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If only I hadn't invested so much money in my PC all these years. I can upgrade this ole' PC for a few hundred and it will be a lot faster.

But to buy an equivalent mac would mean spending thousands of dollars, and I would rather pay my car loan off :p

For multiple desktops try using this...

http://wsmanager.sourceforge.net/

"If only I hadn't invested so much money in my PC all these years. I can upgrade this ole' PC for a few hundred and it will be a lot faster."

Its as if you glossed over every reason he preferred his Mac. You make it sound like he could get the same for less if he bought a PC... [roll eyes]

I use fast user switching to get the same desired effect as multiple desktops. it works nearly as good IMHO

I wouldn't go so far as to call this article propaganda but it's pretty close. I wish Apple would do the world a favor and release OS X on x86, because then we wouldn't have to endure so much anti Microsoft hot air.

Although the interview is brief, I'm not convinced that he's actually used all the Operating Systems listed. Not even all the Windows versions!

Hell, I'd even be surprised if he really has a YDLinux partition on his machine. I could be wrong, but he seems to have no reall understanding of an OS beyond the application level. Does sitting in front of a machine with a system installed qualify as using it?

If apple released OS X on x86, well then microsoft wouldnt bank roll them any more.

As for Dave's comment " I'm not convinced that he's actually used all the Operating Systems listed. Not even all the Windows versions! "

I would have to agree. I believe that he may have installed them but never really used the OS' or explored the app's.

As for MS bashing, "I LOVE IT". Competition from other OS' like *BSD and Linux has put a fire under MS' butt. And I believe that is a good thing. Got to keep comapanies on there tippie toes...

>>iexplore.exe has caused a page fault in module at WHOTHEHECKKNOWSWHATTHIESENUMBERSMEAN:FFFFFFF01"<<

He makes it sound like apps on the Mac never fail. That's a load of crap. Like a previous poster said, this guy seems to have very little understanding beyond web browsing.

My .. two of the killer features are
1) a spell checker that works everywhere
2) a beautiful front end on Unix.

This sounds like a NeXT cube from the mid 90's. Jobs certainly got the technology right .. Why oh why can't apple turn that in to larger marketshare .. on both PowerPC and x86 boxen?

Ummm, yeah. Using any version of Windows, to me, is more like going to the dentist. Painful and annoying but occasionally necessary (unfortunately). Linux, BeOS, and other OS's might be more difficult to use, harder to understand, or whatever but at least they're not as just plain annoying as Windows 9x, 2000, and ESPECIALLY XP. XP = Windows 2000 + eXtra Puke. Regrettably, I have to use Win2K for work since I'm a cog in the machine that is Corporate America (TM) and my employer is very Microsoft whipped.

If money grew on trees, I'd buy a G5 Powermac. I just looked out the window and saw some trees. Unfortunately I all saw were some dead looking branches where leaves used to be. Didn't see any green paper bills on them.

Thank you, good night.

-Mr. Cranky

I like MS bashing as much as the next man, but it gets a little tiring after awhile. I've actually grown to really like Windows XP now that Microsoft seems to be getting more serious about security/stability issues.

One of the reasons I always refused any Mac OS is because up until recently the way Windows managaes, well, windows, IMO, was superior. But now this Expose thing, though I haven't tried it yet, looks like it raises the bar for Window management.

But, let's call a spade a spade here. Mac OS has now borrowed several UI features that Windows has had since '95. For example:

* The OS X dock == a spiffed up Windows taskbar
* The new program switcher is Panther == Alt-tab in Windows

Only a couple but I'm sure there are more. Also, what's with the way Mac OS has historically handled mice. What am I crippled! I'm not allowed to move the mouse more than 2 inches per second. I heard this is fixed in Panther, but before this release: Apple, get a clue!

Point is no one UI is perfect. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. Just look at the many blunders OS X still makes in Eugenia's recent excellent article: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=4964.

From what I've read, I do think OS X.3 is probably the best desktop UI now in existence. Though it doesn't hurt to be objective once in awhile. After not only Bill Gates works at Microsoft. There are regular people who work there and they should be congratulated for their UI innovations. The same goes for Apple.

Congrats to all for pushing the state of the art!

I have never really used a Mac except once when I was at UNI, they had a few G4s (I think that's what they were) and they were using the old MacOS 9 system. I only then dared to touch this type of system for a few minutes. For some reason I found it very uncomfy and I remember ms word crashing and a popup message box came up on the screen saying it has crashed and all of a sudden this robotic voice appeared reading the text in the message box. I almost cracked lauging because I hadn't seen such a thing before and it was like in the movies hehehe and I tell my friend, hey hey look at this, it talks to you!

Everything was soooo strange because I am used to Windows so much. I have never used OS X but we have some Apple centers in here and I may pay them a visit a few times to play with MAC OS X, just to feel the system and see how it is. After all the reviews I read about G5, I actually wished I had a G5 hehe If I like MAC OS X, the next system may be it would be an Apple system

"Its as if you glossed over every reason he preferred his Mac. You make it sound like he could get the same for less if he bought a PC... [roll eyes]"

Not what my post was intending. It's more like an existing PC owner lamenting the prohibitive costs of starting over on a new computing platform.

For me, I'd have to purchase a new version of Photoshop, and none of my PC games would be useable of course.

It's a large commitment to switch to a new platform. I run Linux most of the time anyway (since I'm mainly a coder), so blue screens and stuff are hardly an issue.

What little I use Windows I use for Gaming and Photoshop. Nothing else...

I really do not see how James was microsoft bashing. I am a college student and can honestly say that I have had much better luck with using a mac than with windows. Several times I have been typing huge papers and the blue screen of death appears and completely kills any work I have done. I know there is a feature to save work when this happens, but it doesn't always recover the work. On the other hand I have never had this happen with a mac. I am sure it can, but hasn't happened yet. Also, why is there so much fuss between mac and windows anyways? Mac and Windows both have good ideas and products. I never heard James say that Microsoft was complete crap. He only wrote of an experience he had with the Windows OS. Its only a matter of preference. Both companies have good ideas, but I definately think that macs are now stepping up to the plate to give windows based systems some competition. Thanks,
Mel

The general concensus of the posts before me are, if someone claims to like Apples, they compulsivley lie about what operating systems they use, and have no understanding of computers.

I've never used a Mac, ever. But it is obvious your biases are showing. And so what if he isn't a computer genius, maybe he's just a "User", it doesn't mean the operating system is bad, hell, it just shows how good it must be to attract both technical and non-technical people.

I am certain he has used all of the operating systems he claimed to, has a Yellow Dog installation, and has reasonable knowledge of operating systems. Anyone who thought contrary to that needs to take of the tinfoil hat, lose their "1337" attitude, and stop being so critical of other people.

Jesus, this guy takes time out of his life to do an interesting little interview and all people can do is endlessly complain about it. Grow up. Not everyone is a system administrator or program developer, that doesn't make them any less intelligent than those that are.

>> Several times I have been typing huge papers and the blue screen of death appears and completely kills any work I have done. <<

Blue Screen of Death hasn't been around for at least a few year, with the introduction of Windows XP/Windows 2000... maybe it's time you upgraded?

As a long time computer person, I started in the military in 1970, and almost 20 years of using Intel PC's I can sympathise with the author. And he may indeed have used all the OS's he specified. I have used more than I care to mention and the best was BeOS. With the advent of the new G5 I finally broke down and switched. I speced out a top of the line G5 and Intel system and much to my surprise there was very little price difference.

Anyway, I have been using my new system for only a couple of weeks now and I will say that so far I am very happy with it. I spend a lot of time fixing problems on other peoples windows systems so when I sit down at my own keyboard I just want a system that works. I have failed to find that in amy version of windows. If the last couple of weeks are any indication I may have found what I was looking for. As the saying goes, "Try it, you will like it".

Johnfive said "* The OS X dock == a spiffed up Windows taskbar"


ummm, have you ever heard of NeXTSTEP?

,,Apple makes the hardware, Apple makes the software'' -- This whole Apple looks like Genesi ;->

Our Mac is not hacked. Pure 100% unadalterated Apple stuff. Same with the OS. Yet, I think it's just as annoying (in different ways and some similar) as Microsoft Windows XP and a PC. Anyone here who has seen my postings on this topic will know I have constant and annoying problems with Mac OS X. I'm really tired of seeing the statements about how Apple is so much better and that life using a Mac is so much better. It's just not true. These comments are at best totally subjective. Someone like me can't stand Macs any more than I can stand WindowsXP. Someone else may work totally differently and feel comfortable with a Mac. So be it. But the grass is not greener on the other side for everyone. I'm still looking for MY greener pasture and I don't think it exists... yet.

I'm still waiting for the OS I paid for...

UmmmmHmmmm....yeap, they make the hardware. Sure they do. By the way, when is PartIII coming out?

The Dock is actually a direct descendent of the NeXT dock, which predates Win95. Its actually superior to the taskbar in several ways once you get used to how it works. Also, the tab-switching has been in CDE forever, so it probably predates Windows as well.

In the interest of fair and balanced reporting:

Apple (and everyone else) borrowed one MS innovation --- tabs. Tabs are overused in a lot of ways (I prefer the MacOS style icon sidebar for stuff like config panes) but its undoubtedly an important feature.

Yes, I was particularly annoyed at the implication that OSX and OSX software doesn't crash.

OS X DOES crash and so do the apps.

I'm a victim of the mysterious "It's only YOU, Jace" problem of Safari freezing on forums and other active content sites (come over and I'll show you, it happens every time).

Then there are the times when I close an app and OS X tells me that it "unexpectedly quit." No, you twit, I quit it myself.

Then there's that floppy problem with FAT volumes that will bring the whole OS to a standstill.

My favorite crash is the one that happens for no apparent reason (and with a lack of technical feedback, ALL failures are for no "apparent" reason), when the computer was sitting idle, doing nothing, running nothing other than OS X and IE. My girl was browsing the net. She got up and walked away when she was done. I walked by the computer about 20 minutes later and there was a "You need to restart your computer" message in six languages transparently covering a static screen with a big "power button symbol" in the background. I asked her if this was why she left it and she said no, she was just done. It apparently did this on its own. For no reason that mere mortals can see (and Apple doesn't like to give useful and meaningful information... try copying a file with more than 31 characters in the name to a volume that is HFS standard). If that's not the Apple equivalent to BSOD, nothing is.

And here I am typing this in Safari on Mac OS X on our Mac G4... I'm not an anti-Apple zealot. I just don't like BS and hype.

Tabs were in use on OS/2. Not MS OS/2, but IBM OS/2. This was before Win95. Correct me if I'm wrong, but provide proof and don't be an ass ;-)

Besides, I'd rather have a BeOS or Windows taskbar any day over the OS X Dock. Call it personal preference... but I think window management sucks in all versions of Mac OS, with OSX being the only slight improvement.

Liar. on my HP Pavilion laptop, I have had 4 Blue screens in 2 years. MS has cleverly hidden these from you by restarting your computer so you can't see it, but one time, there was a lag, and I saw a flash of blue with white text.

sure, Windows is WAYYYYY more stable now that in was back in the day, but to say it is bullet proof is just a damn lie. and no, I was not using bad drivers, or weird programs...I have VS 6 and Office installed, nothing else, and the only drivers I have on the laptop are Microsoft signed drivers.

anyone who has read here knows how much crap you spew. with all the problems you have, I suggest you either take your computer in and have it checked, or depending on how old the system is (a beige G3?) get a new system....OR you are running hackware on there.

problems do not just happen in OS X, there is some reason for them. and the reason is fixable....but hey, you don't want to help yourself, then why are you complaining?

Hmm, you're right. OS/2 had tabs about 1990, and apparently, some Amiga apps had them in 1985. They probably go back even farther. I think what I'm remembering is that Windows was the first one to use tabs extensively (for prefs panels and whatnot) and when Apple put tabs into MacOS, it was because of a direct influence from Windows.

As for the Dock, its nice because it preserves a nice spatial relationship between an application window's and its icon in the dock. If you don't really care for classic MacOS's whole spatial thing, then you probably won't care for the Dock either.

"Blue Screen of Death hasn't been around for at least a few year, with the introduction of Windows XP/Windows 2000... maybe it's time you upgraded?"

I have a Bluescreen every couple of weeks and I'm using Windows XP Pro on my ThinkPad T21 laptop. Sometimes the entire OS just gets corrupted after repeated bluescreens and automatic restarts. I tried everything from not installing the Service Pack to changing RAM, same thing, and when I run hardware diagnostic programs, everything checks out fine.

This is whats making my buy a new G4 iBook. I've tried FreeBSD on the T21, but the XFree86 drivers for the Savaga IX card are unstable, screensavers crash the entire OS, and the free *nixes simply don't have the applications that I need. Applications like PhotoShop (PLEASE don't tell me to use GIMP). My filmscanner is also only supported under Windows and Mac OS/OSX. And I must admit, no one makes prettier machines than Apple, and with the recent release of G4 iBooks, I now have no excuse NOT to switch.

Thank you for exemplifying the typical offensive and slanderous response to my valid and honest description of real technical problems with Apple products.

If you had paid attention to what I said before getting into your "arrogant response" position so quickly, you'd know that it is NOT a beige G3.

Thank you for also including the typical redirecting response of "get a new machine" as though ours is somehow inferior because it didn't roll out of manufacturing two weeks ago.

" problems do not just happen in OS X, there is some reason for them."

Are you implying that problems DO just happen on Windows and that Mac OS X is somehow immune to this annoyance?

Of course there are causes. There are not always solutions. At least, not solutions within the grasp of mere mortals like myself. Or at least, not within the grasp of people who want to just use the computer as a tool to get stuff done instead of constantly trying to find out why it doesn't do what it's supposed to do. Maybe someone like you would have it fixed faster than I can say "Yeah right" but I've got a job and other priorities in life that come before troubleshooting products that are supposed to just work.

I suspect that the cause of the problems may be along the lines of ... well let's see... bad OS X code. Such as lack of testing of OS X on the G4 system type I have here (it was superceded by a few other machines before OS X shipped). Bad code in the FAT filesystem handler, as explained by a poster on another Apple article feedback forum here at OSNews (he had equally harsh criticism of OS X). Lack of stress testing in general.

I don't want to help myself, you say... EXCUSE ME. I help myself constantly. More than should be necessary. What I DON'T want to do is disrupt the other computer users in this house for as long as it takes to narrow the cause of these problems (by a drive to backup the existing drive's contents on, wipe the existing drive, reload the OS from scratch, swap out memory, video, etc) and the longer amount of time and money that it would take to solve them (if possible).

One last thing... which problems of mine are you claiming that I don't actually have or that "do not just happen" in OS X? I've so many and you've only responded in the most vaguest of ways, not refering to any of them in specific. I'd love to solve these problems so if you're so sure these problems are fixable... do tell how instead of just going on about how I'm full of crap.

i can verify that BSODs exist in XP, the XP driver that came w/ my DVD-RAM combo-drive was not XP signed and attempting to erase (i believe it s been patched since this) a DVD-RW in it could crash the OS and BSOD. i'm not saying that the BSOD in this case was M$'s fault, but the point is that BSODs still do exist in XP

btw why when i get severe internet lag my downloading something huge does my MOUSE cursor become less response on a 2.3 Ghz P4 w/o HT w/ 1 Gig RDRAM ? THAT makes no sense


PS- the *LAST* thing i want is for OSX to be ported to the x86 platform. x86 as an ISA needs to DIE and OSX is the only viable choice. if you don't believe me just trying programming in x86 assembler and then something like SPARC (btw i PPC != SPARC, but still RISCy)

"Hmm, you're right. OS/2 had tabs about 1990, and apparently, some Amiga apps had them in 1985. They probably go back even farther."

It wouldn't surprise me :-) Thanks for pointing out that Amiga used them too. I never had one of those.

I think what I'm remembering is that Windows was the first one to use tabs extensively (for prefs panels and whatnot) and when Apple put tabs into MacOS, it was because of a direct influence from Windows.

MS has the enviable position of being envied. Lots of things that they do come from elsewhere, but, when MS does it, it suddenly gets noticed and people try to emulate it. Sometimes this is good and sometimes this is bad.

As for the Dock, its nice because it preserves a nice spatial relationship between an application window's and its icon in the dock.

I don't think I can agree here. I would say you're wrong, but maybe I don't understand your statement. The Dock, specifically, goes against many "good UI design practices." Such as maintaining a consistent location and size for and of a control or object that a user needs to interact with (I could give about 6 specific examples of this one). So, spacially, the Dock is an utter failure except with the fact that it is a place to store shortcuts and limited window management that is always on screen (unless you have it auto-hide, which is good that this is not a default behavior).

If you don't really care for classic MacOS's whole spatial thing, then you probably won't care for the Dock either.

I like these things about classic Mac OS very much. Classic MacOS had far more adherence to spacial concepts than OS X does. Classic Mac OS has a lot of things that OS X lacks (not that it can't acquire them through hard work and attention to details). Not just the little features like spring loaded folders and labels, either. Basic and fundamental design concepts such as easy system management, modularity, sensible names for most all objects in the file system (including the system folder's contents!!), consistency, UI speed, easy management of system add-ons, etc. Classic OS just lacked the modern memory and tasking functions that everyone wanted. The new Mac OS Apple was working on before they brought Jobs back to the company was a much better product (it just didn't live up to management's time expectations). The Classic mode in OS X is actually a port from that OS (the OS was called Copland).

I am not sure what you people experience but I have a custom built system for such a long time now and ran XP on it, I haven't seen a single BSOD literally.

About the dock. I don't know too much about how OS X does it, my experience with docks is mostly in Linux. Linux docks invariably follow the NeXT model, which keeps a very strong spatial connection between a window and its icon. I suppose the Dock in OS X is a bit different, because it tries to be a shortcut bar at the same time, as well as doing all sorts of resizing and moving around and whatnot. NeXT style docks don't do that. Also, they can be large and visible without taking up lots of space. NeXT style docks can be managed basically as just another window. That means that apps can lie on top of them, to avoid wasting screen space. However, if you move your cursor to one side (or corner) of the screen, the dock will rise to the top of the window stack, which ensures that it is always quickly accessible.

Shawn (IP: ---.kc.rr.com) - Posted on 2003-10-31 04:24:38
If only I hadn't invested so much money in my PC all these years. I can upgrade this ole' PC for a few hundred and it will be a lot faster.

But to buy an equivalent mac would mean spending thousands of dollars, and I would rather pay my car loan off :p

I can agree with your to a certain extent. I have heard others say, "if they had a competitive upgrade policy which allowed me to move from from the Windows to equivilant Mac version, I would be happy to pay the media costs". I am probably lucky in the fact that the software I owned was dual-operating system, that is, MacOS and Windows version came on the same CD, which was rather neat.

With that being said, there isn't a lack of games but the ability to purchase them is a real nightmare. Sure, you can buy a Mac and productivity applications no problems, however, even finding something as common as "Civilisation III" or "Simcity 4000" is almost impossible. Sure, I *could* purchase it online, however, I am a bit of a ludite and prefer going in and actually

Yet on the other hand, I love Office X for MacOS, it is a great piece of software and I would love to purchase the next version of Office when made available. As for Macromedia 2004, apart from the activation, again, it is great piece of software. The only let down IMHO is Corel Graphics Suite, however, its speed is crap both on the Mac and PC, maybe once I have saved my "pennies and pounds" I can purchase Adobe Creative Suite; having used informally InDesign 2, IMHO I can't believe I put up with all the ideosyncracies of Corel Draw for so long.

johnfive (IP: ---.ne.client2.attbi.com) - Posted on 2003-10-31 04:51:06
I wouldn't go so far as to call this article propaganda but it's pretty close. I wish Apple would do the world a favor and release OS X on x86, because then we wouldn't have to endure so much anti Microsoft hot air.

The whole attraction of the Mac isn't the hardware or the software but the whole package, it is what the marketspeak people call a "vertical business". To achieve the level of integration between the hardware and software which Apple has, they need to control all the aspects of the system and I'm sorry, if you produce a MacOS X, even under the best conditions you're still going to be handstrung by the fact that Apple will need to test their operating system on the numerous hardware combinations; that doesn't even take into account the number of small white box producers who make up a good portion.

That doesn't take into account the amount of possibly different chipsets and the necessary software to work around bugs in the actual chipsets themselves, then there are the video cards, each vendor adding a tweak of their own even though they're all based on the same GPU, hence the reason why it is such a hit and miss to whether you get realiable performance from video cards running on Linux regardless of the fact that the video card is based on a the same GPU's.

rizzo (IP: ---.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net) - Posted on 2003-10-31 05:03:49
He makes it sound like apps on the Mac never fail. That's a load of crap. Like a previous poster said, this guy seems to have very little understanding beyond web browsing.

Which represents Joe Average. This is the same audiance that Windows and MacOS pander to. Whether or not the issue is hardware or software, the fact remains that the end user will either blame the computer company, Microsoft or both. The fact remains that if the user perception is that the software is buggy, it doesn't matter whose fault it is, they (the customer) assume that it is the computers fault.

The fact remains that if the hardware and software companies work together OR are under the same roof, it is less likely for problems to arrise. Imagine if every Dell was stress tested with Windows XP and any problems that are found can correct by Microsoft and Dell, you would effectively end up with a situation similar to Apple except both would be independent of each other.

I'm primarily a Mac user and this is the stupidest interview I've ever read.

Optus Australias' second largest telecom announced it is replacing 5000 (five thousand) Mac desktops with PCs running Windows.

http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7708246%255E15317,0...

I suspect that there are 10 Mac desktops switched to x86 for every Windows to Mac switcher.

Anyone able to say such sentences as "Would I ever go back? I will never go back to XXX: not for anything in the world." shouldn't be taken too seriously !

Apparently this guy have a very limited sight of the future. And prefer to stick to a definitive (temporary) point of view...

Although the interview is brief, I'm not convinced that he's actually used all the Operating Systems listed. Not even all the Windows versions!

I have used all versions of windows over my computing life but I don't still use them all.

Hell, I'd even be surprised if he really has a YDLinux partition on his machine. I could be wrong, but he seems to have no reall understanding of an OS beyond the application level. Does sitting in front of a machine with a system installed qualify as using it?

Is this a bad thing. I find if I am playing with the OS then I am not doing any work. Unless your work involves OSes

About the dock. I don't know too much about how OS X does it, my experience with docks is mostly in Linux.

Heh heh heh...

Linux docks invariably follow the NeXT model, which keeps a very strong spatial connection between a window and its icon. I suppose the Dock in OS X is a bit different, because it tries to be a shortcut bar at the same time, as well as doing all sorts of resizing and moving around and whatnot. NeXT style docks don't do that.

I was very interested in NeXT... just before Jobs through out the baby with the bath water. I was too late and NeXT was too costly even before then. Thanks for the notes about the differences of the Dock in the Linux. I would hope that they don't begin to copy the behaviors of the Dock in OSX. Sadly, most alternative OSes seem to only copy the (often bad) ideas of the commercial OSes on the top of the food chain.

At 4:59am... my typos are making me look like English may be my second language... and I'm a lame monolingual.

I'm not intending to be so down on Linux and open source and alternative OSes with that last comment. It's just a trend that needs to be seriously looked at. Choose a design for good reasons. Do research. Don't just imitate. There are some good new ideas here and there but most stuff is just in immitation mode.

wow! no wonder the guy is an "official" switcher. no complaints at all! only positive feelings about Macs. even one button mouse didn't make him feeling uncomfortable. that's weird!

wow! no wonder the guy is an "official" switcher. no complaints at all! only positive feelings about Macs. even one button mouse didn't make him feeling uncomfortable. that's weird!

iBooks don't come with a mouse. As for the one-button mouse issue, you can always use a 3rd-party gazillion button USB mouse with any USB-equipped Macs and they'll work just fine.

I am not sure what you people experience but I have a custom built system for such a long time now and ran XP on it, I haven't seen a single BSOD literally.

That's because XP's default is to reboot in the case of BSOD. You have to go to "System Properties", "Startup and Recovery" settings, and unclick "Automatically restart". Now instead of the magical, sponteaneous reboots, you will get your BSOD.

I get them on my Dell laptop with the "Designed for Microsoft Windows XP" sticker on it. All signed drivers. Installed and configured by the corporate infrastructure team.

his experience with PCs is a common sentiment that drives people to switch.

BSOD, viruses, vulnerabilties, cryptic error messages and Windows in general are good enough reasons for most people. I don't understand why people are surprised with his comments. Most people are frustrated with PCs and if not they are generally indifferent. The people that are not are usually more technically inclined to fix their problems and even these people get frustrated.

I'm not saying that Macs and MacOSX is perfect but if you give it a real test drive most usually find that its better than what you are normally accustomed to.

Please understand, this is just my own opinion. The fact of the matter is, I have used every operating system I did list, for at least a year at a time. If you really want to know, I WAS a computer tech for 3 strait years at a single store. If you want a stressful job, please take my place. You even begin to understand my frustrations until you do. I am indeed an experianced user, who used to build machines & maintain a Windows network. I cannot fight my experince with everyone, because not everyone has the same view as me, I understand that. I am tired of the people who think they are computer techs because they can build a Windows jiggsaw computer. Thiese are the same people who have 5 diffrent types of screws holding the mother board strait down to the metal backing, if not the brass stand-offs. Until you get frustrated with the hassles of Microsoft Windows, witch, you will - Do not fault me for my opinion.

As far as Apple computers - I never said applications do not crash, or are so much better. The application department for MacOS X is still very much a young child. What I can tell you is, I am not going to spend my time re-loading my computer every 30 days because I upgraded my web browser and now nothing works.

There are no automatic restarts, nor there are any BSODs. Once I had problems when I had the Intel Application Accelerator installed and I believe that caused instant reboots, it was as if someone had clicked the reset button. That's how my system restarted. I thought my RAM or mainboard could be at fault but ever since I did a re-format and did not install the app accelerator, never seen any problems. I am not saying the app accel, caused the reboots, may be it was something else but I haven't seen any problems now. My system is rock stable.

20 10/28 @stake Advisori (3,4K) Mac OS X Arbitrary File Overwrite via Core Files
-> 21 10/28 @stake Advisori (4,7K) Mac OS X Systemic Insecure File Permissions
22 10/28 @stake Advisori (3,3K) Mac OS X Long argv[] buffer overflow
Fix : Update to Panther


For the moment, it is not clear if Apple will release for free bugfixes for his 15days old operating system.
Even Microsoft doesn't dare to such things nowdays.

It seems that people are either not informed, or they have short memories.

Back when OS X was called Rhasody, apple did have two versions of teh OS, an X86 version (which I now run under VPC) and a PPC version. Apple let the DEVELOPERS decide. They gave developers both copies and they said "go ahead and knock yourselves out, make any app that you want " In the end PPC apps were more than double the x86 apps! Even though apps for either platform could be made with a simple recompile (well possibly some adjustments too), developers chose to compile for the PPC platform mostly. These were not all mac developers, I would fathom to guess that most were NeXTSTEP developers that made the jumped from NeXT to Rhapsody.


After the dev Ed 2 f Rhapsody, the x86 version was never again made.

" By Bugtrqa (IP: ---.atis-stud.uni-karlsruhe.de) -
20 10/28 @stake Advisori (3,4K) Mac OS X Arbitrary File Overwrite via Core Files
-> 21 10/28 @stake Advisori (4,7K) Mac OS X Systemic Insecure File Permissions
22 10/28 @stake Advisori (3,3K) Mac OS X Long argv[] buffer overflow
Fix : Update to Panther"

yea okay @stake didn't list ms blaster warnings, fired a top guy because he said bad things about a monocultre operating system. (microsoft only world)

Also apple has not said whether or not it will fix the probelms. it is in limbo at the moment.

Compared to msblaster, SQL slammer and 31 remote Internet Explorer holes(unpatched and won't be)

3 little holes with no known remote exploit is a minor deal

>BSOD, viruses, vulnerabilties, cryptic error messages and Windows in general are good enough reasons for most people.

A message from the Real World(tm): Most people use Wintels, 95% + X actually.
Apple is more irrelevant than ever before with only 1-2% marketshare. The only real competition for MS is Linux on the server and the sysadim-managed cooperate desktop.

..gotta love em :-D
No company is irrelevent my friend, not sun, not SGI, not apple.

previous title should read "Windows and Linux crowDs" not crows

I'm not going to post anything about this clear Apple propaganda, but

The MacOS is absolutely ASTONISHING. It has the same simplicity & stability of the BeOS

Heck, Windows XP was more stable for me than BeOS. Hrmmph.

"You need to restart your computer" message in six languages transparently covering a static screen with a big "power button symbol".
99% of the time this is caused by bad ram. Shit does go bad. Even Apple's shit. It is not made from pure holly energy you know. No one says the Mac is perfect. It is just the best solution out there.

"A message from the Real World(tm): Most people use Wintels, 95% + X actually.
Apple is more irrelevant than ever before with only 1-2% marketshare. The only real competition for MS is Linux on the server and the sysadim-managed cooperate desktop."

Hmm... Most car owners buy GM/Ford et al... So, I guess with this premis, Ferrari's, BMWs etc. are irrelevant as well.

Hmm... Most DESIGNERS use MAC. Period. That's not to say that ALL designers use a Mac... I get more done, in less time on my Mac... with minimal foibles... yes, I yell at my computers, and I yell at the PC's in my life a LOT more than I yell at my Mac.

Servers... The Mac OSX has been making great strides in that department... I'd love to MicroSnort loose big time to Linux Servers... Wouldn't be nice to have a world of Mac & Linux, together? Hmmm, Servers could be either Mac OR Linux... Portables and Desktops Mac?

personally, I use a PC(XP) at my day job and a Mac for my freelance work. With all the differnt distros of Linux et al, I can't see myself using Linux in an actual work environment, unless I have a box (linux) dedicated to being a server or running 'certain' apps etc.

Rayiner, I've used a lot of Window Maker, AfterStep, etc. on Linux, I can definately say that a lot of good points about NeXT's model. The same can't be said about OS X dock. Had OS X kept the Dock mostly intact, it would have been fine. But it decided to be a cross between the Dock and Windows' taskbar, and having it in the middle of the screen with no constant location for each icon is a terrible idea for me. And the fact that unless you hover over, they don't come with labels is bad (NeXT at least had labels underneath, and I could imagine the Dock with smaller icons and larger labels).

Overall, if I used OS X, I would try to replace the Dock. Right now using Windows, on the quick launch, as it had been for more than one and a half years, the icons to Opera is right there and I automatically click it everytime I want to browse. The same can be said of Thunderbird's icon, although it is more recent and my reflects less spontanous. I can't imagine the same for the Dock. Sure, it would be easier with a big red O icon to attract my attention, but I hate the size of the dock anyway.

Funny, though. I loved Platinum (Classic's UI). May not be the best thing to look at, could sure need some new icons, as well some polishing here and there and not to mention a little rearrangement (especially the control panel/ preferences, as well as the Apple menu). But hands down, I would choose Classic over OS X anytime. (And Dock isn't the only reason).

Id like to give OSX a try, but it just wont happen because of their upgrade paths. I upgrade my PC for a few hundred every year or so, Linux is free, and Microsoft takes many years to release new OSs. So, at the end of the day my computer isnt costing me very much. Mac, on the other hand costs a bundle to get into, has no hardware upgrade path worth mentioning outside of buying whole new machines, and has regular expensive updates to OSX. All told the OSX platform simply costs way too much IMO. It costs more and does less. This is why Apple as 1 - 2% market share. Before anyone gets excited and turns on the flame thrower.....when I say it does less, Im referring to its ability to play most games out there. You could go further to say that when you walk into your local electronics retailer, there is usually row after row of x86 software and a small 5 x 5 shelf for the Mac stuff if at all.

I meant to say "inability" in the second to last sentence

Has anyone had much experience working with Macs in the workplace? At my job, we provide IT support for a small company in our building, for the last 2 years. Half of their network uses Macs, half Win9x/2k PC's. While I'll be the first to admit that I can't stand Windows (especially the Win9x series), maintaining the Macs running OS 9 is much worse. It seems like the Macs work perfectly (much better than the PCs), until there is some problem. Then, diagnosing, and fixing the problem takes much more time and energy.

Is this true for OS X? Does anyone else feel the same about Macs, i.e. - when they break, they REALLY break hard?

If you really want to know, I WAS a computer tech for 3 strait years at a single store.

Yup. Nothing like sysadmin or tech work to make those endearing traits of different OS'es become major pains in the neck. Most people can deal with it on one machine, but when it comes to fixing 10+ you start to lose your patience pretty fast, no matter what OS.

As far as Apple computers - I never said applications do not crash, or are so much better. The application department for MacOS X is still very much a young child.

Well, depends on the approach a person takes. I notice most anti-Mac people find ways to complain about how their apps don't map over, whereas pro-Mac users usually find better apps, or find they don't need those old apps anyhow. An argument on Linux vs Windows vs MacOS apps usually degenerates into something resembling kids fighting over GameCube vs XBox vs PS2. Rather juvenile, indeed.

What I can tell you is, I am not going to spend my time re-loading my computer every 30 days because I upgraded my web browser and now nothing works.

Or mal/spyware crept in and redirects your home page to porn sites all the time. Well, ironic these days, most motherboard manufacturers ship Ghost with the motherboard software pack now...

What is it about Mac zealots that makes them mindlessly repeat Apple sales slogans such as "It just works" and "switch"? One would think, listening to them, that Mr. Jobs is a Svengali and can make his converts repeat anything his marketing department dreams up.

Has anyone had much experience working with Macs in the workplace?

Yes. Over 5 years now officially, unofficially over 15 years.

...maintaining the Macs running OS 9 is much worse. It seems like the Macs work perfectly (much better than the PCs), until there is some problem.

You need a SOE for MacOS since users generally start creeping stuff into the system which starts a downwards spiral, as once a Mac starts crashing, it generally keeps on doing it if the System is flakey, while general app faults are pretty easy to fix. Most of the time, you can reinstall the app or ditch the preferences to fix the problem, or do some troubleshooting to fix the problem. Depends what is going on.

Again - if you are not experienced with troubleshooting MacOS, what could be a trivial problem becomes a rather big problem psychologically. In my case, I had a lab of iMacs running Mac Manager and 8.6 - my total workload for the year would be 2 weeks. If a Mac died beyond all recognition (ie, didn't boot anymore), you could zip up and reinstall the OS via NetBoot trivially. (I think about 3 iMacs did this over a year, though).

Is this true for OS X? Does anyone else feel the same about Macs, i.e. - when they break, they REALLY break hard?

MacOS X has all new quirks to deal with, so it's more like Unix so you have to check file permissions, /etc files, processes etc. In general, a cleanly set up MacOS X kept up to date with all the security patches and updates and the user is kept from installing software or messing things up with run nicely for quite a while. (Plus you can blast it and reinstall a SOE MacOS X quickly).

Though, for MacOS 8/9 - if it breaks in a big way, it breaks badly, however this is pretty rare. Most of the time (95%) it's apps crashing and leaving bad prefs lying around, or software not being kept up to date. If you are familiar with MacOS diagnosing it is pretty straightforward. Especially if you keep tabs on the person's machine and tell them not mess with the System.

In general, if OS'es switch to signing/MD5'ing preferences and keeping backups, and in general, stopping users from messing with the application files, a sizeable amount of the wierd stuff that happens on a PC/Mac would be trackable and preventable.

http://wsmanager.sourceforge.net/

Its not listed on versiontracker.com. Its free its opensource and it great! (haven't tested it with panther tho).

I do not really get what you mean.
There is an upgrade path if you wish to go that way. It is called a CPU upgrade PCI card. You CAN upgrade your CPU, you CAN upgrade your video card, you CAN upgrade other things in your computer. You CAN get USB and FireWire preipherals. Heck you can even go out and buy another motherboard from an apple parts store if you wish. It is more worthwhile though to just buy a new computer. If you get a computer from Dell, Gateway, IBM et al, there is no real upgrade path. The only upgrade path is if you make a computer from scratch and you just upgrade components as you see fit. However that can be a nightmare. I had a friend who bought a new modem for his homebrewed x86 machine and it did not work with his motherboard. Then he bought a new motherboard, and a new processor chip (figured "hey what the hell, I am buying a new MB so why not upgrade my processor?"). The old RAM did not work with the new MB so he bought more RAM to put in his new MB.

He spent a lot of dough just because he bought a new modem... personally I would much rather buy a new mac and either (1) canibalize parts from my old mac (video card, HD, DVD, etc) and put it in my new mac, or (2) just have both computers side by side with a monitor switcher box and use both simultaneously for different purposes, or (3) cluster both machines and get the most out of it.


The botton line is that PCs aren't as cost effective as you might think, unless you REALLY plan ahead and make your own from scratch and you try to figure out all the incompatibilities ahead of time. I have a 3.5 year old mac at home and the only 2 upgrades that I got for it in the time that I have owned it was an external 30GB HD and RAM (total cost: 450USD). Not bad eh?

Although I don't agree with some of the feature comparisons, for those that have never used OS X (or XP), here is a rather good OS X vs XP feature comparison:
http://www.xvsxp.com/

My original comment was directed at the interview itself: He lists a number of operating systems that he has used, but the interview is so insubstantial that I had no reason to believe it. And when I said "all the Windows versions," I meant all of the versions he lists, my Aussie friend.

I don't have a problem with anyone's choice of technology. The thing that seems curious to me is that someone can conceivably just sit in front of a computer, mouve the mouse around a little, and then say "Oh, I've used that."

Technically this may be acceptable from a "Joe User" point-of-view, and a fair assessment of a system. But I'm not expecting anyone to manage a network or work with a development platform. I just think they should live with a system for a little while and get to know it.

I have to agree that managing Windows networks is a good way to cultivate an interest in the alternatives, although the newer versions may be more agreeable. But if you represent yourself as an ordinary user who prefers a certain platform and has experienced others, I hope by "experience" you mean actually used them for a little while to do the kind of work you ordinarily do. Then your thoughts might be a bit more insightful to me, although that may not be necessary to convince someone else who is looking to buy some hardware.

Probably because for most of them, and most of the time, it's true? It has been for me.

As for "switch", if you have a better word, it will be welcome.

"Although I don't agree with some of the feature comparisons, for those that have never used OS X (or XP), here is a rather good OS X vs XP feature comparison:
http://www.xvsxp.com/"

Pretty good... now can we get add a couple of columns for SuSE, Mandrake and some other workable Linux distros... I'd LOVE to read that.

Jb

Sorry Mini-Me but you are wrong. I used to be a PC/Server manufacturer/systems integrator. I know they are cheaper. Doesnt matter if its Dell or Gateway either. x86 is built on standards like ATX etc. I change out my motherboard and cpu once a year with a good value chip for about 2 to 300 bucks tops. I upgrade memory every 2 to 3 years or as needed for very little money. I upgrade my video card for gaming purposes only every 2 years or so and prices can vary on those. Every once and a while I might need to upgrade a power supply or just get a new chassis....also less than 100 bucks. I can do all of this on a Dell or Gateway system just as I do on my own custom built system. How many Mac users can do that with their Mac hardware and at those prices? Its so expensive to upgrade a Mac that youre best bet is milking your outdated stuff as long as possible before buying a new one. Lets not forget that anyone can also build or buy a high speed x86 desktop for half the price of a good Mac. If not half the price.....still much less.

Since this is an upgrade path, software is also important. Apple doesnt offer an upgrade to Panther. Nope you want it, you have to shell out over 120 bucks for a new point release. Im also hearing that Panther is not doing so well with backwards compatibility to 10.2 apps either. I have 2 desktops at home, one runs Gentoo Linux and the other is XP for my gaming rig. Gentoo costs me nothing obviously and XP was paid for a long time ago and wont cost me another dime til Longhorn in 2006. In the meantime I get XP security updates, service packs and other point release type updates from MS for free. When Longhorn does finally ship the upgrade will cost about 1/2 what Apple charges.

And the final point Id like to make again is this: At the end of the day I can still do more for less on x86 than on a Mac. I use my computer for IM, email, web design stuff, development, internet surfing, gaming, and the occasional word processing or spreadsheet doc. I have no doubt that OSX is the prettiest and most polished desktop OS out there, but its not worth thousands more to be able to do the exact same things and without support for DirectX games.

There is nothing wrong with liking your Mac, of course, but "It just works" is an ad slogan and in no way describes the way a computer functions. Certainly there are better words to describe your interactions with Apple products. The fact that some people repeat these words incessantly is disturbing. Imagine someone liking, for example, Campbell soup and describing it to everyone they know as being "mmm...mmm...good". It brings memories back from the "Stepford Wives" movie.

The "Switch" campaign is plastered all over Apple's website, thus it is a prime example of terms frequently over used by their most ardent supporters.

"Imagine someone liking, for example, Campbell soup and describing it to everyone they know as being "mmm...mmm...good"

rofl....thats the PERFECT analagy

Macs are so good that they even http://news.com.com/2100-1045_3-5099878.html?tag=nefd_top">erase without you even having to ask!

Jace...first off, I read the post BEFORE the one in which you mention the G4...second...the get a new machine comment was based on the assumption that you were running older hardware LIKE A BEIGE G3!!

as for you claiming your problems...well, if you are running OS X on an oldr machine that was not built with that OS in mind, then get a new machine!!!


I run an Old G4...I have a G4 AGP 400 MHz power mac. it has a DVD-RAM in it. it is going on 5 years old now. OS X runs fine on her, so you either have:

1)a weird set-up with hackware runing
2)are using cheapo RAM sticks, and yes that does cause Crashing if you have bad RAM in any OS.
3)you box was hit by a power serge, and the power surge has damaged your Power supply which in turn is cause ing all sorts of problems resulting in crashes.

IMO, you have a hardware problem, either from faulty hardware purchased by you, or a damaged piece of hardware caused by a power surge that got through your protector.

I never entered a Mac vs. Windows "flame war" before because I think the whole matter stupid as hell. I won't buy a Mac not because I "hate" Macs but because I have a deep dislike for proprietary hardware. The fact that you have to buy everything from Apple just turns me off. THAT'S a monopoly if I ever saw one!

Now, on BSOD's, I think it's funny that people keep blaming MS for BSOD's when in more than 90% of the cases the problem lies in dodgy hardware (usually MB / Mem combos). Sure, XP is not bullet-proof when it comes to crashes, but neither is Linux (from MY experience), especially when you are in a hurry and have to wait for the computer to de-freeze (don't press the reset button or you can say goodbye to a lot of data). I am currently using a "custom-built" PC, to MY specification, and I didn't have a crash for almost a year (some freezing, but I never needed to reboot) in both XP and Linux! It's all up to the hardware! Macs will (obviously) crash less because the number of parts is far lower and the QA is done by Apple and they have no excuse for including dodgy parts at the price range they sell.

I have no doubt that OSX is the prettiest and most polished desktop OS out there, but its not worth thousands more to be able to do the exact same things and without support for DirectX games.

I agree that gaming would be an issue for me as well. That's why I would never have a Mac as my primary computer. However, there are quite a few major games with Mac support. All of Blizzard's games come with PC/Mac versions out-of-the-box. Also, Aspyr (http://www.aspyr.com/games.php/mac/) officially ports a lot of games to the Mac. Splinter Cell, Jedi Knight 2, C&C Generals, Rainbow Six 3, and several others have official Mac support through Aspyr ports.

While it's nothing close to the library of games available for PC, you must admit the lineup isn't terrible.

Everything on the Mac is standard as well, with the exception of the motherboard. Apple manufactures that, but Video Cards, RAM, etc are just run of the mill products foumnd

I was surprised when I went to the Apple store on line and checked out the 3rd party software section, just how many games they have!!!

way more than they had a few years ago,

No, I am not trying to, as people put it, 'spout Apple Marketing Slogans', but merely point out that Hell will indeed freeze over before any form of agreements are reached here.
Apple love their Macs and will say so.
Wintel people love their games and will never switch,
Linux and other Open Source people are 99% computer geeks and will never understand that most people don't want to write their own software and/or OS. Or tweak it etc.

Anyways (being a Mac user) i will continue using my TiBook, and long for my OS X.3 upgrade, try to switch my friends and co-workers (rather successfully) and help my Windows using friends with their defragmentations, reinstalls etc.

Let the hot winds of the Flames fly! HELL WILL NOT FREEZE OVER

I love to read about all the dumb things wintel lovers say about Macs. My favorite is always the COST issue!

"Macs cost too much… I would rather pay off my car…".

I don't know what world you wintel people live in but wintels are not cheep! There are cheep computers that have a cheep OS (XP home edition) but I hope you're not comparing these junk computers to real ones.

Take this test.

#1. Go to the Dell web site and price out a good workstation.
#2. Go to the Apple web site and price a good workstation. (G5)

Wintels are price in the same ballpark and when you get down to "brass tacks" more often than not wintels are more $$$$ or you get more on a Mac at the same price.

What gives wintel lovers?

W

I've noticed that Macs and MacOSX tend to promote themselves. People are really enthusiastic about the OS and hardware weather they have a Mac or not.

People switching to Macs tend to be extremely loyal and a lot of people don't understand where this loyalty comes from which goes to show just how strong the brand is.

People aren't being brainwashed. Mac owners generally like their systems and PC owners are generally indifferent to unenthusiastic about PCs.

Its the perfect example of a good product promoting itself. It applies to Dells and IBM laptops so I don't see what people are perplexed by how loyal Mac owners are. They really like the brand.

Two quick points.

1) OS X has a good UI built on UNIX foundation. The UNIX underneath is still as complex and fun as ever (mostly). They have not yet made UNIX easy to use except in its simplest forms. This is ok for most situations.

2) Am starting to admire Microsoft :| Yes, Gates and Balmer still sound like Gates and Balmer, plus the world wide legal hassles are well deserved. But it seems that little things are starting to creap into the rhetoric that indicates they may be listening. Just a little. Cool.