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'Exchange "is relatively competent with computers" for "is able to read and follow onscreen instructions".'

Which, incidentally, also applies for a stage 1 install of Gentoo :-)

And compare that to the three days I spent understanding how fdisk works, the first time I had to re-install Windows 95. Thank God/Bill/Linus for the internet.

I don't know what is wrong with you....comparing a Microsoft OS that came out 10 years ago with a new Linux OS.....get a life....things tend to get better with time..

I guess you're young because you're missing years on both sides

Windows 95 was released on August 24th 1995. How is he missing years on both sides? Not sure if that is what you meant, but that is what I interpreted your comment as saying.

[i]Windows 95 was released on August 24th 1995. How is he missing years on both sides? Not sure if that is what you meant, but that is what I interpreted your comment as saying.[i]

I'm the one with the second reply, and I din't get you either....maybe you can clarify

Make love not war!

I love Debian, I love Ubuntu; Debian gives me an excellent base to build off of for any customized distribution I need, or works great as a server; Ubuntu gives me an awesome default install for a desktop.

There seems to be more and more Ubuntu hatred flying around; the thing is, if you don't like it, don't use it! It's the best Free desktop-focused Linux out there for people who don't like spending all day tweaking. I mean there's Xandros, Libranet, Linspire, and others, but it seems like they all stray to far from the Linux community after a while.

There seems to be more and more Ubuntu hatred flying around

Yeah, I notice that too. Some people have got the paranoid idea in their head that I'm actally Mark Shuttleworth, and that I'm posting Ubuntu news on OSNews each and every day, in order to take over the world and kill Debian.

They ignore the fact that in the past 8 days only 3 items (2 releases, 1 review) on Ubuntu were posted. Out of a total of what? 80 posts?

LOL.

lol people get offended easily, debian isnt going anywhere no matter what people say, it may be slower moving thsn ubuntu, but it has a different focus, stability, security.

people like to ignore simple logic most of the time, keep the good work up on reporting the news thom, More people enjoy it than not.

> it may be slower moving thsn ubuntu, but it has a
> different focus, stability, security.

Exactly. If I were setting up a server, I'd like to be able to just run a cron job to get security updates and just walk away for a few years until the security patches dry up. As long as security updates are ongoing, Debian's slow pace is a big plus.

On my desktop, however, I want the latest and greatest but I don't want SIDs instability. I don't mind upgrading every 6 months to 1 year, so Ubuntu's 6 month cycle of stabilized SID is ideal.

very true, its always nice to have an up-to-date desktop, ubuntu is def looking good

What's funny is that the people that moan about new Ubuntu posts and pretend they're being posted all the time, wouldn't say a word if every 3 articles was about Slackware, or Crux, or in this case, Debian.

Ubuntu is a very successful and popular disto, of course it's going to get coverage!

Just reading Wikipedia I discovered Ubuntu was established on the Isle of Man. Anyone have any more information about this? Why would Shuttleworth establish there if he is South African? Are there tax/copyright advantages?

Thanks.

Isle of Man has different tax benefits to the rest of the UK, but I don't know why Ubuntu was set up there and not in South Africa.

BTW - Thom, so what if there are some moaners around ? The majority of us here know that your job is to provide links to news items. We also so that it depends on the news that is released of a day, also, it depends on the articles that are being submitted..........


MOANERS, either, accept that your favourite OS company or distro maker has got no news for that day... or write an article yourself and submit that. Until then shut up with this,

"Ubuntu/Windows/MacOSx/Debian/Mandrake/BeOS is crap and why do we read about it everyday ?"

I have read enough of your gripes

You are very far from truth actually. I use netinst cd all the time and I ALWAYS using expert26 or linux26 boot option for install. Matter of fact im also using "debian-installer/framebuffer=false" cause it looks more pretty to me

Yuo're right, I've never considerd that initial boot: prompt!
I'm those of "just to say" :~/

Word...

Now, while is it simple to select packages with apt-get I think that would be a good idea a way to select the kernel, this because 2.4 is even useful and someone can't afford that overbloated 2.6 in some old machines!

apt-get install kernel-image-XXXXXXX

Where XXXXX depends of the architecture, kernel version, etc.

It will remove the old kernel with no need to (re)-compile nothing at all. Even my mother could do it using synaptinc... with some luck.

Oh!, and you may need to reboot like in the old windows times.

I think all the flamewars over the years coming from people comparing apt-get to rpm proves that apt-get has effectively isolated many Debian users from the underlying packaging system. In fact, I don't know many people who even use apt-get preferring one of the many front-ends available--aptitude is quite nice if you haven't seen it yet.

As for knowing init.d, you could make the same argument for most Linux distros. Of course, if you're making that argument because you don't think Debian comes with utilities to manage it then you aren't familiar with managing Debian.

As for knowing init.d, you could make the same argument for most Linux distros. Of course, if you're making that argument because you don't think Debian comes with utilities to manage it then you aren't familiar with managing Debian.

There's a very nice GUI app for managing services (in testing & unstable) called "bum" (Boot-Up Manager).

Quote: "comparing apt-get to rpm proves that apt-get has effectively isolated many Debian users from the underlying packaging system"

huh? The packaging system is dpkg. apt-get is simply a command line frontend to it. Much as dselect is (but is ncurses based).

Quote: "In fact, I don't know many people who even use apt-get preferring one of the many front-ends available--aptitude is quite nice if you haven't seen it yet."

mmm, well you've just met one. I don't use kpackage, synaptic (can't stand it), aptitude or dselect. Plain good ole apt-get does it for me!

Quote: "As for knowing init.d"

Well, that's what LSB is for...Redhat does it's thing, and other distros do theirs...Debian tends to follow the Sys V init style, which imho is most probably the most logical and best way of doing it.

Dave

The packaging system is dpkg

Yes...but people don't have to, and often don't, know that. The parent post, to which I was replying, suggested that people needed to understand dpkg/debconf after installation which is untrue.

apt-get is simply a command line frontend to it. Much as dselect is (but is ncurses based)

Apt-get does dependency resolution along with being a front-end to dpkg. Dselect is a front-end for apt and, though I can't recall its name, there is also a meta-package front-end to apt that lets you select functionality.

mmm, well you've just met one. I don't use kpackage, synaptic (can't stand it), aptitude or dselect. Plain good ole apt-get does it for me!

I, too, prefer using apt-get directly but my point was that, in addition to not having to know dpkg, you don't even have to deal with apt to do post-install package installations.

Debian tends to follow the Sys V init style, which imho is most probably the most logical and best way of doing it

You have no argument with me. There is no need to know init.d/rc.d to manage Debian. Someone mentioned bum in testing/unstable but Debian has had other utilities for quite a while.

The parent post, to which I was replying, suggested that people needed to understand dpkg/debconf after installation which is untrue

Er, how on earth are folks going to configure or reconfigure parts of their system if they aren't aware of dpkg-reconfigure or a gui frontend like gkDebconf? These are essential basics.

Dselect does not work to the same criteria as apt. It is not an equivalent.

There is no need to know init.d/rc.d to manage Debian.

Er, "There are a bunch of crucial scripts somewhere on your pc that start and stop services but you don't need to know where they are." Sounds a great recipe for getting hacked, even though, yes, there are utilities for managing them (not installed by default).

Debian is a great system, but that doesn't mean there is no room for improvement. It has often been compared to a big city with no street signs. When you asked someone the way, they say "Oh, if you lived here you'd know where you were going."

how on earth are folks going to configure or reconfigure parts of their system

Which parts of a standard Debian install need to be reconfigured post-install and can only be reconfigured through dpkg?

Is this knowledge necessary competency? Sure. Is it necessary for the average computer-knowledable user to use Debian? No.

Sounds a great recipe for getting hacked

A "relatively competent" computer user already knows not to connect a computer directly to the internet if it isn't a server.

not installed by default

sysvinit provides its own utilities.

Debian is a great system, but that doesn't mean there is no room for improvement

Nobody claimed otherwise. All things being equal with supported hardware, Woody was slightly more difficult to install than NT4. Sarge is much easier than XP and post-installation is not as difficult as you want to make it out to be.