v Avoiding paying royalties
by Redhouse on Sun 26th Mar 2006 20:49 UTC
Amiga, Inc. is not Amiga
by transami on Sun 26th Mar 2006 20:54 UTC
transami
Member since:
2006-02-28

Unfortuately Amiga Inc is full of s8. Look at their past conduct with an objective mind and you can only come to the conclusion that they have no intention of doing anything worth wild. It's all just a ploy to eek cash from die hard fans. And even if that's not true, it might as well be --b/c otherwise it means they are just complete morons. Either way it's a no win siutation.

If you are an Amiga fan, your best bet is to get behind AROS. Help those guys out! And then we can forget those loosers who like call themselves "Amiga" --being one of the first Amiga owners, I know for sure, Amiga they're not!

Edited 2006-03-26 20:55

Reply Score: 4

RE: Amiga, Inc. is not Amiga
by Redhouse on Sun 26th Mar 2006 21:06 UTC in reply to "Amiga, Inc. is not Amiga"
Redhouse Member since:
2006-03-24

Hyperion are also to blame, you just do not do deals with a company like Amiga Inc. Now Hyperion will not release the "final" version due to all the money they have to pay people.

In this case i think more of Amiga Inc than Hyperion ( that is saying something).

Reply Score: 0

digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

Is that really you Alan/Eyetech or just someone trolling. If so are you saying that Hyperion are in some way responsible for there being no more AmigaOne's

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Amiga, Inc. is not Amiga
by Redhouse on Sun 26th Mar 2006 21:45 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Amiga, Inc. is not Amiga"
Redhouse Member since:
2006-03-24

Sorry but i can not say anything about the license due to solicitors instructions but please do not think of us badly. We only tried to help our favorite computer platform and feel bad that we failed our customers.

Reply Score: 3

digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

I would say that Eyetech didn't fail its customers, if it is really to close then it may have failed as a company but it helped bring OS4 to the world and without it there would almost certainly not be an OS4 as we know it today and probably no OS4 at all. It will be sad to see a company as old as Eyetech, one of the last from the Amiga scene, close

Reply Score: 1

RE: Amiga, Inc. is not Amiga
by digitaldisaster on Sun 26th Mar 2006 21:16 UTC in reply to "Amiga, Inc. is not Amiga"
digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

I think the only conclusion you can come to when you look at Amiga Inc. is that they have no interest in the AmigaOS market, they just want to work on the Amiga DE/AmigaAnywhere which is dead in the water due mainly to Java. Amiga Inc. almost certainly has no money left and is dead in the water but even when they did have money they didn't want to spend it on AmigaOS/AmigaOne which is a crying shame. Amiga needs a new owner (again) one that cares about AmigaOS and the technology behind it

Reply Score: 2

Good writeup
by Emil on Sun 26th Mar 2006 21:14 UTC
Emil
Member since:
2005-06-29

Thom, nice writeup. I was just about to do something similar (ie. summing last 5 years for the audience that does not follow happenings).

I would say that AmigaOS has a problem. Thier users still thinks that they can take over the world. OTOH they are surprised that people on C=64 scene can produce an TCP-enabled OS and a CSS-enabled browser.

It's becasue C64 users are ejoying the hobby instead of looking for enemies (like Genesi, but I shouldn't go there, as I'm currently working with them).

Guys, drop the world domination plan, in the world dominated with solutions so powerful and flexible you actually can't hit the OS-scene like that.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Good writeup
by digitaldisaster on Sun 26th Mar 2006 21:19 UTC in reply to "Good writeup"
digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

Amiga OS has the problem that Amiga Inc has no money and no interest and Eyetech just has no money. Eyetech on its own wouldn't be such a big problem, ACK and Trokia plus any other company that comes along with a new design or even a Peg2 based design would be able to pick up the ball and after a short(ish) delay we would have new hardware but with the licensing requirements from Amiga Inc. no-one can create new hardware. Someone needs to buy Amiga Inc and/or Eyetech and still have the money left over to make new hardware but who is there left, certainly no-one that's currently in the Amiga market.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Good writeup
by Emil on Sun 26th Mar 2006 21:25 UTC in reply to "RE: Good writeup"
Emil Member since:
2005-06-29

AmigaOS has a problem called Amiga INC. It's a shame that after all those years we're still (well, not all there's few people who run OS, as Thom says -- three people and a cow ;-) in a same place.

In the mean time systems like SkyOS, Zeta, Haiku are moving forward.

Troika is just a hot air for me. I'd love to be proven wrong on this.

My ultimate dream is OS4 on Efika that will bring cash to Hyperion, but we'd have to wait for Amiga INC corpse to rot.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Good writeup
by digitaldisaster on Sun 26th Mar 2006 21:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Good writeup"
digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

I really want Trokia to work and it seems there is real work going on but there does seem something fishy about it and I don;t know how they are going to resolve the licensing issue with Amiga Inc. in there present state. As I keep saying, someone needs to buy them. I'll give 'em a tenner for it, £15 if I get the bike ;-)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Good writeup
by Redhouse on Sun 26th Mar 2006 21:29 UTC in reply to "RE: Good writeup"
Redhouse Member since:
2006-03-24

Our solicitor has told us that we can not comment on the deal with Hyperion due to legal proceedings, but i can say we tried and failed, due to this we now are leaving the Amiga scene.

Thank you for supporting us all for many years.

PS - The last orders we received last week will be sent out before our closure.

Alan Redhouse

Edited 2006-03-26 21:32

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Good writeup
by Raffaele on Wed 29th Mar 2006 17:16 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Good writeup"
Raffaele Member since:
2005-11-12

@ the so called "Redhouse" who wrote these news:

>>>>>
By Redhouse (-0.22) on 2006-03-26 21:29:24 UTC in reply to ""

Our solicitor has told us that we can not comment on the deal with Hyperion due to legal proceedings, but i can say we tried and failed, due to this we now are leaving the Amiga scene.

Thank you for supporting us all for many years.

PS - The last orders we received last week will be sent out before our closure.

Alan Redhouse

Edited 2006-03-26 21:32
>>>>>


There are some evidences (and other people in ohter threads claiming) that you are an impersonificator.

So I ask publicly the moderators to check your position and MORE check your identity, and finally to check also for the news you are posting about Eyetech situation, and if these will find false, then it is up to them to take right decisions and actions.

If I am wrong, and you are the real Alan Redhouse from Eyetech, then I ask you to apologize me, and the moderatos not to take actions against you.

Sincerely,

Raffaele

Reply Score: 1

weird!
by broken_symlink on Sun 26th Mar 2006 21:26 UTC
broken_symlink
Member since:
2005-07-06

i've never actually seen any of these so called screenshots.

Reply Score: 1

RE: weird!
by digitaldisaster on Sun 26th Mar 2006 21:36 UTC in reply to "weird!"
digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

there are 141 assorted user submitted ones here http://amigaworld.net/modules/features/index.php?op=c&cat_id=6&rev_... and 9 slightly older (2004 and before) ones here http://amigaworld.net/modules/features/index.php?op=c&cat_id=6&rev_...

Reply Score: 2

Good summary
by DevL on Sun 26th Mar 2006 21:32 UTC
DevL
Member since:
2005-07-06

As a former Amiga user with a ton of second thoughts about Genesi as a company I can only say: good summary and analysis Thom. Today, I believe that the Pegasos is more or less the only viable option (in Amigaland terms, a slightly larger sheep herding village...sorry user base than today) to get AmigaOS into circulation.

Yes, yes, there are a couple of AmigaOne users who will disagree but as Thom pointed out - they got their HW already and there aren't too many of them (not to mention the cost of the HW when it was available...scary*).

* Yes, yes, small production runs equal high costs.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Good summary
by digitaldisaster on Sun 26th Mar 2006 21:46 UTC in reply to "Good summary"
digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

sadly without Amiga Inc. there are no viable options, Hyperion need to find a way to activate the part of their contract that they say will allow them to continue in the absece of any of the other Amiga partners as both Amiga Inc and Eyetech are looking like they aren't going to be doing anything in the near future

Reply Score: 3

The whole Amiga mess
by SimpleMachine on Sun 26th Mar 2006 21:49 UTC
SimpleMachine
Member since:
2005-07-07

The Hyperion people must have some kind of hardware solution in the works for the future. Why would they keep updating the OS if they didnt?.

Reply Score: 1

RE: The whole Amiga mess
by digitaldisaster on Sun 26th Mar 2006 21:59 UTC in reply to "The whole Amiga mess"
digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

well apart from Hyperion probably being privy to more information than the rest of us I would have to say that it is the reported clause in their contract which protects them in the case of the collapse of any other Amiga partners and delivering a final solution to the existing user-base of a few thousand AmigaOn's plus the Cyberstorm PPC/Blizzard PPC accelerator cards for classic Amigas. If they were to stop now at thist latest hurdle then they would be throwing away years of hard work for nothing.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: The whole Amiga mess
by melgross on Mon 27th Mar 2006 06:18 UTC in reply to "RE: The whole Amiga mess"
melgross Member since:
2005-08-12

If that's the main reason why they would continue work, then they are all fools. To throw good money after bad is the worst business sense anyone could have.

If they don't have a date of completion, and a respectable plan to recover all that they have spend on the project, as well as continuing profits, then they should get out now. If they have no control over the OS itself, then they have nothing.

It seems as though there are no more than a few who are interested at this stage, and there are fewer every day.

I joined Omega.org to see what is going on, and to give occasional help, if I could. But it looks grim.

I have no interest in buying a machine, and I don't know anyone else who does either.

It's sad, but its time has gone.

Reply Score: 1

RE: The whole Amiga mess
by Redhouse on Sun 26th Mar 2006 22:05 UTC in reply to "The whole Amiga mess"
Redhouse Member since:
2006-03-24

There was no backup plan, we truly believed we could handle the whole Amigaone situation. No other new hardware is allowed without authorisation.

Our Solicitor has tried to contact Amiga Inc for many months but received no reply, please note taking legal action towards Amiga Inc and Hyperion was used as the last resort (other ways failed).

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: The whole Amiga mess
by kimsen1967 on Sun 26th Mar 2006 23:47 UTC in reply to "RE: The whole Amiga mess"
kimsen1967 Member since:
2006-03-26

Still imposting Alan Redhouse i see, trying to fill googles caches with false quotes ?.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: The whole Amiga mess
by digitaldisaster on Sun 26th Mar 2006 23:55 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: The whole Amiga mess"
digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

I would be interested to see what e-mail address that account is registered to as I too seriously doubt it is Alan, we would have had an announcement on AW.net by now if it was.

Reply Score: 2

OSNews editorial on AW.net
by Emil on Sun 26th Mar 2006 22:19 UTC
Emil
Member since:
2005-06-29
Amazing!
by enloop on Sun 26th Mar 2006 22:58 UTC
enloop
Member since:
2005-11-13

If you sign a contract to market an OS that lacks a hardware platform, and that contract forbids you developing and marketing such a platform, then you deserve to wear a tee-shirt that says "I'm The Stupid Guy The Other Guy Is With".

If the Amiga people -- whoever they happen to be -- have confidence in their OS, then the obvious solution is to take a leaf from Apple's book and go into the hardware business. If they aren't willing to take the risk that Jobs and Wozniak took, why should they expect anyone else to take the risk of buying their product?

Reply Score: 3

Amazing!
by enloop on Sun 26th Mar 2006 23:30 UTC
enloop
Member since:
2005-11-13

If you sign a contract to market an OS that lacks a hardware platform, and that contract forbids you developing and marketing such a platform, then you deserve to wear a tee-shirt that says "I'm The Stupid Guy The Other Guy Is With".

If the Amiga people -- whoever they happen to be -- have confidence in their OS, then the obvious solution is to take a leaf from Apple's book and go into the hardware business. If they aren't willing to take the risk that Jobs and Wozniak took, why should they expect anyone else to take the risk of buying their product?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Amazing!
by digitaldisaster on Sun 26th Mar 2006 23:46 UTC in reply to "Amazing!"
digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

When the contract was signed Amiga Inc gave Eyetech Inc and Hyperion VOF the rights to use the Amiga name and the AmigaOS 3.9 source code as well as any patents. Hyperion would provide the OS and Hyperion the OS. Other companies wanting to provide hardware would have to acquire a license from Amiga Inc to stop piracy, make Amiga Inc. money from licensing fees and protect the investment that Eyetech made and the huge risk that they took.
Now Amiga Inc is virtually bankrupt and have become an un-contactable ghost company which means no-one else can become a licensee. Due partly (mostly?) to the large time gap between the release of the hardware and the OS becoming usable Eyetech have no money to do another production run of AmigaOne boards which means there is now no hardware to run the OS on as the initial release (4.0) approaches completion.
Apparently there is a clause in the Hyperion contract that would allow them to continue in the event of the loss of any of the Amiga partners. Obviously we don't know the exact details and wording of the contact but as one of the Hyperion partners is a lawyer you would expect them to have negotiated a good deal and not let themselves get screwed over in the contract. I suspect that that clause doesn't come into effect until the partner is declared bankrupt which neither Eyetech or Amiga Inc has been yet. Eyetech is however famous for not communicating for a long time before making a final announcement which prevents announcing products it later can't deliver or can't deliver on time (vapourware) which they have been stung with before but does lead to concern about the state of the company and the AmigaOne. It just seems that this time there won't b an announcement other than Eyetech has ceased all Amiga related operations and is retargeting to x industry or even ceased to trade/exist

Reply Score: 0

The Amiga is dead!
by dinos on Mon 27th Mar 2006 00:13 UTC
dinos
Member since:
2005-11-09

Once described as the computer that would not die, today its definitely dead.
I was using the Amiga between 1987 and 1999 as my primary computer. My company was the Amiga distributor in my country from 1990 till Commodore died in 1993. Even after that we continued to sell and support it till 1999 when it was obvious that there was no way to save it.
For the younger people today, the Amiga is another legacy platform/os, just like all the old computers: C64, Atari, Apple II etc. What non prime-time Amiga users fail to understand is that between 1985 and 1993 Amiga was THE shit! It was lightyears ahead of anything there was. All the interesting software where available only for the Amiga. It had a fully multitasking os, full screen video playback and 24 bit (12 bit by default) graphics. You couldn't play a decent game anywhere but the arcades or on the Amiga. At the same time you had DOS and Apple Mac plus (Win95 was released 2 years after the Amiga was dead). It took 7 years for Microsoft and Apple to catch up to the Amiga with Win2k and OS X.

Non of us bought the Amiga because "it is a nice little computer, with a nice OS, so it makes a nice alternative platform. Maybe if they try hard enough, it could offer what the big OS's offer today in 5 years time!" We bought it cause it kicked ass!
My point is: There is no way that the Amiga could ever challenge WinXP, much less OSX. So it can never have any significance in the history of computing from now on, at least in the way it changed the world of computers in 1985. So, let it rest in peace. If you want to see what it was all about try UAE/WinUAE.

All this talk of the Amiga coming back is getting a little boring after 13 years...

Reply Score: 5

RE: The Amiga is dead!
by SamuraiCrow on Mon 27th Mar 2006 02:07 UTC in reply to "The Amiga is dead!"
SamuraiCrow Member since:
2005-11-19

I don't think that anyone in their right mind thinks that the classic Amiga hardware will ever return but there seem to be people holding out hopes that the Cell processor will hold new hope for consoles (Playstation 3) and embedded devices (some Toshiba HDTVs). In order for the Amiga to make a comeback these are the types of devices that AmigaOS should be targeting.

The end consumers may not fully grasp the possiblities of AmigaOS on embedded devices and set-top boxes yet but these are the precise devices that Amiga Inc. has been trying to target.

Computers nowadays are cheap commodity hardware that anybody can buy. Nobody is going to be impressed with an old OS on new hardware alone. We need new hardware to grow with the times.

I'm not sure if it's going to be AmigaOS since it's not far ahead of the pack anymore but it is small and relatively powerful for the memory footprint. This makes it well-suited for the precise set-top consoles and HDTVs that can use it.

I was sad to see the classic Amiga die an untimely death. I would be even sadder if it were only allowed to live on substandard hardware like my MicroA1-c. (If you got a good one you're one of the many lucky users out there. I wasn't one of them.)

Reply Score: 3

RE: The Amiga is dead!
by viton on Mon 27th Mar 2006 19:39 UTC in reply to "The Amiga is dead!"
viton Member since:
2005-08-09

True. The Amiga was designed to be superior. So it either be superior or be dead.
A little silent machine could be nice to have though, but this machine should be called Amiga Mini =)
AmigaOS is dead too. There is so little progress since the 3.1 version. Adding of TCP etc is just a little visible thing. But the whole OS internals must be completely redesigned.

Reply Score: 1

v Oops
by TADavis on Mon 27th Mar 2006 02:41 UTC
Forget x86
by dmantione on Mon 27th Mar 2006 06:50 UTC
dmantione
Member since:
2005-07-06

This is not Mac OS X, where there have been 5 years of preparations to run on Intel. For example, the AmigaOS contains a dynamic m68000 to PowerPC just -in-time converter, which will require more than a recompile to generate x86 code.

Reply Score: 1

@Thom:
by cHaOs667 on Mon 27th Mar 2006 07:43 UTC
cHaOs667
Member since:
2006-03-22

Hmm very uninformed Article you have written above.
At first, If you had informed yourself on Sites like amigaworld.net, amigaone.de than you would experience that Os4 has a lot of more Users than the 3 Man and a cow. And many people are working with the AmigaOne Computers daily. People like me.

I agree in one point with you, the hardware situation is not soo good as it should be and could be better... but wait a few weeks and we will see if it gets better ;)

Secondly, if you had read some articles on amigaworld.net than you would know that the Pegasos Open HW Design is NOT RoHS compliant, so you have to change the design of the board and who should do this? Hyperion? A Software Company?

At third, for your damn "Please gimme OS4 on x86" "i want os4 on x86" whining you should not only look at the competition side... if AmigaOS should be avaible on x86 you can count the seconds till an pirate version spreads the net and kills this OS - yeah that would be a pleasure... ;)

Reply Score: 0

RE: @Thom:
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 27th Mar 2006 07:53 UTC in reply to "@Thom:"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

At first, If you had informed yourself on Sites like amigaworld.net, amigaone.de than you would experience that Os4 has a lot of more Users than the 3 Man and a cow.

Sarcasm, people, sarcasm.

Secondly, if you had read some articles on amigaworld.net than you would know that the Pegasos Open HW Design is NOT RoHS compliant, so you have to change the design of the board and who should do this? Hyperion? A Software Company?

From what I've been reading on AW is that RoHS compliance was not determined?

At third, for your damn "Please gimme OS4 on x86" "i want os4 on x86" whining you should not only look at the competition side... if AmigaOS should be avaible on x86 you can count the seconds till an pirate version spreads the net and kills this OS - yeah that would be a pleasure... ;)

It's not whining. I actually dismissed this option. Secondly, you did not read the article at all, did you? I *specifically* mentioned piracy. It might be custom at AW to just spout without thinking, but here people prefer if you actually read articles before commenting on them.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: @Thom:
by cHaOs667 on Mon 27th Mar 2006 08:45 UTC in reply to "RE: @Thom:"
cHaOs667 Member since:
2006-03-22

Ah come on. Don't blame AW.net for your failure not to investigate your statements correctly.

Maybe you should read the following post:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18378&fo...

And i aks you here, why do you ignore the postings of Rogue and EntilZha?

"Sarcasm, people, sarcasm."
Yes! You are the master of the OS4 community and you know all market sales... the holy grail. Please forgive me my lord... THIS is sarcasm!

"From what I've been reading on AW is that RoHS compliance was not determined?"

bbrv says in his own blog and on older AW.net Threads that the Pegasos Open Hardware Design is NOT RoHS compliant and have to be changed.
I Personally like the Pegasos II Boards and i would love to see OS4 running on them! But search for the topic in the aw.net forums and you will get any answer for your OS4 on Peg questions!

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: @Thom:
by DevL on Mon 27th Mar 2006 09:25 UTC in reply to "RE: @Thom:"
DevL Member since:
2005-07-06

"And i aks you here, why do you ignore the postings of Rogue and EntilZha?"

Forum postings don't count. Being able to purchase hardware in real life does.

Reply Score: 1

RE: @Thom:
by -ujb- on Mon 27th Mar 2006 08:26 UTC in reply to "@Thom:"
-ujb- Member since:
2005-10-21

All cruical parts of the Peg are RoHS confirmed since monthes already.

Reply Score: 1

Wrong
by DevL on Mon 27th Mar 2006 09:24 UTC in reply to "@Thom:"
DevL Member since:
2005-07-06

"Hmm very uninformed Article you have written above."

As one that has followed the developments in Amigland closely since 1993 I'd say it's spot on, admittedly with a slight tounge in cheek regarding the 3 men and a cow.

In fact it is 4 men, a cow, and a bunch of forum-flaming sheep.

"At third, for your damn "Please gimme OS4 on x86" "i want os4 on x86" whining you should not only look at the competition side... if AmigaOS should be avaible on x86 you can count the seconds till an pirate version spreads the net and kills this OS - yeah that would be a pleasure... ;) "

Yes, we've all seen how Mac OS X has vanished from the face of the Earth.

There's a BIG difference between relasing an OS for ALL x86 computers (Windows, Linux, BSD) and releasing an OS for SPECIFIC x86 hardware (Mac OS X).

"I agree in one point with you, the hardware situation is not soo good as it should be and could be better..."

This whole mess comes from the fact that Hyperion et al targetted PPC (mostly for historic reasons) in the first place.

And the situation is no "not so good" it is non-existant simply because there is NO hardware available.

"but wait a few weeks and we will see if it gets better ;) "

I waited for years and years. Then I gave up and went over to the Mac camp and don't regret it for a second. Sadly, this waiting is what have completely killed off the Amiga market.

Reply Score: 2

RE: @Thom:
by MORB on Mon 27th Mar 2006 09:33 UTC in reply to "@Thom:"
MORB Member since:
2005-07-06

"At third, for your damn "Please gimme OS4 on x86" "i want os4 on x86" whining you should not only look at the competition side... if AmigaOS should be avaible on x86 you can count the seconds till an pirate version spreads the net and kills this OS - yeah that would be a pleasure... ;) "

Kill what ?
Please.
There is nothing Amiga to kill that hasn't been already dead and rotting for ages.
AmigaOS doesn't need money to be developed. In fact, it almost use none, because as far as I know (knowing one of the devs and one guy who used to work for hyperion), most of the devs are doing it unpaid, as a hobby (which is why it takes ages)

Beside, I would submit that it would actually take more, much more than mere seconds for an hypothetical pirate x86 version of amigaos to spread accross the net. Something more like eons, because twelve years of almost stagnancy have made it the very definition of irrelevant.
And having an x86 version would force the amiga community to face this, and they don't like that "reality" thing very much.

Edited 2006-03-27 09:38

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: @Thom:
by AmigaRobbo on Mon 27th Mar 2006 10:21 UTC in reply to "RE: @Thom:"
AmigaRobbo Member since:
2005-11-15

Regards Piracy of a i386 OS4, I'd much rather be in Zeos postion than OS4, how many of they they sold? 100,000 compaired to what 3 maybe 4 thousand? and that's being very kind to OS4.

Depressing really, as it's very good...

Reply Score: 2

The amiga community ? Hah
by MORB on Mon 27th Mar 2006 09:18 UTC
MORB
Member since:
2005-07-06

The amiga community stopped making sense a long time ago.

Just read some of the comments there: http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18378&fo...

Some of them claim that they stay on the platform because of the community. I left it years ago for this very reason.
What's left of the amiga community is a bunch of reclusive and delusional crackpots rejecting almost any technological advancement that has occured in the rest of the world since the demise of commodore. I'm pretty sure that in this day and age you can still find people there claiming that memory protection is bad.

They still believe that there is some commercial market on the platform.
They don't like open source. Open source = linux, linux = bad because it's obviously way ahead of amigaos in terms of development, community, and future and they can't face that kind of reality.
They could flock to AROS and make it good, and they could have a kick-ass, modernized open-source amiga OS running on commodity hardware...
But no, they're apparently somehow convinced that a proprietary OS running on some proprietary hardware, using a processor not even used by any major desktop platform anymore (good luck finding desktop grade power pc processors and related components guys) is the way to go.

Reading those comments, some of them still apparently think about AmigaOS as being competing for the same market as windows, linux and macosX.

Actually they are only a handful, and divided and fighting each other, probably some kind of strange contest to figure out which of pegasos/morphos or a1/amigaos is the most irrelevant and doomed. I fail to see how they can expect to accomplish any of those pipe dreams in those conditions.

I'm not sure they even realize that amigaos4 is developed mostly by people doing it as a hobby on their free time after work. I think only the Frieden brothers are paid to do this.

Edited 2006-03-27 09:20

Reply Score: 2

RE: The amiga community ? Hah
by Emil on Mon 27th Mar 2006 11:28 UTC in reply to "The amiga community ? Hah"
Emil Member since:
2005-06-29

"I'm pretty sure that in this day and age you can still find people there claiming that memory protection is bad."

Spot on! They claim it makes your system slow. Don't make me go to RT. ;-)

Reply Score: 1

digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

I've never seen any of the Hyperion people claim that memory protection is slow, in fact there are rudementry memory protection systems in OS4 to stop programs walking over parts of the kernel. The problem is that the AmigaOS API was never really designed for memory protection (IIRC the early 68k series chips had no MMU hardware for memory protection) and there are far too many apps that ignore the API specs (Notice MorphOS doesn't have it either for the same reason) so while you could change the API/ABI and break all exsting apps but there just aren't enough new apps to make this viable.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: The amiga community ? Hah
by MORB on Mon 27th Mar 2006 12:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: The amiga community ? Hah"
MORB Member since:
2005-07-06

"The problem is that the AmigaOS API was never really designed for memory protection (IIRC the early 68k series chips had no MMU hardware for memory protection) and there are far too many apps that ignore the API specs (Notice MorphOS doesn't have it either for the same reason)"

The old, obsolete amigaos api shouldn't even be a consideration here, because the code using this have to run in a software emulation anyway, so it's naturally sandboxed.

"in fact there are rudementry memory protection systems in OS4 to stop programs walking over parts of the kernel."

But not between apps ? Why, oh why ? With the old crap sandboxed away in a 68k emulator, they could have redesigned the API and memory management from scratch, in a way that would have worked with real memory protection.
I remember that it was kinda the general consensus among developers back when Amiga still interested me and people were already hoping for some messiah somewhere to descend from the skies with a new OS and hardware.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: The amiga community ? Hah
by -ujb- on Mon 27th Mar 2006 14:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: The amiga community ? Hah"
-ujb- Member since:
2005-10-21

"The old, obsolete amigaos api shouldn't even be a consideration here, because the code using this have to run in a software emulation anyway, so it's naturally sandboxed."

No - the 68k apps aren't boxed. Only the cpu is emulated. The 68k apps are using the system API natively and are sharing the same addresss space. And that is the major draw back of AOS. It is not updateable to *real* MP without breaking backward compatibility or introducing a box system (like it was thought to be in MorphOS, unfortunately *only* the box exists there yet...).

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: The amiga community ? Hah
by Emil on Mon 27th Mar 2006 13:47 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: The amiga community ? Hah"
Emil Member since:
2005-06-29

"I've never seen any of the Hyperion people claim that memory protection is slow"

I didn't say it was Hyperion guys. Just some OS4 users (I don't have URL at hand, but the discussion was on AW.net). And yes, MP and RT makes OS works slower because it adds additional things to care about. AmigaOS is fast because of that. But it also makes it easy to kill and thus not suitable for a embedded space (would you like to have your elevator go down just because OS crashed?)

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: The amiga community ? Hah
by MORB on Mon 27th Mar 2006 14:18 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: The amiga community ? Hah"
MORB Member since:
2005-07-06

"And yes, MP and RT makes OS works slower because it adds additional things to care about. AmigaOS is fast because of that."

Yeah. That sounds like nowaday's amiga logic alright: sacrifice security entirely to gain a little speed (seriously, you're lucky that no one would bother attacking amigaos, because it would make windows look like an impenetrable fortress by comparison), but run only on yesteryear hardware so that anyway it still runs slower than OSes with memory protection on cheap commodity hardware.

Reply Score: 2

RE: The amiga community ? Hah
by segedunum on Mon 27th Mar 2006 16:09 UTC in reply to "The amiga community ? Hah"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

The amiga community stopped making sense a long time ago.

Just read some of the comments there: http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18378&fo...

What's left of the amiga community is a bunch of reclusive and delusional crackpots rejecting almost any technological advancement that has occured in the rest of the world since the demise of commodore.


After reading that thread, I have to agree with you. These people are crackers, and considering the amount of Linux/BSD/OSS/Microsoft stuff that goes on out there that's going some. I sat back in astonishment, because I didn't think there were enough people following Amiga to create a thread that long! Are they all running Amiga, or just talking about it?

The really astonishing thing is that they are arguing over something that doesn't exist, and can't exist for anyone wanting to use Amiga OS because it simply doesn't run on any hardware for people to try! Take this comment:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&to...

Really Sherlock? And why don't many people have much experience with Amiga?!

I mean, seriously, to get Amiga out there for people to use it it needs to run on some hardware out there - Pegasos or whatever. However, a license is required to do that so I see the whole Amiga thing as utterly pointless. Why bother at all? People aren't going to be able to use it because they can't actually run the thing, so that's that, as they say. Amiga Incorporated don't look as if they're going to do anything about it and if they don't Hyperion can't.

What Tom is saying is that Hyperion and Amiga Inc. need to get together and make something of the sorry situation. Repeating the same thing for over a hundred comments isn't going to help people use Amiga. Without that happening, and Amiga expanding its userbase and community, it is as extinct as a Dodo and someone may as well pull the plug on Amigaworld as regards the future. After all, I've got more chance of winning the lottery and getting an all expenses paid trip to Mars than they have of running that site from an Amiga!

Edited 2006-03-27 16:11

Reply Score: 1

v RE[2]: The amiga community ? Hah
by Redhouse on Mon 27th Mar 2006 16:39 UTC in reply to "RE: The amiga community ? Hah"
RE[3]: The amiga community ? Hah
by ronaldst on Mon 27th Mar 2006 17:39 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: The amiga community ? Hah"
ronaldst Member since:
2005-06-29

@Redhouse

Amigaworld.net is full of idiots, to see proper Amiga users with proper realistic opinions visit Amiga.org

I wouldn't go that far. There are plenty of idiots on amiga.org. They're just not at the slashdot.org levels of amigaworld.net yet.

Reading amigaworld.net is sometimes scary. Some of the people posting there can actually vote in elections.

Reply Score: 1

What can I say
by AmigaRobbo on Mon 27th Mar 2006 10:10 UTC
AmigaRobbo
Member since:
2005-11-15

Speaking as someone who is one of those 3 men and a cow, and runs OS4 as my primary OS at home, you're totally right, although I really like to see a Mac port, I've got a 750mhz iBook that I'd really like to run OS4 on. Sure it's old and out of date, but it's got similar specs to the Amiga One...

Reply Score: 1

Is Amiga relevant anymore?
by axilmar on Mon 27th Mar 2006 11:29 UTC
axilmar
Member since:
2006-03-20

I was an Amiga user from 1987 to 1992. It was a much better computer than anything on the market those days. But today, is Amiga relevant? why would I want an Amiga? the Personal Computer business is so much widespread these days...

If people want to resurrect Amiga though, there is a way: do not compete with PCs, but with consoles. In other words, make Amiga a home computer, with open architecture, standard hardware, and make an intergrated package of computer with keyboard + mouse + joystick that can be attached to the television.

Reply Score: 1

Embarrased
by nicholas on Mon 27th Mar 2006 13:18 UTC
nicholas
Member since:
2005-07-07

I am embarrassed to tell people I am into Amiga's theses days.

The single reason for this is the lunatic behaviour of a vocal majority of the OS4 community.

Just visit amigaworld.net yourself to see for yourselves.

Reply Score: 0

My only Amiga experience
by JacobMunoz on Mon 27th Mar 2006 15:54 UTC
JacobMunoz
Member since:
2006-03-17

A very good friend of mine gave me (yup, for free) an old Amiga (don't remember the model) many years ago. It was the keyboard+cpu+floppy all in one style machine with an external power supply and a strange proprietary monitory. Along with that, he gave me six full boxes of games and software (probably over a hundred pieces of software), and the thing even came with joysticks! I remember turning it on without a floppy and seeing an amazing 3d rotating floppy disc flying through space with all sorts of whiz-bang going on. It blew my freakin mind! Then I later discovered that it was using a 64-bit 1.? Mhz cpu - and that blew my mind again! It was an amazing box that (after reading from floppies) ran like hot butter. My only problem was the proprietary monitor which had been flakey from the start (which is why he gave me the whole shebang), and eventually the monitor stopped working all together. I regret throwing it away (stupid, I know) and wish there was some way to revive the Amiga world. Sadly, I do believe Amiga has simply been too long delayed and unavailable for it to come back past the hobby community. BeOS and Amiga had many parallels, although Be is a much more recent system and it's availability on standard PCs will be it's saving grace. Nobody really wants to NEED special hardware to run an OS that doesn't really have much of a community anymore.

(sigh)

Reply Score: 2

RE: My only Amiga experience
by digitaldisaster on Mon 27th Mar 2006 18:20 UTC in reply to "My only Amiga experience"
digitaldisaster Member since:
2006-01-02

the 68k CPU's used on the Amiga's were 32bit, they were the same as used in pre-PowerPC Macs

Reply Score: 1

"Lack of hardware"
by Seehund on Mon 27th Mar 2006 18:04 UTC
Seehund
Member since:
2005-10-30

There is no real, actual "lack of hardware".

There's just a compulsory hardware vendor licensing scheme in place, which prevents AmigaOS from running on and be sold for the hardware that's actually available and even remotely viable.

As far as PowerPC goes, this effectively means Macs and Pegasoses.

With regards to an x86 port, the situation would not be any better there, as long as the "hardware licensing" is compulsory. AmigaOS 4 would still be dead, it would just be dead on better hardware. X86 support is needed sooner or later, but with the "Amiga hardware" licensing in place any port would be moot.

Amiga, Inc. and an irrelevant hardware dealer called Eyetech joined up, tried to force AmigaOS4 users to buy "new Amigas" in the 21st century when requiring a "special" hardware platform would only be obsolete and counterproductive, and thus killed AmigaOS.

The death might still be reversible though. All that's needed for AmigaOS to at least have a chance is to trash the compulsory hardware licensing/dongling/bundling scheme.

http://petitiononline.com/amigaos
http://amigapop.8bit.co.uk

Thom said: "Most logically: get hardware vendors to make hardware for you. Currently, as I said, there is no company doing just that."

Nobody will make hardware "for" AmigaOS. Not anyone that counts and could make a difference, anyway. Those who currently say they're making hardware "for AmigaOS" are either basement hobbyists or pranksters. More obsolete, ridiculously overpriced, underpowered hardware on a closed pseudo-market is exactly what we don't need!

Anyway, those people do not have a licence from AInc to be allowed to sell their hardware to AmigaOS users, and AInc have only ever granted the co-inventor of the scheme a license -- Eyetech. Everybody else has been ignored or turned down, including much more appropriate licensees with better products than Eyetech.

Reply Score: 1

RE: "Lack of hardware"
by MORB on Mon 27th Mar 2006 19:38 UTC in reply to ""Lack of hardware""
MORB Member since:
2005-07-06

"There is no real, actual "lack of hardware".

There's just a compulsory hardware vendor licensing scheme in place, which prevents AmigaOS from running on and be sold for the hardware that's actually available and even remotely viable."


Oh noes! We are taken hostage by a minuscule and obscure company holding a handful of trademarks and copyrights on some obsolete software and hardware designs!
It seems that all we can do is patient a few more years for the ever dangling hypothetic beginning of hope that we'll get some new hardware then that is already becoming obsolete today!
It will run with outdated powerpcs, it will be awesome!

Seriously, it seems that all the amiga community is able to do is sit down and complain.
If the commercial alternative are fighting for the 5 potential customers instead of cooperating and just getting things done, just focus on AROS and x86, and take your destiny in your own hands already.

But no, you'd rather complain and be powerless, ever and ever.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: "Lack of hardware"
by wegster on Mon 27th Mar 2006 22:29 UTC in reply to "RE: "Lack of hardware""
wegster Member since:
2006-02-10

Oh noes! We are taken hostage by a minuscule and obscure company holding a handful of trademarks and copyrights on some obsolete software and hardware designs!
It seems that all we can do is patient a few more years for the ever dangling hypothetic beginning of hope that we'll get some new hardware then that is already becoming obsolete today!
It will run with outdated powerpcs, it will be awesome!


Yeah, that's unfortunately the way it's panned out. It's arguable the future of PPC wasn't known back when the project started though, nor the length of time it would take.

Seriously, it seems that all the amiga community is able to do is sit down and complain.
If the commercial alternative are fighting for the 5 potential customers instead of cooperating and just getting things done, just focus on AROS and x86, and take your destiny in your own hands already.


Rofl, 5 potential customers, eh? ;-)

There certainly aren't hundreds of thousands in the near future, but the same could have been said of Linux back in the early and mind 90s. Yeah, I know Linux is open source, thanks..but the point is, once it's released, it's possible a relatively small number of users can keep it profitable, and there may be other avenues for profit for the companies(?) involved. No, I don't know what they are. Yes, I think the hardware situation is insanely stupid, but unlike the author, don't blame Hyperion for it.

Ironically, I used to check in on AROS progress over the years, and basically it was going nowhere for a long time. Recently, work on it seems to have picked up to, and I expect some may eventually migrate towards it in the future, but as an open source re-implementation of 3.X, without binary compatibility either, it remained 'less than exciting' for me. If/as it eventually may go beyond that, I expect it to become of more interest.

Of course, I also expect whatever happens with OS4 to also play some part in that as well ;-)

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: "Lack of hardware"
by MORB on Tue 28th Mar 2006 16:57 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: "Lack of hardware""
MORB Member since:
2005-07-06

"Yes, I think the hardware situation is insanely stupid, but unlike the author, don't blame Hyperion for it."

You should blame all of these tiny, half-assed companies not able to cooperate for anything and that hope that stabbing at each other continuously is a good step toward a commercially viable amiga market.

And anyway, the eternal question is why do you so absolutely want a commercial market to exist for the amiga that you cannot consider alternative solutions when companies have been iterating so many broken promises for the last twelve years ?


"Ironically, I used to check in on AROS progress over the years, and basically it was going nowhere for a long time."

Of course, it wasn't: an open source project needs community involvement, and all the amiga community is able to do is wait for something to magically happen.

And anyway, as far as going nowhere, I don't think that an half-assed OS missing a lot of common standard facilities, libraries and software (I'm speaking about open source stuff and how almost impossible it is to port any non-trivial application for the few developpers remaining on the platform) and running only on a non-existant platform running with a processor that has been retired from the desktop market is much of anywhere either.

Edited 2006-03-28 16:58

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: "Lack of hardware"
by wegster on Wed 29th Mar 2006 02:15 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: "Lack of hardware""
wegster Member since:
2006-02-10

You should blame all of these tiny, half-assed companies not able to cooperate for anything and that hope that stabbing at each other continuously is a good step toward a commercially viable amiga market.

No real argument there. Bad licensing scheme for the modern/current age, and it doesn't seem to get better, but even if most of the involved companies want it to be otherwise, AInc seems to have the final say on ports and licensing, and for whatever reason, seems to be...vacant. Hopefully either they become involved, at least to the point of making licensing painless, which still won't solve the long term issues (ie, port to other than PPC), but will allow some growth in the short term (versus zero without any hardware), or a way around the AInc licensing is found. Otherwise, things progress and get worse and then disappear. As Hyperion and others have quite a bit of time into OS4, you've got to believe they wouldn't do it for nothing, and have some way out of it. If not, then the 'Amiga saga' may end soon.

Of course, it wasn't: an open source project needs community involvement, and all the amiga community is able to do is wait for something to magically happen.

Not exactly true. There are a good number of people working on OS4 besides Hyperion; they're certainly making something happen, although without hardware, it may seem for naught right now. I bought an AmigaOne/OS4 to write some code I enjoy writing, and as it is, don't exactly have an overwhelming amount of free time to do that, let alone help to write an OS itself. AROS in the past, for me, without any binary compatibility, simply was less interesting to me. It also showed every indication of yet another dead open source project, with few or no CVS activity or site updates for what seemed like years. That's changed in the past few years perhaps, but according to you, it would seem the project is owed something, more than people who decide they want to work on OS4, on OS4 apps, or likewise for MorphOS. It comes down to personal interest, skills, time, and preference, not the same as 'sitting around.' If AROS is your preference, so be it, but don't diss people for not making the same choice as you did, or might have.

As far as the 'Amiga' userbase goes...yeah, it's changed. More users and less developers than what I'd expect...really ranging all over the place. It literally ranges from the user who still has his original Amiga, and still uses it as his or her daily system, and has never written a single line of ARexx script, to the people working on OS4, MOS, and/or AROS.

And anyway, as far as going nowhere, I don't think that an half-assed OS missing a lot of common standard facilities, libraries and software (I'm speaking about open source stuff and how almost impossible it is to port any non-trivial application for the few developers remaining on the platform) and running only on a non-existant platform running with a processor that has been retired from the desktop market is much of anywhere either.

Evidently I pissed you off with my AROS comment. If so, I apologize. Go check the wayback machine back to 99, then 2001, then 2003, and tell me just how much 'activity' was visible. It's not a slam on the project itself, as it was interesting when it first started, and remains so, and I wish AROS the best.

We could, of course, get into a mud-slinging contest and go over each point of AROS, OS4, etc, but what's the point? I've got no desire to at least.

Actually, G4s are still being sold in the remnants of PowerBooks, and there are G4 systems, although only used. The G3 in the 'micro' A1s was generally a 750GX with 1MB cache, and outside of AltiVec, performs pretty well compared to like speed G4s. Neither is going to set the world on fire, but what? A hobby OS should now have twin dual core G5s? You can say similar things about the GPX2 and other hobbyist systems..

Some ports seem to be easy enough, as the ton of SDL games would indicate, and others, not so easy. Full OpenGL support is lacking and the cause of some things not being easily ported yet, but the situation has improved over time at least.

*shrug* not much else to say on this, other than sorry if it seemed I was slagging off AROS...just giving the impression I've had when I checked into it several times in the past.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: "Lack of hardware"
by Raffaele on Wed 29th Mar 2006 18:12 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: "Lack of hardware""
Raffaele Member since:
2005-11-12

@ Mr. Morb who wrote:

>>>>>
You should blame all of these tiny, half-assed companies
>>>>>

>>>>>
And anyway, as far as going nowhere, I don't think that an half-assed OS missing a lot of common standard facilities, libraries and software (I'm speaking about open source stuff and how almost impossible it is to port any non-trivial application for the few developpers remaining on the platform) and running only on a non-existant platform running with a processor that has been retired from the desktop market is much of anywhere either.
>>>>>

Half *ASSED*???

Is my english so poor or this word has something in common with the word *ASS* that is offensive?

I feel being outraged.

Also I cant'accept any comment, any whining, any offense by a former amigan who left Amiga scene and comes here only to hurt us.

And also you wrote:

>>>>>
The amiga community stopped making sense a long time ago.

Some of them claim that they stay on the platform because of the community. I left it years ago for this very reason.
>>>>

Well, it is your admission.

Amiga is not your platform anymore.

If you have any comment be positive, be polite or else leave us alone.

You demonstrated that this thread is not for you.

This thread can live without your stupid comments.

This thread is to inform amiga related people, and other people still interested in Amiga and its (little but EXISTING market) that some things are moving in this camp.

We appreciate the interest of Thom Holwerda, even but complaining the lack of information that he has about our platform and the ingenuous comments (a bit ingenuous) on which are the steps to do to rise our head, because he knows only a little of all internal wars into Amiga, all the things which are "acting beyond the curtain of the scene", such as contracts, and "inside fights" amongst various Amiga firms.

>>>>>
What's left of the amiga community is a bunch of reclusive and delusional crackpots rejecting almost any technological advancement that has occured in the rest of the world since the demise of commodore.
>>>>>

It is a matter of our competence.

AmigaOS and MorphOS are Hobby OS.

We act as hobbists and want to spend our money for these products just as they are, just for our personal fun and our idea of information technology and of what an OS is.

What part of the word "hobby" is not clear to you?

But there are thing we desire strongly!

We want an OS which is NOT INVASIVE such as like Windows is.

We want an OS which DOES NOT REQUIRE a degree in information technology such as Linux is.

We want an OS at our command, and which is transparent, and DOES NOT TREAT the user as an eternal stupid capable only to make damages, and DOES NOT hide the inner structure of the OS undrnetah the GUI such as MacOS is.

>>>>>
They still believe that there is some commercial market on the platform.
>>>>>

>>>>>
Reading those comments, some of them still apparently think about AmigaOS as being competing for the same market as windows, linux and macosX.
>>>>>

We ARE on the market, with MorphOS and AmigaOS, even if you like or dislike it.

He who choose these OS and invests in them, making the choice NOT to go to windows, and NOT to go to MacOS, he keep this this platform on the market, even if he makes this for fun, or for Hobby.

Again... What part of the word "hobby" you had not understand???

Therefore even as an hobby OS, in good or in bad situations we must deal with big names such as Windows, Linux and MacOS right on THIS MARKET.

This is reality. this is our destiny.

To face big names in an immense globalized IT market.

>>>>>
They don't like open source. Open source = linux, linux = bad because it's obviously way ahead of amigaos in terms of development, community, and future and they can't face that kind of reality.
>>>>>

Who said this?

MorphOS team and AROS team co-operated in the past in the making of DOS commands for MorphOS system.

They also co-operated in porting of first batch of funcions by Linux GTK environment into Amiga MUI.

So what?

AROS is an opportunity.

It exists AROS, it exists AmigaOS, it exists MorphOS.

This will prove that Amiga platform is alive and capable to generate modern heirs.

Any of these OS is a bonus opportunity for the future. Time will see.

>>>>>
But no, they're apparently somehow convinced that a proprietary OS running on some proprietary hardware, using a processor not even used by any major desktop platform anymore (good luck finding desktop grade power pc processors and related components guys) is the way to go.
>>>>>

>>>>
Actually they are only a handful, and divided and fighting each other, probably some kind of strange contest to figure out which of pegasos/morphos or a1/amigaos is the most irrelevant and doomed. I fail to see how they can expect to accomplish any of those pipe dreams in those conditions.
>>>>>

>>>>
And anyway, as far as going nowhere, I don't think that an half-assed OS missing a lot of common standard facilities, libraries and software (I'm speaking about open source stuff and how almost impossible it is to port any non-trivial application for the few developpers remaining on the platform) and running only on a non-existant platform running with a processor that has been retired from the desktop market is much of anywhere either.
>>>>>

Just sit politely in silence and check for our progresses.

These are slow but steady, and a lots of features and facilities just arrived recently into Amiga related world.

Just check Amiga files repositories, see the new programs, and the new utilities and keep monitoring our progress.

Then if you have some whinings or complains please tell us what is wrong BUT POLITELY and we will answer to you politely.

>>>>>
a non-existant platform running with a processor that has been retired from the desktop market is much of anywhere either.
>>>>>

Again you don't undestand the fact that there is no processor retired from desktop market.

Your assumption is not logical.

Because even if Amiga is the only desktop solution for PowerPC into the market...

...THEN...

...Is the Amiga itself which keeps PowerPC into the desktop market.

Elementary Watson, elementary!

It was simple. And you were free to had spotted the solution, but instead you didn't.

Sincerely,

Raffaele

Reply Score: 1

"Closed" hw, x86
by Seehund on Mon 27th Mar 2006 18:21 UTC
Seehund
Member since:
2005-10-30

"The major problem here is that it would introduce a new problem for Amiga OS4: hardware support. It would have to start where all really alternative operating systems have started: with extremely poor hardware support. This is exactly what they are trying to avoid by going with closed hardware."

Which is a nonsense argument from "their" side. A hardware compatibility list serves the same purpose. Inventing a restricted pseudo-market achieves nothing positive. Neither AInc nor Hyperion have any influence on the hardware market. They don't design, specify or in any other way control any hardware.

AmigaOS needs hardware.
Hardware and hardware vendors do not need AmigaOS.

Hey AInc, would you f-ing adapt to reality already?

"That is not the only problem. Another problem is that going the x86 route means you suddenly have a lot more competition: Linux, BSD, Zeta/Haiku, and maybe even SkyOS and Syllable. And last but not least, it would introduce the concept of piracy to Amiga OS4, depriving Hyperion of possible sales."

Another nonsense argument of "theirs".
Running on PPC, or "closed" PPC hardware, does not magically create a fairy-tale reality where they're shielded from competition. The people who are choosing between AmigaOS and e.g. Linux will pick the best and cheapest option. Let's say that AmigaOS and Linux were equally attractive. Then the parameters left to ponder would be hardware. Price, performance, compatibility, possibility to run several OSes, et c. "Protection by PPC" doesn't exist, it only means losing to the competition.

The "anti piracy" excuse for the compulsory hardware licensing scheme was just that, a transparent, illogical and quite offensive excuse. Piracy will always exist, only in this case the paying customers are worse off than the pirates, while AmigaOS is "protected from piracy" by limiting actual OS sales! It's total insanity.

Reply Score: 1

Where is Mike Bouma?
by jack_perry on Mon 27th Mar 2006 19:06 UTC
jack_perry
Member since:
2005-07-06

It used to be that Mike Bouma did all the news about Amiga on this website. He was one of the founders of AmigaWorld.net because (as I recall it) amiga.org had issues (sanity may not have been one of them, not sure). Now I read that AmigaWorld.net is nutty (I abandoned it some time ago), and amiga.org is sane by comparison, but Mike Bouma hasn't commented at all... the world has truly changed.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Where is Mike Bouma?
by nicholas on Mon 27th Mar 2006 19:18 UTC in reply to "Where is Mike Bouma?"
nicholas Member since:
2005-07-07

All the nutjobs had a mass exodus from amiga.org to amigaworld.net about 3 years ago becuase their paranoid delusions were not tolerated and we saner members laughed at them continuously.

Recently a few of the nutjobs have returned to amiga.org unfortunately.

Amiga.org is still the best amiga related forum though, and the old timers are knowledgable and helpful.

The average aw.net member isn't technically minded.

Reply Score: 0

v RE: Where is Mike Bouma?
by Seehund on Mon 27th Mar 2006 20:03 UTC in reply to "Where is Mike Bouma?"
v RE[2]: Where is Mike Bouma?
by Redhouse on Mon 27th Mar 2006 21:40 UTC in reply to "RE: Where is Mike Bouma?"
Pathetic.
by elwood on Tue 28th Mar 2006 08:17 UTC
elwood
Member since:
2006-02-09

Hi,

> Amiga OS4 may have ...
> let me confess that I have little to no experience with the Amiga ...
> I might overlook important things ...
> I am not knowledgeable enough ...

When you don't know what you're talking about, just dont talk !

Pathetic ;)

Reply Score: 1

Where is Mike Bouma?
by Mike Bouma on Tue 28th Mar 2006 08:23 UTC
Mike Bouma
Member since:
2005-07-06

Hello Mr Perry, yes I am still alive but didn't have much time for my hobby due to more important things getting into the way.

No I wasn't the founder of AmigaWorld.net, but at some point I wanted to buy Amiga.org but couldn't agree on the website's value with the owner. So instead I joined AW.net as AO had mostly become a commercial outlet for a rival company (for instance employing the website owner, seemingly pushing an alternative to Amigas through people's throats). Regardless people have repeatably expressed their regrets, so I don't understand why people have to continue to drag on about this.

AW.net has mostly been focussed at helping with and informing people about AmigaOS4, and IMO we did a good job at that. Thousands of user questions have been addressed by the people with the required knowhow. I wouldn't call this insanity (IMO people like you take computing hobbies far too seriously..), but rather people being enthusiastic about their hobbies/interests. IMO having a hobby you're not actually enthusiastic about is rather stupid...

Reply Score: 1

RE: Where is Mike Bouma?
by jack_perry on Tue 28th Mar 2006 14:33 UTC in reply to "Where is Mike Bouma?"
jack_perry Member since:
2005-07-06

I am still alive but didn't have much time for my hobby due to more important things getting into the way.

That's more or less my situation, too: more important things getting in the way. I didn't mean to be snarky; I was genuinely wondering where your comments were.

Reply Score: 1

v RE: Where is Mike Bouma?
by Seehund on Tue 28th Mar 2006 15:13 UTC in reply to "Where is Mike Bouma?"
RE: @Thom:
by Mike Bouma on Tue 28th Mar 2006 08:54 UTC
Mike Bouma
Member since:
2005-07-06

@ Thom_Holwerda

> It might be custom at AW to just spout without
> thinking

Being offensive with generalizations will not make any friends... You have your opinion on the Amiga situation just like anyone else. In fact the things you wrote within your editorial have been discussed to great depths at AmigaWorld repeatably in the past well.

IMO every option has been given good thought at AW, with lots of *different* opinions and perspectives being shared. Personally I believe if you had read all of Hyperion's feedback this would have been an excellent background resource for your article.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Where is Mike Bouma?
by Mike Bouma on Tue 28th Mar 2006 17:24 UTC
Mike Bouma
Member since:
2005-07-06

> Amiga.org has NEVER been about selling anything, or
> pushing ANYTHING down anyone's throat

No for a while AO was all about MOS/Peg and BBRV and anything AmigaOS4 related was attacked by Moobunny regulars moving onto the website. IMO there was a need for a place on the internet which was relatively calm to talk about AmigaOS4 and other Amiga projects, similar like many of the same people who contineously attacked these projects were already doing on MorphOS dedicated websites, with regard to MorphOS of course.

> unlike for
> example... er... aw.net!

Aw.net meant there was finally a good alternative to AO for people mainly interested in the AmigaOS4 project who weren't interested in the endless fighting.

IMO choice is good.

> Grow up.

You got no better things to do?

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Where is Mike Bouma?
by d-tritus on Wed 29th Mar 2006 01:35 UTC in reply to "RE: Where is Mike Bouma?"
d-tritus Member since:
2006-03-28

No for a while AO was all about MOS/Peg and BBRV and anything AmigaOS4 related was attacked by Moobunny regulars moving onto the website. IMO there was a need for a place on the internet which was relatively calm to talk about AmigaOS4 and other Amiga projects, similar like many of the same people who contineously attacked these projects were already doing on MorphOS dedicated websites, with regard to MorphOS of course.

That's totally insane. You're rambling. I hope that deep down you're secretly ashamed of these ridiculous conspiratory lies you spout here. If you're not I advise you to seek help from a psychiatric professional. A normal person usually can't warp reality the way you just did and keep a straight face. Thank god I left the Amiga scene a couple of years back if all that's left of it are nutjobs who listen to people like you. I remember you tried to sell the AmigaInc scams and FUD and paranoia not only in your own loony bin aw.net but even here on OSNews, but I thought you had the common decency to have crawled back under your rock since then.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Where is Mike Bouma?
by Mike Bouma on Wed 29th Mar 2006 07:37 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Where is Mike Bouma?"
Mike Bouma Member since:
2005-07-06

> That's totally insane. You're rambling.

Maybe you weren't following the Amiga community back then, so you really don't know. But indeed did a few vocal individuals ruin the experience for a large group of people and nothing was done about this for quite a while due to other interests.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Where is Mike Bouma?
by Mike Bouma on Wed 29th Mar 2006 07:54 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Where is Mike Bouma?"
Mike Bouma Member since:
2005-07-06

Oh and besides this has been acknowledged by the website owner and he showed his regrets, so there's no need for you or anyone to change history.

IMO enough water has passed the bridge and it's time for people to quit bringing up the past so much, especially faked interpretations of it. AmigaWorld.net got popular due to its reasons, but there's no need to make up conspiracy theories about it, nobody held a gun towards anyone's face to join the website. It was a totally new *alternative* compared to what was already available. The website had to establish itself in an environment with already well established players. From such a perspective the website did rather well.

Reply Score: 1

Inaccuracies and some comments...
by Ferry on Wed 29th Mar 2006 00:25 UTC
Ferry
Member since:
2006-01-02

First of all, I just can't believe some of the comments I've seen here coming from members of the Amiga community, speaking bad about ALL AW members, even more when one can find your comments on that site as well. If some you don't agree with some of them or you have personal issues with some, you cannot take it as a whole, that's not fair.

Second, that article has some inaccuracies that would have been easily solved if the author had read some of the statements made by Hyperion representatives in various AW threads: AFAIA, they don't have the power to make the decision to port OS4 to watever the platform, Amiga. Inc. has, due to its licensing scheme, so it's not fair to blame Hyperion on something they don't control.

And, third, no, things like "I'm not sure...", "I don't have the experience...", etc., don't make a good journalist. Facts do.

Saluditos,

Ferrán.

Reply Score: 2