Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 25th Aug 2012 06:15 UTC
Microsoft Microsoft's response to Apple's win is probably the most cringeworthy of all. Blatantly admitting Windows Phone can't make a dent in the market on merit, but instead requires the court room to do so, Bill Cox, senior director of Windows Phone marketing communications, said: "Windows Phone is looking gooooood right now." Nauseating.
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Windows Phone
by trezzer on Sat 25th Aug 2012 08:06 UTC
trezzer
Member since:
2006-01-05

It is only fair that Microsoft should get its day in the sun. Unlike Google they went back to the drawing board and made something new. Good for Microsoft.

I still hope they don't become dominant, though. They become complacent when they are dominant (see Windows, Office, Xbox).

Reply Score: 2

RE: Windows Phone
by kompak on Sat 25th Aug 2012 18:11 UTC in reply to "Windows Phone"
kompak Member since:
2011-06-14

Xbox? Dominant? What planet do you live on?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Windows Phone
by lucas_maximus on Sun 26th Aug 2012 17:21 UTC in reply to "RE: Windows Phone"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Earth, Nintendo are going down the crapper and it is now Sony and Microsoft.

Sorry Xbox has done really well in 2 generations against the most dominant force in computing console gaming, Sony.

The PS1 and PS2 had a lot of fans that were converted to Xbox.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Windows Phone
by Johann Chua on Mon 27th Aug 2012 05:09 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Windows Phone"
Johann Chua Member since:
2005-07-22

The PS2 (yes, "two") still outsells the Xbox 360 in Japan. Doesn't sound like total domination to me.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Windows Phone
by lucas_maximus on Mon 27th Aug 2012 08:41 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Windows Phone"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Japanese market is very different.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Windows Phone
by bassbeast on Mon 27th Aug 2012 16:08 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Windows Phone"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

1.- Japan is VERY nationalist and loyal to local products, not to mention placing tariffs on foreign goods (so much for free trade huh?) and 2.- The Japanese have VERY different taste in games that frankly western devs have no interest in making. How many western dating simulators have you seen?

The simple fact is the Blu Ray was a BAD idea and has cost Sony billions over the life of the system due to the high cost of the units without being able to make it up with sales of games and BD movies. Last numbers I saw had MSFT at an 8 game sell through rate, while Nintendo had 2 and Sony 3, big difference there.

As for the Apple verdict helping MSFT? Well we do know that MSFT and Apple have cross licensing agreements so its not like they are gonna go after each other like they did in the 80s, but whether or not MSFT gets a foot in the door with tablets frankly will come down to how much money Ballmer is willing to flush. If they price the surface at $499-$599? DOA, no prayer, toast. If they put out a pad with $499 Apple specs but a Kindle price? Then they can probably buy their way in, even if they are flushing money down the toilet.

Don't forget that is the same route MSFT took with the XBox, selling at a loss to get their butts in the door. Unlike many of the Android vendors they can afford to drop a half a billion or more right off the bat by selling them dirt cheap and then hoping to make it up on the appstore.

In any case I think we are gonna see MSFT throw money around like never before because they know that X86 is mature and if they want serious growth like they had in the 90s then the only way they are gonna get that is by getting into mobile, no matter the cost.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Windows Phone
by lucas_maximus on Mon 27th Aug 2012 18:34 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Windows Phone"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

All consoles except for nintendo's have always been sold at a loss.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Windows Phone
by bassbeast on Tue 28th Aug 2012 05:23 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Windows Phone"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

The problem friend is like the Sega Saturn thanks to the combo of cell and BD you have a system that most likely will NEVER be sold at anything but a loss. With the PS1, PS2, XBox 1, and X360 they were able to eventually make units with less chips, smaller chips, and were able to begin selling them at a profit. For example IIRC the X360 has been selling at a slight profit since 2009, while the PS3 is selling at a loss to this very day.

Finally don't forget that if you are gonna sell for a loss then you HAVE to have a sell through rate capable of making up for those losses. Sorry I haven't been able to find the link but I remember reading that from the first day of X360 sales if they sold you 7 months of XBL Gold access and 5 games they came out ahead, whereas if the numbers are correct and Sony is losing something like $270 a unit and they are getting $5 a piece on $60 sales in licensing (can't find any hard numbers on how much Sony and MSFT make on licensing per game) you'd need to sell 14 $60 games just to break even.

So considering the losses Sony have been posting I think we can all pretty much agree that the PS3 is a giant flop for Sony. It doesn't matter how many units you sell if you lose serious $$$ per sale and can't make that up on the sell throughs, because you'll still end up bankrupt at the end of the day.

Again sorry for not backing up the math with links, but naturally Sony isn't exactly bragging about how much they lose per unit or how many sales they need to break even, can't blame them for it either.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Windows Phone
by kwanbis on Tue 28th Aug 2012 14:24 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Windows Phone"
kwanbis Member since:
2005-07-06

Microsoft sold 67.9 million 360s.
Sony sold 66 million PS3s.

BUT, because of RROD, I assume at least 10% of 360s sales are from dead 360s.

So, no, dominating no.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Windows Phone
by cdude on Sat 25th Aug 2012 18:43 UTC in reply to "Windows Phone"
cdude Member since:
2008-09-21

Android 4.1 JB is pretty new and that Android outsells iPhone by more then factor two shows that they are not a clone but just better. It looks like Apple has to copy some things from Android to not lose even more market share.

Edited 2012-08-25 18:50 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Windows Phone
by zima on Sat 1st Sep 2012 23:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Windows Phone"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

that Android outsells iPhone by more then factor two shows that they are not a clone but just better

Ahh, so you also must think that Windows is much, much better than Linux on the desktop... (after all, even the "horrible" Vista has an order of magnitude more users than all desktop Linux combined)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Windows Phone
by tanzam75 on Sat 25th Aug 2012 23:49 UTC in reply to "Windows Phone"
tanzam75 Member since:
2011-05-19

The verdict is good for Microsoft in the short-run. But in the long-run, Microsoft may well regret cheering on Apple's victory.

In the short-run, OEMs have just been given another reason to consider Windows Phone. (Except for Motorola.)

But Windows Phone is only sitting pretty because of the patent cross-licensing agreement with Apple. That agreement was signed back when Apple was a small fraction of its current size. Does Microsoft really expect Apple to renew the agreement on the same terms, once it expires?

Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were known to have had a personal rapport that made up for a lot of bad blood between their companies. Bill Gates is still around, but Steve Jobs isn't.

The next licensing agreement with Apple will be substantially less favorable to Microsoft.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Windows Phone
by bassbeast on Mon 27th Aug 2012 16:18 UTC in reply to "RE: Windows Phone"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

The next licensing agreement with Apple will be just as nice as the current one, and here is why:

1.- Apple has no intentions of ending up with a monopoly ruling like the one that hamstringed MSFT through the 00s, they saw how much of a watchful eye was directed at MSFT and have no desire to end up in the same boat.

2.- They know MSFT sucks royally at competing on the high margin sales, which has always been Apple's bread and butter.

What I'm sure Apple is figuring is the $399 - $699 market ruled by Apple mobile and the $99 - $299 market owned by MSFT, no different than how their biggest X86 systems as far as sales go are the $1300+ units while MSFT rules the $299 Dell specials. Apple has never desired to compete in the low margins mass produced market and with their cross licensing agreement they can let their old pals in Redmond have the cheapie market while they take the juicy sales.

Finally don't forget that both Apple and MSFT have a common enemy in Google, both Apple and MSFT sell products while Google gives their products away and sells eyeballs. That is exactly the kind of competition they don't want so I frankly would be VERY surprised if Cook didn't shake old Bill's hand and keep things just as they are. After all Apple is making money hand over fist, and if it ain't broke, why fix it?

Reply Score: 3

RE: Windows Phone
by Deviate_X on Mon 27th Aug 2012 08:20 UTC in reply to "Windows Phone"
Deviate_X Member since:
2005-07-11

It is only fair that Microsoft should get its day in the sun. Unlike Google they went back to the drawing board and made something new. Good for Microsoft.

I still hope they don't become dominant, though. They become complacent when they are dominant (see Windows, Office, Xbox).


Microsoft is a long long way from being dominant, but i do hope we get some decent hardware as a result of OEMs seeing the need to work harder on wp7/8 and w8

Reply Score: 2

RE: Windows Phone
by zima on Wed 29th Aug 2012 01:06 UTC in reply to "Windows Phone"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

It is only fair that Microsoft should get its day in the sun. Unlike Google they went back to the drawing board and made something new. Good for Microsoft.
I still hope they don't become dominant, though. They become complacent when they are dominant (see Windows, Office, Xbox).

What are you talking about?

With Windows, they are dominant since 3.1 ...and in the two decades since, it greatly improved, is now even better choice that it was back then (oh, because it won due to being simply the best out of all not-great choices: http://www.osnews.com/thread?522221 ).

Xbox? What, you mean you didn't even notice Kinect? (and generally seemingly the most lively, most vigorous platform)

Office - the nice improvement of Ribbon, even thought they didn't have to, even though some people grumbled against innovation.

About the only major example of complacency is IE6 (not the earlier versions, pre-IE6 it improved rapidly, became better than Netscape) - but also largely due to corps who didn't bother to upgrade.

Reply Score: 2

Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Sat 25th Aug 2012 09:31 UTC
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

Blatantly admitting Windows Phone can't make a dent in the market on merit, but instead requires the court room to do so, Bill Cox, senior director of Windows Phone marketing communications, said: "Windows Phone is looking gooooood right now." Nauseating.


No, what it says is that REAL innovation like what Microsoft does rather than me-too that Samsung engages in will result in new ideas coming to the centre stage rather than a regurgitation of the leading businesses ideas but at a cheaper price. I know you're pissed off Thom and going to have a hissy fit but I'd sooner see a real alternative product give Apple a run for their money than 'cheaper than iPhone copy' taking marketshare off the back of a consumer wanting to save a few bucks on a copy of the leaders look and feel. Btw, the law suit wasn't on one aspect but the culmination of all the various parts that were blatantly ripped off - it is one thing to take a few ideas and build upon them whilst creating a unique experience but it is an entirely different situation to be a 'me too'.

Yes, I am prepared for the deluged of down voting from the 'Apple haters' on this forum - because rather than actually hold a debate they use the down vote button instead.

Edited 2012-08-25 09:32 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE: Comment by kaiwai
by Thom_Holwerda on Sat 25th Aug 2012 09:52 UTC in reply to "Comment by kaiwai"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Btw, the law suit wasn't on one aspect but the culmination of all the various parts that were blatantly ripped off - it is one thing to take a few ideas and build upon them whilst creating a unique experience but it is an entirely different situation to be a 'me too'.


Apple lost in the UK, Germany, The Netherlands, Australia, and South Korea.

Apple won in the US (the only jury trial).

Make of it what you will, but "blatant" is not the term I'd use.

Reply Score: 11

RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Sat 25th Aug 2012 11:01 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

" Btw, the law suit wasn't on one aspect but the culmination of all the various parts that were blatantly ripped off - it is one thing to take a few ideas and build upon them whilst creating a unique experience but it is an entirely different situation to be a 'me too'.


Apple lost in the UK, Germany, The Netherlands, Australia, and South Korea.

Apple won in the US (the only jury trial).

Make of it what you will, but "blatant" is not the term I'd use.
"

But you're OK to cheerlead on Samsung who have been been caught out with LCD price fixing, mobile price fixing, memory price fixing etc. etc. more damage to consumers than any so-called patent war could ever do thanks to Apple's paranoia.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by Thom_Holwerda on Sat 25th Aug 2012 11:19 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

I'm cheering Samsung?

I'm cheering the industry - which has, sadly, been dealt a heavy blow. Samsung, Apple - they can all disappear for all I care. The industry is all I care about.

Reply Score: 11

RE[4]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Sat 25th Aug 2012 11:28 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm cheering Samsung?

I'm cheering the industry - which has, sadly, been dealt a heavy blow. Samsung, Apple - they can all disappear for all I care. The industry is all I care about.


Same here - both of them suck; Samsung and their shit support for older devices with Apple believing that the only way they can compete is to sue competitors into a new dimension. Both of them suck but until things change in the United States, the crucible of IT, things won't change internationally.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai
by cdude on Sat 25th Aug 2012 17:09 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by kaiwai"
cdude Member since:
2008-09-21

Your sidenote about Apple need to sue to compete, to not go down and lose, hits the nail. Apple is constantly losing market share against Android and they focus on patents rather then products to stop that. Sueing and turning your "coolness factor" down is not helping to prevent a future decline but its accelerating the downfall. Apple depends, like no other brand, on its reputation and public image. They are actively damaging that for a 1 billion $ peanut. Then Samsung just ships lesser rounded corners at black rectangle in the future and it will sell like before cause nobody buys there devices cause of the black rectangle corner-percentange.

Edited 2012-08-25 17:18 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai
by bassbeast on Mon 27th Aug 2012 16:31 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

But you have to admit that if you take the latest Android and iOS and put them side by side they DO look a heck of a lot alike. And most of the people I know that bought an Android phone, including members of my family, bought them because they are cheap while still working a lot like the iPhone. And as much as I can't stand Metro even I have to admit that nobody is gonna mistake that for iOS!

So while I don't really have a horse in this race, I'm sticking with my dumbphone because I have a nice EEE and WiFi is everywhere here, I can see why a layperson would sit the two side by side and have trouble telling whose is what.

Personally I hope this brings some actual innovation to the field as I think ALL the current mobile UIs suck in various degrees and I'd love to see someone come out with something better.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by cfgr on Sat 25th Aug 2012 11:24 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
cfgr Member since:
2009-07-18

Why do you automatically assume people are cheerleading for Samsung? How about they're cheerleading against this patent bullshit? This will affect us all, Android users, Apple users, everyone who wants to enjoy progress. Innovation will slow down: start-ups and investors are scared, and established players no longer have a reason to due to their patents.

It baffles me how people can become so brainwashed by a company that they happily cheer against their own interests and that of their descendants, and think that anyone who opposes this behaviour must cheer for the enemy. Companies are the new religions it seems.

Edited 2012-08-25 11:27 UTC

Reply Score: 6

RE[4]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Sat 25th Aug 2012 11:35 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Why do you automatically assume people are cheerleading for Samsung? How about they're cheerleading against this patent bullshit? This will affect us all, Android users, Apple users, everyone who wants to enjoy progress. Innovation will slow down: start-ups and investors are scared, and established players no longer have a reason to due to their patents.

It baffles me how people can become so brainwashed by a company that they happily cheer against their own interests and that of their descendants, and think that anyone who opposes this behaviour must cheer for the enemy. Companies are the new religions it seems.


Please, if I listed every problem I had with Apple I'd get the question, "then why the hell do you use Apple products" - in a perfect world we wouldn't have software patents but until American voters stop voting based on the three G's and engage the system as to demand patent reform things will keep getting worse as people like me in NZ (a small country) will get the result of the craptacular system. In a perfect reality everyone would ignore the US market, US based companies would pull out of the US market and let the damn thing collapse but far too many businesses have far too much money vested in maintaining the status quo in some form.

With that being said, Microsoft is coming off looking like an angel when compared to Apple at this moment. One thing I will concede is someone noting that Apple when given the sort of power Microsoft has will be far worse - as seen so far things are moving in that direction. Where as Microsoft is happy to ask for $3 per unit we have Apple who effectively wants the vendor to shut down - $45-$50 is not realistic and pretty much demands that the business closes their doors.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai
by _txf_ on Sat 25th Aug 2012 15:16 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by kaiwai"
_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

With that being said, Microsoft is coming off looking like an angel when compared to Apple at this moment. One thing I will concede is someone noting that Apple when given the sort of power Microsoft has will be far worse - as seen so far things are moving in that direction. Where as Microsoft is happy to ask for $3 per unit we have Apple who effectively wants the vendor to shut down - $45-$50 is not realistic and pretty much demands that the business closes their doors.


MS just comes off as rather slimy. Unlike apple, they sidle up to vendors and extort money out of them. MS doesn't have mobile success so they choose to get some money out of competitors as opposed to blocking them outright.

I don't think either is correct.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Sun 26th Aug 2012 15:57 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

MS just comes off as rather slimy. Unlike apple, they sidle up to vendors and extort money out of them. MS doesn't have mobile success so they choose to get some money out of competitors as opposed to blocking them outright.

I don't think either is correct.


If these said companies knew that Microsoft had no leg to stand on do you really think they would licence it in the first place? the question isn't the outcome based on what we to occur but how it will turn out based on how the law is written today - in a perfect world the evidence for anything to be patented would be high, the patent office itself would be well funded and most important the 'common good' would trump business greed in cases of issues such as medication for treatable diseases but said treatment is too high due to price gouging. If Samsung and HTC had a leg to stand on they would never had agreed to the licence hence there must have been some validity in it hence on one hand we have Microsoft realise that making a few bucks by asking a reasonable amount is more productive than throwing an Apple of demanding sums that are so incredibly out of this world that it would be derelict of being a manager to simply roll over and accept it - maybe Samsung was hoping that maybe if they could punch some holes in the case that Apple would licence the technology at a more reasonable price. IMHO I would have preferred to see the judge tell Samsung and Apple that $5 per unit for an across the board licensing and leave it at that. Apple would get fair compensation and Samsung would make a reasonable return on their product sales.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by andydread on Sat 25th Aug 2012 11:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
andydread Member since:
2009-02-02

"[q] Btw, the law suit wasn't on one aspect but the culmination of all the various parts that were blatantly ripped off - it is one thing to take a few ideas and build upon them whilst creating a unique experience but it is an entirely different situation to be a 'me too'.


Apple lost in the UK, Germany, The Netherlands, Australia, and South Korea.

Apple won in the US (the only jury trial).

Make of it what you will, but "blatant" is not the term I'd use.
"

But you're OK to cheerlead on Samsung who have been been caught out with LCD price fixing, mobile price fixing, memory price fixing etc. etc. more damage to consumers than any so-called patent war could ever do thanks to Apple's paranoia. [/q]
I don't think the OP was cheerleading on Samsung like you are cheerleeding for the destruction of the freedom to write code. What Apple and Microsoft are doing is abusing the patent system and opening up a pandora box of software-patents on every little feature of software. And with this we are heading for truly dark times when the only people that can legally write commecial code in the US are the ones who have the approval of Apple and Microsoft. And we have seen that by their rules that code must not compete with them. Think about this for a minute. You sit down at your computer and write your own code totally unique to you but because it does some function such as hyperlink to a phone # you are now at risk of being sued. even if your code is totally different from anything Apple wrote. This a very very bad situation. Basically What Appple and Microsoft are doing is taking ownership of other people's code through the use of software-patents.

Reply Score: 7

RE: Comment by kaiwai
by Yehppael on Sat 25th Aug 2012 09:57 UTC in reply to "Comment by kaiwai"
Yehppael Member since:
2012-08-01

It has nothing to do with Apple hating or Samsung loving or Microsoft idiots.

It's simply put, that Apple, to get rid of competition, simply sues them into bankruptcy. Samsung won't actually pay that money, they'll appeal, drag it through the courts some more, time will pass, another judge will reduce the damages to half that, so, the corporate asses won't get hurt, us customers, the users will be on the receiving end for this idiocy.

Microsoft has it's own tools for dealing with competitors, look how it deals with Android for instance. It's sad that they can get away with it, but even with the costs increase they don't change that market very much, the customers still benefit.

Apple's win, doesn't matter they were right or not, opens a lot of problems for the industry.

Anyway, this whole thing is stupid. Square wheels. Think about it.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Sat 25th Aug 2012 10:58 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

It has nothing to do with Apple hating or Samsung loving or Microsoft idiots.

It's simply put, that Apple, to get rid of competition, simply sues them into bankruptcy. Samsung won't actually pay that money, they'll appeal, drag it through the courts some more, time will pass, another judge will reduce the damages to half that, so, the corporate asses won't get hurt, us customers, the users will be on the receiving end for this idiocy.

Microsoft has it's own tools for dealing with competitors, look how it deals with Android for instance. It's sad that they can get away with it, but even with the costs increase they don't change that market very much, the customers still benefit.

Apple's win, doesn't matter they were right or not, opens a lot of problems for the industry.

Anyway, this whole thing is stupid. Square wheels. Think about it.


You mean how Samsung has been caught out with LCD price fixing, mobile price fixing, memory price fixing etc. etc. Oh, thats right - lets cheerlead on Samsung like some sort of white knight - sorry but that is pathetic as people who cheerlead on Apple has some sort of 'white knight' against Microsoft or people who cheerlead on IBM as a white knight against Microsoft. It is pathetic to see people jumping on the cheerleading bandwagon. Btw, the only difference between Apple and Microsoft is that Microsoft is willing to cut a deal that is realistic with Android vendors rather than the insanely stupid amount that Apple was demanding ($5 per device vs. $45-$50 per device). I'll bet my bottom dollar that if Apple offered Samsung $3 per device you would have seen Samsung leap at it but they didn't because Apple was stupid and demanded something that simply doesn't border on realistic.

Edited 2012-08-25 11:06 UTC

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by some1 on Sat 25th Aug 2012 15:10 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
some1 Member since:
2010-10-05

You mean how Samsung has been caught out with LCD price fixing, mobile price fixing, memory price fixing etc. etc.

If you knew what price fixing is and what counts as price fixing from the legal point of view, you'd stop repeating this as a broken record. I bet you for *every* product where there are just a handful of suppliers you can find price fixing.

I'll bet my bottom dollar that if Apple offered Samsung $3 per device you would have seen Samsung leap at it

And that is (surprise!) exactly how patents are supposed to work.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai
by Deviate_X on Mon 27th Aug 2012 08:25 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by kaiwai"
Deviate_X Member since:
2005-07-11

It has nothing to do with Apple hating or Samsung loving or Microsoft idiots.

It's simply put, that Apple, to get rid of competition, simply sues them into bankruptcy. Samsung won't actually pay that money, they'll appeal, drag it through the courts some more, time will pass, another judge will reduce the damages to half that, so, the corporate asses won't get hurt, us customers, the users will be on the receiving end for this idiocy.

Microsoft has it's own tools for dealing with competitors, look how it deals with Android for instance. It's sad that they can get away with it, but even with the costs increase they don't change that market very much, the customers still benefit.

Apple's win, doesn't matter they were right or not, opens a lot of problems for the industry.

Anyway, this whole thing is stupid. Square wheels. Think about it.


Apple vowed to destroy Android outright http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15400984

Nonsense, Microsoft deals with the competition nicely compared to Apple you just pay up standard licensing fee, Microsoft goes back to sleep

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by kaiwai
by Janvl on Sat 25th Aug 2012 10:58 UTC in reply to "Comment by kaiwai"
Janvl Member since:
2007-02-20

Please learn how to read and understand.

Apple is no innovator.
Apple has always stolen the ideas of others and then did a very good marketing.

Software patents are poison for progress and innovation.

The verdict is an american one and americans tend to hold to american businesses. There is also a strong tendency to "buy" your (self)justice - (Microsoft and ISO).

I consider this verdict a farce and a loss for the whole ICT-industry. It confirms the bad habit of suffocating other companies with "patents", that build on the same idea and try to improve it, the last being a basic aspect of the human civilisation.

Jobs is dead, now let us wait for apple to die.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Sat 25th Aug 2012 11:05 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Please learn how to read and understand.

Apple is no innovator.
Apple has always stolen the ideas of others and then did a very good marketing.


Yes, because all Apple customers are moronic fuckwitts who are enamoured by shiny produces. Innovation is more than just rectum plucking an idea, it is about coming up with an idea or taking an existing idea then transforming it from a concept into a real world product that is useful for a consumer. No one cares who did it first but who delivered it in a way that is meaningful for the end user which in that regard Apple has done a good job.

Software patents are poison for progress and innovation.

The verdict is an american one and americans tend to hold to american businesses. There is also a strong tendency to "buy" your (self)justice - (Microsoft and ISO).

I consider this verdict a farce and a loss for the whole ICT-industry. It confirms the bad habit of suffocating other companies with "patents", that build on the same idea and try to improve it, the last being a basic aspect of the human civilisation.

Jobs is dead, now let us wait for apple to die.


Of course patents are a problem but guess what - you keep voting in the same idiots over and over again (since you refuse to disclose the country of origin you're from in your profile I'm going to assume you're from the United States) then this is what you get as a result.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by Sauron on Sat 25th Aug 2012 11:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
Sauron Member since:
2005-08-02

Yes, because all Apple customers are moronic fuckwitts who are enamoured by shiny produces.

You said it! ;)

Reply Score: 6

RE[4]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Sat 25th Aug 2012 11:50 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Yes, because all Apple customers are moronic fuckwitts who are enamoured by shiny produces.

You said it! ;)


*face palm* and Windows users wouldn't know a well designed GUI even if it jumped out and gave them a lap dance (the person doing the lap dance happens to be of the said persons preferred gender).

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai
by Sauron on Sat 25th Aug 2012 11:53 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by kaiwai"
Sauron Member since:
2005-08-02

Agree there too, that's why I don't use Windows.
Now for fucks sake calm down and take a pill or something!

"Yes, because all Apple customers are moronic fuckwitts who are enamoured by shiny produces.

You said it! ;)


*face palm* and Windows users wouldn't know a well designed GUI even if it jumped out and gave them a lap dance (the person doing the lap dance happens to be of the said persons preferred gender).
"

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai
by BallmerKnowsBest on Sun 26th Aug 2012 14:21 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Comment by kaiwai"
BallmerKnowsBest Member since:
2008-06-02

Agree there too, that's why I don't use Windows.
Now for fucks sake calm down and take a pill or something!


Well it has been a few months since his last "waaaah, I'm leaving OSnews forever and I really mean it this time" rage-quit, so I guess he's overdue.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Sun 26th Aug 2012 16:00 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Well it has been a few months since his last "waaaah, I'm leaving OSnews forever and I really mean it this time" rage-quit, so I guess he's overdue.


Go f--k yourself mate - people like you are the reason for the problems in the world. I've been here for over 10 years, way before it was a registered site, way before Thom became the big cheese so lets cut the shit and stick to the facts - now piss off, make me a sandwich and fetch me a beer you worthless f--kwitt.

Edited 2012-08-26 16:01 UTC

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by Shadowmane on Sat 25th Aug 2012 14:01 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
Shadowmane Member since:
2006-06-16

No one cares who did it first but who delivered it in a way that is meaningful for the end user which in that regard Apple has done a good job.


Apparently Apple cares, or they wouldn't have sued. No matter how you slice it, this is bad for business in the United States. This is why I don't use Apple or Microsoft products. They use their money and power to kill real innovation, then scoop up the innovators' ideas for a steal, then call it innovation... only they weren't the real innovators, just the pirate that came in and scooped up the treasure.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by Janvl on Sat 25th Aug 2012 14:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
Janvl Member since:
2007-02-20

taking an existing idea then transforming it from a concept into a real world product that is useful for a consumer


You mean like a Galaxy note? Or a Galaxy S3 with jelly bean that can play flash?

to assume

makes an ass of u and me

I am dutch, accidentally living in austria, a "european" would fit best.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by cdude on Sat 25th Aug 2012 17:42 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
cdude Member since:
2008-09-21


"
Apple is no innovator.
Apple has always stolen the ideas of others and then did a very good marketing.


Innovation is more than just rectum plucking an idea,
"

No, its not. You do not even have to make a product what is why there are so many pure patent-troll companies sueing around.

useful for a consumer.


Wrong, the customer please zero role in the patent universe. Please read up on

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention


"Software patents are poison for progress and innovation.


Of course patents are a problem but ... (... I'm going to assume you're from the United States) then this is what you get as a result.
"

He could also be from europe where software patents are valid too as long as the claim contains a "... running on a computer or similar technical device" closer.

Software-patents are a world wide problem. Global village effects and so on.

Edited 2012-08-25 17:45 UTC

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by bassbeast on Mon 27th Aug 2012 16:43 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
bassbeast Member since:
2007-11-11

Dude have you ever seen the near riots that happen when a new Air Jordan is released? Apple is about branding, no different than Gucci and Prada. Do Gucci and Prada make nice products? Well I'm sure they do, but its not the fact that its a nice product that sells it...that's just a bonus.

No its the status thing that does a lot of the selling for Apple, just as Air Jordans I'm sure are nice but people don't have flash mobs for nice shoes, they do it for status items. Isn't it funny how the ONLY products you see people literally camping out ahead of time to get are Air Jordans and Apple products? Having last year's Apple is simply uncool daddy-o, Like wearing last year's fashions.

Not to say there is anything wrong with being into fashion, if that makes you happy? I wish you nothing but good fortune. Just be willing to admit its a fashion choice, that's all.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai
by bfr99 on Sat 25th Aug 2012 17:27 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by kaiwai"
bfr99 Member since:
2007-03-15

Please learn how to read and understand.

Apple is no innovator.
Apple has always stolen the ideas of others and then did a very good marketing.

Software patents are poison for progress and innovation.

The verdict is an american one and americans tend to hold to american businesses. There is also a strong tendency to "buy" your (self)justice - (Microsoft and ISO).

I consider this verdict a farce and a loss for the whole ICT-industry. It confirms the bad habit of suffocating other companies with "patents", that build on the same idea and try to improve it, the last being a basic aspect of the human civilisation.

Jobs is dead, now let us wait for apple to die.

What is the evidence that software patents stifle innovation? Is there less innovation in the US than countries that do not enforce software patents? Is there less innovation in US the since software patents were legalized? Why are there so many Silicon Valley venture capital firms is innovation is being stifled? If you really believe Apple is dying by all means short the stock.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by cdude on Sat 25th Aug 2012 18:01 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
cdude Member since:
2008-09-21

1. http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/projects/lpf/Links/prep.ai.mit.edu/...

2. You see the evidence for example in all those patent-troll companies without products sueing big money out of companies who have products but then lesser money to re-/invest future. There are many more evidences (use google to search and read up if you are interested in the whole palette which would drift us to far away from the article). All those patent-trolls sueing around are evidence enough that the patent-system is horrible broken.

Edited 2012-08-25 18:07 UTC

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by andydread on Sat 25th Aug 2012 20:16 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
andydread Member since:
2009-02-02

"Please learn how to read and understand.

Apple is no innovator.
Apple has always stolen the ideas of others and then did a very good marketing.

Software patents are poison for progress and innovation.

The verdict is an american one and americans tend to hold to american businesses. There is also a strong tendency to "buy" your (self)justice - (Microsoft and ISO).

I consider this verdict a farce and a loss for the whole ICT-industry. It confirms the bad habit of suffocating other companies with "patents", that build on the same idea and try to improve it, the last being a basic aspect of the human civilisation.

Jobs is dead, now let us wait for apple to die.


What is the evidence that software patents stifle innovation? Is there less innovation in the US than countries that do not enforce software patents? Is there less innovation in US the since software patents were legalized? Why are there so many Silicon Valley venture capital firms is innovation is being stifled? If you really believe Apple is dying by all means short the stock.
"

Do you write code? Do you have any code that you wrote that is successful in the operating system market? Do you write any code that competes with Apple or Microsoft in marketplace? If so How many software patents do you have in your war-chest?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by kaiwai
by segedunum on Sat 25th Aug 2012 11:52 UTC in reply to "Comment by kaiwai"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Btw, the law suit wasn't on one aspect but the culmination of all the various parts that were blatantly ripped off - it is one thing to take a few ideas and build upon them whilst creating a unique experience but it is an entirely different situation to be a 'me too'.

Apple has their own survey which says that isn't the case - people who have bought Android devices don't see any similarities nor did they buy it because they thought they were getting a cheaper iPhone.

Handing a jury not knowledgeable about technology a set of very narrow questions where similarities were doctored in is not much of a victory, and this has no real chance of being upheld on appeal.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Sat 25th Aug 2012 12:39 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Apple has their own survey which says that isn't the case - people who have bought Android devices don't see any similarities nor did they buy it because they thought they were getting a cheaper iPhone.

Handing a jury not knowledgeable about technology a set of very narrow questions where similarities were doctored in is not much of a victory, and this has no real chance of being upheld on appeal.


True - having had a look further into the case it appears that large sways of evidence by Samsung have been thrown out by the judge such as evidence of prior art related to the particular patented technologies Apple claims Samsung infringed on. I think Apple is just pissed off that although the iPhone sparked off the consumer smart phone it appears that for many they're quite happy with what the others have to offer which offer similar functionality at a reasonable price (the price difference between SIII and iPhone 4S is minuscule). Maybe Apple needs to adopt the position that they took when it comes to the Mac - for Apple to succeed it doesn't mean that Android has to fail. Personally there is a tonne of room for growth so why Apple can't see this as an opportunity I'm befuddled. Maybe their overinflated share price is based on unrealistic expectations of Apple and the executive team see the law suit as the only way of ensuring that the share price remains where it is by securing future dominance.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by some1 on Sat 25th Aug 2012 18:26 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
some1 Member since:
2010-10-05

Maybe Apple needs to adopt the position that they took when it comes to the Mac

They are doing exactly what they did with Macs two decades ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microsoft_Corp...
Only they got smarter and are suing a non-US company now.

Seriously, though, I very much agree with what you've said.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Comment by kaiwai
by kaiwai on Sun 26th Aug 2012 16:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

"Maybe Apple needs to adopt the position that they took when it comes to the Mac

They are doing exactly what they did with Macs two decades ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microsoft_Corp...
Only they got smarter and are suing a non-US company now.

Seriously, though, I very much agree with what you've said.
"

What annoyed me about the whole Mac situation back then is the fact that they had A/UX, a UNIX based operating system that had they kept developing rather than than the 'classic Mac OS' along with periodical price cuts they would have maintained a reasonable marketshare. It seems that Apple has a habit of making stupid decisions then looking around for someone to blame for those miss steps just as Microsoft competitors whine about the dominance of Microsoft Office but what were they doing 20 years ago when the ground work to Microsoft Office was being laid? we had Wordstar and Wordperfect both dismissing Windows GUI as nothing more than a gimmick that wouldn't amount to anything - and here we are today seeing the consequences of stupid decisions made 20 years ago. Grrr, so frustrating to see history repeat over and over again.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by kaiwai
by segedunum on Mon 27th Aug 2012 12:45 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by kaiwai"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Maybe Apple needs to adopt the position that they took when it comes to the Mac - for Apple to succeed it doesn't mean that Android has to fail. Personally there is a tonne of room for growth so why Apple can't see this as an opportunity I'm befuddled.

What they did with the Mac was a disaster that almost bankrupted them. They managed to shove themselves into a niche with the Mac, but even today it is a very small niche that wouldn't sustain the company by itself.

They know Android is a serious problem for them because they know people are not going to continue paying over the odds for iPhones continually. Android phones have the supply and people have the choice - they can get a cheap one or an expensive one that's almost as much as an iPhone. People are not going to pay several times the price of an Android tablet for an iPad. In the early adopter phase they will do that, but as time goes on Apple is on a hiding to nothing that will not sustain a $600 billion company.

Reply Score: 2

Embarrassing
by bowkota on Sat 25th Aug 2012 10:21 UTC
bowkota
Member since:
2011-10-12

We all knew that Microsoft had an inferior product but having a senior executive literally admit that they need their competitor's help to survive is pretty embarrassing.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Embarrassing
by moondevil on Sat 25th Aug 2012 10:42 UTC in reply to "Embarrassing"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Sadly these are the two companies most users care about.

Alternative systems will always have steep hill to climb nowadays.

I hope that all open source fans that give Apple money with the excuse that Mac OS X is UNIX, are now happy with their investment.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Embarrassing
by cdude on Sat 25th Aug 2012 18:21 UTC in reply to "Embarrassing"
cdude Member since:
2008-09-21

Not only that. Microsoft wrote that *NOW* they are good. That means before the juri spoke they where not. Microsoft himself, through its PR-man number 1, admits that the product was not good before the juri spoke. Now it happens to be the case that Windows Phone 8 was RTM before the juri spoke and hence the product itself, Windows Phone 8, will not change till launch. Nokia for example has that "before the juri spoke" not-good version and presents it in ~2 weeks to the world with there new Lumia product lines.

That is news. Microsoft itself says Windows Phone 8 is not good. At least not till the juri spoke. Does anybody think customers will receive the not-good product Windows Phone 8 as good now cause the Apple vs Samsung juri spoke? Really?

Fatal communication, Microsoft. Close to another osborn. You can just be happy nobody really cares about your PR man's messages right now cause of the Apple vs Samsung story.

Edited 2012-08-25 18:26 UTC

Reply Score: 1

Innovation
by wocowboy on Sat 25th Aug 2012 11:40 UTC
wocowboy
Member since:
2006-06-01

No, it's quite simple, really: Microsoft INNOVATED instead of copied. The Windows Phone interface is quite different from iOS. Microsoft also licensed patents from Apple for things they wanted to use in their interface. Samsung refused to do either of these things. For example, instead of copying the icon with the flower on it for their photo app, Microsoft has a square tile with something different on it, that also links to photos all over your phone! How novel!

Reply Score: 2

RE: Innovation
by bowkota on Sat 25th Aug 2012 13:48 UTC in reply to "Innovation"
bowkota Member since:
2011-10-12

MS indeed implemented some nice and innovative ideas in their mobile OS but it's not enough. It's an incomplete package and Samsung has been much more successful with android and some solid phone development.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Innovation
by BluenoseJake on Sat 25th Aug 2012 22:17 UTC in reply to "RE: Innovation"
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

How is Windows Phone incomplete? Seriously?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Innovation
by Deviate_X on Mon 27th Aug 2012 08:32 UTC in reply to "Innovation"
Deviate_X Member since:
2005-07-11

"photo app" tile shows you a modestly animated preview of what it contains

Reply Score: 2

Comment by Stephen!
by Stephen! on Sat 25th Aug 2012 14:04 UTC
Stephen!
Member since:
2007-11-24

"Bill Cox, senior director of Windows Phone marketing communications, said: "Windows Phone is looking gooooood right now"

Well, aside from the fact that Nokia seems to be in financial decline and mobile versions of Windows have never really managed to gain significant market share in over a decade.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Comment by Stephen!
by cdude on Sat 25th Aug 2012 18:35 UTC in reply to "Comment by Stephen!"
cdude Member since:
2008-09-21

The wording tells it. Its looking good but not more. As soon as you try to use it, try to do something, try to install apps its over. But hey, at least it looks good while waiting forever in the shelfes.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comment by Stephen!
by Nelson on Sat 25th Aug 2012 18:41 UTC in reply to "Comment by Stephen!"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Only in the OSNews bizarro world is 150% YoY growth and sequential growth every quarter since last year a failure in the marketplace. There is beyond clear momentum in Windows Phone and Nokia (their shares shot up 60% since their all time low) yet its still written off by those who see what they want to see.

The same idiots were the ones saying Samsung would prevail because of "prior art" when all Samsungs exhibits didnt pass the litmus test for prior art. Not one, not two, but ALL of their defenses failed.

Reply Score: 2

This is why
by Mellin on Sat 25th Aug 2012 15:10 UTC
Mellin
Member since:
2005-07-06

This is why we should have no software patents in Europe!

Reply Score: 5

RE: This is why
by shmerl on Sun 26th Aug 2012 01:10 UTC in reply to "This is why"
shmerl Member since:
2010-06-08

Not only in Europe - everywhere.

Reply Score: 2

What's "nauseating" is Thom's ridiculous
by MollyC on Mon 27th Aug 2012 00:42 UTC
MollyC
Member since:
2006-07-04

spin on that quote. There were no "admissions" in that quote. What is this, Fox News? Russia Today? Microsoft seeing an potential advantage for them in the outcome of a courtcase they had nothing to do with doesn't merit the absurd spin this site is putting on it.

Reply Score: 4

Comment by Deviate_X
by Deviate_X on Mon 27th Aug 2012 08:41 UTC
Deviate_X
Member since:
2005-07-11

Microsoft just LOLed at people who said android was free

Lets face the truth and be honest, Android was initially boosted because it was free and OEMs could fix the interface (which some said was lacking in initial versions). FREE was the biggest part

Reply Score: 2

Good How?
by Lorin on Mon 27th Aug 2012 09:07 UTC
Lorin
Member since:
2010-04-06

Based on Apple's culture of litigate behind the mask of innovation, they will be claiming that Microsoft has somehow infringed with Windows.

The only winner will be every other country outside of the US, who will want to do business there in that hostile environment where the judges help in the theft.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Good How?
by Johann Chua on Mon 27th Aug 2012 11:29 UTC in reply to "Good How?"
Johann Chua Member since:
2005-07-22

Apple and Microsoft have a cross-licensing agreement, so they won't sue each other.

Reply Score: 2