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Microsoft funding and marketing Linux?

Wake up and smell the tactic. Microsoft want you to buy Linux, but ONLY if you refuse to buy Windows, and ONLY from Novell, because amongst Linux companies ONLY Novell has been stupid enough to be duped not once, but twice, into becoming Microsoft's junior partner.

Edited 2007-05-08 15:09

Well, Microsoft definitely managed to split the community from the companies. Unfortunately so. And that's the really bad thing about Novells betrayal.

There is no reason for hating companies. Just avoid those who behave inappropriately.

"MS, Dell, Novell, Ubuntu... Who am I supposed to be hating?"

You could hate them all, but it wouldn't do you an iota of good.

I can't see any reason to hate Ubuntu – all they're doing is competently bringing free software and Linux to a mass audience.

If they carry on the way they're going you never know this might be the year of the Linux desktop!

"Cyclops - I find it ironic that you of all the people is putting this statement. You are a well-known GPL propagandist and you have always favoured GPL license over better commercial software.

For many people Windows is best tool for the job but hey i don't think we would ever see you agree to that. You would never in life say good about Windows or market it even when it is suitable tool for the job because you let your biases cloud your judgment. "

I'm flattered by your post. Although I will be more careful in future with my language. As we can talk for most people. Linux is simply the best *platform* in terms or reliability; cost; safety ; fun etc. The *only* people its not better for are those that refer to themselves as *hardcore gamers*(sic) and those who are heavily reliant on adobe products. of which is a tiny percentage of the available market.

I hope that makes that clear.

Let me tell you for whom windows is the best:

1. Windows is best tool for novice home users because it works in most cases where as Linux (even latest Ubuntu) fails to install on many platforms. Don't trust me, check their mailing lists. For me it failed with corrupt package message even though i compared the MD5 sum of the download.
2. Windows is best tool for productivity software from Microsoft Word to Visio to the kickass Microsoft Outlook. Yes there are inferior clones like Open Office but Microsoft has the best of breed tools.
3. Windows is great for gamers.
4. Windows has the best development tools like Visual Studio and DDK. It has the well-defined driver development model and best set of debuggers. It is the best platform for software development. And don't forget documentation.
5. Windows is good for some server scenarios where easy administration is needed.

And if you look at my list above, i think the my list actually agree to market share too. So i don't know what is your point when you spred the Linux or GPL propaganda.

Edited 2007-05-07 17:49

...the kickass Microsoft Outlook.

Comments like this trip my sarcasm filters and completely invert my interpretation of your arguments.

Let me tell you for whom windows is the best:

1. Windows is best tool for novice home users because it works in most cases where as Linux (even latest Ubuntu) fails to install on many platforms. Don't trust me, check their mailing lists. For me it failed with corrupt package message even though i compared the MD5 sum of the download.

-> no ordinary end user installs windows himself they buy a pc with windows preinstalled i can say to u that i have installed ubuntu on my mums pc with windows guess what she uses ubuntu she even doesnt care anymore about windows so forget your argument its all about the users choise

2. Windows is best tool for productivity software from Microsoft Word to Visio to the kickass Microsoft Outlook. Yes there are inferior clones like Open Office but Microsoft has the best of breed tools.

-> im not gone argue about the quality and all the features of office etc.. but be honest do u pay for office and do u need the 80% of the tools that are not in openoffice ?? sorry OSS does the job for any home users so forget about number 2

3. Windows is great for gamers.

-> i agree but thats only 5 of 10 years of your life lets say between 15 and 25 and for that we have alternatives that are much better like xbox or ps3

4. Windows has the best development tools like Visual Studio and DDK. It has the well-defined driver development model and best set of debuggers. It is the best platform for software development. And don't forget documentation.

-> i doubt that there are no good development tools on linux documentation can be a pain in the ass true no one beats the ms documentation

5. Windows is good for some server scenarios where easy administration is needed.

-> the only server that i can think of is SMB for companys where u have 10 or 20 ppl working for the rest i wouldnt recomend it.

And if you look at my list above, i think the my list actually agree to market share too. So i don't know what is your point when you spred the Linux or GPL propaganda.

-> i think i have shorten your list somehow i sell pc's and i can tell u most ppl just buy computers and are not so happy with windows but just dont know about linux. when they see my ubuntu desktop they all look up and ask me what it is once i explain them and show them most of them go like oooh aaah wooouw thats easy that looks good and to be honest i dont like selling pc's with ubuntu because those customers are the customers that never return for a reinstallation of there pc for all the others once a year they all come back with spyware viruses f--ked up registry's etc ...


just my opinion

I had a NES when I was 5, and the last thing they'll pull out of my cold, dead corpse at the nursing home is the PS12 controller. Video games aren't just a 'kid thing'; video games have notably changed the way the average person entertains themselves.

From a business standpoint, saying an OS has no significant games is a notable flaw. It's like saying the OS doesn't have software for web serving, standard office tasks, multimedia playback, or Internet browsing: it's a major hole in what that OS can do compared to other OSs.

You really want to claim that "novice home users" install the operating system manually? On barebones systems without pre-installed one?



Yes, hopefully. Would be quite puzzling if a different platform would be running Microsoft's software better than their own, wouldn't it?



Debatable. I think it really depends what kind of software one is talking about, what platform it is going to be deployed on and what languages one is going to use.

"1. Windows is best tool for novice home users because it works in most cases where as Linux (even latest Ubuntu) fails to install on many platforms. Don't trust me, check their mailing lists. For me it failed with corrupt package message even though i compared the MD5 sum of the download."

This is off-topic in the instance of a Dell providing pre-installed software. Its also not true since the Vista platform which has had major problems with graphics and. I actually think that the Ubuntu installer is not very good. I like the gparted tool, but still do not have confidence in it.

"2. Windows is best tool for productivity software from Microsoft Word to Visio to the kickass Microsoft Outlook. Yes there are inferior clones like Open Office but Microsoft has the best of breed tools."

I'm very careful with the word best. You have moved from Vista to Microsoft Office please make your mind up. Microsoft Office is an excellent office package if you get it for free, but too expensive otherwise. Its major failing are open formats(more important than the licence); PDF output; price. Please do not try to argue these make you more productive its simply not true. A letter simply takes the same time to write. The most productive is the Old DOS based Wordperfect. OpenOffice is simply the better product.

"3. Windows is great for gamers."

Vista is poor for gamers; even on Microsoft platform is plauged with slow graphics. In some cases up to 40% slower. Support is poor for old games. A poor substitute for console gaming, and an expensive option to boot. The exception being WOW. What both Linux and Vista have in droves is good casual gaming which I don't think gets as much attention as it should. Remember Hardcore Gaming is a small market; Windows gaming is a smaller market. If you don't believe me look at how Intel onboard graphics is still the leading graphics card.

"4. Windows has the best development tools like Visual Studio and DDK. It has the well-defined driver development model and best set of debuggers. It is the best platform for software development. And don't forget documentation."

And alternatives exist like eclipse as well as great tools that go with it. I think cross-platform is the best to develop for and using the open source model. Documentation exists in droves. A quick look in *any* bookstore and you will see a Linux section as large as the windows. Of course we are talking small projects for large projects its...interesting. Thats ignoring resources like those of Freenode.

"5. Windows is good for some server scenarios where easy administration is needed."

Vista Server is an untied platform we will see how it performs when it comes out. I'm sure it will be pretty good.

I do find it funny that you suggest a Vista(non crippled)+Office+Visual Studio+Visio a solution which costs in the region of $3000 for that price I could get a 24" screen; dual core processor; 4GB memory; 1TB of storage; A blu-ray drive and a PS3.

The Linux platform has *lots* of imperfections...and in lots of unexpected areas but these aren't them. It has poor application support in some critical areas, but it does have class A products like MySQL; MPlayer; K3B; Apache etc etc and thats ignoring the choice on Linux when it comes to things like desktop ; File system.

But seriously your post is little to do with my love of GPL or the topic in hand.

but like I say for most people that surf; write a few letters; chat; access e-mail and nothing else. Its simply *the* solution.

1. Windows is best tool for novice home users because it works in most cases where as Linux (even latest Ubuntu) fails to install on many platforms. Don't trust me, check their mailing lists. For me it failed with corrupt package message even though i compared the MD5 sum of the download.

Ubuntu does not represent the best of Linux. It's the most popular but not the easiest, safest or the most stable. Canonical just managed to lure mass of people with their previous Free CD offerings.

2. Windows is best tool for productivity software from Microsoft Word to Visio to the kickass Microsoft Outlook. Yes there are inferior clones like Open Office but Microsoft has the best of breed tools.

And you think OpenOffice is the only office solution for Linux? Think again. There are several including some commercial ones like SoftMaker Office, Star Office and online ones like ThinkFree.

3. Windows is great for gamers.

Yep and its not too bad in Linux either with Cedega 6.0, Wine 0.9.36, and Crossover Office 6. Not to mention good at running plain Windows 32 apps.

Notice I didn't say perfect.

4. Windows has the best development tools like Visual Studio and DDK. It has the well-defined driver development model and best set of debuggers. It is the best platform for software development. And don't forget documentation.

I'm not a developer but Linux has several dozen IDEs, including Eclipse. MonoDevelop is getting better too.

5. Windows is good for some server scenarios where easy administration is needed.

Get GUI server tools for Linux and its easy too. SUSE has them all with YaST, RedHat has some; you can find all the GUI stuff you need with a little research on Google.

I imagine you mean forums instead of mailing list. As it happens, people only post on forums when they have problems, not when things go right - so looking at a forum to give an indication of how well the OS installs is going to give you a very distorted view.

I suspect that you are aware of this fact, but chose to ignore it because it fits with your anti-Linux agenda.



For many people OpenOffice is more than sufficient. For those who absolutely need MS Office, the latter runs flawlessly under Linux using Crossover, so that's not an issue.

Oh, and Outlook? Give me a break...if you really want to use an Outlook clone, Evolution and Kontact are quite adequate.



So are game consoles. There are tons of exclusive games on consoles that you can't get on Windows.



That's a matter of opinion. Obviously there are many programmers who don't use them, and manage to create very good programs nonetheless.



Linux servers can be extremely easy to administer, with such systems as Webmin.

I refuse to reply to your Microsoft propaganda, because it's not even worth a discussion.

Before you shout something like that, first check out your resources, because you are making a fool of yourself :-)

Good post overall.

First, if the last ditch effort for failing IT businesses is to contribute technical and marketing efforts to Linux, rather than, say, becoming a patent troll, then I think the world is better off than before. However, it could be argued that Novell is exploring both Linux contribution and patent trolling simultaneously through this deal.

The problem with this deal is that for all of the benefit that Novell gets out of it--and the potential is substantial--Microsoft gets the fat end of the stick. They get to become the marketing front for an IT outlook dominated by a heterogeneous Windows/Linux strategy. Microsoft is sending the message that IT is a blend of both platforms, and you can only get both from Microsoft. Novell will get their's, but Microsoft will get a cut, and it will come out of the hard work of the Linux community.

We can officially say goodbye to our vision of changing the economics of the software industry. While we may succeed in proliferating free software and pushing proprietary software out to the niches, the flow of money will remain remarkably unchanged. There will still be a Microsoft tax, and there will still be a cost associated with being "Genuine." How silly of us to assume that changing the software would change the business. Some things just never change.

What was the vision of changing the economics of the software industry? I always got the feeling that the driving force behind much of the free software out there was to "scratch an itch" for lack of a better description. Certainly the chariot of OSS over the last ten years now has been Linux, and that wasn't started to change the economics of software industry. GNU aside, I never really got the feeling that there was a radical economic undertone in terms of affecting the corporate software world.

Despite what's going on between Novell, Microsoft, and Dell, there's nothing stopping you from getting Debian or OpenBSD and using that. While patent laws might make the US software industry landscape a virtual quagmire(heh heh, all-right), they don't always apply world wide. Moreover at the end of the day, many of the developers who hack away at these projects, especially the big ones, are employed by these companies. Real life concerns, such as how to provide for one's self or one's family, tend to override relatively minor issues such as software. Even Jeremy Allison, the championed developer who left Novell due to the Microsoft deal, waited to leave Novell until he had something lined up elsewhere.

At least part of the idea of free software is that there are no tax collectors involved. There are many proven free software business models, and I'm a huge supporter of commercial interests in free software. But requiring that users pay a fee or risk legal action is not one of the business models I support. This is extortion, and it has no place in the free software economy.

If Microsoft wants to offer premium services for their Linux customers, I'll support them. If they want to offer dual-licensed development toolkits of their own creation, let them go right ahead. If they want to sell proprietary add-ons, I couldn't justify opposing their right to do so. If they want to sell hardware devices or provide web services based on Linux, that's fine with me.

But they should not be able to assert their right to take a cut out of corporate Linux revenues just because of their industry clout. This is a clear abuse of their monopoly in the platform market, and if the courts won't stop them, then we need new legislation.

My decision not to use Novells distributions doesn't figure into this issue. The software I run has a lot of common code with the products Novell ships. Even OpenBSD has code covered by the Novell agreement. The global debate on intellectual property law doesn't figure in either, because the international court of public opinion seems to impose its will on the enforceability of these laws anyway. What matters here is that Microsoft is asserting their ownership of unspecified parts of free software, and corporations have no choice but to bow to their unsubstantiated threats.

They do have that choice. Novell had a choice, they just chose the path unpopular to the community and left us "customers" scratching our heads wondering that the point of it is. But saying they had no choice is inferring more out of a few direct comments from Microsoft than you probably should be. Both Novell and Dell are most likely trying to hitch their wagons to Microsoft to benefit themselves. IBM and Red Hat to date don't see a economic benefit in following along. Sometimes all you have to do is follow the money.

From a personal standpoint, I don't care what Steve Balmer or some random Microsoft exec says they own or do not own. It's all unsubstantiated BS anyway and I'll continue to treat it as such until that BS becomes substantiated fact.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Up until this, I was considering a Dell laptop (even though the deal seems to be only US based). After hearing this, I wouldn't touch Dell with a bargepole.

Linux users: boycott this in droves, it's the only way to stop this Microsoft/Novell IP FUD.

Linus (and others): get over your self opinions and egos, change the Linux kernel pronto to GPL v3 (when it's released) and stop this sort of shit from happening. It's damaging to the Linux community, and to the term open source.

When FUD is involved, there's no honesty. The sooner Dell and Novell go bust, the better. Good riddance.

Dave

*heavy sigh*

Perhaps if you guys started learning to code yourselves instead of crowding around Groklaw bitching about what Linus and the kernel devs should do, maybe you'd be able to achieve your own objectives instead of preaching for others to do it for you.

Instead, yet again the FSF proponents perpetuate the very FUD they decry from Microsoft in order the advance the v3 agenda. Physican, heal thy self.

Wow just wow. I'm not sure whether his post or your is more strange.

The poster has stated he wont support dell. because Dell by choosing Suse *and* in making political statements where it could have chosen to make none. Why they have done so is interesting.

But its interesting, because this choice by dell and the public statements why they have chosen their distribution leaves a bad taste.

I am not convinced for a moment that Dell is worried about Microsoft Suing them they are one of their Major customers.

Its a double win for Microsoft.

1) Its a success it supports the notion of Microsoft's patents in Linux; and reinforces Suse being the only legitimate Company for using Microsoft's IP(sic).

2) Its a failure...Vista server is better than Linux.

To be fair the whole deal gives with one hand and takes away with the other.

The reality is the Novell deal happened. Dell are making these statements. An American mistake is affecting the rest of the world.

You can't put your head in the sand and say this isn't happening. The FSF v3 agenda(sic) is going to do very well out of this...and rightly so, v2 was written many years before these problems exist.

Personally the world that we live in demands action; Whether v3 is a real solution to all the problems with v2 including the patent problem(sic), I very much doubt . I imagine v3 will not have the same mileage as that of v2, already its showing signs of being dated.

Edited 2007-05-08 02:32

Only if you buy into what Microsoft is shoveling. Some of us don't find what Microsoft says to be law. Treating what they say as law, is buying right into what they're saying. I think that's part of what elsewhere is getting at, and something I agree with 100%. A certain segment of the OSS/Linux community is doing plenty of FUDing against OSS/Linux all by themselves.



While I'm giving IT directors as a whole more credit than some deserve, they don't purchase or recommend to purchase products based on them being "better". Let's be real here, it's the services, not the OS. Exchange and Active Directory are what draw customers, not the Windows Server OS itself.

"When FUD is involved, there's no honesty"

Yes I agree and unfortunately but predictably all I am seeing here is FUD from certain Linuxphiles.

"The sooner Dell and Novell go bust, the better. Good riddance."

Completely unbiased and impartial of course.

Gotta agree and Also might I mention that a lot of us are not looking at the larger picture. We can not allow Dell's Ubuntu offering to fail or we go back to being an also ran OS. We are in no way being forced to buy the Novell products. Dell is doing what makes sense to its business customers and although I and many others disagree I am not willing to let that break our only chance to break this monopoly that has been holding many of us at gun point for years. I am only asking that we do what makes sense.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Up until this, I was considering a Dell laptop (even though the deal seems to be only US based). After hearing this, I wouldn't touch Dell with a bargepole.

Well, assuming Dell follow-through on their promises to start Dell Linux desktop deals elsewhere soon (which admittedly is a pretty big assumption, and why do they need to add "localisation options" for the UK anyway?) you might want to rethink that. Here in the UK, the only Linux laptop reseller I know of gives you a choice of Ubuntu, or SuSE for an extra £30 or so. I don't see why, given that choice, anyone aware of the issues couldn't just go for the Ubuntu option.

Edited 2007-05-08 15:28

Despite common British believe, the UK is considered to be part of the European market.

Even if in the case of a computer it might be the exact same model being sold in the US and in the UK, the European divison of companies still treat them differently.

Quite likely a matter of company bureaucracy, nevertheless a barrier

"to sponsor a team of developers to create MS-branded Linux distribution ?"

Who wants a Linux distro infected with DRM/activation/WGA and a frightening EULA?

It would be called Novell Linux 2008

Allot of computers I fix are DELL

...yes, I'm sure they are.

RFOL!!!