The Xbox-Linux team have got to work on trying to port Linux to the Xbox 360, in a project named 'Free 60'. The Free60 Project aims to port open source operating systems like GNU/Linux and Darwin to the Microsoft Xbox 360 gaming console. Here is some interesting documentation already from their website.
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That's an excellent point actually...I didn't realize the Mini's were that underpowered (just went to the Apple site). The 360 does pack quite a punch for that price eh?
Don't you know that when posting to the forum you're never to concede someone else point or reasoning, even if they seem to be right? It makes you look reasonable.
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Lets see how Linux runs on these triple-core powerpc...
If you read the excellent articles that John Siracusa wrote for Ars Technica, (http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360-1.ars and http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360-2.ars) you'll see that while a PPC Linux should run, it really needs to be optimized to take advantage the unique processor design to really fly.
TNeither the Xenon nor the Cell have an instruction window, which means that these two processor designs largely forget about instruction-level parallelism. Instead, instructions pass through the processor in the order in which they're fetched, with the twist that two adjacent, non-dependent instructions are executed in parallel where possible.
[snip]
Of course, you can't just eliminate the instruction window and replace it with more execution units without doing something to make up for the lost instruction window. The whole point of an instruction window is to complement an increased number of execution units by extracting more instruction-level parallelism. So in order to take advantage of a large number of execution units without an instruction window, you have to rethink how you organize the processor.
and
This brings me back to a statement I made at the beginning of this section, where I said that the PPE's deep pipeline was designed to pack a lot of streaming media performance into a small amount of die space. At that point, you were probably thinking that deeply pipelined processors like the Pentium 4 tend to have large die sizes, and if you were thinking so then you were right. However, a deep pipeline doesn't have to spell a large die size, if you throw out the instruction window along with most of the hardware that's intended to help the deep pipeline work well with branchy code.
and
Furthermore, the Xenon may be capable of running six threads at once, but the three types of branch-intensive code listed above are not as amenable to high levels of thread-level parallelization as graphics code. On the other hand, these types of code do benefit greatly from out-of-order execution, which Xenon lacks completely, a decent amount of execution core width, which Xenon also lacks; branch prediction hardware, which Xenon is probably short on; and large caches, which Xenon is definitely short on. The end result is a recipe for a console that provides developers with a wealth of graphics resources but that asks them to do more with less on the non-graphical side of gaming.
In short, yeah, it's got screamingly fast clock cycles and a triple core, but until you optimize the code for this processor, it's going to choke on several kinds of commonly performed operations.
(That said, I think it will take 3 months tops before we read a review of XBox360buntu here on OS News.)
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What is the fascination with trying to install Linux on every single darned piece of electronics in existence? (ok, slight exaggeration, maybe, but you get the idea) If you're going to waste the money on buying an XBox just to install Linux on it, you have *waaaaaaaay* too much money and spare time. It's a *videogame console* -- leave it alone 
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It must be your lack of knowledge for not realizing there are games ported to Linux such as DOOM 3, Quake 4 and Serious Sam 2.
http://www.linux-gamers.net/
http://www.linuxgames.com/
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Firstly, why linux? Because the source code is widely available, it is already designed to run on multiple architectures and the PowerPC arch is already catered for.
Second, why Xbox360? For $300/$400 you can get what is potentially a 9GHz (3x3.2GHz) computer.
Thirdly, why do it at all? Because people have said it cannot be done. Why bother climbing Everest?
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Microsoft is selling XBox360s at a loss. You're getting a hell of a lot of badass hardware for the price on the assumption that you'll spend a bunch more money buying games and accessories for it. But if you buy the xbox and install Linux on it and it runs well as a Linux box, then you've just bent Microsoft over a stump! What could be a better feeling than that?
Member since:2005-11-29
Getting a good hardware unit is what entices me... MS or not, I could care less.
But having a great gaming unit and a PC in 1 box that I can make MINE!!!
Now that excites me.
We will have to see what becomes of it.
Either way it will be a while before I can try it out due to it being sold out for months...
But by then more research should be hammered out and it will be great...
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But if you buy the xbox and install Linux on it and it runs well as a Linux box, then you've just bent Microsoft over a stump!
Only you'll have basically nothing you can do with it.
No, HW manufacturers ripped both MS and you.
[i]What could be a better feeling than that?[i]
Travelling, reading a book, altogether oblivious of game consoles. I haven't seen a match for Prince of Persia 2, Black Sword, Laser Squad or even Indiana Jones and Montezuma's Revenge yet. Don't forget Blood Money, Gauntlet & Golden Axe.
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"Microsoft is selling XBox360s at a loss. You're getting a hell of a lot of badass hardware for the price on the assumption that you'll spend a bunch more money buying games and accessories for it."
Except that much of the hardware costs are for graphics acceleration which aren't all that useful in Linux. Unless the server performance outdoes a similarly priced pc then its entirely useless.
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i think to some extent the xbox is not about turning a proffit. it is about making locked down appliences. like microsoft tried to do with the media center.
if everyone has a xbox plugged in to their tv, then you can get them to download films and music to it. this is a market that microsoft want to get back from apple.
for this to work they need to have their boxes locked tight. any xbox linux project to crack the protection helps them get to this state. its made even easier for microsoft as the xbox linux people will publish all the details of their work.
they might lose a bit of money on each box, but remeber they are probably getting components cheaper than retail price. the more xboxes they sell they cheaper they can make them, so it will become proffitable pretty soon.
Member since:2005-07-06
they might lose a bit of money on each box, but remeber they are probably getting components cheaper than retail price. the more xboxes they sell they cheaper they can make them, so it will become proffitable pretty soon.
"You're losing money on every unit sold? How do you plan to make money?"
"Volume."
:-)
Member since:2005-07-24
Basic economics Order of the Stick style:
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=135
:P
Member since:2005-07-06
Every console manufacturer (be it Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo,...) loses money with the console itself. No way can something like the Xbox360 or PS3 cost ~$400 and make revenue. Instead they rely on game licenses and % from game sales. You know, if you want to make a game for the Xbox you have to pay MS an X amount of money and give them X% of your sales. That explains why you don't see really shitty games on consoles.
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No, no, no! People keep pushing this myth on everyone and its simply not true. Loosing money on consoles is really something Sega started and MS adopted. Sony DOES NOT loose money on consoles! Yes it is true that they dump a considerable amount of money into R&D and manufacturing costs, but remember, this is how EVERY product, in EVERY industry is made. You spend money to make money. The difference is, Sony knows that they need to sell X PS2s to recover the costs of getting the product out to market, while MS looses money on every console from now until the end of the consoles life (as hardware costs go down, so to does the price of the XBox) since they don't manufacture the unit completely in house like sony does, and as such production cost are out of their control.
In fact, I believe the entire Xbox division has yet to even turn a profit...
Member since:2005-07-06
Umm, I'm sorry, but you contradict EVERY SINGLE Playstation earnings/expense report EVER put online.
Sony does lose money on every console. It is a standard strategy at this point.
Also, the Xbox division is part of the Home Entertainment department, which does have other products in it so it is hard to tell exactly what is going on with the Xbox alone. But Q2 2005 the division posted a proffit for the first time.
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2005-07-06
I mean, that's the whole goal of all the hoops they went through to protect this machine, correct? Game piracy?
Or is it simply to prevent folks from, in fact, loading up a generic OS on this machine and using it as cheap hardware?
How does this system thwart piracy? I take it you simply can't clone the game CD/DVD masters?
Finally, how do you think that master keys for this machine are secured?
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What is the fascination with trying to install Linux on every single darned piece of electronics in existence? (ok, slight exaggeration, maybe, but you get the idea) If you're going to waste the money on buying an XBox just to install Linux on it, you have *waaaaaaaay* too much money and spare time. It's a *videogame console* -- leave it alone
It has little to do with Linux and everything to do with the challenge. MS locks these boxes up pretty tight, so the ability to install Linux without modding it is like a very complex puzzle. For some, the thrill of finding a means to install Linux is the most exciting game you can play on it.
If MS didn't secure the box at all, so that all you had to do was stick a Linux install CD in it, I doubt there would be nearly the amount of excitement of installing Linux on it.
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"It has little to do with Linux and everything to do with the challenge. MS locks these boxes up pretty tight, so the ability to install Linux without modding it is like a very complex puzzle. For some, the thrill of finding a means to install Linux is the most exciting game you can play on it. "
That falls under the "cheap thrill" catagory. A brief burst of adrenaline and then it sits in the back of some closet when the thrill wears off. Fun but expensive in the long run.
"If MS didn't secure the box at all, so that all you had to do was stick a Linux install CD in it, I doubt there would be nearly the amount of excitement of installing Linux on it."
There's always the "stickin it to the man" crowd.
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Just as I thought. This has nothing to do with saving the world, and everything to do with peoples ego.
Idiot.
Is it really that hard to understand that people might actually do something BECAUSE IT'S DIFFICULT, not because they have some hidden agenda, or hatred or Microsoft, or ego issues, or are compensating for something else, or jealousy, or whatever.
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"Is it really that hard to understand that people might actually do something BECAUSE IT'S DIFFICULT, not because they have some hidden agenda, or hatred or Microsoft, or ego issues, or are compensating for something else, or jealousy, or whatever."
Hmmm...things that are difficult:
Finding a cure for cancer.
Creating an amateur space probe to ride piggy back on a rocket.
Building a mobile robot that can navigate the real world.
Designing artificial organs.
Some might be doing it due to the difficulty, but I bet there are others doing it for reasons that aren't so noble. The thing about "cracking the xBox" verses what's on my list is that the latter will be much more satisfying and longer-lasting in everyone's minds than the former.
Member since:2005-07-06
Well then. Get started and let us know how you get on with those noble causes.
Since you obviously don't like the subject matter, why are you a)reading this thread, and b)feel the need to criticise those that may have an interest in it?
I think the original response aimed at you was quite apt and I concur. Idiot.
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I bought an xbox to run linux on it. But because you didn't have to choose between linux and a normal xbox, I ended up buying games and accessories. Sure, they lost money on the hardware, but they made it back on the extras, probably a few times over.
Now I have guilt. Consequently I would only buy an Xbox 360 if the only way to run Linux on it was to make it unusable as a normal Xbox360. (And it made a good HD playback capable MythTV frontend.) Of course, with Sony's recent antics I don't think I'll be buying a PS3 either.
Where does that leave a would-be gamer? Playing nethack and freeciv I guess! (There are worse fates...)
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Of course, with Sony's recent antics I don't think I'll be buying a PS3 either.
And what would that be? Putting Linux on the Playstation 3 by default, or have you just bought into the Slashdot hype that likes to point fingers at anyone other than themselves, before getting tired and moving on to the next victim? Does it make you feel better to divide the world into such black and white terms?
Don't forget the fact Sony have been running an internal dialog since before the DRM issues got trolled around the internet, or the fact they swiftly moved to recall the product when a fault introduced by a third party was discovered. Sony made a mistake and dealt with it. Would you have reacted so well? Doubt it.
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"or the fact they swiftly moved to recall the product when a fault introduced by a third party was discovered. Sony made a mistake and dealt with it. "
Funny... They claimed nothing was wrong. To paraphrase: "Most people have no idea what a rootkit is so why should they care?" It APPEARED that their "swift recall" only came about AFTER the lawsuits began to pour in. Sony made a mistake - fine. Their actions thus far show that the only thing they've learned about it is to get more creative the next time instead of not screwing over their customers again.
I was all set to go with a PS3 until they pulled that stunt. Too bad. I also liked the Sony plasma TVs. Guess what. OTHER manufacturers make a similar, if not better, product and DON'T have a history of trying to Root my computer, so they can have my 5000$.
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2005-07-08
The money sure is loose around here! 
I'm sure they are not loosing (loosening?) or even tighting (tightening) the money I'm sure they are losing money though. Since when did the definitions for loose and lose get switched? Is the past tense then loost? =p
Edited 2005-11-29 05:12
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Is it really that hard to understand that people might actually do something BECAUSE IT'S DIFFICULT, not because they have some hidden agenda, or hatred or Microsoft, or ego issues, or are compensating for something else, or jealousy, or whatever.
You forgot to add that it may be because they're growing up and might get a thrill out of impressing their friends before reality sinks in, or they're a bitter has-been, or some other nonsense. The world is grey, and people like to paint themselves in rosy colours while not giving other people the benefit of the doubt. Thank you for illuminating my point so adequately.
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2005-07-10
1. You want both a game console and a computer that is low cost. Well dual booting the system offers both.
2. To run a low cost render farm of XBOX 360.
3. You want to have the hardware you purchased in your control not Microsoft's.
4. You believe in making more of your hardware than just the sum of it's components.
Out of the 4 reasons my main interest in installing Linux on the XBOX 360 is a low cost render farm. I may keep one as a game console but the rest would strictly be used for a render farm.
Edited 2005-11-29 06:26
Member since:2005-07-20
My over whelming interest in an Xbox360 is for an encoding platform that can encode a full length dvd in under 20 minutes to a high quality mpeg4 that will still look good on my friend 133" projection screen. Then, when high def video's come out, with the extra time taken to optimize the encoders, I want it still to only take 20 minutes.
Beyond that, I don't care if it runs linux, windows or bsd. I might want firefox, smb, rdesktop & vnc. But that's it. With the speed of the machine, even if unoptimized, web browsing should be plenty fast enough.
I just bought the xbox as a media center so I can take my media pc and turn it into my new server. The xbox works great for that purpose, but it sure would be nice to rip my dvd's using it instead of my desktop or one of my slower servers.
Member since:2005-07-06
"You're burning with passion to insinuate yourself onto the X-Box 360 platform ...blah blah blah"
What are you on about? My comment wasn't stating a position either for or against this type of thing so you're assuming a lot. But then again, we're pretty much used to that kind of behaviour from anonymous trolls. Get a clue.
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2005-10-15
So hacking the xbox should not be done becus there are more noble things to do?
how about playing xbox games?
how about wasting time posting on internet forums?
some things are done on free time for fun and relaxing they keep us from going insane.
if you want to dedicate your free time to finding a cure from cancer be my guest i wouldnt even have a clue about where to start the research.
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"And that's coming from, if you'll excuse the modesty, from someone who was acknowledged in the national press as having created a work of genius before they were out of college."
So, you're who exactly? Trying to boost your argument with a list of accomplishements doesn't really go well with anonymous posting.
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Trying to boost your argument with a list of accomplishments doesn't really go well with anonymous posting.
You can fork whatever line of argument you want, but it doesn't mean I'm going to buy into it. The fact of the matter is the issues relating to free versus proprietary products, and the ethics of the competing parties was dodged. In any case, if you're not going to run with that one, you're not the intended audience. I'm more interested in seeing how the targets of Linux proponents respond, and that doesn't have to be echoed in this discussion forum. I'm interested in seeing how issues of IP usage and business ethics develop in the field.
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2005-10-13
Well there is no noble cause to make people climb Mount Everest, but people still do it. Why? Not for the view, because you can get pictures of that. They do it because it is a challenge and it interests them.
You can talk all you want to about how they should be doing something better with their time, but the fact is that what they want to do is install Linux on the 360. And since they've bought the console to do what they want to it, who are you to tell them that they shouldn't? It's not like playing games on it is anything noteworthy.
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Settle down No one's taking your toys away. Run Linux all you want but don't expect any ticker-tape parade for doing so. And yes running games on a CONSOLE is noteworthy. Not because of the "running games" part, but the overall environment that people will be commenting on for years. The gaming press will not be devoting lots of ink (if any) on the "running of linux on an xbox" news, but the "hey did you hear that so and so game is coming out on the xbox?" or "look at these new accessories". Plus I find the "do what we want with our hardware, irrespective of MS" part a bit humerous, because one can buy another console that doesn't have any "control issues", and still satisfies the geeky urge to "run linux on". Guess you all really want to "stick it to the MS man". That's going to be some expensive stick.
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the difficulty alone would make an interesting exercise for those so inclined. It's not an anti-microsoft thing, it's a pro microsoft thing, that there are those interesting in their hardware.
Someone mentioned the Sony DRM cd fiasco, but the fiasco is not a Sony one, it is Sony BMG one. Sony BMG is not Sony. That's why it is called Sony BMG. I doubt the DRM decision was made by Japanese---most likely made by US citizens in the USA, probably emplyed by Sony BMG, NY NY USA and not Sony Corporation, Tokyo JP. The Xbox 360, OTOH, is a true Microsoft product. The PS3 is not a Sony BMG product. If you bought a ton of Sony BMG cd's and no PS3's, I am sure the executives of Sony BMG would be quite happy.
To not buy a PS3 because of Sony BMG makes little sense; the appropriate reaction, if any, is to exercise caution on Sony BMG CD's.
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2005-07-06
- The flash is encrypted with a per-box key
- The key is stored inside the CPU
- The boot ROM is stored inside the CPU
- Also inside the CPU is a hypervisor that verifies the running state of the kernel, making sure there is no modification (RAM checksums), else the Xbox360 panics and blows up!
They're really out to prevent mod-chips this time around. Moving the boot ROM inside the CPU and protecting it with a key also inside the CPU pretty much kills nearly all mod-chips. Most mod-chips intercept instruction fetches from the boot ROM and replace the original code with their own. With the boot ROM inside the CPU, you can't intercept those instruction fetches.
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"The PS3 is not a Sony BMG product. If you bought a ton of Sony BMG cd's and no PS3's, I am sure the executives of Sony BMG would be quite happy.
To not buy a PS3 because of Sony BMG makes little sense; the appropriate reaction, if any, is to exercise caution on Sony BMG CD's."
According to Steve Wildstrom, Tech & You columnist:
"Earlier this year, Sony Entertainmnet, a division of Sony Corp., spun off its music division and created Sony BMG as a 50-50 joint venture with Bertelsmann AG. Sony Corp. (which owns Sony Electronics, maker of computers, cameras, etc.) has no operational control of Sony BMG though, obviously as a half owner, it bears some responsibility for its activities."
Sorry, I'm inclined to agree. Sony is in the name. The media reports it as Sony most of the time, NOT Sony BMG. It is a Sony product/company bearing the Sony parent company name. It has direct bearing on the Sony brand and as such, the parent company Sony has direct responsibility. If they condone this kind of action, I see no reason why I should give them my cash in exchange for any of their products.
