Linked by David Adams on Thu 29th Sep 2011 23:47 UTC, submitted by lucas_maximus
Linux Linux is struggling on the desktop because it only has a small number of "great" apps, according to the Gnome co-creator. Miguel de Icaza, co-creator of the Gnome desktop, told tech journalist Tim Anderson at the recent Windows 8 Build conference "When you count how many great desktop apps there are on Linux, you can probably name 10," de Icaza said, according to a post on Anderson's IT Writing blog. "You work really hard, you can probably name 20. We've managed to p*** off developers every step of the way, breaking APIs all the time."
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Misleading article title
by BeamishBoy on Fri 30th Sep 2011 00:07 UTC
BeamishBoy
Member since:
2010-10-27

The title of the article really misses the point of what Miguel said. The actual substance of the story, as far as I can see, comes in two separate points.

First, he's making a point about how Linux's open-source nature has led to fragmentation of APIs on the desktop. This is a perfectly valid complaint. In an ecosystem where there are many competing window managers for Linux, not to mention vastly more competing distributions (all of which are different and none of which are dominant), you're bound to run into obstacles to producing truly great desktop apps.

However, the second point I take from the story is one that Miguel actually seems to miss. For a long time now we've been moving towards a situation where many of the most important desktop applications are actually quite platform agnostic. In part, this has been fuelled by a drive for portability in code that's proved largely successful. Lately we've seen the process accelerated by loads of new platforms being released, each of which competes with traditional desktops, but on which users still want to have available their favourite applications. Platform agnosticism for desktop apps is a really, really good thing.

Personally speaking, of the eight or nine desktop apps I use daily, only one (Visual Studio) doesn't run on Linux. Everything else (Matlab, R, Eclipse, emacs, various compilers for C/C++/Scala/Erlang, etc) works just as happily on Linux as it does on Windows or Mac, so for me the fact that there aren't any truly great Linux-only desktop apps is an irrelevance.

Reply Score: 13

RE: Misleading article title
by ngaio on Fri 30th Sep 2011 00:29 UTC in reply to "Misleading article title"
ngaio Member since:
2005-10-06

I'm not disputing what you're saying with respect to the complexity that comes with different options on the Linux desktop, but I do recall Miguel talking in the past about the need for Gnome to keep legacy APIs in place so that applications written years ago can still run without modification today. Perhaps his point was that Gnome is a moving target.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Misleading article title
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 01:30 UTC in reply to "RE: Misleading article title"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I do recall Miguel talking in the past about the need for Gnome to keep legacy APIs in place so that applications written years ago can still run without modification today. Perhaps his point was that Gnome is a moving target.


I have some help for Miguel to find freedom software applications:

http://www.fsf.org/news/directory-relaunch

Free Software Foundation re-launches its Free Software Directory, with over 6500 programs listed

Unfrotunately, both Miguel and the Free Software Foundation tend very much to utterly ignore KDE and Qt applications, which are easily amongst the best free software desktop applications available today.

I can perhaps help there, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_KDE_applications

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Software_that_uses_Qt

KDE also features platform abstraction layers such as Phonon and Solid, which effectively will allow applications written (or updated) in the past few years to still run without modification in many years time.

Miguel: "You work really hard, you can probably name 20. We've managed to p*** off developers every step of the way, breaking APIs all the time."

Hey Miguel, I can easily find hundreds of great free software desktop applications. I can even find a great sub-set of these applications (outside of GNOME) which work with an abstraction layer to avoid API breakage!

Enjoy!

Edited 2011-09-30 01:35 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Misleading article title
by twitterfire on Fri 30th Sep 2011 01:38 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Misleading article title"
twitterfire Member since:
2008-09-11

"I do recall Miguel talking in the past about the need for Gnome to keep legacy APIs in place so that applications written years ago can still run without modification today. Perhaps his point was that Gnome is a moving target.


I have some help for Miguel to find freedom software applications:

http://www.fsf.org/news/directory-relaunch

Free Software Foundation re-launches its Free Software Directory, with over 6500 programs listed

Unfrotunately, both Miguel and the Free Software Foundation tend very much to utterly ignore KDE and Qt applications, which are easily amongst the best free software desktop applications available today.

I can perhaps help there, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_KDE_applications

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Software_that_uses_Qt

KDE also features platform abstraction layers such as Phonon and Solid, which effectively will allow applications written (or updated) in the past few years to still run without modification in many years time.

Miguel: "You work really hard, you can probably name 20. We've managed to p*** off developers every step of the way, breaking APIs all the time."

Hey Miguel, I can easily find hundreds of great free software desktop applications. I can even find a great sub-set of these applications (outside of GNOME) which work with an abstraction layer to avoid API breakage!

Enjoy!
"

I can't even name 5 good linux GUI applications.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Misleading article title
by Lennie on Fri 30th Sep 2011 09:22 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Misleading article title"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

So what is a good really succesful Windows application these days ?

Photoshop ? Ohh, no, that also works on Mac OS X
Microsoft Office ? Ohh, same as Photoshop.
Firefox/Chrome, platform independent, even less of a Windows application.

Games ? They are not really GUI apps are they ?

I'm a terrible desktop user, so I wouldn't know.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Misleading article title
by JAlexoid on Fri 30th Sep 2011 14:39 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Misleading article title"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Well... Lack of Games just shows that the only party interested in PC gaming was Microsoft. OpenGL was really stuck in 1990-ies for far too long, due to all those squabbles in the community.
Granted, it's not actually FOSS community's fault, but lack of interest in the matter has always been "strange" for me. Only with emergence of mobile OpenGL we start seeing some interest in 3D graphics that don't rely on D3D. Not to mention that current Linux graphics stack is a total resource hog*.

* - If you disagree, then tell me why my powerful desktop box with latest nVidia drivers(which are quite good on Linux) uses 2x more CPU to project any video onto the screen, than Windows(anything post XP) installed on an Atom N270?

PS: I'm on Ubutnu for 4 years now and quite literally hate Win7 and that mess that is it's UI.

Reply Score: 2

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

Wasn't the issue with GL that it started under proprietary development stagnated by it's parent company allowing DirectX to replace it and dominate game development?

Reply Score: 3

JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Wasn't my point... My point was that no-one cared about it enough to offer a competing open-source thing.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Misleading article title
by dnebdal on Fri 30th Sep 2011 18:34 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Misleading article title"
dnebdal Member since:
2008-08-27


Not to mention that current Linux graphics stack is a total resource hog*.

* - If you disagree, then tell me why my powerful desktop box with latest nVidia drivers(which are quite good on Linux) uses 2x more CPU to project any video onto the screen, than Windows(anything post XP) installed on an Atom N270?


It could be that the windows side does more on the GPU than the Linux side? The hogginess of the display layer isn't the most important factor if the Windows side does more of the actual video decoding on the GPU.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Misleading article title
by JAlexoid on Fri 30th Sep 2011 22:58 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Misleading article title"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

If I were stupid, I would have tested it with an accelerated video format. But since I'm not, I tested with universally unaccelerated WebM.
Why does it take 20% of a CPU core to project a video stream in X? It's not the constant % of CPU X uses, but the jump while playing video...
On Atom N270 with GMA950 anything in 720p and up is not even worth trying in Linux, while Windows manages to play 720p files, without any acceleration.

PS: Windows XP does not do it's graphics on the GPU. And I tested with Win7 and WinXP.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: KDE & QT
by ngaio on Fri 30th Sep 2011 01:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Misleading article title"
ngaio Member since:
2005-10-06

I like Quanta Plus. I've used it for many years. It has many strengths. It is no longer part of the KDE family. There is no replacement. Effectively its legs have been cut off from under it, and it's been taken to the graveyard to starve to death. Not cool.

Plus, please remember it's not about how many applications there are -- it's all about the quality. Miguel has very high standards. (Yet it must be noted he is extremely generous and welcoming towards code contributors).

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: KDE & QT
by roverrobot on Fri 30th Sep 2011 02:34 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: KDE & QT"
roverrobot Member since:
2006-07-23

Miguel has very high standards.


hahahaha....

Oh, you are serious? Which piece of software that Mr high standard have created is not buggy and bloated?

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: KDE & QT
by manjabes on Fri 30th Sep 2011 05:58 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: KDE & QT"
manjabes Member since:
2005-08-27

Plus, please remember it's not about how many applications there are -- it's all about the quality.


This. A thousand times this.

Not a 73rd shitty iTunes clone!

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: KDE & QT
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 06:03 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: KDE & QT"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"Plus, please remember it's not about how many applications there are -- it's all about the quality.
This. A thousand times this. Not a 73rd shitty iTunes clone! "

Agreed. For a given application type, we only need one desktop application for Linux to be better than the alternatives for Windows in order to have a Linux desktop application that is best-of-breed.

The fact that very often there are several Linux desktop applications for any given purpose that are all better than the best application for the same purpose on Windows doesn't really help all that much.

Edited 2011-09-30 06:06 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: KDE & QT
by manjabes on Fri 30th Sep 2011 06:13 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: KDE & QT"
manjabes Member since:
2005-08-27

The fact that very often there are several Linux desktop applications for any given purpose that are all better than the best application for the same purpose on Windows doesn't really help all that much.


I'd very much like to live in your fantasy-land, but I've yet to come across a Linux desktop app that's better than the best Windows counterpart. All I see are several half-hearted clones.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: KDE & QT
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 06:23 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: KDE & QT"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

" The fact that very often there are several Linux desktop applications for any given purpose that are all better than the best application for the same purpose on Windows doesn't really help all that much.
I'd very much like to live in your fantasy-land, but I've yet to come across a Linux desktop app that's better than the best Windows counterpart. All I see are several half-hearted clones. "

None of the applications on my list has any code whatsoever in common with a predecessor Windows application. There has been no cloning here.

In order to establish your claim, you need to start by naming one Windows-only app, of a similar scope and purpose as any on my list, that is arguably better than the app on my list. Then we can perhaps look at the possibility that you may have a point.

Before you do that, however, you are only blowing hot air.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: KDE & QT
by JAlexoid on Fri 30th Sep 2011 14:43 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: KDE & QT"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

If it's an iTunes clone, then sh***y is the best they can do.

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: KDE & QT - Itunes
by jabbotts on Fri 30th Sep 2011 16:52 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: KDE & QT"
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

Not all of us like the bloated POS that is Itunes with each update managing to find new ways to add more UI clutter. Oh, has Itunes managed to add custom library naming yet? I'd really like to have my Itunes media library organized on the drive in a more rational way. For example, my music in;

<libarary root>/<album>/<album> <track#> <artist> <tracktitle>.ext

Far as I can tell, Itunes does all it can to mash the actual file structure in the library to avoid things like using an alternative media player/manager to access the same libarary tree.

But damn is Itunes ever good at encrougating it's users to funnel more money back into Apple's profit margin. I guess it does achieve it's primary function better than any media related app on a Linux distro.

Reply Score: 4

RE[7]: KDE & QT - Itunes
by JAlexoid on Fri 30th Sep 2011 18:32 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: KDE & QT - Itunes"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

That's my point... If they're copying iTunes, then the best that can do is total crap, because iTunes is total crap.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: KDE & QT
by DMon on Fri 30th Sep 2011 20:26 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: KDE & QT"
DMon Member since:
2011-09-30

I prefer Rhythmbox to iTunes any day. Plug's that extend the functionality greatly and I can still watch much of my media from it. I only wish it did work on windows for the windows box I have.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: KDE & QT
by ngaio on Sat 1st Oct 2011 16:49 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: KDE & QT"
ngaio Member since:
2005-10-06

I like Quanta Plus. I've used it for many years. It has many strengths. It is no longer part of the KDE family. There is no replacement. Effectively its legs have been cut off from under it, and it's been taken to the graveyard to starve to death. Not cool.


I'm happy to be wrong. It seems Quanta Plus is being resurrected in the form of a plugin for kdevelop:

http://alien.slackbook.org/blog/quanta-plus-for-kde4/

This is excellent news. I hope it works out.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Misleading article title
by Slambert666 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 02:47 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Misleading article title"
Slambert666 Member since:
2008-10-30

Hey Miguel, I can easily find hundreds of great free software desktop applications.


Yes, linux has so many great applications that users are flocking to it in great numbers........

The truth of the matter is that there is a handful of half-assed applications that works some of the time and then you update you system and another set of half-assed apps works.

This is not a good situation and users do generally not have great patience with it. The most idealistic of users stay with the system for about 6 months then go :f**k it....

Linux developers needs to listen to Miguel a lot more because he is talking sense.

Step 1: Make it easy to program for Linux, using modern programming languages.

Step 2: Provide stable API's and ABI's so that programs will work for a long time without excessive maintenance.

Step 3: Test the programs before releasing.

It seems that everyone involved with free software has a Lisus Thorvalds in the stomach and wants to single-handedly f**k the system up.
Please stop that!

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Misleading article title
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 03:11 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Misleading article title"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"Hey Miguel, I can easily find hundreds of great free software desktop applications.
Yes, linux has so many great applications that users are flocking to it in great numbers........ The truth of the matter is that there is a handful of half-assed applications that works some of the time and then you update you system and another set of half-assed apps works. This is not a good situation and users do generally not have great patience with it. The most idealistic of users stay with the system for about 6 months then go :f**k it.... "

Unsupported claims. You saying something does not make it so.

Linux developers needs to listen to Miguel a lot more because he is talking sense. Step 1: Make it easy to program for Linux, using modern programming languages. Step 2: Provide stable API's and ABI's so that programs will work for a long time without excessive maintenance. Step 3: Test the programs before releasing.


Freedom software doesn't require a stable ABI.

As for the rest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_Quick

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_Creator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_%28programming_language~*~@...

It seems that everyone involved with free software has a Lisus Thorvalds in the stomach and wants to single-handedly f**k the system up. Please stop that!


WTF?

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Misleading article title
by oinet on Fri 30th Sep 2011 07:13 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Misleading article title"
oinet Member since:
2010-03-23

Freedom software doesn't require a stable ABI.


1) Good thing then that Windows does or WINE users would be very sorry.
2) It better do, or I won't (ever) join the rebellion..
3) ..and neither will the dial-up world..

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Misleading article title
by Slambert666 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:46 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Misleading article title"
Slambert666 Member since:
2008-10-30

WTF?


Linus Thorvalds ....

Reply Score: 1

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Good software does.

Developers do not like trying to hit a moving target. We like to deploy and forget one everything is working ... we don't like to fix thing when someone else has broken them.

If people need to then give us warning and depreciate accordingly.

Churn is good for nobody.

Edited 2011-09-30 21:32 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Misleading article title
by Stephen! on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:13 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Misleading article title"
Stephen! Member since:
2007-11-24

Yes, linux has so many great applications that users are flocking to it in great numbers........


Then again, it's not as if Apple really fares that much better, given the marketshare of OSX compared to Windows.

Edited 2011-09-30 10:14 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Misleading article title
by CodeMonkey on Fri 30th Sep 2011 12:46 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Misleading article title"
CodeMonkey Member since:
2005-09-22

Step 1: Make it easy to program for Linux, using modern programming languages.


Last time I checked any programming language you can imagine usually gets Linux support first before anything else. As far as "modern" languages go:

C++11, Java7, Python3, Ruby19, Haskell, ..., etc.

If you're definition of "Modern" programming languages only consists of the latest and greatest iteration of C# then I guess I can see your point. But if you actually consider other modern languages then Linux definitely leads the pack in supported platforms.

Reply Score: 7

RE[5]: Misleading article title
by Slambert666 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 14:08 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Misleading article title"
Slambert666 Member since:
2008-10-30

C++11, Java7, Python3, Ruby19, Haskell, ..., etc.


On that list only C++ is useful for making desktop apps.

What about Step 2 and 3? you forgot about them.

Reply Score: 1

TemporalBeing Member since:
2007-08-22

"Step 1: Make it easy to program for Linux, using modern programming languages.


Last time I checked any programming language you can imagine usually gets Linux support first before anything else. As far as "modern" languages go:

C++11, Java7, Python3, Ruby19, Haskell, ..., etc.

If you're definition of "Modern" programming languages only consists of the latest and greatest iteration of C# then I guess I can see your point. But if you actually consider other modern languages then Linux definitely leads the pack in supported platforms.
"

Just a slight correctino - if they considered a "Modern" programming language anything that comes from Microsoft (which would include C#) then I can concede point.

However, most "Modern" programming languages do not come from Microsoft, but from the other 99.999999999999% percent of the world.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Misleading article title
by JAlexoid on Fri 30th Sep 2011 14:55 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Misleading article title"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

So.... Microsoft has only 0.00007 person?

Reply Score: 2

TemporalBeing Member since:
2007-08-22

So.... Microsoft has only 0.00007 person?


No, Microsoft itself is only 0.000000000001% of the population of the planet.

Reply Score: 2

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

"Step 1: Make it easy to program for Linux, using modern programming languages.


Last time I checked any programming language you can imagine usually gets Linux support first before anything else. As far as "modern" languages go:

C++11, Java7, Python3, Ruby19, Haskell, ..., etc.

If you're definition of "Modern" programming languages only consists of the latest and greatest iteration of C# then I guess I can see your point. But if you actually consider other modern languages then Linux definitely leads the pack in supported platforms.
"

He might be thinking of a Visual Studio experience where almost everything were integrated. While I am not a developer in a sense of using Linux as my tools, I understand that Linux' dev tools are great, but not integrated. Ubuntu's quickly I think is an attempt to address this issue.

Reply Score: 1

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

Update breakage or lack there of tends to be a competitive attribute between distributions. What distribution are you using that breaks applications with each update and why haven't you considered using a better managed distribution?

Reply Score: 1

twitterfire Member since:
2008-09-11


Linux developers needs to listen to Miguel a lot more because he is talking sense.

Step 1: Make it easy to program for Linux, using modern programming languages.

Step 2: Provide stable API's and ABI's so that programs will work for a long time without excessive maintenance.

Step 3: Test the programs before releasing.



Step 4: Focus on a toolkit not 100, focus on a single graphics stack not 100, focus at a single app/app group. No need to reinvent the wheel 1000 times.

Step 5: Use some good programming languages. Python and Shell Scripting aren't for general software development, really. They are for frustrated foss enthusiasts too lazy/incapable to learn something actually good for desktop/system programming.

Step 6: Try to implement a good system architecture. I.e. ALSA is a mess, X11 is a mess, Pulse Audio is a mess, HAL is a mess, Init is a mess, CUPS is a mess, udev is a mess.

Step 7: If ain't good, don't release it. The world doesn't need yet another window manager, yet another text editor, and so on. The fact that you can apt-get or yum install everything from a central repository doesn't make for the fact of that repository being full of crapware.

Step 8: Optimize, make it work. Too much slowness, too many crashes.

Step 9: Stable API, Stable ABI.

Step 10: Stable API, Stable ABI.

....................................................

Step 1000: Stable API, Stable ABI.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Misleading article title
by WorknMan on Sat 1st Oct 2011 02:18 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Misleading article title"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

Step 5: Use some good programming languages. Python and Shell Scripting aren't for general software development, really. They are for frustrated foss enthusiasts too lazy/incapable to learn something actually good for desktop/system programming.


Better yet, make your API/toolkit language-agnostic, so I can use whatever the hell I want to program in, and then compile down to a native executable, no matter what language I choose.

On Windows, my language of choice is actually AutoIt. It's probably got 1/10th the power of perl or python, but does everything I need it to do 95% of the time, and can generate small, native .exe files.

Edited 2011-10-01 02:19 UTC

Reply Score: 3

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Step 4: Focus on a toolkit not 100


For all practicalpurposes there are only two: qt and gtk.

focus on a single graphics stack not 100


There aren't hundred graphics stacks.

Python and Shell Scripting aren't for general software development, really.


No? Way to show your ignorance. That's like saying VB.net is not a language for real development.

They are for frustrated foss enthusiasts too lazy/incapable to learn something actually good for desktop/system programming.


It's obvious that you've never used either and really, no-one is using shell as a desktop programming language. Python's just fine though.

If ain't good, don't release it.

Well, I guess it would be good to do something the commercial development houses do not.

Reply Score: 5

demetrioussharpe Member since:
2009-01-09


Hey Miguel, I can easily find hundreds of great free software desktop applications. I can even find a great sub-set of these applications (outside of GNOME) which work with an abstraction layer to avoid API breakage!


And yet, how many of these apps are truly great & how many are just repeatedly called great without actually being so?

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Misleading article title
by Wafflez on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:40 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Misleading article title"
Wafflez Member since:
2011-06-26

Personally, i know only one good Linux desktop program - Amarok 1.4
Amarok 2 and foobar are just crap compared to this masterpiece. ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Misleading article title
by Fergy on Fri 30th Sep 2011 19:49 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Misleading article title"
Fergy Member since:
2006-04-10

Personally, i know only one good Linux desktop program - Amarok 1.4
Amarok 2 and foobar are just crap compared to this masterpiece. ;)

I can't imagine how you can call foobar crap... Especially when you can call anything with the name Amarok a masterpiece...

Edited 2011-09-30 19:49 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Johann Chua Member since:
2005-07-22

What does the name have to do with anything?

Reply Score: 3

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

"I do recall Miguel talking in the past about the need for Gnome to keep legacy APIs in place so that applications written years ago can still run without modification today. Perhaps his point was that Gnome is a moving target.


I have some help for Miguel to find freedom software applications:

http://www.fsf.org/news/directory-relaunch

Free Software Foundation re-launches its Free Software Directory, with over 6500 programs listed

Unfrotunately, both Miguel and the Free Software Foundation tend very much to utterly ignore KDE and Qt applications, which are easily amongst the best free software desktop applications available today.

I can perhaps help there, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_KDE_applications

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Software_that_uses_Qt

KDE also features platform abstraction layers such as Phonon and Solid, which effectively will allow applications written (or updated) in the past few years to still run without modification in many years time.

Miguel: "You work really hard, you can probably name 20. We've managed to p*** off developers every step of the way, breaking APIs all the time."

Hey Miguel, I can easily find hundreds of great free software desktop applications. I can even find a great sub-set of these applications (outside of GNOME) which work with an abstraction layer to avoid API breakage!

Enjoy!
"

Please also consider the number of users of those existing applications in your DE(GNOME/KDE).

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Misleading article title
by jyper on Mon 3rd Oct 2011 09:42 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Misleading article title"
jyper Member since:
2011-10-03

Free Software Foundation re-launches its Free Software Directory, with over 6500 programs listed


I disagree with him but that is a very poor rebuttal(home many of those are good?). A better rebuttal would be to list specific good applications.

Edited 2011-10-03 09:42 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Misleading article title
by zima on Thu 6th Oct 2011 23:57 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Misleading article title"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

With "software that uses Qt" we have there Gadu Gadu for example... NVM how it isn't open, it is also a ridiculously bad (and not on a technical level, oh no, it's smooth there and easily among best open ones; it's just bad, in "concept") application you have never used.

You throw around lists of stuff you hardly use, or don't bother to compare them with other tools. "It's under KDE or Qt banner, therefore it's good" doesn't work, a lot of it is sub-par (and the DE itself tends to get in the way of doing things for some time now; luckily, even if XFCE looks like it might go the same way, there's a rapidly maturing LXDE for example)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Misleading article title
by Darkmage on Sat 1st Oct 2011 00:14 UTC in reply to "Misleading article title"
Darkmage Member since:
2006-10-20

Every single one of those applications is something which no normal person uses on a daily basis, just people in scientific/engineering fields. This is not the norm.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Misleading article title
by BeamishBoy on Sun 2nd Oct 2011 01:54 UTC in reply to "RE: Misleading article title"
BeamishBoy Member since:
2010-10-27

Every single one of those applications is something which no normal person uses on a daily basis, just people in scientific/engineering fields. This is not the norm.


All of this is true. But it's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

The reason is quite simple. A desktop application can be considered "great" based on one single criteria: how good it is at its intended purpose. It doesn't matter one little bit whether it's a music player, a web browser, or an application for scientific computing. If it's head and shoulders above the competition, it may legitimately be considered as being great.

The fact that the applications I mentioned are all of a statistical/comp-sci nature is irrelevant. Each of them (with the exception, perhaps, of the compilers) is an example of a truly great desktop application. And all of them (with the exception of Visual Studio) are truly great platform-agnostic applications.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Misleading article title
by allanregistos on Mon 3rd Oct 2011 04:23 UTC in reply to "Misleading article title"
allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

The title of the article really misses the point of what Miguel said. The actual substance of the story, as far as I can see, comes in two separate points.

First, he's making a point about how Linux's open-source nature has led to fragmentation of APIs on the desktop. This is a perfectly valid complaint. In an ecosystem where there are many competing window managers for Linux, not to mention vastly more competing distributions (all of which are different and none of which are dominant), you're bound to run into obstacles to producing truly great desktop apps.

However, the second point I take from the story is one that Miguel actually seems to miss. For a long time now we've been moving towards a situation where many of the most important desktop applications are actually quite platform agnostic. In part, this has been fuelled by a drive for portability in code that's proved largely successful. Lately we've seen the process accelerated by loads of new platforms being released, each of which competes with traditional desktops, but on which users still want to have available their favourite applications. Platform agnosticism for desktop apps is a really, really good thing.

Personally speaking, of the eight or nine desktop apps I use daily, only one (Visual Studio) doesn't run on Linux. Everything else (Matlab, R, Eclipse, emacs, various compilers for C/C++/Scala/Erlang, etc) works just as happily on Linux as it does on Windows or Mac, so for me the fact that there aren't any truly great Linux-only desktop apps is an irrelevance.

You reasons here are also one of the reasons why Linux failed to achieve large applications database. Talk to graphic artists, if Desktop Linux is feasible just to show you an example.

Reply Score: 1

v Comment by Luminair
by Luminair on Fri 30th Sep 2011 00:11 UTC
This time the spirit got through
by dionicio on Fri 30th Sep 2011 00:36 UTC
dionicio
Member since:
2006-07-12

Really this time
Miguel has spoken
the whispering of the spirit.

Reply Score: 2

jscipione Member since:
2009-08-22

Really true this time
Whispering of the spirit
Miguel has spoken

FTFY

Reply Score: 2

The bottom line
by dionicio on Fri 30th Sep 2011 14:33 UTC in reply to "This time the spirit got through"
dionicio Member since:
2006-07-12

"To be honest, with Linux on the desktop,
the benefits of open source
have really played against Linux on the desktop
in that we keep breaking things."
...
"We’ve managed to piss off developers
every step of the way,
breaking APIs all the time."
...
"I’m heartbroken, that’s the bottom line."

Reply Score: 1

RE: The bottom line
by Soulbender on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:36 UTC in reply to "The bottom line"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"I’m heartbroken, that’s the bottom line."

Guess he should have done a better job with GNOME, eh?

Reply Score: 4

Gnome is a great and gigantic comunity
by dionicio on Fri 30th Sep 2011 17:49 UTC in reply to "RE: The bottom line"
dionicio Member since:
2006-07-12

I am sure Miguel made his point at the key moments.

Reply Score: 1

dionicio Member since:
2006-07-12

Solid and stabilized API's upon wich
(desktop) app programmers could build on.

That is the pain
Miguel is talking about.

Even on natural languages,
one of the last human dominions
not overtaken by exchange paradigms
solid an stabilizad API's
are a prerequisite of popularity.

Reply Score: 2

After hour
by dionicio on Fri 30th Sep 2011 23:09 UTC in reply to "This time the spirit got through"
dionicio Member since:
2006-07-12

Programming for the PC an Mac Desktops
http://i.imgur.com/UX2Lw.png

Programing for the Linux Desktops
http://www.tumblr.com/photo/1280/10771621287/1/tumblr_lrb6w3Q4jh1qm...

Have a good weekend you all
:)

Reply Score: 0

He's right
by Eugenia on Fri 30th Sep 2011 00:37 UTC
Eugenia
Member since:
2005-06-28

I agree with Miguel, he's 100% on the spot about this, as usual. I can probably name 10 really good GUI Linux apps, but then it starts getting difficult (and I used to run the original Gnomefiles.org, so I've tried lots of such apps). Even apps that might be seen as more "revolutionary" than Win/Mac apps, these are usually not ready for the prime time (crash too easily).

I'd say that my favorite GUI Linux app at this moment is Blender 2.5x. Not quite there yet for tracking and other movie-related CGI work, but for stand-alone animations it beats many commercial offerings with its new streamlined UI.

Second app would probably be GIMP, despite its usability problems. Still no actual good video editor though, after 10 years of looking (and yes, I've tried them all): crashy, slow, missing features, buggy codecs, terrible usability. Just bad.

Reply Score: 3

RE: He's right
by WorknMan on Fri 30th Sep 2011 01:13 UTC in reply to "He's right"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

I agree with Miguel, he's 100% on the spot about this, as usual.


Indeed he is. And the sad thing is that it has taken this long for him to realize it? Imagine how much further Linux could have progressed if they had figured this shit out in 2001 instead of now. Of course, it's not like us non-Linux users haven't been beating this drum for the past decade or more, but would anybody listen to us? Hell no. Why? Because obviously, having half a dozen desktop environments and 900 distros to choose from really IS a good thing ;)

As for the '10 good desktop apps thing', can you list 10 really good apps that DON'T run on Windows?

Edited 2011-09-30 01:13 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: He's right
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 01:54 UTC in reply to "RE: He's right"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

As for the '10 good desktop apps thing', can you list 10 really good apps that DON'T run on Windows?


Depends what you mean by "really good apps". I will interpret it as meaning apps that are at least as good, if not far better, as those currently used for the same purposes on Windows. OK, challenge accepted.

Plasma desktop
digikam
krita
k3b
kate
okular
dolphin
Kst
Amarok
qalculate

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: He's right
by stabbyjones on Fri 30th Sep 2011 02:21 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: He's right"
stabbyjones Member since:
2008-04-15

The question was asking for "10 really good apps" not 10 KDE packages.

There are plenty of awesome QT apps out there;
(http://packages.python.org/spyder/overview.html)

But parts of the KDE SC don't qualify as 'really good'.

Reply Score: 5

v RE[4]: He's right
by fast_rizwaan on Fri 30th Sep 2011 02:32 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: He's right"
RE[5]: He's right
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 02:40 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: He's right"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

very true, KDE apps are sub-par with QT apps. Microsoft owns nokia->QT->KDE. Obviously the master does not want 'competing' products from his slave Nokia->QT->KDE.


Qt is licensed under GPLv3 and LGPLv3.

It is a shame that Nokia succumbed to Microsoft's embrace and extinguish strategy, but, due mainly to the GPLv3, by no means does that mean the end of Qt.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: He's right
by juzzlin on Fri 30th Sep 2011 07:44 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He's right"
juzzlin Member since:
2011-05-06

Qt is licensed under GPLv3 and LGPLv3.

It is a shame that Nokia succumbed to Microsoft's embrace and extinguish strategy, but, due mainly to the GPLv3, by no means does that mean the end of Qt.


In my opinion Qt is still the best way to write portable software. And you can choose from C++, Python etc. I recently compiled Windows-binaries on Ubuntu simply by running Qt SDK under Wine and it just worked ;)

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: He's right
by Slambert666 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 02:53 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: He's right"
Slambert666 Member since:
2008-10-30

Obviously the master does not want 'competing' products from his slave Nokia->QT->KDE.


Yes... before the Microsoft, Nokia deal all KDE apps were perfect.

Then they f**ked it all up in just 2 months.....

Dude .............................

Reply Score: 4

v RE[6]: He's right
by fast_rizwaan on Fri 30th Sep 2011 04:36 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He's right"
RE[7]: He's right
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 04:55 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: He's right"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

KDE 4.7 still buggy Desktop! If not for the master.


KDE 4.7 isn't buggy.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: He's right
by kolmyo on Fri 30th Sep 2011 06:13 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: He's right"
kolmyo Member since:
2005-07-11

KDE 4.0 had great plans like solid, nepomuk, this, that... where are they, after nokia acquisition of trolltech? All became vaporware.


So your definition for vaporware seems to be "freely downloadable and completely functioning".

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: He's right
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 02:33 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: He's right"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

The question was asking for "10 really good apps" not 10 KDE packages.


No, it wasn't. The question was, and I quote: "can you list 10 really good apps that DON'T run on Windows?"

There are plenty of awesome QT apps out there; (http://packages.python.org/spyder/overview.html)


A fine application, but Python/Qt apps, such as the one you linked, do typically run on Windows.

YOU didn't answer the question.

But parts of the KDE SC don't qualify as 'really good'.


Why not? Especially the apps that are far better than the equivalent apps on Windows. Why exactly don't they qualify as as 'really good'?

What, we have app prejudice now? Go to the back of the bus, hey?

PS: a number of the apps I quoted are not part of the KDE SC.

Edited 2011-09-30 02:35 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Fascinating?
by zima on Thu 6th Oct 2011 23:38 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: He's right"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

The question was, and I quote: "can you list 10 really good apps that DON'T run on Windows?"

W8, W8, so it turns that you, apparently some big self-professed promoter of KDE, have so narrow view as to not even be aware than KDE applications are largely available for Windows? (certainly most of those which you list)

Not very popular there, there are typically better choices, but still they very much DO run on Windows...

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: He's right
by narcissus on Fri 30th Sep 2011 02:35 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: He's right"
narcissus Member since:
2005-07-06

"As for the '10 good desktop apps thing', can you list 10 really good apps that DON'T run on Windows?


Depends what you mean by "really good apps". I will interpret it as meaning apps that are at least as good, if not far better, as those currently used for the same purposes on Windows. OK, challenge accepted.

Plasma desktop
digikam
krita
k3b
kate
okular
dolphin
Kst
Amarok
qalculate
"

I have to second this list. I'm not sure what Mono Miguel is spewing about. What is "great"? Does he consider Mono great? (I know, it's not an "ap", but wtf? I also agree with what someone just posted the he's having a hard time listing 10 "great" windows apps.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: He's right
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 05:16 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: He's right"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"As for the '10 good desktop apps thing', can you list 10 really good apps that DON'T run on Windows?
Depends what you mean by "really good apps". I will interpret it as meaning apps that are at least as good, if not far better, as those currently used for the same purposes on Windows. OK, challenge accepted. Plasma desktop, digikam, krita, k3b, kate, okular, dolphin, Kst, Amarok, qalculate "

WTF? Why was this voted down? I listed 10 apps that don't run on Windows. All 10 are at least as good as any other equivalent app for other platforms for the same purpose.

A perfectly polite and concise answer to the question posed.

What on earth is going on with the downvoting?

Is there some point here that some people don't want others to know about, or something?

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: He's right
by Slambert666 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 06:09 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: He's right"
Slambert666 Member since:
2008-10-30

WTF? Why was this voted down? I listed 10 apps that don't run on Windows. All 10 are at least as good as any other equivalent app for other platforms for the same purpose.


Perhaps you were voted down for being delusional?

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: He's right
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 06:13 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: He's right"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"WTF? Why was this voted down? I listed 10 apps that don't run on Windows. All 10 are at least as good as any other equivalent app for other platforms for the same purpose.
Perhaps you were voted down for being delusional? "

That is not on the list of reasons for downvoting a post. Neither does it describe the post itself.

PS: In order to make a claim such as "delusional", you would first have to establish even a teeny tiny point. This you have utterly failed to do, I notice.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: He's right
by No it isnt on Fri 30th Sep 2011 09:24 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: He's right"
No it isnt Member since:
2005-11-14

My bet is that none of the downvoters have actually tested those apps.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: He's right
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:42 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He's right"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

My bet is that none of the downvoters have actually tested those apps.


My guess is that the downvoters are in denial that they have blown so much money on their Windows or Mac machine that they simply didn't have to.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: He's right
by dragossh on Sat 1st Oct 2011 11:24 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: He's right"
dragossh Member since:
2008-12-16

Or maybe they like things you don't? Shocking, I know!

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: He's right
by ephracis on Fri 30th Sep 2011 06:53 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: He's right"
ephracis Member since:
2007-09-23

All 10 are at least as good as any other equivalent app for other platforms for the same purpose.

No they are not, not in my opinion. You see, this "good" word is highly subjective. I for one don't want my screen blasted with the vomit that is Amarok or Dolphin.

But again, that's my highly personal opinion. You sir make it sound like your opinion is the truth. Maybe that pissed people off?

Just a guess, I didn't vote...

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: He's right
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 07:17 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: He's right"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

" All 10 are at least as good as any other equivalent app for other platforms for the same purpose.
No they are not, not in my opinion. You see, this "good" word is highly subjective. I for one don't want my screen blasted with the vomit that is Amarok or Dolphin. But again, that's my highly personal opinion. You sir make it sound like your opinion is the truth. Maybe that pissed people off? Just a guess, I didn't vote... "

Yours it is just as much an opinion. For example, I can set Dolphin to pretty much mimic exactly the way that Windows explorer looks and feels, and get it to do everything that Windows explorer does. You, however, can't get Windows explorer to have a split screen, or separate tabs, or to perform a batch re-name on a group of files, or to convert-as-it-copies from an audio CD to a set of .mp3 files on disk elsewhere (let alone a set of .ogg files on disk).

You might not like Amorak, and indeed I prefer Clementine myself but Clementine is not Linux-only. The point is, despite your opinion, I notice that you don't actually come up with a better Windows-only application that can match Amorak feature-for-feature (for example, Amorak's support of FLAC and Ogg Vorbis audio files, or its support of iPod personal media players, its support for lyrics and album covers and file metadata, all available in the one app).

After all, it is the Windows fanbois who are trying to claim that there are no good Linux desktop applications. All I have to do is demonstrate some of the desktop app features that equivalent Windows apps can't match, and my point stands. It doesn't depend on your like or dislike of Linux artwork.

Reply Score: 6

RE[6]: He's right
by clasqm on Fri 30th Sep 2011 07:36 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He's right"
clasqm Member since:
2010-09-23

After all, it is the Windows fanbois who are trying to claim that there are no good Linux desktop applications.


No it isn't. It's Miguel de Icaza. The guy who wrote Midnight Commander and Gnumeric. The guy who *founded* the Gnome project. I trhink he has earned the right to speak out on this subject..

Reply Score: 5

RE[6]: He's right
by ephracis on Fri 30th Sep 2011 07:44 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He's right"
ephracis Member since:
2007-09-23

Yours it is just as much an opinion.

Yes, it is. But I am very clear that my opinion is my opinion. In fact I even used the word "opinion" in my post to describe my opinion. You did not. Instead you are making it sound like your opinion ("this is good") is a fact. Just add "IMO" somewhere and I bet you won't piss as many people off.

For example, I can set Dolphin to pretty much mimic exactly the way that Windows explorer looks and feels

No, I would still feel and see the difference.

and get it to do everything that Windows explorer does.

I don't only judge apps based on what they can do. That's like judging singers based only on how they look... oh wait! ;)

You, however, can't get Windows explorer to have a split screen

or separate tabs

or to perform a batch re-name on a group of files

or to convert-as-it-copies from an audio CD to a set of .mp3 files on disk elsewhere (let alone a set of .ogg files on disk).

Nice, all features I don't really want or need. So in my opinion you are selling an ice cream cone which can fly. Why would I want it to fly?

The point is, despite your opinion, I notice that you don't actually come up with a better Windows-only application that can match Amorak feature-for-feature (for example, Amorak's support of FLAC and Ogg Vorbis audio files, or its support of iPod personal media players, its support for lyrics and album covers and file metadata, all available in the one app).

I don't see why I should. I was just trying to guess on why people voted you down.

After all, it is the Windows fanbois who are trying to claim that there are no good Linux desktop applications. All I have to do is demonstrate some of the desktop app features that equivalent Windows apps can't match, and my point stands. It doesn't depend on your like or dislike of Linux artwork.

Doesn't it? I want a pretty system. For example I am disgusted by iTunes or Safari on Windows, MS Office or Spotify on Linux for exactly that reason. I wouldn't touch it even if it had ten times more features than all other applications in the world combined. But again, that's just my opinion. Judging by most applications on Windows I'd say that most people don't care that their apps looks like shit.

But do you want my opinion on the state of Linux apps? I'd say that it doesn't matter really. I don't think that it's the apps that's holding Linux back (if you are not a video editor or company running highly niched apps).

I installed Ubuntu on my father-in-laws computer and he loved it. I think that there's apps for Gnome, KDE, Windows, Mac, whatever, that do the job and work for the average Joe. So I don't agree with Mr. de Icaza.

Reply Score: 5

RE[6]: He's right
by Savior on Fri 30th Sep 2011 09:34 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He's right"
Savior Member since:
2006-09-02

I notice that you don't actually come up with a better Windows-only application that can match Amorak feature-for-feature (for example, Amorak's support of FLAC and Ogg Vorbis audio files, or its support of iPod personal media players, its support for lyrics and album covers and file metadata, all available in the one app).

Or its lack of support for audio CDs...

The rest of the applications you listed are OK, apart from krita, which suffers from being too complicated while still missing basic features.

Anyway, you listed these programs as an answer to "what applications do not run on Windows"; does that mean the "KDE 4 on Windows" project is dead?

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: He's right
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:27 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: He's right"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"I notice that you don't actually come up with a better Windows-only application that can match Amorak feature-for-feature (for example, Amorak's support of FLAC and Ogg Vorbis audio files, or its support of iPod personal media players, its support for lyrics and album covers and file metadata, all available in the one app).

Or its lack of support for audio CDs...
"

Excuse me?

http://amarok.kde.org/en/features

Audio CDs

Play your Audio CDs in Amarok, and use the Copy to Collection feature to easily rip them to your local collection.


Anyway, you listed these programs as an answer to "what applications do not run on Windows"; does that mean the "KDE 4 on Windows" project is dead?


They might be still trying to achieve this, but for now there is no "KDE 4 on Windows".

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: He's right - krita
by jabbotts on Fri 30th Sep 2011 17:08 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: He's right"
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

Krita, that's the flow chart app isn't it? Yeah, it's not even close to Visio and trust me, I'd really, really, really like to find anything close enough to Visio to be usable.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: He's right
by JAlexoid on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:13 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He's right"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

I'm sorry, but since when are Linux fanboys banned from criticising Linux?
I have a lot of criticism of Linux and I point out features that can be implemented better or in a unique way. Hell I consider Win7 to be the least user friendly OS release ever. After 2 years of forced use by my employer, I still hate it and find it to be unintuitive 99% of the time. Don't get me started with Outlook 2010, I'll take web-based GMail any day of the week...

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: He's right
by oinet on Fri 30th Sep 2011 07:23 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: He's right"
oinet Member since:
2010-03-23

I personally despise anonymous voting/modding.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: He's right - reasons at least
by jabbotts on Fri 30th Sep 2011 17:12 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: He's right"
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

I don't need to know who votted up or down but I'd sure like to find out where I can see the breakdown of chosen reason for votting a comment up or down. I've seen more than a few o few of my own votted down for no reason aperent to rational thinking humans.

In most cases, I don't care that the comment was even voted up or down, just if they down vote was because I was really that far off base or conflicted with someone's chosen world view.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: He's right
by cyrilleberger on Fri 30th Sep 2011 09:21 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: He's right"
cyrilleberger Member since:
2006-02-01

Except that most of them run on windows... There is no exclusively good linux-only applications, because most of them are written with portable toolkits. And if they are good, eventually someone will compile them on windows.

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: He's right
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:05 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: He's right"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Except that most of them run on windows... There is no exclusively good linux-only applications, because most of them are written with portable toolkits. And if they are good, eventually someone will compile them on windows.


Except for the ones I listed, and many others besides, which don't run on Windows.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: He's right
by dnebdal on Fri 30th Sep 2011 18:57 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: He's right"
dnebdal Member since:
2008-08-27


Except for the ones I listed, and many others besides, which don't run on Windows.


I know kate, dolphin and okular do, because I've got them installed in Win7 (and they work fine). Amarok, digikam, krita and Kst also seem to have windows versions, though I haven't tested them recently so I can't say how useful they are.

Edited 2011-09-30 18:57 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: He's right
by jack_perry on Fri 30th Sep 2011 05:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: He's right"
jack_perry Member since:
2005-07-06

SAGE (www.sagemath.org)

Currently runs in Windows only via a virtual machine, or through browser web pages served from a Linux box. :-D

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: He's right
by am577 on Sat 1st Oct 2011 01:32 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: He's right"
am577 Member since:
2011-10-01

SAGE is indeed a good example.

I am not a Linux zealot and use MacOS and Windows every day, but the existence of cygwin is a proof that there is a significant number of people who prefer Linux tools to the analogues in other operating systems. This includes non-command-line applications. For example, I think

http://plasma-gate.weizmann.ac.il/Grace/

is superior to any other plotting tool I tried (and I tried many). I know at least a dozen of people (all in academia) who share this opinion. It's available on Windows as part of cygwin.

Am I wrong that gnuplot was available for Linux first as well?

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: He's right
by am577 on Sat 1st Oct 2011 01:48 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: He's right"
am577 Member since:
2011-10-01

SAGE is indeed a good example.

I am not a Linux zealot and use MacOS and Windows every day, but the existence of Cygwin is a proof that there is a significant number of people who prefer Linux/Unix tools to their analogues in other operating systems. This includes non-command-line applications. For example, I strongly prefer

http://plasma-gate.weizmann.ac.il/Grace/

to any other plotting tool I tried (and I tried many). I know at least a dozen of people (all in academia) who share this opinion. Grace can be used on Windows (via cygwin + X server) and Mac OS X.

On the other hand, many good Linux applications (or applications that started as Linux/Unix-only applications) have a niche user base. An average user is unlikely to be interested in either Sage or Grace.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: He's right
by TemporalBeing on Fri 30th Sep 2011 14:42 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: He's right"
TemporalBeing Member since:
2007-08-22

"As for the '10 good desktop apps thing', can you list 10 really good apps that DON'T run on Windows?


Depends what you mean by "really good apps". I will interpret it as meaning apps that are at least as good, if not far better, as those currently used for the same purposes on Windows. OK, challenge accepted.

Plasma desktop
digikam
krita
k3b
kate
okular
dolphin
Kst
Amarok
qalculate
"

While I agree that those are great apps, most of them do actually run on Windows as one of the stated goals of KDE4 was for more cross-platform capabilities, and to that end windows.kde.org is driving the Windows ports of most all of KDE. This was aided, of course, by TrollTech/Nokia expanding the GPL/LGPL license of Qt to the Windows version, which use to only be for their commercial customers prior to Qt 4.

About the only app that I know of that doesn't run on Windows from KDE is Konsole which is due to the Pty support on Windows (or rather the lack thereof).

I'm not sure of k3b runs on Windows yet or not...it might, but I can't remember.

Oh - and the KDE/Windows folks even provide a nice installer that does a fairly good job of acting as a package manager, albeit only for what they build.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: He's right
by jyper on Mon 3rd Oct 2011 09:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: He's right"
jyper Member since:
2011-10-03

One of the problems is not running on Windows, most kde apps while possibly not well tested on windows will run on windows to some extent. see http://windows.kde.org/.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: He's right
by jokkel on Fri 30th Sep 2011 07:08 UTC in reply to "RE: He's right"
jokkel Member since:
2008-07-07

The greatest non Windows applications can be found on the Mac:
Final Cut, Motion, iMovie, Keynote, Pages, Aperture, iPhoto, GarageBand, OmniGraffle, Bento, Coda, BBEdit

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: He's right
by karunko on Fri 30th Sep 2011 13:28 UTC in reply to "RE: He's right"
karunko Member since:
2008-10-28

Because obviously, having half a dozen desktop environments and 900 distros to choose from really IS a good thing ;)

What's wrong with choices? Do you really want "one OS to rule them all"? That maybe fine for you and/or most people but, surprise, some other people like freedom (of choice) and are prepared to take the time to learn their way around and, sometimes, even put up with a botched upgrade and a reinstall -- as if such things never happen with a mainstream OS! But don't get me wrong: when I talk about choices I'm including Windows and OS X too.

As for the '10 good desktop apps thing', can you list 10 really good apps that DON'T run on Windows?

De Icaza was talking mostly about Windows 8 and Metro applications and didn't say "Linux only applications", so flipping the question on its head makes little sense to me. Unless, that is, you're interested in a pissing contest. ;-)

That said, I think there's plenty of "great" apps in Linux (and *BSD land) and any modern distribution makes for a fairly usable environment -- at least for the most common activities. It could be said that some of them are not as polished or as easy to use but, again, I value freedom most of all and I like the idea of an OS that's not controlled by a single entity. I don't know, maybe I'm a bit of an anarchist.


RT.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: He's right
by WorknMan on Fri 30th Sep 2011 19:59 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: He's right"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

That said, I think there's plenty of "great" apps in Linux (and *BSD land) and any modern distribution makes for a fairly usable environment -- at least for the most common activities. It could be said that some of them are not as polished or as easy to use but, again, I value freedom most of all and I like the idea of an OS that's not controlled by a single entity. I don't know, maybe I'm a bit of an anarchist.


Basically what you're saying is that you're willing to put up with a lot of bullshit in exchange for freedom (or at least your version of it), and that's fine... I can't argue with you there.

But what many of us (both end users and developers) have been saying for years is that desktop Linux is a fragmented mess, and is a big reason why we want nothing to do with it.

Of course, some folks like it that way, and like I said before... that's fine. But in its current state, it's NEVER going to pick up any significant marketshare. So if you want to have stuff splintered in a hundred different directions, you're just going to have to live with the marketshare you have, and no amount of whining about choice and 'Steve Balmer/Jobs is a seal-clubbing bastard' is going to change it.

Reply Score: 3

RE: He's spreading FUD
by kragil on Fri 30th Sep 2011 05:59 UTC in reply to "He's right"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

BS. Miguel is a rabid MS fanboy who thinks OOXML is great.
And just because Linux is lacking in your area of expertise it doesn't mean that there aren't great apps (see my list below)

Edited 2011-09-30 06:00 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: He's spreading FUD
by NuxRo on Fri 30th Sep 2011 06:14 UTC in reply to "RE: He's spreading FUD"
NuxRo Member since:
2010-09-25

BS. Miguel is a rabid MS fanboy who thinks OOXML is great.


+1

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: He's spreading FUD
by lucas_maximus on Fri 30th Sep 2011 09:59 UTC in reply to "RE: He's spreading FUD"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

The guy wrote midnight commander, started gnome and mono and according to this quote

"I am not a Windows user. It’s probably the first time that I would use a Windows machine."


hasn't even thought about using Windows until now ... so how the hell can he be a MS fanboy?

He doesn't use their flagship products.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: He's spreading FUD
by moondevil on Fri 30th Sep 2011 12:35 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: He's spreading FUD"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

...
hasn't even thought about using Windows until now ... so how the hell can he be a MS fanboy?


Because he was rejected to work at Microsoft, before he turned its attention to Linux.

Most of the projects he touched, although good for the Linux world, were clones of Microsoft technology.

Bonobo: COM implemented with CORBA
Evolution: Outlook
Mono: .Net
Moonlight: Silverligt

It is as like he has been trying to compensate for the fact he was not been taken by them.

Reply Score: 10

RE: He's right
by Lennie on Fri 30th Sep 2011 09:26 UTC in reply to "He's right"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

Blender isn't really a Linux app is it ?

Is the GIMP a Linux app ? I guess it is.

But as I asked above. What is a good example of a sucessful Windows application ?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: He's right
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:37 UTC in reply to "RE: He's right"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Blender isn't really a Linux app is it ?


You mean, "Blender isn't really a Windows app, is it?"

http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20080511115151164

Microsoft has just approached the Blender guys, and I would assume have or will approach other FOSS projects since we learn that Microsoft has assigned a guy to work with Open Source projects, with a request for information on how to make Blender run better on Windows. Here's part of what Microsoft emailed to Blender:

With respect to Blender, what can you tell me about your community/user feedback that you have heard regarding file formats? Specifically, Microsoft is slowly shifting toward a more open standards based approach to its file formats. The ISO standard Office Open XML is an example of the direction we are moving towards. A good user experience of Blender on Windows is good for your project/community and good for Microsoft. What we are trying to understand is what file formats, which are not open or not fully open, are impeding the optimal experience with your community.

OOXML is an example of openness? They're kidding, right?


You are right, Blender really isn't a Windows app. Microsoft wished it was.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: He's right
by Lennie on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:40 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: He's right"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

I'm asking, because I'm not a Blender user. I've never ever even seen it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: He's right
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:51 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: He's right"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I'm asking, because I'm not a Blender user. I've never ever even seen it.


Blender is a pretty powerful 3D graphics app.

http://www.blender.org/

"Blender is the free open source 3D content creation suite, available for all major operating systems under the GNU General Public License."

Here are some a relatively recent samples of its output:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRsGyueVLvQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QbzE8jOO7_0&...

Enjoy!

Edited 2011-09-30 10:56 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: He's right
by Lennie on Fri 30th Sep 2011 11:17 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: He's right"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

I know what it is, I just have never installed and used it because I don't have a use for it.

If I haven't used it for something, I wouldn't be able to judge if it is a Linux- or Windows-application or otherwise.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: He's right
by Soulbender on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:54 UTC in reply to "RE: He's right"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Since apps that runs on many platforms does not count we must exclude all Windows apps that runs in Wine/Cedega/Crossover from any comparisons.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: He's right
by manjabes on Fri 30th Sep 2011 17:37 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: He's right"
manjabes Member since:
2005-08-27

Since apps that runs on many platforms does not count we must exclude all Windows apps that runs in Wine/Cedega/Crossover from any comparisons.


But then, your list of great linux apps from earlier:

I dunno, was pretty easy for me.

wireshark
k3b
firefox
chrome/chromium

dolphin
kate
kopete
psi
kmail
ktorrent

...continuing...
konsole
bangarang
vlc
smplayer
amarok
clementine
thunderbird
etc etc

and thats just at the top of my head.


So, cross-platform applications are included when counting Linux applications and excluded when counting Windows applications?

Edited 2011-09-30 17:38 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: He's right
by Soulbender on Fri 30th Sep 2011 17:47 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: He's right"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

You failed to detect the sarcasm.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: He's right
by manjabes on Fri 30th Sep 2011 18:01 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: He's right"
manjabes Member since:
2005-08-27

Sorry about that, it's been a long day...

Reply Score: 1

RE: He's right
by JAlexoid on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:05 UTC in reply to "He's right"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

I hope NovaCut can fix the issue of not having a good and simple video editing tool.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by stabbyjones
by stabbyjones on Fri 30th Sep 2011 01:22 UTC
stabbyjones
Member since:
2008-04-15

I only use Linux and I struggle to hit even 10.
http://zim-wiki.org/
http://projects.gnome.org/rhythmbox/
http://projects.gnome.org/gedit/
http://www.gimp.org/
http://www.infinicode.org/code/pyrenamer/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/tagtool/

This one isn't even an 'app' but it's perfect.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/minidlna/

I think what happens is that you fall into the trap of writing little scripts and use command-line programs to fill your own gaps.

Then again, I haven't felt like anything important is missing either. Linux fills the gaps but it doesn't make them known very easily for most people.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by stabbyjones
by Soulbender on Fri 30th Sep 2011 03:44 UTC in reply to "Comment by stabbyjones"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

I dunno, was pretty easy for me.

wireshark
k3b
firefox
chrome/chromium
dolphin
kate
kopete
psi
kmail
ktorrent

...continuing...
konsole
bangarang
vlc
smplayer
amarok
clementine
thunderbird
etc etc

and thats just at the top of my head.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Comment by stabbyjones
by clasqm on Fri 30th Sep 2011 07:48 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by stabbyjones"
clasqm Member since:
2010-09-23

Now take out all the ones that are available on windows and/or Mac. That's what this is about. Are there any apps out there that are so utterly awesome that anybody would want to switch to Linux?

Oh, I'm not a windows fanboy BTW. I'm a Mac fanboy. I do a lot of writing and Apple's Pages is the most incredible word processor ever made. The first wp I've seen on which styles actually make sense. I run a Mac because Pages is available on it.

Your turn. What Linux app gives such an incredible user experience that I should give up the Mac and run a Linux box instead? And keep in mind that anything that runs via a native port (eg Firefox), or as an X port (scribus) or via Darwinports or Fink does not qualify. I can run those already.

Hey, I like the Linux politics. But it's not enough, I need great software that I cannot get anywhere else. Give me a reason to switch!

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by stabbyjones
by No it isnt on Fri 30th Sep 2011 09:12 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by stabbyjones"
No it isnt Member since:
2005-11-14

Mac OS X lacks a good file manager and window manager, so I'd say kwin and Dolphin or one of the many alternatives. BTW, pretending that Fink and X11 somehow makes the experience the same under OS X just isn't credible, as the user experience generally sucks.

Hell, OS X isn't even integrated with itself when you look at it from the POV of the command line.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Comment by stabbyjones
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:20 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by stabbyjones"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Now take out all the ones that are available on windows and/or Mac. That's what this is about. Are there any apps out there that are so utterly awesome that anybody would want to switch to Linux?

Oh, I'm not a windows fanboy BTW. I'm a Mac fanboy. I do a lot of writing and Apple's Pages is the most incredible word processor ever made. The first wp I've seen on which styles actually make sense. I run a Mac because Pages is available on it.

Your turn. What Linux app gives such an incredible user experience that I should give up the Mac and run a Linux box instead? And keep in mind that anything that runs via a native port (eg Firefox), or as an X port (scribus) or via Darwinports or Fink does not qualify. I can run those already.

Hey, I like the Linux politics. But it's not enough, I need great software that I cannot get anywhere else. Give me a reason to switch!


You have a point here. For the most part, one can achieve whatever one wants to achieve on any well-supported platform, be it Linux, Mac or Windows.

The killer feature of Linux is value-for-money. One can achieve vastly more capability per dollar spent on a Linux machine.

That feature may not be very attractive however to someone who has already blown their money on an expensive Mac or Windows system.

In fact, such people might even come on Internet forums and try to justify their expensive choice, perhaps to make them feel better. They might even go so far as to try to insist that a far better value-for-money alternative doesn't exist, when clearly, it does. They might even down-vote others in a kind of semi-irrational state of denial.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Comment by stabbyjones
by Midnight on Sun 2nd Oct 2011 06:38 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by stabbyjones"
Midnight Member since:
2011-10-02

The killer feature of Linux is value-for-money. One can achieve vastly more capability per dollar spent on a Linux machine.


Except that the majority of people don't care about this. I've worked both in a small local computer shop servicing home users and for a consultant business servicing business IT for networks up to 200 people. One of the commonalities of both of those markets is that they want something to "just work".

Home users don't care about the "choice" or added capabilities that Linux offers. They want to turn the computer on, log into their email, do their banking, etc. and turn it off. If you were to tell them about "choice" or "computer freedom" or "more capability per dollar", they'd look at you like you were insane. They don't care. These people buy a new OS when they replace their computer. That only happens when the old one dies. Saying "But you have more capability!" means nothing to them.

Business' clients want a system that just works with what they already have. They don't want to pay their IT staff to figure out how to coax Postfix & Dovecot to mimic what their old Exchange server could do. They don't want to have to sort out Samba when a Windows server will share files with five or so mouse clicks. They don't want to pay to have their old applications rewritten to use Linux technologies. They don't want to figure out why a mail merge that worked with Word and Excel suddenly doesn't work with Writer and Calc. This will cost them money and provide almost nothing in return.

If you want either of those two groups to take Linux seriously as an alternative to Windows or Mac, there HAS to be a compelling reason why. That has to be a "Killer App". Windows has a huge number of legacy applications, lots of triple-A video games and Office, not to mention Active Directory. Mac has Pages, Keynote, Final Cut, Aqua all with a "cool" factor. Linux has ... Amarok? Kate? That's not enough.

"Capability per dollar" means nothing if the people you're trying to convince to switch have no use for the added capabilities.

This is coming from somebody who runs a personal FreeBSD server, has done SysAdmin on NetBSD and Linux for an ISP, has been using Linux on the desktop off and on since 2000 and has worked in IT for over ten years.

In fact, such people might even come on Internet forums and try to justify their expensive choice, perhaps to make them feel better. They might even go so far as to try to insist that a far better value-for-money alternative doesn't exist, when clearly, it does. They might even down-vote others in a kind of semi-irrational state of denial.


You are extremely abrasive. This paragraph is so full of passive-aggressive posturing that I'd swear it was written by a twelve year old. My guess is that the attitude you're displaying here is enough to get people to down vote you just for spite.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by stabbyjones
by lemur2 on Mon 3rd Oct 2011 00:28 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by stabbyjones"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"The killer feature of Linux is value-for-money. One can achieve vastly more capability per dollar spent on a Linux machine.


Except that the majority of people don't care about this. I've worked both in a small local computer shop servicing home users and for a consultant business servicing business IT for networks up to 200 people. One of the commonalities of both of those markets is that they want something to "just work".

Home users don't care about the "choice" or added capabilities that Linux offers. They want to turn the computer on, log into their email, do their banking, etc. and turn it off. If you were to tell them about "choice" or "computer freedom" or "more capability per dollar", they'd look at you like you were insane. They don't care. These people buy a new OS when they replace their computer. That only happens when the old one dies. Saying "But you have more capability!" means nothing to them.

Business' clients want a system that just works with what they already have. They don't want to pay their IT staff to figure out how to coax Postfix & Dovecot to mimic what their old Exchange server could do. They don't want to have to sort out Samba when a Windows server will share files with five or so mouse clicks. They don't want to pay to have their old applications rewritten to use Linux technologies. They don't want to figure out why a mail merge that worked with Word and Excel suddenly doesn't work with Writer and Calc. This will cost them money and provide almost nothing in return.

"Capability per dollar" means nothing if the people you're trying to convince to switch have no use for the added capabilities.

This is coming from somebody who runs a personal FreeBSD server, has done SysAdmin on NetBSD and Linux for an ISP, has been using Linux on the desktop off and on since 2000 and has worked in IT for over ten years.

In fact, such people might even come on Internet forums and try to justify their expensive choice, perhaps to make them feel better. They might even go so far as to try to insist that a far better value-for-money alternative doesn't exist, when clearly, it does. They might even down-vote others in a kind of semi-irrational state of denial.


You are extremely abrasive. This paragraph is so full of passive-aggressive posturing that I'd swear it was written by a twelve year old. My guess is that the attitude you're displaying here is enough to get people to down vote you just for spite.
"

Every single one of your points is "classical FUD" against Linux.

If one gets a desktop Linux LiveCD today, and installs it on a bare machine, it will work instantly out of the box.

Yes, I repeat, it will "just work".

Ordinary people will absolutely be able to: "turn the computer on, log into their email, do their banking, etc. and turn it off".

Why on earth would you imagine that they wouldn't be able to?

Why would you imagine people would struggle setting up Postfix & Dovecot if it didn't meet their needs (it isn't a replacement for Exchange). Why wouldn't they simply go for Openchange/SoGo or Zarafa (which are a replacements for Exchange)?

http://www.openchange.org/

http://www.zarafa.com/

What the hell are you on about, anyway? Why do you feel the need to try to spread disinformation like you did?

How come alleged "cool factor" is important anyway if people allegedly want things to work "out of the box"? I will simply point out that what you list as cool for OSX and Windows doesn't work out of the box. Out of the box it is nowhere to be seen. I will further point out that there is nothing in your "cool" list that the equivalent cannot be had for desktop Linux. Except that for Linux, one can easily install for free using a few click in the GUI package manager.

Indeed "Capability per dollar" means nothing if the people you're trying to convince to switch have already spent their dollars on something else far more expensive. Like you they are more likely to try to justify their previous outlay. OTOH, "capability per dollar" means everything to people who are looking at a new system (or their first system) and who don't have an excess of unused dollars just lying around idle.

With your faux criticism of desktop Linux, you too are extremely abrasive.

You sound like you are crying in your beer over all that money you needlessly spent.

Edited 2011-10-03 00:36 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by stabbyjones
by zlynx on Mon 3rd Oct 2011 17:10 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by stabbyjones"
zlynx Member since:
2005-07-20

If one gets a desktop Linux LiveCD today, and installs it on a bare machine, it will work instantly out of the box.

Yes, I repeat, it will "just work".

Not in my experience. Any hardware that is the slightest bit new, and Linux is likely to fail in "interesting" ways.

For example, in 2009 I built a new desktop system using a Gigabyte X58 motherboard, Core i7 920 and a pair of SATA Velociraptor drives.

None of the Linux distributions could run it. I had to custom-compile the latest Linux -rc versions just to get the SATA drivers. Then I needed binary ATI video drivers because the open source drivers couldn't handle the card.

This year I got a Samsung Series 9 laptop. Very nice, but no optical drive. So, off I went to boot a Fedora Live CD from a USB stick. Should be easy right? There's even a tool for it.

Heck no. The Live CD assumes that the media (the USB key in this case) will have the same volume name that the CD was burned with. Took me a couple of hours to figure that one out!

Then there were all the problems, like reboot crashing the machine (had to add reboot=k), and the LED flashing after a crash preventing the power-off key from working (had to add another kernel option to fix that) and EXT4 defaulting to not using TRIM on the SSD.

So, to repeat: In my personal experience with Linux, which I like a lot, it takes a software engineer and sysadmin to make Linux "just work."

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by stabbyjones
by lemur2 on Mon 3rd Oct 2011 21:59 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by stabbyjones"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"If one gets a desktop Linux LiveCD today, and installs it on a bare machine, it will work instantly out of the box. Yes, I repeat, it will "just work".
Not in my experience. Any hardware that is the slightest bit new, and Linux is likely to fail in "interesting" ways. For example, in 2009 I built a new desktop system using a Gigabyte X58 motherboard, Core i7 920 and a pair of SATA Velociraptor drives. None of the Linux distributions could run it. I had to custom-compile the latest Linux -rc versions just to get the SATA drivers. Then I needed binary ATI video drivers because the open source drivers couldn't handle the card. This year I got a Samsung Series 9 laptop. Very nice, but no optical drive. So, off I went to boot a Fedora Live CD from a USB stick. Should be easy right? There's even a tool for it. Heck no. The Live CD assumes that the media (the USB key in this case) will have the same volume name that the CD was burned with. Took me a couple of hours to figure that one out! Then there were all the problems, like reboot crashing the machine (had to add reboot=k), and the LED flashing after a crash preventing the power-off key from working (had to add another kernel option to fix that) and EXT4 defaulting to not using TRIM on the SSD. So, to repeat: In my personal experience with Linux, which I like a lot, it takes a software engineer and sysadmin to make Linux "just work." "

Get real. Who exactly are you trying to kid?

Firstly, if one were to do for Linux the same as one did for Windows, and buy it pre-installed on a machine designed to run it, then Linux too would "just work". It would "just work" very well indeed, and unlike Windows it would continue to work very well. It would not get slower with time, and it would be quite unlikely to ever get compromised by malware.

For self-installed Linux, one puts in a LiveCD, and on 95% of machines it will indeed "just work". Of the existing machines out there today, a current desktop Linux distribution tailored for that class of machine will "just work" far more often than any current version of Windows. These are machines designed for Windows, mind you. Linux is far, far easier to self-install and get to a satisfactory working state than Windows is.

Linux has more working drivers for more hardware than any other OS on the planet, by quite a long way. Linux runs on more hardware than any other OS.

The ball is back in your court.

Edited 2011-10-03 22:18 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by stabbyjones
by lucas_maximus on Mon 3rd Oct 2011 00:24 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by stabbyjones"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

In fact, such people might even come on Internet forums and try to justify their expensive choice, perhaps to make them feel better. They might even go so far as to try to insist that a far better value-for-money alternative doesn't exist, when clearly, it does. They might even down-vote others in a kind of semi-irrational state of denial.


Stop acting butthurt.

Windows unlike Linux is an full Operating system. That is what you pay for. You pay for all the work and testing that has gone in to make the whole system reliable (And Windows has been pretty reliable on the desktop since NT 4.0).

If your only argument is that Linux is a zero cost Windows clone with a few extra free features, and people are still choosing To Pay for it (even if you take Windows out of the equation, people are ready to pay for Macs which are far more expensive and have a similar application set to that of Windows out of the box).

Then tbh I earn good money, I might as well pay for Windows and I can use most of the GNU alternatives on a Windows system and I can use all the paid for stuff as well.

Edited 2011-10-03 00:25 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by stabbyjones
by lemur2 on Mon 3rd Oct 2011 00:44 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by stabbyjones"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"In fact, such people might even come on Internet forums and try to justify their expensive choice, perhaps to make them feel better. They might even go so far as to try to insist that a far better value-for-money alternative doesn't exist, when clearly, it does. They might even down-vote others in a kind of semi-irrational state of denial.


Stop acting butthurt.

Windows unlike Linux is an full Operating system. That is what you pay for. You pay for all the work and testing that has gone in to make the whole system reliable (And Windows has been pretty reliable on the desktop since NT 4.0).
"

Say what? On what planet?

Windows is notoriously slow & unreliable. There are literally hundreds of millions of broken and/or compromised machines out there. There is an entire industry built on trying to keep the machines running and free of compromise. Even though all that effort and extra expense through that industry clearly doesn't work, ordinary people are still expected to pay for it all.

If your only argument is that Linux is a zero cost Windows clone with a few extra free features,


God no. Linux is nothing like a clone of Windows. Linux is a re-written-from-scratch Unix work-alike. If anything it is closer to OSX, which in turn is derived from BSD.

and people are still choosing To Pay for it (even if you take Windows out of the equation, people are ready to pay for Macs which are far more expensive and have a similar application set to that of Windows out of the box).


Because they are offered nothing else in commercial retail stores.

Then tbh I earn good money, I might as well pay for Windows and I can use most of the GNU alternatives on a Windows system and I can use all the paid for stuff as well.


I am reminded of old wisdom here, encapsulated in the saying: "A fool and his money are soon parted".

Edited 2011-10-03 00:46 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by stabbyjones
by lucas_maximus on Mon 3rd Oct 2011 01:12 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by stabbyjones"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Windows is notoriously slow & unreliable. There are literally hundreds of millions of broken and/or compromised machines out there. There is an entire industry built on trying to keep the machines running and free of compromise. Even though all that effort and extra expense through that industry clearly doesn't work, ordinary people are still expected to pay for it all.


The last time you claimed this ... You actually posted evidence that said that Windows 7 was actually faster than Ubuntu at quite a few find (involving I/O) ... after I point out your error you didn't post after that ... much like you normally do ... you can't admit you are ever wrong ... pretty sad IMO.


Somebody being stupid and installing crap on their pc and not using a Firewall ... is not anything to do with how reliable the OS is ... the weakest link in the chain is the people using it. Which is the exact same argument that people are making when Kernel.org got hacked ...

God no. Linux is nothing like a clone of Windows. Linux is a re-written-from-scratch Unix work-alike. If anything it is closer to OSX, which in turn is derived from BSD.


Why does KDE 3 series default configuration look like Windows XP? and Why does KDE 4 series look like Win Vista/7 and why does Open Office look like Office 2003, Why does all your software look and work like Software for Windows if you hate it soo damn much?

"imitation is the most sincerest form of flattery" ;-)

Because they are offered nothing else in commercial retail stores.


Maybe you know if it was like a "product" rather than a "idea" ... OEMS might consider it.

I am reminded of old wisdom here, encapsulated in the saying: "A fool and his money are soon parted".


You probably don't even donate for something that you rigorously defend.

I am not the fool that was acting butt hurt after he got modded down.

God you bite so easily ... I didn't expect a reply until tomorrow. You know 90% of the time I am trolling the fuck out of you don't you? God I just trolled the whole of OSNEWS (nearly 300 comments now).

I hope David Adams appreciates the extra page views.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by stabbyjones
by lemur2 on Mon 3rd Oct 2011 22:16 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by stabbyjones"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

The last time you claimed this ... You actually posted evidence that said that Windows 7 was actually faster than Ubuntu at quite a few find (involving I/O)


Excuse me?

I know that for the current versions of Windows 7 and Kubuntu, Kubuntu is quite a bit faster than Windows 7, because I run the both on the same machine for one of my machines.

Laughably, on one occasion Windows 7 took over an hour to boot to a usable desktop. The default browser, IE9, is the next-to-slowest of the pack (I have replaced it with Firefox 7 insofar as it can be removed).

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/firefox-7-web-browser,3037-17.h...

Windows 7 came with a pathetic default text editor, and an horrendously slow Office Suite that turned out to be adware. Before I could use it comfortably and safely, I had to spend many hours setting up extra security software, removing the lamentable default Office suite offering, and installing Firefox 7, Thunderbird and LibreOffice.

As a user experience of desktop software, Kubuntu 11.04 won hands-down no contest in every comparison.

Edited 2011-10-03 22:22 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by stabbyjones
by r_a_trip on Fri 30th Sep 2011 11:33 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by stabbyjones"
r_a_trip Member since:
2005-07-06

Are there any apps out there that are so utterly awesome that anybody would want to switch to Linux?

I'd say the GNU/Linux operating system itself. It is rock solid (if you install it on appropriate hardware), it is near gratis, it has a large range of applications available and just a few clicks away and it is pretty resilient to malware (at least Linux lets you know something wants your admin password), plus it is highly adaptable and a modern Linux distro installs a complete system in less than 40 minutes.

What Linux app gives such an incredible user experience that I should give up the Mac and run a Linux box instead?

None. If you need external convincing that Linux is best for you, than Linux isn't best for you. Besides, reading between the lines, your gold standard is the OS X environment. Linux will fail this standard every time, because Linux simply isn't OS X.

Give me a reason to switch!

If you can't give yourself a reason to switch, what makes you think somebody else can? It is your computer. You should run the OS on it that makes you happy. My Linux computing experience doesn't diminish when you happily run OS X. My guess is that you aren't any unhappier about your Mac, knowing that I run Linux...

Reply Score: 8

RE[3]: Comment by stabbyjones
by RawMustard on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:11 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by stabbyjones"
RawMustard Member since:
2005-10-10

What Linux app gives such an incredible user experience that I should give up the Mac and run a Linux box instead?


That's easy. Linux itself!

The others aren't even in the race when it comes to flexibility and freedom. To be able to just apt-get new app when I need a tool to do a job without having to agree to sacrifice my first born is a no brainer to me.

For me linux isn't just about the Windows[tm] killer apps. linux is a choice between flexibility, freedom and convenience. de Icaza misses the whole point about Linux with this opinion piece if you ask me.

People who choose Linux do so because they need a dependable OS with no restrictions to get something done. They don't care if it doesn't have Windows[tm] killer apps, the other benefits far out way this BS!

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Comment by stabbyjones
by Soulbender on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:22 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by stabbyjones"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Now take out all the ones that are available on windows and/or Mac.


Right, so we should take out cross-platform apps when talking about Windows and Mac too then.

That's what this is about.


No, it's about great Linux desktop apps. If they exist on multiple platforms are irrelevant.

What Linux app gives such an incredible user experience that I should give up the Mac and run a Linux box instead?


How would I know? I don't know what your needs and wants are. I also don't care if you use Linux, Mac or Windows. Use what works best for you.

And keep in mind that anything that runs via a native port (eg Firefox), or as an X port (scribus) or via Darwinports or Fink does not qualify.


This is a dumb criteria for "a great app". Either the app is great or not.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Comment by stabbyjones
by DMon on Fri 30th Sep 2011 20:36 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by stabbyjones"
DMon Member since:
2011-09-30

Clusterssh but that is kind of an admin app so I can see how it would be missed.

That all said their isn't that many truly killer apps on windows either. Yes there are some niche apps (Maya, 3DMax, Photoshop, Dreamweaver, etc) but they are really not used by the vast majority of users. In fact most apps that fit 90% of the users would work for them on the Linux space. Problem is you have to look at the impact of the market. The vast majority of users use productivity apps like Office or a web browser and that space is starting to be eat'n by the tablets and smartphones. Even windows will be hit by this change.

Thus we will come back to the niche markets which will then depend on where those places one to be. Adobe will still sale Photoshop for Mac and Windows and as long as some crazy Linux guy can use Wine to get it running on Linux Adobe doesn't care. And frankly most of the niche apps cost so much that most people who use them can afford to have systems specific for their purpose.

The tablet is poised to take over the productivity and consumption apps. It will soon be that all you need is a tablet and usb/bluetooth keyboard and you can say bye bye to you desktop of your.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by stabbyjones - ZIM
by jabbotts on Fri 30th Sep 2011 17:27 UTC in reply to "Comment by stabbyjones"
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

The "only on Linux based distributions" is the real problem.

Zim.. love it to death but v0.53 just came out and has a Windows build just like v0.50'ish and previous did. Both full install and portable versions. It's not as clean is it is on a native *nix system but it's darn close.

- My favorite feature is the standard folder/file tree it uses; nice and easy to rsync between all my OS including Windows.

- My wishlist; consolidated tree output to other file formats (only does output by indavidual page when last I checked but the developer may have added it since), embedded Vim or "open in external editor" as I keep looking up to see "jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj" instead of my cursor down several rows and the lack of "dd/p" to reorganize rows remains very noticable to me.

http://www.glump.net/software/zim

GIMP fails the "strictly Linux distro run" also.
http://portableapps.com/apps/graphics_pictures/gimp_portable

Along with also having a Windows full install version. Works very nicely too given my need for an image editor and lack of budget for Photoshop volume licensing.

The issue is not that these are great programs though; simply that they fail the "only runs on Linux" rule imposed to make the discussion a zero-sum game.

Reply Score: 2

2012
by twitterfire on Fri 30th Sep 2011 01:46 UTC
twitterfire
Member since:
2008-09-11

Well, I'm sure 2012 will be the year of the linux desktop.

Reply Score: 4

RE: 2012
by r_a_trip on Fri 30th Sep 2011 11:37 UTC in reply to "2012"
r_a_trip Member since:
2005-07-06

It better be! Come December 2012, it's all over :-)

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: 2012
by KLU9 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:24 UTC in reply to "RE: 2012"
KLU9 Member since:
2006-12-06

2013: The Year of Linux on the Asteroid Field where Earth Used to Be!

Reply Score: 1

RE: 2012
by Soulbender on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:25 UTC in reply to "2012"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Still more likely than 2012 being the year of Windows in the datacenter.

Reply Score: 4

Yes and no ...
by MacTO on Fri 30th Sep 2011 01:49 UTC
MacTO
Member since:
2006-09-21

The thing is, I'd have a hard time naming 10 great Windows desktop applications and I've been using Windows for about 3 years now.

The problem is that we automatically cross a lot of applications off the list because we have a narrow definition of a desktop application. Things like Word and Writer will count, but KidPix and Tux Paint would be ignored. The exclusion is ironic since the Photoshop and GIMP would count, but software for children just doesn't seem worthy.

If you want to make an honest list of the great desktop applications for Linux, go into the package manager and remind yourself about all of the great programs that are out there. And try to avoid mentally crossing things off because it's 'for a child', 'only for developers', 'geared towards science geeks', or whatever.

Reply Score: 6

RE: Yes and no ...
by demetrioussharpe on Fri 30th Sep 2011 14:54 UTC in reply to "Yes and no ..."
demetrioussharpe Member since:
2009-01-09

The thing is, I'd have a hard time naming 10 great Windows desktop applications and I've been using Windows for about 3 years now.

The problem is that we automatically cross a lot of applications off the list because we have a narrow definition of a desktop application. Things like Word and Writer will count, but KidPix and Tux Paint would be ignored. The exclusion is ironic since the Photoshop and GIMP would count, but software for children just doesn't seem worthy.

If you want to make an honest list of the great desktop applications for Linux, go into the package manager and remind yourself about all of the great programs that are out there. And try to avoid mentally crossing things off because it's 'for a child', 'only for developers', 'geared towards science geeks', or whatever.


I think I'll follow the KISS principle here. If Lots of people are using it & an overwhelming majority of them speak very highly of it, then it's great. You should keep in mind that 'great' is highly relative & subjective, so the only way to truly quantify it is by volume of usage coupled with positive critique. It doesn't matter how good a children's app is if most children aren't using it, because that means that most parents aren't installing it.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Yes and no ... - GIMP
by jabbotts on Fri 30th Sep 2011 17:47 UTC in reply to "Yes and no ..."
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

My little one is using GIMP. "Can I use your computer to colour?" and all I had was GIMP installed at the time so "this program might be a little complicated" but she wanted to try so up it loaded. By the second time, she was already using it better than I can. I resize and crop images; she's changing backgrounds, mucking with layers, figuring out all the colour pickers..

Given that it's GIMP, I'm more than a little stunned that the first try didn't end five minutes later with her going back to the colouring book and box of pencils.

(I should give tuxpaint a go though)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Yes and no ...
by twitterfire on Sat 1st Oct 2011 00:44 UTC in reply to "Yes and no ..."
twitterfire Member since:
2008-09-11

The thing is, I'd have a hard time naming 10 great Windows desktop applications and I've been using Windows for about 3 years now.


That's easy. I can probably mention at least 1000 but I will mention only ~70.

Microsoft Office, Microsoft Visual Studio, Adobe Photoshop, 3DS Max, Sony Vegas, Adobe Premiere, uTorrent, KMPlayer, Adobe Dreamweaver, Cyberlink PowerDVD,ACDSee, Adobe Acrobat, Adobe Illustrator, Adobe Audition, Everest, DVDShrink, Partition Magic, Winamp, Finale, Notepad, Google Earth, Traktor DJ, Soundforge, Nero, Picasa, Guitar Rig, Amplitube, Acronis True Image, Adobe After Effects, Autocad, CCleaner, Mathematica, Quicken, Steinberg Cubase, Visicalc, Trillian, World of Warcraft, Half Life, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Rift, Guild Wars, Grand Theft Auto, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Halo, TES Oblivion, KOTOR, Civilization, Heroes of Might and Magic, Need for Speed, Fear, Syberia, Mafia, Deus Ex, Gods of War, Rift, LOTRO, Warhammer, Planesacape Torment, Ultima Online, Unreal Tournament, Fallout, Starcraft, Diablo, The Witcher, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Knights.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Yes and no ...
by filosofem on Sat 1st Oct 2011 10:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Yes and no ..."
filosofem Member since:
2010-05-05

Funny that halfway you started to inflate the list with games. Hey, it's apps we're talking about here. The number of apps sitting on my Docky easily exceed 20 and they are all good if not great, with the sole exception of Skype -- proprietary crap that fails on me all the bloody time and can't be fixed no matter what because the source is not open.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Yes and no ...
by zlynx on Mon 3rd Oct 2011 17:16 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Yes and no ..."
zlynx Member since:
2005-07-20

What's wrong with listing games as applications?

Their purpose is to amuse the user, cause relaxation and fun.

Really, that's just as important as producing office documents, isn't it?

I don't think you can consider great 3D design applications like Maya without considering the game applications that use those 3D models.

Or, if VLC can be a great application to watch movies then game engines are equally great applications for interactive entertainment.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Yes and no ...
by JAlexoid on Tue 4th Oct 2011 09:43 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Yes and no ..."
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Problem is that games are rarely - Great Windows Applications. They are mostly Great DX3D applications. In addition, a lot of the games he listed aren't even Windows exclusive....

Reply Score: 2

fast_rizwaan
Member since:
2010-09-01

Freedom to create, modify and share. Apple and MS is for profit, GNU/Linux is for people. Simple!

Comparing 'paid apps' with 'voluntarily created apps' is injustice. How many 'free' high quality apps exists in Windows or Mac which were created by voluntary efforts of the developers? I'm not talking about 'adware' or 'shareware'; real free and real great, including source! 1-2-3 maybe?

And what about sharing? can you share any great windows or mac software with your family and friends? NO! you are just a licensee. And licensee can't share anything, they are renting software. And it's funny to see people boasting on rented software.

Linux can run all those 'great commercial apps' like photoshop, finereader, ms office, blah blah... using 'wine' already.

Wine just needs more love; integrating wine with native linux toolkits like gtk would be real cool.

Wine can make 'the software installation' seamless, but it is not given enough attention by any of the desktop environments and distros.

Wine developers are just amazing, I reported missing hindi support, and in a few days, they implemented Hindi laguage support. Now I can use MS office in Linux with Hindi. Great guys!

The problem is most users simply are not aware that they can communicate their issues with developers.

So, guys don't forget to use, test, report issues to the concerned project, developers. They are friends, not landlords.

MS will die, Apple will die, free software will remain. It is the spirit of being free to care and share and not just being a tenant of rented products.

Edited 2011-09-30 02:07 UTC

Reply Score: 10

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18
demetrioussharpe Member since:
2009-01-09

Freedom to create, modify and share. Apple and MS is for profit, GNU/Linux is for people. Simple!

Comparing 'paid apps' with 'voluntarily created apps' is injustice. How many 'free' high quality apps exists in Windows or Mac which were created by voluntary efforts of the developers? I'm not talking about 'adware' or 'shareware'; real free and real great, including source! 1-2-3 maybe?


No, it's not an injustice. It's as far as it gets. As a developer of both commercial & open source projects, I think you're sidestepping the real issue. Just because a piece of software is open source, doesn't mean that you should give the developer special treatment & call it good when it's crappy. Developing code in your spare time isn't a free pass to be sloppy or half-assed. To be honest, you're probably hurting things by calling it chicken salad if it's really chicken sh*t. Sure, there're great OSS apps out there, but not as many as people are pretending there are.

if(pcFreeApp == pcCrapApp) {
RestartDeveloper();
}

Reply Score: 2

pretty biased
by TechGeek on Fri 30th Sep 2011 02:11 UTC
TechGeek
Member since:
2006-01-14

I have to say that this is a pretty biased view of Linux. There are plenty of good apps that are on Linux. Sure, Linux is a fast moving platform. That means that its a lot of work to keep apps up to date. But guess what? At least on Linux you have the source code to fix it. How many people are running xp legacy mode on Windows 7 or some VM just to host some legacy app that doesnt work anymore? Especially in business. deIcaza is a putz. His answer to everything was Mono Mono Mono. Look where that got him. His opinion isn't worth that much.

Reply Score: 3

RE: pretty biased
by fast_rizwaan on Fri 30th Sep 2011 02:27 UTC in reply to "pretty biased"
fast_rizwaan Member since:
2010-09-01

Sabotage is a deliberate action aimed at weakening another entity through subversion, obstruction, disruption, or destruction.

MSFT, has been sabotaging Linux by bribing developers, companies, like coral, nokia.

remember XPDE?

KDE is sabotaged, clearly. hint: nokia and microsoft deal.

mono is such sabotaging tactic for gnome.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: pretty biased
by Slambert666 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 03:04 UTC in reply to "RE: pretty biased"
Slambert666 Member since:
2008-10-30

mono is such sabotaging tactic for gnome.


Yet the mono apps were some of the few that actually worked as advertised.

So sabotaging by providing working apps....

I see what you did there.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: pretty biased
by fast_rizwaan on Fri 30th Sep 2011 04:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: pretty biased"
fast_rizwaan Member since:
2010-09-01

Due to patents held by Microsoft on its .NET technology, the availability of two .NET implementations (Mono and DotGNU) under free software licenses doesn't mean that free software developers should, according to RMS, write code for the platform. His call on the free software community: "You shouldn't write software to use .NET. No exceptions." RMS says that Microsoft could one day use patents against free .NET implementations.

http://www.fsf.org/news/2009-07-mscp-mono

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: pretty biased
by Einlander on Fri 30th Sep 2011 06:04 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: pretty biased"
Einlander Member since:
2009-07-08

So the Microsoft Community Promise dosent exist?
http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/programs/communit...


C# Language Specification - Ecma-334, 4th Edition and ISO/IEC 23270:2006



Common Language Infrastructure (CLI) - Ecma-335, 4th Edition and ISO/IEC 23271:2006

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: pretty biased
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 06:10 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: pretty biased"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

So the Microsoft Community Promise dosent exist? http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/programs/communit... C# Language Specification - Ecma-334, 4th Edition and ISO/IEC 23270:2006 Common Language Infrastructure (CLI) - Ecma-335, 4th Edition and ISO/IEC 23271:2006


http://www.gnu.org/s/dotgnu/

DotGNU Portable.NET, an implementation of the Common Language Infrastructure (CLI), more commonly known as ".NET", includes everything that you need to compile and run C# and C applications that use the base class libraries, XML, and Systems.Windows.Forms.


The Microsoft Community Promise certainly doesn't exist for Systems.Windows.Forms. I beleive also that it doesn't exist for .NET XML.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: pretty biased
by ephracis on Fri 30th Sep 2011 07:00 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: pretty biased"
ephracis Member since:
2007-09-23

Do don't use WinForms when you write Mono apps then.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: pretty biased
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 07:21 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: pretty biased"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Do don't use WinForms when you write Mono apps then.


Easier and far better solution ... don't write Mono apps then.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: pretty biased
by Slambert666 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 14:52 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: pretty biased"
Slambert666 Member since:
2008-10-30

The Microsoft Community Promise certainly doesn't exist for Systems.Windows.Forms. I beleive also that it doesn't exist for .NET XML.


It definitely does not exist for neither GTK nor QT so you better not write any apps using these libs either.

Also no "promise" for linux itself, so you better stop using that as well (or Microsoft will get its Microsoft tax)

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: pretty biased
by moondevil on Fri 30th Sep 2011 12:42 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: pretty biased"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

So the Microsoft Community Promise dosent exist?
http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/programs/communit...


C# Language Specification - Ecma-334, 4th Edition and ISO/IEC 23270:2006



Common Language Infrastructure (CLI) - Ecma-335, 4th Edition and ISO/IEC 23271:2006


The problem is that those specifications only cover up to C# version 2.0 and CLI v 2.0. You are out of luck if you search for a language standard for newer C# versions or CLI.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: pretty biased
by Soulbender on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:37 UTC in reply to "RE: pretty biased"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Dude, I think your tinfoil hat is on too tight.

Reply Score: 2

just to make a point
by TechGeek on Fri 30th Sep 2011 02:26 UTC
TechGeek
Member since:
2006-01-14

Firefox, Thunderbird, transmission, k3b, Libre Office, vlc, virtualbox, gedit, gimp, blender, wine, chrome, picasa, eclipse, .... do I really need to keep going?

Why don't we talk about the things that Linux has on the desktop that Windows doesn't?

One service to update most if not all software on the system, seamlessly.

True multi user capabilities.

The ability to change the graphical environment to suit your needs.

The ability to truly use the system as a user, protecting the OS as a whole from system wide compromise.

The ability to run on almost any hardware.

Built in virtualization.

A plethora of filesystem support and physical/logical disk management.

Yeah, linux obviously has it real bad.

Reply Score: 13

RE: just to make a point
by Luminair on Fri 30th Sep 2011 02:57 UTC in reply to "just to make a point"
Luminair Member since:
2007-03-30

the linux desktop user share has been 1% +/- 1% for a very long time. you can see why someone would be skeptical of your claims.

Reply Score: 2

v RE[2]: just to make a point
by Slambert666 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 03:06 UTC in reply to "RE: just to make a point"
RE: just to make a point
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 03:03 UTC in reply to "just to make a point"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Firefox, Thunderbird, transmission, k3b, Libre Office, vlc, virtualbox, gedit, gimp, blender, wine, chrome, picasa, eclipse, .... do I really need to keep going?


If your point was that there are a large number of freedom software apps that work equally well on Linux or Windows, then no you don't need to go further, that is a given.

What is your point here, however? The apps do work on Linux desktops.

Why don't we talk about the things that Linux has on the desktop that Windows doesn't? One service to update most if not all software on the system, seamlessly. True multi user capabilities. The ability to change the graphical environment to suit your needs. The ability to truly use the system as a user, protecting the OS as a whole from system wide compromise. The ability to run on almost any hardware. Built in virtualization. A plethora of filesystem support and physical/logical disk management. Yeah, linux obviously has it real bad.


These are all fine points, and perfectly true. It is great that I can run great Linux applications in such an environment.

The problem is I suppose that most people would see these as features of the OS, rather than as desktop applications.

Edited 2011-09-30 03:21 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: just to make a point
by manjabes on Fri 30th Sep 2011 06:25 UTC in reply to "just to make a point"
manjabes Member since:
2005-08-27

Why don't we talk about the things that Linux has on the desktop that Windows doesn't?
...
True multi user capabilities.
...


WTF is this "TRUE" multi user capability that Windows doesn't have? Like, HELLO, Win9x was killed (thank god!) a decade ago!
And then you get offended because somebody dares to remember their latest buntu update bonking graphics drivers a year or two ago...

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: just to make a point
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 06:35 UTC in reply to "RE: just to make a point"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"Why don't we talk about the things that Linux has on the desktop that Windows doesn't? ... True multi user capabilities. ...
WTF is this "TRUE" multi user capability that Windows doesn't have? Like, HELLO, Win9x was killed (thank god!) a decade ago! And then you get offended because somebody dares to remember their latest buntu update bonking graphics drivers a year or two ago... "

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_is_windows_said_to_be_a_multiuser_ope...

"windows does have the facility to give access to different users. That is the reason we can log on to different user accounts on windows. But windows does not give access to multiple users at the same time in a single processor system."

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: just to make a point
by manjabes on Fri 30th Sep 2011 06:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: just to make a point"
manjabes Member since:
2005-08-27


"windows does have the facility to give access to different users. That is the reason we can log on to different user accounts on windows. But windows does not give access to multiple users at the same time in a single processor system."

And why is it important on a desktop/laptop system exactly to have multiple users simultaneously access one system? How can multiple users use one desktop system simultaneously anyway?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: just to make a point
by ephracis on Fri 30th Sep 2011 07:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: just to make a point"
ephracis Member since:
2007-09-23

Most people would use their laptop as a server if they were able to.
</sarcasm>

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: just to make a point
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 07:24 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: just to make a point"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

" "windows does have the facility to give access to different users. That is the reason we can log on to different user accounts on windows. But windows does not give access to multiple users at the same time in a single processor system."
And why is it important on a desktop/laptop system exactly to have multiple users simultaneously access one system? How can multiple users use one desktop system simultaneously anyway? "

I didn't say it was or wasn't important to be "true multi-user" for any given context. My post only points out the way in which Windows is not considered to be "true multi-user".

But anyway, if you do want a context where "true multi-user" is important in a desktop context, read about this:

http://knowledgeoman.com/en/forums/showthread.php?996-Brazil-Deploy...

"Mauricio Piacentini writes about a deployment of systems running Linux and KDE in Brazil's schools; some 52 million students are to be served by this initiative."

They deployed Linux desktops to 52 million Brazillian students, but they didn't deploy 52 million machines. I think they can have up to 10 students running off any given single Linux machine at the same time.

Edited 2011-09-30 07:32 UTC

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: just to make a point
by karunko on Fri 30th Sep 2011 09:54 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: just to make a point"
karunko Member since:
2008-10-28

"
"windows does have the facility to give access to different users. That is the reason we can log on to different user accounts on windows. But windows does not give access to multiple users at the same time in a single processor system."

And why is it important on a desktop/laptop system exactly to have multiple users simultaneously access one system? How can multiple users use one desktop system simultaneously anyway?
"

From over the network, local or not, maybe? You know, like when there is a "main" computer in the household that you can access with a notebook, tablet, or even an older, less powerful PC?

Granted, maybe most people don't consider it an essential feature, maybe they don't even think about it, but that doesn't make it any less useful.


RT.

Reply Score: 3

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

My desktop used to be in a seporate room from my TV. I would regularily work in the TV room through a notebook "thinkclient" giving me my power/apps/data and session login on the desktop. I've even seen a browser crash out only to recover the session when I next logged into the desktop directly.

The catch here is that any other valid user could go sit infront of the desktop and use it normally without noticing that I was also logged in and using it.

I've also seen several developers logged in and working on the same desktop through local and remote connections.

With a Windows desktop, it's one user at a time. With a Windows server it's one user at a time unless you shell out the cost of Terminal Server CALs.

Reply Score: 3

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

On Windows7, I can easily switch between users but I can not have two users logged into there own sessions concurrently. Alternatively, I can have two users concurrently logged into there own seporate sessions on the same machine.

Now, centralized multiple concurent user systems might not be the average need for everyone's home desktop but it's sure come in handy for me many times.

I've also seen some very nice lab setups where the students are all running off sessions hosted by the same back end server. A quick look at the Windows terminal server licensing model kills that idea quick for something as budget constrained as a school.

Reply Score: 2

RE: just to make a point
by clasqm on Fri 30th Sep 2011 07:58 UTC in reply to "just to make a point"
clasqm Member since:
2010-09-23

The ability to truly use the system as a user, protecting the OS as a whole from system wide compromise.


Nothing shows up the Linux mentality like this does. The easily re-installed OS and easily re-installed apps must be protected at all costs. But my documents that I've written over the last two decades, the pictures of my kids, my collections of music and films, the digital record of my whole friggin' LIFE, well that can be blown away. It's all about the machine, not the user.

Sure, it's a valid way to run a system. But don't tout it as an advantage to the user.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: just to make a point
by r_a_trip on Fri 30th Sep 2011 12:53 UTC in reply to "RE: just to make a point"
r_a_trip Member since:
2005-07-06

So, tell me, how well do Windows and OS X, as a pure OS, protect your own files in case of a malware infection? My guess, not to good.

The protection of your own unique files is called back up. There are additions that can be bundled with/installed on an OS, like Time Machine, TimeVault and Genie Timeline which make this easy. However, this is not a function of the OS itself.

I hope you realise that your own base system doesn't do anything to keep your own files safe and that you have back up mechanisms in place to guard against potential file loss.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: just to make a point
by moondevil on Fri 30th Sep 2011 18:14 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: just to make a point"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

The same was as any UNIX based OS, with proper user rights. It is there since Windows NT 3.51, it is just a matter of proper configuration.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by lemur2
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 05:02 UTC
lemur2
Member since:
2007-02-17

There is a lot of downvoting going on in this thread, especially when any poster points out great features of Linux on the desktop, or good applications that are available for it, especially good applications that don't run on Windows.

Someone has an agenda, apparently.

Miguel, is that you?

Reply Score: 3

RE: Comment by lemur2
by pandronic on Fri 30th Sep 2011 05:31 UTC in reply to "Comment by lemur2"
pandronic Member since:
2006-05-18

No, just that most people don't live in a Linux reality distortion field.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Comment by lemur2
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 05:58 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by lemur2"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

No, just that most people don't live in a Linux reality distortion field.


You wouldn't be trying to avoid the question by any chance? Anything but address the actual point, hey?

In what way is pointing out the existence of a number of better-than-other-alternatives desktop applications which don't run on Windows in any way supposed to be "living in a Linux reality distortion field"?

Hmmmmm?

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Comment by lemur2
by ephracis on Fri 30th Sep 2011 07:12 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by lemur2"
ephracis Member since:
2007-09-23

better-than-other-alternatives

Citation needed.

I didn't vote but I would guess that people just don't agree with your *opinion* (actually one shouldn't downvote because of disagreement but my guess is that that's how people use it).

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Comment by lemur2
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 07:20 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by lemur2"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"better-than-other-alternatives
Citation needed. I didn't vote but I would guess that people just don't agree with your *opinion* (actually one shouldn't downvote because of disagreement but my guess is that that's how people use it). "

Au contraire, it is the Windows fans who are trying to make the extraordinary claim here. Their claim is that there are no good Linux desktop applications.

All I have to do is point out that there are, in fact, some Linux desktop applications that aren't matched by anything on Windows. My point is made.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Comment by lemur2
by lucas_maximus on Fri 30th Sep 2011 09:24 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by lemur2"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Au contraire, it is the Windows fans who are trying to make the extraordinary claim here. Their claim is that there are no good Linux desktop applications.


Miguel Said,

"I have to say, I actually like Windows 8," he told Anderson. "I am not a Windows user. It’s probably the first time that I would use a Windows machine."


The guys hasn't even used a Windows machine until now ... So he isn't ... it is a *nux user that is saying this.

Edited 2011-09-30 09:26 UTC

Reply Score: 2

v RE[3]: Comment by lemur2
by pandronic on Fri 30th Sep 2011 11:36 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by lemur2"
RE[4]: Comment by lemur2
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 13:02 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by lemur2"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

My experience as a user, power user and web developer with Linux is just a long series of compromises, hacks and workarounds to get things kind of working. Inevitably I always fall back to Windows and even OS X where magically my video card works, my proprietary applications do their jobs perfectly and open all my files correctly, I can play all my games, I can transfer files to my Yahoo Messenger buddies and so on ...


Pfft. What is the point of lying so? Any idiot can put a Linux LiveCD into an optical drive and boot it. If it runs properly (as it nearly always does) then it runs properly.

Power user? You must be more like a half-wit.

Does lying make you feel good or something?

Edited 2011-09-30 13:03 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Comment by lemur2
by pandronic on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:57 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by lemur2"
pandronic Member since:
2006-05-18

I presume you told yourself enough times that Desktop Linux is worth a damn that you eventually started to believe it. Now that you've made your crappy decision you try to shove it down other people's throats just to feel validated. Or maybe it works for you: even using Linux you can troll comment threads.

I said:

So don't give me this troll crap that Desktop Linux is ready for anything because it's either a damned lie or your wet dream.


And now you say:
Does lying make you feel good or something?


Are you for real? I'll try to keep the discussion at a level that you'll understand:

No, you!!1

Reply Score: 2

Comment by Mystilleef
by Mystilleef on Fri 30th Sep 2011 05:24 UTC
Mystilleef
Member since:
2005-06-29

Isn't that true for every platform on earth? Good software is hard to find, period! It doesn't matter if it's on Linux, Windows, OS X, Android, iPhone or the Web.

Reply Score: 4

I'll give it a try
by kragil on Fri 30th Sep 2011 05:32 UTC
kragil
Member since:
2006-01-04

1. Firefox
2. Thunderbird
3. LibreOffice
4. Chrome/Chromium
5. Blender
6. Transmission
7. Nautilus
8. Okular
9. Calibre
10. VLC
11. MPlayer
12. Amarok
13. Banshee
14. Konqeror
15. OpenShot
16. Audacity
17. Grip
18. Hydrogen
19. Muse
20. Rosegarden
21. Gimp
22. Inkscape
23. KToon
24. Krita
25. Hugin
26. Scribus
27. Synfig
28. Avidemux
29. Recordmydesktop
30. Conky
31. Filezilla
32. GParted
33. K3B
34. Pidgin
35. VNC
36. Eclipse
37. Gobby
38. Quanta
39. GnomeDo
40. Homebank
41. QtCreator
42. Gnumeric


This is a geek discussion so I will stop at 42 and I haven't even named editors and terminals etc ;-)
Just because all the Windows and Mac people don't care about Linux and don't know apps that don't have big marketing budgets does not mean that there aren't great apps on Linux.
Sure Linux is lacking in the Games and Video editing department, but tools for working with text/code and sound are top.

Reply Score: 7

RE: I'll give it a try
by Slambert666 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 05:43 UTC in reply to "I'll give it a try"
Slambert666 Member since:
2008-10-30


...
7. Nautilus
...


From the article:

"When you count how many great desktop apps there are on Linux, you can probably name 10,"


If you put nautilus on the list you are obviously not talking about "great" apps or you definition of "great" is radically different than mine.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: I'll give it a try
by kragil on Fri 30th Sep 2011 05:54 UTC in reply to "RE: I'll give it a try"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

With all the functionality Konqeror and Nautilus provide I sure as hell count them as great desktop apps. Great apps are apps that you can use all day and that do everything you need. To me that is the only sane definition. Finder and Explorer don't compare IMO.

Edited 2011-09-30 05:56 UTC

Reply Score: 3

v RE[3]: I'll give it a try
by Slambert666 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 11:03 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I'll give it a try"
RE[4]: I'll give it a try
by sorpigal on Fri 30th Sep 2011 11:56 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I'll give it a try"
sorpigal Member since:
2005-11-02

Usability defects are neither here nor there (normal people don't notice, much less care).

Cute program names are mostly invisible to users in any case.

Nautilus sucks for sound technical reasons.

I can think of half a dozen things which are easily more frustrating.

Reply Score: 2

RE: I'll give it a try
by cyrilleberger on Fri 30th Sep 2011 09:26 UTC in reply to "I'll give it a try"
cyrilleberger Member since:
2006-02-01

For video editing, we are getting there with kdenlive. Now it is reasonnably stable, the biggest problem remains video encoding, since most distribution cripples ffmpeg to respect the stupid pattents.

Reply Score: 5

RE: I'll give it a try
by Straho on Fri 30th Sep 2011 09:47 UTC in reply to "I'll give it a try"
Straho Member since:
2011-09-30

I'll try also.
I.My great CLI apps
1.SSH, SCP
2.ranger
3.nano
4.rtorrent
5.ncmpcpp
II.My great GUI apps
1.kate - most advance Linux TE. On windows I use UltraEdit, but trey are different - some feature missed in UE and other missed in kate.
2.Okular - it's not only PDF viewer, I should use a couple windows apps to get that productivity.
3.Amarok, Clementine
4.VLC
5.KJots - great app for note taking, never find something similar for windows.
6.IDE - eclipse, QTCreator, SQLDeveloper, JDeveloper, eric - daily I use at least 2 of them (work or hobby) and they are powerfull and has all feature of modern IDE(atleast all I need)
7.KRunner - it's great. On windows I use Launchy, which is also Linux app.
8.Blender, GIMP, Scribus, digiKam - I never used this for complex work, but this doesn't do them less great.
9.Calibre - I've Kindle, Nook and smartphone with epub reader. They love calibre and calibre love them.
10.k3b
I use real multyuser and virtual desktop capabilities
of Linux.
What I need and found only for windows:
1.XMLSpy - really mature xml editor. I don't like XMLSpy with wine or java based editix enough
2.Toad for Oracle
3.PLSQLDeveloper
What I want in the future:
1.Dolphin - It's good but I need a few missing options.
2.UML, ER Diagram mature application - Umbrello is good, but not great.
Daily I use less than 15 different apps on Linux or Windows. Monthly no more than 30 different.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: I'll give it a try
by Elv13 on Sun 2nd Oct 2011 17:05 UTC in reply to "RE: I'll give it a try"
Elv13 Member since:
2006-06-12

Umbrello 3 will be OK. But I can't tell how much time it will take us to get there. Expect keyboard friendly usage, docked tools (like MySQL workbench bottom part), documentation parsing, dictionary based documentation auto generation and retro generation. New, modern, canvas, reworked dialogs and much more.

Reply Score: 2

RE: I'll give it a try
by lucas_maximus on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:08 UTC in reply to "I'll give it a try"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Most of those apps are available for Windows as well. Linux ONLY

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: I'll give it a try
by Straho on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:53 UTC in reply to "RE: I'll give it a try"
Straho Member since:
2011-09-30

Why? Because linux community can write portability code. If you could say that app was produce 3 months earlier for windows they I could understand your point. You can't say it's run on windows so it's not linux app. If some application from Linux native is compiled for windows it's needed. When windows app is introduce for linux it's also because it's needed and wanted from many, many linux users.
VirtalBox use .VirtualBox directory in User home dir, so probably it's only linux app, isn't it?

Edited 2011-09-30 10:58 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: I'll give it a try
by lucas_maximus on Fri 30th Sep 2011 11:28 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I'll give it a try"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

The whole point of what he was saying there is no compelling "Killer App" for the platform to make it a compelling alternative.

Also regarding portability I have heard BSD guys (that I used to go to class with) porting code from Linux to BSD and pulling their hair out because of the number of Linux-isms.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: I'll give it a try
by kragil on Fri 30th Sep 2011 12:00 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I'll give it a try"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

He also says nothing about Killer apps, that is all just in your imagination.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: I'll give it a try
by lucas_maximus on Fri 30th Sep 2011 13:03 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: I'll give it a try"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

The context of it is obvious, and Also I am not the only person that is taking it in this context judging by comments on this articles alone.

Being a pedant doesn't help the discussion

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: I'll give it a try
by kragil on Fri 30th Sep 2011 13:42 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: I'll give it a try"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

BS. He is talking about great desktop apps. Nothing more, nothing less.

Reply Score: 4

RE[7]: I'll give it a try
by lucas_maximus on Fri 30th Sep 2011 13:47 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: I'll give it a try"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Killer Apps can be desktop apps ... You can use the terms interchangably in this context. Stop being a pedant.

Edited 2011-09-30 13:47 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: I'll give it a try
by Straho on Fri 30th Sep 2011 12:48 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I'll give it a try"
Straho Member since:
2011-09-30

The whole point of what he was saying there is no compelling "Killer App" for the platform to make it a compelling alternative.

I never found this application on Windows, Mac, BSD, Solaris, Haiku, iOS, Android, Bada, Maego, Meemo, webOS, Symbian, HP-UX or AIX.
Also regarding portability I have heard BSD guys (that I used to go to class with) porting code from Linux to BSD and pulling their hair out because of the number of Linux-isms.

It's not an answer. I don't understand what you want to say with this. How hard is to port VLC to BSD? What's difference between VLC for Linux and Windows? What's the difference between SQLDeveloper for 32-bit Windows, for 64-bit Windows, for Mac OS X, for Linux, for other platforms? They all are 147M zips. I use SQLDeveloper, but didn't think about that until now, and I could assure you there's no difference between them from users point of view. Off course skype isn't Linux app only because you could install it on Linux, but most of others application are Linux application.
You could install KDE with windows. That's mean that KDE isn't Linux, is it?

The truth is that many Linux applications have Windows version and vice versa. That's because users wanted it.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: I'll give it a try
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 12:50 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I'll give it a try"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

The whole point of what he was saying there is no compelling "Killer App" for the platform to make it a compelling alternative.


The whole point of responses is that there is no "Killer App" for any other desktop platform either.

The "Killer feature" of Linux is its um-matchable value-for-money.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: I'll give it a try
by r_a_trip on Fri 30th Sep 2011 13:02 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I'll give it a try"
r_a_trip Member since:
2005-07-06

About that. What is the compelling "Killer App" for Windows and/or OS X?

Do we still have Killer Apps?

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: I'll give it a try
by lucas_maximus on Fri 30th Sep 2011 13:09 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: I'll give it a try"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

TBH for me it is Visual Studio 2010 and SQL Server Management studio are the big reasons as well as the reliability of Win 7.

But non-dev stuff ... I am not so sure.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: I'll give it a try - games
by jabbotts on Fri 30th Sep 2011 18:27 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: I'll give it a try"
jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

Games are indeed entertainment applications. I'd love to get native installs of Dragon Age and Shogun Total War 2 on my Debian box but as it stands, if I want an hour or two of gaming in my down time then it means rebooting.

The up side is that I can tune Windows purely towards game performance.

The down side is that I have to stop all the productive stuff my machine is doing under Debian.

Reply Score: 2

jabbotts Member since:
2007-09-06

Generally, if the developer does not change how the application saves user data, it'll simply create a directory directly under the Windows user profile.

Virtualbox on *nix
/home/user/.virtualbox

Virtualbox on Windows
/documents and settings/user/virtualbox
/users/user/virtualbox

I gather it's the same for osX:
/users/user/.virtualbox

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: I'll give it a try
by kragil on Fri 30th Sep 2011 11:53 UTC in reply to "RE: I'll give it a try"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

*Citation needed. He says nothing about Linux only.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: I'll give it a try
by lucas_maximus on Fri 30th Sep 2011 12:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I'll give it a try"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Way to go to miss the point of the article.

Reading comprehension fail.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: I'll give it a try
by kragil on Fri 30th Sep 2011 13:49 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I'll give it a try"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

Just because you think great desktop app means: mythical-system-only-killer-application doesn't mean everybody else has to be live with that delusion.

I dare you to name 10 mythical-system-only-killer-desktop-applications that will people make switch desktops for Windows or OSX. Waiting ...

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: I'll give it a try
by lucas_maximus on Fri 30th Sep 2011 14:27 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: I'll give it a try"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

You are being a pedant for the sake of it. It is pathetic.

Reply Score: 0

RE: I'll give it a try
by qbast on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:34 UTC in reply to "I'll give it a try"
qbast Member since:
2010-02-08

Your list can be divided into four (nonexclusive) groups:
1) Multiplatform applications like thunderbird
2) Basic utilities that have as capable counterparts for Windows: for example gparted
3) Cheap knockoffs used only because they don't cost anything or because there is nothing better for linux: LibreOffice is good example here

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: I'll give it a try
by kragil on Fri 30th Sep 2011 11:57 UTC in reply to "RE: I'll give it a try"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

Your list can be divided into four (nonexclusive) groups:
1) Multiplatform applications like thunderbird
2) Basic utilities that have as capable counterparts for Windows: for example gparted
3) Cheap knockoffs used only because they don't cost anything or because there is nothing better for linux: LibreOffice is good example here


1) So?
2) Which as capable counterpart to gparted is *free*?
3) I think MSOffice is bloated unintuitive expensive crap and actually like LibreOffice.
4) ???
??? You said four groups ??? Where is number four? Counting is hard I guess.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: I'll give it a try
by Straho on Fri 30th Sep 2011 13:16 UTC in reply to "RE: I'll give it a try"
Straho Member since:
2011-09-30

Your list can be divided into four (nonexclusive) groups:
1) Multiplatform applications like thunderbird
2) Basic utilities that have as capable counterparts for Windows: for example gparted
3) Cheap knockoffs used only because they don't cost anything or because there is nothing better for linux: LibreOffice is good example here

1) I can't name more than 10 great windows apps, which aren't multyplatform.
2) You're kidding. GParted support more file systems than Windows. Do you know btrfs, I make tests with Oracle 11g and btrfs.
3) Yeah, I know people talk how power is MSOffice. I don't need something like that. I almost don't use Libre/Open Office, Calligra Office suit, MSOffice or other.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: I'll give it a try
by qbast on Fri 30th Sep 2011 13:36 UTC in reply to "RE: I'll give it a try"
qbast Member since:
2010-02-08

1) So they can hardly be called "linux" applications. The bottom line is that on Windows you can have every good application from linux (or more capable substitute), but not the other way around.
2) Why should it be free?
3) Good for you. At least until you want to send your document to anybody else.
4) Fourth category was basically reworded second, so I removed it.

Reply Score: 2

D'oh!
by marcp on Fri 30th Sep 2011 06:31 UTC
marcp
Member since:
2007-11-23

No way. I managed to get at least 39 great apps [counted]. I guess it's sufficient, as it suits all of my needs.

But I don't use Gnome.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by Gone fishing
by Gone fishing on Fri 30th Sep 2011 07:33 UTC
Gone fishing
Member since:
2006-02-22

What is a great application? In comparison to a good application? is this meaningful?

Personally I use:

Firefox
Google Chrome
Thunderbird
Skype
Gimp
Xara Xtreme
Rhythmplayer
VLC
SMPlayer
Gcompris
K3b
Gparted
Libreoffice
Stellarium
Pidgin

I'm not sure they are all "Great" but they are all useable functional and allow the PC to be useful. I get the point in its day BeOS was a much, much better OS than Windows 95 but had few apps - this was one of the main reasons for its demise.

However, Linux is not in this position you have a useable Desktop, as for – “the year of the Linux Desktop” it’s been and gone.

I prefer the Linux Desktop to Windows, currently I’m using Unity on 11.10 a great Desktop, I’m sure that if I could be bothered I would find KDE a great Desktop too and both of them superior in many ways to the Windows 7 Desktop, I’m tempted to mention Vista here, but I won’t – but I wonder how many knowledgeable computer users are confident about windows 8? . Linux has been a viable alternative to Windows for years – I find it surprising that so few people have noticed. Probably the lack of MS Office, Photoshop etc is a powerful reason.

The solution better compatibility with Wine? A compatibility layer for Mac apps, better Linux apps – I don’t know

Edited 2011-09-30 07:39 UTC

Reply Score: 6

Portability
by juzzlin on Fri 30th Sep 2011 07:54 UTC
juzzlin
Member since:
2011-05-06

I don't get this "Linux desktop app - Windows desktop app - Mac desktop app"-thing. It's 90's. Great software is something that can be ported to all major platforms. There shouldn't be any "Windows counterparts" for a Linux application. It should be the same application!

Reply Score: 4

RE: Portability
by Straho on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:02 UTC in reply to "Portability"
Straho Member since:
2011-09-30

It's even worse with mobile OS. Thousands of note taking apps for dozen OS which are graetlessly.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Portability
by Soulbender on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:43 UTC in reply to "Portability"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

No, you see...us *nix folks need to write crappier apps that are not portable because that,uh, is, uh, better.... Ok, admittedly that's completely illogical but never mind that. Just remember: portable != not good. Platform lock-in == awesome.

Edited 2011-09-30 15:43 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Let me see
by acobar on Fri 30th Sep 2011 08:34 UTC
acobar
Member since:
2005-11-15

This guy started gnome because he didn't like the license qt had at that time and, years latter, somehow, have no spats with .net? That makes lots of sense.

I would ask him: cite just one really good .net application that does not have a single C++ (or any other language) counterpart of, at least, same or better level of functionality? He has been chasing .net for years and now, it seems, with all turnarounds that are happening on Microsoft with the Windows 8 platform, he will have a way slippery path to play with. Not saying .net and C# are crap, they aren't, they are excellent to write business applications around Microsoft base technology (MS Office, MS Exchange and SharePoint mostly), i.e., to help empower MS. But frankly, I never saw how they could help empower the FOSS community, as Microsoft was never clear enough about the most important parts of .net.

I have to say "thank you" to him as he started mc (at that time a bad "copy" of Norton Commander - I am specially grateful to the current maintainer) and, perhaps, if his action on starting gnome somehow contributed to the current license qt has now. But his push towards mono didn't contribute to improve the FOSS stance against the "competing alternatives".

Reply Score: 6

RE: Let me see
by lucas_maximus on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:10 UTC in reply to "Let me see"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

He is actually ahead of .NET ... Mono has some features that aren't in .NET.

http://thisdeveloperslife.com/post/1-0-7-audacity

You may wish to listen to this.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Let me see
by dsmogor on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:25 UTC in reply to "Let me see"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

Linux desktop doesn't need any of the prorietary MS apis to sort out its developer story.
What is needs is stable, modern, systemwide OO api (best if managed). All that could be build on top of CLR without even touching any of MS IP tainted parts.
Best would be if somebody managed to seamlessly integrate QT and CLR (add something like pInvoke for QT objects), to get native support sorted out.

The answers so far for system level integration was: use C abi or sockets, technologies outdated for app integration 2 decades ago.

Edited 2011-09-30 10:31 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Let me see
by acobar on Fri 30th Sep 2011 13:33 UTC in reply to "RE: Let me see"
acobar Member since:
2005-11-15

And why should I use it then instead of Qt directly? And who is going to keep it up-to-date while Qt evolves?

Fact is, it is hard enough to keep one framework "almost" platform independent and I don't think it is wise to make it even harder trying to maintain two.

For all the beauty and sugar syntax C# has, its power would be if we could code on it on a "platform independent" style. That is not going to happen as Microsoft is not willing to allow it, it seems.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Let me see
by Slambert666 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Let me see"
Slambert666 Member since:
2008-10-30

And why should I use it then instead of Qt directly? And who is going to keep it up-to-date while Qt evolves?


You know that you can use C# and QT at the same time right? Use the Qyoto bindings for QT.

Reply Score: 2

Lets see here
by aliquis on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:35 UTC
aliquis
Member since:
2005-07-23

There's Cedaga, aterm, screen in aterm, irssi in aterm, mutt in aterm, vim in aterm, K3B, gvim...

... uhm... uhm... Any IM client?

So far I can only name 8 =P


Opera!! That's 9 .. Is Reason ported to Linux? =P

Let's add Keldons Race for the galaxy AI and we're up to 10.

Easy ;)

Now which of those are Linux only?

Edited 2011-09-30 10:38 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Boils down to...
by andih on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:42 UTC
andih
Member since:
2010-03-27

Looks like it pretty much boils down this:

That noob users that cant live without fancy and glossy noob software, and dont care enough to learn the ways of a free and better OS, should stick with windows should a little longer.. (And thats no great loss for the linux community btw)

The smart people that want to be able to install and keep updated great software like nmap, lynx, irssi, gimp, rsync, vim/emacs, or whatever beautiful gem, pretty much has started using Linux already.

E.g, on laptop Im writing on now, nmap is just a few keystrokes away: aptitude install nmap

If you use windows and are browsing the web to find small and beautiful tools like theese, you should make the switch.. You'll not going to miss cmd, defragging, antivirus/-spyware, reboots, license numbers, validations, and all that useless crap ;)
Youll notgoing to miss the bill either, or the endless chain of new releases that you have to buy..

Noob users will have to keep up with that a little longer though, well unless they know a linuxer who can help them setting up a useful computer.. ;)

I totally agree with lemur2 and fast_riswaan. Spot on.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Boils down to...
by Slambert666 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:52 UTC in reply to "Boils down to..."
Slambert666 Member since:
2008-10-30

ITT: 12 year olds pretending to be 1337 h4x0rz.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Boils down to...
by andih on Fri 30th Sep 2011 13:44 UTC in reply to "RE: Boils down to..."
andih Member since:
2010-03-27

I don't know who you think are 12 year old that consider themselves elite hackers..
But I think here are very few 12 y.olds at osnews..

But to speak for my self, Im three times that age and system engineer and administrator as my profession.
Use both linux, windows and some bsd.

I enjoy working with linux because the only limits there are technology and my own mind and creativity.

Working with windows is different.. MS do as they like and one have to do as they want and use the solutions that they want to support, even if there are better solutions. One have to pay licenses for everything.. even for allowing more than a few RDP connections to a server (!!) Something thats basic functionality in linux (well nor rdp though..but xrdp is pretty cool).. Even my wireless access-point@home can handle as many ssh connections that HW can handle:p


Working with software and OSes that are full of DRM, and are limiting and defective by design is not something I enjoy at least.. Good thing people are different :p

Enjoy your windows or whatever you like :p

Reply Score: 3

Unfortunately true
by Gullible Jones on Fri 30th Sep 2011 10:55 UTC
Gullible Jones
Member since:
2006-05-23

Yes, high-quality desktop apps are definitely lacking in my Linux experience. And it's not just because they're FOSS - open source apps for Windows tend to be higher quality than those for Linux. Heck, the same FOSS application is often better on Windows than on Linux - look at Firefox.

Taken overall though, I feel that Linux is a higher quality OS than Windows for my purposes - mostly because it succeeds in annoying me less. Also, it's free, so there's less reason to complain. But I do think this stuff needs to be said.

BTW. What's this stuff about "We don't need stable APIs. we don't need binary compatibility"? How many people actually want to waste hours and hours compiling a huge desktop application so it works on their computer (other than teenagers running Gentoo)? How many companies want to write software that uses a moving target API? Proprietary software is not going away, and if Linux is to gain market share on the desktop, developers need to accept that, and make it possible for proprietary as well as FOSS software to easily run on Linux.

But it does look like I'm kidding myself, doesn't it? Microsoft is still King, and we're still pouring endless money (and endless lives, don't forget the tantalum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltan ) into constant hardware upgrades we don't even need. The vicious cycle continues apace, and we can't stop it, oh no, because it's CAPITALISM and capitalism is ALWAYS GOOD.

SMN.

Edited 2011-09-30 10:58 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE: Unfortunately true
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 11:08 UTC in reply to "Unfortunately true"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

What's this stuff about "We don't need stable APIs. we don't need binary compatibility"? How many people actually want to waste hours and hours compiling a huge desktop application so it works on their computer


Linux users don't need a stable API in order to avoid having to spend hours and hours compiling a huge desktop application so it works on their computer.

http://packages.ubuntu.com/oneiric/blender

Just install it with the package manager.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Unfortunately true
by zlynx on Mon 3rd Oct 2011 17:22 UTC in reply to "RE: Unfortunately true"
zlynx Member since:
2005-07-20

Only works if someone else packaged it for that distribution.

Have fun trying to run an older application that no one cared about.

I remember trying to build XTank and NetTrek for Linux back in 2001 I think. Not fun.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Unfortunately true
by lemur2 on Tue 4th Oct 2011 01:45 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Unfortunately true"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Only works if someone else packaged it for that distribution. Have fun trying to run an older application that no one cared about. I remember trying to build XTank and NetTrek for Linux back in 2001 I think. Not fun.


One would have more ability to take XTank and NetTrek and improve on them than one would for any commercial game.

There are literally tens of thousands of packages in Debian/Ubuntu repositories, and in the case of Ubuntu, perhaps a hundred thousand more in external repositories such as launchpad.

The thing with Linux is that for the majority of packages available for it, one CAN compile the source. Legally. If one wants to. For the majority of packages for Windows, one can't.

Out of the two scenarios, the former is better than the latter for users.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Unfortunately true
by lemur2 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 13:45 UTC in reply to "Unfortunately true"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Yes, high-quality desktop apps are definitely lacking in my Linux experience. And it's not just because they're FOSS - open source apps for Windows tend to be higher quality than those for Linux.


Here is a nice integrated Office suite that achieves power through smaller apps which can all use one another's data. Being smaller, each app loads much faster than any part of MS Office.

http://www.calligra-suite.org/

Version 2.4 is still in Beta, it isn't due for release until next month. This release will include new applications in Brain-dump and Plan, and it also features the return of Flow.

Being lighter-weight, it can run handily even on netbooks and tablets (Calligra Mobile and Calligra Active.).

Exceptional value-for-money. Doesn't need a monster system to run really well.

Nice. Neat. Linux only.

Edited 2011-09-30 13:50 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Unfortunately true
by Hiev on Fri 30th Sep 2011 14:28 UTC in reply to "RE: Unfortunately true"
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

Save that lame propaganda for the people who has never used Linux or Caligra, because the ones who had know pretty much how Caligra is incomplete, buggy and can't be compared to MS Office.

Reply Score: 3

Why Linux only
by righard on Fri 30th Sep 2011 11:12 UTC
righard
Member since:
2007-12-26

Everybody keeps complaining here that the list of software should be Linux only. I think that is stupid, most software in Linux is opensource and is written using GUI-frameworks already ported to Windows. It's a breeze to port it over to Windows so somebody is bound to do it. That is a good thing.

If I need to make a list of very good software that is written so it can't be ported to Windows, then no, I can't even make it to ten.

Well, this was my last comment in a Linux v. Windows thread. I'm just going back to my operating system with just, I don't care, 100 users and I'll continue drinking ginger beer, even though Cola is a way more popular soft drink.

Edited 2011-09-30 11:12 UTC

Reply Score: 7

20
by korpenkraxar on Fri 30th Sep 2011 11:22 UTC
korpenkraxar
Member since:
2005-09-10

20 nice assorted apps I use all the time on my Linux machines:

Firefox
Thunderbird
Inkscape
Shotwell
Banshee
VLC
Avidemux
ffmpeg+mplayer+GUI frontends
Padre
Virtualbox
XBMC
gedit
Dolphin
Frozen Bubble
Gparted
Brasero
LibreOffice
Baobab
Geany
Back in Time

Reply Score: 6

RE: 20
by Ford Prefect on Fri 30th Sep 2011 12:55 UTC in reply to "20"
Ford Prefect Member since:
2006-01-16

Your list looks familiar to me. Let me add another 10 of my favorites to that:

mplayer
Scribus
Qt Creator
Blender
Gimp
Texmaker
Battle for Wesnoth
ufraw
Okular
Meld


The question for me is: How many application does the user today really use? With linux you don't install a shareware tool for every tiny simple task, like zipping files. If you have 30 apps in your daily use, it is already quite a lot.

Reply Score: 6

Don't bother me!
by fretinator on Fri 30th Sep 2011 13:11 UTC
fretinator
Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm still trying to think of 10 great Windows desktop apps...

Reply Score: 6

RE: Don't bother me!
by Soulbender on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:30 UTC in reply to "Don't bother me!"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

I'm still stuck at coming up with one (because we are, of course, not counting cross-platform apps...).

Reply Score: 3

Comment by static666
by static666 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 14:13 UTC
static666
Member since:
2006-06-09

Yeah, I know lots of people consider Amarok a hallmark among Linux desktop applications. Sometimes they even compare it to iTunes and Windows Media Player.

But have you guys ever tried foobar2000 on Windows?

Insane amount of features, taking audiophile needs into account, clean interface, everything is customizable, smart & stable extension API with hundreds of plugin components available online in just 3 MB (!) distribution and its free! Just awesome. It dwarfs bloated crap like iTunes, WMP on Windows and just any other music player on _any_ platform.

Now, last time I checked Amarok distribution for Windows was 92 MB. Trying to install it on Ubuntu 11.04 (with mplayer, vlc and ffmpeg there already - so most of the audio-related deps in place) requires one to download 72.2 MB of archives. Very iTunes-like. What the f***?! Does it have more features than foobar2000? Hardly so.

Next to iTunes, Amarok may be great. Next to foobar2000 it is a joke - why would you even install it having a much better free alternative? Well, at least it supports Replaygain and has a media library, so it can actually be convenient to listen to music, unlike 75% of other music players on Linux. As for Joe the developer, why would you even waste your effort porting it to Windows instead of making your product better on its own platform, where it is needed most?

So, talking about great apps, you need to define a great app first. If not comparing to other platforms, one can find a great piece of software for Linux in any category. But in comparison to the very best from all platforms, unfortunately, Linux apps still feel like half-arsed clones for almost every general-purpose app. Of course, I must admit, they do their job well enough, but their greatness.. is not that great after all.

In the end it all depends on the user - we use what we like.. of what we can (depending on platform).

Since we hear from the Mono Guy spreading FUD about the Linux Desktop in the middle of some MS conference, he might be seeking another position on MS payroll after the latest Win 8 announcements.

P.S. Oh, yeah, must admit - using K in almost every KDE app name is pathetic.

Edited 2011-09-30 14:22 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by static666
by static666 on Fri 30th Sep 2011 14:36 UTC in reply to "Comment by static666"
static666 Member since:
2006-06-09

When comparing applications on different platforms, many people forget about whether the app is free or even open source or not. You can't be serious comparing a product of a bunch of free software developers to the one made by a horde of programmers of some software publishing house.

Well, there are exceptions, like gimp. Apart from missing a number of quite important features photo professionals use, it is an excellent app that can stand to being compared to Photoshop. And it is completely free, while Photoshop is not!

Now, if we look at photo management software, Shotwell is good and it works. Looks like Picasa, perhaps more like version 1.0 of Picasa. That's it. You can't even compare it to the latest Picasa, not even mentioning Adobe Lightroom.

Now, if there's Picasa for Linux, why isn't it on the Linux (i.e. Ubuntu) desktop by default?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by static666
by acobar on Fri 30th Sep 2011 17:45 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by static666"
acobar Member since:
2005-11-15

Gosh, I guess you never tried digiKam did you? You now, people should first do a little research before posting.

Now, I can understand that many people love Windows, this is the platform they learned how to use computers.

There are some very nice Windows applications for sure. For example, I really miss badly Autocad on linux, but that is the ONLY application I miss.

And before I forget, I cross my fingers everyday hoping that LibreOffice will not copy the new MS Office interface

Nothing against Windows or OSX, but they aren't for me.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Comment by static666
by Valhalla on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:44 UTC in reply to "Comment by static666"
Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24


But have you guys ever tried foobar2000 on Windows?

Yes, and last time I used it under wine it ran perfectly. Nowadays I use 'deadbeef' which is a 'linux native' foobar-inspired very lean on resources music-player.

As for Miguel being heartbroken, sure he is but it's not due to lack of linux desktop apps. It's because he was peddling Mono towards the Linux desktop and noone was buying, I remember him whining about the non-existant uptake outside of Novell (where he was developing it) and later Attachmate washed their hands of it when they aquired Novell.

Now he is targeting Mono towards iOS and Android, and that's fine and all but I really doubt it will be a sustainable business. Still, I wish him luck since he certainly loves .NET and I always hope people get to work on what they love.

His bogus claim that Linux haven't got more than 10 great desktop apps though just comes across as petty bitterness as a result of Mono's failure to attract developers on Linux.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Comment by static666
by Soulbender on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:50 UTC in reply to "Comment by static666"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

But have you guys ever tried foobar2000 on Windows?


Yes and it's indeed a very good audio player. For Windows. It's not a patch on Amarok, Clementine or Bangarang though.

P.S. Oh, yeah, must admit - using K in almost every KDE app name is pathetic.


It's almost like that other company that uses "i" in every product name.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Comment by static666
by Dave_K on Fri 30th Sep 2011 23:55 UTC in reply to "Comment by static666"
Dave_K Member since:
2005-11-16


But have you guys ever tried foobar2000 on Windows?


I agree completely. It's easily the best player on Windows, and even with a few glitches, I'd still rate Foobar2000 + WINE as by far the best player on Linux too.

I've tried pretty much every Linux player available, but Amarok and the rest aren't even in the same league.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by static666
by korpenkraxar on Sat 1st Oct 2011 07:16 UTC in reply to "Comment by static666"
korpenkraxar Member since:
2005-09-10

I do not get your argument. What does a great music player like foobar2000 on Windows take away from a great music player like Amarok on Linux?

Why is the number of available configuration options and features the main metric for how good a player is?

In your mind, is there a killer feature in foobar2000 that completely changes the listening experience and which is not available in a Linux music player?

Reply Score: 4

10 really good apps
by jessesmith on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:03 UTC
jessesmith
Member since:
2010-03-11

If the claim was it's hard to list 10 really good Gnome/GTK apps, I'd tend to agree. But 10 really good Linux apps is easy. I'll even start with a GTK app:

GIMP
Clementine
Opera
Firefox
Libre/OpenOffice
Evoluition
Thunderbird
kwrite/gedit
k3b
gwenview
PiTiVi
OpenShot
Kleopatra
Ark
VLC

There, 15 or 16 just from what I personally have installed, not including package managers, compilers, dev tools, emulators or virtual machines. And I can easily come up with another ten for games. There is a lot of wonderful software out there for Linux.

Now the part about breaking APIs are diverging standards/distributions, I completely agree with. Linux is a pain to develop for in that regard. So, yes, it could be a lot better. It should be a lot better, he's right. Let's just not make silly claims about there not being great desktop apps on Linux.

Reply Score: 5

v ...
by Hiev on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:08 UTC
RE: ...
by karunko on Fri 30th Sep 2011 15:42 UTC in reply to "..."
karunko Member since:
2008-10-28

Most of the applications listed here are just a rip off of the Windows and OSX counterparts plus some new options.

Where is the innovation?


Are you just trolling or do you really think that there should be an OS/application exclusive? What about applications available on both Windows AND OS X, then? Who is copying who?

Also: by your reasoning, neither Windows nor OS X should have any networking software, as it all originated on UNIX.


RT.

Reply Score: 6

RE[2]: ...
by Hiev on Fri 30th Sep 2011 16:14 UTC in reply to "RE: ..."
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

It goes like this:

1.- Apple or MS release a catchy application usable not beta.

2.- And suddenly a docent of Linux half baked barely useful clones appear.

3.- The same Application on OSX and Windows is switched to mantainence mode, witch it means bug fixing and minor improvements w/o breaking the first goal of the application.

4.- A half of the linux versions dissapeared cause lack of interest, the other half are in eternal remodelation, not mantainence, every week gains a new useless option that will make the program more complicated and buggy.

5.- The application is not on the trend anymore because another new has arrived.

6.- back to step 1.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: ...
by Soulbender on Fri 30th Sep 2011 17:59 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

witch it means bug fixing and minor improvements w/o breaking the first goal of the application.


Hahaha, Right. That's not how commercial development works.

1.- Apple or MS release a catchy application usable not beta.

2 - And suddenly a docent of Linux half baked barely useful clones appear.


So it's like the opposite of server software?

every week gains a new useless option that will make the program more complicated and buggy.


I think you're confusing OSS applications with the feature-creep most commercial applications end up with since they always need to sell a new, updated version.

The application is not on the trend anymore because another new has arrived.


I can't decipher that sentence.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: ...
by Hiev on Fri 30th Sep 2011 18:24 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ..."
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

I can't understand why you are trying to explain.

Reply Score: 2

official donation/contributor lobby
by fran on Fri 30th Sep 2011 16:09 UTC
fran
Member since:
2010-08-06

Linux Applications need a centralised donation lobby for third party apps.
Something that list the top apps in the specific software categories and keep tabs on dormant/abandoned ones.
A feature requests, code contribution could be thrown into the mix.

O and a few eccentric millionares

(Konquerer is the best file manager ever par none.)

Ardour is getting Midi and VST support
Gimp is moving toward incorporating GEGL for the "bit issue"
Cloud accounting and office software is getting more feature rich and available.

Training materials is becoming more available.
Publishers like Packtpub is help making this happen.

Edited 2011-09-30 16:27 UTC

Reply Score: 2

snozzberry
Member since:
2005-11-14

I did not say "all," I did not say "they suck."

However, from a practical standpoint, clone apps like GIMP and LibreOffice do not strive to develop competitive features that draw in users, they merely aim to match the most commonly used ones.

The FOSS movement is consistently held back by the programmer's mantra "I'm representative of my user base" which results in uninspired feature sets, dismal and frustrating UX, and very little incentive to improve.

If LibreOffice had research tools or business tools that Microsoft Office did not, if GIMP took the notion of professional image editing seriously, if there were a music player that also had dead-easy mashup tools...

... if there were a single Linux-only desktop app that did something original, did it well, and whose developers did not immediately crosscompile it for other platforms, desktop Linux would have had a glimmer of a chance.

I am a web developer. My job is to prioritize platform neutrality so I constantly evaluate OS X, Windows and Linux. Across the three OSes, there is no web development platform comparable to Dreamweaver, either inside or outside FOSS. And DW is not in any sense uncloneable. But, and this is a big but, its useability from beginners to veteran power users is second to none.

Automator is great software. You can argue that shell scripting is more powerful, but you're expecting most people to become shell scripters. Again, FOSS has to develop with real end users in mind, people like your grandparents and your neighbors and those ditzy girls who live in their cellphones.

"Good enough" has damned FOSS desktop apps. Desktop Linux proves, proves that competence without imagination is always going to lose in a competition with commercial products.

Reply Score: 1

karunko Member since:
2008-10-28

However, from a practical standpoint, clone apps like GIMP and LibreOffice do not strive to develop competitive features that draw in users, they merely aim to match the most commonly used ones.

Maybe because the most commonly used are the ones you really need or, at least, going to use on a daily basis? Seems like a sensible approach, if you as me.

Except for that, I sort of agree with the rest of your post. Some Linux applications are ugly and/or buggy, or both, some are half baked and some never make it past the alpha stage.

However, let's not forget the quote that started it all: "When you count how many great desktop apps there are on Linux, you can probably name 10. You work really hard, you can probably name 20." See? The subject of contention, so to speak, is not the merits (or lack thereof) of Linux and/or FOSS as a whole, but the lack of "great" applications -- whatever that means.

The applications available on Linux and *BSD may not be great, but surely get the job done and, again, make for a perfectly viable, alternative platform for people who actually "think different". In other words, that statement is perfect trolling material and, judging by the number of posts in this thread, it got its job done! ;-)


RT.

Reply Score: 2

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

In other words, that statement is perfect trolling material and, judging by the number of posts in this thread, it got its job done! ;-).


I aim to please ;) .

But in all seriousness ... Changing API/ABI is a good way to piss devs off and just drives people away from your platform.

Say what you like about Microsoft they love their devs. The new WinRT framework I can use all my existing HTML and JS skills to create Metro Apps ... so for me there is a very low level for entry for making metro apps.

Edited 2011-09-30 20:00 UTC

Reply Score: 2

boldingd Member since:
2009-02-19

Say what you like about Microsoft they love their devs. The new WinRT framework I can use all my existing HTML and JS skills to create Metro Apps ... so for me there is a very low level for entry for making metro apps.


FWIW I'd strongly disagree. I really hate developing software on Windows. I have some issues with C# as a language -- for example, I think signals and slots in Qt are a much better event syntax than delegates -- and I really don't like Visual C#. XAML is kinda cool, but Qt and GTK both offer roughly-comparable capabilities. Granted I don't have a lot of experience with desktop development, but I've done a very little work with Qt, GTK and WPF in C#, and so far I think I like C#/WPF the least.

Well, I like Java/Swing the least if we include that.

Reply Score: 3

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

I don't like Swing either.

TBH frameworks are like marmite you either love it or hate it. I am very comfortable with .NET and C#.

I have spoken to other very good devs that don't like .NET at all and for very good reasons.

I know what I am developing for and I don't get many suprises with Microsoft and after watching the Win 8 Build demo ... I can use a lot of my existing knowledge to develop desktop apps (I am a web dev).

Edited 2011-09-30 20:21 UTC

Reply Score: 2

boldingd Member since:
2009-02-19

The FOSS movement is consistently held back by the programmer's mantra "I'm representative of my user base" which results in uninspired feature sets, dismal and frustrating UX, and very little incentive to improve.


That can be true; I don't think that it's a given that Linux should be aiming to take on Windows and OS X on "average" user's desktop OS's in the first place. There clearly are a lot of users, mostly tech-savy users, for whom Linux is the optimal choice of operating system, and there are also many more users for whom it's not. That isn't a bad thing; that Linux doesn't work for you doesn't make it stop working well for me.

Reply Score: 4

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

This! I can't vote you up ... but +1

Edited 2011-09-30 20:10 UTC

Reply Score: 2

To osnews staff
by acobar on Fri 30th Sep 2011 17:58 UTC
acobar
Member since:
2005-11-15

Thom Holwerda,

Could you please fix the moderation system for good and for all?

I really see no good reason to not be able to express my agreement with well thought arguments just because I had already posted some of my unfinished ones.

Should I really register "acobar_mod", just to be able to do that?

I think we both agree that is way better to have freedom to express our opinion, even if some idiot abuses the system.

Reply Score: 3

Comment by Bounty
by Bounty on Fri 30th Sep 2011 18:47 UTC
Bounty
Member since:
2006-09-18

For some that prefer open software, "openness" is such an important feature, that it skews their opinion of greatness compared to the "average" person, to whom I think Miguel is concearned with.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by Bounty
by lucas_maximus on Fri 30th Sep 2011 19:40 UTC in reply to "Comment by Bounty"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Very well put.

Reply Score: 2

10 Linux specific apps?
by jabjoe on Fri 30th Sep 2011 20:00 UTC
jabjoe
Member since:
2009-05-06

But good Linux apps pretty much all tend to be cross platform..... that's part of the point of Linux, you aren't locked in. Good apps don't stay Linux specific for long.

How you move people to Linux is you move the apps they use to free ones. Then just change the OS underneath for a faster more secure free one. ;-)

Reply Score: 3

..YES !!!!
by grayskull on Fri 30th Sep 2011 21:33 UTC
grayskull
Member since:
2008-02-08

I found this news good and very positive

Finally we are going to get rid off Migue de Icaza. He loves Mono, he loves .Net, now he might switch to Windows 8.

It is good !!!

de Icaza is the Microsoft Linux Lover and always try to promote MS and close source software inside FLOSS communities. It is better to have him switch to Windows. While developers keep hacking on GNOME on their own.

Reply Score: 3

RE: ..YES !!!!
by lucas_maximus on Fri 30th Sep 2011 21:48 UTC in reply to "..YES !!!!"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Why is it good that someone wants to improve your platform leaves?

http://thisdeveloperslife.com/post/1-0-7-audacity

it might be worth listening to.

He has contributed a lot to Linux and you are saying "f--k off" ... and let other people hack on gnome when he was one of the people that created it.

You should be grateful ... not hateful.

Maybe people with your shitty attitude is why he will want to develop on Windows ... he has much more patience than I.

Edited 2011-09-30 21:56 UTC

Reply Score: 0

RE: ..YES !!!!
by vitae on Fri 30th Sep 2011 23:37 UTC in reply to "..YES !!!!"
vitae Member since:
2006-02-20

"Oddly, de Icaza was more positive about Windows..."

I just thought it was funny. Working on Gnome all these years and has nothing good to say about it. But he likes Windows 8. Tantamount to saying he's wasted years of his life.

Reply Score: 3

Why no video editing
by Darkmage on Sat 1st Oct 2011 00:20 UTC
Darkmage
Member since:
2006-10-20

The reason for no video editor is pretty simple. Reinventing the wheel doesn't work for video. GStreamer is a horrible implementation of the idea. Without a solid pipelining framework any attempt at making a decent video editor is going to fail. You can't really write a monolithic video editing application, and to make it work you have to get right into the guts of the OS to make it right. The best video editing software around is all under Mac OSX. The reason is the Objective-C video apis that apple invested a ton of money making are such a solid foundation that it just snaps together easily and it works. The api is so robust that you can have realtime applications running on it without them crashing every five minutes. It's something which I haven't seen available even on windows. If linux wants a decent video editing program they should start with the GNUstep APIs and reimplement the Apple video apis.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Why no video editing
by tupp on Sat 1st Oct 2011 03:54 UTC in reply to "Why no video editing"
tupp Member since:
2006-11-12

No NLE on OSX nor Windows comes close to the robustness of Piranha: http://ifxsoftware.com/products/piranha

Piranha is as high-end as one can get. Guess what -- Piranha only runs on Linux!

Of course if you can't afford the USD$250,000 for Piranha and it's hardware console, you can buy it's little brother for USD$10,000 -- Ant: http://ifxsoftware.com/ant

Ant was handling 4k Red streams about a year before Avid and Final Cut Pro. Ant only runs on Linux.

A lot of high-end production software runs on Linux.

What was that about having to get into the guts of the OS and using Apple APIs??

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Why no video editing
by Darkmage on Sat 1st Oct 2011 04:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Why no video editing"
Darkmage Member since:
2006-10-20

...and you've just shot your own argument in the head, Pirhanna is a Commercial non open-source product. The entire API/Framework is made by one company. Ant is also another proprietary non opensource product.. how does this help Linux again? Call me when a normal linux user has access to these tools without forking out thousands of dollars? remember every mac user has FREE access to quartz composer built into their license for Mac OSX. There is nothing close to that on linux that will allow you to mix HD feeds in realtime, or allow layered effects. OSX is only $39.95 for a legit license you can run on most intel based PC hardware, and a mac will set you back less than $1000 for an i7 mac mini which will let you do the editing.

Edited 2011-10-01 04:53 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Why no video editing
by tupp on Sat 1st Oct 2011 05:40 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Why no video editing"
tupp Member since:
2006-11-12

Pirhanna is a Commercial non open-source product.

Nevertheless, it far out-classes any OSX/Windows NLE, and it only runs on Linux.

By the way, Piranha runs on RedHat, but I've heard of Ubuntu Piranha installations.

Ant can run on RedHat and Ubuntu, too. From the Ant page: "The Ant is a Linux Solution supporting most versions of RedHat and Fedora as well as Ubuntu, Debian and others."


Ant is also another proprietary non opensource product..

Nevertheless...


... how does this help Linux again?

It helps in showing that fanboys make a lot of baseless claims about the superiority of their proprietary OS (OS means "Operating System" -- not "application").


Call me when a normal linux user has access to these tools without forking out thousands of dollars? remember every mac user has FREE access to quartz composer built into their license for Mac OSX. There is nothing close to that on linux that will allow you to mix HD feeds in realtime

As I recall, Piranha in 2005 was capable of 100 simultaneous HD feeds on Linux. Call me when OSX has an NLE with that capability.

The cost is irrelevant -- the important thing is that Linux has already demonstrated superior capability in all aspects of production software. If a developer wanted to create an open source version of Piranha, there is nothing in Linux that is limiting him/her.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Why no video editing
by Soulbender on Sat 1st Oct 2011 09:14 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Why no video editing"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

and you've just shot your own argument in the head, Pirhanna is a Commercial non open-source product.


Being closed-source does not disqualify an application from being a great application.

Reply Score: 5

Huh
by twitterfire on Sat 1st Oct 2011 00:56 UTC
twitterfire
Member since:
2008-09-11

Even Linux runs on Windows, I almost forgot. Check out Colinux, you can run the Linux kernel and all the rest of
vaporware on top of windows.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by ddc_
by ddc_ on Sat 1st Oct 2011 06:18 UTC
ddc_
Member since:
2006-12-05

The phrase "Linux has only 10 great apps" implies several ideas:

1. There *MUST* be more then 10 desktop apps one uses.
2. All desktop Linux users are zealots.
3. Other platforms have more then 10 great desktop apps.

Arguable, at least.

And from my experience: I have switched nearly all my relatives from Windows to Linux with GNOME. Each of them was told that I will switch them back as soon as they ask for it. I'm waiting for several years now...

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by ddc_
by twitterfire on Sat 1st Oct 2011 12:43 UTC in reply to "Comment by ddc_"
twitterfire Member since:
2008-09-11



And from my experience: I have switched nearly all my relatives from Windows to Linux with GNOME.


What did you do? Tied them to a chair and point a gun to their heads? Told them that using Windows or Os X is a sin and RMS won't let'em in the foss/GPL paradise unless they won't repent their sins and accept Linus as their savior?

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by ddc_
by Soulbender on Sun 2nd Oct 2011 18:43 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by ddc_"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Tied them to a chair and point a gun to their heads? Told them that using Windows or Os X is a sin and RMS won't let'em in the foss/GPL paradise unless they won't repent their sins and accept Linus as their savior?


Because it's completely unthinkable that a person would want to switch away from Windows and OSX.

Reply Score: 3

Greatness in Left Field
by Peter Besenbruch on Sun 2nd Oct 2011 01:41 UTC
Peter Besenbruch
Member since:
2006-03-13

I thought I would toss in three applications.

I have been using Cartes du Ciel (Skycharts) by Patrick Chevalley since back in the late 90s, when it was Windows only. It's now multi-platform, and excellent for use in the field at the telescope.

A related program is Atlas Virtuel de la Lune (Virtual Moon Atlas). Originaly written for Windows by Christian Legrand, Patrick Chevalley has helped make it multi-platform.

The third program is not multi-platform. It's APT. It's why I stick with Debian and related distros. It keeps my systems up to date (including Skycharts and Virtual Moon). I started using it when RPM hell was at it's height. Aside from working, what makes it great? Simple, it inspired other (usually RPM based) distros to come up with something similar.

Reply Score: 2

I don't think so
by Alexander on Sun 2nd Oct 2011 17:28 UTC
Alexander
Member since:
2011-03-19

I don't agree with Miguel de Icaza. In my opinion Linux lacks in the area of professional applications like Photoshop. Not that you can't do a great deal of what you can do with Photoshop in GIMP but applications like Photoshop have simply become a standard of their own. On the other hand in the area of the Desktop I think that Linux is on par with what Windows has to offer. In my workspace i use Windows and i use several windows only applications there. But since i don't take my work at home i use my home pc purely as a desktop machine and there i need a browser, skype, torrent client, media player and mail clients. I use Firefox as a browser (which is multiplatform), Skype is multiplatform as well, but there also very good messengers for linux like Pidgin, a use OpenOffice and i'm fine with it and i actually prefer its interface to the one of the current MS Office suite, i use ktorrent at the moment but i'm also very happy with deluge, for media players i've used Rhythmbox, Banshee and Clementine and i think that each and everyone of them is better than WinAmp which seems to be the standard in Windows and for video i use MPlayer which is my favorite video player and i usually install it in Windows as well, VLC is very good as well, for mail client i currently use KMail but i'm very happy with Evolution and Thunderbird as well. I think that i just listed about 10 applications which first are desktop applications and second are very good at what they do. Note that the majority of these applications are multiplatform and i would use them in Windows as well if i had Windows installed.

Linux may be lacking in the area of professional applications and it definitely wouldn't hurt if some of the industry standard applications are ported to linux. But Desktop usage is one of the areas where it is on par with Windows. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a distribution like Ubuntu or OpenSuSe to a person who only uses his or her computer as a Desktop. Indeed I have helped a couple of my friends to switch from Windows to linux (at their request by the way) and there were almost no problems with the transition and they are happy Ubuntu users now.

Reply Score: 3

Examples
by jyper on Mon 3rd Oct 2011 10:30 UTC
jyper
Member since:
2011-10-03

Including cross platform(some might be very good not great, and am not saying they are better then any! windows only equivalent)

vlc
Firefox
file-roller/ark(extract or compress to several compression formats, file manager right click/mount support)
Nautilus/Dolphin(file managers include sftp support, tabs)
Thunderbird
Tomboy - simple notetaking
kate(editor)
okular(document viewer)
gwenview(image viewer with basic editing)
gimp
ktorrent
calibre(book reader/organizer/device syncer)
gnome-do/krunner(command run/launchers/do cool things)
MyPaint
kpatience- A nice collection of solitaire games(very good looking with hints, let the AI play for you/demo mode, and undo/redo)
Baobab (Disk Usage Analyzer)/KDirstat for when you are running low on space and need to know why
Inkscape
Cheese -photobooth like take webcam photo application
empathy/pidgin multi protocol instant messanger
Virutalbox
Blender

Reply Score: 1

Linux app not on windows
by TheGreatSudoku on Mon 3rd Oct 2011 12:32 UTC
TheGreatSudoku
Member since:
2009-07-28

Here's a Linux-only app that's groundbreaking, and is the best at what it does. This app is not available for OSX nor for Windows. It's called Compiz! Windows and Mac have been copying features from it, but are nowhere close to eye-candy desktop Compiz provides. 3rd party vendors have made very hack-ish looking clones of compiz for Windows. Stripped down in functionality, AND most charge money for their not-as-good-as-compiz knock-offs.

There are other decent Linux-only apps that are free (as in beer) and work well in Linux such GnoMenu and Plymouth. Again, 3rd party vendors tend to charge for software of this functionality in Windows. And the Windows "equivalents" look nowhere near as good nor integrated as their Linux counterparts.

All this without even touching on the superiority of System Update in most major Linux distros compared to the paltry functionality of Windows Update.

Reply Score: 1

Miguel.....Sigh
by segedunum on Mon 3rd Oct 2011 13:01 UTC
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

I'd forgotten all about him.

Mono was supposed to bring all of these great applications to Linux ten years ago.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Miguel.....Sigh
by twitterfire on Mon 3rd Oct 2011 14:11 UTC in reply to "Miguel.....Sigh"
twitterfire Member since:
2008-09-11

I'd forgotten all about him.

Mono was supposed to bring all of these great applications to Linux ten years ago.

Well, Mono doesn't support WPF and I guess it won't support WinRT. And some .NET desktop apps use some features which are Windows only.

It's cool though for writing portable winforms apps or deploying .NET apps on ios or android.

Reply Score: 2

Good apps for Linux
by allanregistos on Tue 4th Oct 2011 01:00 UTC
allanregistos
Member since:
2011-02-10

http://linuxmadeasy.blogspot.com/2011/09/so-as-usual-ive-no-wrote-i...

Yes, Linux is acceptable in daily to daily work of an engineer.

Reply Score: 1