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Microsoft funding and marketing Linux?

Wake up and smell the tactic. Microsoft want you to buy Linux, but ONLY if you refuse to buy Windows, and ONLY from Novell, because amongst Linux companies ONLY Novell has been stupid enough to be duped not once, but twice, into becoming Microsoft's junior partner.

Edited 2007-05-08 15:09

Well, Microsoft definitely managed to split the community from the companies. Unfortunately so. And that's the really bad thing about Novells betrayal.

There is no reason for hating companies. Just avoid those who behave inappropriately.

"MS, Dell, Novell, Ubuntu... Who am I supposed to be hating?"

You could hate them all, but it wouldn't do you an iota of good.

I can’t see any reason to hate Ubuntu – all they’re doing is competently bringing free software and Linux to a mass audience.

If they carry on the way they’re going you never know this might be the year of the Linux desktop!

"Cyclops - I find it ironic that you of all the people is putting this statement. You are a well-known GPL propagandist and you have always favoured GPL license over better commercial software.

For many people Windows is best tool for the job but hey i don't think we would ever see you agree to that. You would never in life say good about Windows or market it even when it is suitable tool for the job because you let your biases cloud your judgment. "

I'm flattered by your post. Although I will be more careful in future with my language. As we can talk for most people. Linux is simply the best *platform* in terms or reliability; cost; safety ; fun etc. The *only* people its not better for are those that refer to themselves as *hardcore gamers*(sic) and those who are heavily reliant on adobe products. of which is a tiny percentage of the available market.

I hope that makes that clear.

Let me tell you for whom windows is the best:

1. Windows is best tool for novice home users because it works in most cases where as Linux (even latest Ubuntu) fails to install on many platforms. Don't trust me, check their mailing lists. For me it failed with corrupt package message even though i compared the MD5 sum of the download.
2. Windows is best tool for productivity software from Microsoft Word to Visio to the kickass Microsoft Outlook. Yes there are inferior clones like Open Office but Microsoft has the best of breed tools.
3. Windows is great for gamers.
4. Windows has the best development tools like Visual Studio and DDK. It has the well-defined driver development model and best set of debuggers. It is the best platform for software development. And don't forget documentation.
5. Windows is good for some server scenarios where easy administration is needed.

And if you look at my list above, i think the my list actually agree to market share too. So i don't know what is your point when you spred the Linux or GPL propaganda.

Edited 2007-05-07 17:49

...the kickass Microsoft Outlook.

Comments like this trip my sarcasm filters and completely invert my interpretation of your arguments.

How about supplying an alternative that provides equivalent functionality...

Evolution does a good job as an Outlook alternative or you could just use Outlook 2003 with Crossover Office 6.0.

Actually, it's pretty close - especially considering the use most people make of Outlook.

It's not even close to providing "equivalent functionality".

Bull.

Evolution can integrate with Exchange Server just like Outlook and accessed via Web interface. It also has PDA, mobile phone syncing, and dozens of other features.

If you need an enterprise PIM, then I second Evolution, and I'll add Kontact. Both are pretty nice solutions. Although you can surely find the odd feature here and there that they don't support, they provide functionality that Outlook has never gotten right, such as the ability to manage large amounts of mail without grinding to a halt.

If you don't need full-featured calendaring or contact management, I like Thunderbird, and there are many other great free software mail clients. Many people swear by Pine ;-)

If you need an enterprise PIM, then I second Evolution, and I'll add Kontact. Both are pretty nice solutions. Although you can surely find the odd feature here and there that they don't support, they provide functionality that Outlook has never gotten right, such as the ability to manage large amounts of mail without grinding to a halt.


BS FUD. I've got a huge amount of mail in my Outlook inbox and it has never ground to a halt.

I've got a huge amount of mail in my Outlook inbox and it has never ground to a halt.
I second that. I have around 500 MB of mail in my outlook including personal folders and it is snappy.

The best feature of Outlook 2007 is the search. You can have 50000 mails in your folders but as soon as you type something, the search results comes almost instantaneously.

The other cool feature is how outlook 2007 has a todo bar on right where it shows your upcoming calender events and tasks. I simply love it. It has made me so much more organized.

Edited 2007-05-07 22:54

How about replying in a civil manner?

Edited 2007-05-08 02:18

How about replying in a civil manner?

You're assuming the Windows fanboys are being civil. Hahah.

Let me tell you for whom windows is the best:

1. Windows is best tool for novice home users because it works in most cases where as Linux (even latest Ubuntu) fails to install on many platforms. Don't trust me, check their mailing lists. For me it failed with corrupt package message even though i compared the MD5 sum of the download.

-> no ordinary end user installs windows himself they buy a pc with windows preinstalled i can say to u that i have installed ubuntu on my mums pc with windows guess what she uses ubuntu she even doesnt care anymore about windows so forget your argument its all about the users choise

2. Windows is best tool for productivity software from Microsoft Word to Visio to the kickass Microsoft Outlook. Yes there are inferior clones like Open Office but Microsoft has the best of breed tools.

-> im not gone argue about the quality and all the features of office etc.. but be honest do u pay for office and do u need the 80% of the tools that are not in openoffice ?? sorry OSS does the job for any home users so forget about number 2

3. Windows is great for gamers.

-> i agree but thats only 5 of 10 years of your life lets say between 15 and 25 and for that we have alternatives that are much better like xbox or ps3

4. Windows has the best development tools like Visual Studio and DDK. It has the well-defined driver development model and best set of debuggers. It is the best platform for software development. And don't forget documentation.

-> i doubt that there are no good development tools on linux documentation can be a pain in the ass true no one beats the ms documentation

5. Windows is good for some server scenarios where easy administration is needed.

-> the only server that i can think of is SMB for companys where u have 10 or 20 ppl working for the rest i wouldnt recomend it.

And if you look at my list above, i think the my list actually agree to market share too. So i don't know what is your point when you spred the Linux or GPL propaganda.

-> i think i have shorten your list somehow i sell pc's and i can tell u most ppl just buy computers and are not so happy with windows but just dont know about linux. when they see my ubuntu desktop they all look up and ask me what it is once i explain them and show them most of them go like oooh aaah wooouw thats easy that looks good and to be honest i dont like selling pc's with ubuntu because those customers are the customers that never return for a reinstallation of there pc for all the others once a year they all come back with spyware viruses f--ked up registry's etc ...


just my opinion

I take exception to this. I have never had viruses or registry screwup.

You know you can do more with your Windows computer than just boot to the desktop. You might try actually using it,, then you wouldn't make silly statements like this. It may be that you spend a large amount of time doing system maintainence.

How did he abuse you, exactly?

In any case, you shoudn't be that over-sensitive when you yourself engage in ad hominem attacks on others.

I had a NES when I was 5, and the last thing they'll pull out of my cold, dead corpse at the nursing home is the PS12 controller. Video games aren't just a 'kid thing'; video games have notably changed the way the average person entertains themselves.

From a business standpoint, saying an OS has no significant games is a notable flaw. It's like saying the OS doesn't have software for web serving, standard office tasks, multimedia playback, or Internet browsing: it's a major hole in what that OS can do compared to other OSs.

...and yet the two personal examples you give are about *consoles*, not PCs.

Everyone who follows the gaming industry knows that, with a few exceptions (most of which, like WoW, can run on Linux), consoles are now where it's at. The PC gaming scene (i.e. the Windows gaming scene) has been moribund for years, representing only a small part of the market (to the order of 10%, if one excludes casual games such as Bejeweled, Minesweeper, etc.).

Most PC users don't play games beyond casual games, and Linux has tons of these. Serious gamers can still dual-boot (which is actually a plus in terms of productivity, since you're less likely to stop working and start playing if you have to reboot).

So, with all these things considered, the fact that there are few games for Linux is not that significant, since Windows itself has few games when compared to games consoles, and Linux has an excellent collection of casual games. For hardcore gamers, dual-booting is a good option.

Well said.

We all remember the days when validating the purchase of a computer consisted of "But Dad, I can type up those book reports with it". Of course the actual reason was playing video games like Leisure Suit Larry with your friends.

Linux is cool with me, but it will be nothing more than a neat toy to screw around with until I get some decent games to play on it.....and I'm 33 years old. Also, no thanks, you can keep your over-priced consoles....both of them.

I realize Linux gaming is "chicken and egg" syndrome, but I would rather see the push to further the evolution of apps like Wine as opposed to wasting ginormous amounts of time making some flavor of the month Linux distro run on the lousy PS3.

But that, of course, is my opinion.

Ah, fond memories indeed (except in my time it was Wizardry on the Apple ][...)



I hope you realize the delicious irony in that statement. :-)



I don't see how this is relevant. I'm 37 myself, and a computer geek/gamer since the age of 8 (and now video game designer by trade). There's no particular age for gaming anymore. The Nintendo Wii is apparently very popular among the grandparents...(bowling and golf, what's not to love! :-)



The Wii is not overpriced, by any measure. As for the other two...they are expensive, but not much more than a top-tier video card. And they have much more games not available on PCs than the other way around. The PC gaming market is increasingly marginalized. Consoles rule the industry...some people may not like it, but that's the state of affairs right now.



Yes and no. It's not a zero-sum game. The people who work on making a Linux distro run on a PS3 (or who try to make it run on an xbox360 or Wii) are not the same who work on improving Wine, and there's no indication that they would work on the latter if they didn't spend their time doing the former (most likely, they wouldn't, since it's not necessarily the same expertise).

Of course, DirectX 10 compatibility is the next big goal of Wine-type development, but the problem is that DirectX is a moving target. If you're a real Windows gamer, then dual-booting is a better option (in my view). Of course, like the majority of gamers out there, I've moved on to consoles, and use my computers to do work (and waste time on sites like these...). But I still support Wine and similar efforts (morally and financially). Any progress on that front is good for Linux, though to me it is not a matter of necessity.



And you are quite entitled to it.

Edited 2007-05-08 03:28

As seriously off-topic of this is getting. I suspect very strongly that commercial cutting edge gaming does not work well on linux.It is not a chicken and an egg situation.

Gaming is a different market to that of the server; desktop; office.

Many of the advantages of Open-source do not exist in gaming. You cannot sell an open source game and supply a service; technical support etc. etc. The shelf life of a cutting edge game is days/weeks and not much longer, and yet requires a large dedicated team, many months of work for a relatively short gaming experience.

Now that said I am surprised that no company with a large back catalog of games has not sold all there back-catalog of games with open source engines and loose CC content. Simply to increase shelf life; free exposure; higher profit margin in an almost empty market. You can see how well the consoles are doing selling back catalogs for their titles.

On a side not. The idea of computers for education is dated concept and has been for a long time. My biggest disappointment is that the PS3 wasn't pushed with its educational benefits. It is the one console open/powerful enough to be used as just that.

Unfortunately it only includes minimal support for Linux. Instead its being sold as a HD Movie/Game machine after saying it was a supercomputer. Even I could see how the could package it with a TV of 1366x7whatever resolution keyboard and mouse to pack kids off to collage with ideal for a small dorm room, and make the package cheap. Something their competitors couldn't do and push their own agendas.

Edited 2007-05-08 05:04

You really want to claim that "novice home users" install the operating system manually? On barebones systems without pre-installed one?



Yes, hopefully. Would be quite puzzling if a different platform would be running Microsoft's software better than their own, wouldn't it?



Debatable. I think it really depends what kind of software one is talking about, what platform it is going to be deployed on and what languages one is going to use.

You mean they use the recovery media, which basically is a automated restore of the factory defaults.

Without such a recovery steps "novice home users" would be in big trouble.

I don't see how it could matter which operating system would be on those disks, i.e. why you think it would be harder to do a Linux recovery than a Windows recovery

Yeah, I imagine that's why friends and family call me when they want to reinstall Windows - it's so simple!

Hey, it's quick, too! When I had to reinstall Vista on the machine I bought for my ex's parents, it only took three hours! Woohoo! And that's just for the system. That's much better than the 30-45 minutes it takes to install Ubuntu and a boatload of productivity software, games and accessories!

(Yes, I'm being sarcastic...)



See my post above: only people who have problems post on forums. Linking to a few posts here and there means nothing. I myself have installed Feisty on three PCs at home, and all three installs (including a laptop) went without a hitch - you didn't see me log on to the forum to claim success...



The list of problems is still infinitesimal when compared to the total number of Ubuntu users.



And I've never had any failures with Linux over the past 5 years. What can we conclude from this? I'll let you think about it.

Linux installers are not perfect, and I'll admit they've given me trouble. The Ubuntu livecd misconfigures my ati x850PE and crashes every time... but the XP installer has not been that much nicer to me. How many "average users" would ignore/not understand the "Press F6 to install 3rd party SATA/RAID controller", and the fact that it needs to be on a floppy, only to have the installer boot for 5 mins and scream that you have no hard drives? Basically, what it boils down to is OS installs are not for novice users...period.

Agreed...at least with Ubuntu you get the option of trying the alternate install CD. But you're right, for ordinary users, pre-installed (and configured) is the way to go!

Tomcat,

Thats not the problem. The problem is you fail to acknowledge all the available software options on Linux/Unix pior to badmouthing it.

In many cases, 3rd party plugins fullfill the missing missing features in popular FOSS software. If not, perhaps other FOSS or commercial products have the desired functionality.

Edited 2007-05-07 20:03

Thats not the problem. The problem is you fail to acknowledge all the available software options on Linux/Unix pior to badmouthing it.

In many cases, 3rd party plugins fullfill the missing missing features in popular FOSS software. If not, perhaps other FOSS or commercial products have the desired functionality.


And this is precisely the reason why Linux has such difficulty gaining a foothold on the desktop: Poor integration. I don't care about whether a plug-in exists somewhere out on the Web. It has to be preinstalled on a machine in order to be useful.

The modding down isn't due to any dogmatic reaction, but rather because the modded down posts (such as the one I'm responding to right now) are off-topic flamebait.

Notice, dude, how "tolerant" the Linux advocates are around here? If you say _anything_ which conflicts with their religious dogma, you're modded down.

Notice, dude, how "tolerant" the Windows fanboys are around here? If you say _anything_which conflicts with their religious dogma, you're bombarded by insulting balderdash which usuallycontains the same unimaginative mixture or combination of "religio[ous,ion]", "dogma", "socialist," "communist, " "fanatic" etc. Actions speak louder than words, and sometimes it's easier and more telling to mod rubbish down than to respond to it point by point.

They simply can't stand reading factual information which destroys their illusions of superior quality.

Sources of said "factual information" being people like you and NotParker, I presume.

It's sad, truly sad, when people delude themselves.

Indeed.

"1. Windows is best tool for novice home users because it works in most cases where as Linux (even latest Ubuntu) fails to install on many platforms. Don't trust me, check their mailing lists. For me it failed with corrupt package message even though i compared the MD5 sum of the download."

This is off-topic in the instance of a Dell providing pre-installed software. Its also not true since the Vista platform which has had major problems with graphics and. I actually think that the Ubuntu installer is not very good. I like the gparted tool, but still do not have confidence in it.

"2. Windows is best tool for productivity software from Microsoft Word to Visio to the kickass Microsoft Outlook. Yes there are inferior clones like Open Office but Microsoft has the best of breed tools."

I'm very careful with the word best. You have moved from Vista to Microsoft Office please make your mind up. Microsoft Office is an excellent office package if you get it for free, but too expensive otherwise. Its major failing are open formats(more important than the licence); PDF output; price. Please do not try to argue these make you more productive its simply not true. A letter simply takes the same time to write. The most productive is the Old DOS based Wordperfect. OpenOffice is simply the better product.

"3. Windows is great for gamers."

Vista is poor for gamers; even on Microsoft platform is plauged with slow graphics. In some cases up to 40% slower. Support is poor for old games. A poor substitute for console gaming, and an expensive option to boot. The exception being WOW. What both Linux and Vista have in droves is good casual gaming which I don't think gets as much attention as it should. Remember Hardcore Gaming is a small market; Windows gaming is a smaller market. If you don't believe me look at how Intel onboard graphics is still the leading graphics card.

"4. Windows has the best development tools like Visual Studio and DDK. It has the well-defined driver development model and best set of debuggers. It is the best platform for software development. And don't forget documentation."

And alternatives exist like eclipse as well as great tools that go with it. I think cross-platform is the best to develop for and using the open source model. Documentation exists in droves. A quick look in *any* bookstore and you will see a Linux section as large as the windows. Of course we are talking small projects for large projects its...interesting. Thats ignoring resources like those of Freenode.

"5. Windows is good for some server scenarios where easy administration is needed."

Vista Server is an untied platform we will see how it performs when it comes out. I'm sure it will be pretty good.

I do find it funny that you suggest a Vista(non crippled)+Office+Visual Studio+Visio a solution which costs in the region of $3000 for that price I could get a 24" screen; dual core processor; 4GB memory; 1TB of storage; A blu-ray drive and a PS3.

The Linux platform has *lots* of imperfections...and in lots of unexpected areas but these aren't them. It has poor application support in some critical areas, but it does have class A products like MySQL; MPlayer; K3B; Apache etc etc and thats ignoring the choice on Linux when it comes to things like desktop ; File system.

But seriously your post is little to do with my love of GPL or the topic in hand.

but like I say for most people that surf; write a few letters; chat; access e-mail and nothing else. Its simply *the* solution.

@CrazyDude0

Off-topic

There are shortcomings in Linux+Applications. The ones for me personally would be a better *graphical* ftp client. I'm currently using cvs gftp which is *good enough* and I know filezilla is going cross platform.

The other obvious shortcoming that has been the disgrace of Linux for forever has been xorg.conf. Which alegidly will be fixed in the next 3 months with xorg 7.3.

The weak spots in hardware support 3D. I use the open source R300 driver which is good and gets better all the time mesa 6.3 solved many niggles, and it did have niggles. I have no experience of closed source drivers.

People seem to have trouble with wireless drivers, I have looked , open source supported wireless can be had for next to nothing, and finding a working wireless card is a lot easier that delving though the nightmare that non-wireless standards seem to have brought with them.

The only applications I've *never* found an equivalent that I've not been 100% happy with are virtualdub; infraview; xnews oddly all freeware or open source. They have equivelents klibido; avidemux2; and well eog but they arn't the same. I oddly haven't missed *any* microsoft products.

For the Desktop, and I use XFCE the most basic of the three desktops it has one missing function that I would like and thats loop selection on the desktop, and thats going to be gone the next release.

Installation is easier on Linux apart from one thing it has the added complication of keeping Windows around. Btw I reasently tried to keep a windows98 partition and windows XP partition and boot both. I had to give up. Keeping a *legal* OEM you have to be pretty good. Microsoft also suffers from activation. Which is *awful*. Seriously its awful. The other problem with the Microsoft platform that is *never* mentioned and I don't know why is its rubbish. Seriously awful if you want the latest and greatest Linux you just download the latest Distro and off you go; Installing your updates is a breeze. Now even ignoring hard drive OEM installs or backup installs. Windows Disks get 5 years old, Simply installing one makes your computer *vulnerable* to attack, and they don't contain any drivers for your hardware, or not current ones. The same will be true of Vista disks well now. Do not even *begin* to compare the experience of installing Windows its a *nightmare*, and the licensing conditions are frightening.

The reality of windows if the *biggest* problem is not the spyware or viruses becuase I actually believe that becuase of the scale of the problem they have got to the stage where it is pretty simple to fix, albeit at the cost of CPU; Time and effort, if you can live with the fact your computer has been compromised and most are. I actually always liked defragging. I find is maintenance for drivers; windows update; individual applications which is a never ending cycle. package management for all its faults have made maintaining a system a doddle after its been set up. It doesn't end there Windows doesn't have standards. I actually edit the menu's on windows. A problem thats been solved...and recently after xfree86's fork, but I can actually find things on Linux and they are under sensible names.

Windows always *feels* dated; Vista is a few months Xorg 7.2 has been released 2 versions of the kernel have been released my desktop has seen update. Beryl has seen 2 updates. The kernel will see at least 8 updates. X.org 4 Ubuntu and Gnome 4 before the next version on Windows is delayed.

Windows support is expensive. I'm not talking consulting professionals although I'm led to believe a call to Microsoft is expensive, but you don't have the same kind of support from freenode; to Distro forums; to User groups. I'm actually a little disappointed that I didn't get involved in user groups when I started Linux, but I didn't know then what I know now.

I'd miss the fact that I get *new* stuff all the time, seriously a new release of the kernel every 3 months 6 months between X releases and the desktop...and 100's of other smaller packages that I wouldn't even look to see whether they had been updated or not, and I can trust them with an update, and being connected to my computer becuase I choose to do so.

I'd miss applications I've grown to love MythTV; Mplayer and smaller ones like K3B and Comix. Media Center on Vista appeals to me.

I've actually not mentioned cost, but I have got a 2 new 500gb hard drives and anew graphics card for machine in the past 6 months. I'd probably be looking for a second hard XP machine, and there are some bargains to be had, if I went down the Microsoft route.

Notice I've not talked about things like DRM or WGA or other nasties because I think if you use a Microsoft Platform you get used to being treated like a second class citizen.but I'd miss the fact that I feel in control, and that is priceless.

You have completely changed the topic now.

Your first complaint is virus and spyware:

1. I run XP as a Limited User and i have never had even a single Virus or Spyware on my ssytem. Yes i don't install Kazza or other file sharing stuff on my system as well.

2. You say the support from MS is expensive. Actually i have found more forums with help regarding Windows than Linux. When my Ubuntu installation failed with corrupt package error message, my message was not even replied once on Ubuntu alias (why? Because there were 100s of other installation issues related messages pending). I eventually fixed that by installing previous version Ubuntu and then upgrading to the latest. So no I don't agree that there is a lot of support in Linux world.

I prefer Windows over Linux because it is more stable for me and it has all the applications in the world i need ever including vim

Yes i pay a little bit money for it but it is far more worth than wasting my time on installing ubuntu.

Edited 2007-05-07 22:35

Based on one occurence? After you posted a single request in a busy thread? Yeah, that's showing good faith...

Can you link to the actual post, please? I'd be curious to read it...if you had the same attitude as you regularly display on OSNews, then it's no surprise no one responded to you.

Why is there so much anger in OSS community that you modded down my comment below? I don't think it matches any of the reason listed on osnews to mod it down. So did you lie when you modded me down?


For people who chat - there is not a very good chat client with voice and webcam support in Linux. None of the official clients from major vendors is supported on Linux.

But yes for others i.e. if you just surf web and wrie emails, i think it is good enough to use Linux once you get it installed (or if it comes preinstalled).

However when you or anyone market Linux please don't forget to honestly list it's shortcomings. Like hey if you use linux make sure you don't file your tax returns using turbotax because it doesn't work. Do you really want an unhappy pi$$ed off person in the month of April? I for sure don't.


So if i have to convince someone to use Linux, this is what i will tell them upfront.

1. You shall never try to install Linux yourself.
2. A lot of the chat clients don't work on Linux and neither does webcam works properly.
3. TurboTax does not work.
4. Adobe photoshop does not work.
5. Office productivity software are inferior clones and bloated as well.
6. Your games would not work.

Edited 2007-05-07 22:52

Stop making off-topic posts, and you'll stop being modded down.

If you need a reminder, the topic of the article is Dell's announcement that it will team up with Novell and Microsoft to distribute Novell's SUSE Linux Enterprise Server software along with Microsoft's Windows Server software. The topic is *not* whether Linux is a good Desktop OS or not, or whether Tax Software runs on it.

There's an easy solution, btw, for all such specialty software that only runs on Windows: it's called virtualization. That's what I did this year for taxes. Also, it is now usually possible to do your taxes on the Web, at the tax software maker's web site.

Now, please try to stay on topic, and tone down the flamebaiting rhetoric. Thanks.

Webcam works in Kopete and aMSN.

Tax, use online or virtualize Windows.

Office, run wine or virtualize.

Games, cedega or wine. But that's a small segment of the market

Applications are a chicken-egg marketshare problem.

BTW the post from Ubuntuforums about the person who couldn't get her wireless working is from an old release of Ubuntu. And you can't blame Linux when the vendors don't even provide drivers themselves and people hav eto reverse engineer-- i.e., Broadcom. Use Intel, Ralink, and be happy.

1. Windows is best tool for novice home users because it works in most cases where as Linux (even latest Ubuntu) fails to install on many platforms. Don't trust me, check their mailing lists. For me it failed with corrupt package message even though i compared the MD5 sum of the download.

Ubuntu does not represent the best of Linux. It's the most popular but not the easiest, safest or the most stable. Canonical just managed to lure mass of people with their previous Free CD offerings.

2. Windows is best tool for productivity software from Microsoft Word to Visio to the kickass Microsoft Outlook. Yes there are inferior clones like Open Office but Microsoft has the best of breed tools.

And you think OpenOffice is the only office solution for Linux? Think again. There are several including some commercial ones like SoftMaker Office, Star Office and online ones like ThinkFree.

3. Windows is great for gamers.

Yep and its not too bad in Linux either with Cedega 6.0, Wine 0.9.36, and Crossover Office 6. Not to mention good at running plain Windows 32 apps.

Notice I didn't say perfect.

4. Windows has the best development tools like Visual Studio and DDK. It has the well-defined driver development model and best set of debuggers. It is the best platform for software development. And don't forget documentation.

I'm not a developer but Linux has several dozen IDEs, including Eclipse. MonoDevelop is getting better too.

5. Windows is good for some server scenarios where easy administration is needed.

Get GUI server tools for Linux and its easy too. SUSE has them all with YaST, RedHat has some; you can find all the GUI stuff you need with a little research on Google.

I imagine you mean forums instead of mailing list. As it happens, people only post on forums when they have problems, not when things go right - so looking at a forum to give an indication of how well the OS installs is going to give you a very distorted view.

I suspect that you are aware of this fact, but chose to ignore it because it fits with your anti-Linux agenda.



For many people OpenOffice is more than sufficient. For those who absolutely need MS Office, the latter runs flawlessly under Linux using Crossover, so that's not an issue.

Oh, and Outlook? Give me a break...if you really want to use an Outlook clone, Evolution and Kontact are quite adequate.



So are game consoles. There are tons of exclusive games on consoles that you can't get on Windows.



That's a matter of opinion. Obviously there are many programmers who don't use them, and manage to create very good programs nonetheless.



Linux servers can be extremely easy to administer, with such systems as Webmin.

I refuse to reply to your Microsoft propaganda, because it's not even worth a discussion.

Before you shout something like that, first check out your resources, because you are making a fool of yourself :-)

Good post overall.

First, if the last ditch effort for failing IT businesses is to contribute technical and marketing efforts to Linux, rather than, say, becoming a patent troll, then I think the world is better off than before. However, it could be argued that Novell is exploring both Linux contribution and patent trolling simultaneously through this deal.

The problem with this deal is that for all of the benefit that Novell gets out of it--and the potential is substantial--Microsoft gets the fat end of the stick. They get to become the marketing front for an IT outlook dominated by a heterogeneous Windows/Linux strategy. Microsoft is sending the message that IT is a blend of both platforms, and you can only get both from Microsoft. Novell will get their's, but Microsoft will get a cut, and it will come out of the hard work of the Linux community.

We can officially say goodbye to our vision of changing the economics of the software industry. While we may succeed in proliferating free software and pushing proprietary software out to the niches, the flow of money will remain remarkably unchanged. There will still be a Microsoft tax, and there will still be a cost associated with being "Genuine." How silly of us to assume that changing the software would change the business. Some things just never change.

What was the vision of changing the economics of the software industry? I always got the feeling that the driving force behind much of the free software out there was to "scratch an itch" for lack of a better description. Certainly the chariot of OSS over the last ten years now has been Linux, and that wasn't started to change the economics of software industry. GNU aside, I never really got the feeling that there was a radical economic undertone in terms of affecting the corporate software world.

Despite what's going on between Novell, Microsoft, and Dell, there's nothing stopping you from getting Debian or OpenBSD and using that. While patent laws might make the US software industry landscape a virtual quagmire(heh heh, all-right), they don't always apply world wide. Moreover at the end of the day, many of the developers who hack away at these projects, especially the big ones, are employed by these companies. Real life concerns, such as how to provide for one's self or one's family, tend to override relatively minor issues such as software. Even Jeremy Allison, the championed developer who left Novell due to the Microsoft deal, waited to leave Novell until he had something lined up elsewhere.

At least part of the idea of free software is that there are no tax collectors involved. There are many proven free software business models, and I'm a huge supporter of commercial interests in free software. But requiring that users pay a fee or risk legal action is not one of the business models I support. This is extortion, and it has no place in the free software economy.

If Microsoft wants to offer premium services for their Linux customers, I'll support them. If they want to offer dual-licensed development toolkits of their own creation, let them go right ahead. If they want to sell proprietary add-ons, I couldn't justify opposing their right to do so. If they want to sell hardware devices or provide web services based on Linux, that's fine with me.

But they should not be able to assert their right to take a cut out of corporate Linux revenues just because of their industry clout. This is a clear abuse of their monopoly in the platform market, and if the courts won't stop them, then we need new legislation.

My decision not to use Novells distributions doesn't figure into this issue. The software I run has a lot of common code with the products Novell ships. Even OpenBSD has code covered by the Novell agreement. The global debate on intellectual property law doesn't figure in either, because the international court of public opinion seems to impose its will on the enforceability of these laws anyway. What matters here is that Microsoft is asserting their ownership of unspecified parts of free software, and corporations have no choice but to bow to their unsubstantiated threats.

They do have that choice. Novell had a choice, they just chose the path unpopular to the community and left us "customers" scratching our heads wondering that the point of it is. But saying they had no choice is inferring more out of a few direct comments from Microsoft than you probably should be. Both Novell and Dell are most likely trying to hitch their wagons to Microsoft to benefit themselves. IBM and Red Hat to date don't see a economic benefit in following along. Sometimes all you have to do is follow the money.

From a personal standpoint, I don't care what Steve Balmer or some random Microsoft exec says they own or do not own. It's all unsubstantiated BS anyway and I'll continue to treat it as such until that BS becomes substantiated fact.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Up until this, I was considering a Dell laptop (even though the deal seems to be only US based). After hearing this, I wouldn't touch Dell with a bargepole.

Linux users: boycott this in droves, it's the only way to stop this Microsoft/Novell IP FUD.

Linus (and others): get over your self opinions and egos, change the Linux kernel pronto to GPL v3 (when it's released) and stop this sort of shit from happening. It's damaging to the Linux community, and to the term open source.

When FUD is involved, there's no honesty. The sooner Dell and Novell go bust, the better. Good riddance.

Dave

*heavy sigh*

Perhaps if you guys started learning to code yourselves instead of crowding around Groklaw bitching about what Linus and the kernel devs should do, maybe you'd be able to achieve your own objectives instead of preaching for others to do it for you.

Instead, yet again the FSF proponents perpetuate the very FUD they decry from Microsoft in order the advance the v3 agenda. Physican, heal thy self.

Wow just wow. I'm not sure whether his post or your is more strange.

The poster has stated he wont support dell. because Dell by choosing Suse *and* in making political statements where it could have chosen to make none. Why they have done so is interesting.

But its interesting, because this choice by dell and the public statements why they have chosen their distribution leaves a bad taste.

I am not convinced for a moment that Dell is worried about Microsoft Suing them they are one of their Major customers.

Its a double win for Microsoft.

1) Its a success it supports the notion of Microsoft's patents in Linux; and reinforces Suse being the only legitimate Company for using Microsoft's IP(sic).

2) Its a failure...Vista server is better than Linux.

To be fair the whole deal gives with one hand and takes away with the other.

The reality is the Novell deal happened. Dell are making these statements. An American mistake is affecting the rest of the world.

You can't put your head in the sand and say this isn't happening. The FSF v3 agenda(sic) is going to do very well out of this...and rightly so, v2 was written many years before these problems exist.

Personally the world that we live in demands action; Whether v3 is a real solution to all the problems with v2 including the patent problem(sic), I very much doubt . I imagine v3 will not have the same mileage as that of v2, already its showing signs of being dated.

Edited 2007-05-08 02:32

Only if you buy into what Microsoft is shoveling. Some of us don't find what Microsoft says to be law. Treating what they say as law, is buying right into what they're saying. I think that's part of what elsewhere is getting at, and something I agree with 100%. A certain segment of the OSS/Linux community is doing plenty of FUDing against OSS/Linux all by themselves.



While I'm giving IT directors as a whole more credit than some deserve, they don't purchase or recommend to purchase products based on them being "better". Let's be real here, it's the services, not the OS. Exchange and Active Directory are what draw customers, not the Windows Server OS itself.

"When FUD is involved, there's no honesty"

Yes I agree and unfortunately but predictably all I am seeing here is FUD from certain Linuxphiles.

"The sooner Dell and Novell go bust, the better. Good riddance."

Completely unbiased and impartial of course.

Gotta agree and Also might I mention that a lot of us are not looking at the larger picture. We can not allow Dell's Ubuntu offering to fail or we go back to being an also ran OS. We are in no way being forced to buy the Novell products. Dell is doing what makes sense to its business customers and although I and many others disagree I am not willing to let that break our only chance to break this monopoly that has been holding many of us at gun point for years. I am only asking that we do what makes sense.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Up until this, I was considering a Dell laptop (even though the deal seems to be only US based). After hearing this, I wouldn't touch Dell with a bargepole.

Well, assuming Dell follow-through on their promises to start Dell Linux desktop deals elsewhere soon (which admittedly is a pretty big assumption, and why do they need to add "localisation options" for the UK anyway?) you might want to rethink that. Here in the UK, the only Linux laptop reseller I know of gives you a choice of Ubuntu, or SuSE for an extra £30 or so. I don't see why, given that choice, anyone aware of the issues couldn't just go for the Ubuntu option.

Edited 2007-05-08 15:28

Despite common British believe, the UK is considered to be part of the European market.

Even if in the case of a computer it might be the exact same model being sold in the US and in the UK, the European divison of companies still treat them differently.

Quite likely a matter of company bureaucracy, nevertheless a barrier

"to sponsor a team of developers to create MS-branded Linux distribution ?"

Who wants a Linux distro infected with DRM/activation/WGA and a frightening EULA?

It would be called Novell Linux 2008

Allot of computers I fix are DELL

...yes, I'm sure they are.

RFOL!!!