Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 9th Apr 2012 14:38 UTC
PDAs, Cellphones, Wireless "Windows Phone is fighting an uphill battle. Microsoft still has work to do in terms of user experience and the big hardware partners like HTC and Samsung are starting to lose interest and putting in only token efforts. But Nokia is keeping the platform in the conversation. We're not willing to consign Windows Phone to the same level of hopelessness as the open-source webOS or the out-to-pasture BB OS precisely because Nokia is too big and too active a partner." Having a big partner is by no means a guarantee. Microsoft is doing whatever it can - both legal and should-not-be-legal - to get people to buy Windows Phone, and it isn't working. A brand only gets you so far - you need a compelling product, too, and as much as I like Windows Phone, it's just not there yet compared to iOS and Android.
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Doomed
by reduz on Mon 9th Apr 2012 15:04 UTC
reduz
Member since:
2006-02-25

"Windows" is a negative brand. Tablets or Macs wouldn't be so popular otherwise. People uses Windows because they have to, not because they like it.
They should have gone with "XPhone" or something like that, but now they are doomed. To make matters worse, it seems Windows 8 will replace Windows Phone so their long term strategy is suicidal.
The question is, when is Ballmer going to resign?

Edited 2012-04-09 15:05 UTC

Reply Score: 11

RE: Doomed
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 9th Apr 2012 15:13 UTC in reply to "Doomed"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

They should have moved to a new name - and only one comes to mind: Metro.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Doomed
by gonzo on Mon 9th Apr 2012 15:56 UTC in reply to "Doomed"
gonzo Member since:
2005-11-10

That's not true. I use Windows because I like it.

IIS? Check. Apache? Check. Photoshop? Check. Visual Studio? Check. MySQL? Check. SQL Server? Check. Games? Check. MS Office? Check.

All popular apps, apps that matter, are there. No other OS gives you that.

Edited 2012-04-09 15:58 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Doomed
by jared_wilkes on Mon 9th Apr 2012 16:10 UTC in reply to "RE: Doomed"
jared_wilkes Member since:
2011-04-25

You listed one app exclusive to Windows.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Doomed
by gonzo on Mon 9th Apr 2012 16:21 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Doomed"
gonzo Member since:
2005-11-10

Which one? "Games"? :-) Or Visual Studio? Or SQL Server? IIS, perhaps?

Oh, you want more?

IE? Check. Safari? Check. Chrome? Check. Firefox? Check. Opera? Check.

No virtual machine or some kind of emulator required.

Please.

Edited 2012-04-09 16:21 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Doomed
by leech on Mon 9th Apr 2012 23:23 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Doomed"
leech Member since:
2006-01-10

Which one? "Games"? :-) Or Visual Studio? Or SQL Server? IIS, perhaps?

Oh, you want more?

IE? Check. Safari? Check. Chrome? Check. Firefox? Check. Opera? Check.

No virtual machine or some kind of emulator required.

Please.


Someone willingly uses IIS or IE these days?

Most of the things you mentioned run better and are far easier to set up on Linux or other Unix platform.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Doomed
by gonzo on Tue 10th Apr 2012 02:57 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Doomed"
gonzo Member since:
2005-11-10

IIS? Yes, very much in biz environments. By the way, don't see anything wrong with it, especially with 7/7.5. Next version (Server 8) is even better, many new features for true throttling and large scale sites.

IE? You may want to check browser market share.

It's not that I use it (I use Firefox), but others do. I have to test my web pages in IE too. And in Safari, etc. Every important browser is available on Windows.

Most of the things you mentioned run better and are far easier to set up on Linux or other Unix platform.


Yeah, right..

Edited 2012-04-10 03:02 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Doomed
by reduz on Mon 9th Apr 2012 16:21 UTC in reply to "RE: Doomed"
reduz Member since:
2006-02-25

You are not a prime example of a typical Windows user, please don't assume the rest of the world is like you.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Doomed
by gonzo on Mon 9th Apr 2012 16:23 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Doomed"
gonzo Member since:
2005-11-10

You are the one making assumptions, pal. Joe Sixpack wants it all. Do not underestimate good ol' Joe.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Doomed
by reduz on Mon 9th Apr 2012 16:27 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Doomed"
reduz Member since:
2006-02-25

Good old Joe is not buying Windows Phone, that's not an assumption.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Doomed
by gonzo on Mon 9th Apr 2012 16:33 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Doomed"
gonzo Member since:
2005-11-10

You were talking about Macs are popular and how "people use Windows because they have to", so I guess you were talking about Windows (desktop), not Windows Phone.

Which one is it now?

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Doomed
by reduz on Mon 9th Apr 2012 16:48 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Doomed"
reduz Member since:
2006-02-25

The assumption is simple, please think a little and do some reasoning instead of being a troll.

I think we can agree on the following:

1) Most people that uses macs do it by choice, hence Apple is cool.
2) People loves Google and also use their services by choice, hence Google is cool.
3) Some people may love Windows (like you), but most don't use it by choice. It either comes pre-installed or runs applications or games needed, hence why Windows is not "cool". It's a different story with XBox brand.

So, the assumption is that Microsoft Windows brand is not "cool enough" for people to feel the need to get it, or bet on it, despite the OS being superior or the hardware good.
People, in contrast, did bet on Google when the market was 90% iPhone and Symbian, the same way people did bet on XBox when Sony and Nintendo had most of the cake.

So it pretty much comes down to that, lack of consumer loyalty towards the Windows brand.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Doomed
by gonzo on Mon 9th Apr 2012 16:51 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Doomed"
gonzo Member since:
2005-11-10

3) Some people may love Windows (like you), but most don't use it by choice. It either comes pre-installed


I don't understand. Where does it come preinstalled? On Macs?

or runs applications or games needed, hence why Windows is not "cool".


It runs apps/games needed, hence it is not "cool"???

WTF?

Edited 2012-04-09 16:52 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Doomed
by reduz on Mon 9th Apr 2012 16:26 UTC in reply to "RE: Doomed"
reduz Member since:
2006-02-25

You still don't get it, if everyone was like you, Windows Phone would be a critical success.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Doomed
by gonzo on Mon 9th Apr 2012 16:28 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Doomed"
gonzo Member since:
2005-11-10

Nope, I use Android phone (Samsung). Same reason: acceptable price and user experience, plenty of applications.

See, again you are making wrong assumptions.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Doomed
by aligatro on Mon 9th Apr 2012 17:50 UTC in reply to "RE: Doomed"
aligatro Member since:
2010-01-28

"That's not true. I use Windows because I like it.

IIS? Check. Apache? Check. Photoshop? Check. Visual Studio? Check. MySQL? Check. SQL Server? Check. Games? Check. MS Office? Check.

All popular apps, apps that matter, are there. No other OS gives you that. "

Who decides which of apps matter? You?

Apache, Photoshop, MySQL, Games(yes, games) and MS Office I can get those on Mac OS X. The only one I really miss is Visual Studio, but I use eclipse now, so it doesn't matter. Also, there is a way to install many opensource console and gui apps that are available for Linux. OS X has xserver and ssh client installed out of the box and I can easily run remote GUI applications on my server while controlling GUI on OS X.

Windows is a design mess compared to Mac OS X. Retarded and limited console, application files are stored all over the place when installed, registry, drive letters, need to inject new drivers/reinstall windows when moving to another hardware. No built-in and easy way to create full backup and then clone it to second partition. Idiotic analog of symlink that doesn't work with some applications properly.(IIS for example)

So, keep using your windows while I enjoy my unix-based hackintosh OS X. If mac hardware was the same price as pc hardware, Windows would probably no longer be dominant OS on the market. Unfortunately, Apple is a hardware company and get their profits from hardware.

Edited 2012-04-09 17:52 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Doomed
by gonzo on Mon 9th Apr 2012 19:34 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Doomed"
gonzo Member since:
2005-11-10

Who decides which of apps matter? You?


Why do you think people buy iPhone and Android and not WP7?

Could it be because of all those apps and games?

So, you can run Eclipse. I can run both Eclipse and Visual Studio. Or, I can run Safari, IE, Chrome, Firefox and Opera, easily, no emulator/VM needed. Can you?

It's that simple.

Retarded and limited console

Actually, PowerShell is great.

application files are stored all over the place when installed,


What?

registry,

What about it?

Since Vista, parts of registry are virtualized and stored in user's profile. Never had problems with registry. I know people run those optimizers, I never did, never had any problems.

drive letters,

Yes. So?

need to inject new drivers/reinstall windows when moving to another hardware.


Don't know about that, I moved recently to new desktop and all drivers were there, Windows 7 installed them for me.

But then, people usually just buy new computers with Windows pre-installed, all drivers are already there.

How often people move to new hardware anyway? Oh, please.

No built-in and easy way to create full backup and then clone it to second partition.


Are you serious?

Idiotic analog of symlink that doesn't work with some applications properly.(IIS for example)

Not sure what you mean? Care to explain?

Edited 2012-04-09 19:41 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Doomed
by aligatro on Tue 10th Apr 2012 03:48 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Doomed"
aligatro Member since:
2010-01-28


[q]
Why do you think people buy iPhone and Android and not WP7?

Could it be because of all those apps and games?

So, you can run Eclipse. I can run both Eclipse and Visual Studio. Or, I can run Safari, IE, Chrome, Firefox and Opera, easily, no emulator/VM needed. Can you?

It's that simple.


I can run unix gnu software on my OS X. Can you run gnu software without Cygwin on Windows? And oh yea it's my dream to use the worst browser on the market.(IE) I can easily run other browsers without "no emulator/VM needed".



What?


Some of the program is stored in program files. Other part could be somewhere in windows folder. Most of them write into registry. Making it very hard to move to another computer without breaking it. On mac whole program is contained inside one(!) folder. That folder is also acting as executable. It's super easy to delete, copy or move to another computer.



What about it?

Since Vista, parts of registry are virtualized and stored in user's profile. Never had problems with registry. I know people run those optimizers, I never did, never had any problems.


Part of the problem is what described above this question. "Most of them write into registry. Making it very hard to move to another computer without breaking it" Also, should something happen to it, not only will you be required to reinstall programs again, you might also get un-bootable system.


drive letters,

Yes. So?

When everything is under root, it's much better approach than drive letters. Your whole system appears as if it was on one big drive, while in reality some folders point to other partitions. On windows some programs force you to install most/full of the program to C drive. And you can only only can only install operating system to one letter drive.

Don't know about OS X, but Linux can be installed on multiple partitions just fine, because it doesn't care about letters only paths. Can you type relative paths with drive letters? I bet you can't.



Don't know about that, I moved recently to new desktop and all drivers were there, Windows 7 installed them for me.

But then, people usually just buy new computers with Windows pre-installed, all drivers are already there.

How often people move to new hardware anyway? Oh, please.


I very often get BSOD error when I move to new hardware. Sometimes it moves smoothly, but most of the time it doesn't. I upgrade computer parts about once every 1-3 years. I have 4 computers at home and when it's time to upgrade I also try to get rid of slowest pc.

slowest -> slower -> fast -> fastest.

So, I basically move slower to slowest, fast to slower, and new pc to fastest.

Also, sometimes I need to boot from harddrive from another pc. For example, when I need some program that is hard to move because of all settings and files.



Are you serious?


Ok fine they finally added it to all editions for windows 7, but still crippled(no backup over network) it for editions cheaper than "Professional". Most laptops and home pcs come with "Home Basic" or "Home Premium". Yea, you can move backup to network share and then back when needed, but it's all pain in the neck.

On OS X, disk utility creates iso-like image that can be mounted as disk partition that you can easily edit to your liking. You can restore it to usb drive or any partition on your hard drive and then boot from that.

That's actually a very nice feature of OS X. Most programs come in DMG images that have self-check mechanism for corruption. You mount them as partition and then copy application(usually a window pops up to let you drag app to app folder) to application folder and you are done installing it.


Not sure what you mean? Care to explain?


When I tried it, it simply didn't work.(files actually linked, but IIS failed to work) I needed to list files from symlinked folder into the webpage. While I could easily to the same on apache linux. So, it left me with impression that it might fail with another program.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Doomed
by gonzo on Tue 10th Apr 2012 04:17 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Doomed"
gonzo Member since:
2005-11-10

I can run unix gnu software on my OS X. Can you run gnu software without Cygwin on Windows?


haha, GNU SOFTWARE :-) Please. Let's talk about software that matters.

Windows has it all. If it didn't it would not have ~85-90% desktop market share.

And oh yea it's my dream to use the worst browser on the market.(IE) I can easily run other browsers without "no emulator/VM needed".


Yes, but many people do web design, etc. Pages must be tested in IE.





What?


Some of the program is stored in program files. Other part could be somewhere in windows folder.

Some programs do that. Most don't. But, even so.. so what?

Most of them write into registry. Making it very hard to move to another computer without breaking it. On mac whole program is contained inside one(!) folder.

Yes, but people DO NOT move to different computers that often.


Part of the problem is what described above this question. "Most of them write into registry. Making it very hard to move to another computer without
breaking it"


Not an issue since people simply DO NOT move to different computers that often.


Also, should something happen to it, not only will you be required to reinstall programs again, you might also get un-bootable system.


Should something happen to it, you can use system restore. Restore points are created automatically, when any significat change to the system (drivers installed, software installed, Windows updates, etc) is taking place.

When everything is under root, it's much better approach than drive letters. Your whole system appears as if it was on one big drive, while in reality some folders point to other partitions.

Not an importan issue, again. But you can mount drives on Windows at different points too, you know?

On windows some programs force you to install most/full of the program to C drive.

Some programs... yeah, like those from 15 years ago, right? How many of them are still important?

And you can only only can only install operating system to one letter drive.

So? What is the problem there?


Don't know about OS X, but Linux can be installed on multiple partitions just fine, because it doesn't care about letters only paths.

Windows can be installed to multiple partitions too.

Can you type relative paths with drive letters? I bet you can't.


So? How is that important issue? It's not.

I very often get BSOD error when I move to new hardware. Sometimes it moves smoothly, but most of the time it doesn't. I upgrade computer parts about once every 1-3 years. I have 4 computers at home and when it's time to upgrade I also try to get rid of slowest pc.

I think you're just making stuff up. I used to upgrade all my hardware (except mainboard and CPU) very often too, never had any problems.

But.. how often do you upgrade Macs? Like, you change what video card, or mainboard...? Oh, really?

Also, sometimes I need to boot from harddrive from another pc. For example, when I need some program that is hard to move because of all settings and files.


I am not sure myself, but I think Windows too can be booted from external drives, even USB keys. Not sure though, haven't tried it. But I think it can, or it's coming to Win 8.

Again, over and over again you're talking about things that majority of people just don't do very often, if ever.

When I tried it, it simply didn't work.(files actually linked, but IIS failed to work) I needed to list files from symlinked folder into the webpage.

I haven't tried it and am too lazy to do it now, but even if it fails, then just copy your web folder to where it works. Easily solved problem. (Having said that, I'd have to confirm that symlinks in IIS don't work).

See, the problem is, not a single issue you listed is a deal breaker and you can EASILY work around it.

BUT when you *need* some specific software, software that is widely used (SQL Server or Mass Effect, for example) then it is a deal breaker if you can't have it without spending days to maybe make it work and when it finally does, then it breaks after 5 minutes, etc.

Edited 2012-04-10 04:20 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Doomed
by aligatro on Tue 10th Apr 2012 06:35 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Doomed"
aligatro Member since:
2010-01-28

If you don't care about those things I listed it doesn't mean that others don't care. Mac os x has enough commercial and non-commercial software for my needs. Most of the windows software is crapware and bloatware anyways.

"Yes, but many people do web design, etc. Pages must be tested in IE. "

Those who need it for their jobs use windows at work and whatever OS at home.

"Yes, but people DO NOT move to different computers that often. "
"Not an issue since people simply DO NOT move to different computers that often. "

Maybe you don't, but others do. It's a very nice design to keep whole program in one folder, as you can move it anywhere on partition, even different partition and it will not break.


"Should something happen to it, you can use system restore. Restore points are created automatically, when any significat change to the system (drivers installed, software installed, Windows updates, etc) is taking place. "

It doesn't make it excusable to have it poorly designed like that.

"Not an importan issue, again. But you can mount drives on Windows at different points too, you know? "

Your opinion doesn't make it unimportant.

"Windows can be installed to multiple partitions too. "

Not from the installer. And I am not talking about striping or raid setup.

"
I think you're just making stuff up. I used to upgrade all my hardware (except mainboard and CPU) very often too, never had any problems.

But.. how often do you upgrade Macs? Like, you change what video card, or mainboard...? Oh, really? "

1. I build my own pcs.
2. I never said I own Apple hardware. My OS X runs on pc hardware.
3. "(except mainboard and CPU)" That's exactly why you never had BSODs. I switch hard-drives between different pcs and usually upgrade motherboards and cpus.

"I am not sure myself, but I think Windows too can be booted from external drives, even USB keys. Not sure though, haven't tried it. But I think it can, or it's coming to Win 8. "

Yea, you would have to tweak it to make it work. While OS X just loads all drivers, so no need to tweak.


"BUT when you *need* some specific software, software that is widely used (SQL Server or Mass Effect, for example) then it is a deal breaker if you can't have it without spending days to maybe make it work and when it finally does, then it breaks after 5 minutes, etc. "

Why would anyone install SQL server on desktop version of windows? And there are other better cross-platform SQL servers than MS SQL. Those who need specific software either dual-boot or use emulator. I don't see a problem with using emulator to be honest. On my hardware it works almost as fast as native boot. Yes, it costs extra money if you want to have it legally, but it's not that big of a deal. And old windows licenses can be reused for emulator as long as they are not OEM.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Doomed
by gonzo on Tue 10th Apr 2012 13:19 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Doomed"
gonzo Member since:
2005-11-10

Most of the windows software is crapware and bloatware anyways.

No.

Those who need it for their jobs use windows at work and whatever OS at home.

Most people use Windows at home.

Maybe you don't, but others do.

What others are you talking about, when Windows still hold like 85-90% of desktop market?

It doesn't make it excusable to have it poorly designed like that.

What is poorly designed? If there is a problem, you can restore system to earlier system restore point, those are created automatically.
Your opinion doesn't make it unimportant.

As I said, you can mount drives to any folders in Windows.. since Win 2000. It just shows that you don't know Windows.

Not from the installer.

What do you mean? Yes, you can pick a partition from installer.
Man, have you ever installed Windows actually?

That's exactly why you never had BSODs. I switch hard-drives between different pcs and usually upgrade motherboards and cpus.

You are in a minority. Very few people do that.

Yea, you would have to tweak it to make it work. While OS X just loads all drivers, so no need to tweak.

Again, you are minority. Very few people need that.

Why would anyone install SQL server on desktop version of windows?

So that they can do development?

Obviously, this is useless discussion. How can you even ask that question?

And there are other better cross-platform SQL servers than MS SQL.

Yeah, right..

I don't see a problem with using emulator to be honest. On my hardware it works almost as fast as native boot. Yes, it costs extra money if you want to have it legally, but it's not that big of a deal. And old windows licenses can be reused for emulator as long as they are not OEM.

Oh, it's not a problem except that it works slower, that it costs extra money and if it's inside VM, then effectively you have 2 systems to maintain and use..

Yeah, why would that be a big deal for anyone? :-) How about simply use Windows alone and everything works, natively, etc? Oh, yeah, can't do that, that makes sense, doesn't it?

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Doomed
by WorknMan on Tue 10th Apr 2012 04:59 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Doomed"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

I can run unix gnu software on my OS X. Can you run gnu software without Cygwin on Windows?


Sure, a lot of gnu software have FOSS and Windows ports. And most of the time, there are superior alternatives anyway. Of course, if you're trying to get a *nix environment set up on Windows without 3rd party tools, that ain't gonna happen, nor is there any reason to think it should. It IS a completely different OS.

Edited 2012-04-10 05:01 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Doomed
by WorknMan on Mon 9th Apr 2012 23:24 UTC in reply to "RE: Doomed"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

IIS? Check. Apache? Check. Photoshop? Check. Visual Studio? Check. MySQL? Check. SQL Server? Check. Games? Check. MS Office? Check.

All popular apps, apps that matter, are there. No other OS gives you that.


Technically, you don't like Windows... you like what you can RUN on Windows ;) If you could run all those apps somewhere else, would you still be on Windows? I use Windows for the same reasons as you, but just different apps that I can't get anywhere else. But Windows itself is a POS, and I DON'T like it. I mean, it's usable, but I could think of at least a dozen different improvements that would make a HUGE difference.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Doomed
by gonzo on Tue 10th Apr 2012 03:47 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Doomed"
gonzo Member since:
2005-11-10

Well.. yes, I agree.. to a certain degree: when I say "Windows" of course I am talking about the whole "ecosystem".

I probably would still pick Windows, here's why:

1) I know it well already. Would I switch to a different OS (given that I have all those apps available)? To what benefit precisely? So I have to spend my time trying to figure out how to have everything that I already have on Windows? What is the point?

2) It is WELL supported by hardware manufacturers (printers, scanners, etc, etc)

3) It lets me have similar environment at home and at work (I do realize this does not apply to everyone)

4) Windows 7 is VERY good when it comes to desktop experience: fast, stable, relatively secure. From what I see in Win 8 Consumer Preview, it's going to be even faster than Win 7. Right on. (No, I am not impressed with Metro, but at least it's bearable compared to all those let's-go-full-retard-on-user OSX shiny icons and animations. God.)

But Windows itself is a POS

No.

Edited 2012-04-10 03:52 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Doomed
by WorknMan on Tue 10th Apr 2012 04:53 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Doomed"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

1) I know it well already. Would I switch to a different OS (given that I have all those apps available)? To what benefit precisely? So I have to spend my time trying to figure out how to have everything that I already have on Windows? What is the point?


The point is that there's actually a lot you don't have on Windows. For example, there's no way to centrally manage and update applications. And hardly any of them are portable by default. If I need to format my hard drive and reinstall everything, that could take a least half a day. With Android, the install is about 10 minutes, and apps can be fully restored in less time than that. There's no centralized spell checking, no multi-clipboard support, no app store (the one in Windows 8 only works for Metro apps), and the whole OS is very limited in the ways you can customize it, without 3rd party tools. That goes DOUBLE for the installation. When are they going to build tools that let normal users slipstream in drivers and service packs into the install disc? If my C drive gets corrupted and I need to get into the system, I can't boot the OS off a USB drive. Anyway, you get the point.

And, let's face it... the built-in apps suck ass. Not a huge deal when you're at home, but if you work in an environment where IT locks down the machines, having to use Windows Explorer and IE as default file manager and web browser is something I wouldn't wish on anyone. Oh, and let's not forget Windows Update, which is goddamn annoying.

2) It is WELL supported by hardware manufacturers (printers, scanners, etc, etc)


Again, this goes back to what you can run on Windows ...

3) It lets me have similar environment at home and at work (I do realize this does not apply to everyone)


Yeah, and wouldn't it be nice if you could sync all of your settings in the cloud ...

4) Windows 7 is VERY good when it comes to desktop experience: fast, stable, relatively secure.


You could say that about just about any OS these days, assuming your hardware is decent.

If Linux had the same apps and vendor support as Windows does, I'd happily use that instead. But as it stand, I'm stuck. I don't *hate* Windows, but I can't say I like it either.

Edited 2012-04-10 04:54 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Doomed
by gonzo on Tue 10th Apr 2012 12:49 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Doomed"
gonzo Member since:
2005-11-10

With Android, the install is about 10 minutes, and apps can be fully restored in less time than that.


Because on Android you have games that easily take like 1.5 GB of disk space and apps that do the same?

Yawn..

Reply Score: 2

RE: Doomed
by dsmogor on Tue 10th Apr 2012 12:28 UTC in reply to "Doomed"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

+1.
The reasons Windows brand is bad in consumer perception (poorly controlled ecosystem that have put too much responsibility on HW manufacturers, API mish mash, complexity coming out backward compatibility) are the explanation why MS did drastic u-turn with WP7 and put all previous efforts (including all it's mobile platform supporters work) into a dump.
The fact of the matter is that WP7 is in its core very un-Windows in both philosophy and goals.
Slapping a windows brand over it is not only hurting it but simply illogical and confusing.

Reply Score: 2

Well written article
by Nelson on Mon 9th Apr 2012 16:24 UTC
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

One of the more reasoned ones I've seen on The Verge.

That being said, I take issue with the conclusion that "it isn't working", considering its a fact that Nokia has helped accelerate sales.

Its a gradual process to build momentum, but its undeniable its there.

I am supremely proud with the turnaround Nokia has done in direction in just a few months. It is still my firm belief that Elop will be vindicated.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Well written article
by jnemesh on Mon 9th Apr 2012 22:53 UTC in reply to "Well written article"
jnemesh Member since:
2008-04-08

How "gradual" do you want it? Its been TWO freakin' years now, and they still have only 3% or less of the market!

Reply Score: 2

End of line for WP7
by CapEnt on Mon 9th Apr 2012 16:27 UTC
CapEnt
Member since:
2005-12-18

So, Win8 is not even released yet, and MS already treats WP7 as a bastard child. Buying a WP7 phone this year is suicidal unless Nokia can guarantee a free seamless upgrade.

The rumor of Win8 is competing against WP7 in the minds of anyone willing to try it.

Reply Score: 4

RE: End of line for WP7
by Nelson on Mon 9th Apr 2012 16:38 UTC in reply to "End of line for WP7"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Most people don't care. Stop making shit up.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: End of line for WP7
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 9th Apr 2012 16:46 UTC in reply to "RE: End of line for WP7"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Rumour has it that current WP7 phones won't be upgraded to the NT-based version that's coming out.

If so, the platform might as well jump off a cliff now and save us the trouble.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: End of line for WP7
by gonzo on Mon 9th Apr 2012 16:57 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: End of line for WP7"
gonzo Member since:
2005-11-10

Sources?

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: End of line for WP7
by gonzo on Mon 9th Apr 2012 17:10 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: End of line for WP7"
gonzo Member since:
2005-11-10

Thanks.

Will be interesting, if it turns out to be true. We'll find out soon enough,, I guess.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: End of line for WP7
by Nelson on Mon 9th Apr 2012 17:09 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: End of line for WP7"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Rumor has it you're a mermaid. See how easy that was?

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: End of line for WP7
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 9th Apr 2012 17:13 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: End of line for WP7"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

See the difference in how you presented yourself compared to Gonzo? Learn, young grasshopper!

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: End of line for WP7
by Nelson on Mon 9th Apr 2012 17:18 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: End of line for WP7"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Its just nonsensical to knock a platform down based off of rumors and speculation. Or some weird contortion of comments, which are more PR than anything.

Its silly.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: End of line for WP7
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 9th Apr 2012 17:46 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: End of line for WP7"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

You do realise this comes straight from Microsoft, right?

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: End of line for WP7
by gonzo on Mon 9th Apr 2012 18:34 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: End of line for WP7"
gonzo Member since:
2005-11-10

Well, Ars has just posted article that talks about this.


The Nokia Lumia 900: A good phone at a great price that you probably shouldn't buy

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2012/04/the-nokia-lumia-900-a...



I know I won't be buying WP7 now (and I was thinking about getting Lumia 710 or 900).

Edited 2012-04-09 18:35 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: End of line for WP7
by JAlexoid on Mon 9th Apr 2012 20:13 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: End of line for WP7"
JAlexoid Member since:
2009-05-19

Its just nonsensical to knock a platform down based off of rumors and speculation.


I understand that it's a rumour. But these rumours are in high profile publications and Microsoft has yet to comment.

And, yes, ever since Win8 WP7 seems like a bastard child to Microsoft. It wouldn't be the first time they act like that.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: End of line for WP7
by dsmogor on Tue 10th Apr 2012 11:37 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: End of line for WP7"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

The funny thing is that Harmattan based N9 was universally knocked out in the blogosphere precisely for the very same reason, while the press is hush about the dead man in WP7 closet, while rumours circulate about reviving Maemo for mass market phones.

Edited 2012-04-10 11:38 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE: End of line for WP7
by TemporalBeing on Tue 10th Apr 2012 16:09 UTC in reply to "End of line for WP7"
TemporalBeing Member since:
2007-08-22

So, Win8 is not even released yet, and MS already treats WP7 as a bastard child. Buying a WP7 phone this year is suicidal unless Nokia can guarantee a free seamless upgrade.

The rumor of Win8 is competing against WP7 in the minds of anyone willing to try it.


You are assuming you'll be able to upgrade WP7 to Win8. Don't count on it. They'd rather sell you a new phone so they can sell you a new license. That's how MS has always worked with mobile.

Apple upgrades iOS because its less maintenance for Apple; there's no licensing fee, and they know the hardware will work with the upgrade.

Android vendors upgrade Android because (i) its less maintenance for the vendor, and (ii) there are no licensing fees to do so. However, they don't put a lot of effort into it as the phone will likely be replaced at the end of the contract period, and some phones will be bigger issues than others; so they do what they can do easily and nothing more except on rare occasion.

Windows Mobile (WP7, Win8, WinCE, etc.) vendors don't typically upgrade a device as they would have to pay for a new license to Microsoft for that device, and it won't reduce their maintenance costs at all. So why bother, especially when the phone will (typically) get replaced at the end of the contract?

Reply Score: 2

Comment by shmerl
by shmerl on Mon 9th Apr 2012 17:39 UTC
shmerl
Member since:
2010-06-08

I don't wish them success.

Reply Score: 4

ronaldst
Member since:
2005-06-29

I completely agree. After all, they're fighting the same uphill battle as they were in november 2010. There are almost no phones at the retailers.

I would love for NOKIA to explain to me how hiring a dubstep "musician" to put on a show in New York will fix the retail channel problem.

Reply Score: 2

leech Member since:
2006-01-10

Maybe if they had actually stuck with the plan of Maemo / Symbian with Qt Awesome, they would actually be kicking some major butt right now. Then throw in Intel with the Linux Foundation around MeeGo and they had something great brewing, as proof of the N9.

But then they had to lay off all those talented people, and go down on Steve Ballmer.

Sad days.

I hope Elop burns on the platform he went with.

Reply Score: 5

dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

The alliance with Intel was misguided at best. Intel promised to deliver and they still haven't. They rightfully got the kick.
Anyway, the N9 was Nokia breed mostly. I still have a tine bit of hope they will revive the platform for emerging markets (including the one I live in of course).

Reply Score: 2

Comment by PieterGen
by PieterGen on Mon 9th Apr 2012 23:49 UTC
PieterGen
Member since:
2012-01-13

I love competition too. But Microsoft does not like competition. Therefore I don't think that the mobile market at large will benefit from Microsoft's presence in it.

Either Windows Phone (or Windows8 Mobile) stays small and remains an "also ran". In that case, neither iOS or Android will innovate faster because of Windows.

Or, alternatively, Windows Phone WILL gain market share. In that case Microsoft will simply kill Android, just like they killed BeOS, OS/2, WordPerfect, Linux of Netbooks etc.etc. etc.

In that case the net effect wil be a duo-poly of Microsoft and Apple, just like in the desktop market. (The two friends MS and Apple).

So the article title should have been "Competition is King, why we don't need Microsoft in the Mobile Market".

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by PieterGen
by moondevil on Tue 10th Apr 2012 09:30 UTC in reply to "Comment by PieterGen"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Or, alternatively, Windows Phone WILL gain market share. In that case Microsoft will simply kill Android, just like they killed BeOS, OS/2, WordPerfect, Linux of Netbooks etc.etc. etc.


They were not alone.

In many of such cases like OS/2 and WordPefect, their owner companies were actually responsible for the failure in the end, don't put the blame only on Microsoft.

IBM never knew how to sell OS/2 to the home users.

WordPerfect was killed by the company's own decisions,
http://www.wordplace.com/ap/

While it is true that Microsoft does not play nice, in the markets where it succeeds, it usually happens because the competition also does it own share of management errors.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by PieterGen
by dsmogor on Tue 10th Apr 2012 11:48 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by PieterGen"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

What MS did they cemented their presence on the market and made preety sure the successor to WordPerfect would not emerge. It took years of antitrust actions and standards organizations stunts to have them lessen the grip so that at least Google docs could cater a nich emerge.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by PieterGen
by moondevil on Tue 10th Apr 2012 18:57 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by PieterGen"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Please read the book written by one of the WordPerfect authors, from the link I've posted.

The company mismanagement was pretty bad.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by PieterGen
by dsmogor on Tue 10th Apr 2012 11:45 UTC in reply to "Comment by PieterGen"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

+1 for that.
MS still twists b**ls of most Android manufactures using their lousy patents. Now they milk them, but nothing prevents them from crushing Android when WP stands on its own feet.

Reply Score: 2