Linked by Eugenia Loli on Fri 26th Nov 2004 20:03 UTC
Zeta Today yellowTAB announced that a service pack for Zeta Neo should be out sime time around the end of the month. Besides fixing unnamed bugs, this pack is also reported to improve PPP performance for both dial-up and xDSL users.
Order by: Score:
gzip
by Kian on Sat 27th Nov 2004 01:41 UTC

And you finally get gzip/gunzip back

I don't see how they 'forgot' gzip. I mean, unless they went to the 1.3 test releases, its been the same release since 1992 or so... they didn't even need to bother recompiling it, so how they lost the binary from the build I'll never know...

Then again, they 'forgot' to configure a loopback adapter in RC1, and for the RC1SP2 updater they forgot to make the script do everything it was meant to, and they made it so it rarely exited right. Some release they'll forget to put the right bootscripts in so you can run off HDD, I'll bet...

Zeta Final 1.0 has been released?
by Sandwich Boy on Sat 27th Nov 2004 03:19 UTC

I am more out of the scene than I thought. And that's hard to believe. Time for the BeDoper Fake Review...

RE: Zeta Final 1.0 has been released?
by bogomipz on Sat 27th Nov 2004 10:37 UTC

No, it's more like a way to cover up the fact that they still don't have a finishted product to show. I believe Neo is just a fancy name for RC4.

While development towards Zeta OS 1.0 advances at a steady pace, yellowTAB has decided to do an interim release called Zeta Neo, so that users can enjoy the many enhancements incorporated into the Zeta OS so far.

confusing
by Nikola Pizurica on Sat 27th Nov 2004 10:47 UTC

So, I'm totaly lost now with Yt and their product(s).
They released Zeta RC1, then SP for it, or was it 2?. then RC2, then released Neo, then SP for it... Maybe I missed something but this is total mess.
When will they start selling finished product, not some alpha-beta RCs? Maybe they should stop and check out their product before they ship it, not release SPs every month.
This is bad joke, IMHO.

v YellowTab...
by Max on Sat 27th Nov 2004 11:33 UTC
RE: confusing
by bogomipz on Sat 27th Nov 2004 11:39 UTC

I totally agree and am rather disappointed with yT's accomplishmets. To me, it seems like they've taken water over their heads by trying to do too much, like creating media players and what not. They should have focused on updating the core OS, IMO.

When you buy a pre-release of Zeta, you do get a license for the final product however. AFAIK, all you need to pay to get updates (to future RCs and the final release) is a small amount meant to cover the porto and costs of the CD/DVD and so on.

What if
by chalk on Sat 27th Nov 2004 12:14 UTC

What if YellowTab had called their "RC" release a development release or something other then RC. By calling it a RC release are they setting expectation that the product does not live up to.

What if yellowTab would have said... There are many people who are interested in our product. The product is not finished but we will release a development release to meet this demand. I wonder if this release approach would yeild less criticism.

chalk

@Nikola
by Kian on Sat 27th Nov 2004 13:04 UTC

RC1, then RC1SP1, RC1SP2, then RC2, then RC3, then RC4, which they called Neo to make it sound not like an RC, and now RC4SP1, which they call Neo SP1.

As yet there is no indication of when they'll sell a finished product.

say it - dont spray it
by Hatecraft on Sat 27th Nov 2004 13:54 UTC

I really appreciate YellowTabs efforts to keep BeOS somewhat updated with drivers and so on. Really. Its great.
I wouldnt discuss this post otherwise.

But I gotta agree with Nikolas post that they´re also doing a really good job confusing me with RCs and Neos and SPs.
Max is prolly right too, if they dont start acting a bit more professional they can start the countdown of their own exstinction.

Ive always thought an RC (Release Candidate) would be pretty much feature frozen and a pretty stable release and even sometime it could be the final if it turns out to be good enough. This is hardly the case with YT. One can easily
believe that YT is just trying to earn some extra cash by releasing all those updates and giving them all those fancy names which everytime makes you want to think THIS IS IT, now we´re getting there. But think again, we´re not.
Try to prioritize quality instead of quantity.

And please, throw away that new media player. its ugly (yes thats enough). YT should try to concentrate on new drivers, bugfixing and improving apps (like the new preference panel which is not totally bugfree). There is already good players around like VLC for Video which is getting better for every version and there is enough mp3 players too, which get the job done.


Can someone explain to me why they have to be all secret about coming bugfixes with the new NEO update? Is it because there is really not that many improvements over previous version? Or maybe they just dont know yet if
they will succeed to terminate all bugs that are targeted for the update?

Something else Im a bit worried about is the future of Yellowtab and ZETA. What Ive gathered YT doesnt have access to the sourcecode and that they are just building everyhing on top of it. What happens when they will need to improve more crucial parts of BeOS (like the kernel) to really keep up with new hardware and so on ? will that be a problem?
Maybe Ive got all this wrong now and that they really got access to the entire sourcecode. If thats the case just say so and I will stop here.

Anyone know if the supposedly 120GB hardrive limit fix will actually work with this update?

tnx, flaming is welcome.

@bogomipz
by helf on Sat 27th Nov 2004 13:58 UTC

They should have focused on updating the core OS, IMO.

Ever think this might be because they don't have the source code? </conspiracy> ;) )

Source Code
by Chris on Sat 27th Nov 2004 14:25 UTC

Maybe they have agreements to Palm to keep their knowledge of the source code a secret, so they can't say. It would seem odd to have such an agreement but stranger things have happened. Maybe they don't have it. Whatever.

"Christ, kid you´re a weirdo"
by Hatecraft on Sat 27th Nov 2004 14:40 UTC

Chris, what advantages could this possibly have do think? if any at all.

YT are strange. Seems to me they just dont want to tell the community they dont have access to the sourcecode, because that is an disavantage. They will prolly just keep adding parts from the Haiku project.

Something thats getting on my nervs is all those articles they post on their homepage, about awards they keep getting..innovation awards so on. For what? They haven´t even got a stable release out yet for god´s sake.
Starting to wonder if they´re awarding themselfes.

YellowTAB
by Guido on Sat 27th Nov 2004 15:30 UTC

I don't like YellowTAB very much and the progress they make is a joke compared with what Be, Inc. achieved.

Nevertheless, they seem to be extremely successful - they have sold several thousand copies of Zeta to corporate clients and plan to have 200.000 - 500.000 users at the end of 2005. They certainly make a lot more money by selling Zeta to corporate clients than by selling Zeta to Be enthusiasts. Don't ask me why these companies buy Zeta, I really can't understand that at all, but that's what happens. And that's exactly why they got this innovation award. It was an award for selling many copies in a short time after the product launch, it was not for technical excellence or something like that.

And if you want to sell an OS to corporate clients, you cannot say "it's an alpha" or "it's a developer version", or you won't sell anything.

So I think it's really understandable that YellowTAB chooses to name their developer releases "release candidates" and their very first beta release "Zeta Neo". The strange thing are those crazy German companies that actually buy Zeta Neo.

Corporate Clients?
by Kian on Sat 27th Nov 2004 15:46 UTC

What corporate clients? Most minor OS vendors start bouncing around like crazy when they make a big sale, shouting it everywhere they can. I doubt they have 20,000 to 50,000 users, yet alone 200,000 - I doubt BeOS even had 500,000 users at one time in its heydey, so Zeta certainly does not

Considering YT act as if certain markets don't exist - the UK and the US being the biggest ones, they certainly aren't picking up desktop users in those markets.

Back in 2000, every PC magazine in the UK carried BeOS R5 PE, and generally made some effort to report news on it. Recently enough even Computer Shopper UK had the BeOS version of VLC on the cover disc.

In its 12 months of existance, not one of them has mentioned Zeta. Ever. Shows an abject lack of marketing in my opinion.

I find one thing really remarkable...
by Kaya on Sat 27th Nov 2004 16:20 UTC

First, I have to tell you that when Yellowtab started their business, I really hoped that they would provide a better BeOS. Then Zeta came out, it wasn't the thing I had expected, but it was a way to legalize Dano for me, because I had many problems with the old netserver and I really needed Bone.

But then, to be honest - most of the things that are great about Zeta wasn't developed by Yellowtab. Most of the good things are either based on plain old Be code or on third party code (most of it is freeware). On the other hand, most of the stuff that Yellowtab has developed on their own seems to be rather buggy and not well designed - not everything but most of their own stuff.

So please tell me, all you believers out there who always tell me "it's only a release candidate, the final version will be better"... Yellowtab now fails for two or three years miserabely, what exactly makes you believe they have the know-how to do better for a final version of Zeta?

Dissapointed by YT,
Kaya

Source Code --- I doubt it.
by mmadia on Sat 27th Nov 2004 16:49 UTC

here's a quick list of fairly well-known bugs in R5. I realize that 5.1d0 may not have all of these bugs

2.00Ghz cpu limit IIRC it is caused by an incorrect casting in the kernel. eg, an uint32 was stored into a signed int32. sounds fairly easy enough to correct, especially since mmlr created a patch for R5 and 5.1d0. Ironically in a way, the the patch was based on work by a yT employee.

RAM limit Approx. 1gb for R5, 768mb for 5.1d0. This too was fixed as a patch to R5's and 5.1d0.

These two patches were done without access to the source code and by non-yT employees.

disk cache bug I'm not positive if this in 5.1d0. If the user has more than 128mb ram and the disk_cache_size is not limited to 16384, then the disk cache can grow so large that it KDL's the kernel.

Currently in R5 the work-around is to modify ~/config/settings/kernel/drivers/kernel and add "disk_cache_size 16384". If this bug is present in 5.1d0, the "fix" is the same.

These are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to bugs in 5.1d0 as it was obtained as a Be Inc.'s unfinished BETA. So ask yourself, if yT has the source, why don't they prove it by bug-squishing. It certainly would allow yT to toot their own horn and most likely help them to sell more copies of Zeta.

My bad
by Hatecraft on Sat 27th Nov 2004 16:51 UTC

Guido, tnx for correcting me. I guess I didnt have my facts straight.

Nevertheless, ZETA hasnt yet brought us anything innovative, maybe there would be more suitable to call it a SALES award or something else.

"plan to have 200.000 - 500.000 users at the end of 2005"
this is a wet dream of berntd´s. it will not happen.

"So I think it's really understandable that YellowTAB chooses to name their developer releases "release candidates" and their very first beta release "Zeta Neo".

Yes of course I can understand WHY they´re doing it, I just dont approve of it. If they´re gonna try to fool they´re own customers they could try to be a bit smoother.


and yes...What corporate clients?

Gee, what was your first clue?
by Bryan on Sat 27th Nov 2004 18:37 UTC

http://web.archive.org/web/20020114173448/http://www.yellowtab.com/

Yup. YT has been amatuer, egotistical, self-serving crap from day 1.

Big surprise? No.

Read the press release carefully. There's no mention of source-code access. Hint Hint Hint.

Furthermore...
by Bryan on Sat 27th Nov 2004 18:39 UTC

My father taught me a very important lesson that would serve YT quite well these days.

Don't shit where you eat.

RE: @bogomipz
by bogomipz on Sat 27th Nov 2004 18:52 UTC

>>They should have focused on updating the core OS, IMO.

>Ever think this might be because they don't have the source code? </conspiracy> ;) )

When I said core OS I didn't mean the kernel, using the word 'core' made that a bit unclear, I know. What I meant was that they should stick to writing drivers and translators (codecs), collecting and including known patches/fixes, and do whatever else is possible to improve the base system. This, built on a legal DANO would actually be worth something. Their biggest mistake in my opinion was to start developing applications before they even had the system underneath as good as they could hope to make it.

why we need Zeta
by stew on Sat 27th Nov 2004 19:13 UTC

I'm always shocked when I see what harsh words the BeOS community has for Zeta and YT. What you are forgetting is that they provide something very valuable for the whole community, including Haiku: Attention.

YT is advertising their product, and with it, advertising all things BeOS. They create a market for BeOS-related products. Do you think we would see products like Refraction, Wonderbrush or the continued development of Pixel32 if there was no YT and no Zeta? I doubt it.

Zeta is helping the BeOS market as a whole by drawing attention to it - many people who saw Zeta on TV never heard of BeOS before, and would never have if it wasn't for YT. Even if you don't like YT for personal reasons or because you don't like their QA, think twice before you attack them in public.

why we *don't* need Zeta or yT
by mmadia on Sat 27th Nov 2004 21:57 UTC

while it may be true that Zeta attracted (or re-kindled) some developers, what most people fail to realize is how the Zeta specific proprietary libraries; libzeta.so -- which utilizes "enhanced" methods, messengers, et al hinder BeOS-wide progress.

These libraries only further seperate yT Zeta from R5 and Haiku. Developers now need to actively develop 2 platforms -- Zeta and R5. Some developers do not care or simply refuse to support R5.

If yT want to make developer's lives easier, more productive, and profitable, yT would strive to eliminate the source code differences between Zeta and R5. This would help developers to write their code once, instead of Zeta-only and R5 builds.

As far as words of disgust, upset, and general non-pleasure from various members of the BeOS community regarding yT, there are reasons. Some developers had their work claimed as yT's and others have been publicly slandered. Another group of people voice out to reach to let the non-BeOS community, including newcomers to Zeta, that yT is not representative of the quality of work that is typical of R5|Haiku developers.

Usual disclaimer: I'm not pinning the blame on yT's developers but rather the people calling the shots at yT. yT's developers are most likely doing what they're told to do, so as to get paid.

Re: mmadia
by Anonymous on Sat 27th Nov 2004 22:41 UTC


If yT want to make developer's lives easier, more productive, and profitable, yT would strive to eliminate the source code differences between Zeta and R5. This would help developers to write their code once, instead of Zeta-only and R5 builds.


So what you're saying is they should cripple their OS by taking out all the improvements that were made over R5 and going back to a now 4+ year old codebase solely because Haiku has decided to build R5 first and move from there? That seems rather silly.


that yT is not representative of the quality of work that is typical of R5|Haiku developers.


And the quality of the code in the R5/Haiku codebase varies widely if you actually go look at it. Parts of it are well written, yes, other parts were evidently written by people who were trying to write said parts whilst learning how to write code, and leave much to be desired.

re: mmadia
by stew on Sat 27th Nov 2004 23:12 UTC

These libraries only further seperate yT Zeta from R5 and Haiku.

R5 is the past - do you want to stick to old APIs just because of backwards compatibility? I don't see the point in holding on to R5 until forever, it's showing its age and is not becoming younger.

Haiku, OTOH - well, no one's stopping Haiku from being a Zeta compatible product.

Haiku & Zeta converging
by tic on Sat 27th Nov 2004 23:46 UTC

I see a future where the base API of BeOS is shared between Zeta and the Haiku project, leaving yT with a situation where they would provide value-added apps to what would basically be a distribution of Haiku; this so all BeOS apps can share the same code base.

It's important to _not_ fragment the developer community!

Forking the API is bad, slandering developers is bad.
by Bryan on Sun 28th Nov 2004 00:15 UTC

Illegally obtaining code from either a corporate entity or from a developer community non-profit is bad.

Again, don't shit where you eat. I loathe YT, and I have damn good reason. No reputable company would ever treat their constituancy like this. Especially Be.

YT is a smear of feces across the face of BeOS, and as such should be boy-cott.

re: RE:'s
by mmadia on Sun 28th Nov 2004 01:14 UTC

So what you're saying is they should cripple their OS by taking out all the improvements that were made over R5 and going back to a now 4+ year old codebase

No. I'm saying yT should prevent from deliberately widen the gap. Case in point, they modified BMessengers and BMessages. Although a small and almost trivial change to the API, it requires dev's to either have the zeta specific lines #ifdef'd or to have a seperate R5 trunk of their source code.

The way which Zeta supports SVG also breaks compatibility with R5. They could have done it in a manner where it degrades gracefully into traditional icons. That would help developers and end-users of both R5 and Zeta. It'd also help the end-users who choose to replace Zeta's standard SVG tracker with one they choose, whether it be OT, OT.NewFS, or some other variant.

the quality of the code in the R5/Haiku codebase varies widely

Yes, but R5|Haiku developers usually claim their software to be of the appropriate quality, whether it be alpha, beta, or stable. OTOH, yT has been claming Zeta to be a "Release Candidate" for 4 iterations and it is very apparent that Zeta is anything but a RC. That simple distinction of quality of code can provide people with a more truthful level of expectation in using the software.

do you want to stick to old APIs just because of backwards compatibility?

Not necessarily. At least I would expect yT to try to conform to www.BeUnited.org's OSBOS standards. After all, yT is listed on the page and "yellowTAB supports beunited.org" http://www.yellowtab.com/news/article.php?id=8

To further quote yT :
"We have been a supporter and proponent for standards on BeOS for a long time, but there was never a real opportunity to establish these standards until beunited.org recently announced their new vision. It is very important to us that Zeta works with all applications developed for BeOS and we see standards as a way to achieve this."

Any attempt to deliberately fork the API is without a doubt an action that divides the community and I feel confident in saying that API Forking goes against OSBOS, but then again i'm not an official BU.org rep.

re: stew
by mmadia on Sun 28th Nov 2004 01:22 UTC

Haiku, OTOH - well, no one's stopping Haiku from being a Zeta compatible
product


yeah, you could argue that. But then people would point out that yT doesn't even have a static API yet.

Standard API
by Kian on Sun 28th Nov 2004 01:58 UTC

yeah, you could argue that. But then people would point out that yT doesn't even have a static API yet.

As is proven by how they *broke binary compatibility* with *zeta-only apps* between RC2 and RC3

Any app that had been written specifically to run on Zeta only stopped working on RC3 because they changed the locale API..... Great way to treat the developer community, eh?

To my understanding, YellowTab only has the rights to distribute BeOS. So, they use patches to add to the OS and can add some multimedia stuff, as well as some packages.

I really do not think you will see any new kernel work, unless if Palm suddenly decides to sell it to them.

What YellowTAB is trying to do is to keep the real BeOS alive. I personally think they should work on Haiku.

I feel Haiku has a real chance. Perhaps use Zeta to slowly ease into a new Zeta based on BeOS. It's kinda hard to compete with the former Be, Inc. when it's hard to access the code. OR so I assume

My post assumes that YellowTAB does not have access to the BeOS Kernel Code, if they do have access, may God have mercy on their soul.

yT as a Haiku distributor
by tic on Sun 28th Nov 2004 09:31 UTC

@timh

I second that. Although I'm not as harsh on yT; I realize they need to add "user"-features before they can get their act together and start co-operating on the low-level aspects of the operating system with Haiku; i.e., a locale kit, an usb kit, etc. Basically, they need to get something working as fast as possible, and at that stage they can't afford the luxury of being in sync with Haiku.

In the future though, I think they need to actively work with the Haiku project.

PS: Breaking compatibility between RC2 and RC3 for Zeta-only apps is a _good_ move, as developers for Zeta-only apps still tend to have source to their apps, and doing minor changes to the code to get it to build is a very small trade-off for fixing bugs in the operating system. I wish, say, Be would do that in certain points in time to improve on the quality of the OS for the future. DS.

Please, calm down...
by Koki on Sun 28th Nov 2004 11:02 UTC

> As far as words of disgust, upset, and general non-pleasure from various members of the
> BeOS community regarding yT, there are reasons.

PLEASE, it is OK to make your own intelligent decisions about this or that product, but to be insulting because you do not like or agree with what a company is doing shows a total lack of civility. If you have a problem with an individual, solve it in private, instead of taking every opportunity to bash whatever he/she is doing in public forums. It is quite disgusting, to say the least.

Let it be known too, that there are members of the BeOS community that are quite happy with Zeta. We just don't make as much noise as the few yT bashers

> Yup. YT has been amatuer, egotistical, self-serving crap from day 1.

Well, it is quite easy to criticize and be judgemental. To those who from the confort of their armchairs at home take every opportunity to bash yT, I tell them: if you are so good, if you think you can do so much better, go ahead, make an investment, take the risk, start your own BeOS business, and show us how good you can be.

> Some developers had their work claimed as yT's

Rumors coming from the vineyard?

> yT is not representative of the quality of work that is typical of R5|Haiku developers.

Making this kind of comparisons between Zeta and Haiku today is quite useless. In reality, right now there is nothing to compare, as Haiku does not exist yet as a stand alone OS that people can use. The day that Haiku becomes a self-contained OS and boots so that the average Joe can use it, that day we can start making comparisons. Until then, any claims that Haiku's work is better to this or that seem to be just hypothetical.

> Some developers do not care or simply refuse to support R5.

So? It is their choice, and nobody has any right to force them to do otherwise. Plus it is not surprising that this is happening, as those devs see a better opportunity in Zeta, which is being developed by a business, over BeOS, which is not in development anymore. The so called dev community fragmentation is a myth; rather than fragmentation, there is what I would call a community augmentation, as I see more devs working on BeOS projects today than we had in the last couple of years.

My father, who may now rest in peace, also taught me something many years ago: never say 'this is crap', but instead 'I do not like this'. In other words, because you don't like something it does not mean that it is bad for everybody else (heh, a lot of people like Windows!). Let others make their own decisions too.

a sorry hack
by m on Sun 28th Nov 2004 20:14 UTC

Even if YT had adquired "certain" distribution right for BeOS5, for BeOS5, for BeOS5, for BeOS5 and did I say for BeOS5?, the distribution of the BeOS 'Dano' beta is 100% illegal, besides a terrible, terrible hack. YT is knowingly engaging in criminally liable acts of IP fraud. If only they had something good..., maybe that's the reason they remain unchecked; as someone said, they are trying to make a bookshelf out of mashed potatoes (stolen too).

Looked once like a nice starting company, but there's no way they can justify what they are doing now with all this Dano/Zeta mess. Stick to BeOS5, yeah, dated, though some minor updates are coming out periodically. Or take the plunge.

no source code, api changes?
by stew on Sun 28th Nov 2004 21:10 UTC

Could someone just enlighten me on one thing - it's claimed that YT:
* modifies the API, making Zeta incompatible with R5
* does not have any source code of BeOS itself

Now...how to do these two fit together? How to I make changes to the system API without having it's source code? If someone could just explain that to me, I'd be very happy.

Or could it be that these changes were made by Be?

Re: Please, calm down
by anonymouse on Sun 28th Nov 2004 22:13 UTC

Very well said Koki!

Thank you for the adding some adult comments to a discussion that sometimes seems an eruption of adolescent emotion completely devoid of thoughtful consideration.

@stew
by Kian on Sun 28th Nov 2004 22:41 UTC

They "modify the API" by putting changes to it into libzeta.so, which you must link to to use their changes, hence breaking R5 back-compatibility, and also breaking source forward-compatibility.

They haven't got source. Its obvious - nothing has shown they have, everything shows they haven't.

re: Kian
by stew on Sun 28th Nov 2004 23:36 UTC

So what's the compatibility problem then? If the changes are only in libzeta.so - don't use it. R5 doesn't have it anyway.

Re: Koki
by Bryan on Mon 29th Nov 2004 00:43 UTC

Well written, indeed.

However...

>> Some developers had their work claimed as yT's

> Rumors coming from the vineyard?

Most certainly not. I wish I could be more specific. Really I do. This is going to sound all conspiracy theory like, but I'm silenced for the good of the community. People I have great respect for, and agree with, reached a reasonable agreement with YT over what I consider the biggest violation of trust one could ever imagine. YT will shamelessly steal from other corporations (Be) and from the community itself (*cough-cough*) with reckless abandon, and without guilt.

At one point, while caught with their hand in the cookie jar, it was hoped they would begin to play nice. They joined up with beunited.org, and announced an intention to work with beunited in the OSBOS RFC process. This has yet to happen in earnest.

http://www.beunited.org/standards/index.php

I don't see jack squat submitted by YT, and I certainly don't see any RFC's for the new API's being introduced (and broken between releases) in Zeta. Please provide me with specific incidents of YT being an active member of the BeOS community, proactively defining and implementing standardizable API's.

I don't see a company that helps. I see a company that gives out a copy of a CD for very very few high-profile developers on high-profile projects, hoping that they get preferential treatment for those projects. CD's which effectively cost them next to nothing, while expecting the world in return. They have hired developers (obviously) to work on redundant applications which do little to nothing to enhance the expirence of using Zeta, while developers working on some of the most important applications for the future of the platform get nil.

I'm not saying that these developers should be paid. But if your idea of community involvement and dedication to 3rd party developers is a token gesture (like a copy of your Beta quality OS distro) then I'd say you've got little expirence in working with software vendors who are serious about marketing and enhancing their product.

Furthermore, their submissions of source code changes on the projects they do distribute are all too rare, and far too insignificant.

YellowTab has never acted as a community player. They've stated an intention to do so, however like so many other things they've said, failure to follow through seems to be a way of life.

I propose a naming contest
by Anonymous on Mon 29th Nov 2004 05:40 UTC

Anybody care to bet what name YT will use for their next not-yet-final version of Zeta? The odds are in your favor since they have at least 20 more "pre"-releases before they figure out what a great idea it would be if there was a product actually called Zeta 1.0.

@Bryan
by Koki on Mon 29th Nov 2004 07:04 UTC

Brian,

There is a place for everything. You make some pretty serious accusations which to me seem to belong more to the courts rather than to a comments area in a public forum like osnews.com. Nevertheless, if I were to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that, as you said, there are some people who have made a decision to close their case against YT (whatever that may be), then it is their choice and you have to respect it. Instead, you seem to be trying to take justice in your hands. But then again, it all sounds like another conspiracy theory...

Perhaps we must be reminded that YT is not a community project, but a business, and businesses exist only when profits are made. They are not charities. yT will do what they deem to be in the best interest of their business, as Be Inc. should have done but failed miserably at (in my personal opinion). To expect otherwise is, well, let's say naive. Perhaps YT does things in a way that is not to your liking, but then it is their business and it is only their choice. The market will take care of them if they make the wrong choices.

I do not know what your problem is with YT being selective with devs. I am sure YT decides who to support on a case by base basis, and that they have their reasons for making their choices. You may disagree, but it is THEIR choice, and they are under no obligation to tell you why they make these choices.

I never claimed to be experienced in vendor relationship. All I can do is talk from my own experience and a bit of common sense. I founded JPBE.net early last year, and since then the BeOS community in Japan has grown quite a bit (it was pretty dead before that). My own experience with YT involving JPBE.net has been quite positive, and YT as a company as well as some of the engineers that now work for YT have been quite supportive of the community efforts in Japan. We have done several events, including exhibiting in the last Kansai Open Source 2004 show, where an OpenBFS seminar was given. I think there is a quite synergistic relationship between both sides, which has been positive for both sides. It is a two way street, and communities have to work with (and not against) businesses if they want to have a productive relationship. To expect everything in exchange for nothing is, well, again, quite naive.

As a general comment, it seems as if everytime the word "Zeta" or "yellowTAB" appears on an OSnews.com headline, there is a flurry of mixed accusations, occasional insults, conspiracy theories as well as a lot off-topic criticism for YT and/or Zeta. What is disturbing is that this seems to come always from the same small group of people that call themselves "the community". Well, I was a BeOS user and I am now a Zeta user, and I do not feel represented by the views of these individuals. In fact, I believe their radical views and extremely hostile approach are much more harmful than YT could ever be.

I wonder: Am I the only one who feels this way?

"The Community"
by Kian on Mon 29th Nov 2004 08:31 UTC

Koki - the "communuity" that you refer to are generally long term BeOS users, and often contributors to some of the major development projects that are propping up yellowTAB in certain ways - Bryan, I'm assuming, is Bryan Varner of the Java port - which there is absolutely no doubt yellowTAB will use as soon as it can.

"Conspiracy theories" as you call them are based on what we, the potential userbase, see eminating from YT - PR, negative and positive. Not living in one of the territories that YT seem devoted to - e.g. Japan or Germany, I get none of their attempts at PR spin, so what I see is a picture of an inept company with a poor product (that I've purchased and attempted to use), who take and give little in return.

The side who is expecting everything in exchange for nothing is YT. In Zeta, how much of it was developed by "the community" - e.g. Haiku and others. Firstly, the browser was. As were many of the drivers, particularly the graphics drivers for recent cards. I'm sure they also use Haikus sound drivers, network drivers, etc - all the things that actually let Zeta be used by most people. And what do they give in return?

A few CD's that cost them virtually nothing to press to a few developers off of one project. Thats all.

RE: @Bryan
by peterm on Mon 29th Nov 2004 08:43 UTC

Koki, you're not the only one. Each time I see a news-item on OSnews about BeOS/YT I get sick of all the rants about YT. You don't have to LIKE a company to use it's products (I also use Windows ;-)). It seems to me that most rant comes from people who have never used Zeta themselves and only know 'someone' who has a problem with YT, mistakenly speaking on behalf of 'the comunity'

Hint for YT Zeta marketing
by snyd on Mon 29th Nov 2004 13:21 UTC

I'll bet the next Release will be "Zeta Forever". In two years it's time for a Zeta RC1 Classic in the golden Collectors Box (with all the lovely Bugs at once to remember).

@Kian
by Koki on Mon 29th Nov 2004 17:08 UTC

Kian,

I have nothing personal against Bryan, and I respect his work (as I do that of others, for that matter), but being a long time user and contributor does not mean in my dictionary that you can use words like "feces" (sic) when you are talking about others, particularly in a public forum. I am as part of the community as he is, even if I have been around for a shorter period of time and may have contributed less than he has, but his views and ways certainly do not represent me as a member of the community. So expressing your own opinions is OK, but please do not claim them to be those of the community, because they are not.

If your conspiracy theories are based just on your perception of YT, that points in the direction of my suspicions: that everything is based on speculation and sentiment, rather than hard facts, and that then word of mouth does its job. It seems to all start with statements/accusations/etc. from those who want to harm YT for whatever reason, followed then by others who sheepishly just repeat what they hear and/or read. Again, you are free to think whatever you want about any company and their product(s), and you can conclude that they are inept and their product a poor one. But there is a long distance between expressing your opinion and making serious accusations (such as YT is stealing, what they do is illegal, etc. etc.). The former is acceptable, but the latter looks nothing but a crusade against YT in order to sway public opinion and harm them. You also have the sporadic "prophecies" that YT will go under soon; I have been reading about them for more than a year, and YT is still around and growing.

The notion that Zeta exists only on the basis of what has been done by volunteers is flawed. Zeta is here now because some people made an investment, put a lot of hard work, and have taken risks to make it happen. The 5 to 6 Haiku drivers in bebits.com alone would have not made Zeta what it is today. Yes, YT uses drivers and some other stuff from Haiku, and that is expected, but not because it is YT. What do you exactly want in return? BTW, when Haiku is ready, you can expect more companies to use their code for business purposes. If that is a problem, then Haiku might have chosen the wrong license.

Another notion that is flawed is that of CDs costing almost nothing. What's on those CD is a lot more valuable than the cost of just pressing them. It is the result of investments that were made, risks that were taken, and the hard work of real employees that are being paid real salaries.

Bryan: sorry for misspelling your name.

RE: Corporate Clients?
by TT on Mon 29th Nov 2004 18:33 UTC

Maybe they mean with Company simply one of the badest shopping channels from germany. They are offering Zeta for 99.95 EUR at RTL Shop on Television.

http://rtlshop.de/rtlshop/servlet/rtlshop/newfrontend/frames/articl...

They have listed it as "Bestseller".

What i don't like about Zeta, is that they don't mention BeOS in any way. People that are new to it will think that this OS is an original development by yellowTAB

Re: Koki
by Bryan on Mon 29th Nov 2004 22:00 UTC

I tend to have a habit of saying what I think, rather than thinking what I say. It gets me in trouble sometimes. (ask any girl I've dated)

I've never tried to speak on behalf of "the community" my apologies to everyone if it's been construed that way. Indeed I'd be a terrible voice for a group of people -- I'm a graduate of The School Against Political Correctness (as I'm sure you've noticed). My words are solely my own, and I'll always take responsibility and answer for what I've said and done.

In no way do I consider myself representative of the community. If anything I say is echoed by others, it's of their own volition.

I tried Zeta. It didn't work. It flat out wouldn't boot on my laptop that is fully R5 compatible. How is this better? How is this worth any amount of money I've paid? Why on earth would I continue to support something that dosen't even support hardware that was previously supported?

Furthermore, I'm not arguing who YT has hired, why, or what for. I think they've made outstanding choices in that area. Rest assured, none of my comments stem from any malice or hard feelings about any of that. I've never wanted to, nor do I ever see myself inclined to desire working for YT. I have secure job right now - something YT certainly couldn't offer.

My problems with YT are basically that:

1.) Press releases claiming to be helping and deeply involved in a project only to be followed up with a token gesture is hallow, misleading, and irresponsible.

2.) Certainly YT is around because of an investment. However, without an existing group to draw support from, their investment would have been meaningless. The users purchasing these beta copies of Zeta are taking it on good faith that they'll receive or be able to purchase a final relese from a company that has been anything but forthcomming.

3.) The uncertainty surrounding the legality of YT distributing a version of BeOS that was never completed, and the question as to how much, if any sourcecode they actually have and YT's ongoing silence on the issue. Their own press releases from their inception claim distribution rights to R5, with no mention of future BeOS development versions. Their silence on this issue, as well as the silence from YT and PalmSource regarding source code license deals (and the fact that PalmSource has never mentioned such deals in any SEC filing or investor correspondance) is highly suspect. If either company did in fact have such a deal, there would be no point in hiding it. In the case of PalmSource, investors have a right to know who is licensing intellectual property, under what conditions, and should be concerned if another company elsewhere in the world is attempting to garner profits from illegit use of their IP. In a court system (at least here in the US) already chock full of IP happy lawyers and lawsuits, both companies should be concerned about how the public perceives this. Should this whole deal and license exist, and be legit it would be in the best interest of both companies to make customers and investors well aware of the fact. Keeping a strict line of silence only inspires one to conclude that they're trying to keep a dirty little secret.

Futhermore, has anyone noticed that there dosen't seem to be one single US-based Zeta distributor? R5 had a small army of Gobe resellers stateside. Hrm...

Koki, I've had the priviledge of meeting you in person. I certainly have a great deal of respect for you. I hope you've not taken anything I've said personally. I'm also throughly impressed with and gratefull for your work with JPBE. It was an outstanding effort, and as I see it a great boon for the BeOS community at large. I'm glad that YT is working with the Japan users - it's one of the few areas they've been supportive.

@Bryan
by Koki on Tue 30th Nov 2004 02:04 UTC

1) Please, point to a press release where YT claims to be "deeply involved" in a project.

2) Concluding that paying customers will/may not get their copy of Zeta 1.0 is purely your speculation.

3) Agreements between companies can be very complex, and if nothing has been announced, there must be a reason for it. On the other hand, YT has stated that they are in a legal position to deliver and enhance Zeta (I think it was in one of those Bernd's Corner articles). Being suspicious does not make speculation a fact.

About the lack of distributors in the US, well, it is a German company and it is not surprising that they focus first on their local market. This happens all the time. Doing so could strengthen their position and enable them to move on to other markets in the future. Why do you imply that there may be something suspicious about this? Many companies in the US do not go into other countries for a long time, and nobody becomes suspicios. All this shows that there is a sort of effort on your part to put a negative spin to everything YT, which is what really baffles me.

I have been using Zeta for about one year now, and for me it works. My hadrware is relatively new, and with the exception of sound recording, everything works (video, sound, nic, USB2, DVD-RW and scanner). I do realize that others may not be as lucky. I do not know why Zeta does not boot on your hardware, but I can say that it is not unusual for this kind of things to happen when moving from one version to another of any OS. Did you make a reasonable effort to find what was wrong? Contact YT to see if they could help? Post a message on the YT forums to see if other users could help out?

Lastly, I never took anything personal. I just wished people would use better judgement when making "community claims" (this is not directed at you). The community is much more diverse now, and it is bound to see disagreements. I don't mind disagreement, but this repeated flurry of anti-YT assaults is becoming a real nuisance to those of us who choose to support YT and Zeta.