Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 19th Sep 2005 12:30 UTC, submitted by kellym
Microsoft Microsoft' professional Developers Conference in Los Angeles last week was perhaps the company's most important event of the year, as officials try to sell developers on the value of creating new applications for the company's next generation of products. Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer talked with eWeek Senior Editor Peter Galli at the show about these upcoming products.
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Performance?
by polaris20 on Mon 19th Sep 2005 15:07 UTC
polaris20
Member since:
2005-07-06

requiring a 3Ghz cpu, 512MB, and 64MB GPU is performance?

XP runs just fine on a 600Mhz PIII with 256MB.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Performance?
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 19th Sep 2005 15:09 UTC in reply to "Performance?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

requiring a 3Ghz cpu, 512MB, and 64MB GPU is performance?

XP runs just fine on a 600Mhz PIII with 256MB.


For the xxxxxxxth time-- in Windows Vista, all the eye-candy can be turned off to turn it into an XP-like experience, which does NOT require the specs as you listed.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Performance?
by Anonymous on Mon 19th Sep 2005 15:20 UTC in reply to "RE: Performance?"
Anonymous Member since:
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"For the xxxxxxxth time-- in Windows Vista, all the eye-candy can be turned off to turn it into an XP-like experience, which does NOT require the specs as you listed."

And after you've turned off all the eye-candy and turned the OS into an XP-like experience, what are you left with? Windows XP? What were the cool features Microsoft was doing the past six years? I don't count high system requirements as one of them.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Performance?
by Anonymous on Mon 19th Sep 2005 19:28 UTC in reply to "RE: Performance?"
Anonymous Member since:
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And, after xxxxxxx times, will someone be so kind and
specify what are the requirements for Vista in "compatibility" mode ?

I've heard that they are not "so high". How "high" they are actualy ?

DG

Reply Score: 0

ankitmalik
Member since:
2005-07-06

what is the first / word that comes to mind when you read Steve Ballmer... for me its his monke/y like dance 'Developers, Developrs, ... ' !

On a serious note, Vista Requirements sound too high.,

Reply Score: 0

Vista = XP?
by Anonymous on Mon 19th Sep 2005 15:33 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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The post above beat me to it. If you turn off the hideous attempt to copy OS X, what is Vista? XP SP 3. MS has been working for years on this and still cant really get anything right. All the technology upgrades have been stripped from Vista/Longhorn and only the eye candy is left. Get rid of that and there is no reason to upgrade.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Vista = XP?
by CPUGuy on Mon 19th Sep 2005 20:15 UTC in reply to "Vista = XP?"
CPUGuy Member since:
2005-07-06

The only thing that's been "stripped out" is WinFS.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Vista = XP?
by haugland on Mon 19th Sep 2005 22:02 UTC in reply to "RE: Vista = XP?"
haugland Member since:
2005-07-07

What about Monad? Last I heard, they were pulling this too...

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Vista = XP?
by CPUGuy on Tue 20th Sep 2005 03:14 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Vista = XP?"
CPUGuy Member since:
2005-07-06

This was NEVER said.

Monad will be implemented with the next SQL server version initally, and will have a slow roll-out from there (so they can code their apps to take advantage of Monad).

Reply Score: 1

Leaving it far behind
by Bobmeister on Mon 19th Sep 2005 15:51 UTC
Bobmeister
Member since:
2005-07-06

I use Windows so little now, I have trouble figuring it out sometimes. NO joking...

I can't see the value either as the person who mentioned turning off the eye candy...what do you have? I suppose I would dabble with Vista if they sold if for about $20 because that would be borderline value to me...

Reply Score: 1

This Just In
by Anonymous on Mon 19th Sep 2005 15:56 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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"Consumers expect value for their money"

Reply Score: 2

evil
by Anonymous on Mon 19th Sep 2005 16:07 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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they are going to turn windows into a huge service security, etc... and charge it like a utility!!!

It's OBVIOUS.. Switch to OpenSolaris!

Reply Score: 0

Enough already
by sappyvcv on Mon 19th Sep 2005 16:19 UTC
sappyvcv
Member since:
2005-07-06

Please please please, STOP with the bullshit about Vista being XP SP3 without the eye-candy. It simply is NOT TRUE.

Here are some of the changes in Vista:
- New audio stack with per-app volume control
- New networking stack with better IPv6 support, more low-level access and controls for devs, and better security. This is huge for firewalls and such.
- New communications platform API
- New graphics platform that is more powerful than what's available in ANY other operating system right now
- New search capabilities and API that are system-wide instead of from one little application.
- New platform for making mini-apps that have a smaller footprint and are easier to deploy (Windows sidebar + gadgets)
- Many new goodies for developers like improved task scheduler API that allows event-based task scheduling
- LUA which offers a new layer of security
- Low level execution mode for apps like IE and Windows Mail which put the apps in a jail
- Better handling of application crashes (with IO cancellation) and application recovery
- Transactional file transfers - ability to rollback a change if it was interrupted before it was finished (such as if power goes out)
- Transactional registry, which with the above will make System Restore even more powerful (does linux have a system restore equivalent?)
- Auxiliary display support for devices that come with them (laptops, PDAs, etc)
- Improved performance in app loading, networking (tcp/ip offloading), ui (gpu offloading)

Repeat: SOME. There are more changes under the hood that no one will ever even know about (IO cancellation for one).

No Service Pack would offer anything close to these types of features. Saying it is XP SP3 is pure ignorance and zealotry.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Enough already
by IceCubed on Mon 19th Sep 2005 16:36 UTC in reply to "Enough already"
IceCubed Member since:
2005-07-01

so.... its Mac OS X Tiger only 2 years later?


interesting....

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Enough already
by sappyvcv on Mon 19th Sep 2005 16:58 UTC in reply to "RE: Enough already"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Please troll elsewhere. Thank you.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Enough already
by Anonymous on Tue 20th Sep 2005 09:37 UTC in reply to "Enough already"
Anonymous Member since:
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Hmmm....

- New audio stack with per-app volume control
The audio stack is being moved to user space. It didn't belong in kernel space anyway. But... moving it away may cause latency issues. We shall have to see if this is a 'Good Thing'. Servers don't need useless stuff like audio stacks in their kernel.. gamers and audio engineer may disagree.

- New networking stack with better IPv6 support
Yawn, welcome to the party. Because NIC's are becoming bottlenecks, more O/S's are having to address this anyway (e.g. Solaris Fire Engine). IPv6 support should have been better to start off with.

- New graphics platform that is more powerful than what's available in ANY other operating system right now
again... another yawn. My servers do not even require a graphics card. And what hardware is required to run this 'powerful' graphics platform... per chance a 'powerful' graphics card?

- New search capabilities....
About time... but again nothing that isn't already out there. Reiser4, spotlight and the BeOS fs was pretty neat.

- New platform for making mini-apps
0_o puuulease see Tiger. doesn't this also mean that I can get new forms of spam and vulnerability.


- Low level execution mode for apps
about time... best practise really... long overdue. But will it work as advertised or cause more problems. Just thinking here of the abortion that is zones in IE.

- Better handling of application crashes (with IO cancellation) and application recovery
Sounds great, any more details on IO cancellation?

- Transactional registry, which with the above will make System Restore even more powerful (does linux have a system restore equivalent?)
As far as I know, and unless its lurking around somewhere, Linux doesn't use a registry. We have no need for a system restore, because, in general, Linux doesn't make system wide changes during the installation of software. Call it a weird process, but it also means we don't need to reboot after most patches.


- Auxiliary display support for devices that come with them (laptops, PDAs, etc)
nice... but surely of limited use (if any?). Can you explain some more? does it only support Microsoft products?

- Improved performance in app loading, networking (tcp/ip offloading), ui (gpu offloading)
I should think so with a processor/gpu spec like that. But even if this were not the case, this would mean that they have altered the way in which an application is loaded, which has been done elsewhere to similar effect.

All in all, a great big 'so what', but as per usual, vista will, of course, be a big deal simply because it is microsoft. I still can't see the emperors clothes, be they new OR old.

Reply Score: 0

Microsoft is Intent to Deliver Value?
by Anonymous on Mon 19th Sep 2005 16:23 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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no shit? since when?

Reply Score: 0

But...
by Bobmeister on Mon 19th Sep 2005 16:24 UTC
Bobmeister
Member since:
2005-07-06

But...for most people...too little and too late. It's as GOOD as SP-3 without the eye candy...see? IT's a value thing and they seem to be losing it...

Transactional Registry? Geez...I've been fighting the registry ever since it came out...they should shoot it.

Reply Score: 1

RE: But...
by sappyvcv on Mon 19th Sep 2005 17:01 UTC in reply to "But..."
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

It may be "too late" for some people, but I don't see how it's "too little". Anyone who thinks its as valuable as XP SP3 is simply stubborn.

I suggest checking out the plethora of videos on channel9 about Vista. You'll be suprised how substantial this upgrade really is. Before the past month or two, it was looking like it was going to be a relatively minor upgade, aside from WinFX, Avalon and Indigo. But since then, many thigns have finally been revealed, especially at PDC.

Reply Score: 1

But you don't get it...
by Bobmeister on Mon 19th Sep 2005 17:09 UTC
Bobmeister
Member since:
2005-07-06

But you see...people don't care! They are having a lot more fun with other things now...no matter HOW much "cool stuff" they try to put in it. The thing is, MS has lost any "luster" it ever had and people are fed up. They might make the greatest thing since sliced bread at this point and people won't care. They have been ripped off by that outfit so much by now that they want to run away, stubborn or not...

I have a WinXP install somewhere...it runs fine. But it's boring. I know that there are people who love it and look forward to some of the cool new stuff in Vista, but MS has blown so much wind that people aren't listening and they won't from here on out...

Sorry, but it's just the way I see it...

Reply Score: 1

Ok
by sappyvcv on Mon 19th Sep 2005 17:19 UTC
sappyvcv
Member since:
2005-07-06

Yes, some people are fed up. Those people are moving to alternatives. But it's not as big of a number as you think.

Still, you missed my point. You were making claims of it being too little, and nothing more than XP SP3, when I clearly illustrated that is not the case. Then you go and say Microsoft can make the best OS ever and these people that are fed up still wouldn't care or use it? That's truly pathetic if they are that bitter.

You're blowing the number of people that are fed up way out of proportion. It's mostly geeks, which are no where near a majority. I'm a geek, and use Windows, and it's not anymore "boring" than any other OS. It's easy for me to use, gets the job done and works well for me. That's all I care about.

Vista I am excited about, as I can see the great potential for it as a better platform than anything Microsoft has previously offered. I am also excited for some of the new features, even the very minor changes, that will make things easier and more natural for me.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Ok
by Anonymous on Mon 19th Sep 2005 17:28 UTC in reply to "Ok"
Anonymous Member since:
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My biggest complaint is that in order for the consumer to get the most out of Vista, then that consumer has to shell out a good bit of money to upgrade his/her existing hardware. That comes from bloating. They could have done all of the "eye-candy" differently without requiring tons and tons of system resources. I think that is what has everyone aggravated about it. Jacking up system requirements to the extreme that Microsoft has done really isn't the path that they should have taken. My machine is a 2.08 GHZ AMD, 1 GB of RAM, and 128MB Radeon video card. I expect to be able to run the latest OS without having to invest any more money into my machine. And, if my understanding from reading the articles are correct (and I could very well be wrong), Vista would run sluggishly (if I don't have the "eye-candy" turned off) on my computer. That is what I find unacceptable. But, perhaps I'm mistaken by their requirements.

I will continue to dual boot between Windows and Linux (SuSE for me), and will probably upgrade to Vista. There are times when it's best for me to run Windows, and times when it's best to run Linux. However, the next time that I must put any larger investment in hardware, it will be to purchase a MacIntel computer.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Ok
by sappyvcv on Mon 19th Sep 2005 17:47 UTC in reply to "RE: Ok"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Actually, your hardware will run the full Vista experience fine.

Most consumers just buy new computers and upgrade their OS then.

I do agree that it kinda sucks that anyone who does buy Vista seperately may not be able to get the full experience with their existing hardware (keyword: may. in your case, you will). But at least they aren't forcing this, and are offering tiers for different levels of hardware.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Ok
by Anonymous on Mon 19th Sep 2005 18:26 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Ok"
Anonymous Member since:
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Thanks for correcting me re: hardware.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Ok
by sappyvcv on Mon 19th Sep 2005 18:32 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Ok"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

No problem. I have pretty much the exact same setup.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Ok
by raver31 on Mon 19th Sep 2005 18:47 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Ok"
raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

actually, no it is not good enough for the "full experience".
I have vista running on this

sempron 2200+
512mb ddr
nvidia fx5500 256
200GB scsi drive

now vista cannot display the "full experience" with any speed on this set-up, windows are slow to open/maximise/minimise and there is a delay when moving them around the screen etc

mp3 stutter a lot when I try to play them

hopefully... and I mean hopefully... this is caused by debugging code, and it will not happen in the final version.


BUT - stop getting that guys hopes built up!

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Ok
by sappyvcv on Mon 19th Sep 2005 18:59 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Ok"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

What the hell? Your setup is a lot worse than his and mine are, aside from the video card.

Yes, there is debugging code in Vista.

Yes, his and mine machine WILL be good enough for the full experience, and probably run better than XP. I'm getting no ones hopes up.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Ok
by jtrapp on Mon 19th Sep 2005 21:10 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Ok"
jtrapp Member since:
2005-07-06

now vista cannot display the "full experience" with any speed on this set-up, windows are slow to open/maximise/minimise and there is a delay when moving them around the screen etc

What do you expect from an early beta?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Ok
by Nathan O. on Mon 19th Sep 2005 21:59 UTC in reply to "Ok"
Nathan O. Member since:
2005-08-11

How many of the items on the above list will work on my 1GHz Duron that runs XP just fine? How does *that* version of Vista compare with XP? How many of those features are actually going to be backported to XP?

Reply Score: 1

OK...thanks
by Bobmeister on Mon 19th Sep 2005 17:32 UTC
Bobmeister
Member since:
2005-07-06

Yeah...you're right...I might have missed your point slightly. Look, I agree with you to the point that Vista might be way cool once it comes out. And I have NO IDEA the number of fed up people, however I see quite a few "regular" people who's computers I go to fix who seem pretty fed up. I usually tell them to move on to something else next time.

The article was about VALUE...and if MS can really ATTACH REAL VALUE to it and it is SEEN by the public, you are right, they'll bite. But there are "enough" out there that won't because of the issues we discussed, that it will nick the potential market share that MS thinks it deserves (which is everything).

I'm NOT a geek, but a user...moved to Linux because it was fun and made me more productive (I don't game). That was a personal choice and the right one for me. I found a LOT OF VALUE because of the returns. This will be the key for MS to succeed...and they will have a harder time than they did last round because of the capable competition. Lower price? They might have to consider that...

What do you think about these comments? Am I way off base?

Reply Score: 1

RE: OK...thanks
by sappyvcv on Mon 19th Sep 2005 17:52 UTC in reply to "OK...thanks"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

I'll agree about the nick in potential market share. MS made some big mistakes with security and have pissed off enough people that simply don't want to come back, even if Vista fixes the problems they had.

As far as value, I can't say I disagree there. The competition is much much better this time around, which decreases the value of any upgrade. The question is whether or not the scope of this upgrade will make up for that lost value in terms of security, usability, etc.

Relative to the OS market in general, the value of windows compared to before is definitely down. Relative to previous versions of Windows, I think the value is up. Would you agree to that?

Reply Score: 1

To anonymous 66.179....
by Bobmeister on Mon 19th Sep 2005 17:38 UTC
Bobmeister
Member since:
2005-07-06

Thanks...I'm kind of in the same boat. I also dual boot my LAST Windows machine with SUSE...spend 99 percent of my time in SUSE. The difference is that XP is just good enough for my purposes so that I won't see ANY value in updating to Vista...

In bantering with the other gentleman about the features, sure...some of that stuff sounds cool, but I'm looking more forward to the next generaly X Windowing system and KDE 4.0 than Vista...not because it might be better or worse, but because it just seems more fun....and it has VALUE (mostly free) for the customer.

VALUE is in the eye of the beholder, but if you spend $299 bucks...there better be a lot of bang...I just don't see it in Vista no matter WHAT the features...

Reply Score: 1

Guys don't care if blondes are dumb
by Anonymous on Mon 19th Sep 2005 18:26 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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so long as they look good

Just like joe "clueless" user and his desktop, he's gonna plonk down around a hundred bucks (enough to buy several families in various nations several trees, important livestock, etc. and clothe feed them for months if not longer) for extra eye candy and because he SEES eye candy he'll think it's better. He'll drive fingers into his nostrils until they tickle his brain or prostate and laugh at the KDE/Gnome desktops, thinking this new fancy blonde is so much better because of looks..

The Joe "clueless" users of the world feed monopolies and dictatorships. Those who fail to take (peaceful) action against evil beastly rulers and whip crackers are just as bad (if not worse) as joe user who willingly supports through stupidity.

Reply Score: 0

RE (2) OK...thanks
by Bobmeister on Mon 19th Sep 2005 18:36 UTC
Bobmeister
Member since:
2005-07-06

"Relative to the OS market in general, the value of windows compared to before is definitely down. Relative to previous versions of Windows, I think the value is up. Would you agree to that?"

Yes, very well put...I agree with the completely.

Reply Score: 1

Value
by polaris20 on Mon 19th Sep 2005 18:43 UTC
polaris20
Member since:
2005-07-06

Relative to the OS market in general, the value of windows compared to before is definitely down. Relative to previous versions of Windows, I think the value is up. Would you agree to that?

I would disagree, however it's difficult to tell without Vista actually being out.

Based on what I have read (and to confirm Thom's rude comment) there are different levels of hardware requirement; but if this is true, why not run at the most performance optimized level, instead of eye candy? And then what does it leave you? Yes, I read your posts, and I know there are under the hood improvements, but unfortunately developers aren't the majority of people buying OS's; consumers are.

And if they don't see a "visual" improvement, they won' buy it.

Which explains why there are so many people still running 98 and 2000.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Value
by sappyvcv on Mon 19th Sep 2005 19:00 UTC in reply to "Value"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

You said you disagree but then the rest of your post doesn't explain why.

The value of Vista compared to other versions of windows will be better, you didnt contradict that in your post.

The value of upgrading is a whole different story.

Reply Score: 1

maybe...
by Bobmeister on Mon 19th Sep 2005 18:56 UTC
Bobmeister
Member since:
2005-07-06

Maybe his hopes can get built up so much that it will be a disappointment! I'm sorry...I just can't be mean...it's not in my nature...

By the time Vista comes out, your current machine will be the equivalent of a Dell Dimension 350 is to us today. I just don't think that Vista is even targeted to a sempron machine...I have an Athlon XP that is really a sempron today and it probably can't run all of the stuff full tilt.

Reply Score: 1

Value, features, company morals....
by Anonymous on Mon 19th Sep 2005 19:06 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I think arguing about features and value amount to very little when people really don't like M$ based on moral reasons. M$ has a very capable OS, and feature for feature there are several open source alternatives that challenge all of M$ features and have some that M$ doesn't. However....

I use M$ only when I have no other choice because I can't stand the way M$ has gained it's user base through monopolistic practices. It's too bad that the regular user will never understand how much M$ has hurt this industry with the way it has done business. Even if M$ completely changed it's practices now, it's entire success is tainted because of its lousy half-baked value system.

Window and M$ will always be last in my book with or without added features and cool eye candy. Why can't we stand for something better than M$?

Reply Score: 0

sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Some of us find using the product we like the best more important than not using it on principle.

Reply Score: 1

My hopes?
by Anonymous on Mon 19th Sep 2005 19:08 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I wouldn't use the word "hope". Curiousity would be the better term.

Reply Score: 0

Ballmer != Gates ?
by Anonymous on Mon 19th Sep 2005 19:34 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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The rethorics of mr. Ballmer indicates that Microsoft will compete with quality and professionalism, and not by bribing politicians and breaking laws. He is no friend of Open Source, but he promises to compete in a fair manner.

If that comes true, then mr. Ballmer is different, and much more respectable person than Bill Gates. We shall see.....


DG

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
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"Some of us find using the product we like the best more important than not using it on principle."

Hmmm... Yes you are right. Many animals (oops I mean people) value personal desire more than principle. However, people who understand the principles behind M$ are more responsible to do the right thing than those who don't...at least in America. Who said, "with freedom comes responsibility?"

Reply Score: 0

sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm not going to make myself suffer using another product I don't like because some higher ups in the company have done some shady stuff. There are many many great people that work for Microsoft.

Reply Score: 1

Value
by StychoKiller on Tue 20th Sep 2005 05:37 UTC
StychoKiller
Member since:
2005-09-20

I'd give serious consideration to Vista only if MSoft
did the following:
1. Reduce the price to something reasonable ($50 say)
2. Get rid of the annoying behavior that requires
two or more clicks on two or more dialog boxes to
get something done (this is to me a lot of wasted
time -- after all, if you accidentally delete a file,
it just goes to the recycle bin, why do I need
programs that ask me several times: "Do you know what
you're doing?")

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous
Member since:
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I really do feel a deep and abiding sense of pity for Steve Ballmer these days. His company is going to die, and I have a feeling that on some level, he knows that.

Reply Score: 0