Linked by Eugenia Loli on Tue 27th Feb 2007 09:53 UTC, submitted by falko
Mandriva, Mandrake, Lycoris "With the release of Microsoft's new Windows operating system (Vista), more and more people are looking for alternatives to Windows for various reasons. This tutorial is the second in a series of articles where I will show people who are willing to switch to Linux how they can set up a Linux desktop (Mandriva Free 2007 in this article) that fully replaces their Windows desktop, i.e. that has all software that people need to do the things they do on their Windows desktops. The advantages are clear: you get a secure system without DRM restrictions, and the best thing is: all software comes free of charge."
Order by: Score:
This can only be good
by Budd on Tue 27th Feb 2007 11:13 UTC
Budd
Member since:
2005-07-08

If this kind of articles will get more publicity then maybe Linux will get more attention from the regular users. Now I know that corporate policy dictates rate of adoption of a specific OS, but not only regular users read this kind of articles.
That been said, I believe the same thing can be done with Ubuntu or Fedora Core. I have tried them both and definitely, you can skip Windows. That if you are not in the gaming. If you are, then, well sorry. You will have to stick with Cedega or some other software to play the "latest".

Reply Score: 3

RE: This can only be good
by netpython on Tue 27th Feb 2007 11:22 UTC in reply to "This can only be good"
netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

That if you are not in the gaming. If you are, then, well sorry. You will have to stick with Cedega or some other software to play the "latest".

Far Cry for example runs smoother on my gentoo 2.6.20 cedega amd64 box than native under windows XP.

Reply Score: 2

RE: This can only be good
by tadorna on Tue 27th Feb 2007 14:30 UTC in reply to "This can only be good"
tadorna Member since:
2007-02-27

The same author has written a similar guide for Fedora Core too:

http://www.howtoforge.com/the_perfect_desktop_fedora_core6

Reply Score: 1

RE: This can only be good
by wannabe geek on Tue 27th Feb 2007 14:38 UTC in reply to "This can only be good"
wannabe geek Member since:
2006-09-27

As a GNU/Linux user, I can't but agree that you can trash Windows for all your personal stuff (what you do in your spare time, aside from work or study). However, I object to the "everything except games" argument, on four accounts:

1) There ARE awesome linux games. For instance, try Nexuiz (a quake-like 1st person shooter) or GL-117 (a flight simulator).

2) Big gamers tend to use gaming consoles instead of the PC.

3) As you said, Wine and derivatives like Cedega are helping to run Windows games on Linux.

4)Last but not least: Games are NOT the main problem: The problem is proprietary Windows programs people are OBLIGUED to use for study or work. For instance, these are some of the "games" I need: MS Office (of course), LabView, Matlab (with the Simulink plugin), Visual Studio and minor, obscure programs like EdtRapid,Virtual Robot Simulator, Scorbase,...

I know, not everyone needs these programs, but other people need other Windows programs for their studies or work.

Some of them are can be used with Wine, but there are no guarantees, and it can be very painful. I do use openOffice instead of MS Office, but when your teacher/boss REQUIRES a very specific MS WORD style for a standard essay/project, OOo is no use.

Some of these programs do have a linux version, but they are awfully expensive. I can tell you first-hand that many teachers in my university *expect* students to get illegal (so-called "pirated") copies of these programs (since the demo versions are terribly crippled and usually expire after 30 days).

Now, installing a "pirated" copy of a program is IMO, safer in Windows, because there are lots of antivirus programs to scan them first. In Linux, it is assumed that when you install a program, you trust it, and there are very few antivirus programs (there's rkhunter and the likes, but people don't seem to take them seriously, as they usually download FOSS programs from the repos).

That's why I'm pretty much stuck with dual-booting. I've tried installing Windows under qemu to at least make it less painful (a virus can't access my hardware, and I can just run Win XP in a window, instead of letting it take over my PC), but it's tricky because the "safe" way to get the data from this virtual Windows is to setup a virtual network with Samba, and I coudn't make it work as of yet :/

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: This can only be good
by archiesteel on Tue 27th Feb 2007 14:52 UTC in reply to "RE: This can only be good"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

That's why I'm pretty much stuck with dual-booting.

Just so you know, you can setup a VMWare virtual machine that uses your physical Windows hard drive, to avoid having to dual-boot. It's a bit more complicated to setup, but once it works it does wonder.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: This can only be good
by wannabe geek on Tue 27th Feb 2007 15:56 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: This can only be good"
wannabe geek Member since:
2006-09-27

Hmm, IIRC, VMWare Player is free (beer), but you need VMWare Workstation to setup a virtual machine, which is rather expensive (please correct me otherwise). But thanks for the tip ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: This can only be good
by Messere on Tue 27th Feb 2007 17:26 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: This can only be good"
Messere Member since:
2006-10-12

you need VMWare Workstation to setup a virtual machine, which is rather expensive (please correct me otherwise)

You're correct, but there's also VMWare Server which is as free as Player but can create virtual machines. You can also convert Windows partition from some other computer into VMWare image - there's (also free) converter for this.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: This can only be good
by raver31 on Tue 27th Feb 2007 17:40 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: This can only be good"
raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

Incorrect about needing server.
You can download Qemu, and create a vmdk disk image with that, then use vmware player to install your OS of choice.

you will also need to edit a text file with a vmx extension.

so for example...

qemu-img create -f vmdk windowsxppro.vmdk 12G

would create a 12gb drive for windows....

then create an empty file called windows.vmx

paste this into it...


config.version = "8"
virtualHW.version = "3"
ide0:0.present = "TRUE"
ide0:0.filename = "windowsxppro.vmdk"
memsize = "256"
MemAllowAutoScaleDown = "FALSE"
ide1:0.present = "TRUE"
ide1:0.fileName = "auto detect"
ide1:0.deviceType = "cdrom-raw"
ide1:0.autodetect = "TRUE"
floppy0.present = "FALSE"
ethernet0.present = "TRUE"
usb.present = "TRUE"
sound.present = "TRUE"
sound.virtualDev = "es1371"
displayName = "Windows XP Pro"
guestOS = "winXPPro"
nvram = "windowsxppro.nvram"
MemTrimRate = "-1"

ide0:0.redo = ""
ethernet0.addressType = "generated"
uuid.location = "56 4d 5c cc 3d 4a 43 29-55 89 5c 28 1e 7e 06 58"
uuid.bios = "56 4d 5c cc 3d 4a 43 29-55 89 5c 28 1e 7e 06 58"
ethernet0.generatedAddress = "00:0c:29:7e:06:58"
ethernet0.generatedAddressOffset = "0"

tools.syncTime = "TRUE"
ide1:0.startConnected = "TRUE"

uuid.action = "create"

checkpoint.vmState = ""




this will create the settings for the virtual machine, 256mb ram, cdrom, ethernet etc...

then install vmwayer player, you might need to make vmware player open vmx files...

once this is sorted, just double-click windows.vmx and your will be prompted to insert your windows cd for it to install...

simple.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: This can only be good
by aesiamun on Tue 27th Feb 2007 18:03 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: This can only be good"
aesiamun Member since:
2005-06-29

Or you can install server which is free and doesn't require two products to get a stupid image created.

Where did the uuid come from? How do you use your existing windows installation on your hard drive instead of in this new image?

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: This can only be good
by raver31 on Tue 27th Feb 2007 18:19 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: This can only be good"
raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

The uuid, hmm, that part should not have been pasted, as it was for me...

I use a load of virtual machines, and generated uuids for them all, I do not want one conflicting with another....

Now, your other points, you cannot use you existing installation as in essence, you have created a whole new machine, that is the point of a "virtual machine".

Also server is not free, you only get licenses for 45 days. After that you need a new license. This is repeated ad nausium, so the free server cannot be used for a vm that needs a lot of uptime.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: This can only be good
by AdamW on Tue 27th Feb 2007 17:40 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: This can only be good"
AdamW Member since:
2005-07-06

...and Workstation 6 is in free beta ATM, and you can actually create VMware machines with qemu-img and a text editor.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: This can only be good
by alex.loula on Tue 27th Feb 2007 15:22 UTC in reply to "RE: This can only be good"
alex.loula Member since:
2006-07-19

LabVIEW runs well on GNU/Linux. I ported some GPIB control applications from Windows to Linux without any problems. I know there are no data acquisition drivers to run LabVIEW on Linux yet, but if you don't need to control any kind of DAQ interfaces, you can go ahead.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: This can only be good
by wannabe geek on Tue 27th Feb 2007 15:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: This can only be good"
wannabe geek Member since:
2006-09-27

"LabVIEW runs well on GNU/Linux. I ported some GPIB control applications from Windows to Linux without any problems. I know there are no data acquisition drivers to run LabVIEW on Linux yet, but if you don't need to control any kind of DAQ interfaces, you can go ahead."

It was for a subject called "Data acquisition and industrial sensors", so it was DAQs all the time ;)
Anyway, thanks for the tip ;)

Reply Score: 1

msec
by netpython on Tue 27th Feb 2007 11:16 UTC
netpython
Member since:
2005-07-06

Minor point that struck me is the absence of msec setup via the security control panel.During system setup you are presented with the choice of overal system security but after the initial install theres no chance of setting it to a higher or lower level.

This is however not relevant for the user friendly and complete article that will benefit a lot of users who want to give Mandriva a try.In addition i don't see why they wouldn't.

Reply Score: 2

RE: msec
by lezard on Tue 27th Feb 2007 11:43 UTC in reply to "msec"
lezard Member since:
2005-10-11

In the control center, you can configure everything you want about msec under the security tab. I can't remember if you can choose a predefined setup in it, but the details are available.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: msec
by netpython on Tue 27th Feb 2007 11:49 UTC in reply to "RE: msec"
netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

You can setup the firewall but not the overall system security choosen during initial install.Once choosen paranoid thereis no direct way of setting it to a lower level.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: msec
by lezard on Tue 27th Feb 2007 15:03 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: msec"
lezard Member since:
2005-10-11

I confirm that I was right ;)
Here is all the doc (in French):
http://club.mandriva.com/xwiki/bin/view/KB/SecureSmsec?interfacelan...
The English one is not up-to-date at all, unfortunately.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: msec
by SReilly on Tue 27th Feb 2007 15:10 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: msec"
SReilly Member since:
2006-12-28

There is a direct way, but only via the CLI (as far as I know). As root, run msec X (where X is a number between 0 and 5) to set msec to the security level you want.

There is a description of the arguments msec takes as well as a more in depth explanation at:
http://www.linode.com/wiki/index.php/Msec_Howto

I do agree that it's not easy and definitly not for newbies.

Reply Score: 2

Wow, what a great article!
by Moochman on Tue 27th Feb 2007 12:36 UTC
Moochman
Member since:
2005-07-06

This article really and truly contains everything a beginner needs to get a full Mandriva desktop up and running.

It almost makes me want to try Mandriva again. It's just that the last few times I tried it (versions 7, 8 and 9 I think), I always ran into problems with urpmi--endless dependency loops, crashes, and apps refusing to start, if I recall. Admittedly, I installed a lot of stuff from non-standard repos like the Penguin Liberation Front, but that's exactly what this article recommends.

Meanwhile, I've never experienced these kinds of problems in Suse or Ubuntu, even when I've installed stuff from random sources. Other problems, sure, but none quite so severe.

Maybe urpmi has improved though.... Anyone care to share their experiences?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Wow, what a great article!
by imapi on Tue 27th Feb 2007 13:03 UTC in reply to "Wow, what a great article!"
imapi Member since:
2005-07-06

:D then I encourage you to try ;) and I'm sure you will be surprised. I'm a long time mandriva user (since 8.0) and 2007 is the best so far.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Wow, what a great article!
by alcibiades on Tue 27th Feb 2007 13:14 UTC in reply to "Wow, what a great article!"
alcibiades Member since:
2005-10-12

"Anyone care to share their experiences?"

2007 was, most regretfully, what took me off Mandriva/Mandrake. I tried installing not this one, but the non-free version on two distinct machines, one totally clean install. From DVD. At the end of it, thrashing around for a couple of days, I had two machines that wouldn't boot properly. So I went to Debian, which probably ought to have done a long time ago, and thanked Heaven for having thought to experiment on my own machines before letting it loose on anyone elses.

Debian Etch is just fine, and particularly nice on laptop. More stable than Fedora, which is what I tried first on the laptop in going away from Mandriva.

Probably for new users PCLinux is going to have all the advantages of Mandriva and none of the disadvantages. On older machines Zenwalk, and on really really old ones Fluxbuntu or Puppy.

Other people have had much better experiences, but this was mine. I wouldn't after that turn a new user loose on Mandriva.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Wow, what a great article!
by Wemgadge on Tue 27th Feb 2007 22:56 UTC in reply to "Wow, what a great article!"
Wemgadge Member since:
2005-07-02

Well, PLF has come a long way. At this point I trust the PLF repos as much as the MDV ones. And as stated in the article, if I'm not sure which version of a program I should pick, I choose the MDV version. When the other 3rd party Repos were active (Texstar and Thacs for example) it was a lot easier to bork your system. The centralizing of the repositories and the increase in size of the contribs repo have made URPMI much less likely to encounter a dependecy loop.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Wow, what a great article!
by opkool on Tue 27th Feb 2007 23:03 UTC in reply to "Wow, what a great article!"
opkool Member since:
2006-02-13

urpmi has improved quite a bit since 8.x.

The best thing is that you can now download a Live CD and try MDV 2007 without installing anything.

And you have options! {KDE or Gnome}-live CD, {with or without}-proprietary software (nvidia drivers, etc)

IMHO Mandriva 2007 is pretty darn good, and it has removed Windows from my PC. And pretty soon, 2007.1 will show up. Can't wait!

Peace!

Reply Score: 3

RE: Wow, what a great article!
by DaBigEnchilada on Tue 27th Feb 2007 23:19 UTC in reply to "Wow, what a great article!"
DaBigEnchilada Member since:
2006-01-10

My last Mandriva distro was 2006. This is the first time in the past 5 years I haven't been running Mandrake/iva on my desktop (I recently switched to Gentoo), but let me just say it wasn't because I didn't like Mandriva; I just wanted to try something new.

I have had very positive experiences with urpmi. I would say that it's slow; apt-get seems much, much faster. But in terms of broken dependencies and whatnot, I've had very similar experiences with every distro I've tried (I'm running Ubuntu on my laptop, and now Gentoo on my desktop), and they all have dependency problems from time to time.

I still feel that Mandriva is the most polished linux desktop I've worked with, and has by *far* the best graphical installer. I would recommend it to anyone looking to try linux, and especially to all the "Mandriva sucks" trolls that seem to hang out on OSNews.

Reply Score: 2

Not quite there
by davyc on Tue 27th Feb 2007 12:45 UTC
davyc
Member since:
2006-07-20

Until such time as the big guns like Photoshop, Dreamweaver, MS Office etc are ported then Linux remains irrelevant or a pleasant novelty for many users. The Gimp will never replace Photoshop for professionals and likewise Dreamweaver way outguns its alternatives here. MS Office is also firmly entrenched.

Yes you can run them under VMware but, frankly, why bother? Most people have Windows already on their machines and have little impetus to change. At the end of the day it's an OS and if you can run the progs you need then the underlying OS is in many ways irrelevant. It's all about the application software for most people.

Having said that Linux is certainly making strides and for Joe Average, as long as he can surf, write a letter and e-mail, he's happy. But then, he's also highly unlikely to be reading this article :o)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Not quite there
by Kroc on Tue 27th Feb 2007 12:56 UTC in reply to "Not quite there"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

"Until such time as the big guns like Photoshop, Dreamweaver, MS Office etc are ported then Linux remains irrelevant or a pleasant novelty for many users."

Many, but not most. Have you thought of the millions of corporate desktops that don't need Photoshop?

Dreamweaver? Only half baked web designers use DW. Anybody serious about web development will be using a proper text editor on Linux or TextMate on Mac. DW is only one step above using FrontPage for the same task.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Not quite there
by davyc on Tue 27th Feb 2007 15:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Not quite there"
davyc Member since:
2006-07-20

Who modded you up for the dumbass comment "real men use text editors"? Man I didn't realise there were still guys out there with the outmoded idea that "real men" do everything the hard way. Grow up and use the tools that get the job done fastest.

Obviously you're not a web designer and certainly don't know any. I'm a web developer and all the designers I know use Dreamweaver for their layout. Funny that Adobe saw fit to buy it if it's so crap and even more bizarre that it sells by the bucket load.

I'm sure you think being an uber geek and coding everythin in a text editor will get you a girl but honestly, it won't. No-one except little geeky boys would be impressed by that. Of course all those devs out there using dev environments obviously aren't real men either :o)

edit: btw you seem to think design and development are the same. These are seperated out in any decent company

Edited 2007-02-27 15:50

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Not quite there
by Kroc on Tue 27th Feb 2007 16:07 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Not quite there"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

You could not possibly be more wrong if you had tried.

"Grow up and use the tools that get the job done fastest."
I'm 23 and TextMate is the tool that gets my job done.

"Obviously you're not a web designer and certainly don't know any."
I'm a professional web designer, responsible for several companies in the UK. Most of my friends are web designers and programmers.

"I'm a web developer and all the designers I know use Dreamweaver for their layout."
Your friends are amateurs.

"I'm sure you think being an uber geek and coding everythin in a text editor will get you a girl but honestly, it won't."
No, I socialise to do that.

Clearly, you do not know about web standards, validation, tableless design and semantic markup - proper web design, not your amateur toy you call Dreamweaver. It's a waste of breath trying to explain to you why it's faster to develop in a text editor, the short of it is that I have a great deal more experience and knowledge about web design than yourself.

Reply Score: 4

v RE[4]: Not quite there
by davyc on Tue 27th Feb 2007 19:27 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Not quite there"
RE[5]: Not quite there
by Adam S on Tue 27th Feb 2007 19:44 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Not quite there"
Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

davyc - you're REALLY treading the line. This forum is not for attacking other OSNews readers. Please cut it out.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Not quite there
by davyc on Tue 27th Feb 2007 19:57 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Not quite there"
davyc Member since:
2006-07-20

Well the kiddy started it with his inflamatory unfounded and frankly ludicrous remarks, so I retorted. His claims on his expertise are laughable after looking at his site's and achievments. I'll let anyone who is interested check his "work" out and judge for themselves. But if he wants to be a big shot in his own little world then who am I to burst his bubble. I humbly apologise to the populace at large and of course to junior.

One last shot, anyone who writes "Some pages may not validate due to visitor-added comments" was never a developer. Ok now you can ban me :o)

Reply Score: 4

RE[7]: Not quite there
by Adam S on Tue 27th Feb 2007 20:02 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Not quite there"
Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

Well the kiddy started it with his inflamatory unfounded and frankly ludicrous remarks, so I retorted.


Right, and therein lies the violation. Now do us all a favor and shut up, or we will suspend your account.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Not quite there
by Kroc on Tue 27th Feb 2007 19:56 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Not quite there"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

Years != Maturity.

Reply Score: 2

v RE[6]: Not quite there
by davyc on Tue 27th Feb 2007 19:59 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Not quite there"
RE[3]: Not quite there
by Jon Dough on Tue 27th Feb 2007 21:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Not quite there"
Jon Dough Member since:
2005-11-30

...use the tools that get the job done fastest.

Amen to that. I bumped you up from a -2 to a -1; I'd mod you up to a +5 if I could.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Not quite there
by StephenBeDoper on Tue 27th Feb 2007 18:31 UTC in reply to "RE: Not quite there"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

Dreamweaver? Only half baked web designers use DW. Anybody serious about web development will be using a proper text editor on Linux or TextMate on Mac.

What is that assertion based on? Off the top of my head, I could personally name at least half a dozen professional web designers/developers who primarily use Dreamweaver. And it's not that they can't code by hand, most DW users I've seen in a professional setting split the window between the code view and the WYSIWIG view (it does have the ability to open files in an external editor as well).

The problem with Dreamweaver - or indeed, any WYSIWIG tool - are the so-called developers who don't know anything beyond the use of Dreamweaver. But for competent developers who already understand web design and don't use it as a substitute for proper coding abilities, it can be quite a useful tool.

DW is only one step above using FrontPage for the same task.

They're not even close. The code they produce is one reason - DW isn't stellar, but it's not hideous. Most of the code I've seen from FrontPage is an ugly VBScript-laden, IE-only mess. Not as bad as the HTML Word produces, but close.

Reason number two: there is no such thing as "Dreamweaver Extensions." FP Extensions are number 2 on the list of technologies I would prefer to never, ever have to support again (number 1 being MS SQL).

FrontPage is only good for one thing: situations where you have no choice but to make changes to a website that someone else was foolish enough to create using FrontPage.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Not quite there
by Windows Sucks on Tue 27th Feb 2007 13:40 UTC in reply to "Not quite there"
Windows Sucks Member since:
2005-11-10

I get small amounts of people to change over to Linux every week. 99% of the people out there just: Surf, Email, IM, download, screw with pictures etc.

Ms office will never come to Linux, and who cares. Open Office works just fine for most people. Just set Openoffice by default to save at .doc and .xls and people don't have much problem using it.

Photoshop and dreamweaver work pretty darn good in Crossover office. So does MS office if you really must have it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Not quite there
by fukudasan on Tue 27th Feb 2007 14:39 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Not quite there"
fukudasan Member since:
2006-06-04

I couldn't agree more. I've been coming here to this site for years now and all you ever seem to hear about a lot of Linux is: "ohhh, but it won't run Office/IE/Photoshop etc.".

I agree 100%. Who cares? Here in South Korea I was forced to get XP Pro whether I liked it or not and once I finally split the HD and installed Mandrake (now Mandriva), I knew what happiness was. I was so happy that I became a Silver Club Member and have been now for two years. Each new install has become increasingly trouble-free.

And as others here have put it, I surf the web, download tons of stuff which plays far more easily in the likes of KMplayer and AmaroK than silly Windoze and QuickTime and do a lot of text-related stuff (like my writing at http://www.linuxquestions.org/ - see http://www.linuxquestions.org/linux/articles/Advocacy/A_Sad_Case_of... for what I really think about XP!!!).

Windoze is only necessary if you never try anything else. Allow yourself to think for one moment that Windoze is the ultimate according to which all else must be judged, and you are a psychologically 0wn3d MS drone. I don't need the likes of Office, Photoshop or the diabolical IE and now I'm happy with Mandriva, I never will.

I couldn't get an English copy of Windoze here and that immediately spells doom for security, when all of the dialogue boxes are in Korean and you can never be 100% sure what is happening. And this on a system notorious for viruses and exploits! No, thank you . . .

And again, as for which distro should be recommended for new users, who cares? Some are happy with SuSE, some with Debian, you name it. It's their choice, so how can anyone say they're wrong? Yet you get people who just come here who are either MS fanbois or Linux fans who want to argue the toss all the time.

The biggest problem with a site like this is that it attracts people who have an opinion and want to push it on others all the time. Mandriva is fine. But if you can't make it work on your system, no-one is forcing you to stick with it, try another distro instead. I am forever downloading LiveCDs of one type or another and it's not as if you can't experiment like this if you run a Windoze machine.

My only regret is that I didn't break out of sucky Windoze sooner. Don't generate excess hot air debating where to go, just get out.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Not quite there
by airjrdn on Tue 27th Feb 2007 15:56 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Not quite there"
airjrdn Member since:
2006-07-27

You may have had something informative to say, but I couldn't get past your 13yr old "l33t sp33k" crap long enough to read it.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Not quite there
by fukudasan on Tue 27th Feb 2007 16:16 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Not quite there"
fukudasan Member since:
2006-06-04

OK, I admit that was a late-night bottle of wine talking, but it wasn't until I was finally in ownership of a system out here (having had four similar back in England and Wales) that I realised what a problem this could be.

Yes, it was possible to get around the security issue to some extent because I could download English-language AV and other software but the core of the problem was that all of the menus and dialogue boxes are in Korean - hence I cannot be 100% sure of anything.

In contrast, installing Mandriva was a bit like going back to Windows 98SE, because back in those days there was more of a choice in language packs. However, I had no such choice out here. So in that sense, it made sense to go with something like Mandriva (but it could have been any other distro) because I had more control.

If this transition served to show me anything, it was that dependence upon a single OS, rather perhaps than a more versatile OS-agnostic approach, might be a liability rather than an advantage and as time has passed more and more of the functions I used to do under Windows can now be performed under Linux, and in fact more quickly because I find that there's less clutter and fewer distractions. The trouble, as others here have pointed out, is that a lot of people depend upon software supported by Windows to the extent that they feel they cannot migrate to another platform.

As a person who does not have such dependencies I am fortunate but others are not. My boss here, for example, runs a private English school and as the teaching materials are exclusively designed for use under Windows it appears impossible to make them usable on another OS. So his software costs increase as Windows versions become progressively more expensive and as he has more machines which are required to run it.

C'est la vie? Maybe, but perhaps he ought to have the choice like I have.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Not quite there
by airjrdn on Tue 27th Feb 2007 18:17 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Not quite there"
airjrdn Member since:
2006-07-27

I think many people; myself included, suffer from there not being solid alternatives to particular software packages, or not knowing about them. I'm aware of a site or two that suggest alternatives to popular Windows-only software packages, but sometimes even that's not enough.

Also, time invested is the holdup. I have over 11,000 photos cataloged in ACDSee. That alone would make it difficult for me to leave ACDSee, much less Windows. Then there's Quicken. I've seen a money manager in one of the distros that I *think* mentioned Quicken compatibility (or at least the ability to import a Quicken file), but like most open source/free alternatives, it was an extremely scaled down version when compared to Quicken.

For me, the holdups are gaming (framerates are sometimes ok, but mouse sensitivity in first person shooters doesn't seem nearly as responsive in Linux), ACDSee, development tools and platforms, Media (Audio CD, DVD/Movie utilities, etc.), general usage issues (when distros mount flash drives as read-only, etc.). I don't want to have to Google for 20 minutes to edit a file on a USB flash drive.

For my wife it's primarily Quicken.

For my Mom it's games such as Kyodai Mahjongg (not typical mahjongg), Bubble Shooter (Frozen Bubble isn't anywhere close), Bookworm, Bejeweled, Jigtopia, Scrabble Blast Deluxe. Some of them may now be available for Linux natively, but I haven't taken the time to look lately.

Plus what's the purpose in switching? Windows came on each machine, and none of them ever have issues. I leverage DriveImage XML (free) to make a system image each night, retaining the latest 3 just in case, and it's extremely rare to have to restore one.

I think you're one of the lucky few...one without apps keeping you on one platform or another. Unfortunately, many aren't that lucky.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Not quite there
by AdamW on Tue 27th Feb 2007 20:39 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Not quite there"
AdamW Member since:
2005-07-06

You "leverage" DriveImage?

come on. that kind of language is horrible enough in press releases. I cross myself every time I'm forced to write that flipping word. we don't need it leaking into casual conversation...

you "use" DriveImage. perfectly good word, a lot shorter, been around for ages, less likely to make you look like you spend all your spare time reading management self-help books...:D

Reply Score: 1

RE[8]: Not quite there
by airjrdn on Wed 28th Feb 2007 01:33 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: Not quite there"
airjrdn Member since:
2006-07-27

LOL Ok, I use DriveImage XML for imaging. ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Not quite there
by ricks1950 on Wed 28th Feb 2007 01:22 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Not quite there"
ricks1950 Member since:
2006-03-21

"Also, time invested is the holdup. I have over 11,000 photos cataloged in ACDSee."

"Then there's Quicken."

You made the choice to lock yourself in to applications that do not share their data gracefully. Your choice.

Hopefully, someday, you and others like you will begin to see the value in applications and operating systems that use truly open standards so that a migration to another application or platform does not become hopelessly complex or time consuming.

This is not only liberating, but has the potential to save you hundreds, if not thousands of dollars in software and upgrade and support costs, unless, of course, you are happy using illegal software.

This lock in is not a failing of Open Source software; it is simply a marketing strategy used by Microsoft, Intuit, Adobe, Corel and others. These companies simply want to get at your wallet, and keep coming back for more. The shareholders are hungry....

There are obviously many criteria that one can use when selecting a platform and application software.

Use whatever platform you want; it's your choice. I hope you took the time to weigh the pros and cons of the options, and made an informed choice you can be happy with.

Reply Score: 2

RE[8]: Not quite there
by airjrdn on Wed 28th Feb 2007 01:35 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: Not quite there"
airjrdn Member since:
2006-07-27

ACDSee exports to XML. I've written utilities to import that into other applications, Picasa being one. I've just not found any other app (open source or otherwise) that has near it's functionality or performance.

I assume Quicken does the same, but I don't really use it , my money is my wife's problem. ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Not quite there
by ricks1950 on Tue 27th Feb 2007 16:18 UTC in reply to "Not quite there"
ricks1950 Member since:
2006-03-21

"Until such time as the big guns like Photoshop, Dreamweaver, MS Office etc are ported then Linux remains irrelevant or a pleasant novelty for many users."

This line of reasoning is, pardon the word, stupid. To paraphrase:

Until such time as that motorcycle supports 6 passengers and keeps the rain off my suit, it will remain irrelevant or a pleasant novelty for many users.

Linux, and for that matter Mac OSX, are not REPLACEMENTS for Windows -- they are ALTERNATIVES to Windows, just as a motorcycle or a pick-up truck is an ALTERNATIVE to a car.

They are not the same, will never operate the same, will never support identical applications, and people will choose these alternatives for their own good reasons. There are always pros and cons when you consider alternatives.

Why bother with alternatives? I'll give you three reasons.

1. Restrictive EULA backed up by Windows Genuine Advantage (bullshit name for policing of license terms)

2. DRM technologies that restrict you from using media that you purchased legitimately under the fair use terms of current copyright laws.

3. Price of proprietary software.

If these reasons do not matter to you, and you want to continue using Windows, that is your choice to make. Frankly, I don't care one way or the other.

I sincerely doubt that you have been granted the authority to speak on behalf of "many users" "most people" or "Joe Average" so try to avoid doing so.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Not quite there
by elsewhere on Tue 27th Feb 2007 16:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Not quite there"
elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

Linux, and for that matter Mac OSX, are not REPLACEMENTS for Windows -- they are ALTERNATIVES to Windows, just as a motorcycle or a pick-up truck is an ALTERNATIVE to a car.

They are not the same, will never operate the same, will never support identical applications, and people will choose these alternatives for their own good reasons. There are always pros and cons when you consider alternatives.


A point that is often overlooked. Linux is not supposed to be a "free Windows", and as long as people keep trying to fit a square peg in a round hole by expecting linux to mimic Windows, desktop linux will remain a statistical niche by their standards.

The problem with comparing linux to Windows is that invariably people remain stuck on what linux can't do, which discourages them from thinking about linux *can* do. Today. Right now. And building from that.

Sure, linux will never be Windows. It's aiming much higher ;)

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Not quite there
by davyc on Wed 28th Feb 2007 09:48 UTC in reply to "RE: Not quite there"
davyc Member since:
2006-07-20

Hmmm I don't recall comparing Linux, WIndows or any other OS. I made the point that for a lot (most if we're honest?) it's the APPS they use, not the OS that's important. If there isn't a viable alternative they'll continue using whichever OS runs them. Where's the missing logic in that? Many designers use a Mac or Windows because they want to run Photoshop. It's simply the tool they're comfortable with and in my opinion has zero competition for these people. Also my bike isn't an alternative to my car in any way, it's just a fun toy :o)

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Not quite there
by ricks1950 on Wed 28th Feb 2007 10:57 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Not quite there"
ricks1950 Member since:
2006-03-21

There was a time when I simply would have agreed. However, you are falling into some logical traps in your arguments.

1. You may prefer Photoshop or some other app, but that preference does not render an alternative "not viable". Gimp users have done and continue to do incredible, artistic work. I have many gigabytes of digital photos and scans of earlier work, cataloged and manipulated with Open source tools. I used Windows until 2002, then changed. There are alternatives; some better than others, some better than the originals.

2. If you choose to ride your bike to work instead of taking your car, the bike became an ALTERNATIVE to your car with a number of clear trade-offs. My choice for personal transportation is a compact pick-up truck. It is not a direct replacement for a car -- better at some things, not so good at others. Place a Mac beside a PC, and the comparison will be -- better at some things, not so good at others. Place a Linux box beside the Mac -- you get the picture.

3. You continue to extrapolate your own opinion to others -- "in my opinion has zero competition for these people" -- expressing your opinion is perfectly valid, however, you cannot know what others think, and cannot possible speak on their behalf.

4. Factors besides applications drive the choice of platform. They certainly did in my case. License restrictions, DRM, price, data portability, vendor lock-in, freedom -- plus, I find using my computer is fun again, the way it used to be. Windows stopped being fun around 1995. If Open Source did not exist, I would have had to invent it, which would be a tragedy, as I'm not that bright.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Not quite there
by davyc on Wed 28th Feb 2007 11:53 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Not quite there"
davyc Member since:
2006-07-20

Some of your points are valid but others I have to disagree with. My preference for Photoshop does render Gimp invalid as an alternative. It's simply not as good at the tasks I want to do, it's interface is horrid (yes only my opinion but one that I've seen others make) and at the end of the day I have and know Photoshop. Can you create great graphics in Gimp? Yes, without doubt. Is it a viable alternative for me? No.

And yes I cannot know what others think but, like yourself, have friends and family who mostly all have computers. I can certainly use their opinions and my knowledge of them as a mini poll. My mom (for instance) couldn't care less what the underlying OS is as long as she can email and surf. As I said originally, she would be equally happy on Linux, BSD etc. But, as I also pointed out, she couldn't care less as long as the OS she got on her PC lets her do these things. Does she care about DRM, freedom, data portability? Not even remotely. Now, can you honestly say that my old mom isn't a good example of what an average non enthusiast computer user is?

Sometimes it's easy to forget that not everyone who uses a computer is actually any more enthusiastic about their computer or OS than they are about their vacuum cleaner.

edit: p.s. I don't commute on my bike. It's not viable in Scotland's weather :o)

Edited 2007-02-28 11:55

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Not quite there
by ricks1950 on Wed 28th Feb 2007 14:39 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Not quite there"
ricks1950 Member since:
2006-03-21

Interesting, but your logic is broken. First of all, anyone who holds up Photoshop as paragon of interface design is smoking crack....the Gimp has a different interface that took a while to learn, but it is not more complex or illogical than Photoshop. I don't think anything is. You made a choice to use Photoshop. That is your choice to make, I'm not criticizing. There are viable alternatives; you have chosen not to use any of them.

I can honestly say that your mom, probably a wonderful lady, is not a good example of an average non enthusiast computer user. No one is! The "average user" is a myth of marketing. Every one of us is an individual with different goals and purposes, and this is reflected in our use of computers. You can come up with some valid statistical analysis on apps and hardware, but attitudes and usage and overall knowledge are largely unknown.

Lastly, for people who continue to choose their platform with no regard to licensing and enforcement, DRM, data portability and basic freedom of choice, you will, sooner or later, purchase media that will not play, have historical data that cannot be accessed, or be forced into buying an upgrade you have no intention of buying due to some restriction imposed by proprietary software. If you use anti-virus, you probably already have.

Where I live, people go to Scotland to get a break from the the winter weather;)

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Not quite there
by davyc on Wed 28th Feb 2007 15:58 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Not quite there"
davyc Member since:
2006-07-20

Ok, I must point out that I never held up Photoshop as any sort of champion of interface design. Frankly it's a bit of a mess that's grown over the years. What I did say was that I knew it and personally didn't like Gimps interface. I also that Gimp doesn't do what I want to do. These are all personal as I pointed out but the main thrust of my argument was that I don't WANT to learn to use something else. Why should I (please don't start talking about freedom etc., I couldn't care less)?

There may well be no average user but I'd bet my pay that the most common tasks are browsing, email, chat etc. All do-able in Linux. At no point have I said Linux isn't suitable, it obviously is. My thrust is that the impetus for people to get rid of Windows isn't there for them. Let's face it, if it was then we wouldn't constantly be harping on about it as everyone would be using it.

Also the DRM argument is wrong. If the user bought the media as you said it'd play. The only media that's not going to play (at least in theory) is pirated media. And let's face it, that'll be hacked soon enough :o) If you choose Linux NO DRM media will play without hacking/piracy. Where's the freedom and choice there?

And again, my mom, dad, girlfriend, sheesh about everyone I know, genuinely couldn't care less. They worry about fuel bills, illness, their jobs not what OS their puter has.

ps not really off topic, we're discussing whether Mandrake really is the ideal desktop and why people may or may not switch or care.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Not quite there
by ricks1950 on Wed 28th Feb 2007 22:21 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Not quite there"
ricks1950 Member since:
2006-03-21

"Also the DRM argument is wrong. If the user bought the media as you said it'd play. The only media that's not going to play (at least in theory) is pirated media."

Wrong again -- as long as you do not live in the U. S. you are free to install DVDCSS and assorted codecs to play what you want. You will also find that some restricted media in that will not play in Windows plays and rips just fine in Open Source systems. I have a "protected" Joss Stone CD here that gives ample proof of this. It will play on the home CD player, but not in the car or truck, nor on a Windows PC, nor on any PC's DVD drive. I ripped and copied a clean version for use in the vehicles on my Mandriva box. This is perfectly legal under the fair use provisions of the copyright act, by the way.

I just can't believe that there are people like you who do not put enough thought and care into your own freedom to care about having your rights taken away one by one by proprietary software companies and big media. It will only cost you money, in the long run a lot of money!

For the love of God, man THINK!

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Not quite there
by archiesteel on Wed 28th Feb 2007 14:48 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Not quite there"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

It's simply not as good at the tasks I want to do, it's interface is horrid (yes only my opinion but one that I've seen others make)

Try Gimpshop.

But, as I also pointed out, she couldn't care less as long as the OS she got on her PC lets her do these things.

True, however with Windows you're plagued with having to run anti-virus and anti-spyware software...that and the recurrent security problems Windows has had through IE and OE, and which are surely not over - even with Vista.

For someone doing only web and e-mail, there's *no* reason to run Windows instead of, say, Mandriva or Ubuntu.

Now, can you honestly say that my old mom isn't a good example of what an average non enthusiast computer user is?

No, she isn't, because there are no *average* computer users. They are all different, and all have different needs, economic ability, etc.

This particular thread is off-topic - this article is supposed to be about Mandriva, not about Gimp or Windows.

Reply Score: 2

frostwire over azureus
by mark_in_rdjbrasil on Tue 27th Feb 2007 12:53 UTC
mark_in_rdjbrasil
Member since:
2005-11-30

i noticed the author has chosen amule, azuerus, and bittorrent has his preferred apps for file-sharing. i experimented with dreamlinux, and these apps are part of the initial install. maybe it is me, but i could never get the configurations set correct. anyway, i am using tr 2 of pc linux ( my fail-safe preferred distro ) and not having any problems with frostwire.

Edited 2007-02-27 12:53

Reply Score: 1

su ?
by brewmastre on Tue 27th Feb 2007 13:18 UTC
brewmastre
Member since:
2006-08-01

Does Mandriva not support sudo? I noticed that he was using su instead.

Reply Score: 1

RE: su ?
by superman on Tue 27th Feb 2007 14:00 UTC in reply to "su ?"
superman Member since:
2006-08-01

All distributions provide sudo since many years.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: su ?
by brewmastre on Tue 27th Feb 2007 15:24 UTC in reply to "RE: su ?"
brewmastre Member since:
2006-08-01

All distributions provide sudo since many years.

Yeah, thats what I thought about ifconfig until I used Mandrake. So if sudo is available in Mandriva, then why would this article show him using su, especially if this is intended for beginners. Sorry, I guess it just seems like the old way of doing things and its not a good idea to teach new users old tricks.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: su ?
by AdamW on Tue 27th Feb 2007 17:39 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: su ?"
AdamW Member since:
2005-07-06

Just because Ubuntu uses it by default does not make it 'the new way of doing things'.

If you want sudo to be default in Mandriva, file a bug at http://qa.mandriva.com/ with concrete reasoning as to why.

and, erm, ifconfig is in Mandriva and installed by default. It's only in the default _path_ for the root user, though. To run it as a regular user, do:

/sbin/ifconfig

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: su ?
by brewmastre on Tue 27th Feb 2007 17:51 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: su ?"
brewmastre Member since:
2006-08-01

Just because Ubuntu uses it by default does not make it 'the new way of doing things'.

If you want sudo to be default in Mandriva, file a bug at http://qa.mandriva.com/ with concrete reasoning as to why.


Well, my concrete reasoning is that if you "su" then your terminal will remain running as root until you exit. If you sudo a command, your root privileges will automatically be revoked in five minutes if idle. It's just more secure

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: su ?
by AdamW on Tue 27th Feb 2007 20:37 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: su ?"
AdamW Member since:
2005-07-06

On higher security levels on Mandriva, there is a session expiry time out: if you leave a session (root or regular user) idle for a while, it is automatically ended. This is nothing intrinsic to sudo or su.

Reply Score: 3

RE: su ?
by chemical_scum on Tue 27th Feb 2007 17:13 UTC in reply to "su ?"
chemical_scum Member since:
2005-11-02

Does Mandriva not support sudo? I noticed that he was using su instead.

It's there but not configured by default. you have to manualy edit the sudoers file yourself - after you su in as root of course.

Reply Score: 2

Funny
by fretinator on Tue 27th Feb 2007 15:31 UTC
fretinator
Member since:
2005-07-06

I thought the install details for Acrobat were funny:

Just open up the file in a text editor, find the wierd-named functon in the code, replace a long cryptic line another long cryptic line, and BOOM, you're all set.

Yikes!

It's not that hard (good instructions), but it does seem a little strange. I've run Acrobat for years on Linux and never had this kind of problem. Is this just a Mandriva problem, or is this a newer version of Acrobat with a bug. Just wondering.

Reply Score: 3