Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 19th Mar 2012 22:48 UTC
Windows "Microsoft will finish work on Windows 8 this summer, setting the stage for personal computers and tablets with the operating system to go on sale around October, according to people with knowledge of the schedule." Judging by the community preview, they've got a lot of work yet to do, like, you know, actually making it usable on non-touch devices. What I'm tying to say - pretty aggressive release schedule.
Order by: Score:
Comment by orestes
by orestes on Mon 19th Mar 2012 22:54 UTC
orestes
Member since:
2005-07-06

Odds are, it'll ship close to what you see in the CP. Maybe some theme work and some bugfixes, but still the half assed platypus of an OS.

Now, I'm not saying I utterly hate Windows 8, but if MS manages to successfully foist this one on desktop users without a ME/Vista style backlash... I'm honestly not sure I want to occupy the same "planet" as mainstream users anymore.

Reply Score: 14

v RE: Comment by orestes
by RRockMan on Mon 19th Mar 2012 23:21 UTC in reply to "Comment by orestes"
RE[2]: Comment by orestes
by orestes on Mon 19th Mar 2012 23:34 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by orestes"
orestes Member since:
2005-07-06

If by fanboy you mean alpha/beta testing with actual workloads since mid last year and probably better versed in the OS and it's quirks than most.. then yeah, you got me I'm an unrepentant fanboy

Clearly more fanboy than those squeeing over Metro's "improvements" like overexcited Japanese schoolgirls.

Fact is for everything right they did with Win 8 up to this point they took 2-3 steps backwards in the context of desktop usage.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Comment by orestes
by RRockMan on Mon 19th Mar 2012 23:39 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by orestes"
RRockMan Member since:
2008-11-30

I don't see absolutely anybody squealing over Metro, can you provide a link?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Comment by orestes
by Morgan on Tue 20th Mar 2012 07:14 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by orestes"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

I'm a pretty big fan of Metro, though I don't "squee". It's on my phone and my Xbox; I find it to be visually pleasing, lightning fast, and easy to use. It has made the Xbox game controller into a decent wireless remote for using the device as a set top box.

On a non-touch desktop PC however, it leaves a LOT to be desired. I love how much faster the OS is than Vista, and even 7 in some ways. But using Metro as a Start menu replacement is a step backwards in my experience. I'm really hoping that Metro will be turned off by default for the Professional lines of the OS, and an option to be turned off with the Home and Ultimate editions. Otherwise I don't see widespread adoption in the IT world, and perhaps another backlash like we had with ME and Vista previously.

Which makes me wonder, does Microsoft really intend to keep up this "every other consumer OS version sucks" model? Windows 95 was terrible compared to 98SE, which was miles better than its successor, Windows ME. XP was great, but Vista blew. Windows 7 is nothing short of amazing.


(And yes, I know I left out Windows 2000. It was a vast improvement over the 9x series, but was business oriented. Also it was the basis for XP, so it can be seen as the bridge from 9x to the current versions.)

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: Comment by orestes
by RRockMan on Tue 20th Mar 2012 14:25 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by orestes"
RRockMan Member since:
2008-11-30

I asked where was all the cheering that @orestes pointed at, not the hating. The hating I'm seeing it all around, even here in a website born as a BeOS site, where I (a long-time BeOS user and fan) was accustomed to see innovative GUIs praised, and not despised.

Now, where would all the vocal and cheering fans of Metro hide on the net? I'm not seeing them.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Comment by orestes
by phoenix on Tue 20th Mar 2012 14:43 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by orestes"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

Probably because there aren't any "Metro on the desktop" fans to be found anywhere.

"Metro on a phone"? Supposedly awesome.

"Metro on a tablet"? I can see potential.

But "Metro on a desktop" is just bassackwards.

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: Comment by orestes
by lucas_maximus on Tue 20th Mar 2012 19:07 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by orestes"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

I like it, therefore your brash statement is incorrect.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by orestes
by jbauer on Tue 20th Mar 2012 14:47 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by orestes"
jbauer Member since:
2005-07-06

I asked where was all the cheering that @orestes pointed at, not the hating. The hating I'm seeing it all around, even here in a website born as a BeOS site, where I (a long-time BeOS user and fan) was accustomed to see innovative GUIs praised, and not despised.


Metro may or may not be innovative, that's beside the point. The point is that is not adequate for a specific class of computing devices (traditional desktops) and yet is not optional there. That's why people, and I'm not even trying to quantify if we're talking some, many, or most, are upset.

It isn't that hard to understand, is it?

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by orestes
by RRockMan on Wed 21st Mar 2012 10:37 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by orestes"
RRockMan Member since:
2008-11-30

The point is that I really don't see this "not optional" that you all see. In my view, having the classic desktop/wm means that Metro is optional. If it wouldn't be, you wouldn't have classic UI.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Comment by orestes
by adinas on Wed 21st Mar 2012 07:34 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by orestes"
adinas Member since:
2005-08-17

I guess there aren't any. lol. Anyway, I think you are misunderstanding the critique. Metro may be a great innovative GUI on a tablet and phone. I'll probably get a Metro tablet if I find one with good hardware/price. The problem is with it on a desktop. I just think it less good for a multi purpose computing experience with large screens. If MS were only coming out with this for tablets or on desktops but in not such an invasive way, I'm sure you would only be hearing cheers.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by orestes
by RRockMan on Wed 21st Mar 2012 10:38 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by orestes"
RRockMan Member since:
2008-11-30

Have you ever thought about the possible desktop/htpc advantage of Metro + Kinect? I think the two would marry very happily.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by orestes
by adinas on Tue 20th Mar 2012 12:12 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by orestes"
adinas Member since:
2005-08-17

No. If the public rejects Metro on the desktop, Microsoft will change direction and we will all benefit.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by orestes
by bassbeast on Fri 23rd Mar 2012 09:39 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by orestes"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

How EXACTLY is jamming a touch screen UI onto a non touch desktop a GOOD thing, because i want to hear that. I've shown CP to over 200 customers now and THEY HATE IT, not because its "different" but because its a CELL PHONE. Be honest that is ALL IT IS, its a cell phone jammed into a non touch desktop because Ballmer can't accept its OVER, he has LOST when it comes to mobile.

Frankly the ONLY positive reviews i've seen are from the same shills that said Vista was good, but you know what? it wasn't good, it was a bloated pig with lousy drivers. Widows 8 isn't good either, you have TWO UIs that do not go together, the entire experience is jarring and you have to constantly switch back and forth, if you think anything deeper than a fart app is coming out for the Metro UI I have a bridge you might be interested in as they purposely hamstringed the framework to make sure it would run on ARM which is what i would argue is the ONLY thing Ballmer cares about ATM and the whole thing makes you work harder to do anything because its designed for touch and news flash! Desktops aren't touch enabled and won't be by Oct!

So please explain how EXACTLY this is good, because I have yet to find a single customer that would take it on a bet. After running it for two weeks frankly I'd rather run MS Bob than this pile of fail.

Reply Score: 1

Another "not usable on desktop" complaint?
by RRockMan on Mon 19th Mar 2012 23:17 UTC
RRockMan
Member since:
2008-11-30

I don't know what to say... I can only repeat: usability depends on how much accustomed you are to an interface. The fact that ALL modern operating systems are featuring the same paradigm over and over in the last years is probably the only obstacle to Windows 8 usability.
Then of course there are types of applications that simply require classical UIs, but do I really have to remind that Windows 8 also has classic UI? Why does nobody acknowledge this? And if it's about "having to switch constantly from Start Screen to classic because there's no start menu", I don't think you used to do much when you had your start menu open, besides... Well... navigating the menu and clicking what you had to. Well it's the same here, what's the difference? I'll tell you what it is: not being accustomed to it.
When you'll have the same years of experience with Metro, we'll be making fair comparisons.

Note: also research all the key and mouse bindings associated with the Metro interface, you're up to some surprises.

Edited 2012-03-19 23:22 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29


Note: also research all the key and mouse bindings associated with the Metro interface, you're up to some surprises.


I've been running the CP on my laptop from the day it was released, thank you very much. I'm very well aware of all the mouse and key bindings. The problem is simply that there is WAY TOO MUCH highly volatile mousing/keyboarding to be done. Even something as simple as switching tabs requires twice as many clicks as before - this starts to add up. Worse yet, though, is how the UI has to be accessed using very volatile mouse movements that fail quite often (esp. on touchpads).

I have so much experience with different kinds of operating systems and UIs it's not funny anymore. This has nothing to do with getting used to things - it's just been badly designed. This is a touch interface - not a mouse and keyboard interface.

Reply Score: 9

RRockMan Member since:
2008-11-30

IMO, these are exactly the kind of small issues that get corrected in the final version, if enough people gives the right feedback. I hope you will!

Reply Score: 1

tuma324 Member since:
2010-04-09

IMO, these are exactly the kind of small issues that get corrected in the final version, if enough people gives the right feedback. I hope you will!


When have Microsoft paid attention to user feedback? If they had, they wouldn't be forcing people with Metro, considering the majority of people are not liking it.

Reply Score: 8

shotsman Member since:
2005-07-22

IMHO, the complaints about Metro are treated like

Nahnananananananan I can't hear you

shouts Mr Balmer as he sticks his fingers into his ears.

If I owned an MS Stock, I'd be looking at selling them pretty soon.

Reply Score: 7

bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

Actually you aren't getting marked down for trolling, you are getting marked down for shilling which you obviously are, which means you are either 1.-the most gung ho fanboi I've seen in awhile, because even the diehard softies I've talked to aren't happy about metro anywhere but cell phones, or 2.-You are cashing a check which considering how much epic astroturfing I've seen done by MSFT on the various tech sites trying to keep another Vista backlash from happening frankly wouldn't surprise me. BTW if its #2? Tell your bosses they are wasting their cash, Win 8 is gonna make MSBob look like Win95.

As for Win 8 I've been building PCs since before there even WAS a Windows and I have to say I can't remember the last time I saw something THIS bad, its really awful. Having a crippled traditional desktop jammed in there with Metro is just the kind of lazy halfway bad design we've come to expect under Ballmer's MSFT and the fact that on non touch devices you feel like you are actually fighting the UI just shows how nobody at MSFT cares about anything but Ballmer's obsession with cell phones. Got news for ya Mr Ballmer, the ship sailed and you missed it. its over, the fat lady is down the street having a sammich.

So please, for the love of all that is good and decent in the world either just accept you are the new IBM and stop trying to jam Windows onto a cell phone, or spin off the mobile division so you don't cripple the desktop with your ignorant badly conceived obsessions, kay? Final prediction win 8 dies faster than Vista, OEMs demand and get Win 7 downgrade rights, and if we are lucky Ballmer gets a pink slip.

Reply Score: 1

phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

The big difference is the absolute, utter, and complete lack of discoverability!

There's no intuitiveness to anything in Windows 8.

For instance, you power on, boot, and see a pretty picture on the screen with the time and weather. That's it. No login button. No indication that you need to click'n drag to move this lock screen out of the way. No indication that pressing a key on the keyboard will move this screen. Just a pretty picture and a clock.

So you move that out of the way and login. What are you presented with? A screen full of various-sized, multi-coloured boxes with tiny text inside describing the name of the app. No indication that you can start typing to search. No indication that you can scroll the screen horizontally by scrolling vertically with the mouse. No indication that the corners of the screen do special things. No hints of any kind about anything. And no real organisation to anything either.

By some fluke you move the mouse to the right side of the screen and this wierd strip of icons (aka charms) appear. One of them is settings. But it's not settings like a Control Panel that groups all the settings for everything together in one spot. No, it's only settings for the app currently running. So how the hell do you get to the control panel to configure things like networking?

So, you click on a tile in the start screen and an app starts full screen. Okay, so how you interact with the damned thing? How do you get back to the start screen? How do you resize the thing to not be fullscreen? How do you move it around the screen? Again, there's no indication anywhere onscreen for these things. No title bar, no window borders, no maximise/restore button. In fact, no window management at all.

So, how is this "intuitive" or "easy"? It's just different for the sake of different, and doesn't work with a mouse worth beans.

Reply Score: 20

UglyKidBill Member since:
2005-07-27

This instead is exactly what I mean when I say it requires experience. Likewise, though, I hope you'll write this feedback to Microsoft other than on forums. Because it's very trivial to solve these issues, they just need people to be vocal with them, and not with the rest of the (underground) internet.


A gazillion dollars in R&D, coders, expertise... and it didn't buy them a meager bit of common sense??? They need US to tell them about such things?? seriously?... ^_^

Reply Score: 4

Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

It's simple: Microsoft thought that since we all have tablets now (I know, we really don't) that a touch interface would somehow work on a device with that archaic, last century mouse. I really don't think Metro is ready for daily use on a desktop. A laptop is somewhat of a better fit, but only if it has a large multi-touch trackpad, and not every laptop does.

I think Microsoft deserves an "attaboy" for trying to push the envelope while Apple cranked out the same old interface once again for Lion, but they just went too far with this. I think it would be a lot better if we didn't have the fullscreen Metro apps, and if the Metro springboard were superimposed on the regular desktop Apple-Dashboard-style instead of being full screen. Unfortunately, the only way to do that is to keep the Windows 7 start menu with an icon for launching Metro, which is one click too many.

Now that I've gotten used to Gnome 3, I feel like Microsoft would have a lot to learn from that project. It's still not my favorite interface (long in the tooth as they all are, my top picks are OS X, QNX Photon, BeOS, and Xfce) but I think the Gnome team is on to something good. If they would tweak some font and widget sizes, fix the annoying toast notifications, and clean up some of the useless blank space, they would have a great interface that other projects could learn from.

Reply Score: 2

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

For instance, you power on, boot, and see a pretty picture on the screen with the time and weather. That's it. No login button. No indication that you need to click'n drag to move this lock screen out of the way. No indication that pressing a key on the keyboard will move this screen. Just a pretty picture and a clock.


Sorry took me all of 5 seconds to figure out ... I just started typing (which is exactly what you do on 7).

So you move that out of the way and login. What are you presented with? A screen full of various-sized, multi-coloured boxes with tiny text inside describing the name of the app. No indication that you can start typing to search. No indication that you can scroll the screen horizontally by scrolling vertically with the mouse. No indication that the corners of the screen do special things. No hints of any kind about anything. And no real organisation to anything either.


FFS, this really annoys me instead of a start menu which I have to really concentrate on, which is a small area on one of my screens. I get a whole screen ... easier for me to see.

Metro Start bar works exactly the same as Windows 7. Start typing and you it does a search.

By some fluke you move the mouse to the right side of the screen and this wierd strip of icons (aka charms) appear. One of them is settings. But it's not settings like a Control Panel that groups all the settings for everything together in one spot. No, it's only settings for the app currently running. So how the hell do you get to the control panel to configure things like networking?


I have to agree with this ... I am still a little confused to get to these things.


So, you click on a tile in the start screen and an app starts full screen. Okay, so how you interact with the damned thing? How do you get back to the start screen? How do you resize the thing to not be fullscreen? How do you move it around the screen? Again, there's no indication anywhere onscreen for these things. No title bar, no window borders, no maximise/restore button. In fact, no window management at all.


Comon, by now you must know that the Win Key always brings up "START".

So, how is this "intuitive" or "easy"? It's just different for the sake of different, and doesn't work with a mouse worth beans.


I don't have problems.

Most people that have been complaining are those that were complaining the moment they saw the start screen.

Also Restaurant Menus in real life happen to "go full screen" as well and nobody has any problems understanding those.

Reply Score: 2

maccouch Member since:
2012-03-14

dude, you really should get out of GeekVille for a moment...

Do you do the usual tech support for friends and family? if you do, try to put yourself on their shoes for a moment and try to use windows 8 as if in their mind. The useless login screen without no indication whatsoever would be enough for me to get a call from them asking me how to use their new laptop. (If they didn't just went to the store to complain it was "broken". )

Windows 8 might be a heaven for geeks (which i don't think it is but i admit i haven't played more than a couple of hours with it) but for the common joe, the guy that uses Computers as a TOOL (instead of a toy as we do), it's a useless plane crash.

It's just not usable for regular persons. Specially the ones that still have trouble figuring out the "old / sane windows interface". And you want them to start using a OS that hides everything from the screen and somehow expects them to discover them.

It will be a bloodbath. Seriously. You want to make money with microsoft? short-sell their stock...

by the way, if you have an hour to spend watch these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4boTbv9_nU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeeOkHjV7nM

they are "mind-clearing".

Reply Score: 4

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Any change of UI will have some people confused. Most of Windows is based on "Muscle Memory" and repetition.

The same complaints were made about the Ribbon in Office 2007. The same complaints could be made about PhotoShop that has drastically changed it UI quite a few times in 10 years.

People struggled for years with the Start Menu and the concept of "files". Should the start menu and files not exists because of these normal people?

If you change something there will be Churn, people complain about the Facebook UI changing. People complaining about Instant Search on Google etc etc etc.

I am sorry by the start screen is pretty much like an android launcher or iPhone launcher ... and if my Dad can figure those out I am pretty sure other people can figure out the start screen.

People will always bitch and moan about change. In 10 years time when Microsoft unveil some 3d interface for holographic displays or the version 1 of LCARS (they aren't far off by the way if you do some googling) ...

people will bitch an moan and talk about how their 15 year old Win32 app won't work right ... there will be videos of idiots having problems with it because they are unwilling to change the mental model of how it fits together.

Reply Score: 2

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

people will bitch an moan and talk about how their 15 year old Win32 app won't work right ... there will be videos of idiots having problems with it because they are unwilling to change the mental model of how it fits together.


I probably have more experience with operating systems and interfaces in my left toe than you have in your entire lifetime. As such, I will not tolerate being labelled an "idiot" just because I see and articulate legitimate concerns about the Metro interface on the desktop.

Reply Score: 2

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

I probably have more experience with operating systems and interfaces in my left toe than you have in your entire lifetime. As such, I will not tolerate being labelled an "idiot" just because I see and articulate legitimate concerns about the Metro interface on the desktop.


I wasn't necessarily talking about you precious.

Edited 2012-03-20 17:01 UTC

Reply Score: 1

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Also "I have more experience" is a bold statement and also proves very little.

Experience != Competence in all cases.

And before you claim I am trolling, ask any dev ... (it is actually mentioned in the classic Software Engineering text "code complete"), there are plenty of Experienced devs that are utterly crap devs.

Edited 2012-03-20 17:32 UTC

Reply Score: 2

phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

Any change of UI will have some people confused. Most of Windows is based on "Muscle Memory" and repetition.


It's not about confusion. Confusion can be worked through. It's about "lack of discoverability". Just by looking at the Start Screen in Metro, without touching the keyboard/mouse can you explain how to:
- access the control panel
- access settings
- what the corners of the screen do
- what the sides of the screen do
- how to bring up a task list
- how to change screens
- etc

That is the major issue with Metro (and all tablet interface, to be honest). There's no indication anywhere onscreen about what things do.

Start a Metro app. Now, without touching the keyboard/mouse, can you explain:
- how to resize the app
- how to move the app
- how to close the app
- how to switch back to the Start Screen
- how to switch to another app

Nope, you can't, because there are no visual clues whatsoever on the screen for doing these kinds of things. There are no title bars. There are no window borders. There are no maximise/restore/minimise buttons. There are no indicators in the corners to show they are "hot". There are no indicators around the screen edges to show they do things. It's just the main app screen, and that's it.

Start a classic app. Now, without touching the keyboard/mouse, can you explain:
- how to get back to the Start screen
- how to switch to a Metro app

Nope, because there's no start button the screen. There's no list of Metro apps in the taskbar. There's no indication anywhere of how to switch between classic/metro.

All the nice visual clues that have been onscreen in Windows for decades are now gone. We're supposed to either "just know", or randomly click and swipe and button mash to find these things.

The same complaints were made about the Ribbon in Office 2007. The same complaints could be made about PhotoShop that has drastically changed it UI quite a few times in 10 years.


Very different issues. The ribbon at least has icons and text labels and whatnot to show you what you can do. The Metro interface? Nope, nothing.

People struggled for years with the Start Menu and the concept of "files". Should the start menu and files not exists because of these normal people?


Again, not relevant.

I am sorry by the start screen is pretty much like an android launcher or iPhone launcher ... and if my Dad can figure those out I am pretty sure other people can figure out the start screen.


Which works fine on a tablet, where big fat fingers can press on big squares, and everyone is used to swiping around randomly trying to figure out which multi-touch gesture works where (again, lack of discoverability).

But it doesn't work on a desktop, where people are used to getting hints about what works, what's doable, etc.

The problem with Metro on the desktop is that you can't just look at the screen, and figure out what you can do.

Reply Score: 3

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Well most UI people would probably disagree with you. It doesn't need a visual cue, just moving the mouse around is sufficient for discovery and just mashing the keyboard in frustration will teach you how the text things work.

Why should there be words and symbols littered everywhere to indicate something. Do you have labels on every door knob in your house? Do you have tabs on every page of a novel? Do you have labels on a lock saying "turn here"?

Most UI research (I actually went to a University where they actually had quite a few lecturers that spoke about it) is to get away from the WIMP paradaigm ... I was in a lecture where the lecturer was talking about a Kindle 3 years before it came out.

I am also of the opinion that most system configuration shouldn't need to be touched unless you need to go in there and change something for advanced use cases. If I need to change my network setting from DHCP ... I am doing something somewhat advanced compared to a normal user (and please don't say that is discoverable ... it at least 3 config windows in and is a very specific setting in a list in Windows).

tl;dr; version ... having X's on Windows and random symbols (Floppy Disk for Save ...) does not mean discoverability.

Discoverability means that without any prompting you or experience (you need to understand what the X does in the right hand corner). Yes a lot of it I "discovered by accident" ... but that is the entire point really.

Most Websites don't follow any similar UI paradigms, however there are design elements that are similar, such as "call to action".

I find it funny when developers think about UI design ... We fit our mental model around the computer, users shouldn't have to do that ... and that is how Windows currently works.

8 is an attempt to solve this, iOS and Android are other attempts. While they may not be perfect ... it is a start in the right direction IMHO.

Edited 2012-03-20 17:28 UTC

Reply Score: 2

phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

Why should there be words and symbols littered everywhere to indicate something. Do you have labels on every door knob in your house?


Don't need to, it's obvious that a door knob turns (or otherwise moves in some fashion) and can be used to pull/push a door.

Do you have tabs on every page of a novel?


Again, not needed, it's obvious that when you get to the end of a page, you flip over to the next one (just looking at the page numbers increasing is enough to discover this).

Do you have labels on a lock saying "turn here"?


Again, not needed, as the visual design of most locks shows you how they work.

tl;dr; version ... having X's on Windows and random symbols (Floppy Disk for Save ...) does not mean discoverability.

Discoverability means that without any prompting you or experience (you need to understand what the X does in the right hand corner). Yes a lot of it I "discovered by accident" ... but that is the entire point really.


Except, without any indications anywhere on the screen, how do you even know to try? That's the point. There are so many "hot points" in the Metro interface without any indication they are hot points.

Flinging a mouse around the screen is not "discoverability". It's randomness.

Mashing on the keyboard hoping you'll find some magic key combination is not "discoverability". It's randomness.

A good UI gives you hints about how to do things (icons, text labels, overlays, tooltips, etc). You don't need big red flags and bouncing balloons pointing you at things. But you do need some indication of what things do. There's absolutely no indicators anywhere in the Metor UI that the four corner are "hot"; that the two vertical sides are "hot"; that the top of the screen can be dragged down to kill apps; that you can even move/drag a window since there are no borders; etc.

Button mashing, mouse cursor flinging, swiping random number of fingers in random directions, these are not "the epitome of discoverability". These are indications that the UI has failed.

Exploration of a UI is ok and expected. But random flinging/mashing is not exploration, nor conducive to learning. The UI should give you information on how it works. Metro UI does not give you any information whatsoever about how to do anything.

Edited 2012-03-20 17:39 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Intuitiveness is just another word for familiarity. People will get the multi-touch gestures because its what they're used to on other touch screen systems. You can't tell me that Windows 7 is intuitive, it's just familiar. People know and understand it (to varying degrees.)

Windows 8's simple dilemma is that of familiarity. They need to do a good job of introducing people to the new concepts and paradigms. Of course, they can go a long way with some form of visual cues, and I believe they are already there (you just don't seem to credit them.)

Its my opinion that because of strong Windows Tablet sales, that the sell of Windows on a Laptop will be much easier. All OEMs are essentially hedging their bets on Windows 8 Tablets as their going forward strategy after the failure of Android tablets to really take off. This strong push, and subsequent sales will get these things into the hands of consumers. That in itself will familiarize people with the UI paradigms, so the transition to a Laptop running Windows 8 will be much alleviated.

You're failing, I think, to account for the fact that Metro is almost everywhere in Microsoft now. People use it on Xbox, Windows Phone, and now on Windows. The effect of all three of these will lead to a strong unified, cohesive look and familiarity.

If Windows 8 fails, it won't be because of Metro.

Another point, I don't think people quite grasp the significance of the Windows Store and how large of a market it opens up to people. It's inevitable Windows will sell. Hell, Vista sold 180 million copies its first year. A market of anything near that size will without question attract hoards of developers.

Reply Score: 2

dragossh Member since:
2008-12-16

Microsoft has been moving into a (in my opinion) right direction with Metro. After you learn an interface, you don't want everything to scream "I'm here look at me!!!!" We're moving into a kind of UI which stays out of your way until you need to do something. Now, the problem is exactly what you say: there is no way for a new user to know how the UI behaves. Nothing a tutorial can't fix.

Because most of Windows' interface is based on muscle memory, they decided to remove the redundant start menu (you have a start button on the keyboard and you move your mouse into the same spot), and replace it with app thumbnails, including the start screen. They also decided to not clutter the start screen with a search box because to search in an app, you bring up the charms bar and tap search. Or just mash the keyboard like in previous versions. The fact that people are clicking stuff in the start menu is their problem, because the default behavior of the Start menu has been the same since Vista: type to search.

Start a Metro app. Now, without touching the keyboard/mouse, can you explain:
- how to resize the app
- how to move the app
- how to close the app
- how to switch back to the Start Screen
- how to switch to another app


- Metro is a full-screen interface, so there is no resizing. Why would you expect resize in a non-windowed interface is beyond me.
- Drag & drop it from the app list. The drag at the top is a bit unusual, but it's pretty much like how Aero Snap behaves.
- Windows 8 memory management makes it so you don't have to close apps, and yes, the OS is better than you at managing memory.
- Start. All actions in Metro are designed with the idea that what can be done can also be reversed. Swiped an item by mistake? Swipe it again. Moved something? Move it back. Switched from an app to the start screen? Press start. Switched to the start screen from an app? Press start.
- Click its tile in the start screen, Alt-Tab, Win-Tab. It's the same as iPad, Android and previous windows versions.

Start a classic app. Now, without touching the keyboard/mouse, can you explain:
- how to get back to the Start screen
- how to switch to a Metro app

- Because Desktop is an app, you do it the same as with any other app. This is called consistency.
- The same as with any other app.

The problem with Metro on the desktop is that you can't just look at the screen, and figure out what you can do.

That's because you're supposed to look at the screen, and KNOW what you can do.

I don't think there's a discoverability problem as much as a training problem. Teach users how to use it, and you won't hear any complaints. Because once you know how to use it, it's the same across all apps. Besides, even in the old versions of Windows you can't expect people to know what will happen without experimenting a bit with it. The classic UI is not intuitive, it has been learned. Just like Metro can be.

Reply Score: 2

phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

That's because you're supposed to look at the screen, and KNOW what you can do.


Wow. Just ... wow. That right there sums up the issue, there's not much else to say. Other than to shake your head in wonderment at the utter stupidity of that sentence.

Reply Score: 2

bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

You should get modded +100 as that is EXACTLY what i'm hearing from my customers when they try to use metro on the CP preview box in the shop. its nothing but frustration because they are all "Where is the button? How do I get this out of the way? How do I get back? Where is the documents? How do I get to start over? How do I make this smaller?"

On cell phones people expect to be lost because every one they get is 100% different than the last one unless they stick with a brand like Apple and most don't. But on the desktop they KNOW where things are and some basic "rules" that will let them fumble their way through and all those rules have been thrown under a bus.

Heck I've been building PCs since before there even was a Windows and with metro i tried my usual "Pretend you are one of your customers" and did just like they would and jumped right on in and frankly within 10 minutes I was frustrated too as the whole thing was "click like crazy" with no real logic or form, it was just all over the place.

So this is NOT about being a "new thing" its about being practically assaulted by the OS devs because they refuse to give us even a hint about what they want us to do or how to do it!

Reply Score: 1

phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

Re-read my post. It has nothing to do with "what you should already know", and everything to do with "there's no indication anywhere of what you should do".

IOW, there's no discoverability. If you were to sit someone down who hadn't used Windows before, they'd be stuck. If you were to sit someone down who'd never used a tablet of any kind before, they'd be stuck.

With the "classic desktop" of pre-Win7, there's a big "START" button on the screen, that kind of draws you toward clicking on it in order to "start" doing things. That's gone in the "classic desktop" of Win8.

With the login screen of previous systems, there were either big hints (Press CTRL+ALT+DEL to Login) or big icons on the screen for you click on, with words explaining what to do. With Win8, it's just a clock. No hints. No explanations. No icons. Just a clock.

With the Start menu in Vista/7, there's at least a hint that you can start typing to find things. With the Start screen in 8, there's nothing of the sort.

That's what I'm talking about. Lack of discoverability or hints of what to do, what things do, in the interface. The worst is the "four corners" things, as there's absolutely no way to know that without reading about it online. No little super-imposed icons. No little text hints anywhere. No little bubbles popping up like in XP. Nothing. You're just supposed to know that you can hover the mouse in the corners to make things happen.

Reply Score: 2

lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Just mashing the keyboard gives results with the start screen.

Reply Score: 2

dragossh Member since:
2008-12-16

With the "classic desktop" of pre-Win7, there's a big "START" button on the screen, that kind of draws you toward clicking on it in order to "start" doing things. That's gone in the "classic desktop" of Win8.

Actually the start label has been gone since Vista. An orb with the product logo isn't intuitive. It seems that way because we're familiar with the UI.

With the login screen of previous systems, there were either big hints (Press CTRL+ALT+DEL to Login) or big icons on the screen for you click on, with words explaining what to do. With Win8, it's just a clock. No hints. No explanations. No icons. Just a clock.

Tablets.

With the Start menu in Vista/7, there's at least a hint that you can start typing to find things. With the Start screen in 8, there's nothing of the sort.

Because you can use the Search function or type to search like in Vista and 7.

No little super-imposed icons. No little text hints anywhere. No little bubbles popping up like in XP.

Well, at least it doesn't SCREAM and lets me actually work now :-)

Reply Score: 2

codewrangler Member since:
2010-01-28

Nice Post! I completely agree with your analysis....Windows 8 is looking like another Vista...but worse...

Reply Score: 1

WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

And if it's about "having to switch constantly from Start Screen to classic


Well, assuming they release some decent applications under Metro (I'm sure they will eventually), it's more about having to switch between classic and metro apps. I haven't used the OS myself yet, but I assume there's a way to ALT+TAB/quick switch between a classic app and a metro app. If not, it's going to suck. And what if you need to have a metro and classic app on the screen at the same time? Is this even possible without dual monitors? This whole having two different desktops in the same OS seems like a clusterf**k of immense proportions. I mean, Linux distros may come with half a dozen desktop environments, but even those guys have enough common sense not to run more than one at the same time ;)

For the record, I don't hate Windows 8, esp since I haven't used it. And I'm even excited about it on tablets and (hopefully soon) phones. But I remain pessimistic about it on desktops ...

Edited 2012-03-20 00:13 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

And I'm even excited about it on tablets and (hopefully soon) phones.


It's truly a great thing on a phone, and to me it brings the device back to its roots as a simple but powerful communications tool, rather than trying to be a tiny computer. The phone software in particular is nothing short of amazing, and doesn't crash every other call like my last two Android phones. It still has the power to be that little computer too though, with RDP, a robust and perfectly integrated PIM suite, excellent productivity tools like Microsoft Office, and of course some really good games.

It's lacking in some areas, but I think the only three things I miss from Android are drag-and-drop file syncing, tethering and the Draw Something game. Now that I don't carry a laptop anymore, I don't miss the tethering so much, and a game isn't all that important. If Microsoft will break WP7 free from Zune (which from what I've read may happen soon) I'll be fully satisfied with my phone.

Reply Score: 2

WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

The phone software in particular is nothing short of amazing, and doesn't crash every other call like my last two Android phones.


Maybe you should stop buying shitty Android phones ;) Have never had that problem with either of mine.

As for Windows Phone, the Zune dependency that you mentioned is a deal breaker for me. As much as I hate iTunes, I hate the Zune software even more, and would never install it again. If they made WP8 PC free, and assuming the Google Voice integration was solid enough, I would seriously consider it, esp if it could run Windows 8 metro apps.

Reply Score: 2

Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

Maybe you should stop buying shitty Android phones ;) Have never had that problem with either of mine.


I'll give you that on the first one, it was a Motorola Cliq and while I loved the design of the phone (especially the keyboard) the rest of it was buggy as hell. My second Android phone though, was the MyTouch 4G, a top tier phone when I got it. It was an excellent device, and the ONLY problem I ever had with it was the phone software often crashing or locking up during a call. I thought it was a dropped call (rare on T-Mobile where I live) but every time it was the phone software that had frozen, or less often the entire phone rebooted. I've had zero problems with the core apps on the Windows phone; I've had a couple of third party apps go south but that is to be expected on any platform.


As for Windows Phone, the Zune dependency that you mentioned is a deal breaker for me. As much as I hate iTunes, I hate the Zune software even more, and would never install it again. If they made WP8 PC free, and assuming the Google Voice integration was solid enough, I would seriously consider it, esp if it could run Windows 8 metro apps.


You're right on the money there, and it was my only real concern when switching platforms. Still, I have only synced to Zune twice, once on initial setup so I could get the Mango update, and once to copy over some videos so I wouldn't be bored on a planned downtime night at work.

Something you may not know about the Zune music service: It's subscription based but if you buy an album or song you get DRM free MP3s that will simultaneously sync to the phone and the Zune software. From there I can copy them to an MP3 CD for the truck or to my MP3 player for a jog. The selection isn't the best but there's enough indie and obscure music to suit my odd tastes. The desktop software sucks, but it's still better than iTunes.

Reply Score: 2

WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

The (Zune) desktop software sucks, but it's still better than iTunes.


I've heard this said a lot in defense of Zune, but even if we agreed on this point, that's like saying the shit I took last night is better than the one I took this morning. When you're comparing against one of the worst pieces of software ever written for the Windows platform, your standards are not very high. It's like seeing two butt-ugly chicks side-by-side and trying to determine which one is uglier than the other. In the end, if you wouldn't f**k either one of them, even using somebody else's penis, does it really matter?

Point being, as long as Zune is required, Windows Phone is dead to me. I'd rather go back to using a landline phone than to even run that piece of crap in a VM.

Reply Score: 2

phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

I haven't used the OS myself yet, but I assume there's a way to ALT+TAB/quick switch between a classic app and a metro app.


I haven't tested ALT+Tab, and the "in-depth" review over at anandtech doesn't mention it (or else I missed it), but they do mention that in the Metro "running apps" list, the "classic desktop" is a single app, no matter how many classic apps you have running.

So, if you have 5 classic apps running in the classic desktop, then switch to a Metro app, there's no way to get back a specific classic app (via the Metro GUI). You have to:
- bring up the running apps list
- click on the classic desktop app
- click on the taskbar icon to switch to the app

If not, it's going to suck. And what if you need to have a metro and classic app on the screen at the same time? Is this even possible without dual monitors?


No. It's either/or. You can only "snap" two Metro apps onscreen at once. Or you can view the classic desktop. But not both at the same time on the same monitor.

Reply Score: 3

fran Member since:
2010-08-06


Then of course there are types of applications that simply require classical UIs


Yeah the tech journos seems to totally ignore the existence of the Windows 8 classical UI, except a few.

Reply Score: 2

phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

Note: also research all the key and mouse bindings associated with the Metro interface, you're up to some surprises.


And that's the problem with Metro right there: you have to research all the key and mouse bindings! There's no way to discover them easily while using Metro with a keyboard and a mouse.

This is also my biggest complaint about multi-touch gestures: there's no easy way to discover them.

Reply Score: 2

What is your definition of usable?
by modmans2ndcoming on Tue 20th Mar 2012 00:06 UTC
modmans2ndcoming
Member since:
2005-11-09

Right now on my laptop it is very usable. they need to add track pad scrolling left and right to all their menus , but other than that, it is pretty much already there.

Reply Score: 2

WoA tablet please
by ronaldst on Tue 20th Mar 2012 00:17 UTC
ronaldst
Member since:
2005-06-29

The problem with Windows 8 is about first impressions. The OS is ok but the included apps were pretty empty and non-usable. I wish MS would regularly update them. Unlike the Windows 7 beta, I bet most people will just install Windows 8 consumer preview, try it once and just let it rot in it's own partition. Give people access to XBL/Zune Pass. Consumer preview without the consumer stuff isn't very useful. Sometimes the scroll bars are easy to miss. And MS needs to add back mouse button support into Metro apps.

Love the full screen IE10. It feels so right. It's going to be an interesting OS release.

Reply Score: 2

RE: WoA tablet please
by Drumhellar on Tue 20th Mar 2012 06:31 UTC in reply to "WoA tablet please"
Drumhellar Member since:
2005-07-12

Well, except the OS and many of the apps have received updates.
And there is the Windows Marketplace, which has lots of free apps available, which also get updated.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by Drumhellar
by Drumhellar on Tue 20th Mar 2012 01:57 UTC
Drumhellar
Member since:
2005-07-12

Ya know, I'm very satisfied with the start screen. I dont' spend much time at all in the metro apps, but the classic desktop + start screen work great. I doubt they'll abandon the classic interface, as there are just too many use cases that can't be metro-ized effectively.

I do hope that they fix the bugginess. Occasionally, it'll get stuck in a metro app, or on the start screen, and while I can launch the task manager, I can't get to it because I can't switch from whatever is on screen, so the only real way to get out is to do a hard restart.

Edited 2012-03-20 01:59 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by Drumhellar
by Morgan on Tue 20th Mar 2012 07:42 UTC in reply to "Comment by Drumhellar"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

I know it sounds simple, but have you tried dragging from the top of the screen to the bottom? The metaphor is grabbing the top edge of the app and dropping it off the bottom edge of the desktop, which is silly to me but it's how I've gotten out of some apps without obvious escape measures. It works with the Classic desktop too, which apparently is treated as a sandboxed app.

Now that I think about it, that same gesture when done on an Android or iOS touch screen device will pull down the notification tray. I wonder how many first time Windows 8 Tablet users will inadvertently close the app they are in when all they wanted to do was check for messages?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by Drumhellar
by n4cer on Tue 20th Mar 2012 13:37 UTC in reply to "Comment by Drumhellar"
n4cer Member since:
2005-07-06

I do hope that they fix the bugginess. Occasionally, it'll get stuck in a metro app, or on the start screen, and while I can launch the task manager, I can't get to it because I can't switch from whatever is on screen, so the only real way to get out is to do a hard restart.


Try Alt+F4 or dragging the app to the bottom of the screen (mouse cursor turns into a hand at the top of the screen, then you may drag down to close the app).

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by Drumhellar
by Drumhellar on Tue 20th Mar 2012 19:17 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by Drumhellar"
Drumhellar Member since:
2005-07-12

Well of course I tried alt-f4. And dragging the app out.

The other stuff (Charms bar, metro task switcher, volume indicator) all appear properly, but won't work (i.e. the task switcher wont' move me to another app or the desktop).

Using alt-tab shows the task switcher, but if I pick another window, it won't switch me. Hitting ctrl-alt-del brings up the correct screen, but selecting any of those options dumps me back to the broken app.

It is a bug.

Reply Score: 2

Good News
by belennabor on Tue 20th Mar 2012 08:40 UTC
belennabor
Member since:
2012-03-20

It is very good news for all the user. I hope so IT will be better than Windows 7.

Edited 2012-03-20 08:41 UTC

Reply Score: 1

It should be worth noting
by Nelson on Tue 20th Mar 2012 12:36 UTC
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

That while Windows 8 itself is in Beta, a lot of the apps it was shipped with are of Preview quality, akin to last September's BUILD release. So I fully expect a dramatic improvement in the quality of the apps by the time the Release Candidate approaches.

Windows 8 surely has some usability issues, but none of them are so insurmountable that they'll persist to launch. The Developer Preview had even worse issues, which were almost all addressed.

It's not so much a lack of intuitiveness, as much as it is some frustrating end to end scenarios. A lot of these things can be alleviated, and I have no doubt they will. Basically, the amount they need to fix is relatively small to make this a success.

Reply Score: 2

October is doable
by sydbarrett74 on Tue 20th Mar 2012 14:23 UTC
sydbarrett74
Member since:
2007-07-24

People contend that there's a lot of polishing MS needs to do before RTM this summer and general availability in October, but one should be heartened by the difference between September's Developer Preview and last month's Consumer Preview. I've noticed huge advances in terms of stability and usability, so why can't there be similar strides in the next 4-5 months? As far as having to switch between Metro and the classic desktop, I think the whole thing is overblown. Switching is already pretty smooth, taking less than a second, and by RTM it will be further refined. People need to stop bitching so much.

Reply Score: 2

How Real People Will Use Windows 8
by Tony Swash on Tue 20th Mar 2012 15:45 UTC
Tony Swash
Member since:
2009-08-22

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4boTbv9_nU

I wonder if Windows 8 might turn out to be the most complex suicide note ever written?

Reply Score: 4

Cinnamon
by Jason Bourne on Tue 20th Mar 2012 16:13 UTC
Jason Bourne
Member since:
2007-06-02

Have I ever told you guys that Cinnamon is the future of desktop computing? For what I've seen, Windows 8 will repeat Vista fiasco.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Cinnamon
by Luminair on Wed 21st Mar 2012 17:27 UTC in reply to "Cinnamon"
Luminair Member since:
2007-03-30

its true! everything but cinnamon is replacing the mouse trap. betting hard against the status quo. what a dangerous game to play with so much at stake.

I think there are people at microsoft who will lose their heads like the guy in "the last crusade" who didnt duck

Reply Score: 2

Comment by ScannerAssy
by ScannerAssy on Tue 20th Mar 2012 22:45 UTC
ScannerAssy
Member since:
2006-07-19

METRO UI should be killed from desktop OS ASAP, it make no sense for a professionnal use. MS should reserved it for tablets devices. If the next computer I buy have windows 8 with metro, I'll definetly ask for a refund right away !!!

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by ScannerAssy
by lucas_maximus on Wed 21st Mar 2012 01:38 UTC in reply to "Comment by ScannerAssy"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Windows Refund Hero. How about not buying a PC with Windows 8 on it?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by ScannerAssy
by phoenix on Wed 21st Mar 2012 21:10 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by ScannerAssy"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

Good luck with that.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by ScannerAssy
by lucas_maximus on Thu 22nd Mar 2012 11:16 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by ScannerAssy"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

This is what I find funny.

People go out of their way to bitch and moan about Windows and then buy a PC with it on ... and then complain about it.

If they actually cared that much, they would go out of their way to buy a PC without Windows. I can only assume that they really don't care that much.

Usually they make various excuses, like they don't have a credit card or some such excuses.

I live in Spain and It is almost impossible to get a uk-GB keyboard and some other specialist stuff. I get a chap in Gibraltar to order me the kit in from the UK. I don't need a credit card ... I just had to talk to the shop owner and I pay a little above the going rate to make it worthwhile.

It was a little extra work than just putting up with what I could get from conveniece.But if you are the minority you should be supporting those businesses that cater for your niche.

Just to clarify, I still build my own systems ... and I usually get my laptop with no OS from a guy that sells refurb business laptops (Dell Latitudes and/or Thinkpads) and I buy two copies of Windows. I use Windows Professional Editions.

Edited 2012-03-22 11:25 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by ScannerAssy
by bassbeast on Fri 23rd Mar 2012 10:29 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by ScannerAssy"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

So you are saying people should buy used junk (Sorry dude but I sell PCs too and laptops are the LAST thing you should want to recycle, right up there with underwear IMHO for the amount of nasty funk you find in those things) rather than actually get something with a warranty? i'm sorry but that is simply unacceptable.

I build machines all day but I too have to buy OEM when it comes to laptops and you HAVE to take what you can get and unless you are willing to pay frankly insane prices for "workstations" which is a codeword for 'We're gonna charge you out the ying yang for something that isn't any better built than your average inspiron' you really don't get a choice. I wanted a 12 inch netbook as that was the form factor I needed. my choices were Win 7 HP or...yeah that was it, Win 7 HP. The 15 inchers you can get Pro, the 10 inchers come with Starter, but 12 inch was Win 7 HP.

That is why i'm telling my customers to buy now and batten down the hatches, we are all gonna just bypass Win 8 entirely. I've bought some extra copies of Win 7, next week i'll finish the quad for the youngest boy and the hexacore for the oldest and i just finished my own hexacore and bought a netbook ALL so I could completely avoid Win 8. I have a feeling I'm gonna be spending a good year and a half stripping that thing off of PCs, just as I spent a year and a half stripping Vista off machines before. I have a spindle at the shop with OEM Vista discs because nobody wanted them, I have a feeling after Oct its gonna have a friend.

But in the end most folks simply have to take what they can get, although most don't try to get their money back for the OS but instead bring it to someone like me. While I only hope the OEMs offer downgrade rights like with Vista i so do NOT want to spend another year calling OEMs getting keys, in fact i think this time i'll charge a 30% premium if i have to call an OEM as I'm not dealing with "Peggy" anymore dang it!

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Comment by ScannerAssy
by lucas_maximus on Fri 23rd Mar 2012 13:20 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by ScannerAssy"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

So you are saying people should buy used junk (Sorry dude but I sell PCs too and laptops are the LAST thing you should want to recycle, right up there with underwear IMHO for the amount of nasty funk you find in those things) rather than actually get something with a warranty? i'm sorry but that is simply unacceptable.


When did I say that?

It was a little extra work than just putting up with what I could get from conveniece.

But if you are the minority you should be supporting those businesses that cater for your niche.


For those that really care want a Linux machine, they should buy from businesses that cater for their niche.

iXsystems for example used to produce Workstations with FreeBSD installed on them. System 76 produces machines that support linux and have it installed out of the box.

If you don't support the businesses that cater for your niche and instead, buy a machine from Dell you are doing yourself a dis-service. Because you are basically telling Dell "I will buy this even though it isn't really want I wanted".

So yeah, you someone can be a Windows Refund Hero, but you are actually hurting businesses that actually cater for what you actually want to buy because you couldn't be arsed to go out of your way a little bit.

Edited 2012-03-23 13:24 UTC

Reply Score: 2