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#7: The ashtrays are now optional
In prior versions of Windows Server, a lot of applications came installed by default. No one ever uninstalled them because they did not cause any harm, even if you didn't use them or installed an alternative. Now, even the "throwaway" applications, like Windows Backup, are not installed by default. After installation, you need to add "features" to get the full Windows Server suite of applications. This can be frustrating if you are in a hurry, but the reduced clutter and resource overhead are worth it
Part of the frustration with earlier versions of server were that there were way too many things installed by default... but now the complaint is that Server 2008 is missing too many features during the installation? I like the stripped down version much better.
people will always complain: if you give X, they want Y and if you give Y they want X. Edited 2008-09-16 18:11 UTC
I would much rather build up than peel off unneeded programs that could break others. This is very welcome in my book.
I will take a minimal instalation that i can add in the features after the fact, over a bloated standard install any day of the week. 2008 was a great release, i hope MS keeps that aproach.
I'm considering to use "Windows Workstation 2008". It supports directx 10, so you can play te latest games, without the vista bloat.
It's not that problem free as many think and one need to adjust OS a little bit. Still at the end it's worth the efforts
/Happy user of Windows Workstation 2008
...you have to pay a super-premium and go out of your way to get a "server" version of a Windows operating system, just to have less bloat and annoyances, with better performance? As if their prices for their crappy "desktop" versions I've had to put up with for years aren't bad enough.
I always heard good things about the various Windows Server releases, yet I never did (and never will) use it if it requires searching Amazon for a piece of software that costs over a thousand dollars... just to run my machine which, chances are, already includes a *paid* license for Windows.
Pirating? No thanks, I'd rather not support this ripoff company *at all*. No "+1" from me to add to their ridiculously high "number of users" count, whether it's paid for or illegally obtained.
I agree 110% on this point. Hopefully MS gets the point and strips the bloat out of their desktop versions as well... but then again I'm probably dreaming if I think that will ever happen after Vista. Honestly, win2k was the only desktop version of Windows that was pretty free of bloat and I actually enjoyed using. It wasn't intended as a mainstream desktop OS by MS though, it was targeted at corporate workstations (not that it really matters, but that's why most home PCs didn't get 2k unless you went out and got it yourself like I did). They stuck most home users with Windows ME which was the worst of the windows 9x series by far. My ideal windows would be an updated version of 2k--lean and mean and supporting all the latest apps. But I'm not going to pay over a grand for that, thanks, seeing as how OS X does everything I need it to. It's got a bit of bloat, but compare OS X to Vista in the bloat department and there's no contest. And I have OpenBSD for a good server os.
edit: Corrected my statement about win2k a bit. Edited 2008-09-16 20:18 UTC
You can legally use Server 2008 for 240days as trial...
And I tend to reinstall my main OS every 5-6months anyway, so it's a good deal imho
P.S. Doing so is much better than pirating...
Why in the world do you reinstall that often? I'm sitting here on a 7-8 year old windows 2k install. I just reinstalled my home PC with XP Pro (VLK, weee) but that was because I just completely rebuilt it from the motherboard up.
I think it's just a habit of mine from the win95/98 days
To repeat myself....
Vista and 2k8 are the same os, the only difference is that one comes super stripped down, and the other doesn't. 2k8 with everything installed and ready to use IS what vista is.
How about being able to deselect stuff during the OS install process?
Don't feel like tinkering? Just pick "typical install" in the menu and get the whole package.
But then again I guess that would render null the point of selling so many different versions.
Vista and Win2k8 are virtually the same thing, the only thing missing is media center and sharing from WMP, upnp (it's there, but disabled), and windows search.
These are all features that customers want. If Windows wasn't able to stream media to the xbox or htpc's, customers wouldn't be too happy. Windows search is pretty handy, especially with a terabyte to search.
Remember, one persons bloat is another persons features.
Well, it's true. Vista may not be the best OS that MS ever put out, but it isn't the major disaster that everybody goes on about. I remember when XP came out, it was the exact same people, saying the exact same things.
What is really getting old is the amount of hyperbole surrounding Vista. It's not my main OS, but I have it running as a media center, and it works pretty good. 2G of ram, half decent video card(an ATI 9200 will do) and it works well. There is things I like about it, and things I don't.
It takes much less work to get Vista functioning than the equivalent Debian system. Ubuntu is getting close, but people are starting to complain about how bloated Ubuntu is, how it's slow, even the color scheme. Sound familiar?
It's the same with anything, I really like Debian, but I wouldn't give my mother a system with it installed. But the woman thinks Vista kicks ass.
What we need to remember is that Vista is not really aimed at us, but normal people, with lives.
Sorry for the long post, but i don't agree with much of what you said for the following reasons:
[p] Because at the time XP ws too bloated for the hardware around. However 7 years later and now it feels lean on our modern hardware.
It's the same with Vista, people are complaining that you shouldn't need top end machines for running just the OS. However in 7 years time Vista might well feel more lean.
It's all about the best software for our current hardware and at the moment most peoples hardware isn't good enough for Vista - hense the complaining.
oh, come on, it's a year and a half since Vista's launch. Most computers these days can run Vista, and if you can't run it on your 600 with 512M of Ram, then you're right, Vista is not for you. Most any computer from 2004 on can run Vista just fine. Ram is so cheap that if you have to double it, you're out what? 40 bucks? Big deal. Same with the video card, any $50 video card can run Aero just fine, so you're cost to bring a circa 2004 system up to spec to run Vista? 90 bucks or so. I'm running it on an XP 2800+ with 1G of ram, it runs just fine. I bought that MB and chip in 2003. It is not a beefy modern system.
Rubbish - absolute, unfounded rubbish. I'll explain:
Windows 2008 carries on the tradition of a solid Windows server. Ive been setting it up for testing on some pretty low spec'd pc's (P4 2.4GHZ) and it's been really good. There is noticeable improvements to the way Win2008 handles it's resources such as Memory, HDD's and Network.
I will agree on the point RE:64bit. This really is annoying, i know that recoding apps and servers is not something to be done lightly, but we need to embrace 64bit. We now stream and watch larger movies (HD) we view larger photo's and usually we do this all at the same time. We are gonna want more and more from our computers, PC's are being spec'd with 2GB and 4GB RAM. Microsoft should have started the push to 64bit earlier.
Sorry to turn this into a 64bit rant, but i find it incredible that Windows client in 64bit format is more of an afterthought with Microsoft, they should be beating the drum, they should be making sure all their apps are 64bit, showing the rest of the Windows eco-system the way forward. It's amazing to think that after all this time Adobe are finally getting around to releasing a 64bit version of Photoshop!! Why is this so late, image's are massive the hardware is there but the software is restricted.
The server team understand the importance of 64bit and we are finally starting to see a push into it with SQL Server and Exchange, however i can't believe that ISA is not 64bit or at least 64bit compatible.
I just hope the shine of Windows 2008 Server somehow rubs off on the Client team and they release a slim, fast solid client aswell as server.
What blows my mind is that Studio is still a 32 bit app.
I don't know that it would make a huge difference though. They really pushed IPv6, and it didn't really help much (or hasn't yet, at any rate), and the whole TCP Window auto-tuning RFC implementation ended up just being a headache as most home routers dont support it.
heh, low spec'ed = p4 2.4 and up...
/me waves his dual P3-600 cane at you
It's not just Microsoft, the entire Windows ecosystem, including the hardware vendors and the free software vendors(wine,reactos and general foss with windows builds) has been ignoring 64-bits for years.
It will be fun when Microsoft and a few selected partners make the move all at once and start supporting only 64-bit versions. The customers will be all already running x64-capable systems so the suggested solution for compatibility problems will be to upgrade to 64 bits.
This day is actually very close, just two hardware generations away at most. As soon as 4GB of RAM is lower end.
A server OS still limited to two terminals, that is a surprise. Perhaps not coming from microsoft.
And no ssh out of the box.
ALso I am not that sure about performance gains. It is certainly more snappy without all those bells and jingles that Vista ships with. I run Vista (with everything switched off) side by side in a virtual machine on Linux and for some of my programmes (mostly IDEs like Delphi and a C# environment) inside the Windows guest it really doesn't make that much of a difference. But if I had to choose I would pick w2k8 - it's more much more pleasant to work on.
I read this and went "huh?". Vista has *not* been that bad, most of the IT media should be bloody well shot for fear mongering and slander of product. Sure, if Vista had been crap, go for it, bash it, but it's far from it. Sure, it has some issues, but hey, do any of you guys remember XP pre SP1 and what a dog it was? In fact, it was far WORSE than Vista pre SP1 imho.
The majority of issues with Vista are driver, and that is NOT, and NEVER was, Microsoft's fault. Those issues belong to damn well lazy a$$ hardware manufacturers.
His argument on 64 bit is weak - that's again, not Microsoft's fault (unless it's their software of course), but 3rd party software vendors.
I've heard very good things about Server 2008, if you're running 2003 it's probably not worth updating, but server 2000 I'd say go for it. Of course, the old adage "if it ain't broke..." does apply I guess.
I find his comments about NT4 odd - since it's long since been OUT of support etc. Anyone using NT 4 in a production system should be bloody well shot at Martin place at dawn!!!
To be fair, Microsoft has been a lot more aggressive in pushing 64-bit clean software on particular servers than on the client. I was quite surprised that any server-side software currently released by Microsoft does not run on 64-bit WS08. Those teams in Microsoft should fix their code or be "bloody well shot," to borrow your phrase.
Although I'm not s big Vista fan, I do agree with you and a number of the people on here that its not as bad as its painted. For the record I don't like it and don't use it but I can say the same about XP, Its really more I'm not productive or comfortable in the Windows Environment.
That being said, I think the strong Vista hate is more a product of there being better options then there where in 2001. At the time Linux was still not near desktop ready and OSX was still in its infancy. we had just come off the mess known as Windows ME, and people needed something else and their was nothing but Windows XP that could do the job.
Today on the other hand, OSX is a fully functioning and rather impressive operating system, and Linux Distro's have come a long way in the desktop experience (I dare say its on par with Windows). My point is that now when people say they don't like Vista, they look around and see options and get excited, and this amplifies their Vista hatred I think.
OS X is done by a nasty monopolistic company that is really not very nice. I tend to avoid it based on principle alone. Hardware support is poor, although that's not necessarily Apple's fault, but 3rd party hardware vendors. 10.5 has had a massive amount of bugs, most of which haven't been addressed. In fact, there are many bugs from earlier releases that have not been addressed by Apple. Apples hardware is still very expensive (compare a macbook pro to a PC based equivalent laptop - it's several hundred dollars more expensive).
Look at the XPS M1530 - AU $2199, 300-400 cheaper than Apple's best effort. Better support, just as well made. Apple is ONLY doing well because of the iPod effect, and God knows why so many people are buying iPods. I call it the iPod lemmings - because someone else buys it, others do. They don't buy it for price/quality/features/performance, but simply buy it like little lemmings...brainless lemmings.
Linux is better than it was in 2001, but is still not desktop ready imho. Linux has potential, but unless a great many things are changed, it will never become mainstream. Dare I say, many of those using Linux are using it to avoid having to pay money to Microsoft, or to Apple for its hardware tax. I guarantee that the vast majority of those now using Ubuntu instead of Windows were previously pirating Windows. Well, that's my experience at least. We're seeing a dumbing down effect with Linux to cater for all these dumb ass ex Windows users, and it isn't pretty. Linux has a long, long, long way to go.
I'm gonna have to call BS on this.
First I agree Apple could do a better job on the security front (at least from a patch perspective, so calm down fanboys/girls), But they do make products that bundle rather well together. The people at least from what I have seen, that by Apple products are looking for the experience. What I mean by that is many I know have an Apple desktop, Laptop, Ipod, AppleTV and such and they enjoy the seamless integration they get with all the products combined. Granted there is an extra hardware tax, but that doesn't make their products bad.
As for the Linux front I would dare say you are just out and out wrong. I have helped a great number of people move to Ubuntu or other Distro's and not one of them did it due to cost, and not one of them had been pirating MS software. Most of the people that I know, or have helped move were looking for a better user experience, and for most they got it. Did some of the people move back to Windows sure, did some end up getting a Mac yeah, but I would say 80% were quite happy with their Linux experience.
Also do you avoid MS for being a Monopolistic company or is that just a convenient argument for fanboyism? Edited 2008-09-17 20:22 UTC
I'm not saying Microsoft isn't a monopolistic anti competitive company - it is. If you know my history, you will know that I have been damning of Microsoft in the past, and still are. For me, they make a better product. I like the open architecture of a PC. I like building my own PC. Screwing with a Mac is well...not fun (for the most part).
As to Linux - let's just say my experience is different. I work in IT support for a local ISP, and in 9 months, guess how many Linux users I've had - 2. Out of thousands and thousands of customers (I average 50-60 calls per day, do the maths). Everyone of them has had issues - one with an older serial modem that was not being detected by Linux at all, and the other with a serial modem that was detected, but would not create a PPP connection. Admittedly, he was using Fecora core 2 (he's on dialup and cannot download a 4gb file!). That reminds me that I promised to burn a copy of Fedora core 8 and send it his way, so thanks.
Linux is still over complex. Even Ubuntu. It is too easy to break, and too difficult to maintain over a long period of time. Whilst not Linux' fault directly, it's not the easiest of multimedia systems to set up. True, some setups have made it far easier (Ubuntu especially), but I would argue that their linking to sites to download packages for playing mp3s and DVDs is actually illegal. Don't get me wrong, I don't actually agree with the crap that Linux has to put up with regards to decss etc, but that's life, it isn't going to change and we have to deal with it.