Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 30th Nov 2005 22:50 UTC
Gnome GNOME 2.12.2 has been released, as the second maintenance release in the 2.12 series. Download the tarballs of the platform, desktop and bindings.
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But how do I get it?
by Anonymous on Wed 30th Nov 2005 23:10 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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How do I get it? I'm running Ubuntu, which only provides security fixes, so unless I switch to the 'development' repository (which pulls in loads of other stuff and isn't properly supported) I'm stuck. I've looked into other distros and the situation is the same.

So basically I've got to compile the whole lot from source, or start using a mid-development distro to get it. Why can't I just double-click a file or two like in so many other OSes?

This is really why Linux needs some form of API, ABI and platform stability. This new GNOME release fixes a stack of bugs and yet hardly any Linux users can get it without going through a messy tangle of operations...

Reply Score: 1

RE: But how do I get it?
by Eugenia on Wed 30th Nov 2005 23:17 UTC in reply to "But how do I get it?"
Eugenia Member since:
2005-06-28

>Why can't I just double-click a file or two like in so many other OSes?

Because Gnome is a *platform*, not an "application". By being a platform, it means that it has to integrate itself on each different distribution or Unix or X server, mostly the same way, but not always the same. Sometimes extra patches or changes have to be made for some of these distros or OSes. And this is why when it comes to platforms, you need to WAIT for your distro/OS to upgrade.

If you can't wait, just compile it youself and lose the "warranty". Or, switch to a development version of your distro. Or, switch to a distro that are "faster" to provide updates, like the Arch Linux updates earlier today.

Would it be cool if there was an API/ABI compatiblity as you wish? Sure it would be. But it is not, and it ain't gonna happen. "Choice" is at the same time a gift and a curse in the Linux world.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: But how do I get it?
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 00:09 UTC in reply to "RE: But how do I get it?"
Anonymous Member since:
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Is there a gnu/linux distro that does clean seperation between base os and third party applications and platforms.

I'm using freebsd and have gnome 2.12.2 running as of this morning. The clean seperation of os and ports is what keeps me here. It's nice to have the latest and greatest in the application world such as rhythmbox 9.2, firefox 1.5, gnome 2.12.1 while maintaing a stable os.

Just courious

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: But how do I get it?
by Eugenia on Thu 1st Dec 2005 00:12 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: But how do I get it?"
Eugenia Member since:
2005-06-28

Yes, Arch Linux does that. The base tree is called... "-base". Then, if you want, you can add -Current or -Extra, but that's up to the user only.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: But how do I get it?
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 00:20 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: But how do I get it?"
Anonymous Member since:
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Sweet, I'll have to check that out.
Thank you

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: But how do I get it?
by butters on Thu 1st Dec 2005 00:51 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: But how do I get it?"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

Arch isn't the only Linux distribution that provides (what I interpret as your definition of) a clean separation between base OS and platform. Most will give you a choice of desktop platforms, and some boot for the first time in text-mode. Slackware and Rubix divide their packages into broad categories separating the base from the rest. Gentoo divides packages into a sort of two-tiered organization and provides a base package group. Even the big RPM distributions make it easy to install just a base operating system.

However, as a FreeBSD user, I would suggest you check out Arch. It is definitely the most FreeBSD-like of the Linux distributions.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: But how do I get it?
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 02:29 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: But how do I get it?"
Anonymous Member since:
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Perhaps I should explain more. Freebsd is considered the os. It is completly seperate from anything third party. You can run the same OS with out upgrades while upgrading third party packages (ports) daily. This way I get the latest version's of the software I use. My base OS does not change at all. Ports also all go in /usr/local/* while the base os goes in the normal locations.

Gentoo is I remember correctly sorta has the seperation I'm talking about. But emerge world still upgrades everthing, even base. And they still treat everthing like a whole instead of seperating out os/non os

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: But how do I get it?
by bretthoerner on Thu 1st Dec 2005 02:59 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: But how do I get it?"
bretthoerner Member since:
2005-06-29

>Gentoo is I remember correctly sorta has the seperation
>I'm talking about. But emerge world still upgrades
>everthing, even base. And they still treat everthing
>like a whole instead of seperating out os/non os

The only thing in Portage that is "the OS" would be kernel source packages. If you do a blind emerge update (like, emerge -uD world), which you should never do... it would in fact automatically pull down a new kernel source tree. But, this is just a source tree (another kernel in your /usr/src... it doesn't even remove the old one, you do that by hand). Source does nothing, you'd have to go compile / copy the kernel over by hand to do any actual OS changing.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: But how do I get it?
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:26 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: But how do I get it?"
Anonymous Member since:
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my problem with freebsd (and gentoo for that matter) is that i dont like to sit and wait an hour to install totem with xine because there's no binary available to install for it.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: But how do I get it?
by Phil on Thu 1st Dec 2005 14:07 UTC in reply to "RE: But how do I get it?"
Phil Member since:
2005-07-06

There are times it would be nice to be able to mod a staff members post up!

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: But how do I get it?
by dsmogor on Thu 1st Dec 2005 14:24 UTC in reply to "RE: But how do I get it?"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

I guess it's became a marketing issue.
The just released gnome packages actually are not products but just components that are are more and more integral part of bigger systems.
As such they shouldn't be advertised in separation because most people cannot easily reach them directly and a lot of precious excitement that could otherwise be directed to distros is wasted.

Unfortunately people are used to treat project milestone announcements on the same level as product announcements in commercial world.

Reply Score: 0

RE: But how do I get it?
by butters on Thu 1st Dec 2005 00:35 UTC in reply to "But how do I get it?"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

Not to mention that GNOME supports non-Linux platforms...

But in any case, adding an APT repository doesn't mean you need to accept any and all package upgrades offered by the new repo. Just grab what you need.

I haven't used GARNOME or jhbuild in a while, but 2 years ago it wasn't that difficult, and I imagine it hasn't gotten any harder.

This doesn't have anything to do will API/ABI/platform stability. If anything, you can't get today's version of GNOME on Ubuntu *because* of platform stability concerns. Distributors might need some time for building, testing, integrating, etc. Remember, the GNOME project releases source code, not binary packages for every distribution known to man. If you have to build it from source, then so does your distributor.

The only reason why "Linux" would need API or ABI stability is to accomodate binary, closed-source kernel modules. There is no end to the reasons why that is a bad idea.

This isn't even really about choice, as Eugenia suggests. It's about availability. GNOME 2.12.2 is available. The code is on the FTP servers. That's how you get it. If you wait a couple days, maybe a couple weeks, someone will actually build the code for you, free of charge, possibly even out of the kindness of their heart alone.

So cut the entitlement crap and be thankful that we have free access to a desktop platform that could surely be assessed at untold millions of dollars in market capitalization.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: But how do I get it?
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 09:38 UTC in reply to "RE: But how do I get it?"
Anonymous Member since:
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No, if you switch to a 'development' repository and try to pull in just Gnome, it turns into a massive sprawl of invasive system upgrades, right down to GCC being upgraded. Lots and lots of testing versions all around.

Someone will build the code for me? Why should users have to wait for some random joe to build it for their specific distro? With API and ABI consistency, the GNOME project would be able to produce generic binaries that ran on all distros, so that EVERYONE could enjoy the GNOME bugfixes.

It's nothing to do with 'kernel modules'. It's about giving people access to software in a clean, elegant and consistent way -- like so many other OSes have sorted out over the years.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: But how do I get it?
by FooBarWidget on Thu 1st Dec 2005 09:49 UTC in reply to "RE: But how do I get it?"
FooBarWidget Member since:
2005-11-11

"The only reason why "Linux" would need API or ABI stability is to accomodate binary, closed-source kernel modules."

Uhm, no. No no no no no. Have you never heard of third party OPEN SOURCE kernel modules? Take for example FUSE. It's a royal pain in the *** to have to recompile it every time I upgrade my kernel. Or sysprof, the system-wide profiler. I shouldn't have to recompile it every time I upgrade my kernel. Having a stable kernel API and ABI would hugely benefit the open source kernel modules.

Reply Score: 1

RE: But how do I get it?
by bytecoder on Thu 1st Dec 2005 00:58 UTC in reply to "But how do I get it?"
bytecoder Member since:
2005-11-27

What you're talking about is one of the (many) problems with repository-based package managers. You could try slackware, which has a user-managed package system, where you get to decide what to upgrade when. I have a few scripts made up to manage/create packages from nautilus, which I can put online if you'd like.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: But how do I get it?
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 01:26 UTC in reply to "RE: But how do I get it?"
Anonymous Member since:
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what exactly do you mean by "user-managed package system"? i know about rpm and tarballs etc, but i'm wondering iof there's is something that i'm not knowing about slackwear by your use of the term.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: But how do I get it?
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 01:39 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: But how do I get it?"
Anonymous Member since:
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Presumeably he means that you, the user, are the one in control, rather than the package management-system, wrt what packages and what dependencies get installed or upgraded.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: But how do I get it?
by jonas on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:04 UTC in reply to "RE: But how do I get it?"
jonas Member since:
2005-07-08

What you're talking about is one of the (many) problems with repository-based package managers. You could try slackware, which has a user-managed package system, where you get to decide what to upgrade when. I have a few scripts made up to manage/create packages from nautilus, which I can put online if you'd like.

You have to write scripts to manage your packages, whereas repository-based package manager users don't. I have not yet met a repository-based package manager that did not allow you to use it (via some force flags) as you would "installpkg".

Slackware guys pound in over and over that they like having control over their system. For me, I like having a system I understand. I understand the slackware package management system thoroughly, and most of its users do.

A lot of those who understand it start to augment it with scripts. When i ran slackware (yes, i don't much anymore) i was constantly cooking up scripts and programs of various complexity to augment my package management. In the end i decided to give some other distros a whirl, and really spend some time with their package management (at least 6 months), and found a comfortable niche elsewhere.

But the control slackware users talk about, its mostly "understanding". The slackware package tools will almost never do something that isn't easily explainable. If you understand a package management system thoroughly, though, you can use pretty much all of them to your liking.

Reply Score: 0

RE: But how do I get it?
by jsight on Thu 1st Dec 2005 04:13 UTC in reply to "But how do I get it?"
jsight Member since:
2005-07-06

As others have pointed out, Gnome really is a core part of the platform.

Can you imagine upgrading Explorer on Windows without a set of official patches from Microsoft?

This situation is (somewhat) similar. The vendor provides the Gnome with their customizations, and therefore they need to stabilize and provide the updates.

Good distributions are a little slow at doing this by design (eg, Gentoo still doesn't have 2.12 in stable), in part because their 2.12.1 probably already has at least some patches from the 2.12.2 branch.

Reply Score: 0

RE: But how do I get it?
by Soulbender on Thu 1st Dec 2005 11:20 UTC in reply to "But how do I get it?"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"This is really why Linux needs some form of API, ABI and platform stability. "

No, *you* need to wait a little bit so that your distro can have a chance to integrate it.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: But how do I get it?
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 11:42 UTC in reply to "RE: But how do I get it?"
Anonymous Member since:
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A little bit? As in six months to a year, depending on when the next _stable_ distro release is out?

If this was the other way round, and normal users had to wait six months on Windows for bugfixed free software releases, whereas Linux users could just double-click stuff as it arrives, you'd be mocking Microsoft 'til the cows come home.

Double standards indeed. Most other OSes have sorted this out, Linux hasn't, so stop trying to squirm out of it...

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: But how do I get it?
by charlieg on Thu 1st Dec 2005 16:24 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: But how do I get it?"
charlieg Member since:
2005-07-25

"If this was the other way round, and normal users had to wait six months on Windows for bugfixed free software releases, whereas Linux users could just double-click stuff as it arrives, you'd be mocking Microsoft 'til the cows come home."

Woah you are so far off the truth.

Currently Windows users have to wait closer to 6 years for major releases... well, I guess the service packs make it out once every couple of years.

Also, Gnome do maintainence releases (2.12.2 has been released already) every month or two.

Security patches are available instantly, since the development is open. A good distro has them integrated within a few hours at the most.

In the future, perhaps you should do some research before tirading about open source release processes.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: But how do I get it?
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 16:45 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: But how do I get it?"
Anonymous Member since:
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"Currently Windows users have to wait closer to 6 years for major releases... well, I guess the service packs make it out once every couple of years."

Er, I said bugfixed free software releases. Please read correctly before writing such a comment.

And it's true. When a new free app comes out on Windows, users can just double-click and install.

With Linux, you have to wait six months (or a year) for it to be in your next stable distro release, or risk some 'development' repository, or scour the net for binaries that may not work with your specific distro, or compile the app (and all its dependencies) from source. A few projects have, wisely, adopted Autopackage to mitigate that, but for the most part it's a horrible tangle.

I'd suggest looking around the net to see users struggling to get new software releases installed, and then tell me it's not a hindrance to more widespread Linux desktop adoption...

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: But how do I get it?
by segedunum on Thu 1st Dec 2005 16:51 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: But how do I get it?"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Er, I said bugfixed free software releases.

Yer? Many bugfixes come about in the next version of Microsoft software. Windows Updates are only designed for security patches, apart from serious functionality problems. You may get a service pack if you're lucky, but you have to wait for that or you may not get it at all.

I'd suggest looking around the net to see users struggling to get new software releases installed, and then tell me it's not a hindrance to more widespread Linux desktop adoption...

I have to agree there - it is a problem. There are some things package repositories are good at, especially for providing update to your distribution, but you simply can't install the wide variety of software there is out there through a package repository. Specific repositories also lock you into a particular distribution, or can be used to force you to upgrade when support is removed which doesn't sit well with me or others.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: But how do I get it?
by Anonymous on Mon 5th Dec 2005 08:57 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: But how do I get it?"
Anonymous Member since:
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I'd suggest looking around the net to see users struggling to get new software releases installed, and then tell me it's not a hindrance to more widespread Linux desktop adoption...


Yes! I agree with you..!. Even if they manged to install, then they dont know how to run the program after that...( where to look and what is the file name to run!!..). Some people say that is lack of Linux knowldege.. Desktop user has to be a programmer?

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: But how do I get it?
by cr8dle2grave on Thu 1st Dec 2005 19:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: But how do I get it?"
cr8dle2grave Member since:
2005-07-11

I presume you are same anonymous who's been hammering away on this same issue in 3 or 4 articles over the last few days? If so, I really can't imagine what it is you hope to accomplish. It's been explained to you why things are the way they are and, further, why they are highly unlikely change anytime in the near future. If you can't reconcile yourself to that, then Linux quite obviously isn't the best choice for you. By all means enjoy your Win and/or Mac computing experience, but please understand there are some of us who have found that the Linux way(s) of managing software packages better suits our needs. Not perfect, and certainly not without considerable room for improvement, but, on the whole, far better suited to our purposes.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: But how do I get it?
by Soulbender on Fri 2nd Dec 2005 04:20 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: But how do I get it?"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"A little bit? As in six months to a year, depending on when the next _stable_ distro release is out? "
Guess you should use a different distro then?

"If this was the other way round, and normal users had to wait six months on Windows for bugfixed free software releases, whereas Linux users could just double-click stuff as it arrives, you'd be mocking Microsoft 'til the cows come home. "

That's a bull comparison. I seem to have forgot, did MS give Windows95 users free upgrades to Windows98?
Does MS release major updates more often than 6 months?

Why this post is modded up is beyond me.

Reply Score: 1

v Gnome sucks
by Joe User on Wed 30th Nov 2005 23:31 UTC
v RE: Gnome sucks
by Anonymous on Wed 30th Nov 2005 23:36 UTC in reply to "Gnome sucks"
Sorry...
by Anonymous on Wed 30th Nov 2005 23:37 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Sorry. Shouldn't have sad that. I like Gnome, but I like KDE too. They both have their positive and negative sides.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
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is it possible to extract a password protected RAR archive with right mouse click in Nautilus (Nautilus use File-Roller for extracting)?

It would be nice if Gnome/Nautilus/File-Roller could detect this file type (password protected rar file) and show me a password dialog.

With Gnome 2.12.1, this was not possible ;)

Thanks for answers ;)

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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it is possible on any gnome. you just need 2 packages: rar and unrar.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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> it is possible on any gnome. you just need 2 packages: rar and unrar

P A S S W O R D P R O T E C T E D

unRARing just works fine...

Reply Score: 0

butters Member since:
2005-07-08

On a related note, while Nautilus/Roller extracts a broad assortment of archive formats, the right-click->create archive feature offers no selection of formats, defaulting to tar.gz. It would be nice if they added one more dropdown menu to that dialog for creating zip or tar.bz2 archives. I think I'll go file that request...

Reply Score: 1

thebluesgnr Member since:
2005-11-14

If you just change the file extension to .tar.bz2 file-roller will create a .tar.bz2 archive.

Reply Score: 0

bytecoder Member since:
2005-11-27

It defaults to zip for dropline gnome, at least. It will automatically use the right format if you change the extension.

Reply Score: 0

new features?
by brother bloat on Thu 1st Dec 2005 00:34 UTC
brother bloat
Member since:
2005-07-06

can someone direct me to a changelog and/or a list of new features?

thanks!

Reply Score: 0

RE: new features?
by butters on Thu 1st Dec 2005 00:54 UTC in reply to "new features?"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

Follow the link (released). A fairly detailed changelog is included with the announcement. Sorry for outing you as a non-article-reader.

Reply Score: 0

Searching and Filtering in Nautilus
by Mystilleef on Thu 1st Dec 2005 01:21 UTC
Mystilleef
Member since:
2005-06-29

I would like to see nautilus implement a nice search and filter interface. I'd like to be able to search within folders and also filter files within folders based their types. I'm surprised the Nautilus crew don't find these functions crucial for a file manager.

Reply Score: 1

carbon-12 Member since:
2005-07-06

Well theres already filtering. For example, if I wanted to select all the PNGs from a folder I can go:

[Edit] -> [Select Pattern] -> *.png

But that only works if all the images have extensions. It would nice to have filtering based on MIME type.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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"It would nice to have filtering based on MIME type."

Agreed.

Reply Score: 0

bytecoder Member since:
2005-11-27

There's already a search tool called gnome-search-tool, and there should be a script floating around on the net that runs it from nautilus (it's just a 2-line shell script). You can select files matching a pattern by going to edit->select pattern.

Reply Score: 0

Switcher
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 03:50 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Last night I blew away by Gentoo/KDE install in favour of Ubuntu (mainly because of great Gnome integration).. So now, at least in the short term I am happy. But, I really have to think, when are we going to see the next big step for Gnome as a platform? At least with KDE, the porting effort to QT4 has got things rolling - but, will my beloved Gnome cope against KDE4, Aqua, (And Vista?) et al!?

Kudos to the Gnome team for another fine release!

Reply Score: 0

RE: Switcher
by theGrump on Thu 1st Dec 2005 05:31 UTC in reply to "Switcher"
theGrump Member since:
2005-11-11

what is it that you want??? its only the desktop environment and some utilities. i'm not quite sure what all the excitement is about, and i certainly don't know why anyone would mess with an existing stable 2.12 installation (like ubuntu's) to get and compile a point release that i am sure is visually INDISTINGUISHABLE from what was there before.

some people just like to download and compile.

Reply Score: 0

RE: But how do I get it?
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 07:18 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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This is really why Linux needs some form of API, ABI and platform stability. This new GNOME release fixes a stack of bugs and yet hardly any Linux users can get it without going through a messy tangle of operations...

On FreeBSD only "portsnap fetch ; portsnap update ; portupgrade -a" for a minor GNOME release [2.12.0 => 2.12.2], for a major upgrade a script is provided [2.10.x => 2.12.0], pretty easy.

If you would like to see things changed, you are free to create a tool to do the job. ;-)

Reply Score: 1

v Holy cow ....
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 07:28 UTC
v GNOME
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 09:58 UTC
RE: GNOME
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 10:38 UTC in reply to "GNOME"
Anonymous Member since:
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First of all GNOME has a very broken development framework with a lot of fragmentation. A lot of libraries are not working properly enough even in stable releases to give users a full working desktop environment. A lot of stuff are simply not working properly and a lot of stuff simply look too far disharmonic to be usefull. Not to speak about the poorly written third party applications that exists that don't serve any corporate needs.

This argument is pointless with out specific examples. Gnome works fine for many users, including myself.

When looking at this legendary example picture

A common image used by yourself for trolling. But I'll bite. EasyTag is an application that uses GTK, not a Gnome application. There is work underway to make it HIG compliant. AbiWord is a word processor and hence attempts to use the smaller toolbar layout common across all currently available competitors (on both linux and win32). The other windows are GEdit (a Gnome app) and Nautilus (a Gnome App). Note the similarity of button / toolbar size. Nautilus now defaults to spatial - hence no toolbar. The browser mode has configurable large / small icons. Finally, Evolution, another Gnome app (i.e. part of the platform) also uses the Gnome toolbar style. The dropdown on the New option is to mimic similar functionality used within Outlook, its main inspiration.

Thats the big disadvantage of writing apps in C without proper object orientation

OO has nothing to do with it. That's just FUD. If a library provides a Toolbar object (which GTK does) then any code can use it. Note you were previously discussing the problems of C. Here I see it as a benefit - ease of wrapper production. Note how many languages use wrappers around the core Gnome C libraries and happily make use of GTK.

poor applications that gave bad results, felt really bad, saved corrupt data to disk

Naturally you filed bugs on any problems you encountered, discussed them in forums, and dropped into irc to chat with the devs? No?

KDE is also not resource hungry or bloated as many people trying hard to make you believe. Who judges about resource hungry, who juges about bloat or too many objects on a toolbar ?

Sorry, had to quote that classic comment. Who judges about toolbars indeed....

Real integration is shown on KDE for example. Share of addressbook data across all applications (and it works today already). Oh and there is so much more.

evolution-data-server, "About Me", DBUS.


Look, I agree Gnome could do with some tinkering and improvement in many areas, but so could KDE. No DE is perfect, nor is one a better choice than another. I primarily use Gnome, but also have KDE around just to experience something different. I don't understand why XFCE, IceWM, WM etc don't get this sort of abuse from fanatics. This sort of attitude is pointless and a waste of your own time and others time. The energy spent copy and pasting that rant could have been much better spent contributing to your OSS project of choice.

Back on topic for the article, its good to see some minor improvements being made to Gnome 2.12. I'm looking forward to more of Frederico's improvements making it into minor releases, as the numbers really add up. Congratulations on some great work to all involved.

Reply Score: 2

RE: GNOME
by Felix on Thu 1st Dec 2005 11:26 UTC in reply to "GNOME"
Felix Member since:
2005-08-14

"Same applies for Evolution which recently (before the 2.4.0 announce) started to trash all my sync files mf my local mailbox..."

I use OpenSUSE and I must say the Evolution version there is the first Evolution version which really fullfills ALL my needs:

- Big local Maildir directory support which really works
- I can search through ALL my mail directories: IMAP and Maildir with the help of VFolders
- GPG signature/encryption is now nicely integrated

SUSE solved all the former problems with this version. I haven't had trashed sync files etc. with this version although my local mailbox has 450 MByte.

You should really check out the new OpenSUSE which is the fastest distribution I have ever tested (SUPER optimized with pePr preloading).

And you can use Evolution under KDE without problems which I do now because KDE is so damn fast under OpenSUSE ;)

Reply Score: 0

v RE: GNOME
by Soulbender on Thu 1st Dec 2005 11:27 UTC in reply to "GNOME"
v GNOME (part 2)
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 09:58 UTC
v GNOME (part 3)
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 09:59 UTC
Here we go...
by Budd on Thu 1st Dec 2005 10:13 UTC
Budd
Member since:
2005-07-08

..again. Flamefest begin.

Reply Score: 0

Ali, stop trolling this thread
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 10:32 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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and stop modding yourself up with the help of fake accounts.

This is simply childish, to put it mildly.

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous
Member since:
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Gnome 2.x should stay stable and just keep many of the poor areas. It is more important with something that stay the same than something that makes things a bit bether.

Gnome 3.x should maybe be started around the time of gnome 2.14. Maybe the big suporters should shift their manpower to that goal, but they should also keep working on gnome 2.16 and keep gnome 2.x stable.

A stable gnome 2.x can lather live in coexistense with gnome 3.x as that new platform matures trough time. This wil give the users something predictable to use and let the weakneses of the platform be addressed at the same time. All major plattforms of some age needs some tweaks from time to time.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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I do agree with you. I also hope that GNOME 3.x is being written mainly with MONO in mind to keep interoperability with other architectures such as Windows or OSX. To keep development simple, easy to maintain and to make bigger progress. Great programs such as F-Spot, Beagle, Muine, Tomboy and others are written in it. The applications look quite promising and the object oriented approach make it possible to do rapid application development.

Why vote would go for using MONO in the upcoming version of GNOME as much as possible and have it become a core part of the entire GNOME plattform. As it is now already since some of the tools such as F-Spot and Beagle are already part of the GNOME distribution.

There is no GNOME without MONO and no MONO without GNOME.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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I do not have anything against the technology in mono, but I do fear Microsoft. Another posibility is for Sun to open up Java and use that as a fundation. Java and mono is mostly the same anyway.

The basic infrastructure should keep C or use c++. gcc have no problems with c++ anymore. Most likely not much use of going for c++ here.

Gnome should anyway keep focus on openness for different languages. Developers have different backgrounds and different choises.

Reply Score: 0

elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

There is no GNOME without MONO and no MONO without GNOME.

Yes, but there could there be GNOME without REDHAT since there's no REDHAT with GNOME with MONO?

They've made their position clear, they won't accept mono. They'll work around it where they can (as they did with the OOo2 java dependencies to gcj), but they won't accept it as a requirement.

Note, I'm not commenting on the relevancy of mono, I'm not a developer so can't comment one way or the other, just pointing out the challenge Gnome may face balancing the requirements of their two biggest backers (RH and Novell). If Redhat ever pulled out of Gnome, it would be a blow to the organization.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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> Yes, but there could there be GNOME without REDHAT since there's no REDHAT with GNOME
> with MONO?

Yes there can. GNOME was a community project and probably still is. So whatever RedHat or any other Hat says is irrelevant.

> They've made their position clear, they won't accept mono. They'll work around it where
> they can (as they did with the OOo2 java dependencies to gcj), but they won't accept it as
> a requirement.

Who are "They" ? Again GNOME is not owned by any company. It's primarily community driven and the majority of the people who spent their time hacking on GNOME are using MONO for other project as well. If "They" whoever tey are don't accept Mono then it's their problem. GNOME is what the community is making out of it.

> balancing the requirements of their two biggest backers (RH and Novell).

Since when does Novell back GNOME ? Novell is up doing their own business and Novell also fired most of the GNOME people recently, this includes

a) nearly all Evolution hackers
b) nearly all Hula hackers
c) nearly all <forgot the name> hackers.

Backing GNOME up sounds the oposite to me.

> If Redhat ever pulled out of Gnome, it would be a blow to the organization.

They are not pulled out of GNOME, they have simply to go the way the developers move. If they can't get hold of MONO then they can do whatever they want even fork GNOME if they prefer. But this won't get them anywhere without the already present developers (who prefer MONO).

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Novell didn't fire nearly all of the GNOME/Evolution/Hula hackers at all.

1 Evolution hacker quit.
1 Hula hacker got layed off.
1 GNOME developer got layed off.
0 Mono hackers got layed off.

7 KDE developers got layed off.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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this is true and can be verified. the rumour put about that all the hula and evolution hackers got sacked was nothing more than a vicious rumour put about by a kde fanboy who had just got the sack from his kde job.
and only the gullible and the clueless such as IP 84.129.215 believed it and continue to believe it.

Reply Score: 0

Nautilus is useless
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 12:32 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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When Gnome developers will replace Nautilus with a decent
file manager ?
no serious nautilus right now is useless....

Reply Score: 0

RE: Nautilus is useless
by SlackerJack on Thu 1st Dec 2005 13:22 UTC in reply to "Nautilus is useless"
SlackerJack Member since:
2005-11-12

Tell me, in what way is nautilus useless? You must be right because i've been using it for years, I wondered why I never ever got anything done.

Is this the same uselessness of xfce4 filemanager or a whole new level?. I'm guessing your using Spartilus mode and you have not worked it out yet!

Edited 2005-12-01 13:24

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Nautilus is useless
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 13:25 UTC in reply to "RE: Nautilus is useless"
Anonymous Member since:
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> I wondered why I never every got anything done.

That's why ;)

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Nautilus is useless
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 13:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Nautilus is useless"
Anonymous Member since:
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luckily for him, he wasn't using konqueror. he would definitely be getting things done then - like coding for kde to get rid of all the bugs, to stop it crashing every 15 minites, to speed it up to even a snails pace, to stop it being a resource hog, and to make it at least semi-usable.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Nautilus is useless
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 13:55 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Nautilus is useless"
Anonymous Member since:
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I suppose you haven't used KDE for a long time, right?

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Nautilus is useless
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 14:26 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Nautilus is useless"
Anonymous Member since:
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"I suppose you haven't used KDE for a long time, right?"

not since yesterday when i used 3.4.2, no. why? has konqueror changed since then?

Reply Score: 0

v RE[6]: Nautilus is useless
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 14:27 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Nautilus is useless"
RE[7]: Nautilus is useless
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 14:49 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Nautilus is useless"
Anonymous Member since:
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i'm not living in the dark ages at all, but some other people are. if you inspect 3.5 carefuly, you will see that konquerer hasn't yet metamorphosed into something thats even semi-usable. same old same old.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Nautilus is useless
by segedunum on Thu 1st Dec 2005 16:45 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Nautilus is useless"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

like coding for kde to get rid of all the bugs, to stop it crashing every 15 minites

Nope.

to speed it up to even a snails pace

If Konqueror is that slow, what the hell's Nautilus?

to stop it being a resource hog

Resource hog how?

and to make it at least semi-usable.

Well, when I use a file manager I expect to be able to see a list of files and folders in something less than 20 seconds and I actually want to be able to copy large files.

Are you sure you're not getting your file managers mixed up here?

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Nautilus is useless
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 16:58 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Nautilus is useless"
Anonymous Member since:
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"If Konqueror is that slow, what the hell's Nautilus?"

considerably faster. but then you wouldn't know because you've never used nautilus. or so your opinions of it show.


"Resource hog how?"

because its big, ugly, and bloated. what do you expect? a file manager that even makes my breakfast in the morning to be skimpy on resources? i think not. its also so tied in to other parts of kde that it brings down other applications too when it goes down(frequently)



"Well, when I use a file manager I expect to be able to see a list of files and folders in something less than 20 seconds and I actually want to be able to copy large files.

Are you sure you're not getting your file managers mixed up here?"

i'm positively certain. see the comments made by kde's own aaron krill on some of its problems.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: Nautilus is useless
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:02 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Nautilus is useless"
Anonymous Member since:
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> considerably faster. but then you wouldn't know because you've never used nautilus.
> or so your opinions of it show.

Actually on my system (GNOME CVS) Nautilus is quite a lot slower than (KDE SVN) Konqueror.

> because its big, ugly, and bloated. what do you
> expect? a file manager that even makes my breakfast
> in the morning to be skimpy on resources? i think
> not. its also so tied in to other parts of kde that
> it brings down other applications too when it goes
> down(frequently)

I see the professionalism in your way of replying. Actually Konqueror can not be bloated since it's nothing more than a Window around the kparts and kioslaves modell. The rest of your explaination only shows how retarded you are.

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: Nautilus is useless
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:19 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Nautilus is useless"
Anonymous Member since:
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"I see the professionalism in your way of replying. Actually Konqueror can not be bloated since it's nothing more than a Window around the kparts and kioslaves modell. The rest of your explaination only shows how retarded you are."

haha and you're not. i nearly choked on my lunch when i read the above. you, the person who lives in a fantasy world that he used to be a gnome developer and continually posts the same old rubbish on each and every thread about gnome showing his total and complete lack of understanding of gnome.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: Nautilus is useless
by segedunum on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:52 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Nautilus is useless"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

considerably faster. but then you wouldn't know because you've never used nautilus. or so your opinions of it show.

Since you don't know how slow Nautilus is, and that you've never used Konqueror and you're stirring around for soundbites.....

because its big, ugly, and bloated.

The same old words again. So how is it a resource hog then? Do you have figures on memory usage, especially taking into account KDE and Konqueror reuse infinitely more code than anything in Gnome?

its also so tied in to other parts of kde that it brings down other applications too when it goes down(frequently)

It's called reuse, it works, it doesn't crash things at all and it's something neither Nautilus or Gnome does. I don't know how you know it crashed frequently when you obviously don't use it......

see the comments made by kde's own aaron krill on some of its problems.

They're not the problems you've described by any stretch of the imagination. He's talking about usability keeping Konqueror's reuse but making more specific applications - web browser and file manager etc. I happen to agree with that. He's not describing phantom crashes that don't happen.

Edited 2005-12-01 18:53

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Nautilus is useless
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:59 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Nautilus is useless"
Anonymous Member since:
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segedunum
have you eevr heard the phrase 'stop digging'?

Reply Score: 0

v RE[4]: Nautilus is useless
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 13:59 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Nautilus is useless"
RE[5]: Nautilus is useless
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 14:00 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Nautilus is useless"
Anonymous Member since:
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Your caps lock button is broken.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: Nautilus is useless
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 14:23 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Nautilus is useless"
Anonymous Member since:
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no, my caps lock is far from broken. it was purposefully written in caps so that he sees the question much more clearly than he has done in the past.

Reply Score: 0

Nautilus
by SlackerJack on Thu 1st Dec 2005 13:33 UTC
SlackerJack
Member since:
2005-11-12

What do you call a desent filemanager, since it has more fuctionallity than Windows explorer, whats your probelm?

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Nautilus is useless
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 14:07 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Oh, he has developed for Gnome, just look at his homepage:
http://www.akcaagac.com/index.html

You'll also find that he has developed many things that one couldn't describe as roaring successes, which might explain his frustration.

P.S.: Oh, and though I understand you getting angry at him, writing in caps really is impolite and as you have seen, gives Ali a good way to ignore your question.

Reply Score: 0

XFCE
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 14:38 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Running GNOME apps from XFCE works fine here. XFCE has a new filemanager (currently still under development) called "thunar" that's a great light-weight alternative to nautilus. Every XFCE release now comes with a platform-independent installer, which means that it's minimal fuss to install the latest XFCE on any *BSD or GNU/Linux distro as soon as it's been released.

Reply Score: 0

GNOME
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:12 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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As a former contributor and developer on the GNOME architecture for many years I can say that GNOME is in no way ready to serve as the corporate desktop. There are simply to many issues inside and around the entire GNOME movement that should be mentioned here.

First of all GNOME has a very broken development framework with a lot of fragmentation. A lot of libraries are not working properly enough even in stable releases to give users a full working desktop environment. A lot of stuff are simply not working properly and a lot of stuff simply look too far disharmonic to be usefull. Not to speak about the poorly written third party applications that exists that don't serve any corporate needs.

From a developers view I believe that GNOME has reached a dead end where scalability isn't possible anymore. People have realized that with the C languge there is no progress and thus decided to code under Python, C++, Java, Ruby or MONO. But personally I believe that having a mature GNOME desktop these days require you to have Python, MONO, Java running next to your regular application, which makes it hard to have all of them incooperate correctly (to work correctly). This is not the problem of having different languages laying around or running in the background but more architectual nature as soon as it comes to bugtracking, feedback, expandability etc. Many bindings are not well implemented and have a lot of attributes not correctly defined which makes applications look and behave differently.

As example I always get back to the legendary Toolbar issues that I like to explain. I do explain it because it's the by far easiest thing people can test on their own system.

When looking at this legendary example picture:

http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot34ji.jpg

You see a bunch of GNOME applications showing different types of Toolbars. I don't want to speak about the images inside the Toolbars but rather how they look. They all look differently, behave differently, react differently, some toolbars are higher than others (a few pixel) others have a drag handle, others show icons only, then others again show text below icons. There is no common approach of doing this correctly. Sure some people say these things are not important. But from a developers point of view - they are. It only shows in what bad shape GNOME really is even today with latest CVS you see the same issues still present. It should give the beginner and advanced users an impression what's wrong. A Desktop Environment should provide a consistent API and framework to do these things correctly. Please load up GNUMERIC, Abiword, Evolution, Evince and a few others and go through your "Menus & Toolbars" capplet (control center) and change around the values and you see that the majority of applications bundled in the corporate GNOME desktop do not react on these changes. Personally I consider these things to be a bug. I already reported many of these issues and recently my toolbar bugreport to gnumeric got closed as NOT A BUG with some random intransparent excuses why the HIG cant be applied to gnumeric. This is quite frustrating since the applications look bad that way (only the aesthetic view that GNOME always wanted to lay big values on). There are so many other areas like button padding, button padding between other buttons and and and.

It's a never ending story. Also I ask myself why tools like Evince or Epiphany (both part of the GNOME desktop) come with an own Toolbar editor while other applications don't support that. From a developers point of view this should be part of the GTK+ Toolkit and made available default to all apps or everything that uses the Toolbar.

Thats the big disadvantage of writing apps in C without proper object orientation (yes I know GNOME has some sort of object orientation). If we look over to KDE for example then we see that every application that uses a Toolbar (not all apps need one I know this too) share the same Toolbar object, if you change global settings then it automatically affect all applications (icons only, text under icons, drag handles etc.) the Toolbar object comes with an toolbar editor (to change icons, text under icons, draghandle, icon size etc.). This speaks about KDE's great architecture which is pretty well designed.

Again this is just a small example to not make the understanding overwhelming complex. There are many other issues (architectual nature) inside GNOME and it goes on in many areas such as gnome-vfs (which is quite broken, there is no progress information when copying files from FTP (deep directory structures with many files), aborting is nearly impossible and so on (not to speak about many other modules, but FTP is the one I know best) like copying 0 byte files over and so on.

Basic stuff still in stable GNOME that don't work reliable enough to get serious work done. People always come up with the same BS that GNOME is the light desktop, that it's so great, clean and so on, that it's the desktop to get work done. Evince crashing when selecting text, crashing on exit, gnome-print saving documents as *.ps files show other font or save corrupt data and and and.

But this is not the case to say the truth. As a former student of computer and economics science as well as I am now an IT-Project leader I depended on doing stuff for University such as drawing diagrams or UML stuff. I depended (since I was a hardcore GNOMER) on tools like DIA to try getting the work done. But DIA was a poor applications that gave bad results, felt really bad, saved corrupt data to disk (with lost hours of work). My university professor one day looked at me, and asked me whether I painted the use case diagram with a paint program. I told him that I was using DIA and I saw a smile on his face which he left uncommented afterwards.

Even printing doesn't work reliable in DIA, nor does it work reliable enough in other applications. I had to search for alternatives and landed on KDE using Kivio and Umbrello. These apps surely aren't the best apps existing, but they gave me more the feeling to get my work done. They worked, felt ok and the printout results was great. Not to mention that my learning curve was minimal since the apps reminded me quite a lot on commercial counterparts found on Microsoft Windows.

Like printing GIF images as black image (totally black paper printout), like not supporting printing more pages on one physical sheet (evince for example) and these things exists in gnome-print/ui and are an elementary thing of the stable gnome releases recently. I wanted to print a document with 120 pages in evince on 4 pages per 1 physical sheet, which should end up in 30 pages of paper. but after I came back from dinner I saw that evince printed it on 120 pages rather than 30 as I was assuming. These things can not be.

Same applies for Evolution which recently (before the 2.4.0 announce) started to trash all my sync files mf my local mailbox. It's quite frustrating and irritating to get dialogs all the time telling one that something is broken. same applies for the "get emails as soon as you start evolution" bug, specially if you use freemailers with timeout you keep stuck in getting dialogs all the time you start evolution telling one that it can not pop emails due to timeout of the mail isp.

Reply Score: 2

GNOME (part 2)
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:12 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Such things can not be in corporate desktops. If you really consider people and companies who spent a lot of money into their busiens to use GNOME then please make sure these issues don't exist anymore.

Continuing with my work. As I said I am an IT-Project leader now and need to deal with projects these days. Again using Planner as the only existing GNOME Project management software I ended up in frustrations since Planner is more like a toy than a mature application. Again I had to switch over to KDE to use Task Juggler for this kind of activity, simply for the fact that Task Juggler came quite close to MS Project, offered a lot of features and is free to use.

Same applies in many other areas comparing GNOME with KDE (Rhythmbox vs. amaroK) and so on. We see how quickly KDE applications progress and become mature. Now with better C++ support and more developers and users KDE becomes better and better. The applications are miles ahead of what GNOME has to offer and basic functions like sound, printing, good looks, consistency, integration and interoperability simply works. Sure KDE is far from perfect but chosing between these two desktops KDE simply wins in all areas.

And that's an important factor. Of course GNOME has the same choice to lead the desktops but sadly it hasn't and I am not willing to wait years over years only to see GNOME making less steps forward.

KDE is also not resource hungry or bloated as many people trying hard to make you believe. Who judges about resource hungry, who juges about bloat or too many objects on a toolbar ? What is the ones disadvantage is the others pet feature. Some people say that KDE is overengineered but I say that GNOME peoples lost focus. I recall when SUN started doing the usability studies some years ago. It didn't took long and the majority of people magically became all usability experts over night. And good applications became got turned nearly into a productivity barrier (if you ever happen to be productive with GNOME at all) I always find myself fiddlign around in things that simply don't work. And I keep spending more hours in fixing the issues rather than start using the Desktop to get anything done. Always when you quickly need something you end up being lost on GNOME and its tools.

Another big issues is trying to contribute to GNOME.

Look, when I started to help out GNOME around 1999 or so I defiantely didn't came and called the people "jerks". This has been grown out over the long time of six years. I have never been treated like a piece of shit as I was when trying to help GNOME to help shape GNOME, to be part of it. But I had to deal with ignorants, hardheaded people, egoists and a lot of people who are incapable to work together with others.

Even if you as developer want to contribute to GNOME you are under permanent attack, you receive nothing else than huge diffamation, attacks, namecalling, slandering and so on. This drives people away from contributing to GNOME.

Most developers around GNOME are some sort of having found themselves in "groups" they usually block every contribution from outside and usually declare valid and good stuff as stupid, silly or as troll attempt. This is quite frustrating for people who want to contribute. The attempt to contribute something towards GNOME is a very stone way and usually leads to frustrations at the end.

The best thing for contributors is to do the dirt work. The leftovers which the GNOME developers don't want to work on. Like writing documentations, doing the translations and so on. But as soon as it goes to normal bugfixes for bugs that are known for years these bugreports stay in bgo without attention. If you happen to have some time please head over to bgo and have a look on your own and you see how many bugs have been left there without attention. No comments, not even a feedback why the bug has been rejected or what was wrong with it.

Totally impossible is it as soon as you want to contribute some sort of features (because you reject working on the dirty leftovers or the simple patches that no one gives a f--k for). Working on features is usually the fun part of contributing. You are then directed to put your patches on bgo with comments like "we will have a look at that later" and then it stays there without any feedback for years. They are not interested to get new people helping that project.

Now I hope you may imagine why I don't have very good words left for GNOME. Sure not everyone is guilty not everyone is an ass or behaves like that, but you need to take my apology that I stopped separating the good ones from the bad ones. I am seriously tired doing this.

Also really frustrating is the heavy abuse inside the GNOME community, those whom we as members have elected behave like patrons on their positions. A lot of my friends whom initially tried contributing to GNOME has been scared away due to bad practices and always repeated attacks (its like a dejavu now). Most normal people never heard about these kinds of practices or can't imagine that this can really be happening - but sadly from my perspective this is the case.

Reply Score: 1

GNOME (part 3)
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:13 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Normal ordinary people who want to contribute or come up with an idea are treatened with disrespect and kicked with the bare foots. One day a friend of mine also a valuable member of the GNOME community came up with an idea (together with his girlfriend) to shave "GNOME GIRLS" he brought up that idea on the mailinglists (iirc) but everyone told him to go away, and that his ideas aren't great. But then some months later some girls from Red Hat have shown up with a brilliant idea (guess what, yes) to create "GNOME GIRLS" and voila they have been getting mailinglist acces, cvs access, all permissions granted everywhere and everyone called it a great ide. Why ? We talked about that for quite a while and concluded that this is due to the Red Hat position they keep wearing. Same applies with other companies that have been founded around GNOME, they immediately been granted warm seats in the foundation, in the board, while others (no company related ones) have been left out and ignored for years. How comes and how can GNOME still be called a community project and why do people still defend their practices ? GNOME totally lost it's roots and focus for users and users needs.

Well trying to come to an end here. What I want to say is that there are a lot of issues inside GNOME, it starts from many small and bigger bits of GNOME as desktop itself. From broken architecture, as well as not getting people on one table to have the work together (HIG is an example here) or to have simply basic stuff working good enough to get at least the basic things done. Over to the problem with the acceptance of people inside the community as well as the abuse everywhere.

That's why I recommend everyone these days to go with KDE. Their entire community is by far more friendly, the people are great, the developers are totally differently compared to the ones working on GNOME (its like day and night). Bugs are fixed immediately, patches are accepted. The framework (once you deal with it a bit more) is so great, things simply work. Sure sometimes problems occour on KDE as well, nothing is perfect, but the amount of problems is by far minimal if we consider how big that project is.

KDE from rough guess is 3 times bigger than GNOME (also a lot of translations stuff, source code). It's easier to build, it's all based on C++, no need to deal with different languages or getting upset or split an entire community because someone is using C, other C++, Python, Perl, Mono, Java (this will cause a lot of problems in GNOME camp too once the transtion to GNOME III starts. Already now a lot of people aren't really happy about all this). KDE works, offers great tools, looks mature.

KDE isn't much bigger than GNOME actually, on my system a normal KDE installation consisting of these tools:

qt-copy arts kdelibs kdebase kdeutils kdenetwork kdegraphics kdemultimedia kdegames kdepim koffice kdesdk kdevelop kdewebdev kdeedu kdetoys kdeartwork

Requires around 650 mb including headers and stripped binaries. The same amount I get with GNOME installed + Firefox + Evolution + headers etc. But I get much more tools for KDE. Sure I don't need all of them, but maybe I will need one of them one day and I would be happy if it's there.

Also whenever I hear GNOME devs talking about integration (like the evolution-data-server integration in the calendar/clock applet) I need to start laughing. It's no real integration, just some "hack" which was rewarded with money. Real integration is shown on KDE for example. Share of addressbook data across all applications (and it works today already). Oh and there is so much more.

Well I gave you an idea Novell. I really wonder who set that itch in your head to make GNOME the default. Was it a politics decision or a rational technology one ?

I am quite unhappy that all this politics stuff is being done on the heads of users, customers and people. Linux is a great System, KDE is a great environment many times better than GNOME and the momentum damage you caused with the recent announcements will stay in peoples head for a long long time. I feel sorry for your decision on making GNOME default regardless if you steer back now. Please consider again and listen to your customers. These are who feed your children, clothe your family and make you pay your rent and car.

I have no issues with GNOME, I do like GNOME and it deserves its place. But what I don't like is the bad practices around GNOME, e.g. the bad marketing, lying to their customers and then the agressive marketing that GNOME is so much ready for the corporate desktop. I really hate this. I hate being lied as customer and I hate it as developer who spent years of his time in GNOME and being not asked whether I like that GNOME is being sold that way.

Corporate have needs, they rely on working things, they spent a lot of money, they want the things to simply work and not toy around in things first.

To say the truth, all this talk about evil Microsoft (yeah there are people who try making a competition out of it) is pure bullshit in my opinion. Windows isn't a bad Operating System (regardless of the practices of Microsoft). It offers a lot of tools and its still being used everywhere and it still leads the desktop. I really dislike seeing GNOME as the default desktop in the Linux world because I know that things will not change. If it hasn't been changed by now then it probably will never ever change at all. GNOME has a long way to go, a very long way, and that long way only to catch where KDE is today, not to speak about catching up with Windows or even MacOSX. So please don't decide about political stuff, decide of what works. KDE these days is used by 2/3 of all Open Source Desktop users and these values (as often seen everywhere in polls) are speaking for itself.

Reply Score: 1

v GNOME
by dummy_account on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:37 UTC
v GNOME (part 2)
by dummy_account on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:37 UTC
v GNOME (part 3)
by dummy_account on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:39 UTC
RE: GNOME (part 3)
by Morty on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:44 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

[snip]GNOME (part 1), (part 2), (part 3)[snip]

I guess you spent some time writing up those 3 big pieces, and you probably like to use it in a way so you feel you get something back for the invested time. But can you please stop re-posting it over and over again, it's quite annoying.

Even if it sometimes are ontopic and for the most part seems correct, and should not originally have been modded down. That time is past, now it's nothing more than some annoying canned response or spam. If you really feel the need to reuse the text in discussions here, limit yourself to smaller pieces of it. And only when relevant, please.

Reply Score: 2

re: dummy_account
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:44 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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wtf is your problem?

Reply Score: 0

RE: re: dummy_account
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:47 UTC in reply to "re: dummy_account"
Anonymous Member since:
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I am not responsible for the dummy account reposts. So beware! I reposted the other ones using my IP (as it's verificable) due to the fact that the initial posts used to be moderated +4 (all three of them) and that lasted for some hours until someone with his fake accounts moderated them down to -4 or so.

Reply Score: 0

v Not corporate ready!
by dummy_account on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:45 UTC
Ooops
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:47 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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should have been re:gnome. sorry.

Still, wtf is your problem? ;)

Reply Score: 0

v GNOME
by dummy_account on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:48 UTC
v Ranting and moaning
by SlackerJack on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:49 UTC
Making GNOME suck less
by dummy_account on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:51 UTC
dummy_account
Member since:
2005-09-11

GNOME would suck less if the ground architecture would simply work. That basic things like windows, toolbars, menus would be done in ONE WAY rather than 20 different ways, that tools like Glade should be re-invented properly and not this poor thing that people keep designing their dialogs with and where properties inside the *.glade files are set inproperly and wrong. GNOME would also suck less if it had a global plugins system such as Kioslave or KParts. Bonobo is so what complex that no real documents exists. So instead writing plugins or snapins so other apps inside GNOME can use it. People keep writing new libraries and make all the apps depend on these libraries because its the easier solution for them to solve this task. A plugins pool where apps could grab a working object and register it with their programs would have been a better choice imo.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Making GNOME suck less
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:56 UTC in reply to "Making GNOME suck less"
Anonymous Member since:
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True that and thanks for following my comments all the years. It's good to see hat people keep track of what I write and I still stand behind of the things that I wrote. Be it in the past or in the present. But I would have appreciated if you would write your own stuff and your own opinion regarding GNOME and not use other peoples comments to profilate as you've been doing atm. It's easily verificable by the OSN staff who wrote what and that I am not responsible for the dummy_account reposts. So please, if you have something to contribute, be it valid criticism or even if it's a rant. Do your own shit.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Making GNOME suck less
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:05 UTC in reply to "RE: Making GNOME suck less"
Anonymous Member since:
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"I am not responsible for the dummy_account reposts."

Bullshit. I know you already have two accounts here. I bet "dummy_account" is yours too. You are such a loser.

Ali's other two accounts are called "oGalaxyo" and "Ali Akcaagac"

Reply Score: 1

v RE[3]: Making GNOME suck less
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:11 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Making GNOME suck less"
More on GNOME
by dummy_account on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:54 UTC
dummy_account
Member since:
2005-09-11

Some further words about GNOME and why I think it's so damn broken and why I believe that contributions alone don't solve the issues.

The problem is not the contributions. The problem is getting those contributions accepted by the maintainers.

Over the years I realized that the request of contributions is just a poor excuse to avoid conversations with the developers or users who want something to get changed.

Some stuff in gnome-vfs for example was so utterly broken that it wasn't touched for a really long time. There wasn't even a maintainer for it (only a guy who kept putting some stuff in there whenever it was needed). Now some other people seem to have taken over the maintainance of it and the process continues.

But within the GNOME development team I found out (due to own experience) that it's quite difficult if not highly impossible to get some ideas through or to convince a developer that a different approach would have been wiser or better. Not to say save a lot of time. But people kept using the broken components for years.

Even now not everything inside GNOME is sane or reliable and a lot of stuff seem to be reinvented over and over again. See DBUS for example or basic things like "specifications" as found on freedesktop.org. GNOME makes freedesktop.org sound like it's a place for developers from GNOME and KDE to met and declare specifications but this is not always true since KDE had solved most of the necessary things that GNOME still urgently needs years before and their specifications and solutions are often by far better thought through and much more mature - and over the years proven that it also works practically and not just as concept.

For example you can compile KDE with a static prefix in say /opt/kde3 and later on you can move this entire directory to /usr/local/kde3 without the need to recompile anything. On GNOME we sill have the issue that every path is hardcoded inside the binaries so you can't move the entire location if necessary. One of the bad concepts of GNOME.

Another bad thing about GNOME is that the developers do have nice ideas at time but they lack the power or durability to make the changes or visions they have complete. GStreamer for example is indeed a nice technology and it somehow made it's path inside GNOME but still it doesn't feel like it's truly part of GNOME since some apps use it, others avoid using it and stick to xine. Now if these apps stick to xine then chances that GStreamer gets fixed and a whole part of GNOME is low.

Another thing is that plenty of the developers seem to have rotating focus on stuff. Today they work on this one, then tomorrow they focus on hacking on Mozilla or hack on 'dead ideas' they have that no one really takes serious so all the resources of working and fixing GNOME get's lost with playground stuff.

We all know that GNOME was meant to be a corporate desktop. But then a corporate desktop needs different resources and a different approach. Serious project leading is required, strict guidelines are required, and people with brains to enable them.

It can not be (now that the HIG as guideline exists for some years) that applications developer still ignore it. I don't care for third party stuff. But I do care for the important and key elements of GNOME software that should be a good example and follow these guidelines.

GIMP, DIA, Evolution, Abiword, Gnumeric only to name a few are in no way HIG conform. Some are, but others not. I filled in a bug for Gnumeric not long ago pointing the developer to the HIG v2.0 where it says that the Toolbar should obey the rules of Toolbar & Menus capplet (which is a core part of GNOME) unfortunately the bug was closed as not a bug and no further comments have been given to it.

Also printing is a necessary importand thing in GNOME imo and it can't be that I load up GThumb to print a *.gif file and it ends up in printing a totally black picture on a white sheet of paper, wasting nearly 1/3 of my black ink cartridge.

It's also inacceptable for a corporate desktop to have a document reader and viewer like Evince that prints a whole document correctly with correct fonts but as soon as I start printing one page out of it messes the fonts totally up (looks like monotype fonts when printed).

It's the release team to take care of what they include inside GNOME, if the stuff is still immature or not working properly then it should by all means be avoided for inclusion since it doesn't help anyone. GNOME is often claimed to be the desktop to get work done. But I often find myself to do more work in fixing stuff around GNOME rather than getting work done. Printing job applications usually ends the way that I switch into console and print over ghostscript using cups rather than trusting gnome-print or evince (which fault this is I don't know but a confirmed bugreport exists).

As a corporate desktop I urgently require reliable tools and I require these tools today and not - one day. Look DIA, Nautilus, Evolution and many other tools exists for years now and DIA is nowhere to be usable and I often tried giving them a helping hand which I got ugly repsonses from the maintainers.

This does help the corporate idea how ? In no ways does this help anything. I do find the "Tango Project" and "Better Desktop" to be a nice thing but I somehow got the feeling that it's just a reaction towards the plasma project that KDE offers.

Unfortunately in my opinion the KDE people do make a better figure with what they announce because most of the stuff they do works. Sure, not perfectly and sometimes you have quirks and other issues inside KDE as well but the tools exists to get work done. You don't need to think about does it print correctly. It simply does. You don't need to worry about Kivio or Umbrella not working correctly they simply do make a better shape than DIA for example.

KDE may look overwhelming complex and overloaded in the eyes of inexperienced people but in other peoples minds it looks just right and offers all the stuff one really needs without worrying.

I don't say that these things won't show up for GNOME one day but I can tell you from personal experiences that developing for GNOME is a nightmare.

As initially said you can easily move a final compiled KDE binary system from one dir to another and have the stuff work perfectly and perfectly find the datafiles. GNOME doesn't offer that. ;)

Reply Score: 0

Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 17:58 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Someone ban Ali already.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:03 UTC in reply to "Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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Maybe they should start by banning you ? Who knows maybe dummy_account is you ? People like you make me sick and it only proves what the lengthy three part comments proves. The GNOME crowd is full of freaking and really insulting people.

Namecalling == true
Insulting == true
Not able to accept critics == true
Not able to deliver a working Desktop == true
<add other stuff here> == true.

Go and contact the OSN staff and have them verify the IP's used.

Reply Score: 0

v RE[2]: Please
by SlackerJack on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:11 UTC in reply to "RE: Please"
RE[2]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:14 UTC in reply to "RE: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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"Maybe they should start by banning you"
You are the one that is trolling Ali. If you hate Gnome so much just stop posting here. Just leave us alone and stop with all these posts. Your not accomplishing anything!

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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FYI and to everyone else. I just dropped Eugenia an email a few seconds ago about the mess caused here and hope she's going to nuke that dummy_ass account and the guy behind it. Regardless of the comments as for the time being.

> If you hate Gnome so much just stop posting here.
> Just leave us alone and stop with all these posts.

Who are you telling others where to post and where not. Wasn't open source all about free speach and having an own opinion ?

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 20:06 UTC in reply to "RE: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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Ali: you claim GNOME devs are insulting, namecall, not able accept criticism, yet here you are portraying all the same traits you accuse us of having.

Maybe the reason you've found GNOME devs react so negatively toward you is because you've been insulting toward them even after they've tried to work with you to address issues you've borught up (in mean and nasty ways).

Stop being such an ass and start treating GNOME devs as human beings if you want to be treated that way.

We all try to do our best, but we can only take so much before we start ignoring you (which you like to portray as us insulting you, namecalling, etc).

You also need to stop with your know-it-all attitude which many of us find insulting and makes it impossible to work with you to solve your issues.

Reply Score: 2

v RE[3]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 21:02 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Please"
RE[3]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 21:39 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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> they've tried to work with you

While I was taking a shower I thought a bit about your sentence and asked myself whether it is the same way you tried working with people like him:

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-hackers/2001-June/msg00120.htm...

You know who he was/is yes ? And you probably also know what he did for GNOME yes ?

You also happen to know who people like Star (one of the core artists around GNOME during the 1.x to 2.x transition) or Dr. Frickle (IBM guy who happened to maintain some GNOME pages) were ?

The same way you worked together with Eugenia who came up with very good and reasonable proposals ? Hey she's even more calm than I'm and yet you had big issues dealing with a girl.

http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=9933

Hey it was all plasterd over even on the GNOME mailing lists. Well we and probably a lot more are all not matching the GNOME communitys scheme of possible contributors. And we all have social problems that we need to solve.

I also don't see anything wrong with my initial 3 comments comment (I had to split it due to limitation). Surely I can be blamed to have it cut&pasted over from 1 or 2 other OSN articles before but then it still matches and still is a highly valid comment with many valid reasons and points inside. It had a reason why people spent +4 voting points on ALL THREE comments. It lasted for a couple of hours, got slightly modded down and then up again which is a proof that the so called "rant" is not really a rant but more speaking out of the hearts of people. The reason why specially "my comment" is treated with more care than others is the fact that I am more or less a Renegade who had perfect insight inside GNOME (it had a reason why I hang out in the GNOME irc channels for years) day in, day out.

I saw a lot of people with "social problems" (as you might say) joining the channels, being scared away and never have shown up again, so I perfectly know what's going on. That's something you people feel scared. If I was that regular f--king troll you want to make out of me then why do you people spent so much attention specially for my person and specially for my comments (which then within seconds got moderated down to -4 - which is quite questionable).

People who quickly moderate down something usually have something big to hide, they probably dislike the context or feel personal insulted or simply can't stand constructive critics. That was always a big problem within GNOME. The high egos of developers who play the heroes of open source who can't really deal with critics. Well as you can read on the blogs they always hype themselves up in high skies but critics, dare who does that.

Anyways you might get a hint out of this.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 21:53 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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Waldo Bastian (KDE developer since KDE 1.0):

"I'm very disappointed with the lack of communication within this project.

[...]

Perhaps KDE is not the right project for these people and they should consider working on something which they can do on their own. Appearantly not everyone is able to cooperate in a group.

[...]

f--k you too"


http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-devel&m=97014283820433&w=2


That took 3 seconds to find on Google. Do you want me to find more? Ali stop trolling, KDE is no darling child. People argue, simple as that.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 21:54 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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Forgot to post Torben's response:

"Did I tell to f--k you?

I talked to Eric about the issue. The current documentation
in kspread was hardcoded, the code that used it broke,
the examples were wrong. So you prefer shipping broken code and
wrong documentation because of a message freeze?

Then go ahead. And you are right: I seem to be in the wrong place here.
I can get broken software because of release schedules from Microsoft,
too.

I spend some days of my free time with fixing elementary bugs in kspread.
I am sorry that this affected the translations. I taklked with
other about that. It is not true that I did that without asking anybody.

However, regarding that words you have chosen you do not really
deserve any kind of answer.

Bye
Torben"

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 22:16 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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More links for fun:

Ali's paranoia leads to Miguel de Icaza suggesting he "needs help":
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2003-April/msg002...

Ali isn't rude... it's the "community":
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/balsa-list/2001-June/msg00126.html

More insults:
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-devel-list/2003-April/msg00163...

He has a mission! (even if it includes telling the gnome devs their project has no future):
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2002-October/msg00065.html

Way to go, Ali! Show those those idiots at gnome how to keep a community full of friends, puppies, rainbows and green, vast meadows.

I'm sure that after five years continously trolling the project you'll get to it. Or perhaps you'll have wasted lots of time just to be remembered as the quintessential troll. Who knows.

Reply Score: 2

v RE[6]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 22:21 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Please"
RE[6]: Please
by Anonymous on Fri 2nd Dec 2005 08:10 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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Oh come on, it's quite easy digging up a handful of not really good emails out of the thousands that were written. And it's not deal making someone look like an ass if you provide only those links that help you achieving that goal - by showing just the negative ones. The amount of good vs. bad emails are in no way compareable or have the same weight.

Look closer to the mailinglists that you provide and you see other people writing similar stuff. Besides that here is the correct LibXML2 comment I made and not the one cut out of context which you happen to have post.

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-devel-list/2003-April/msg00140...

And it would probably be an easy thing to dig up the same amount of crap if I knew your name. But then it's not required if you simply look down the archives of said gnome lists which going back to 1998 or so you find a lot of similar mails and treats written by others.

The point is that even some others here and on other places have reported similar bad experiences with people involved into GNOME, they got sick of it and left. It's easy to blame the big mistakes and failures of GNOME towards others - and I seriously wonder why for my person there is more attention being given than if someone else writes a comment or opinion about GNOME. I don't see the difference between someone else saying "gnome sucks" and me saying "gnome sucks" with only the one exception that everyone comes up here whenever I do and only dump down the entire shit towards me.

A bit curious this is but then it's no wonder that I have and made the same experiences than others. Why don't you people go and have a conversation with the people mentioned above ? Through the conversations with then you see a lot of similarities and parallels and similar treats to what the handful of people are doing here.

It's easy to totally crap out someones name because (as you might remember) most GNOME developers have found themselves into "groups" they grouped together to fight exactly all attacks, critics, contructive feedback. They act like gods where they sit and they think they are right and the only correct people outside. It's clear that when someone criticises GNOME that within a few mins or hours exactly that bunch of developers show up making it look like you are the ass and the cause for everything.

The huge success of KDE here is their community and the different philosophy and their great people. How comes I don't have these problems with KDE ? How comes nearly everyone treatens me with respect there, we do have good conversations, yes we sometimes even disagree but the entire thing is totally different.

And why ?

Because KDE is successful, it has achieved all the stuff that GNOME is still trying to catch up with. KDE is there and even ahead of what GNOME is talking for - for years. KDE offers the applications that GNOME barely can deliver, KDE offers the solution for enterprise.

How comes that in the KDE thread below (the 3.5 announce) all the GNOME people jumped in and made a hell fest out of it (with a few exceptions who said thank you) everyone else came up with the same old junk like bloat, resource hog, qt license or other stuff. But as soon as someone starts some well defined and valid critics of the GNOME plattform then something totally ticks off in the head of GNOME people and they start using absolutely inacceptable methods only to get rid of those who reported them.

It's not just fun anymore, it's insanity. And the ones who clearly deserve visiting a psychatry are those who believe that GNOME already surpassed OSX and Windows. The Open Source movement don't need such people. Open Source always was about fun, about freedom of speech (Freesoftware), about a culture. Not about marketing, not about competition with Microsoft or Apple - not about having companies keeping a thumb up on something and not about playing some jackass.

Sorry my friends, you can continue blaming all your incapabilities towards one person - me! but said that you are not showing a very good show towards the others. Assuming I am that big ass you want to make out of me, your current behavior and demonstration don't make you look any different and you only prove that the lengthy comments:

http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=12838&comment_id=67623
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=12838&comment_id=67624
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=12838&comment_id=67625

Are valid and correct. And regarding that dummy_account asshole. I know it wasn't me and the OSN staff luckely knows that too.

Not just that, but these tricks are the common methods and dirty under the belt hitting tricks from the GNOME crowd to get rid of people. Instead of giving a constructive feedback they go back use these methods.

You people are quite poor and you should shame about that - but then I only wish and hope that my informations for the people interested might pay off one day. I don't tell them to not use GNOME but I hope they understand a bit better what's up with you people. I wrote this stuff from my own experiences made and my own experiences are that there is a big difference between KDE and GNOME not just architecture, but also culture and community.

Cheers!

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Please
by Soulbender on Fri 2nd Dec 2005 09:18 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Please"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Funny, the only one comes across as being vindicative and defensive is you.
All you keep doing is repeating the same ole spiel about how nasty and uncooperative the GNOME people are (nice generalization, btw) without providing any shred of evidence. If GNOME is indeed as bad a community as you say obviously it would have completely imploded a long time ago but it hasnt.
The only diffence between someone else saying "gnome sucks" and you saying "gnome sucks" is that you write much longer and more boring tirades.
GNOME use dirty tricks, blah blah blah, they're all attacking and not accepting feedback, blah blah blah, gnome sucks, blah blah blah, KDE rocks, blah blah blah, KDE is much better at X, blah blah blah.
Get yourself a life and stop this endless whining.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Please
by Anonymous on Fri 2nd Dec 2005 12:20 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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"Because KDE is successful, it has achieved all the stuff that GNOME is still trying to catch up with. KDE is there and even ahead of what GNOME is talking for - for years. KDE offers the applications that GNOME barely can deliver, KDE offers the solution for enterprise."

if that were true, organisations would be falling over themselves to use kde instead of picking gnome. in reality, they are all shunning kde in favour of gnome. what does that tell you?

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 21:57 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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Anonymous (IP: 130.57.22.---) on 2005-12-01 20:06:59 UTC in reply to "RE: Please"
Ali: you claim GNOME devs are insulting, namecall, not able accept criticism, yet here you are portraying all the same traits you accuse us of having.


Like everywhere and everyone in the world every community will have some rude ones in the bunch.

But James Livingston for example on the rhythmbox project has been extremely patient with those in the community posting requests for updates to patches in order to compile the program with features that we want.

The main guy behind Nautilus (Alexander Laarson maybe?) was actually polite when a badly worded subject line of mine to the mailing list caused a flame storm of my own fault I should add.

Outside of the infamous tussle with Eugenia a while back I have been very pleased with the response I have gotten from most (not all but most) of the developers on the major gnome projects.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 22:09 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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> I have gotten from most (not all but most) of the developers on the major gnome projects.

"Not all" is quite an interesting part of your reply and only confirms what I tried to explain. You can also be sure that over the past 6 years - through permanent critics and permanent harrassment - a bunch of the GNOME people learned a lesson that it doesn't help them to be rude to people.

Besides this some elements have left the project for god's sake and others got a better job and can't afford acting like an ass anymore. But I can guarantee you that there used to be times (and specially a bunch of people) that you wished all the pestilence existing on earth. But you can also be sure that there's still a lot of them amongst them.

Maybe we do have a different understanding of where 'being rude' starts and where it ends. What could be rude experience for one can be a normal behave for the other. But then I personally made the experience (maybe through misunderstanding of my person, or maybe through bad english or whatever) that a good bunch of the GNOME people are quite rude. Not just that but also the amount of shit they have caused around me as person and then widespread deserves a reaction from my side as well.

So at the end, if no one wants to believe me, then at least take my advise to be careful when it comes in terms of GNOME. Staying away from it is always better than messing around with it.

Besides that Waldo is still working on KDE the other guy probably too. But all the ones I mentioned realized that it's better to stay away from GNOME - with other words, they don't work on GNOME anymore.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 22:25 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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dear IP: 84.129.215

do you even realise that for any community effort, you get out what you put in? seeing your 'efforts' on OSNews, i'm not at all surprised that you have gotten the reaction that you claim have have fomr the gnome (or any other community for that matter). you remind me of these individuals who go through life blaming everyone else but themselves for their own shortcomings.
if i were you, i would either seek professional help from a sympathetic councillor or a psychiatrist. because you are seriously not right in the head.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 22:43 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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And I hope he goes for the medical attention before he does something crazy. I mean, all those gratuitous references to karate lessons look worrying considering mails like this one:

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2002-October/msg00059.html

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 22:50 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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hehe it sounds like Ali has a problem with being small. that can be interpreted any way you like ;) . he's obviously quite a tough guy threatening people on mailing lists.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Please
by dummy_account on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:09 UTC in reply to "Please"
dummy_account Member since:
2005-09-11

Someone ban Ali already.

I am quite upset about this place and find it embarrassing how people are treated. To set something correct. I wasn't banned from this place and still I am not as you can see here. For what reason actually ?

I had many discussions with Eugenia in the past and we came to the conclusion that most of the stuff that I keep writing is indeed right but for my personal interest I should stay out of heated conversations because it's impossible to convince everyone. So far she was right. But then this is a free place after all with the intend of people replying.

Well now coming to the point of what I write. I don't think that I have to justify myself here, nor do I need to explain why I write things and why not.

About my history, I don't think I have to justify myself about my history here. You can go back and read the stuff that I have written and I don't need to feel ashamed about it since most of the stuff written by me only reflect my very personal experiences with GNOME and only reflect my very personal opinion too. People are free to reply on it or simply ignore it.

I don't have problems with GNOME and their goal for world domination or whatever. But I have something against people wo don't play fair. You need very good knowledge about GNOME (now not the architecture) but more of the internal function of GNOME as organ to understand what's going on and what not. And I believe that the majority of the readers here don't have a gripe of knowledge what's going on. Why don't you spent some time investigating into GNOME on your own. Learn the politics and not just the desktop.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Please
by Soulbender on Fri 2nd Dec 2005 04:41 UTC in reply to "RE: Please"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"I had many discussions with Eugenia in the past and we came to the conclusion that most of the stuff that I keep writing is indeed right..."

That's like being complimented by Michael Bay on your movie directing skills.

"About my history, I don't think I have to justify myself about my history here."

Yeah, we all seen your nice posts, both here and in other places. Trust me, making yourself look like a total ass is _NOT_ a good thing.

"I don't have problems with GNOME and their goal for world domination or whatever."
Right, and the pope is protestant.

Edited 2005-12-02 04:42

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:15 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Since when osnews is a gnome only place?

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Please
by dummy_account on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:23 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Please"
dummy_account Member since:
2005-09-11

Well what do you expect from these GNOME trolls. They are paranoid and won't accept that I am not dummy_account.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:33 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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"Well what do you expect from these GNOME trolls. They are paranoid and won't accept that I am not dummy_account."

this must be the funniest thing i've seen in years! IP 84.129.215, you clot, you forgot to log out of dummy_account!!

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:50 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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You people gonna harvest the fruits for the problems you caused. And you can be sure that I will ne assured in my process to make everyone understand what's up with GNOME and their community. You people did nearly all to trash my name within the past years. Regardless for all the contributions I gave to GNOME. But then people will read this and understand that I am right. Even if they don't believe me, they will realize and become careful before helping or trusting the GNOME community. Be it that. I am off for my Karate course now.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:54 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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"You people did nearly all to trash my name within the past years."

actually, you trashed your own name. because by writing so much crap, you are your own worst enemy.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Please
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:50 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Please"
Anonymous Member since:
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Rofl.... you're pathetic

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Making GNOME suck less
by Morty on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:17 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

A rather easy solution to that one, if the OSNews please could post the name of the other accounts "dummy_account" uses plus the Ip he usually troll under. Showing everyone without doubt which clueless looser is behind, and then banning the moron.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Making GNOME suck less
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:20 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Making GNOME suck less"
Anonymous Member since:
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Thanks for the words Morty. I do feel sorry somehow but then I know it's not me. But welcome in the world of GNOME, that's how it usually works. That's GNOME! Sad isn't it?

Reply Score: 0

Stupid desktop for stupid users?
by dummy_account on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:18 UTC
dummy_account
Member since:
2005-09-11

GNOME is more targeted for the non-expert-end-users because of all this stupid simplification and their new target users. KDE luckely didn't changed their target audience that's why many people switched (and still switch) from GNOME to KDE because it offers them what they expect. A seamless consistent and integrated Desktop Environment. Sure it has it's edges and corners but all in all it's moving in the REAL right direction. That's why many people belive that GNOME is redundant these days.

When GNOME saw it's first light it was targeted for the real powerusers and should offer a free alternative to KDE (which on these days depended on QT (which now is GPL)). While GNOME stagnates because people are more busy talking about what new technology they should assimilate next, the KDE people focused on usability and disciplined programmed a really working Desktop Environment which is superior to all other commerical and F/OSS offerings.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
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DEAR IP: 84.129.215, Ali, dummy_account, or whatever your f name is:

WHY DO YO KEEP ON REFUSING TO ANSWER THE FOLLOWING QUESTION THAT I'VE POSED TO YOU ON MANY OCCASSIONS WITHOUT A REPLY:

Q: SO THAT PEOPLE KNOW WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM, WHAT WERE THE REASONS FOR YOU CHOOSING TO DEVELOP FOR GNOME RATHER THAN FOR KDE?

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Making GNOME suck less
by Morty on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:50 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, I actually wrote it before the dummy_account looser started his spamming, since you had already posted it twice in this tread. Repeating the same long posts gets annoying regardless of their validity. It's sad when valid on topic commnets get moderated down by losers, but please find another way to respond to it.

Sadly there are several sad losers on this site, but it does not help sinking to their level.

Hopefully the OSNews staff will reveal all the accounts used by dummy_account and the IP he usually troll with, identifying that particular looser at least.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: Making GNOME suck less
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 20:57 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Making GNOME suck less"
Anonymous Member since:
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> Well, I actually wrote it since you had already posted it twice in this tread. Repeating
> the same long posts gets annoying regardless of their validity. It's sad when valid on topic
> commnets get moderated down by losers, but please find another way to respond to it.

You are right, take my apologizes but it's a shame that a valid constructive correct comment which was moderated +4 in all three parts lasted a few hours and then within seconds got moderated down to -4. As you can see it was intended by some loosers to do this because they can't stand criticism. It was surely not nice but necessary to repost it.

> Sadly there are several sad losers on this site, but it does not help sinking to
> their level.

You are indeed right, but then what purpose has a news site if you are not allowed to post a valid comment or rather a criticism.

> Hopefully the OSNews staff will reveal all the accounts used by dummy_account and
> the IP he usually troll with, identifying that particular looser at least.

I contacted Eugenia about that abuse and she forwarded my request to the OSN staff. It's good to know that she's aware of the problem and it's also good to know that the OSN staff is involved and investigates into the abuse. And I do feel ok since I know that there are still people with senses outside who seem to understand the problems around GNOME. It's definately not fun anymore working on GNOME for people like those.

Thanks for the feedback.

Reply Score: 0

...
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 18:55 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Why do you keep answer to that KDE troll? just ignore him if you want to talkig with him go to #kde-promo in irc.kde.org, he is there.

Reply Score: 0

Still funny but also sad.
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 20:46 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Wow, I just came back from nearly 1.75hrs of Karate training and the insanity is still going on here. People still keeping up with the namecalling efforts even without participation of the accused ones. The GNOME community is laughable but it will pay off at the end with people leaving and more people understanding the problem. I doubt anyone wants to participate to such an highly offensive community. Linux is a community, KDE is a community, XFCE, E and nearly everything else is a community. But GNOME is commercialism and marketing.

Reply Score: 0

Paranoia
by Anonymous on Thu 1st Dec 2005 21:32 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Ali, if you keep saying that this spamming is because of the mythical "gnome community", stop that "dummy_account is not me, stop saying that" attitude. You're being a huge hypocrite. As always, I'm afraid.

Oh, and stop going to karate and consult a psychology professional. You need it much more.

Reply Score: 0

Project Goneme
by Anonymous on Fri 2nd Dec 2005 01:29 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Hey, Ali!

How's Project Goneme going? Has it killed Gnome yet?

Reply Score: 1

pathetic
by dogen on Fri 2nd Dec 2005 01:33 UTC
dogen
Member since:
2005-11-13

Gnome is my favorite desktop, but you f--kers are one sick crew.

Reply Score: 1

LMAO
by Anonymous on Fri 2nd Dec 2005 02:11 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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lmao lmao lmao lmao lmao lmao lmao
Ali got wtfbbqpwned!!!

Reply Score: 1

not even firefox
by Anonymous on Fri 2nd Dec 2005 15:34 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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The thing is that even Firefox 1.5 won't be in ubuntu for a while

Reply Score: 0