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Windows is still very strong, a new version just came out... May be he knows something that we don't, but right now it looks like he has a very good resume

Edited 2007-02-01 01:43

Windows is still very strong,

If Windows were forced to compete on its own merits it would be a dismal failure. PC operating systems are a one party state.

a new version just came out...

Yeah, and not only does nobody care, but also "Windows Live" is being "hurt by weak branding".

If Windows were forced to compete on its own merits it would be a dismal failure. PC operating systems are a one party state.

It does compete and given that the alternatives have terrible hardware support, and there is a complete dearth of application support on non-Microsoft platforms like Linux, is there any wonder for Microsoft's monopoly.

People will start moving once they can run the same applications they have now, but in native linux form, on Linux; until that day, people will be forced to run Windows because of the ability to run the applications they like rather than it being anything to do with any so-called love of the Windows operating system.

Yeah, and not only does nobody care, but also "Windows Live" is being "hurt by weak branding".

How about a better and more to the point explaination; Windows Live sucks - plain and simple; Microsoft left it too late to deliver their services online, their Live content is too American focused - clue to Microsoft, the world doesn't revolve around the US of A, no matter how ignorant the general populace at Microsoft headquarters maybe.

Add that to the fact that Google provides a much better experience than what Microsoft can provide; is there any surprised? Google's search is more accurate and faster, their email service is snappy and not loaded with tonnes of ads and crap.

Something Microsoft fails to realise is just that, people want to use the service; if they keep pissing the end user off with constant barrage of crap from advertisements and requesting 'feedback', the end user will simply give up and go to the superior provider; and given how easy it is to move from one provider to another, its going to be difficult to lock people in.

Edited 2007-02-01 11:01

It does compete and given that the alternatives have terrible hardware support,

MOST alternatives have worse hardware support than Windows. Gee, I wonder whose fault that is.

and there is a complete dearth of application support on non-Microsoft platforms like Linux,

Eh, what?

is there any wonder for Microsoft's monopoly.

I agree, Microsoft's monopoly is completely explicable, but for completely different reasons than you would like to pretend. For example, even if NO other operating system had ANY hardware support at all, I am still PERFECTLY within my rights to have computers I buy supplied without an operating system so that I can install any I wish - but just try telling that to PC vendors.

People will start moving once they can run the same applications they have now, but in native linux form, on Linux; until that day, people will be forced to run Windows because of the ability to run the applications they like rather than it being anything to do with any so-called love of the Windows operating system.

Despite your contention to the contrary, there are now more areas than ever where users of other platforms can opt for similar and compatible applications, and that trend will most likely only continue. Whatever you think of Scribus, for example, it's one area I did not expect to see addressed by FOSS programs for quite a while yet. (And there are other, proprietary, alternatives). However, in the interim it might be a good idea for more Linux distributors to start shipping CrossOver Office.

How about a better and more to the point explaination; Windows Live sucks - plain and simple; Microsoft left it too late to deliver their services online, their Live content is too American focused - clue to Microsoft, the world doesn't revolve around the US of A, no matter how ignorant the general populace at Microsoft headquarters maybe.

Microsoft have shown themselves perfectly capable of shipping bucketloads of an excrescence with impunity - I refer not only to WindowsME, which I know only by reputation, but to Windows98 also. It's not quality of the product that matters when people buy operating systems, it's quality of marketing.

However, except for the points in this post, I agree, mostly.

MOST alternatives have worse hardware support than Windows. Gee, I wonder whose fault that is.

The fault lies with the Linux programmers and the Linux distribution companies who refuse or simply too lazy to talk to hardware companies to get hardware support improved.

Eh, what?

Dearth - shortage, commonly used in the context of food.

There is a shortage, apart from some 'compatibility' and 'emulation' applications, by enlarge, there is no proprietary third party network; why haven't Novell and Red Hat done anything to encourage third parties to release desktop software for Linux? why don't these organisations invest money into the respective companies as to pay for the porting of those applications?

I agree, Microsoft's monopoly is completely explicable, but for completely different reasons than you would like to pretend. For example, even if NO other operating system had ANY hardware support at all, I am still PERFECTLY within my rights to have computers I buy supplied without an operating system so that I can install any I wish - but just try telling that to PC vendors.

You can do it right now; go down to your local computer assembly place and purchase one; white box manufacturers make up over 50% of the computers sold globally, they're hardly a weird thing.

Despite your contention to the contrary, there are now more areas than ever where users of other platforms can opt for similar and compatible applications, and that trend will most likely only continue. Whatever you think of Scribus, for example, it's one area I did not expect to see addressed by FOSS programs for quite a while yet. (And there are other, proprietary, alternatives). However, in the interim it might be a good idea for more Linux distributors to start shipping CrossOver Office.

Ok, we'll rely on Crossover - why don't I see the big distributors work with Crossover and third parties to add to wine as to allow greater compatibility between Windows applications and wine? there seems to be alot of things which the linux distributors fail to do - simply sitting on the side lines *hoping* for a company to port to Linux isn't a viable long term stratergy.

As for Scribus; great tool, and what I think they should do is start offering a 'add on pack' which includes an array of templates and clipart for a nominal fee - the money acquired from those sales could fund the project itself.

Microsoft have shown themselves perfectly capable of shipping bucketloads of an excrescence with impunity - I refer not only to WindowsME, which I know only by reputation, but to Windows98 also. It's not quality of the product that matters when people buy operating systems, it's quality of marketing.

Hence the reason I threw out the whole 'branding' junk which Microsoft threw around; the net is a whole new ball game and Microsoft doesn't quite no how to approach it; they'll eventually get there with a viable product, but I don't seem them being a major player.

Microsoft isn't going go away but I do think that their future growth will be stagnating if they don't do something about the fundamental problem with their business model - sure, people will point to the $50billion as proof that 'all is good' - a more recently example would be sun who had $9billion at one stage; time can creap up on those companies who are unprepared.

The fault lies with the Linux programmers and the Linux distribution companies who refuse or simply too lazy to talk to hardware companies to get hardware support improved.

In your dreams.

Dearth - shortage, commonly used in the context of food.

I know what 'dearth' means. The difficulty with you is not understanding your middle-school vocabulary, it's with figuring out what planet you're observing when you make these bananas claims.

There is a shortage, apart from some 'compatibility' and 'emulation' applications, by enlarge, there is no proprietary third party network; why haven't Novell and Red Hat done anything to encourage third parties to release desktop software for Linux? why don't these organisations invest money into the respective companies as to pay for the porting of those applications?

How do you know they haven't, O Omniscient One? What if they refuse (or are paid off by Microsoft, like Corel)? It takes two to Tango.

You can do it right now; go down to your local computer assembly place and purchase one; white box manufacturers make up over 50% of the computers sold globally, they're hardly a weird thing.

I seriously question your claim that over 50% of computers sold to the public are DIY jobs. I would also seriously question any claim you might make that (a) it's easy to get a laptop supplied without Windows or (b) a significant proportion of those are DIY jobs.

Ok, we'll rely on Crossover - why don't I see the big distributors work with Crossover and third parties to add to wine as to allow greater compatibility between Windows applications and wine? there seems to be alot of things which the linux distributors fail to do - simply sitting on the side lines *hoping* for a company to port to Linux isn't a viable long term stratergy.

It would be nice if, for once, one of you Windows-worshipping Linux-doubting Thomases would actually specify at least one of these nebulous "problems" with Linux.

Do you actually know what is involved with creating software? Is it hard to understand that "the problems with Wine" are because Windows is closed source with (allegedly) secret API's and therefore there is NO information "out in the wild" which would help to alleviate these problems. If Wine isn't perfect, it's amazing it works as well as it does.


As for Scribus; great tool, and what I think they should do is start offering a 'add on pack' which includes an array of templates and clipart for a nominal fee - the money acquired from those sales could fund the project itself.

Great! Let's turn one of the foremost free software packages into a carrot for the stick of proprietary software!!!

Don't you people actually understand that FOSS users will PAY for software that is worth their time WITHOUT all your proprietary penis extensions?

In your dreams.

Did I hit a raw nerve? whilst you're whining there, why don't you address the terrible multi-tasking in regards to my wireless connection screeching to a halt when ripping a music cd.

I know what 'dearth' means. The difficulty with you is not understanding your middle-school vocabulary, it's with figuring out what planet you're observing when you make these bananas claims.

So instead of addressing the issue at hand, you verbally abuse me.

How do you know they haven't, O Omniscient One? What if they refuse (or are paid off by Microsoft, like Corel)? It takes two to Tango.

They've already said that they're not going to negotiate with companies; Sun has already said that as well, they'd sooner sit on a pile of money than actively going out and getting third parties on board.

I seriously question your claim that over 50% of computers sold to the public are DIY jobs. I would also seriously question any claim you might make that (a) it's easy to get a laptop supplied without Windows or (b) a significant proportion of those are DIY jobs.

Who said "DIY jobs"? they're local computer stores, non-multinationals; in New Zealand we have 100s of these little stores selling assembled computers with their own logo's attached to the box.

Laptops, you can actually buy a laptop kit, IIRC ASUS sell it along with an LCD screen; the assembler can choose the board from ASUS and customise the components like hard disk and memory - then attach their own brand to the machine.

It would be nice if, for once, one of you Windows-worshipping Linux-doubting Thomases would actually specify at least one of these nebulous "problems" with Linux.

Where is Creative Suite, where is MYOB, where is Quicken, where is a Microsoft Office equal - not equivilant, but EQUAL in features.

Oh, and btw I'm posting to you on my ubuntu laptop.

Do you actually know what is involved with creating software? Is it hard to understand that "the problems with Wine" are because Windows is closed source with (allegedly) secret API's and therefore there is NO information "out in the wild" which would help to alleviate these problems. If Wine isn't perfect, it's amazing it works as well as it does.

Bull; Adobe could work with Wine, and when there is an error Adobe can say, "hey, there is a problem with how you've implemented that particular API; the way which we've used it in our application, it expects zyx result when executed".

Adobe know how they've used a particular API call, Wine need to know how they used that particular API in their application, so why don't the two team up and ensure the API is implemented so that Adobe applications work flawlessly; replace Adobe with any other company if you want.

Great! Let's turn one of the foremost free software packages into a carrot for the stick of proprietary software!!!

Pardon? selling clipart, fonts and templates to fundraise money to future development - you consider that evil and wrong? you consider the very idea of trying to bring in more money to improve a opensource project as a terrible move? I'd have to say, thats news to me, as an end user, I would have thought that more money for opensource applications could improve the said application for end users, but I guess I'm wrong.

Don't you people actually understand that FOSS users will PAY for software that is worth their time WITHOUT all your proprietary penis extensions?

Who said anything about 'penis extensions'? could you please refrain from that sort of immature rhetoric; the idea of selling clipart, fonts and template then the funds being used to further the development of the said project is what I would hardly call 'proprietary penis extensions'.

Edited 2007-02-02 01:10

If Windows were forced to compete

Yeah, if gravity didn't exist, you'd be able to fly, too. As if.

It's more like being proud of their accomplishments and leaving while making their signature mark instead of just fading away.

I thought Allchin announced his retirement plans before Gates did. Maybe I'm wrong, but this has been planned for a long time.

If you want a name and face to associate with the <understatement> problematic </understatement> Vista development cycle, this is the guy. He accomplished great things for Microsoft through much of his career, but Vista will tarnish his legacy.

You can almost understand Ballmer's chair-throwing habit when you consider what you would do if your legendary senior executive fails to deliver in such spectacular fashion.

Under Allchin, the MS Windows Group had traditionally thrived on a culture that resembles an academic colloquium. If you put enough grade A geniuses together, give them flexibility, and cultivate their creativity, then good things follow. The exponential complexity of the Windows product invalidated this approach, and Allchin didn't make the appropriate adjustments.

It seems like a he was an executive that the engineers trusted and respected, rather than the management-oriented kind that engineers tend to despise (but get the job done on time).

Under Allchin, the MS Windows Group had traditionally thrived on a culture that resembles an academic colloquium. If you put enough grade A geniuses together, give them flexibility, and cultivate their creativity, then good things follow.

Well regarding all microsoft products, I can say that they have not enough grade A geniuses ...

It seems like a he was an executive that the engineers trusted and respected, rather than the management-oriented kind that engineers tend to despise (but get the job done on time).

Spoken like a true Microsoft marketing manager. "It doesn't matter if it's crap, just GET IT DONE ON TIME!!!"

Rats leaving a sinking ship?

Yeah, poor Microsoft. They can barely meet payroll with that $50B in the bank... /sarcasm

Rats leaving a sinking ship?

Yeah, poor Microsoft. They can barely meet payroll with that $50B in the bank... /sarcasm

If you're a failing company then cash reserves can't help you, as DEC proved.

If you're a failing company then cash reserves can't help you, as DEC proved.

LOL! DEC never had $50B in the bank. That buys a huge numer of tech acquisitions. Even if MS never produces a single line of code from now on.

"No, I know Gates hasn't left yet; but he did announce his intention to leave before Allchin did"

Actually that's incorrect, Allchin announced his intention to retire back in September of '05 (and he said it would be the day that Vista launched, so this isn't any sort of surprise):

http://news.com.com/Allchin+legacy+seen+in+Windows/2100-1014_3-5875...

Which is quite a while before Gates did...Gates announced his retirement plans 9 months later:

http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/002278.html

I stand corrected. Thanks.

Rats leaving a sinking ship?

How so? what evidence do you have to prove that Achlin left for reasons other than to persue other endevours?

Right now, I am in transistion between jobs, not because of 'the ship is sinking' but because I want a new challenge - maybe this is the case for Allchin; or better yet, maybe he has experienced burn out, no longer has the same passion for the job, and might persue a path outside IT - you do realise that what someone does as a job and what their interests are, can be completely different things.

You're right - the fact that someone leaves his job is not necessarily an indication that his former employer is in trouble.

However, on the back of:

(a) The trouble they had getting Vista out;

(b) The lukewarm reception Vista is getting;

(c) The almost complete lack of brand recognition behind "Windows Live";

(d) The fact that alternatives are rightly beginning to be recognised by independent analysts as worthy competition (better late than never);

(e) The fact that some of Microsoft's initiatives (such as locking security companies out of the kernel, and the adoption of its proprietary alternative to the hopefully-soon-to-be-open PDF format) are being attacked by the very companies who live off the Windows ecosystem;

(f) The fact that one of new Microsoft's top executives has been recruited from a company way outside of the technology field;

(g) The fact that all the showboating about Linux procurements for Microsoft are merely extensions of preexisting agreements OR have been (coincidentally, I'm sure) arranged between Microsoft and said company in (f);

(h) The fact that Gates is also leaving, having put in charge a guy who seems to be widely regarded as a maverick (to put it kindly);

...it all looks a bit suspicious.

What I don't understand is why Apple didn't send him one for free. Wouldn't that be good for PR?

you are right, It would have been a great good-bye present

Well, I think he leaves BECAUSE he wants a mac

zing.
plus one for you sir.

"Rats leaving a sinking ship? "

Just wait until OSnews gets the article up "Vista sales better than expected" , you know it's coming.

Of course they're "better than expected" - try getting a new computer without any variety of f-cking Windows on it.

If Vista sales are better than expected, then someone better fire their fortune teller.

Vista sales should be as predictable as the rising of the sun.

Microsoft is at the top of their game, failure to realize this just plain stupid. Remember I said "their" game. Not the new games they are getting into (for that there's plenty of work to be done).

And a pretty pathetic game they play too. It's like elections in a dictatorship - you KNOW the incumbent is going to win 'cause no-one else can even stand. And then the results come in and supposedly 95.9% of the population voted for him. Hahah.

"Rats leaving a sinking ship?"

This statement is exactly why I don't bother coming to this forum often.

This forum reeks of people who are misinformed, arrogant for nothing, and contantly spreading FUD.

It's not that I am so pro-microsoft, but because a lot of people on here just post non-sense and pure fantasy.

FYI, even Gates is worried that Microsoft is turning into the next DEC.

The only fantasies around here are that Windows competes on its own merits and that people actually choose it.

FYI, even Gates is worried that Microsoft is turning into the next DEC.

The only fantasies around here are that Windows competes on its own merits and that people actually choose it.

Actually, he isn't worried; Gates is gone; what Balmer who is the CEO is worried about is Microsoft becoming two reliant on their two chief products for the majority of their profit and revenue - hence the reason they've branched out to other areas like XBox, Zune and online services.

The XBox360 has been a special case though; they've got a good leg up compared to PS3 and its numerous problems that its had, from release to crappy firmware updates.

The Zune is going to be an interesting case study given that they're trying to enter a market, that quite frankly, has already been won; now unless Apple does something *really* stupid in the future, its going to be like pushing shit up a hill given the amount of embeddedness iPod has in today's popular culture; to over turn it would require a miracle, luck and some stupid decisions on Apple's part.

On the service front, Microsoft still doesn't get it; they assume that branding 'does it all' - their services aren't popular because they suck; no, I'm not going to go into the subtle marketing gobblygoop which Microsoft executives spew; having experimented with MSN, and the new encarnation, Live! for a few months, I still keep coming back to using GMail/Google for all my needs.

What is going to kill them in the future is the failure of the new markets they enter into; thats what will cost them, and given the push which Microsoft is under to grow at, what I would consider, unsustainable rates of growth, its going to be a rocky road for investers given their cluelessness to the fact that the markets Microsoft dominates are mature, and little growth will come from them anytime soon.

Edited 2007-02-01 11:04

What's the problem, take it with some humor!