Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 19th Sep 2017 21:52 UTC
Apple

iOS 11 has been released, and if you have an iPhone or iPad, you should really update right now. It's a big release, and especially iPad users will get to enjoy an overhauled user experience on their tablets. If you're not convinced, be sure to read the only two reviews you need: the one by fervent and enthusiastic (his enthusiasm for the iPad is infectious, in a good way) iPad user Federico Viticci, and the Ars Technica review written by Andrew Cunningham.

I've been using the betas on my 2017 iPad Pro 12.9", and it truly transforms how you use the iPad, to the point where I can use mine comfortably for work (translating, posting OSNews stories - like this one - and so on). No macOS or Windows laptop is as responsive and fluid as this iPad Pro, and the battery life of this machine is so good, it's probably illegal in 12 US states. Unlike macOS or Windows, I don't have to spend time fighting with iOS 11 to get it to do what I want, like fidgeting with windows, or anxiously managing battery life because otherwise I won't get through a day, or manage applications. And trust me, there's no PC - not even my own €4000 monster PC - that is as fluid and responsive as this iPad Pro.

The iPad Pro with iOS 11 is the truest realisation yet of it just works.

I'm not going to claim this is for everyone, or that you should ritually sacrifice your ThinkPad and run to the Apple Store and get the iPad Pro. However, after a few months of use, there's no way I'm ever going back to a traditional laptop. That being said - my only complaint about the 2017 iPad Pro 12.9" is an odd one: it's not a mobile device.

I am a sit down behind my desk kind of person. I work and compute behind a desk, with a large display at eye height and a comfortable chair. The iPad Pro isn't suited for this kind of work, as it forces you to look down, which due to back problems I cannot do for longer periods of time. What I really want is a small iOS box I can hook up a display, keyboard, and mouse to. Apple already makes such a box - the Apple TV - so I know they can do it. Mouse and keyboard support is probably coming to iOS over the coming years, and with the Mac Mini languishing, it feels like they might be working on just such a box.

I'd easily pay €500-700 for such a machine.

I know stating iOS is a great general purpose computing platform tends to be controversial - I myself have been skeptical about this very thing for years - but iOS 11 and the iPad Pro have utterly convinced me. This is the platform I want for laptop and desktop computer use. Windows and macOS feel like the past now.

Order by: Score:
Smooth update
by viton on Wed 20th Sep 2017 01:04 UTC
viton
Member since:
2005-08-09

Installed iOS 11 on iPad Air. This is basically a minimum requirement.
So far i love it. Works much better than previous version. Browser could keep more pages in memory for my brief tests.

Reply Score: 2

That jab at the US
by Jesuspower on Wed 20th Sep 2017 01:13 UTC
Jesuspower
Member since:
2006-01-28

So true.
So true.

That said, I've switched to using my iPad for 80% of my 9-5 work since the 11 GM. It really is great.

Just gotta find out how long Apple intends to support it. ;)

Reply Score: 0

Keyboard
by joekiser on Wed 20th Sep 2017 03:59 UTC
joekiser
Member since:
2005-06-30

For those of you using the iPad Pro as your daily driver, what keyboard are you using?

I gave the 12.9 an honest try as my portable device for about three months earlier this year, and ultimately sold it since I could never find a keyboard that felt as good as a cheap laptop. The Razer "mechanical" came close, but had to pair over Bluetooth and be charged separately, and it also made the iPad thicker than a regular laptop.

I also tried carrying around the Magic Keyboard from my wife's Mac, but that was more trouble than convenient.

The lack of a good keyboard is probably my last big hurdle before leaping to an iPad Pro for personal computing.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Keyboard
by Poseidon on Wed 20th Sep 2017 04:35 UTC in reply to "Keyboard"
Poseidon Member since:
2009-10-31

I use the official one, but if you're used to mechanical keyboards or close to mechanical keyboards, it will take a while to get used to. It's not horrible, it's better than most membrane keyboards, but it is indeed a huge change.

I am more a bit let down that Apple doesn't offer it with back light or an optional trackpad, even if it makes it way bigger, but I guess this would eat their MBA sales.

If you can stand it, you could just get the regular Apple Bluetooth keyboard, which is more like a real keyboard, although a lot of people hate the narrow travel, but it is at least full size.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Keyboard
by darknexus on Wed 20th Sep 2017 12:08 UTC in reply to "Keyboard"
darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

I find the official smart keyboard to be comfortable, but keyboards are such a matter of individual tastes. That said, you can use any keyboard you want to so long as it's Bluetooth. If you don't like any of the keyboard cases, get a case for the iPad which lets you prop it at any angle you prefer, and any Bluetooth keyboard you like. You don't have to use the "official" keyboards. You can even use a USB keyboard with the lightning to USB adapter if you really want to, though I'd think that would defeat the portability somewhat.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Keyboard
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 20th Sep 2017 12:11 UTC in reply to "RE: Keyboard"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Yep, I use the Apple Smart Keyboard as well, and even though I thought I'd hate it, I actually quite like it. My only complaint is that the keyboard is a bit too close to the display - I'd love some more space between the two.

Reply Score: 3

It's a really good surprise
by Poseidon on Wed 20th Sep 2017 04:30 UTC
Poseidon
Member since:
2009-10-31

After years of being afraid that Apple would take the UI of iOS and replace macOS with it, the new version of iOS went ahead and did the opposite, making the operating system more like macOS, which is really great.

They also somehow made it snappier on most hardware, which is no small feat, so overall, this is ahead of the latest Android in performance and usability (With the exception of more file system flexibility on Android).

Reply Score: 3

Still a ToyOS
by jpkx1984 on Wed 20th Sep 2017 05:58 UTC
jpkx1984
Member since:
2015-01-06

Still no mouse support, still cannot control iPad over network (I mean to control - not just to view) without jailbreaking the goddamn thing. I happen to work in the field from time to time, logging into my home desktop machine from a Chromebook. I would like to be able to leave the iPad at home (in order to minimize clutter) and test our app remotely on it as well.

Reply Score: 3

It is not the future I'd want
by Darak on Wed 20th Sep 2017 06:46 UTC
Darak
Member since:
2009-10-16

The fact that iOS is the future is extremely clear, and the reason has little to do with performance, usability or convenience and a lot to do with a 30% tax on all software installed on the system.

Apple, just like Microsoft after them, found that adding a store to the mainstream OS doesn't work since there are already competing, established distribution mechanisms in place. Focusing on iOS as the go-to platform for all things is the obvious solution. A lot of work must be done first in order to make iOS 'good enough' for the things it still can't do well, such as multitasking or content creation, which explains the current development. We'll get there eventually.

From the user's point of view, going from OSX to iOS means losing a lot of features. However, removing features from new versions of software is the main trend right now in computing, and one Apple fully embraces, or perhaps even pioneered.

Reply Score: 10

RE: It is not the future I'd want
by shotsman on Wed 20th Sep 2017 10:33 UTC in reply to "It is not the future I'd want"
shotsman Member since:
2005-07-22

30% Tax?
Funnily enough, all the apps on my iPad/iPhone come at zero cost so no 30% tax there but that is just the mix that I have so, YMMV.

Ever tried to sell software commercially? The markup that some stores take is a lot more than 30%.
I did once and 50% was the norm even before volume discounts.

Reply Score: 2

yerverluvinunclebert
Member since:
2014-05-03

Yes of course, I shall switch to IOS 11 on a tablet now for all my general purpose computing needs. Developing cross-platform apps in C# and javascript for the desktop, movie capture, creation and editing, maintaining virtual machines for legacy app. support and maintenance, fine-scale graphical design using photoshop via mouse and pen, audio extraction and manipulation. Writing long and complex articles with embedded images and text content on CMS systems using small, keyboards, on a tiny screen, very suitable. Running multiple applications simultaneously on multiple screens to speed workflow. All these tasks are done in a massively improved manner via such a device, I won't even bother mentioning HD gaming or watching movies on a large HD screen. All these things are fundamentally and totally unsuitable for running on a PC and are infinitely better suited to running on an IOS tablet.

Can I ask a question? Can you feel the depth of the sarcasm?

Reply Score: 5

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Developing cross-platform apps in C# and javascript for the desktop


Download Continuous, or any of the other great iOS IDEs:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/continuous-net-c-and-f-ide/id1095213...

movie capture, creation and editing


Download LumaFusion, or any of the other great video editors on iOS:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/lumafusion/id1062022008?mt=8&ign-mpt...

maintaining virtual machines for legacy app. support and maintenance


VMware, Citrix, etc. all have iOS applications. This isn't my area of expertise - not by a long shot - but I wouldn't be surprised if these apps are actually a lot better than you think.

fine-scale graphical design using photoshop via mouse and pen


Affinity is better than Photoshop.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/affinity-photo/id824183456?mt=12

audio extraction and manipulation


There are countless [professional] audio tools for iOS.

Writing long and complex articles with embedded images and text content on CMS systems using small, keyboards, on a tiny screen, very suitable.


You can connect any keyboard to an iPad. Even mechanical keyboards. Its screen size of 12.9" is right on par with the most popular laptop screen size out there (~13").

And did you read that long, complex review I linked to above? Viticci does all his work on iPads, including writing and creating that complex article. The writing tools for iOS are downright excellent; it's probably the most developed, mature pro aspect of iOS. And you can always resort to very good versions of Word/Excel/etc. and Pages/Numbers/etc. if need be.

Running multiple applications simultaneously on multiple screens to speed workflow.


iOS doesn't do multiple screens yet. You got me there. This clearly means iOS is entirely garbage and useless.

Can I ask a question? Can you feel the depth of the sarcasm?

Edited 2017-09-20 09:04 UTC

Reply Score: 6

dpJudas Member since:
2009-12-10

Download Continuous, or any of the other great iOS IDEs:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/continuous-net-c-and-f-ide/id1095213...

With all due respect, if you were a software developer you wouldn't have used that link as proof that an iOS device is ready to be used for that kind of work.

See that one tab on the screenshots on that page? Well, I have 10 of those visible in Visual Studio right now. That's next to the docked solution explorer, which in itself has additional three tabs. I also might have several Visual Studio's open at the same time, for various reasons.

To top it off, here's a very important review comment on that very same page:

It's amazing to have an IDE like this running on iOS. But until it gets support for Git there's no good way to actually work on real projects. There is a "sources" list when you try to open a file, but it only ever has your local device and I can't figure out how to add things to it.

So in other words, I can't even access source control from the thing. Got it. Top of the line tools for software developers.

Reply Score: 8

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

It was just an example. There are countless others, for a variety of languages.

Reply Score: 1

dpJudas Member since:
2009-12-10

It was just an example. There are countless others, for a variety of languages.

My primary point here was that you can't just search the App Store and paste the first link you find as proof that a platform is suitable/mature for a specific kind of work.

The iPad Pro may have reached a maturity level that convinces you that it is now suitable for your line of business, but you can't extrapolate that to mean this applies to general computing. A lot of the "it just works" is possible because Apple locked down the platform and what apps can do. But those very same limitations is what makes an iPad unsuitable for a lot of other professions.

In any case, unless I'm missing something, the iOS 11 is still limited to a two-app split screen UI. That may work for what you do, but until it has freely resizable windows, has a physical mouse, keyboard, and is attached to a 24" screen it won't be usable as a replacement for what I use today.

Reply Score: 4

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

My primary point here was that you can't just search the App Store and paste the first link you find as proof that a platform is suitable/mature for a specific kind of work.


Oh for sure. I listen to women and men smarter than I (i.e., actual developers and artists) when it comes to these matters, because unlike some [not referring to you], I'm not afraid to rely on the insights of others, and this is one of the IDEs I've had recommended (Pythonista - for Python, as the name implies - is another one people are raving about).

The point I'm trying to make is that a lot of people automatically dismiss anything on iOS not because of inherent shortcomings, but merely because it isn't Windows/Linux/macOS, even though many of these tools are advancing at such a rapid pace a lot people really seem to have no idea just how capable they've become over the years.

Again, I can't reiterate enough that this platform for sure isn't ready for everyone - but it's getting there, at an incredibly rapid pace.

Reply Score: 3

yerverluvinunclebert Member since:
2014-05-03

The point I'm trying to make is that a lot of people automatically dismiss anything on iOS not because of inherent shortcomings, but merely because it isn't Windows/Linux/macOS


When did you make that point and to who? I didn't see anyone arguing that IOS wasn't capable, it is. Perhaps you are arguing with someone who isn't arguing with you.

IOS is just not what you claimed, ie. the future. To state that is to say that it is the be-all and end-all - that future is factually wrong.

Why are other people better "experts" on my use of a computer than, uh, me?


No-one is arguing - yet again - on your own use of IOS. You are the one that wrote the article remember stating it is the future. You have some responsibility when you publish your words. Stand by them or prepare for others to meet your opinions with hard facts.

As you have implied Thom you are not the expert in everything, yet when you were given examples where you were factually wrong you ignored them.

I'm not afraid to rely on the insights of others


I think that's exactly who you are...

When you find someone that knows their stuff it is simpler to accept what they say when they have the relevant experience. To know what platform to perform javascript cross-development just ask the expert as to whether IOS would be suitable not just possible. Find him, ask him. Same with VMs, video editing, CAD CAM, audio production, Scada systems. You can't be an expert in everything so cannot say the future is IOS just because it could potentially do it all, just if you pushed it hard.

Horses-for-courses. Each to his own. That's the truth but that is not the theme behind the article. That is why it is worth this series of arguments. The article is simply wrong.

Someone once wrote an advert for the ZX80 which stated "enough power to run a power station". Hyperbole is what the advert and your article was guilty of.

Reply Score: 1

yerverluvinunclebert Member since:
2014-05-03


Download Continuous, or any of the other great iOS IDEs:


No! Why would I abandon years of knowledge, first rate, ultra-productive tools to learn another platform. The environment is so much more mature, there are hundreds of deeply embedded tools that are experts in their field and many are free. I could do it on a raspberry Pi but it makes no sense to say that we can abandon a mature environment just because in some sense "it can".


Download LumaFusion, or any of the other great video editors on iOS:


Same reasons as above. If I was going to leap to Apple then OS/X might be a practical choice due to its maturity.

maintaining virtual machines for legacy app. support and maintenance


As above but even more important is the fact that running legacy apps on VMs on IOS, well people would laugh in my face. I have no doubt that a Mini Cooper can deliver parcels but have you ever seen a courier company using anything other than a truck/van? Please.

Affinity is better than Photoshop.


Well, that's an opinion and besides that it isn't really relevant, I repeat my same answer to 1 and to my response regarding the truck. Photoshop is THE truck.

There are countless [professional] audio tools for iOS.


Of course there are but anyone who swapped their dedicated high bandwidth, dedicated desktop devices for processing audio using the mature tools available for the environment, instead proposing IOS would, again be laughed out of the studio.

You can connect any keyboard to an iPad. Even mechanical keyboards. Its screen size of 12.9" is right on par with the most popular laptop screen size out there (~13").


Of course you can. A PC already has those things... I can add a truck pickup to the Mini Cooper, I can add reversing beepers, a big diesel engine and a tachometer, I could raise the roof of the cab. It's a mini Cooper and I want a truck! Get real!

On top of that PCs are cheaper, anyone can work on them, they are expandable, use off the shelf components, blah, blah &c &c. Come on!


iOS doesn't do multiple screens yet. You got me there. This clearly means iOS is entirely garbage and useless.


Not just multi screens, proper multi-tasking, multi-user and multi screen. I never said IOS is garbage and useless, you said that. You are losing it!

I am simply countering your inference that the latest version of IOS is the direction to go if you want a general purpose computer, the answer is NO.

IOS is merely starting to catch up in this area.

Your response merely confirms what I have started to suspect. Your fascination with phones and tablets is leading you to becoming one-sided.

PS Edited for spelling mistakes (I should have been using IOS clearly)

Edited 2017-09-20 09:49 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Why would I abandon years of knowledge, first rate, ultra-productive tools to learn another platform.


Ah, so it's not about the merits of the platform - it's about you being lazy. You're free to be lazy - but there's no need to be so aggressive and defensive over traditional desktop computing. Traditional desktop computing will live on just fine. It's not being threatened. You can relax.

is loeading you to becoming one-sided.


...priceless. Just priceless. Thanks for that.

Reply Score: 2

gpsnoopy Member since:
2007-04-17

Time is the most precious resource most people have.

Spending time relearning the entire platform and tool chains to go from a 4-8 cores >4GHz PC 32GB 32" 4K screen to a 12" screen 3GB with an asthmatic CPU/GPU... Well, there must be something that's really worth it at the end.

Maybe it's not laziness? Maybe it's just the correct decision?

Reply Score: 3

David Member since:
1997-10-01

I think Thom's being pissy with his "lazy" comment, but nevertheless, Thom, or anyone else who advocates iOS as a viable full-time computing platform isn't necessarily saying that it's the right platform for you, but that it's potentially a viable platform for even high-performance professional computer users.

Just because I've been using a Mac in my job developing software for a long time doesn't mean that someone who's been using another platform wouldn't have a tough time adapting, especially if they have to learn new apps in addition to new OS conventions.

Reply Score: 3

yerverluvinunclebert Member since:
2014-05-03

it's about you being lazy.


I'm stunned by that. What sort of response is that? Me lazy because I have expertise and knowledge on a platform. Are you really arguing that? That was merely an insult. As I said you are losing it, not me.

aggressive and defensive, I can relax?


I don't have to be defensive about the general purpose computing environment it speaks for itself. I don't think the desktop environment is even vaguely threatened by IOS and I wouldn't even care if it was. I have no personal allegiance to anything but the facts. That comment wasn't relevant and I am clever enough to recognise when you are making a personal dig at me - that is inappropriate and not worthy of you.

Aggressive? I am just countering your sweeping statements with facts that are so self-evident that it shocks me that a man who runs a site called OS news has the gall to even try to refute some of the things I have said when they ought to be utterly self-evident.

This stuff is basic. You know it I am sure, you have just convinced yourself you are right. Why would you bother to even argue? The whole premise of your article is misleading.

...priceless. Just priceless. Thanks for that.


I think you need to take stock and rethink that's all.

Your article would have been better off if it had focussed upon the increased usability of IOS as desktop replacement for the less technically minded users. As a cooking-computer for the kitchen, as a competent mobile platform that can do the stuff that a desktop can at a pinch, perhaps with not the best and most applicable applications but ones that will able to do the job, just. Stating that IOS is getting there but with all the limitations that a closed-source, closed environment that few real organisations use for general purpose computing due to its relative immaturity.

No need to be aggressive, facts speak for themselves. If I was aggressive then it would be clear. You are mistaking valid and forcefully-made responses for aggression. You read in the aggression yourself as you are on the defensive and you feel exposed.

Your answers are exactly the same so I'll point the finger straight back at you.

PS. Written on an old core2duo, 10 years old with a proper screen, proper keyboard, whilst editing javascript code, photoshop, skype, email and browsing here. We've been doing this stuff on the desktop using a mature general purpose computing environment for years and years.

Edited: Oh yes and it cost £50.

Edited 2017-09-20 10:38 UTC

Reply Score: 3

avgalen Member since:
2010-09-23

I cannot easily find an answer to these questions, but could you tell me if:
* Mice are supported
* external screen is supported
* multi-monitor is supported
* Running the same program twice is supported
Because those are all things that I would consider basic OS features for productivity

As far as I know there is also no multi-user support at all (so my wife sees all my email when she checks hers?) except for some special student edition
And I believe that the only way (except for internet-synching) to get data onto the device would be through dongles/camerakits and will only work if the app supports "external files"

It does look like the iPad Pro is great hardware...
and that iOS is moving in the right direction for productivity...
and that some pro apps are becoming available that actually can compete with some "desktop apps"
...but for now even the top of the line iPad Pro with the newest OS cannot do most of the things I do daily at work, can only do it on a very small screen and cannot be shared safely among family members

Please correct me if I am wrong on any of these statements. I only have an iPad 2 (same timeframe as my laptop) and it stopped receiving updates a long time ago (while that same timeframe laptop is happily running the latest Windows)

Reply Score: 5

gan17 Member since:
2008-06-03

Affinity is better than Photoshop


Nope. Still some ways to go. It's RAW conversion is mediocre for anything other than iPhone and Canon files. It lacks Photoshop's 3D LUT support. More importantly, it lacks support for the extensive ecosystem of Photoshop plugins, nor does it have any decent resources online for aiding Photoshop users that would be considering it as an alternative. Lastly, the iPad version has issues with file management (can't open certain kinds of files from local storage and forces you to go through iCloud) and is still rather buggy (both Mac/Win and iPad versions) in places.

The iPad Pro's just not there yet for image editing. For starters, simply transferring the images (via Apple's Lightning-SD dongle) is painful. It just shoves everything into your Camera Roll. You can't specify a preferred folder. Color management across various apps is still a bit of an enigma, though at least the factory calibration out of the box is more accurate than almost any desktop monitor available. Adobe's own iOS apps are way too castrated compared to what their desktop offerings, which is a shame because Lightroom on the iPad Pro simply crushes the spec'd out 5K iMac in my office for speed rendering 1:1 previews.

Not saying there's no future on iPad for image editing - I want it to succeed - but it's just not there yet if you're even half-serious about photography.

Reply Score: 8

yerverluvinunclebert Member since:
2014-05-03

Well said. The same argument applies on almost all his argued points. The mature platform and the well-developed program is always the better one to specify.

To argue that Affinity is better than Photoshop? For some reason Thom has gone off the rails on this one. Who would argue that learning something other Photoshop was anything other than a long term mistake?

Affinity? GIMP is arguably better than Photoshop except that in reality it isn't. There is no point in arguing this stuff with experts who know better.

I couldn't use GIMP or Affinity for any of the things I need it to do. The only reason I use photoshop is because of the enormous number of free resources, the investment in manpower and time, the stability and maturity in what it offers. Photoshop is my default IDE for graphical application development using conversion scripts that create XML descriptions for desktop apps that run on Windows and Android. Can Affinity do any of this? No. Affinity is not better than Photoshop at all for an infinity of reasons!

Thom's credibility has been damaged by articles and arguments like these and I'd like him to put him back on the rails. For his sake and my own - as I like this site and what it offers. The site's articles generally makes sense but not this one and certainly not Thom's biased response.

He hasn't realised that his opinions are not facts. He thinks that other's facts are opinions and in addition he judges them as being of less importance than his own. In this case he is WRONG.

Edited 2017-09-20 12:00 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

I'd like him to put him back on the rails.


Well, I'm glad you're here to tell me that I'm wrong for finding the iPad Pro a perfectly fine general purpose platform, even though I specifically mention that I in no way wish to claim that such would apply to everyone.

I'll sell my iPad Pro right away, and go back to a clunky laptop with a maintenance intensive operating system with garbage battery life. Crisis averted. ;)

Edited 2017-09-20 11:58 UTC

Reply Score: 5

Sidux Member since:
2015-03-10

I guess the easier question to ask now is: Are you ready to take on cloud as your single point of computing power?
The rest are just GUI's to something managed elsewhere that will be further enhanced upon.

Reply Score: 3

yerverluvinunclebert Member since:
2014-05-03

Well, I'm glad you're here to tell me that I'm wrong for finding the iPad Pro a perfectly fine general purpose platform,


Your quote again and not mine. I think it would be a perfect platform for a lot of people. Your comments are what I am responding to.

it's the future


only for certain users/tasks as demonstrated.

Windows and macOS feel like the past now.


er...no.

No macOS or Windows laptop is as responsive and fluid as this iPad Pro.


Depends upon what you are doing!

I'd easily pay €500-700 for such a machine.


I'd easily pay £50 for such a machine. I'm using it now!

Unlike macOS or Windows, I don't have to spend time fighting with iOS 11 to get it to do what I want


I have fought the good fight with IOS in previous versions to get it to do anything other than the bare basics. Perhaps I am a power user?

If IOS 11 finally manages to release its potential then great, it's about time! From your tone it is the be-all and end-all but it is not, IOS is merely catching up. Thank goodness for that, maybe we can have an adult experience with the os as it matures.

Perhaps, the next step would be to open the environment, allow industry standard binaries to operate so we can run our 32bit and 64bit applications without fear that the os will change so much in two years as to make them unusable.

I'll sell my iPad Pro right away, and go back to a clunky laptop with a maintenance intensive operating system with garbage battery life. Crisis averted. ;)


You are losing the plot Thom. What's up with you? You aren't normally like this. Addition of a smiley face isn't an argument-winning answer.

The desktop PC environment isn't for everyone but that's the point. I recognise that each device suits its user but IOS as a general purpose computing environment? No, it is nowhere near ready for that as other more mature environments already exist. IOS is merely showing its potential in this market, it is capable, it currently has a niche market that is aiming for a wider uptake, that's all. My ipad-using kids are growing up and they might have been growing with the os, that's the sort of potential market (except they aren't as my kid's ipads won't run IOS 11).

Oh yes, ...and when are you going to reply to all the other points where you were found out to be factually incorrect or close to insulting?

Edited for typos (I really should be using IOS)

Edited 2017-09-20 12:27 UTC

Reply Score: 2

woegjiub Member since:
2008-11-25

I think his original article would be more acceptable to you if you mentally add "for me" to most of those claims. It's how I read it.

It performs like a dream... To him
It's a superior alternative to a PC... To him

Your tools and workflows aren't yet available on that platform. That's fine. Just means that unlike a professional translator or writer, it's not for you (yet?)

Android is nearly there for me, and I'm a developer.
Let me run docker or minikube, and because I use vim and a command line environment alongside a web browser as my main tools, it would suffice. (I make mostly REST APIs, so the CLI ecosystem is the strongest, and I find it infinitely more powerful than what I consider clunky shit like visual studio)

Doesn't mean it would work for you.

Reply Score: 4

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

I think his original article would be more acceptable to you if you mentally add "for me" to most of those claims. It's how I read it.

It performs like a dream... To him
It's a superior alternative to a PC... To him


Yup. Writing "...for me" after every single line is kind of dumb, though, which is why I very specifically stated this isn't for everyone.

Reply Score: 2

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Download Continuous, or any of the other great iOS IDEs


a) that doesn't support javascript
b) how do you know it's great?


If you're a serious software developer I sincerely doubt IOS 11 is going to meet your needs for an IDE at this point in time.

Edited 2017-09-20 12:34 UTC

Reply Score: 6

henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

"Download Continuous, or any of the other great iOS IDEs


a) that doesn't support javascript

"

Supports C#. Allows the developer to code on device.


b) how do you know it's great?


It works. It is due an update fairly soon (supposedly in review) and will be a lot more advanced after that point.


If you're a serious software developer I sincerely doubt IOS 11 is going to meet your needs for an IDE at this point in time.


Depends what you are doing. Continuous is pretty much in line with VSCode and the C# integration in that.

Reply Score: 1

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Supports C#. Allows the developer to code on device.


But the OP needed both, which makes this IDE useless for his purposes.

It works


That's not the same as great though. Seriously, Thom recommending "great" IDE's to developers is as absurd as me telling professional recording engineers they should switch to Linux because it has great DAW's. I'm not a professional recording engineers, my recommendations are worthless.

Thom could just have said "this seems to be something it's not suitable for" and this thread would have stopped. Instead he got defensive and tried to tell people what they should use.

Reply Score: 4

henderson101 Member since:
2006-05-30

"Developing cross-platform apps in C# and javascript for the desktop


Download Continuous, or any of the other great iOS IDEs:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/continuous-net-c-and-f-ide/id1095213...
"

Which is due a bug update and will include (if I read the tweet the developer put out recently) nuget support. You are still able to develop apps at the moment, just slightly restricted with the packages included.

Reply Score: 3

sonOf65816 Member since:
2017-09-20

Interestingly, iOS *can* do multiple screens- but it's a feature that requires individual support from the app developer, and it's rarely used. A couple of games use it (have the gameplay split across an external screen like a TV, and the actual device).

Of course, iOS would need to have true keyboard with mouse support before they go exploring putting apps on a second display- that is not a touch screen ;)

Reply Score: 3

gehersh Member since:
2006-01-03

There will be a day when developing cross-platform application on C# will become a general computing need. Alas, we're not here yet, probably for another 100 years. And then, of course, your sarcasm will be sufficiently deep. You're just ahead of the curve, dude.

Reply Score: 2

yerverluvinunclebert Member since:
2014-05-03

At the moment the only cross platform development I am seriously attempting is occurring in javascript through various desktop frameworks and engines that function natively on Windows, Mac OS/X and Android. Successful and tested, apps produced in javascript and quite big ones too.

I am attempting C# Mono on ReactOS but purely as a test so we have three major o/s covered on javascript (not including the web) and a potential other new target for C#. Linux is currently a mere thought as is OS/X as a platform for for C# but it is feasible, I have insufficient Linux experience to attempt it but others have done it.

I try to keep abreast of developments if not ahead...

Edited to add mono os/x

Edited 2017-09-21 00:26 UTC

Reply Score: 2

Comment by antonone
by antonone on Wed 20th Sep 2017 08:45 UTC
antonone
Member since:
2006-02-03

I've read 5 paragraphs of text and I still don't know what this note is about. I mean, it's about installing new IOS update, but why? I know nothing besides it's better (from author's POV).

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by antonone
by wigry on Wed 20th Sep 2017 10:16 UTC in reply to "Comment by antonone"
wigry Member since:
2008-10-09

This note assumes you have watched the Apple keynote about iPad features in iOS11. Note just states that the advertised eatures indeed work well. Heres the link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SiHV4mOSv4

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by antonone
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 20th Sep 2017 10:22 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by antonone"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

I specifically linked to the MacRumors overview and the two detailed reviews for this very purpose.

Reply Score: 2

Dat price doe
by Soulbender on Wed 20th Sep 2017 11:50 UTC
Soulbender
Member since:
2005-08-18

For the configuration I'd need it would end up at almost $1500.
Yeah.
That's not happening.

Reply Score: 4

Mixing UIs again Thom?
by darknexus on Wed 20th Sep 2017 12:12 UTC
darknexus
Member since:
2008-07-15

So, let me get this straight... you don't want the touch UI imposed on desktops, but you do want the desktop UI, mouse and all, imposed on touch devices? The logical ends of these two are the same: a match made in hell between two UIs that just don't mix together. Personally I think something stylus-based would fit the need for precision more than trying to retrofit mouse support into a UI that was never designed for it. How well has Android worked out when used in this way? Not well at all.

Reply Score: 5

yerverluvinunclebert
Member since:
2014-05-03

The experts are chiming in here Thom. It is time to admit defeat.

Your article was like being unfaithful in a elevator.

"wrong on so many levels".

Reply Score: 1

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

The experts are chiming in here Thom.


Why are other people better "experts" on my use of a computer than, uh, me?

You clearly have a bone to pick with the fact that I, personally, consider the iPad Pro with iOS 11 a great general purpose computing platform. For some reason, as evidenced by the tone of your comments, this offends or threatens you. This puzzles me, since I made it crystal clear I was not claiming this would apply to everyone.

The fact that you think of this in terms of "win" and "defeat" is very revealing. You seem to see this as a battle - a battle between what? If you regard this as a battle, there's no way for me or anyone else to win, because all you have to do is come up with some arcane thing the iPad can't do or can't do as well, and you'll claim you've "won".

A car can't shit as well as a horse. Clearly, horses are better.

Anyhow, I'm not here to win a battle - all I'm doing is saying that for me, the iPad Pro with iOS 11 is the inflection point where I can comfortably say I want this platform as my main general purpose computing platform - again, while stating very clearly that this will not apply to everyone.

But hey, if it makes you happy: you won. I'm not entirely sure what, but I don't really mind.

Reply Score: 1

avgalen Member since:
2010-09-23

Thom, I think most people commenting here are powerusers and take issue with you here because you are calling 1 device with 1 version of the OS for 1 person (you) a "great general purpose computing platform"

Nobody is doubting that you love this device with the new OS. Nobody is doubting that you can get your work done on it. But you are calling it THE future instead of A future and call other platforms THE PAST, all of that in general.

Currently your setup wouldn't even support the most basic features that others need to get their work done. So no, this isn't a great general purpose computing platform yet, not by a long shot.

PS, when the iPad came out it had 10 hours of battery life while generic computers were powerful. Since then iPads focused on improving their power while generic computers focused on improving their form factor and battery life. Claiming that the iPad Pro is now ridiculously fast (it is) while claiming that generic computers are still clunky and ugly with only a few hours of battery life is disingenuous!

Reply Score: 5

yerverluvinunclebert Member since:
2014-05-03

You seem to see this as a battle - a battle between what? If you regard this as a battle


It is a battle - it is your battle with reality that is the issue (to quote Monty Python).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c

because all you have to do is come up with some arcane thing the iPad can't do or can't do as well


No. Never said an ipad can't do it. It can. It is capable. That is a different argument. You are getting muddled and you keep adding things that were never said. Ipads are capable but they aren't the future as you espoused it. They just aren't for the reasons given. Respond to those reasons if you want but don't come up with crazy inanities like this:

A car can't shit as well as a horse. Clearly, horses are better.


That was just not required and non sequitur.

Anyhow, I'm not here to win a battle


Yes you are, you are only here to win the argument in the face of real hard facts. I think of this in terms of a win for hard facts not a win for me.

I don't really mind.


Yes you do. It galls you that you were called out on a well-written article that you really thought was a game-changer.

I like your articles, been reading them for years. You normally get it right and I am happy to support and comment favourably. This one though, you over-reached.

Factually incorrect, opinion and hyperbole.

Don't complain about the response, you are the one publishing, be prepared for the maelstrom if you get it wrong. I think you know you got it wrong and that's why you haven't responded to and accepted the actual points made earlier by me and by others.

Have a re-read from the top and see if what we are saying is really incorrect.

When I (or anyone) use IOS as my/their daily o/s for cross platform development (because it is the best) graphical design (because it is the most appropriate), running legacy apps on VMs for clients (because it is stable and an industry standard), doing movie and sound editing (on an affordable and powerful platform), doing 3D CAD design on a cost/timescale that precludes using any Apple kit at all, when it becomes the platform of choice for all these general purpose computing activities then I will come here and formally eat my hat.

Edited: to add the Monty Python link - easily done on IOS.

Edited 2017-09-20 14:10 UTC

Reply Score: 2

darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

Ah, the old "I proclaim myself and all who agree with me as experts" game. So typical of online forums. You guys all remind me of little kids on the playground fighting over who has the best toy. Let's just admit that the general purpose computer is any computer on which that person can do their general work, and have done with it. This pointless bickering has become an ego contest.

Reply Score: 3

Only one more thing needed
by darknexus on Wed 20th Sep 2017 12:43 UTC
darknexus
Member since:
2008-07-15

iOS 11 is about as close to perfect as I've yet seen in a tablet. I was already using it for most of my network administration work anyway. It got better with iOS 10.2 (the silent addition of full ethernet support was a god send) and with iOS 11, it has become amazing indeed. It flies on my 2016 iPad Pro. It only lacks one thing: support for general USB drives. I don't need it for transferring my own files (I have combination Lightning and USB flash drives if I need physical transfer) but for when others give me a thumb drive. Typically the thumb drives handed out at meetings and the like are not Lightning-equipped.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Only one more thing needed
by sonOf65816 on Wed 20th Sep 2017 19:06 UTC in reply to "Only one more thing needed"
sonOf65816 Member since:
2017-09-20

There are those little wireless boxes that have USB ports. You can connect to them with an app (or presumably with Files in the near future) and access a USB stick plugged in. But if your coworkers are anything like most of the people on this forum, prepare to have rotten eggs or tomatoes thrown at you for accomodating your own needs...

Reply Score: 1

Ridiculous
by pmac on Wed 20th Sep 2017 12:57 UTC
pmac
Member since:
2009-07-08

This comments section is ridiculous. Obviously, an iPad with iOS 11 is perfect for some people, and not enough for others. There's really no argument. Most ordinary people would be happiest with the simplest device they can feasibly use. For Thom, that's an iPad. For most developers, that's a desktop OS, at least for now.

Also, I'm pretty sure you can use a bluetooth keyboard with iPads. And I don't think mouse support will happen, even though it works nicely in the iOS simulator. Also, Coda is very good for Javascript on iOS: https://panic.com/coda-ios/

Edited 2017-09-20 12:59 UTC

Reply Score: 3

RE: Ridiculous
by yerverluvinunclebert on Wed 20th Sep 2017 13:15 UTC in reply to "Ridiculous"
yerverluvinunclebert Member since:
2014-05-03

This comments section is ridiculous.


Yes it is.

Obviously, an iPad with iOS 11 is perfect for some people, and not enough for others.


Yes!

There's really no argument. Most ordinary people would be happiest with the simplest device they can feasibly use. For Thom, that's an iPad.


Yes!

For most developers, that's a desktop OS, at least for now.


Yes!

Coda is very good for Javascript on iOS:


Possibly but I wouldn't use it as it is not optimal for what I have to do.

Almost total agreement. You were logical and what you said made sense. So, no argument.

Reply Score: 3

non-mobile iOS 11
by avgalen on Wed 20th Sep 2017 14:10 UTC
avgalen
Member since:
2010-09-23

That being said - my only complaint about the 2017 iPad Pro 12.9" is an odd one: it's not a mobile device.

I think you made a typo there or I really don't follow you.

A mobile device (phone, tablet, ultrabook) would be a device that is primarily used unplugged and in different places, an iPad Pro would surely fit this category

If you meant that your iPad Pro doesn't need to be a mobile device because you use it more like a portable computer I think many iPad Pro users would agree with you. I think there is a category of people that would like the internals of an iPad Pro inside a MacMini form factor (with more IO like USB and external monitors)
That is basically the part of the iPad Pro I don't understand. It is too powerful and expensive for the thing most people would use it for, and to limited by IO and software for what people would like to use it for

Reply Score: 3

RE: non-mobile iOS 11
by viton on Thu 21st Sep 2017 07:02 UTC in reply to "non-mobile iOS 11"
viton Member since:
2005-08-09

"That being said - my only complaint about the 2017 iPad Pro 12.9" is an odd one: it's not a mobile device.

I think you made a typo there or I really don't follow you.
"
It is too big to be mobile. You need a pretty large bag to carry it. An idea of taking Pro out of home/office is ridiculous to me.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: non-mobile iOS 11
by darknexus on Thu 21st Sep 2017 13:55 UTC in reply to "RE: non-mobile iOS 11"
darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

"[q]That being said - my only complaint about the 2017 iPad Pro 12.9" is an odd one: it's not a mobile device.

I think you made a typo there or I really don't follow you.
"
It is too big to be mobile. You need a pretty large bag to carry it. An idea of taking Pro out of home/office is ridiculous to me. [/q]
Since when did 13-inch become too large? I take it with me everywhere I might need to VPN in and do work. I'm sure not going to do server admin stuff on my iPhone--the plus isn't big enough for that and I'm damned if I'll work in a server without a keyboard. It's the same size as any laptop I'd prefer, but lighter. It's a win/win for me. Now, if you're carrying both the iPad Pro *and* a laptop, then I agree and a 13-inch iPad Pro might not be the best fit for you.

Reply Score: 3

Apple Fanboyism
by aliver on Wed 20th Sep 2017 14:42 UTC
aliver
Member since:
2011-03-19

Apple could put out a pet rock, call it an iRock, and Thom would write some glowing article about it. No matter how collectivist and hyper-conforming Apple goes with their draconian App-store, high prices, sealed batteries, or UX groupthink there are people who will flag-wave for them. I personally find Apple's behavior appalling and their products ultra-dumbed-down disposable consumer tripe. They lost my interest after they ditched the M68k architecture. Emoji keys and attractive looking but crippled "apps" that place form higher than function aren't nearly enough to get it back.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Apple Fanboyism
by pmac on Wed 20th Sep 2017 14:48 UTC in reply to "Apple Fanboyism"
pmac Member since:
2009-07-08

Thom is usually not that supportive of Apple at all. Your comment made me laugh because it's definitely true that no matter what he writes he gets accused of pro/anti Apple/Google/Microsoft/Linux bias. Can't it just be his honest opinion? His opinion of the iPad holds more weight with me given that he usually is quite critical of Apple products.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Apple Fanboyism
by yerverluvinunclebert on Wed 20th Sep 2017 15:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Apple Fanboyism"
yerverluvinunclebert Member since:
2014-05-03

Opinion is fine and that's normal, we all have opinions, read the article and you'll see what he means by fanboyism. I've not seen Thom have quite as religious experience as his latest piece demonstrates. That was dangerously close to fanboyism, possibly beyond.

Reply Score: 0

Get a room
by NotGoingDumb on Wed 20th Sep 2017 15:32 UTC
NotGoingDumb
Member since:
2011-02-26

Get a room already! Be sure your precious iPad Pro has a silicone cover as iOS 11 doesn't offer that kind of protection.

Reply Score: 0

vocivus
Member since:
2010-03-13

I like my ipad pro with iOS 11, but it's impossible to use er... "legacy" enterprise web apps without a mouse or a reasonable browser (which doesn't exist in iOS). The peoplesoft-y and oracle-y crap we're forced to use just doesn't work in safari or chrome.

I don't suggest that this is apple's fault, but there is no way to get out of using a real computer as long as these things exist. And so help me, I've really tried.

Reply Score: 2

Analytics on by default!
by avgalen on Wed 20th Sep 2017 22:21 UTC
avgalen
Member since:
2010-09-23

I am surely not going to read the entire 25 pages article, but on the 2nd page this caught my eye:

If you agree with the selection proposed by Apple, iOS 11 will enable Find My iPhone with Activation Lock, location services, and analytics. It’s a win-win for everyone: Apple opts more users into anonymized usage analytics, feeding their Differential Privacy engine with more data; and users end up with an essential security setting enabled at setup.

I personally do agree that these are the best default settings, but for everyone in the "Windows 10 is spying on you"-camp you will probably want to change these settings.

I was also very surprised by how many steps the "out-of-box-experience" on IOS had. Shouldn't the "OS of the future" basically have a "connect to Wifi, connect to your Apple account, import all settings" experience?

Reply Score: 3

RE: Analytics on by default!
by darknexus on Thu 21st Sep 2017 13:49 UTC in reply to "Analytics on by default!"
darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

Well, I don't use express setup no matter what the program or os is. I'm a control freak I guess ;) .

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Analytics on by default!
by avgalen on Thu 21st Sep 2017 20:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Analytics on by default!"
avgalen Member since:
2010-09-23

I expect most of the people on this site don't use setup-defaults for their preferred OS.

I wish there was an easy way for every program, including the OS, to go through an installation while getting presented with as many questions as is needed and been given a "save my answers to my account for next time I install this software".
If I can also press "Share with my friends/company" that would be awesome.
This doesn't sound hard to program as the setup program is collecting all that information anyway

Reply Score: 2

Other OSes?
by zima on Thu 21st Sep 2017 16:54 UTC
zima
Member since:
2005-07-06

So, where does that leave Android on tablets? Or for that matter Windows on convertible laptops? (like Lenovo Yoga series; from my totally unscientific observations they seem to finally becoming semi-popular...)

Reply Score: 3

RE: Other OSes?
by darknexus on Thu 21st Sep 2017 17:21 UTC in reply to "Other OSes?"
darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

Well, until Microsoft decides to not be inconsistent and sometimes, maybe, sort of, do real touch support in some places, I don't see Windows on convertibles really being much use as a tablet os. They're more like laptops with touch screens at this point, and that includes the Surface Pro. Android... the os is largely fine, but the apps really suck for tablets. Most of them are just stretched out phone apps with zero tablet optimizations.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Other OSes?
by yerverluvinunclebert on Thu 21st Sep 2017 20:15 UTC in reply to "RE: Other OSes?"
yerverluvinunclebert Member since:
2014-05-03

Windows is appalling as a tablet o/s. I just disposed of two Linx 7" tablets and wrote this review on amazon. Forgive me for quoting it in full here:

"We had two of these tablets and initially we were most impressed, decent quad core processor, good quality screen and full windows in a compact package. It is exactly what I had previously wanted. Having tried the tablet my beliefs were soon disabused. The device is very slow and any form of multi tasking seems to slow it to a crawl, dropbox synchronising in the background - forget trying to use it to browse the web. The wireless is very poor and a single wall will reduce signal strength to a point where it becomes unusable. Storage is reasonable but 1gb of memory is simply not enough to run packages that we all tend to use. Battery life is poor. There are some good concepts behind a small windows tablet like this but it has to have at least 4gb of memory, 32/64gb of storage and a more powerful wireless card and cpu, the 10" Linx 32 tablet approaches this spec. and is much more usable. Windows 10 is a real problem on the 7" tablet, you are forced to use Microsoft's crappy tablet mode and that limits its usability in desktop mode, restricting it to simple app usage. You cannot even zoom the desktop nor does the on-screen keyboard pop up when you have a text field to fill. This is actually the fault of Microsoft and not the tablet but it is another step toward making the Linx 7 unusable. Both devices bought were discarded as being useless as stuttering, lagging, refusing to respond was a minute by minute occurrence. Why would anyone buy Windows as a tablet o/s? Only a fool would do so. A better o/s might have been Android, I should imagine Android running quite well on this tablet though I have not tried it"

I am sure the tablet was a fine bit of kit, it was just Windows that ruined the experience.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Other OSes?
by zima on Fri 22nd Sep 2017 01:55 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Other OSes?"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

basically you had issues mostly with cheap hardware and not the OS...

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Other OSes?
by yerverluvinunclebert on Fri 22nd Sep 2017 08:27 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Other OSes?"
yerverluvinunclebert Member since:
2014-05-03

basically you had issues mostly with cheap hardware and not the OS...


Possibly, but I have the same spec. hardware running Android and it is fast, slick and usable. The Android o/s is designed for phone operation and it scales up to smaller tablets reasonably. Windows is just the wrong os for tablets and small devices and it does not down-scale. Andromeda is Microsoft's admission to this situation allowing a modular approach and the ability to build a Windows-alike o/s that is more suited to the abilities of the device, be it large or small.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Other OSes?
by zima on Fri 22nd Sep 2017 13:42 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Other OSes?"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

But Windows has shown it can scale down well, in the form of Windows Phone. Which reminds me of recent comment here: http://www.osnews.com/permalink?649106 from which I quote:

The only "modern," post-iOS mobile OS/device that I've used that was unambiguously faster & more responsive than webOS was Windows Phone 8 on a Lumia 520

...which seems to be the consensus regarding WP, slick & smooth (and worthy of note is that Lumia 520 is an entry-level device)

Perhaps the problems you had with your Windows tablet stem from, I quote you, "and full windows in a compact package" - full so with all the legacy & cruft ...so you should have known better than to buy a 1 GiB of RAM full Windows device in 2017 ;) (1 GiB was the norm on PCs more than a decade ago...)

As for Android beeing "fast, slick and usable" on low-powered devices - that's not an universal impression. This in turn reminded me one recent OSNews article: http://www.osnews.com/story/29924/Android_is_a_dead_end where Thom writes:

Android in its current form suffers from several key architectural problems - it's not nearly as resource-efficient as, say, iOS [... ]and despite hefty hardware, still suffers from the occasional performance problems, among other things - that Google clearly hasn't been able to solve.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: Other OSes?
by yerverluvinunclebert on Fri 22nd Sep 2017 15:08 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Other OSes?"
yerverluvinunclebert Member since:
2014-05-03

But Windows has shown it can scale down well, in the form of Windows Phone.


Windows phone is very good on the Lumia 520 but that isn't 'big' Windows as we know it. No access to desktop. Restricted to a big-button GUI. Unable to run real Windows programs (due to power and space and ability I wouldn't even try). As a pure phone it was OK but there was almost no pretence to being a 'real' computer. It was simply a phone and it was used as such to make calls, nothing else. In that sense only Windows phone excelled as a phone interface. I was really impressed with it. My wife (non computer user loved it). However the Lumia's version of windows seems to have recently been abandoned...

Perhaps the problems you had with your Windows tablet stem from, I quote you, "and full windows in a compact package" - full so with all the legacy & cruft ...so you should have known better than to buy a 1 GiB of RAM full Windows device in 2017 ;) (1 GiB was the norm on PCs more than a decade ago...)


No, because we have several Androids/ipads at equal or lower specs. that run perfectly well.

As for Android being "fast, slick and usable" on low-powered devices - that's not an universal impression. T


Of course it isn't suited to every user but the LG devices we use as current stock of phones are superbly slick devices in all senses. Real life experience here.

Android in its current form suffers from several key architectural problems


Agreed - That is apparent if you know real oses and what they can do/how they do it. However, from the consumer point of view, you open the box and it works! Same as Apple IOS, it works. Android is SO much cheaper though. I use an LG3 & 5 and the thing flies so much faster and is so much more open than my daughter's iphone 6. You can install more or less anything and it functions, so impressed by both.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Other OSes?
by zima on Mon 25th Sep 2017 12:07 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Other OSes?"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Windows phone is very good on the Lumia 520 but that isn't 'big' Windows as we know it. No access to desktop. Restricted to a big-button GUI. Unable to run real Windows programs (due to power and space and ability I wouldn't even try). As a pure phone it was OK but there was almost no pretence to being a 'real' computer. It was simply a phone and it was used as such to make calls, nothing else. In that sense only Windows phone excelled as a phone interface. I was really impressed with it. My wife (non computer user loved it). However the Lumia's version of windows seems to have recently been abandoned...

That's what scaling down means, chopping off the unneeded parts / legacy / cruft...

No, because we have several Androids/ipads at equal or lower specs. that run perfectly well.

But they don't have to deal with all the "legacy & cruft"... do you even read what I wrote?

>As for Android being "fast, slick and usable" on low-powered devices - that's not an universal impression. T

Of course it isn't suited to every user but the LG devices we use as current stock of phones are superbly slick devices in all senses. Real life experience here.

>Android in its current form suffers from several key architectural problems

Agreed - That is apparent if you know real oses and what they can do/how they do it.

So decide, which one is it?

However, from the consumer point of view, you open the box and it works! Same as Apple IOS, it works. Android is SO much cheaper though. I use an LG3 & 5 and the thing flies so much faster and is so much more open than my daughter's iphone 6. You can install more or less anything and it functions, so impressed by both.

In latest news piece here there are several people disagreeing with "flies so much faster"... http://www.osnews.com/comments/30018

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Other OSes?
by darknexus on Fri 22nd Sep 2017 13:26 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Other OSes?"
darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

Fortunately for him. Had he had a decent-spec tablet he would have discovered how bad Windows on a tablet really is. I have, at my desk, a Dell Latitude 7275 convertable. It has a nice core M processor (don't remember which one and am a bit too lazy to get it out and check), 8 gb ram, and a 256 gb SSD. Battery life is just as bad as described, though I put that down mostly to Dell's horrible battery choice (a 2-cell, seriously?). What isn't specific to this tablet is the absolutely horrible touch experience on Windows 10. The on-screen keyboard not coming up is only the beginning of the problems. With no apps really designed to be used via touch (including Microsoft's own), trying to use this thing as a tablet becomes an exercise in masochism. The icons are too small (this is a 12.9, same as my iPad Pro), the scroll gestures rarely work and never consistently, and forget about doing anything useful with drag and drop via multitouch because it isn't happening. Add to this the fact that you never really know what experience you'll get in tablet mode (sometimes it kicks in, sometimes not) and it's just not worth it. A few people have Windows tablets here, and you know what? They're always in laptop mode because Windows on a tablet is worse than useless. No wonder Windows RT sold horribly, if this is its successor.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Other OSes?
by zima on Fri 22nd Sep 2017 13:48 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Other OSes?"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Oh well ...should I believe the promises that it'll become better in the next version? ;) (because I'm thinking of getting some ~tablet with pen input for taking notes when/if I'll return to studying in a year, or two, or three; the convertible form factor is probably the most appealing to me, owing to good keyboards...)

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Other OSes?
by zima on Fri 22nd Sep 2017 13:53 UTC in reply to "RE: Other OSes?"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Android... the os is largely fine, but the apps really suck for tablets. Most of them are just stretched out phone apps with zero tablet optimizations.

At least the browsers situation is much better than on iOS... so probably Android is fine already if all/most of what you do on a tablet is browsing/reading.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Other OSes?
by darknexus on Fri 22nd Sep 2017 16:37 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Other OSes?"
darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

Personally, I don't give a damn which browser engine I'm using as long as it supports web standards well enough. The lack of productivity apps for Android hurts it, for me, far more than lack of browser choice on iOS. Ymmv of course, and it's all about how you use the device and for what. The only thing I really miss, between Android and iOS, is the USB flash drive support which is present in some versions of Android but that's not a stock feature and doesn't always work as expected.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Other OSes?
by zima on Mon 25th Sep 2017 12:25 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Other OSes?"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Personally, I don't give a damn which browser engine I'm using as long as it supports web standards well enough.

And Safari moves slowly when it comes to adopting new standards ...it's basically the new IE6.

Oh well, I figure I have at least a year to decide with which OS/ecosystem to go. It might be Win10 with pen if they fix their issues (Win11? ;) ), it might be Android with Evernote & simple capacitive pen (probably enough for notes/equations/diagrams) ...though I doubt it will be iOS. ;) I have become cheap, now I would never spend 1000+€ on a ~computer like I did 17 years ago. Plus there's the issue of perception... I mean, I adored and recommended Apple a decade ago; I got an iPod in a place where they were quite rare; Apple fans back then were... cute. But the success spoiled Apple & its vocal fans, I guess; now they're crazy / I don't want to be associated with people like this:
http://www.osnews.com/story/29448/_Pixel_iPhone_7_and_grading_on_a_...
http://www.osnews.com/story/28618/_Make_the_world_a_better_place_

Reply Score: 2

RE: Other OSes?
by Soulbender on Fri 22nd Sep 2017 04:47 UTC in reply to "Other OSes?"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Considering that most Android tablets are a fraction of the price of an iPad Pro they'll do fine for a long time still.

Reply Score: 3

benmhall
Member since:
2006-03-08

But am writing this on my iPhone.

I’m a sysadmin at a university. I also co-own a business doing web development and custom coding, turnkey systems, etc.

I’ve also been using the iPad betas on a 9.7” iPad Pro, trying to like the experience.

I like the iPad. iOS 11 is a big step forward.

But.

iPads are a luxury and, for me, working on them is still a compromise.

I ordered a new ThinkPad today. 15” full HD IPS for less than $600CDN. It has enough RAM, a decent HD, is upgradable, and even though it’s probably slower than a current iPad, I know that, with Linux and VirtualBox, I can do everything I need to on it.

I want to like the iPad. I want to be unshackled by big, “old” laptops. But. For less than half the price of an iPad I know I can do everything I need to do now and for the next several years on a device with a great keyboard and a great, big screen.

Two years from now, I can upgrade it and use it for another 5 years.

I look forward to the future of computing, but we live in the present of computing.

I’m travelling today for work. I forgot to pack my iPad but remembered to pack my 2011 11” MacBook Air. I feel a bit foolish, but really, I know I can do what I need with the MadBook, not so with the iPad.

At least for me, none of Apple’s current lineup, except for the iPhone, seem that compelling. Tablets and USB C will be great at some point. In the meantime, my wallet votes for USB A, and boring old keyboard and mouse that gets the job done.

Maybe sad to say, I need X11, x2go, many types of VPNs, and a great command line. None of this is as good on an iPad. Yet.

Edited 2017-09-22 01:02 UTC

Reply Score: 3

yerverluvinunclebert Member since:
2014-05-03

iPads are a luxury and, for me, working on them is still a compromise.


I think that is worth quoting as that is the position for most of us.

Reply Score: 1