Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 18th Aug 2006 20:31 UTC, submitted by Kian Duffy
BeOS & Derivatives Haiku, the open-source BeOS replacement project, turns five years old today. Founded in August 2001 as OpenBeOS with the intention of replacing BeOS due to the lack of action by the then-ailing Be, Haiku has seen five years of change in the BeOS market but continues to progress.
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HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
by umccullough on Fri 18th Aug 2006 20:39 UTC
umccullough
Member since:
2006-01-26

5 years - has it been that long?

Looks like there will be some new excitement in the Haiku community soon, as things are changing recently!

Reply Score: 2

Happy birthday!
by ormandj on Fri 18th Aug 2006 20:43 UTC
ormandj
Member since:
2005-10-09

Congratulations Haiku project! I never thought you'd make it this long. Can't wait till you guys push 1.0 out the door! I still remember going to a BUG meeting in (Austin) I think along with Anevilyak waaaaay back when! ;)

Cheers,
David

Reply Score: 2

Happy Birthday
by TaterSalad on Fri 18th Aug 2006 20:48 UTC
TaterSalad
Member since:
2005-07-06

Happy Birthday Haiku! I can't believe its been 5 years. I would have guessed 3 at the most. Our little babies, they grow up so fast ;) Thank you for all the hardwork thus far and we look forward to celebrating many more of your birthdays.

Reply Score: 4

"Open source" desktop
by ronaldst on Fri 18th Aug 2006 21:47 UTC
ronaldst
Member since:
2005-06-29

Haiku is the best bet. More "Free" than the other guys. Not stuck in the 70ies. No major security problems. No "OSS fundies" clowns to ruin the fun. APIs are solid. Only good stuff.

Reply Score: 1

RE: "Open source" desktop
by JonathanBThompson on Fri 18th Aug 2006 21:55 UTC in reply to ""Open source" desktop"
JonathanBThompson Member since:
2006-05-26

It's not network-enabled at the moment (they're busy on writing a new network stack) so in all honesty, that's what makes it "secure" is because you can't get online!

Reality-check: Haiku, even once it is completed to release 1.0, will have as much security as Windows 95 did when it shipped: the only question will be whether or not the network applications have security holes, just like anywhere else. The BeOS API doesn't even have support for multi-user and permissions that restrict things to root, since everything runs as root (or baron, as the case may be).

So, Haiku is "Secure" as long as it isn't hooked up to a net connection, and as secure as the physical access is restricted. BeOS was never intended to be a "secure" OS and release 1.0 of Haiku will replicate that to a large degree.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: "Open source" desktop
by fepede on Fri 18th Aug 2006 22:36 UTC in reply to "RE: "Open source" desktop"
fepede Member since:
2005-11-14

The BeOS API doesn't even have support for multi-user and permissions that restrict things to root, since everything runs as root (or baron, as the case may be).

Hum, that sounds really bad.

Isn't it better to change the api now than being in trouble later ?

I realize that it would mean to redesign a lot of the system, but i think that it is worth the effort.

An OS without user separation capabilities is not to be taken in consideration nowadays.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: "Open source" desktop
by CPUGuy on Sat 19th Aug 2006 04:21 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: "Open source" desktop"
CPUGuy Member since:
2005-07-06

They are going for compatability with R5 so as to have all those apps that have already been written.

Also, the system supports mutli-user, it's just not implemented in the UI very much (not much beyond who owns my files, namely, Baron), and not in the API.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: "Open source" desktop
by mphipps on Mon 21st Aug 2006 01:10 UTC in reply to "RE: "Open source" desktop"
mphipps Member since:
2006-08-21

Johnathan -

Actually, R1 should be significantly better than Win95 for security. Win95 shipped with a bunch of services either on by default or easily turned on and very insecure (i.e. disk sharing). BeOS R5, for example, ships with all ports closed by default. We should, as well.

Unless there is a bug in the networking stack (and there probably will be, at least at first), no one should be able to remotely gain access to your machine. I certainly don't know of anyone doing so with BeOS. That's not a bad security record.

Having said that, we come to the physical access issue. I would argue that ANY OS that doesn't encrypt the hard drive doesn't have any sort of protection against physical access; if you can get the hard drive out, the machine is compromised. :-D But beyond that, with BeOS R5 and Haiku R1, yes, if you walk up to the machine and turn it on, you have root-like access. That is not unreasonable for a single user type machine. The filesystem does indeed support multiple users, with permissions. There just isn't a secure user switching mechanism.

Finally (replying to someone else), there is little in the API that would need to change to support multi-user, so no, it isn't necessary to make that change right now.

Reply Score: 1

RE: "Open source" desktop
by sbergman27 on Fri 18th Aug 2006 22:15 UTC in reply to ""Open source" desktop"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

> Haiku is the best bet. More "Free" than the other guys. Not stuck in the 70ies. No major security problems. No "OSS fundies" clowns to ruin the fun. APIs are solid. Only good stuff.


Ok. I'll bite.

Excuse me for a moment while I don my "open-minded" cap... there! :-)

OK. I'm listening

Show me what Haiku can do for me that my current OS (CentOS 4.3, aka RHEL4) can't. Show me that it can also do all of the things that I need my desktop operating system to do.

I'll definitely need a browser on the order of Firefox. Email client on the order of Thunderbird (with spam filtering!) And an office suite that handles MS formats as well as OO. I wouldn't want to give up Quake4 and Doom 3.

I definitely want 3D accelleration for my NVidia 6800GT. And I'll need to print to my Samsung 1710 laser printer which currently uses samsung's Linux GDI drivers.

I'd want package management to be clean, on the order of what I have with apt and synaptic.

I need to be able to develop with Ruby on Rails and Turbogears (a python framework). I need java for my RADRails IDE.

NFS connectivity with the rest of my network would be a plus. Being able to mount whatever remote filesystem is native to Haiku on my Linux boxes would also be OK.

Non-support for Macromedia Flash would be a *big* plus. ;-)

Oh, and I'd like the OS to be *fun*. :-)

I've not followed Haiku, so I don't know, for sure, what Haiku can do and what it can't.

I do know that to be the "best bet", Haiku is going to have to be able to answer "yes, we can do that" to most of these kinds of questions.

A Windows or Mac user might have slightly different questions. But they'd have the same kinds of questions as I do.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: "Open source" desktop
by Big Al on Fri 18th Aug 2006 22:36 UTC in reply to "RE: "Open source" desktop"
Big Al Member since:
2005-06-29

A "bet" involves the future, not the present. I believe the original comment was saying that Haiku has the best possible future for the open source operating systems out there. You're comparing it with present solutions which is not what (I believe) he was saying.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: "Open source" desktop
by sbergman27 on Fri 18th Aug 2006 22:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: "Open source" desktop"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

I'm not really comparing it to anything. I'm asking questions about how good a fit it would be for my needs.

Perhaps, though, I should be asking *when* it will likely be able to do these things.

Oh, and based on other posts in this thread, I'll add "solid security model" to my list of must-haves. I was just taking that as a given before.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: "Open source" desktop
by umccullough on Fri 18th Aug 2006 22:53 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: "Open source" desktop"
umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

>Perhaps, though, I should be asking *when* it will likely be able to do these things.

Now, that's the hard part... being a mostly-volunteer-based project, it really can't be defined.

>Oh, and based on other posts in this thread, I'll add "solid security model" to my list of must-haves. I was just taking that as a given before.

Hrm - well that's scheduled for Haiku R2, Haiku R1 will be mostly a milestone - and will not really have multi-user support - and will very much be like Mac OS Classic, or Windows 9x in that regard.

Edited 2006-08-18 22:57

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: "Open source" desktop
by umccullough on Fri 18th Aug 2006 22:46 UTC in reply to "RE: "Open source" desktop"
umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

Are you joking? oh..i see you've not followed Haiku ;)

>I'll definitely need a browser on the order of Firefox.

Yes, that will be a reality: http://flickr.com/photos/umccullough/129587567

>Email client on the order of Thunderbird (with spam filtering!)

The natively written mail client is probably going to ship with Haiku - but there's also Thunderbird if needed.

>And an office suite that handles MS formats as well as OO.

OO.o - evil evil - there are people still interested in porting this, I suspect it will happen, but may be a while.

>I wouldn't want to give up Quake4 and Doom 3.

If they're ported, you won't have to ;) - Haiku has already been shown to run QIII: http://flickr.com/photos/johndrinkwater/144108950/

>I definitely want 3D accelleration for my NVidia 6800GT.

I believe BeOS/Haiku is the only OS with an open-source 3d nVidia driver as advanced as it is. It's certainly not the level of the closed-source DRI-based drivers, but what can you expect without commercial support?

>And I'll need to print to my Samsung 1710 laser printer which currently uses samsung's Linux GDI drivers.

I know nothing about this - but the printer driver support in Haiku is pretty modular.

>I'd want package management to be clean, on the order of what I have with apt and synaptic.

Who needs "package management"? This won't be Linux.

>I need to be able to develop with Ruby on Rails and Turbogears (a python framework).

Ruby and Python already exist for BeOS/Haiku

>I need java for my RADRails IDE.

Unfortunately, the Java port is on hold - but should resume again when Haiku comes to fruition.

>NFS connectivity with the rest of my network would be a plus. Being able to mount whatever remote filesystem is native to Haiku on my Linux boxes would also be OK.

Haiku has modular filesystem support. If someone writes a new filesystem add-on, Haiku can use it. I suspect NFS, ext2/3, etc. will come about in time. If someone takes the OpenBFS code and ports it to Linux,then you could read/write BFS also!

>Non-support for Macromedia Flash would be a *big* plus. ;-)

Non-support? I'm pretty sure that already exists (as in, no support for Flash).

>Oh, and I'd like the OS to be *fun*. :-)

YES!

>I do know that to be the "best bet", Haiku is going to have to be able to answer "yes, we can do that" to most of these kinds of questions.

I suspect the answer to most of your questions is "Yes we can do that" and in several cases: "Yes we already do that"

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: "Open source" desktop
by sbergman27 on Fri 18th Aug 2006 23:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: "Open source" desktop"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

OK So as of right now, the answers to my questions would be:

Firefox: Yes.
Thunderbird: Yes.
OpenOffice: No.
Quake4, Doom3: No.
Nvidia 3d: Probably not up to what I would need?
Printer: Probably no.
Package management: No. (How can an OS do without package management?!)
Ruby on Rails/Turbogears: Probably.
Java: No.
Network filesystem: No.
Flash: No. (And let's hope it stays that way!)
Fun: YES!
Security: No.

Is that a reasonable summation?

Edited 2006-08-18 23:10

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: "Open source" desktop
by umccullough on Fri 18th Aug 2006 23:15 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: "Open source" desktop"
umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

Sure - sounds reasonable. But right now Haiku is also pre-alpha - so hey - whatever ;)

But please explain to me the exact purpose of "package management" ? - i'm not sure I follow how that's a requirement for an OS.

I'm pretty sure when I unzip an app and it "just runs" - that it is very much sufficient to get the job done.

Actually, please don't answer this - I think i see where this discussion is going, and I suspect it's pointless to even discuss at this point for Haiku.

Edited 2006-08-18 23:20

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: "Open source" desktop
by sbergman27 on Fri 18th Aug 2006 23:32 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: "Open source" desktop"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

>I'm pretty sure when I unzip an app and it "just runs" - that it is very much sufficient to get the job done.

Hey, if it works it works. That strategy has worked, and worked well, for Slackware users for many years, even without my blessing. :-)

Edited 2006-08-18 23:33

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: "Open source" desktop
by Ronald Vos on Sat 19th Aug 2006 10:35 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: "Open source" desktop"
Ronald Vos Member since:
2005-07-06

Responses in italics:

Firefox: Yes.
Thunderbird: Yes.
OpenOffice: No.
Quake4, Doom3: No.
-->You're talking proprietary software, and for that the rare (2 out of 4?) exceptions of high-end games that have been ported to both Windows and Linux. You might as well go the 'Does it have Photoshop?'-route; Mac users would like that.
Nvidia 3d: Probably not up to what I would need? -->if the most advanced OSS version doesn't cut it...then no? I don't know why you'd want more than 30 FPS with your Quake ports though
Printer: Probably no.
Package management: No. (How can an OS do without package management?!)
-->Can you download binary packages of software you come across on the internet for Linux, regardless of version you're running? Actually, Haiku/BeOS has www.bebits.com, which beats most package managers hands down. Granted, for the dead links you'll have to crossreference to www.bezip.de but most Linux package managers lack the overview+interface Bebits has. A lot of package managers still have problems with dependencies still, Haiku/BeOS doesn't.
Ruby on Rails/Turbogears: Probably. -->If turbogears consists of interpreted ruby/python, you might get lucky ;)
Java: No. -->Actually, it can't be ported atm because of a number of lacking features. They're hoping to implement those for RC2. But yeah, no Java.
Network filesystem: No. -->actually, yes! http://www.bebits.com/app/1021
Flash: No. (And let's hope it stays that way!) -->does Flash 4.1015 count? ;-)
Fun: YES! -->To be honest, I'd say this is where Haiku will succeed where Linux didn't, but that's just my trolly opinion.
Security: No. [i]-->security through obscurity! There are less exploits/virusses known for BeOS than Linux :-)

[i]Edited 2006-08-19 10:38

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: "Open source" desktop
by axeld on Sat 19th Aug 2006 12:06 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: "Open source" desktop"
axeld Member since:
2005-07-07

Just to set some things straight:
> Java: No. -->Actually, it can't be ported atm
> because of a number of lacking features. They're
> hoping to implement those for RC2. But yeah, no Java.

Java will run on R1. The port is on hold because of problems with BeOS, it has nothing to do with Haiku. In fact, Java (1.4.2) runs on BeOS R5 as well, it's just not stable in certain situations, and hasn't been released to the public yet because of that and a few other remaining issues (that would prevent it from getting Sun's blessing).

Also, while we follow the POSIX security model, you usually run everything as root. The API as-is will work fine in a multi-user environment, too, even though some (binary and source compatible) additions will be needed to make it work nice. Some apps may also need to be tweaked to run nicely (or, in some cases, at all), but if you follow the public existing API now and use it, you won't run into troubles.

Haiku R1 won't be a secure OS, but I'd be surprised if someone writes a virus for it :-)
Our first release is not really thought for a mass market, it's not a Windows killer or anything like that. And it probably won't fulfill some of the requirements you have today -- but this will certainly be addressed and changed in the future.
We have lots of plans with further releases, but we also need a clean and stable foundation we can build upon.

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: "Open source" desktop
by sbergman27 on Sat 19th Aug 2006 17:08 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: "Open source" desktop"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

Actually, *all* Id Software games from Wolfenstein 3D, through the original Doom series, through the Quake series, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Doom3, Quake4, Unreal, Unreal Tournament series, Rune, and quite a number of other well known titles have Linux versions. I say Linux *versions* and not *ports*, since, in Id's case at least, the games are written in a portable style. Just plug in a renderer for the OS in question and you have a version (not a port) for it.

Actually, From Quake1 on, all the Id games have gotten official Linux versions supported by Id and released not to long after the Windows version went gold. The original Doom was ported by an Id employee years before the engine went open source, but I can't remember how official that was considered at the time.

Sorry to spend so much time on this point, but it's a common misconception about Linux that I try to address when appropriate. I have not wanted for games under linux since Zoid Kirsch released squake in 1996. And I do tend to go for the high end FPS's.

As to frame rate, I like to play at 1600x1200, 4x gaussian FSAA with a high level of anisotropic filtering, and at high or ultra quality. Even with the latest nvidia drivers on a 6800GT and an AMD64 4000+, I find myself needing a little more oomph to keep the frame rate acceptable. So no, non-optimal drivers would not be good enough.

On package management, I rarely install from random sites. Almost without exception, I find what I need in a well known repo. What is a "dependency problem", btw?

Ruby on Rails, so far as I know, is pure Ruby. Turbogears, so far as I know is pure Python. So I'm hopeful on this one.

On the remote filesystem, an nfsv2 *client* is half the solutution. But how does that fit with other posts here that indicate that Haiku doesn't have tcp/ip right now?

I have been having great fun with Linux, and Unix before it, since 1988. I can believe that Haiku is fun, as well.

And this really brings me to my real message.

Aside from having a genuine, if casual, interest in the current status and capabilities of Haiku, my original response was actually to ronaldst's thread starter:

"""Haiku is the best bet. More "Free" than the other guys. Not stuck in the 70ies. No major security problems. No "OSS fundies" clowns to ruin the fun. APIs are solid. Only good stuff."""

Note how it's not enough to simply praise Haiku. He feels the need to attack other OSes and their users.

Guys, have fun with your OS of choice, whatever it might be. I'm happy for you. But if you feel the need to start gratuitously attacking other OSes and the people who like and use them... don't. Especially when your own favored OS has some substantial housecleaning to do, itself.

Or, to put it more succinctly, people who live in glass houses had best not throw stones.

Going in to this, I really did not know for sure what the answers to my questions would be. But I had a pretty good idea that the answer would be "no" to a good portion of them.

To its credit, Haiku actually did better on them than I was expecting.

I wish the developers and fans all the best.

Edited 2006-08-19 17:12

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: "Open source" desktop
by axeld on Sat 19th Aug 2006 17:52 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: "Open source" desktop"
axeld Member since:
2005-07-07

> On the remote filesystem, an nfsv2 *client* is half
> the solutution. But how does that fit with other
> posts here that indicate that Haiku doesn't have
> tcp/ip right now?

We had a TCP/IP implementation - it was just done really badly. We're currently in the process of rewriting it, and that's why we don't have one now (there was no point in keeping the old version alive, as we haven't released anything yet).

A NFS client exists for BeOS already, but will have to be ported; a server was also available once, but I don't remember if it was an open source version (but that one could run unchanged, as only the file system API changed).

But NFS is not the primary choice for Haiku, as Haiku without attribute and indexing support is only an inferior solution. So while we have it available for compatibility and data exchange, Haiku will also include its own network file system (which already works on BeOS to some extent, but hasn't been released yet, either).

> Guys, have fun with your OS of choice, whatever it
> might be. I'm happy for you. But if you feel the
> need to start gratuitously attacking other OSes and
> the people who like and use them... don't.

Definitely.

> Especially when your own favored OS has some
> substantial housecleaning to do, itself.

And even if not, there is no reason to do it.
Besides, we haven't even released an alpha version yet; and while you could use Haiku already if you really wanted to, you definitely wouldn't like the experience if you had to live with it today :-)

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: "Open source" desktop
by ronaldst on Sun 20th Aug 2006 03:05 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: "Open source" desktop"
ronaldst Member since:
2005-06-29

Note how it's not enough to simply praise Haiku. He feels the need to attack other OSes and their users.

I never mentionned Linux nor the BSDs. I pointed at a terrible problem in the industry.

Have a nice day. ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: "Open source" desktop
by sbergman27 on Sun 20th Aug 2006 03:41 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: "Open source" desktop"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

Apologies, of course, if I misinterpreted your statements.

As an OSS and Linux fan, myself, I can kind of understand what you mean about the "OSS fundies" spoiling the fun. (The more extreme FSers have been getting on my nerves a bit as of late. ;-)

But in what way is the industry "stuck in the 70's"?

There is definitely something to be said for an evolutionary approach, as opposed to a revolutionary one. In fact, it seems to me, based upon what I have read in this thread, that the Haiku developers believe in an evolutionary approach: First achieve r5 compatibility, and then build on that.

At any rate, I've learned more about the state of Haiku than I would have otherwise.

Reply Score: 1

1... 2... 3... 4...
by JrezIN on Sat 19th Aug 2006 13:01 UTC
JrezIN
Member since:
2005-06-29

What a curious newsid for the haikunews' post... =D

Reply Score: 1

Do people want it ?
by Eric Martin on Sat 19th Aug 2006 17:36 UTC
Eric Martin
Member since:
2005-11-11

Is there an advantage to owning this ?

There is no emphasis on security !

Not based on xwindows so your hardware wont work unless it's new.

I don't know.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Do people want it ?
by MYOB on Sat 19th Aug 2006 23:24 UTC in reply to "Do people want it ?"
MYOB Member since:
2005-06-29

Not based on xwindows so your hardware wont work unless it's new.

So the fact that Haiku already supports antique video chipsets such as Tseng Labs ET-series, Cirrus Logic, ATi Rage, nVidia Riva, and 3dfx hardware doesn't count? Indeed, because its not using X11, you're more likely to have graphics cards NOT work because they're new.

Reply Score: 1

Hey Axel...
by Luposian on Sat 19th Aug 2006 18:28 UTC
Luposian
Member since:
2005-07-27

Why can't I build Haiku on my system? The latest build over at Haiku. is from Aug. 5th. It was working fine and then suddenly (*CRUNCH*) I get a bunch of "skipped... lack of [whatever].so" items and it never builds the haiku.image file in the end. I tried deleting the whole /trunk directory (gah! That takes FOR-EVER!) and downloading/building everything fresh... same problem.

Whazzup?

Luposian

Reply Score: 1

RE: Hey Axel...
by umccullough on Sat 19th Aug 2006 18:45 UTC in reply to "Hey Axel..."
umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

Luposian:

Best head to #haiku - several of us have discussed recent problems building Haiku - and I myself ran into some similar problems last night. OSNews comments are most certainly not the right place for that type of conversation ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Hey Axel...
by axeld on Sat 19th Aug 2006 19:11 UTC in reply to "Hey Axel..."
axeld Member since:
2005-07-07

Since we've merged the networking branch, you need to have the latest GCC release (on BeBits or from our repository) to compile Haiku.
While you're at it, you should also update jam, as that has also seen some changes.

Reply Score: 1

five years old
by spikeb on Sun 20th Aug 2006 07:23 UTC
spikeb
Member since:
2006-01-18

and still not very usable ;)

Flamebait aside, happy birthday haiku - I am enjoying your life.

Reply Score: 1

Why better than linux
by adinas on Sun 20th Aug 2006 09:37 UTC
adinas
Member since:
2005-08-17

I'd really prefer if a Be Os derivative were the “popular OS” and not Linux. Linux is such a mess. One group develops the kernel, another the GUI (a few GUI’s actually) From a developer stand point it is a nightmare. And installation is horrendous. Package managers aren’t a reason to move to Linux, package managers are a necessity in Linux, without them Linux is simply impossible to use. Be Os has one standard APi from kernel to GUI (Like Windows) and installation is simply unzipping a downloaded file. No dependencies, no recompiling the kernel.

Reply Score: 1

Good progress
by bsharitt on Sun 20th Aug 2006 12:38 UTC
bsharitt
Member since:
2005-07-07

I just booted up Haiku for the first time, and I wasn't aware they were that far along. They seem to be around where ReactOS is in terms of completion of a clone.

Reply Score: 1