Linked by David Adams on Wed 6th Apr 2005 20:21 UTC
In the News This month's Wired magazine has a terriffic story about a team of students from a high school in an economically depressed part of Phoenix, who took part in an underwater-robot building competition against students from the top universities in the country -- and won. All of the students are undocumented Mexican immigrants who don't qualify for most financial aid or even in-state tuition, and therefore can't afford to attend college, in the US, Mexico, or anywhere. When I read the article I determined to try to do something to help give these kids their chance, and I was delighted to discover that their faculty advisor has set up a scholarship fund for them, and I'm about to donate some money to help. I'd like to encourage OSNews readers to read the story, and if they feel the same way, to donate.
Order by: Score:
My taxes help them
by H on Wed 6th Apr 2005 20:40 UTC

"undocumented"

That about says it!

Take out a loan
by Michael on Wed 6th Apr 2005 20:40 UTC

Um... I took out several loans to pay for my college... Why can't they?

Uh
by Smartpatrol on Wed 6th Apr 2005 20:41 UTC

Hello! undocumented Mexican immigrants = criminals! they either need to apply for green cards legally or be deported post haste.

Re: Smartpatrol
by Kenny Martens on Wed 6th Apr 2005 20:45 UTC

Hello! undocumented Mexican immigrants = criminals! they either need to apply for green cards legally or be deported post haste.

These kids are hardworking geniuses. They're the kind of immigrant every nation should welcome. If they are in the country illegally they should be deported (we gotta respect the law) but then should immediately be issued student visas and brought back into the country the same day. I see potential here that shouldn't be wasted.

@Michael
by Rayiner Hashem on Wed 6th Apr 2005 20:46 UTC

Yes, because loans are so accessible to undocumented mexican immigrants.

undocumented
by David Adams on Wed 6th Apr 2005 20:47 UTC

Your taxes subsidize students who get in-state tuition and pell grants, which is one of the reasons why these guys don't qualify. I'm not saying that their parents were right to bing them across the border illegally, but here they are, and they have the chance to become productive, tax-paying members of society instead of existing in a black market economy and providing little benefit.

And you could qualify for a student loan only because of special government-backed exception to the regular rules that state that you need to be employed and have a good credit history to borrow money. These guys don't qualify for student loans either, though the restrictions placed on them by this scholarship fund are going to be pretty stringent.

Who cares?
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 20:48 UTC

I am a white male that grew up in a poor family, I didn't see any of you jumping at the chance to pay for my school for me.

Follow the law
by Chanman on Wed 6th Apr 2005 20:51 UTC

Get documented and get help via the normal channels. Get legal.

I wonder how many people have done great things but didn't get a story written about them because they haven't broken the law and don't wind up with donations pouring in?

Anonymous (IP: 24.48.38.---) -
by helf on Wed 6th Apr 2005 20:52 UTC

Were you exceptionally bright kid that made the news? I doubt it.. ;)

re: Who cares?
by modman on Wed 6th Apr 2005 20:52 UTC

did you build an underwater robot in HS that beat engineering students from top universities?

no?

well, that is why you get nothing.

This pisses me off!!!
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 20:52 UTC

I am an American citizen putting all of my time and effort into being with my wife who is a candian citizen. We are trying to finish up with Canadian Immgration for me, so that we can be together, so I have no compassion for people who don't abide by the law. If I have to, then they have to! Plain and simple!!! They should either apply for a green card or get out of the US!!!!

Yeah
by Smartpatrol on Wed 6th Apr 2005 20:53 UTC

Your taxes subsidize students who get in-state tuition and pell grants, which is one of the reasons why these guys don't qualify.

It the privilege of being a citizen of any country to participate in government funded programs. These things are not free!

I'm not saying that their parents were right to bing them across the border illegally, but here they are, and they have the chance to become productive, tax-paying members of society instead of existing in a black market economy and providing little benefit.

Um they should not be here in the first place! Robot smart or not. Again if they want to follow the rules when in comes to immigrating to this country so be it they are no different then the thousands of others.

@Kenny Martens
by David Adams on Wed 6th Apr 2005 20:54 UTC

I was thinking the same thing, with the student visa thing. One of the great tragedies of the US' post 9/11 paranoia is that the best and the brightest students from other lands are finding it much harder to come study in American universities. Allowing foreign students to come study here has been an immesurable boon to US industry and academia. Sure, we shouldn't necessarily encourage or reward flouting immigration law, but the country always has and always will have an incentive to encourage the great minds of the world to study and even stay here.

But even taking national interest out of the picture, I'd just like to see these kids have the chance to benefit society to the full extent, even if it were by giving them the means to attend one of the excellent Mexican or other Latin American universities.

Hmm...
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:00 UTC

Sheeyit. If they're so smart they'll find a way to succeed. Who ever heard of a smart guy that was poor except by choice?

Great story...
by Mike on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:01 UTC

...I thought it was inspirational - maybe someone will make a movie about it someday (or at least a documentary.)

Good luck to them getting into college, and shame about all the bitter naysayers here who refuse to recognise talent and potential, and who oblivious to the huge part immigrants - legal and illegal - play in the U.S. economy.

But I guess they'd rather immigrants work at Taco Bell and Nabraskan slaughterhouses so they don't have to.

Sad....
by Mike on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:03 UTC

Wow...

That's pretty arrogant; I'm kind of surprised to read comments like this on such a community/OSS/future-oriented website.

Most citizens' families (sans the few Native Americans) immigrated to America at some point of their family history.
They were fortunate to be "allowed into the country" so easily by comparison (and despite any hardships during their commute). Going by the books, these mexican teens would likely be on a waiting list for 15-20 years before their number was called for review. Mexicans who submitted applications in the mid 1980s are just being reviewed right now.

I'm a firm believer of following the rule of law, but there is a clear need for change. You can hardly expect a person to put their life on hold for two decades...especially a critical period like 18-40 where education and careers emerge. The whole immigration process needs to be moderinized and revamped, IMHO. It's not these kid's fault they're in the situation they're in; they shouldn't be punished for it.

On a side note, i find it interesting how this country rewards academia. So many research articles have been published that highlight statistical deficiencies in our population's mathematic aptitude... You would think a promising demonstration like these guys put forth might be rewarded in America. Evidently not.

Don't deport - shoot them on sight
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:05 UTC

> Hello! undocumented Mexican immigrants = criminals!
> they either need to apply for green cards legally
> or be deported post haste.

Right, after all this is what separates humans from animals - we set up borders and drive away those who cross them. Wait, animals do that too. Never mind then.

Although our law doesn't allow to discriminate against blacks anymore, thanks God it still allows to discriminate against non-residents. After all when constitution says "all men are created equal" surely it doesn't actually mean ALL?

Anti-immigrant sentiment
by David Adams on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:07 UTC

I'd like to pose a question to those who have expressed some rather callous anti-immigrant sentiment. If these had been kids from a Juarez, Mexico, high school who had won the same competition, and were in the same situation, and wanted to attend college, would you feel differently? Would you feel that they had no right to accept a private scholarship to attend a US (or Mexican) university.

Frankly, the fact that these kids are illegal immigrants is mostly irrelevant. It's like original sin. They did receive the opportunity to be discovered, and to participate in this contest, which they wouldn't have had otherwise, but now that they have been identified for their capabilities, they should be shoved back down because of a crime that their parents committed?

I also believe that open borders are in the US national interest, but the truth is that the economy needs a certain number of immigrants to do the work that natural-born citizens won't do. There's a trick balancing act, that we're not doing very well, but spouting off anti-immigrant platitudes isn't going to help any more than the anti-Irish, anti-Italian, anti-Polish sentiments that were widespread in past eras did. Let's focus on finding real solutions, rather than encouraging illegal immigration with one hand and decrying it with the other, which is the current US policy.

Heard the latest?
by DFergATL on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:08 UTC

There have been stories on Yahoo.com and Cnn.com. The US is now going to require VESA for anyone coming into the US from Mexico or Canada. Not a drivers license a Vesa. Even if you are an American Citizen. If you are going to go to Canada or Mexico you will soon have to have a Vesa to do it.

I second the other Mike
by Mike on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:09 UTC

Gosh, two Mikes in a row with the same sentiments. Great names think alike...

So let me see if I get this right... they're undocumented Mexican nationals residing in Arizona and are leeching off of my federal tax dollars and the state tax dollars of Arizona residents to get a free education. And now we're supposed to feel sorry for them and get them scholarships? To where, US schools that they can't attend without a visa anyway? Contrary to popular belief, Mexico *does* have technical education facilities. In fact, I work with quite a few Mexican nationals in Mexico who work for my boss's company full time and go to school part time. They get Bachelor's degrees in 4 years and the large majority of their education is free. Personally, I commend them for the technical abilities, but rather than give them scholarship monies, we should deport their asses back to Mexico. Being the land of the free and brave *should* have its boundaries... pun intended.

Andrew Davis http://palm.nccomp.com

v Wow
by Matt on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:10 UTC
not finished
by DFergATL on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:11 UTC

I don't mean for living either. If you go to Mexico for the day or the week and are an American. You will soon have to have a Vesa to get back in. Who wants to take bets that before long all Americans will be required to carry "papers" on them at all times.

I'll take that bet
by Ronin on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:16 UTC

"Who wants to take bets that before long all Americans will be required to carry "papers" on them at all times."

Not gonna happen.

It's visa!!!
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:17 UTC

.

v RE:Heard the latest?
by yanik on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:18 UTC
Taxes
by David Adams on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:18 UTC

I think some of you guys are probably way off on the tax issue. It's my understanding that, as a whole, undocumented immigrants pay at least their fair share of taxes. They are able to take part in some benefit from taxes, such as subsidized public transportation. schools for their children, help from charities that receive state grants, but there are many tax-funded benefits that they do not get: social security, medicare, scholarhips and grants, business loans, etc. And though many of them work for cash, they are at an income level that would more likely qualify them for Earned income tax credits (that they don't get) rather than as income tax payers. But they pay sales taxes, pay local government fees, and in may cases pay payroll tax, including social security, that they aren't qualified to receive the benefit of.

So you can argue that they're stealing job opportunity from the lowest quartile of native population, which is certainly somewhat true, but the tax issue is a red herring.

Here are some results from Florida, a state with a big illegal immigrant "problem:"
http://www.ailf.org/ipc/policy_reports_2002_pay.asp

RE: Anti-immigrant sentiment
by A. Davis on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:18 UTC

No, I wouldn't mind if they did this in Mexico. Its the fact that their getting special treatment while also being unconvicted felons that bothers me (yes, illegally entering the US is a felony). If these guys were students in Mexico, obeying Mexican laws and entered into a competition that brought them temporarily into the US, then went back to Mexico, that would be fine with me. Get 'em some scholarship money and if they can get a visa, they can go to school in the US (or any other non-third world country for that matter). And if they can't get a visa, they use their money to go to school in Mexico. I have no issue with their technical skills or their desire to go to school, nor anyone's desire to help them. But the fact is, thus far, they owe their technical abilities to the US provided education they received at the expense of all our federal tax dollars and Arizona residents' state tax dollars. This is money they've used illegally, so technically their felonous illegal immigrants AND thieves. If they were such good people, they'd take their scholarship monies and pay back the US and Arizona for the monies they've leeched from us for their illegal education. At this point, let 'em be smart, but let 'em do so back in Mexico.

America the Beautiful
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:20 UTC

I have to say that its great that there are so many protectors of america here, trying to make sure that it remains pure and unsoiled. I am happy that there are others who have realized that we are more human and more deserving than those born too far south of our borders. After all, I would rather see these criminals (after all undocumented==criminal) rot as opposed to see them turn into so called productive members of society while I pay for it with my pure american money.

Sarcasm aside, I find the overall sentiment of these posts disgusting. Read your history books and realize that this is a country of immigrants.

I think its funny how these criminal that come here to study robotics and ruin our society are held to a different standard than those that came from England, Spain, The Netherlands etc.. seeking a better life, after all they probably didn't have documents either, just better weapons.

@Anonymous
by Rayiner Hashem on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:21 UTC

Who ever heard of a smart guy that was poor except by choice?

Ever really talk to a cab driver? Some of the ones I've talked to were professionals (engineers, that sort of thing) in their home country. They immigrated to the US, but couldn't get a job in the US because they didn't have an American or European degree. They couldn't get an American degree, because it costs money to attend school, and recent immigrants usually have a hard time getting loans and don't qualify for many grants.

v Send them back!
by Jack on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:22 UTC
Re: Taxes
by A. Davis on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:22 UTC

Bullshit! Undocumented don't pay taxes cause they're undocumented and largely paid under the table. For that matter, the majority of them take their hard earned money and send it back to their families in Mexico to give them a better life. If every US citizen took all his extra money and sent it out to another country, the US would go bankrupt. They get paid under the table, pay no taxes, shack up 10 people in a 2 bedroom apartment, then try to get education and health services for free. They leech off of state and federal tax dollars, then when they do get money, they send it home instead of re-investing it back into the economy. Its bullshit!

@By Mike (IP: ---.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk)
by Smartpatrol on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:26 UTC

Excuse me do you live in the US? specifically near the Mexican border? No? then kindly shutup becasue you have no idea what you are talking about. We know how Europe treats its immigrants.

@Adam

Frankly, the fact that these kids are illegal immigrants is mostly irrelevant. It's like original sin. They did receive the opportunity to be discovered, and to participate in this contest, which they wouldn't have had otherwise, but now that they have been identified for their capabilities, they should be shoved back down because of a crime that their parents committed?

The problem in my mind has been the de-criminalzation of illegal immigration over the years. It is against the law(read; CRIME) to enter this country without proper authorization. The immigration issue is not irrelevant you just happen to be blinded by their acheivements, which i admit are very impressive. Let me ask you a question should Terry Nichols(Oklahoma city bomber) be forgiven his transgressions if for example he came up with the cure for cancer? Hell no!

If these had been kids from a Juarez, Mexico, high school who had won the same competition, and were in the same situation, and wanted to attend college, would you feel differently? Would you feel that they had no right to accept a private scholarship to attend a US (or Mexican) university.

Apples and oranges questions but here it goes..chances are they would follow the proper procedures to obtain a student visa or whatever legal means to enter this country.

I am against all illegal immigration Mexico, Canada, Japan, England or what have you.

"undocumented" mexicans coming to a town near you soon.
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:29 UTC

If a bunch of crooks busted out of jail and did it in a creative or "intelligent" way that made people think they were smart, should we forget they are crooks?

The huge influx of mexicans is trashing Arizona. I don't know about other places.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0407/p01s02-ussc.html

sure they work jobs we don't want to; they also come over to have their children here, traffic drugs here, etc. a real BOOST to our economy...

@Kenney
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:31 UTC

>> These kids are hardworking geniuses.

So you get to break the law if you are smart?

v how about...
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:32 UTC
@David Adams
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:33 UTC

>> I'm not saying that their parents were right to bing them across the border illegally, but here they are,

they are **well within** the statute of limitations for deportation.

sorry, but smart, dumb, black, white...justice is supposed to be blind. they are here in violation of the law.

Geniuses break laws too
by Bob on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:34 UTC

We have laws. You don't have to be a genius to follow them. Only a criminal to break them.

Only in America
by ed on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:34 UTC

would you find people who want these kids to take a hike because they have not crossed the t's and dotted the eyes. Actually, our country (Canada) is much the same, and it's pathetic. Only a few short years ago millions of Immagrants streamed into the "new world" to make a bteer life from nothing but hard work and tears. So quickly we forget the efforts of our own ancestor's. My great,great grandparents fled to America to escape the persicution happening in Germany and Russia, around the 1860's. By the time my grandfather was 15 he and his 17 year old brother left America to come to Canada to farm along the Canadian Railway line. Land was GIVEN to them, so long as they agreed to work it. They were treated for the first twenty years or so in much the same way some of the readers treat these kids, with great animosity. They stayed anyways, payed thier taxes, and now some 500 to 1000 of us direct descendants of these two brave "kids" are all paying taxes. Since niether of them could read or right, they couldn't even sign papers, let alone build robots. All I'm saying is, given half a chance , your country could REALLY benifit from these guys. Hey , if you don't want them, send them our way, as we are suffering from a severe brain drain up here(seems the almighty dollar is causing our university students to run south at record speed). I believe most of the underdeveloped countries in the world have alot to offer the West, and if they can stand the cold, they are welcome here.

Panodra's box
by Thom Holwerda on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:34 UTC

David Adams, you just opened a Pandora's box here on OSNews...

Good thing that you did this.

Too bad so many white Americans are too shallow and too egocentric to concern themselves for problems that don't affect their white suburbs and SUVs.

David, you need to move to a place where people really care about eachother-- like the Netherlands, Canada, or the Scandinavian countries or something.

The US doesn't own it's own land!
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:35 UTC

How can you call anyone an illegal immigrant? Our government doesn't even have a legitimate claim to it's own land! It got it by killing and subjugating people. And "purchasing" it from other nations that got it by... killing and subjugating people.

@David Adams II
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:36 UTC

>> I was thinking the same thing, with the student visa thing. One of the great tragedies of the US' post 9/11 paranoia is that the best and the brightest students from other lands are finding it much harder to come study in American universities.


yes, but those students are required to obtain educational visas to come to our colleges, that is a completely different issue.

good god i hope you people stay out of politics, talk about ARBITRARY judgements....

cool
by tobaccofarm on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:36 UTC

There must be something wrong with MIT if they loose from a bunch of highshool kids.Or all MIT students have more money than brains.Either way it's remarkable.

These kids probably have more brains than is good for them :-)
So rednecks at ease,they aren't made for your dull 9 to 5 jobs.Kids with such a talent should be protected and stimulated.America should be glad to have such bright citizens.

@ Mike
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:38 UTC

>> Going by the books, these mexican teens would likely be on a waiting list for 15-20 years before their number was called for review.


YES and that list is so long because we are saturated with people who will not stand in line like the law requires.

i would think this would be common sense to a high school graduate...are you one?

the line of legal immigrants would get shorter if the INS could spend more time processing it instead of trying to track illegals.

RE
by luzerlinux on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:38 UTC

""did you build an underwater robot in HS that beat engineering students from top universities?

no?

well, that is why you get nothing.""

Well, no robots here, BUT I am & have been working, in high school, on NASA funded research in the Aeroscience field... and I'm not getting any help with my college tuition... where is my fund?(me, the legal resident of America.)

Whatever
by Smartpatrol on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:39 UTC

I think some of you guys are probably way off on the tax issue. It's my understanding that, as a whole, undocumented immigrants pay at least their fair share of taxes.

Um let me ask you a few questions...Can you work in this country without a SSN?
Answer: No

Do illegal immigrants have SSN's?
Answer: No

Socail security taxes,federal and state income taxes come out of your paycheck based on your having a SSN. So that leaves what State and federal sales taxes? that an illegal Alien could be paying assuming he is working in this country illegally..buying gas etc. Lets see i pay it all Federal,state,Social Security income and sales tax compaired ot an illegal immigrant who pays sales tax only. Tell me again how is that their fair share?

@David Adams III
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:39 UTC

>> It's my understanding that, as a whole, undocumented immigrants pay at least their fair share of taxes.

your understanding is INCORRECT

do they pay vehicle licensing fees? NOPE, they aren't licensed

do they pay income taxes? NOPE they are paid in cash because banks basically won't give them accounts (some are starting) because they are illegal without SSNs

do they pay FICA, SS, etc, NOPE - see above

GET A CLUE PEOPLE

Yeah right
by Ronin on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:40 UTC

"David, you need to move to a place where people really care about eachother-- like the Netherlands, Canada, or the Scandinavian countries or something."

Yeah, those people in the Netherlands are so caring about each other.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2109523/

v communism
by Andew Z. on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:40 UTC
We all need free education
by XDelusion on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:41 UTC

That's what's messed in this country, we are supposed to be so much better off than the rest of the world, yet the rest of the (poorer) world actually has the right to a Free Education, as well as Free Health Care (look at Australia for a good model), yet here we are FORCED to pay for EVERYTHING, or we can get Loans and spend the rest of our lives paying that crap off.

As for these Mexican kids, that is awsome! Everyone up here seems so predudiced against anyone from a "third world" country, as if they have no intellect or reason, so here these guys come to show them up! ;)

P.S. I'm a honkey.

v @tobaccofarm
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:42 UTC
@Smartpatrol
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:42 UTC

Actually illegal aliens with no SSN's still have Social Security taxes deducted from their pay and placed into the general account, because their employers can't easily hide it. It's like paying taxes on druge money or something... damned if you do, damned if you don't. Except that the Feds LOVE employers who hire illegals and pay SS, because those illegals can never qualify for benefits from it. So yes, they are paying their fair share: they are paying into SS and will never see a dime of it. Wait... that sounds rather like my position.

numerus fixus
by tobaccofarm on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:43 UTC

Universities should select more on skill,talent and motivation than daddies check-book.

The Problem With Illegal Immigration
by slash on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:43 UTC

This is the problem with illegal immigration. The world wants to come into the United States. The US can not ever support that. Thus natural limits have been set to decide who can come here and who can't. People who come here are basically flipping the middle finger at everyone who wants to come here and everyone who is here (Citizens, immigrants, whatever.) They deserve nothing but a nice boot in the butt and an express ride back home.
This is the other problem I have with illegal immigration. As a tax payer, I basically put a lot of companies on public wellfare. Because rather than they paying their employees proper wages, they hire illegal immigrants, pay them crap, and my tax dollars (rather than company money) goes into paying all the support costs for the illegals.
And here is another problem with illegal immigration, they drive the quality of education and health care down. Have you been to a hospital for an emergency recently. If you haven't, let me tell you this, a) because emergency support is free, illegal immigrants all go there making it impossible for the hospital to actually help real emergencies and b) because hospitals are forced to help illegals and there is no way for hospitals to recover money used on illegals, a lot of hospitals also fold over, making hospitals even more crowded.
As you can see, there is no justification for illegal immigration. It just messes everyone up and the only people who win are the companies that hire illegal immigrants. The illegal immigrants get screwed, residents get screwed. I understand everyone wants to come into the United States, but everyone also wants to be a billionaire.

v Why?
by Bud on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:44 UTC
I don't see it
by Ronin on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:44 UTC

"Everyone up here seems so predudiced against anyone from a "third world" country, as if they have no intellect or reason, so here these guys come to show them up!"

Hmmm... From what I've read people are upset because they are breaking the law, not because of where they are from.

@XDelusion
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:44 UTC

>> That's what's messed in this country, we are supposed to be so much better off than the rest of the world, yet the rest of the (poorer) world actually has the right to a Free Education


education is not "free" in any nation on this planet.

people pay for school with taxes

PUBLIC education does not mean FREE education

in fact quite the opposite, it is a social contract to pool resources and apply societal standards to education.

oh my god you people don't vote do you?

@Smartpatrol
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:44 UTC

Also, illegal workers are making little enough that they would owe no income taxes even if they filed. And they pay sales tax at the register (pump, etc.) just like the rest of us. So they are likely paying for MORE than their fair share.

rewarding evil with good
by Andrew Z. on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:45 UTC

Let's not reward law breaking with free money---or anything. What does that say? What laws can I break and be rewarded for?

If I steal, should I be given free food?

If I break into FBI computers, should they give me a job?

I don't qualify for any financial assistance with college. Maybe I should leave the country, give up my citizenship, and then sneak back across the border. Then I can finish my BS in less than 8 years.

slash
by slash on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:45 UTC

People who come here should be People who come here illegally

I think it's time…
by Manik on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:46 UTC

… to get those words out of the statue of Liberty. You know…let the poor, …

The Law
by David Adams on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:46 UTC

Okay, all of you people who seem so caught up in obeying the law: It's touching that you have such an adherence to the current law. How many of you pay use taxes to your state on all the items you buy online from other states? How many of you signal with every lane change and obey the speed limit? Do you have any mp3s on your computer that you didn't pay for? Let's not even get started on whether you do everything that you were taught in church as a child.

We obey two kinds of laws: the ones that we have deeply internalized (murder), and the ones that we have determined that the likelihood of being caught and the penalties for are high enough to prevent it. Most other laws are treated more cavalierly, by just about everyone. There's nothing sacred about most of them, and many people will flout laws that they feel are unjust as a form of protest. In the American South it used to be illegal for some people to drink at certain water fountains. Most people now consider the people who violated those laws to be real heroes.

So let's continue to discuss the moral aspects of illegal immigration, because it's a truly thorny issue with many vaild points of view. But saying "it's illegal" does not close the book by any stretch of the imagination. Be honest with yourself.

RE: We all need free education
by Wrawrat on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:47 UTC

Well, I hope you are ready to spend 70% of your salary in miscellaneous taxes/income... Free education/health care isn't exactly free.

v confuse
by ed on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:47 UTC
@Justpoopingmypantsagain
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:48 UTC

"it is a social contract..."

I'm a legal citizen, but deny that I am party to any social contract. Taxation for education is theft, no matter what size of majority is in favor of it. I don't have any more responsibility to send your kid to school than I do to buy you a new sports car every year.

oh yeah..
by luzerlinux on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:48 UTC

did I mention that I am in fact white, but i grew up in a trashy trailor park, right alongside all of the "unfortunate" mexicans who everyone seams to love, while ignoring the poor citizens... it isnt that theyre poor, and unfortunate that makes you want to help them, its some twisted sense of guilt you have because their people have been mis-treated in the past...

@David Adams IV
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:48 UTC

>> Okay, all of you people who seem so caught up in obeying the law: It's touching that you have such an adherence to the current law. How many of you pay use taxes to your state on all the items you buy online from other states? How many of you signal with every lane change and obey the speed limit?

non-sequiter...straw man...all you need is a false appeal to authority to complete the major logical fallacies

@Anonymous
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:50 UTC

>> I'm a legal citizen, but deny that I am party to any social contract.


until you get to opt out of funding public schools, I can assure you that you are

not to say this is impossible...thats the entire point of educational vouchers.

@David Adams V
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:51 UTC

>> We obey two kinds of laws: the ones that we have deeply internalized (murder), and the ones that we have determined that the likelihood of being caught

no, that is your rationalization. do not confuse it with legal canon, common law, tort law, judge judy or the people's court.

i recommend you back off this topic, you are going from thin ice to thinner ice with each post

@Justpoopingmypantsagain
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:52 UTC

"non-sequiter...straw man...all you need is a false appeal to authority to complete the major logical fallacies"

non-sequiter: He's not saying that hypocrisy means that no one needs to obey the law, he's just saying your hypocrites, and that you are arguing as if you were not. I.e., you are giving reasons that you do not, yourselves, base your own actions upon.

straw man: Where... I don't see one of those. All of the things he listed are illegal. Heck, in WA it's a misdemeanor to exceed the speed limit by 1mph.

jeez...
by JP on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:53 UTC

just curious...
how many of you actually earned ur us citizenship (or did any work towards getting it)?
and how many of u just had the dumb f*cking luck of being born on US soil like myself?

be greateful for what u have cuz you probably didn't earn your opportunities and chances. so why keep others from the chance of earning theirs?

the law?! hahaha... i guess.
if they're felons and thieves, let them pay back the debt.
and why not let them enjoy the payback?

@Justpoopingmypantsagain
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:54 UTC

"until you get to opt out of funding public schools, I can assure you that you are"

No, I'm a victim of organized crime.

@Anonymous
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:54 UTC

>> Also, illegal workers are making little enough that they would owe no income taxes even if they filed

ugh. no, because if they were legal there would be far far far fewer of them and the aggregate decrease in expenditures (education, medical), would FAR offset the tax credits we would be mailing them

Thom Holwerda (IP: ---.cable.quicknet.nl)
by Bud on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:57 UTC

David, you need to move to a place where people really care about eachother-- like the Netherlands, Canada, or the Scandinavian countries or something.
Canada, I wholeheartedly agree!!!
I'd say first you should look in the Netherlands what Verdonk is doing and then,only then,give lessons to American people. Immigrants (legal ones) in Netherlands are no different,or worse,treated than in US of A. Stop giving lessons. At least US have immigration programs,same for Canada, Australia, New Zealand. The only country in Europe where integration succeded somehow is France. The rest, well , that's another story.
BTW,I'm Canadian by adoption and living for the moment in The Netherlands for a better paycheck ( about 4 years ) so I know what I am talking. And well, I strongly do not reccomend colored people to even consider living in Scandinavian countries.Also,been there working and again I know what I am talking about. Get used with it everybody, that's the world we all living in.

I am impressed
by dukeinlondon on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:57 UTC

Although I understand people wanting things to stay legal and arguing that they are other ways to reach ones goals, the sheer stupidity of calling these kids criminals and such is sickening. I am even surprised this aspect of things would even come up.

@Justpoopingmypantsagain
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:57 UTC

"no, that is your rationalization"

News flash man, people are MORALLY AUTONOMOUS. That means that for better or worse, we all have to judge right and wrong for ourselves. Where the law falls outside my interpretation of right and wrong, it just becomes a bunch of people who really want me to act a certain way. At which point the question becomes, "what are you gonna do to me if I do it anyway?"

@Mike
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:58 UTC

>> But I guess they'd rather immigrants work at Taco Bell and Nabraskan slaughterhouses so they don't have to.

another fallacy

working in these types of jobs never used to be so bad before when, for example, workers had protections.

but you don't have to protect an illegal because they have no status and they know it, they don't complain.

this is why profits in big agri and food industries have gone through the roof - labor costs are run down to the ground. exec pay in these industries has gone through the ceiling...more of each dollar now goes to execs than line workers. this is why big agri is begging GWB to keep border patrols lax, and they are showing their appreciation with political donations.

this is labor economics 101.

@Justpoopingmypantsagain (IP: ---.corp.yahoo.com)
by tobaccofarm on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:58 UTC

once again, you are telling me that breaking the law is fine for smart kids?

I would rather see them making robots than firing guns.


do you know why the statue of lady justice has her wearing a blindfold??

Yes, it's a part of hear no evil,see no evil and speak no evil.

never thought about this...for even a second between dancedancerevolution and desperate housewives????

What? Giving opportunity to promising kids is breaking the law?Than i would break it with pleasure when still more people are judged upon their money and influence instead of their intellectual capabilities.



take a civics class with the rest of the posters here.

Nah boring stuff.Rather make robots.By the way you know the saying:An engineer who goes back 100 years in time and chances are he can teach his collegue back than a few things.A psychologist who travels back in time can only argue with his colleque.

@ Smartpatrol
by Mike on Wed 6th Apr 2005 21:59 UTC

No, I don't live in the U.S. - I live in the U.K., another country with a relatively high rate of illegal immigration. But I'm not too blind too acknowledge that immigration plays a huge part in the US & UK economies (and, as David Adams has pointed out, the policians know this, and know the economy would be seriously harmed if illegal immigration were curbed (hence Bush's proposal for an amnesty last year.)

Secondly, you're deluding yourself if you think illegal immigration can ever be totally curbed, short of conscipting a vast army of border patrollers. Practical solutions in politics acknowledge what is possible, that grey areas exist, and try to make the best of real or perceived problems. This should include embracing and nurturing talent, whether it comes from a rich, poor, black, white, asian or hispanic kids, including those whose parents dragged them across the border years ago.

Also, I'm not oblivious to the fact that dense concentrations of immigrant populations can cause problems (RE: your comment about "near the Mexican border"), but I don't see why that should make people object more to those that not only *don't* cause problems, but who promise to make a real contribution.

(And I honestly don't see what your supposed analogy to Terry Nichols has to do with anything.)

@ Justpoopingmypantsagain
by Mike on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:01 UTC

I don't see how what I said was a fallacy. I totally agree with you. Where's the contradiction?

@Anonymous
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:01 UTC

>> News flash man, people are MORALLY AUTONOMOUS. That means that for better or worse, we all have to judge right and wrong for ourselves.

do you live alone on a desert island?

so you are telling me that if you decide murder and theft are "correct" than society shall observe your decision??

News flash man! you may feel morally autonomous but i can assure you that you are bound by the law and the power that enforces it (meaning large men drag you away to a small room for many decades if you decide to push your own model in a disagreeable fashion).

your approach works on marlon brando's tahitian atol, not in the USA.

@Mike
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:05 UTC

>> and, as David Adams has pointed out, the policians know this, and know the economy would be seriously harmed if illegal immigration were curbed (hence Bush's proposal for an amnesty last year.

you know nothing of US politics.

big agri (chicken farms, slaughterhouses, etc) and the retail and food services industries have been lining GWBs pockets and everyone else at the federal level to keep their flow of cheap abusable labor open. this has helped these industries lower wages and ERASE worker protections. do you know these people are routinely maimed on these jobs (slaughterhouses) and have no recourse? they used to when people could take the employer to court. NOT ANYMORE! who are you helping anyway???

did you know the state of texas sued the feds for not dilligently patrolling the border with mexico in texas? gee i guess not everyone is on your scoresheet.

illegal immigration
by Altair on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:05 UTC

Being against illegal immigration is in no way racist or looking down on people from third world countries. I have no problems with people that come here through legal means. The people that come here illegally however are messing up the system that is in place. These kids need to apply for a visa or student visa or get out of the US.

Think more with your head instead of your heart.

why pay?
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:06 UTC

Many top schools guarantee that all admitted students will receive sufficient financial aid. A few, such as Princeton, provide grants so that you don't have to take any loans in the process. Why don't these students apply to one of them?

priveledge by birth
by enymoos on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:06 UTC

Complaints against illegal immigrants I'd take seriously if everyone had to earn the right to become a citizen and couldn't jsut be born to it. Why shouldn't other get what you got freely? This reeks of that whole "Divine Manifest Destiny" crap.

Fact is without cheap mexican labour many americans would have the all goods and SOL that they have: remember captilism works by exploiting the poorest.

@Mike
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:07 UTC

>> Secondly, you're deluding yourself if you think illegal immigration can ever be totally curbed, short of conscipting a vast army of border patrollers.

no one is claiming it will be shut off

we'd just like it to get down from the estimated 10,000 or so PER DAY.

yes i said 10,000 PER DAY

the states are taking matters into their own hands thankfully, and are cracking down on what illegals can do once inside, because god knows the Federal govt has absolutely NO INTENTION of even thinking of addressing the issue, because then the food service industry would not donate big $$$ to the republican national cmmtte

@enymoos
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:09 UTC

>> Complaints against illegal immigrants I'd take seriously if everyone had to earn the right to become a citizen and couldn't jsut be born to it.

you're right, they should enlist my 11 month old son in to the army and make him do some pushups first

your proposal makes no sense, are you saying newborns would have no citizenship in any country?

so instead of a few million illegal immigrants, we would have a few billion...everyone would be illegal until they could perform some rite of passage?

v What Universities were in the contests....
by Chris on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:10 UTC
@Justpoopingmypantsagain
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:10 UTC

Hah hah. Dude, moral autonomy is an internal issue, not an external one. Might doesn't make right. Just because something is illegal does not mean it is wrong, and just because something is legal does not mean it is right.

You want to equate "morally wrong" with "illegal", because what is legal is very clear-cut and you can win any moral argument in which you find yourself on the side of the law. But all you can do if people disagree with you is attack their body. You don't *become* right just because you succeed in throwing them in prison.

My point is that, with regard to morality, we are all on the atol you mention. There is no getting off it. Physically we are in downtown LA. But morally we are always on the atol.

@ Justpoopingmypantsagain
by Mike on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:12 UTC

I think you've gotten the wrong end of the stick here. The issues you're referring to about the horrific conditions in slaughterhouses I acknowledge completely, and I totally agree with how completely the Republicans are in the pocket of agribusiness, but that's a labor and human rights issue rather than an immigration one per se. Sure it concerns immigration, but it should be dealt with by regulation of agribusiness, not by trying to stamp out illegal immigration.

Ok i take it back
by Chris on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:12 UTC

Their robot sounds quite cool.

@Anonymous
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:13 UTC

>> Hah hah. Dude, moral autonomy is an internal issue, not an external one. Might doesn't make right.

no, but Might does make Might. when the police drag you away and the judge puts you in the cell you will have the comfort of knowing you followed your bliss.

RE: The Law
by Wrawrat on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:14 UTC

I see from where you are coming but there still is a problem: it's not about equality, it's about a felony. Lax your rules for those kids and even more immigrants will try to enter illegally. These immigrants will use this story for justifying their action ("Hey, I'm also a genius!").

They should get back in Mexico and help their country. After all, they could find a use for their brains. Talented people shouldn't aggregate exclusively in the US...

As for how they managed to beat MIT students... Well, I must say that I didn't read the article but I guess they had more time to spare. They don't have calculus or physics homeworks/exams. As an aspiring engineer, these things drain my spare time. I am not trying to belittle what they have done but I guess they took a more pragmatical way to do their robots that what we are used to... ;)

Re: @enymoos
by enymoos on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:14 UTC

Landed immigrant status perhaps or something similar. In ancient Greece you didn't have to be a citizen to live in a city. Citizens got additional rights, but you didn't need them to live in the city.

As for rite of passage how about a certificate of completing history, civics, politics, and economics courses so that citizens have reached a certain age and proven they the ability to use their most important right (i.e. voting) in an educated manner.

v stoo~pid
by JP on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:15 UTC
What?
by Smartpatrol on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:16 UTC

ow many of you actually earned ur us citizenship (or did any work towards getting it)?
and how many of u just had the dumb f*cking luck of being born on US soil like myself?


Earned? never said anyone has to earn the right tolive here just follow established law. I personally have served in the US armed forces does that count?



Agreed.
by Chris on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:18 UTC

Law exists for a reason. Being smart doesn't give you a right to skip just laws. We can't just have everyone living here, here would quickly grow less attractive ;) .

@ Mike
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:19 UTC

>> Sure it concerns immigration, but it should be dealt with by regulation of agribusiness, not by trying to stamp out illegal immigration.

there *is* regulation of agribusiness. employees can complain when safety issues are being violated. they can use the court system and labor baords to address these issues.

BUT they can't and won't do that when they are illegals, even if many of these systems will actually let illegals file complaints!

being illegal means having no leverage, that you can't get around. and no leverage means no wages and protections. i see you point in abstract, but frankly the best way to address this issue (among MANY others) is to curb illegal immigration

also this is the best way to get wages up for the recently immigrated - you can't get a raise when someone outside will do the same job for even less than what you currently make, once again labor economics 101 - we are NOT HELPING these people! we are HURTING them.

undocumented
by sgtarky on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:20 UTC

i am an "undocumented" border patrol officer

I call bull on the economy argument
by cendrizzi on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:20 UTC

I hear this over and over and it's true that having a low paying worker base as part of our economy is valuable but having this flood of illegal immigration is doing more harm than good. The biggest stressors are:

1. Schools
2. Hospitals
3. Governments who keep handing out social benefits that were supposed to be reserved for legal citezens.

I favor immigration but not this mess. It's hurts everyone and certainly exposes a huge hole in our security.

Furthermore the mexican population often gets payed under the table and send it home as opposed putting it back in our economy (no wonder why Mexico does nothing to help).

I really feel for the difficult lives that people in Mexico and other such countries have but that doesn't make this right.

ABOUT THIS SPECIFICALLY:
I'm impressed they were able to do this but I can't help but I feel very conflicted in donating anything (thus won't). I hope that something could be done through a legal course.

@ justpoopingmypants
by Mike on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:23 UTC

Another thing. Immigration laws, like many other laws, have massive grey areas. I'm not suggesting allowing a massive hands-off free-for-all "let's all head to the U.S" excursion for those south of the border. I'm just suggesting that pragmatic solutions are the order of the day rather than black-and-white edicts. That's all.

@enymoos
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:24 UTC

>> Landed immigrant status perhaps or something similar. In ancient Greece you didn't have to be a citizen to live in a city. Citizens got additional rights, but you didn't need them to live in the city.

where are newborns immigrants from??? this makes zero sense.

oh by the way ancient greece had slaves and they routinely waged war on each other over minor disagreements. also there were no social services of any kind that you can envision. you might want to pick a better model.

as to not needing to be a citizen to live in a city...we also have visitors status. it lasts for 90 days and you are granted one any time you get off a plane here by default.

@Mike
by Justpoopingmypantsagain on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:27 UTC

>> Another thing. Immigration laws, like many other laws, have massive grey areas.

yes, the US lets you jump the line if you are a nurse or programmer or were whipped/beaten/abused repeatedly by your former leader.

but all of these people have one thing in common - they lined up at 4am at the INS office to get a piece of paper. some didn't get it. most did.

i don't know why these people cannot get in the same line. the service is free.

RE: What?
by JP on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:27 UTC

Earned? never said anyone has to earn the right tolive here just follow established law. I personally have served in the US armed forces does that count?

Never said it HAD to be earned (OBVIOUSLY it does not). what's your point? oh, u wanted to point out u were in the military...
yes, serving in the military does count (if that doesn't what the hell does?!). so, my post was not directed at you. what r u replying to me for?

RE: The Law
by JJ on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:29 UTC

I read the article and these kids seem to be all below 18. That means they didn't break the immigration law yet and they can do something to legally adjust their status before they turn 18 years old. I think getting a student visa would be hard though because it requires non-immigration intent which they clearly cannot prove. A better way for them would be to complete their undergrad degrees in Mexico and then come to US to do Master or PhD.

Re: Anonymous@gohighspeed
by Lars on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:31 UTC

"it is a social contract..."

I'm a legal citizen, but deny that I am party to any social contract. Taxation for education is theft, no matter what size of majority is in favor of it. I don't have any more responsibility to send your kid to school than I do to buy you a new sports car every year.


Nonsense. You, too, benefit from the education other people's kids receive. And unless you have kids of your own, you should actually pay more taxes to make up for your social freeloading.

Don't want to be part of a social contract? Move to a remote island with absolutely no connection to other human beings whatsoever.

Anger is a gift!
by Jack on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:38 UTC

You guys are angry at the wrong people. Immigrants for the most part are just like you and I, more like I. You should be angry at business owners who hire, exploit, undocumented workers. Being angry at person who is working, harder than most US citizens, to make a buck to get themselves through life is really not cool. Could it be that you guys are white men first, and working men second? Fight for workers rights, not for deportation of undocumented workers. If companies had to pay equal for undocumented workers as they do for documented workers, the job would go to the best man not the cheapest labor.

You guys are equating border crossing, to feed your family, to someone who kills thousands of people. This is just another one of those things where people want to come across as victims, conservatives are good at this.

stupid
by thrift on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:40 UTC

this is the stupidest quickly growing thread ever on osnews. Can't we just disable commenting on this altogether? Let people make up their own minds.

Country Ownership?
by Jose on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:40 UTC

Hey you US citizens, residents or "white people", how you like name you yourself.

Where do you came from, not you, your parents, and the parents of your parents, and so on?

All you in reallity are inmigrants, the diference to new inmigration is that your ancestors was cruel to conquer and now are cruel in a so called home.

The new conquest can't be on the same way it was. Now, the people that work on the hard and unwantend work is filling the US.

Don't cry for it. All things you have are posible thanks to the underground work of too many people. If they really hurt the country ¿Why they find jobs?

You don't want to work From 7:00 to 18:00 planting potatoes.

US is a inmigrants country. That diversity is the reason to do the US grow.

What about pilgrims, inmigrants arriving to america.
What about of cow boys, inmigrants going far to the west.
What about the tea conflict, inmigrants fighting with other inmigrants for a new territory.

Was they illegals?
Did they stolen somebodyelse properties?
Did they take opportunities corresponding to somebody else?
Did they take the resources owned by a previous resident?
The answer is yes, just like now.

It's the same thing, in a different way.

Also, Your skin color in a fair world don't matter for anything, when you will learn it?

This boys deserves an oportunity, in our poors countries somethimes (if not always) the talent is wasted.

I think that somebody here gets hurt and jealousy, because some supposed inferior people can accomplish a great job.

Don't really care what somebody in US think about this. Lately everybody in US will see that outside there are an inmense world.

Go ahead boys.

The person who wrote the law about illegal immigration probably read the book written by Machiavelli. Sometime back when immigration was open to everybody, all you need is a desire to own a piece of land and an expedition party to travel with. Now, immigration is a complicated system with a huge machinery running the show.

The government should repeal this law and just do what they are supposed to be doing. Help the immigrants get on their feet, give them jobs so they can pay taxes. Give them a land to farm on and they will hire more people which will pay more taxes.

Either way, these kids deserve donations
by Chase on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:45 UTC

In the most cyncial terms, the reason that you take illegal immigrants and you school them anyway is because educating them costs far less to society than having an underclass caste seething in our ghettos, which costs a hell of a lot of money and people to police, let alone deport. While punishing illegal immigrants via executive power might intuitively feel like the best recourse, it more a knee-jerk response than a thought-out solution.

The world at large, and especially our southern neighbors, can and will continue to furnish many more desperate people than we can ever equal with competently trained border guards. I have a liberal outlook on events, but I do recognize that immigration controls are necessary now when they were not as necessary a hundred years ago. America can not afford an open door policy, or so the economic majors tell me, and so stemming the tide at the border is prudent, if callous.

But I am not so sure about illegal immigrants already intermeshed into the fabric of this country. We cannot deny that we have already invested a lot into these four kids; indeed, that is something most of this board is hopping mad about. But they show promise, they have rewarded that investment, and throwing them back across the border now blunts that just when that arrangement, however illegal, was beginning to bear fruit. For all the Keystone Kops and Yosemite Sams on this board who are all hootin' tootin' angry and will tar and feather me for making exceptions to immigration policy; do not prosecutors cut deals with the guilty in exchange for a greater good - future testimony or the revelation of evidence that otherwise would have been lost? It is not a flippant issue of black and white with the law, and such tossed off comments about social justice are actually injustice. This is about shades of gray. I say we have more to gain from these kids going to American colleges than we have to lose. Going farther, if in the future, other Mexican immigrants continue to beat the pants off our engineers from MIT and the like, we should naturalize them as well. I want that kind of genius here. Do you think Albert Einstein had to go through the normal channels when he applied for his damn green card? These kids are no Einsteins, at least yet, but I point out its not like we've never made exceptions before.

Finally, the idea that these kids are somehow guilty of a felony is disingenuous and disgusting. One kid came over in the trunk of a car when he was 11. The only person that young I've ever heard get slapped with a felony shot a bunch of schoolmates with a rifle. Perhaps people will argue that every second they stay here adds to their crime, and that thus, the two that have since turned 18 are now racking up time at Arizona State (Penitentiary) like electric meters on the side of a house. Of course, we can't really imprison them, can we, because even then they will still be violating American soil, and sucking up far more tax dollars than it would take to school them in the first place. Maybe we would expedite them to the Mexican authorities? Would they really care enough to prosecute them?

I see no point in calling these kids felonious. Really, its just a way to incite anger against them when there should be only sympathy. These kids are not even accessories to the original damn crime; when their parents said "lets go junior, we're running the border tonight" the kid could've said "no, dad, that's illegal - I guess this is where me and you go our separate ways?" No, that's ridiculous. No court in this country, or even in Mexico, would declare a fifth grader emancipated.

Anyway, I can't even begin to figure out all the outrage over the "leeching" these kids are supposedly doing. I've been in the country since birth, and am now 20 years old and am enrolled in college, and quite frankly all I'VE ever done is leech. I admire the kids out there putting themselves through college, but there are only so many jobs out there that high school grads can use to support even the cheapest college education. I've never paid taxes, yet I receive the benefits of higher education. I may as well throw myself across the border with those kids.

In fact, if one of them has a car, we could carpool.

In any event, even if you want to send those criminals back where they came from, donate to the damned fund anyway. It'll pay for university in Mexico if it don't pay for university in America, and for the greater human good these kids need to get a degree SOMEWHERE.

obey the law (of course)
by Mats on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:47 UTC


"do you live alone on a desert island?

so you are telling me that if you decide murder and theft are "correct" than society shall observe your decision??"

well, what if the "Great" law is telling you to murder other people ect. (Like Nazi Germany, Stalins USSR, ect.)

would you follow?
guess so
after all its the law...
breaking it makes you a criminal
and thats bad

who do you think makes the laws?
God?


Interesting
by Smeggy on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:53 UTC

I'm an Australian, so I don't feel I really have any right to criticize American policy. But I will say this, some of the comments I've read on this article make me very very worried for the state of the world. Very worried. In my personal opinion, people like these kids should be encouraged, not shown the door. Sad thing is, the same thing would probably happen in Australia.

v You people really makes me sick ...
by Ignacio on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:55 UTC
v @Smart Patrol
by Joe Arroyo on Wed 6th Apr 2005 22:56 UTC
...
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 23:04 UTC

I live in Mexico and Genius people don't get support here, that's why they have to migrate to other countries my advice to you Americans is to use that kid talent or other countrie that is not Mexico and prolly a competence of the USA will.

Is always better to have a genious working for you than working for the enemy or the competence.


v I'm Glad That These Are Smart Kids
by Jeff Flowers on Wed 6th Apr 2005 23:06 UTC
you sick people
by Anonymous on Wed 6th Apr 2005 23:08 UTC

Man just because their "undocumented" dosn't mean their human. Come on, they even rocked this underwater robot competition. I sense alittle envy from the haters.

Correct
by Adam on Wed 6th Apr 2005 23:10 UTC

Personally I think MIT should offer them scholarships.

I do not condone the idea of illegal immigrants but illegal immigrants and other non-citizens still pay sales tax and can be drafted.

RE: Genius High School Robot Team Can't Afford College
by Mexican OS News Reader on Wed 6th Apr 2005 23:12 UTC

Hi. Im a frecuent OSNews reader from Mexico,
so that means I´m not an U.S. undocumented immmigrant.

To the O.S. News editor:

I thank you, first, for providing the story,
which I think its a good article for the OSNews webiste,
even if there wasn't anyfund, I think
it deserve to be here. And the same goes
if it was about asiatic or black kids.

Second, thanks for the fund, wheter It works,
and I hope it works.

To the rest of the readers:

I always like to listen to both sides of the story.

I have been in the US several times as a tourist,
and I know that sometimes immigrants don't follow the law,
and sometimes U.S. citizens either.

I have to accept that if an immigrant steals,
or sell drugs, the goverment has the right to deport it.

But If a couple of immigrant teenagers enter into a school
competition and win, I don't see anything wrong
if an individual starts a collegue fund.

U.S. citizens may have the right to complain
about gangs or money from the tax payers.

But attacking a private fund ?

Give me a break.

P.S. Yes, wait for my paycheck,
so I can give my small but hard-working donation...

robots
by Bill Leeper on Wed 6th Apr 2005 23:13 UTC

Reading all the bigoted and slanderous replies in this thread almost make me sorry I fought for the right for these people to be free to say what they please. Too many of you are calling these kids criminals and felons. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Most of these kids probably had no choice in the matter. Their parents probably brought them while they were to young to have a voice in the matter. I for one intend to make a small donation.

Bill

I want these guys in the USA
by Cindy on Wed 6th Apr 2005 23:14 UTC

I think this was one of the most amazing stories I have read in a long time. Very inspiring. There are lessons to be learned on any number of levels.

If you boil this down to illegal immigration, you are missing the boat, and you probably need to go find the missing piece of your soul. Or you're just young and stupid. And scared.

These guys kicked MIT's ass. They want to be on my side. I want them on my side. Better them than some whining young jerk.

And.
by Adam on Wed 6th Apr 2005 23:15 UTC

And if undocumented illegal immigrant high-schoolers can be the most prestigious engineering university, MIT, at a robot engineering contest. These kids most definately are cunning and should be going to MIT.

I'm Glad That These Are Smart Kids.
by Jack on Wed 6th Apr 2005 23:16 UTC

I for one believe all anglo-saxon's, native or not, should be deported back to their respective countries. They, white people, have encroached, mooched, and stole land. Stealing is still illegal, no? Pilgrim get your bags, you're going home!

RE:And *
by Adam on Wed 6th Apr 2005 23:18 UTC

can beat*

MIT should or any other prestigious school should recognize this talent and provide full scholarships, even to these illegals.

v @Jeff Flowers
by Ignacio on Wed 6th Apr 2005 23:21 UTC
It just smells funny to me
by Chris on Wed 6th Apr 2005 23:23 UTC

I think this story is probably blown out of proportion.. It just seems odd to me to hear this: "High school students out-engineer all university students." Makes me wonder ya know... I mean MIT is renowned for it's robotics research...
I think the kids will find money though. Government isn't the only way to get money; although they should work for their citizenship in whatever way is possible. It is important to be a citizen of your country, or at least there legally.

And all the crap about law is getting old. This isn't a question of law..

bring 'em on in!
by monkeyhead on Wed 6th Apr 2005 23:23 UTC

I could care less if they're illegal immigrants. It's a privately funded "scholarship", and they're kids who most likely came into the US with their parents.

Seriously... what would you do if you were in their shoes and your family was leaving the country in hopes of a better life?

Sorry ma! Sorry pa! I ain't gonna break the law. I'll just stay here by myself. good luck with your new life! i think i saw a nice crate round the corner that i could move into.

good luck to these kids, i'll happily give them my precious tax dollars.

The thing about it is...
by Devin on Wed 6th Apr 2005 23:23 UTC

...that the US didn't gain bright individuals, but Mexico lost bright individuals--individuals who could have been leaders in their country, but instead will be yet another set of cogs in the American system.

v illegal immigrants
by pepe on Wed 6th Apr 2005 23:35 UTC
US Sucks
by Martin on Wed 6th Apr 2005 23:37 UTC

"send them back"...?
To all of you who say or think that these kids ought to be sent back to their countries, I must say that I am disappointed...

Who the hell to you think you are? Aren't you and your monkey president trying to 'free the world'? Or suddenly that isn't the true thing? What's up? These kids cannot produce enough fuel for you to driver your insanely V12 engines at 55mph through 6 lane highways?

Get a life US citizens. The world goes beyond your "more than weak" border and CNN; or, get a pump shootgun and start killing people. Oh, but you already do that, sorry.

id10ts.

A few observations

1) The request for donation, wasnt from tax funded money.
It was out of voluntary givings.
2) People on work visas in the US get no benefit from medicare or social security, and yet have to contribute.
So some people crying about tax money beeing ill spent
should think of this.
3) US has been successful because it has been more open
and adaptive then others. open to talent, ideas, and
opportunity.

How about we switch things a bit...
by Jonathan Thompson on Wed 6th Apr 2005 23:44 UTC

Let's assume we completely change the names and faces and the places involved so it's all abstract. Race is a non-issue. Let's say the individuals honestly want to become functioning members of some society, and have proven they can be productive. Well, part of being a functional member of a society is living by the laws, and paying for what they get. There's no such thing as "Free" because the cost is paid by one or more people, or the infrastructure.

Let's say there are people in the society they wish to be a part of that have expressed an interest in having them be a part of their society. Why not provide them with the Membership Kit, that has the instructions, "Some Assembly Required: Batteries Not Included!" and have them jump through the requisite hoops. Let's get them registered as full citizens of that society, according to the laws that govern it. Let's remember the fact that they didn't have complete control over how they got to where they were at, but they DO have the ability to do something about whether or not they live by the laws of their current location: this is a concept called mercy, which is required for justice. The fact is, they ARE here ILLEGALLY (the kids in this case) but those decisions (in this case, at least) was forced on them by those that knew better, and had the stewardship/responsibility for their welfare and general well-being. Those that committed the crime of bringing them into the country illegally have no right to complain about what they themselves have to pay, but it's only fair that they should pay in terms of appropriately assembling the Membership Kit, in whatever form it comes in. They can't plead "I didn't know!" or "Nobody would help me!" because there's plenty of resources for doing things in an orderly fashion. After all, aren't such societies that have Membership Kits very orderly, only too willing to give you paperwork to fill out? All these societies are insisting on is that there's order so that things can be administered fairly, with justice for all.

Any citizen of such a society has benefits to being a member of the society, but they also have many obligations that come with it. If you aren't really a member of the society, you don't get the benefits (or at least, in a fair world, that's true) and you also don't have all the obligations that go with it. It really isn't beneficial for either side to have someone exist in a state of limbo. If someone gets into a society as a non-member, what are their intentions? Are they friend or foe? Those intentions need to be clearly stated by filling out their Membership Kits. Ok, so things take time to complete. Oh well, did you really expect the Membership Kit to be purchased for free????

Carefully note that there's absolutely nothing remotely racist or ethnic or economically or nationality discriminatory in what I wrote above: it's all about justice with a blind eye to things that are irrelevant to the question at hand: it's all about achieving a Win-Win scenario for everyone involved, willingly or not.

<rant>
It's really not a simply "yes or no" answer. The ones that are truly "undocumented", and yet somehow working, are really few and far in between. You'll mostly spot them picking lettuce or some other seasonal crop. This is because it is easier for a remote and rural farm operation to make use of unscrupulous hiring practices. This first group often suffers the most -- living in slave-like conditions because 'el jefe' is constantly threatening to turn them in to "la migra" if they don't get back to work and do as they're told. This group will take advantage of free public education for their children, *maybe* -- only if said 'el jefe' allows it. This group is highly unlikely to apply for social programs beyond health care for fear of detection.

The vast majority of illegal immigrants, however, no longer fit into this first category. Perhaps we can refer to these as the "pseudo-documented". They have obtained, for a negligible fee, false documentation through what is commonly called "identity theft". Although this group is adding yet *another* crime to their repertoire, they cause fewer problems in the system, and live better. Instead of working for shady taskmasters, they work at "respectable" corporations. You'll find them stocking shelves at Wal-Mart, asking if you want fries with your order at Burger King, or in just about any and every "service" job that requires minimum English skills. They have to at least provide false documentation so that the business that hires them can go through the motions and claim "Hey, we did our part" if it comes out that they were illegal. All this means that they (through the use of their false identity) are paying taxes just like you and I. Wal-Mart is required to take out Social Security, etc. from their paycheck, just like it does from yours.

This second group is usually here for much longer term that the first group. This is a 2-edged sword. it can make them tend more easily toward becoming "Americanized" in negative ways. They may start making demands of the system and feeling entitled to privileges just like most Americans do (sadly). From what I've seen, when they first arrive, they're hard workers. America is the one that teaches them laziness. "What, you don't have to work, here! Just accept state welfare and you'll be ok". Most of the real welfare cases are, in fact, Mexican *Americans*, not true Mexican Mexicans.

Again, the vast majority of illegals no longer work in the fields. They fall into this second category. So, in summary: Are there illegals that don't pay taxes? Yes. Are there illegals that do? Many more, but they are breaking further laws to get there, in exchange for easier living and better treatment. What can we do about it? I feel the libertarians have the solution on this one, and you probably won't like it. I think the only long term solution is to get rid of the socialist programs like welfare, social security, etc. thus erasing the motive of the bad apples that only come here to leech off the system. Only genuine, hard workers would want to come here anymore, and there would be enough of a reduction in quantity that they wouldn't overwhelm the *legal* immigration system, anymore. This, of course would have the added effect of returning the tax dollars wasted on said government programs back to the citizens from whom they never should have been taken. This will never happen, however, because too many *American Americans* have exchanged their freedom for false security of government socialist programs and can't live without them -- any more than the bad apples among the illegal Mexian immigrants that they complain so vehemently about.
</rant>

RE: The Law
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:02 UTC

"I read the article and these kids seem to be all below 18."

Same thing I noticed. As minors brought by their parents, they didn't break the law by entering the USA... it's their parents who broke it by bringing them here. Therefore these kids aren't criminals like they have been called by so many here.

Haha, what load of crap.
by Jack on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:04 UTC

This remind of that old Reagen welfare queen propaganda.

Well for those guys above here's another welfare queen for you :

http://www.reason.com/0403/fe.js.confessions.shtml

Again, you guys are focusing on the wrong people.

Re: Anonymous
by Random on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:06 UTC

Were you exceptionally bright kid that made the news? I doubt it.. ;)

I'm not the person you were replying to, but yes.

My family grossed barely $14,000 a year with two parents and three kids. I was on the news when I was only five years old because I was in a gifted children's program. I tested at an IQ of about 130. But, did I get any special help beyond that program which consisted of extra work and no reward? No...

I have thousands of dollars of debt from College and I'm still not done. When I see stories like this I want to kick someone in the head. I had to work for everything I have or my family worked for it and life was *hard*. Do I ever get scholarship offers or other things? No.

Sorry, but undocumented means not legal, means they should be kicked out. They should have come in through proper channels.

re: robots
by ben on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:14 UTC

what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty is the question? good question. lets arrest them for being illegally in the country and then go through the whole taxpayer process of finding out if they are really illegal or not. then if they are we can ship them back to mexico and they can come here legally afterwards. i would be willing to help them out then. and if they are not illegals then i would be willing to apologize.

i am just so upset that people are willing to defend illegal activity in this country. stealing movies, music, games, software via p2p. defending illegals' rights. the list could go on and on.

its called the rule of law and we either live by it or get it changed by staying active in politics but dont complain about it or try to go around it if you arent doing anything legal to fix it first.

idea for a new fund
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:21 UTC

I think we should start a new fund, aimed at gathering enough money to bribe any gouvernment instance that controls citizenship, have them nullify the US citizenships of some of the angry, angry post-owners here, and send them to Mexico. There they could go through applying for a US citizenship again, while getting some nice experiences from Mexico and observing their surroundings.

Then, in say 10-15 years, we can have a follow-up thread in which they say their sorries, explain that they were wrong, and top it off by having them kiss everyones butt.

Why it would be worth 20-30$ to me. Anyone?

It seams like ...
by mo on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:22 UTC

--- deleted --- I wrote a lot of sh**... but such postings makes me really pissed of!

"Sorry, but undocumented means not legal, means they should be kicked out."

Imagine: One of your program is not running correct! It has a small but very critical failor. But your company need this program or it will loose a loot of money in the future. Now what are you doing? Do you realy delete the program? Or do you fix your small errors and save a lot of time, productifity and money?

Immigrants can't vote
by Nymia on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:23 UTC

Ben said...

its called the rule of law and we either live by it or get it changed by staying active in politics but dont complain about it or try to go around it if you arent doing anything legal to fix it first.

One problem with that is immigrants have very little or no rights to begin with. How can they sway public opinion if they are invisible?

Really, some smart and selfish alecky made this idea of illegal immigration to the benefit of the some group and the detriment of the immigrants.

tough situation
by Roy on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:23 UTC

This is a difficult situation that doesn't have a good solution. This particular instance is only extraordinary because these students are so obviously talented.

The US cannot accept all immigrants from Mexico that want to come here. It would completely destabilize the labor market and break the current balance of taxes and services provided by the govt. Yes, historically, the US was build on the work of immigrants, and most of us only have to look a generation or two back to find an immigrant in our family tree. However, it can also be argued that this nation was also built on the exploitation of those immigrants, that it mainly benefited the rich, and that it came at the expense of the less fortunate US citizen laborers of that era. Nations are formed for the preservation of its citizens and there is an inherent selfishness in this preservation.

BUT... the motivations of these people are honorable. They generally just want a chance to work for a better life for themselves and their family, so the characterization of these people as criminals, though possibly technically accurate, doesn't do them justice. They aren't evil or depraved. They are simply disadvantaged. At a minimum, sympath and respect are in order, if not assistance.

AND... to all the "US sucks" people out there, Europe is no better in this respect. Most European countries (particularly the wealthier ones) are just as, if not more, protectionist than the US. The main difference between the US and Europe here is that we share a large border with Mexico. And to all the people that love to call us theives and murderers, pretty much every nation in existance has some dark chapter in its history filled with countless injustices, so the US is also not special in this respect either. If your beef is with our current actions in Iraq, please realize that the US is currently split down the middle on this issue. Not all of us were in favor of the war.

God Bless America
by yawn on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:24 UTC

subject says it all

v Assholes
by Joe Arroyo on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:31 UTC
v Attention: Mr. ShittyPants
by Little Joe on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:31 UTC
Philosophy
by somedude on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:39 UTC

Firstly allow me to say that one couldn't reasonably describe a citizen born on U.S. soil as an immigrant. They may be descended from immigrants, but are not immigrants themselves. This is simple logic; where did they immigrate from?

Secondly, the issue of law versus morality is a double edged sword. In a very platonic sense laws are shadowy reflections of the ideal morals upon which they are based.

Thirdly, many have (one in particular) equated the crime of the student's in question to original sin. This is a bogus comparison for many reasons, but sufice it to say that ignorace of laws and morals does not excuse the act of breaking them.

Lastly, the moral broken by these students is acknowledged by great thinkers such as Socrates and Adams (the economist/philosopher). Adams posits that contributing to the economy of any other than your native country is immoral. Socrates in fact refused to leave Athens prior to his execution even though it was feasable for him to do so. The general point I'm making is that you are tied to the land of your birth. Gaining citizenship in another country is a betrayal of self and is thus inherently immoral.

Note for the casual reader (i.e. idiot): Even if immigration laws were changed or erradicated, it would still be immoral to emmigrate from the country in which you are a native.

Laws
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:40 UTC

Illegal doesn't mean bad.

It was illegal for black person to ride in front part of the bus quite recently.

Depriving people of basic human rights (like freedom of movement) that's what is criminal.

Question
by Little Joe on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:47 UTC

Some idiot said: "Gaining citizenship in another country is a betrayal of self and is thus inherently immoral...Even if immigration laws were changed or erradicated, it would still be immoral to emmigrate from the country in which you are a native."

Question: Why?

send them home
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:49 UTC

I don't care if they have the cure for cancer. Let them enter the country legally or get their education in their own country. And this goes for people who are here illegally from Mexico, England, Japan or wherever. Its not about racism its about the fucking LAW! They are breaking the law by being here. Send them back!

v @Random
by JP on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:49 UTC
v Re: Laws
by somedude on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:49 UTC
Brains = Good. Illegal = Bad
by LimbaughInstitute on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:50 UTC

Yea, while we're at it.. why don't we just open the borders to the people who murdered nick berg if they have an IQ above 130. There are reasons that countries (especially the USofA - post 9/11) have immigration procedures. Ship them back. I don't care if Einstein smuggled himself in the country - ship him back, too. We have procedures to enter in legally. If you don't want to wait for 15 years to get reviewed, then tough. Life isn't fair. I know, you bleeding hearts out there, thats hard to bear.

Take the emotion out of this. There are rules. There are reasons for the rules. Ship them back. Now.

Re: Jose
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:51 UTC

I descend from European and "Native American" ancestry. Both of those groups were immigrants, and if we really want to be especially anal we're all African immigrants.

But where we come from doesn't matter. What our ancestors did so that we exist where we exist has no intrinsic value upon the mores of today. The customs and actions of the past create no responsibility for actions today.

Many things used to be legal that are not today, and many things today are legal that were not previously. We are not our fathers' fathers.

If people would like to live within the U.S., and to have the respect of its legal citizens, then they need live within the U.S. in accordance with its laws. No appeals to emotion will create anything but resentment.

Fairness is irrelevant. Whether people earn citizenship or not is irrelevant. People do not earn many things. Intelligence, physical prowess, wealth, being attractive, or basically as many things as you would care to consider. And while you can certainly hope to convince people that it's acceptable for people to illegally live within the U.S. because the universe contains a dearth of equality, you will find that your arguments fall upon deaf ears.

RE: littlejoe
by somedude on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:53 UTC

"Question: Why?"

One reason I gave you: it is a betrayal of self. If you were born into a tribe would it be OK with you to start working, hunting, living with another tribe that shared the same habitat? Remember that these people raised you and taught you everything you know about working, hunting, and living. Is it really right to take dear that could have been theirs?

Re: Anonymous (IP: ---.fukt.bth.se)
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:57 UTC

Would you sponsor my immigration to Sweden?

where is mine?
by B on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:58 UTC

This story is not tragic as much as it is ironic.

It's not tragic because there are equally bright legal citizens who can't afford college.

But it's far more ironic that I got near zero financial aid for college because my family had enough money to be ineligible for the free money yet didn't have enough to pay for me to go.

If you don't live in America you don't realize how much we get beat down here for being slightly successful. Everyone who is rich can easily pay for college and everyone who is poor is eligible for the handouts we subsidize through the taxes that reduce our paychecks to below a living wage. We in the middle have to work full time just to go to school part time.

Maybe you can understand why we get a little bitter when we hear stories like this. We're not racists and we're not anti-immigrant.

It's just unfair, especially when those of us complaining are second or third generation Americans whose grandparents were *legal* immigrants. Believe me when we understand how our *legal* immigrant grandparents were treated unfairly because they couldn't speak English or had dark skin.

I work full time, pay taxes, and I still can't afford to go to school. All things being equal why should someone in my same position who is breaking a law get to go to college while I work for peanuts?

No sympathy
by Harald on Thu 7th Apr 2005 00:59 UTC

Those students don't deserve more than anybody else.

In fact, they deserve less because of their illegal status.

RE: RE: littlejoe
by LimbaughInstitute on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:00 UTC

"Is it really right to take dear that could have been theirs?" Yea. It's called the survival of the fittest. I agree that they should be sent home... but I don't agree with the premise of your argument. According to you, Christopher Columbus shouldn't have taken the indians' dear then (literally). I'm sure as heck glad he did though. Indians weren't the fittest. (Hey, I'll trade you $1 for 100 acres and some fire water.. OK!.. haha)

v RE: Immigrants can't vote
by Martin on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:01 UTC
RE: Fairness and Law
by Little Joe on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:03 UTC

"If people would like to live within the U.S., and to have the respect of its legal citizens, then they need live within the U.S. in accordance with its laws...Fairness is irrelevant."

Wrong. If the law isn't fair then "the law is an ass" and it does not get respect, and often not even by the people supposed to be enforcing it...it is merely tolerated until it can be circumvented completely in individual cases by whatever ways and means necessary.

RE: LimbaughInstitute
by somedude on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:05 UTC

You may not agree with my argument, which I am perfectly fine with. However, perhaps before you decide you should understand it as from your reply I see that you do not.

No, Columbus was not morally wrong for the SOLE act of exploring. The actions taken by Spain and the other so-called conquerers were immoral since what they did ammounted to genocide. Columbus, as per my earlier statements was acting immorally when he decided to sail under a Spanish flag, rather than the flag of his native country.

Please don't use any of my previous or future posts to support racist theories about survival of the fittest. You don't seem to understand that particular theory either.

Competition
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:07 UTC

Once freedom loving and capable people created great country and now their pathetic and useless great-great children are ruining it because they are afraid of competition with freedom loving and capable people.

RE: Survival of the fittest?
by Little Joe on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:09 UTC

@LimbaughInstitute

If 10,000 illegals are entering your country on a daily basis, as has been claimed in this thread, then you may need to re-assess your criteria for "fitness" very soon...

Re: Fairness and Law
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:09 UTC

There is no fair way to permit everyone in the world to live and prosper within the United States. If that bothers you, then you have to take it up with a higher power than the U.S. legal system. In the mean time you can cherish all of the resentment that illegals receive for disregarding immigration laws.

Respected they are not. Exploited? Yes. Tolerated? Sometimes. Respected? No.

@Martin
by LimbaughInstitute on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:10 UTC

"US Citizens, get a life, your're but a bunch of ruled by a monkey, id10ts."

-The US is the only super-power in the world. Sounds like you're the id10t. especially since you can't spell Iraq - thats with a 'q' not a 'k'.

"What gives you the right to send anyone back?"
-Two words. 9/11.

Sounds to me like you've been reading a little too much Carl Marx my friend.

Sorry. No money from me
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:12 UTC

I have to agree... I'm not going to give money to help illegals steal chances from those who legitimately follow the law and try to find legal ways to make their dreams come true.

RE: Competition
by somedude on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:12 UTC

The point you are missing friend is that they aren't running away from a dictatorship to partake in democracy. They are leaving a free country with a poor, yet improving, economy for one with a currently higher set of attainable rewards.

I personally feel that these exceptionally bright students should jump at the chance to study at a Mexican University in order to raise the (mostly uninformed) opinion of that country. The implication of leaving your own country to move to "greener pastures" is that your country, and by extension its people, are not capable of performing at the same level.

RE: Fairness and Law
by Little Joe on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:12 UTC

"Respected they are not. Exploited? Yes. Tolerated? Sometimes. Respected? No."

...all depends on who you ask, doesn't it? I could never care less what you personally happen to respect.

RE: Competition
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:16 UTC

> I personally feel that these exceptionally bright students
> should jump at the chance to study at a Mexican University

And I personally feel that it is their decision where to go and what to do, not yours. Freedom - Americans heard of it.

@Somedude
by LimbaughInstitute on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:17 UTC

Hahahahaha! Oh man, .. yes, your intellect is much higher than anything than mine could reach - you little genius you.
*Dripping with sarcasm.

Actually, i was using the columbus thing because many people can reference the story in order for me to make my point about the "taking someone else's dear" thing. I guess you could say it technically was the colonists that did the most of it, but I'm sure some indian went hungry if Columbus decided to "harvest" some native wildlife for supper during his grueling exporation. I wasn't addressing the morality of him leaving or not leaving his country - i was referring to the morality of "taking someone else's dear" - which, i gathered from your comment, you considered to be immoral. So, read your own comments before you comment on mine please.

Re: Fairness and Law
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:18 UTC

Given the proficiency with which you whine about the sentiments directed toward people that violate the immigration laws of the U.S., I had presumed that you were capable of comprehending the distaste that is typically thrust upon them.

I mean seriously, what kind of stupid question is "all depends on who you ask, doesn't it?" You might as well ask if morality is objective while ignoring that homophobia is alive, well, and routinely voting to deny homosexuals marriage rights.

$
by KrZ on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:23 UTC

well, i'll be making a donation.
I hope they become citizens and take ur jobs (or ur kids)

RE: @Somedude
by somedude on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:24 UTC

No my friend, I believe you are the one that really needs to vist past posts.

I stated that it would be immoral for a member of tribe A to leave tribe A and join tribe B. The reason was the person leaving tribe A would be competing against HIS OWN PEOPLE. It would not be immoral for that SAME individual to STAY IN his tribe of birth, A, and take deer from tribe B. If I have broken this down far enough for you to digest, you can see that Columbus taking the proverbial deer from his competitors (i.e. the natives) was not the immoral act and therefore your counter-argument doesn't apply.

It is NOT immoral to support yourself by taking (if necessary) from your neighbor. It IS immoral to steal from your family, tribe, country, or whatever word you choose.

Please, for the love of whatever you find holy, stop posting. You are only increasing your own shame.

v Homophobia?
by LimbaughInstitute on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:25 UTC
Spanish speakers, #1.
by Jack on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:27 UTC

By the way spanish speakers are now the number one minority in the US. Soon to be the majority. I can only imagine how Limbaugh will react when his daughter comes home with Juan, or Pablo he's bound to flip out.

Respect, eh just wait til hispanic people make moves up the ladder you won't help but respect them.

Anyways most minorities are put through this crap. Italians, Irish, Japanese, etc ... After all America was founded on racism, and will exist on racism 'til it's decline.

Could we keep this thread under 200, I don't think we should break the record set by Eugina's GNOME editorial.

Mexicans
by Simpson on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:27 UTC

Why is every comment that says something bad about illegit immigrants "pending review"?

Are we supposed to be happy US citizens are losing millions of jobs to illegits.

If all of them went back they would have enough numbers to start a revolution - but they'd rather sneek over here; that's easier.

Losers.

Re: Homophobia?
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:29 UTC

While your dedication to your craft is noteworthy, I'm not the droid you're looking for.

RE: Mexicans, @Simpson
by somedude on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:30 UTC

Woah there chief. The site is automated. The pending review probably comes up then someone hits the handy "Report abuse" link at the bottom right of a post.

Pending review doesn't mean deleted and I haven't seen any of the "bad posts", even those with foul language be deleted.

RE: Fairness and Law
by Little Joe on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:30 UTC

"I mean seriously, what kind of stupid question is "all depends on who you ask, doesn't it?""

As I said, with supposedly 10,000 illegals being added to your country every day, you may find that over time their collective opinions and attitudes and the effects of their presence on everyone else will carry a lot more weight than you would like. Oh, but wait, that's happening already!...

@Somedude
by LimbaughInstitute on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:31 UTC

Oh c'mon, this is hilarious! I'm having fun, how about you?

"A would be competing against HIS OWN PEOPLE."
-Correct me if I'm wrong.. but staying within one's own country puts you in competition for jobs with your fellow citizens, correct? I must be wrong on that one. *shakes head. It all depends on which level you're looking at it.

I think it is you who should lie down before you hurt someone or yourself.

v send the fuckers home
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:33 UTC
Spanish speakers, #1.
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:33 UTC

Many hispanic people command considerable respect by no small majority of the citizens of the U.S. You can pretend that the entire matter is one of racism if you really want, but I think if that were solely the case that the Caucasians would simply begin purifying their land or whatever act would befit your perception of barbarism.

Illegals deserve no sympathy.
by Praveen on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:35 UTC

Many of you guys speak as if it no longer possible to come to the US legally. Thousands of people do so every year.

Secondly, it is possible to get a very decent education in many “third world” countries. I came to the US legally, I had completed a masters degree in computer engineering my home country.

I waited patiently for my opportunity to come here legally. I have no sympathy for people trying to jump the queue.

@Somedude
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:35 UTC

Your tribe loyalty "moral" principle is a definition of racism in it's pure form. In your sick world, people who left Nazi Germany because of the moral principles and then fought against it were in fact "immoral" while those who stayed and diligently exterminated millions of civilians in gas chambers were in fact, example of "morality".

Re: @somedude
by somedude on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:37 UTC

Again, your failure to grasp the situation startles me.

The job market is an open resource that anyone in our tribe (i.e. Americans) have equal access to. The resources (i.e. jobs) are allocated (in the ideal case) based on the past performance and ability to execute the required tasks.

Out performing or being more well qualified for a job is not a "kill or be killed" competition against your own people. It is a perfectly legit way of obtaining your rightful share of the common resource.

Re: Spanish speakers, #1.
by Jack on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:38 UTC

Ah, I don't think so. Racism is used on the masses as a tool to induce bickering amongs the small factions and thus prevent them from seeing the true enemy or underlying problem.

When you get to a certain level there's no such thing as racism. As you can probably see from this thread most people are scared of each other. Fear begets .....

Re: Fairness and Law
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:39 UTC

10,000 fruit-pickers who don't participate in the country will accomplish rather little for a long period of time. In generations they will have populated regions of the U.S. sufficiently to alter immigration laws to favor their relatives. Then you'll find that it's the Pakistanis or the Indians or the Chinese that are incapable of earning the respect of legal citizens of the U.S.

What a wonderful improvement.

Pure Racism
by JP on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:42 UTC

<Too bad so many white Americans are too shallow and too egocentric to concern themselves for problems that don't affect their white suburbs and SUVs.>

This particlar comment strikes me as racism in its purest form.

Let's see . . . you could replace "white" with "black" . . . and replace "suburbs" with "inner city" . . . and replace "SUVs" with "Cadillacs".

Now maybe you can recognize you have made a purely racist comment? See . . . its all just the same.

By the way it turns out the scientific definition of "race" is on mighty shaky grounds in any case. I predict before too much longer people will have to come up with some other completely stupid reason to hate people.

Or maybe they could try loving people instead of hating them?

BTW: I've got a sneaky suspicion some of you folks are getting your inpressions of the US from the BBC. I invite you to come over for a visit . . . whatever you decide about the place I bet you won't recognize it from what you've seen on BBC:-)

One last point.
by Jack on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:43 UTC

One last point before I retract from this crap all together, public education == poop, public healthcare == a joke, etc ...

If you really want your children to have a chance you'll school them privately or send them off to some prestigious institution. American health care is also a joke, you need lot's of rupies to hire a decent doctor.

What this boils down to is fear, and politicos federales playing off people on each other. After this whole thread I wish I had money to donate bu sadly I don't. Best of luck to those boys, and may god bless who ever the hell s/he/it likes.

RE: Philosophy
by Free Cascadia on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:46 UTC

>Lastly, the moral broken by these students is acknowledged by great thinkers such as Socrates >and Adams (the economist/philosopher). Adams posits that contributing to the economy of any >other than your native country is immoral.

(of course these students were not the ones who chose to come to America, but their parents. poor young brown-skins are so difficult to distinguish, ya know...)

BTW,
Adams (the "great thinker"/philosopher of capitalism along with Marx) also posited the free movement of LABOR as the integral colorary to the free movement of CAPITAL.

...Idealistic Capitalism, incidentally is based on the individualistic pursuit of self-profit or satisfaction with NO REGARD to the community and/or "Nation".
...so, recognizing an immoral element to emigration, would equally require a recognization of the complete immorality of Capitalism...
OF COURSE you can check any decent history book to learn more about how this contradiction was developed further (see Nationalism, Fascism... Howard Zinn offers a decent synopsis of the American state, Wilhelm Reich wrote a great analysis of the structure of European Fascism.)

>.... The general point I'm making is that you are tied to the land of your birth. Gaining citizenship in >another country is a betrayal of self and is thus inherently immoral.

'you are tied to your country' is an IDEAL, but obviously in the case of these kids' PARENTS, THEY WERE NOT completely 'tied' to their country, at least in the sense of refusing to travel/ emigrate/ work in an economically more abundant sitaution... SO, their 'sense of self' was GREATER than the national border of Mexico and USA, in this case...

as many have pointed out vis-a-vis USA as a country of immigrants (and conquerors), the sense-of-belonging of the USA was from the very beginning predicated on ABANDONING a previous sense-of-belonging (from England, Ireland, France, Italy, Japan, China, etc, etc. in addition to the forced destruction of previous cultures (African, Indigenous))


ONE CASE: I was born in Japan to my American parents (language teachers) and did not move to America until I was 2 years old (where my American-ness was recognized thru my parent's citizenship).
Japan does NOT give legal citizenship to people born in the country, and in fact there is a substantial class of people, mainly of Korean/ Chinese descent, born and raised in Japan, speaking only Japanese, who are not 'citizens'.
(The USA does this only because of the amendment aiming to ensure the enfranchisement of 'native' american blacks.)

...SO? in my case, I am 'NOT' at all 'tied' to the land of my birth, except as I choose to exert my own self, i.e. the state institutions do not recognize my 'tie' to the land.


While the actions and intentions of Trans/National Powers (Corporations/Governments) are completely implicated in "Immoral" transgressions against community and nation
(this is the essense of Capitalism, for good and bad),
Poor families are attacked for their 'Moral failings', which consist of breaking rules enacted by and for Governments and trans-national Corporate Power Interests...

what is 'immoral'? crossing a desert, or economic warfare which obligates thousands to cross a desert (where many hundreds may die, trying to cross) ?

Race
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:46 UTC

> By the way it turns out the scientific definition of "race"
> is on mighty shaky grounds in any case. I predict
> before too much longer people will have to come up with
> some other completely stupid reason to hate people.

Didn't this thread show they already did?

Residency papers - a perfect replacement of skin color (as a reason for discrimination).

RE: @somedude, Anonymous
by somedude on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:47 UTC

No no. If you were able to extract that from what I wrote then I accept responsibility for not expressing my thought well enough.

Let me attempt to clear up what I feel is a misconception of my words.

The immorality was on the part of the Nazis. Many of the jews they exterminated were members of their tribe (i.e. Germans) and they were being selected based on their religious belief and ancestry. What they did was genocide which can not be considered in any form to be moral killing. It was done with no real provocation and not in defense of themselves.

Human beings aren't perfect and therefore they can do immoral things. People that weren't able to see the immorality of the holocaust and took part in it made a very bad choice.

The whole tribe thing is an analogy, you simply assumed that the members of my "tribes" were all the same color. I hadn't even considered that aspect.

Great story!

The reality is they contribute to the economy in many ways - Western Union, Check Cashing, Wal-Mart, and grocery stores to name a few. The problem is they come here because SOMEONE is willing to break the law -- those that PAY FOR THEIR LABOR. Two guilty parties however one has a noble intention.

Stiff penalties/hard-time for exploitation or even fair treatment of UNDOCUMENTED workers.

Humanely provide a one-way ticket back to undocumented
workers homeland.

I am from Central America myself (Nicaraguan). My grandmother immigrated legally worked her tail off in manufacturing clothes (sweatshop anyone?!) she quickly realized her destiny was in her hands pick up a trade. She went to cosmetology (spelling?) school. She learned that vanity was a good business in the states and eventually OPENED AND OWNED a beauty shop in San Mateo, CA. Anyways she did all this LEGALLY.

I know some Mexicans her in Durham, NC some undocumented and others documented. Those that come here only wish to improve their lives and their family lives. Those that use undocumented workers are criminals and are more than likely reaping huge rewards. I appluad them for their hardwork. Some reform must take place in regards to immigration. I sincerely believe since we have too many lawyers we do not have JUSTICE. Laws MUST BE ENFORCE ACROSS THE BOARD or BORDER ;)


Get the facts right.
by Praveen on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:51 UTC

Most liberals try to equate anti illegal immigrant sentiments to anti immigrant sentiment. These are two very different things.

Most of the people I know who harbor anti illegal immigrant sentiments, treat legal aliens very decently.

Re: Re: Philosophy
by somedude on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:55 UTC

Adams (the "great thinker"/philosopher of capitalism along with Marx) also posited the free movement of LABOR as the integral colorary to the free movement of CAPITAL

Yes he did. However, stopping the flow of illegal immigrants into the U.S. would not necessarily stop the free movement of either labor or capital. The flow of both would only seize up if there were no excess of either. That is to say, if there are unemployed people in the work force and there are jobs they can fill, labor and capital are moving. If there are more jobs than people? Economic down-turn.

I agree, for the most part, about your comments toward the ideals. Morals are inherently ideal and I never said the system does, or would ever, meet them. Would you rather I based my argument on current laws? Those are mutable.

Well Said!
by JP on Thu 7th Apr 2005 01:56 UTC

<<Residency papers - a perfect replacement of skin color (as a reason for discrimination). >>

Yes indeed. I think you're onto something there. Another advantage is since Residency papers are so easily forged you can more easily change your opinion of someone merely by updating the paperwork.

Idiot Box
by somedude on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:00 UTC

Alright. Well I've voiced/defended my opinions do with them what you will.

I have some tv to watch.

I'm of two minds about this.
by KadyMae on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:01 UTC

What are the requirements to go to University in Mexico? Are these students out of country so long that they won't be admitted?

Frankly I've no problems with these kids getting student visas or being greencarded.

But, given how draconian the INS is of late ... there was a case recently in Las Vegas where two teens were almost deported back to Armenia, despite the fact they had lived in the US since they were tiny children and didn't speak Armenian. (The father, who became a citizen back in the early 1990s, thought for whatever reason that his daughters had become citzens when he became naturalized.)

These girls were in the INS center in LA, about to be shipped to a foreign country (which didn't want them, because they didn't have Armenian passports) before a lawyer managed to get an emergency hearing.

So yeah, real CRIMINALS, these girls.

Finally, my husband did not become a US citizen until he married me, and he was in this country ILLEGALLY for many years. Why? Because he didn't know until he was 25 that his "dad" wasn't his father. (And his dad, being a lazy SOB, never got around to formally adopting him. Meant to, but never did, and intentions don't count.) So, my husband had a green card (when he was 6 months old) but had never re-registered when he was 13 and 21.

Now, granted, he had family still in Germany, but he had no German ID of any sort, und ich spreche mehr Deutsch als ihn. We did go through all the proper channels to get him naturalized, but there were a few very very nervious moments when it looked like he might find himself with a one way ticket to Munich.



@Somedude
by LimbaughInstitute on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:02 UTC

your initial dear comment did not go nearly into that much detail as to explain exactly what you were talking about when it comes to 'taking deer' if you will. if we're talking about a free market economy and job market, you appear to be very learned on the very relevant subject and i commend that. on the upside, we agree they shouldn't be here, on the downside, we disagree that it's wrong to taken a deer from another person in another country.

Fully reentrant multi-threaded dynamic bigotry
by JP on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:07 UTC

In fact I think I see the real way out of this.

We need a more dynamic bigotry for the 21st century.

Tiger Woods may have already shown the way. I ask you who is the more successful "white man" today, Tiger Woods or Michael Jackson?

The static forms of bigotry which characterized the 20th century led to continual warfare. Jesse Owens runs a little too fast, Joe Louis fights a little too well, and only warfare can resolve the "crisis".

Today we have the computer as arbiter. Therefore the computer needs only to tell us these Mexican kids were actually born in the USA. Case closed.


It seems most people shouting to send back the kids home (in a box?) just act out of jealousy or something...

Just how many did say "I didn't get it! Why should THEY?"

Well, because usually people want the next generation (our children or others) to get better things. Yes, your children could be mexican!

Anyway, having to get a loan and pay back years after.. just to be able to study is really frightening (outside of a third world country). I guess if we had to do this in Europe we'd just decide the information we get from TV is good enough and forget that dumb expensive college thing. Cartoon Network would do just fine :-)

If you had to fight like a lion to be able to study ... why the hell don't you just wish others, after you, could do it in an easier way? Because you're just too pissed off? Just like when you bought the fastest PC and someone got a cheaper and faster one, just the next month?

Oh, and please don't mention that "illegal" thing about frontiers. The guy who put the first fence started this whole mess... Take a trip to outer space (they're cheap nowadays) and watch the american continent, and others, from the sky. Do you see a line? Other than the one they put in your head?

Re: Why can't they get anything better than what you did?
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:10 UTC

Can I have your clothing?

v black vs white bullshit in this thread.
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:16 UTC
RE: Just another AMERICAN
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:25 UTC

> I didn't treat you poorly, I'm sorry if my ancestors did.
> Are you here illegally? Go home, or we will help you go home.

And then some years later your grand-child will say to those you are going to "help go home": "I didn't treat you poorly, I'm sorry if my ancestors did". And then his going to force someone else out (by some other principle, as "residency papers" will no longer be acceptable characteristic to discriminate by, just as skin color isn't today anymore).

bull shit
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:31 UTC

If you aren't here legally, you don't deserve to be here. If you do want to be here, go home and apply to be here legally. Once that's approved we will welcome you with open arms. Don't twist what I said to serve your agenda.

v I get discriminated against every fucking time
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:34 UTC
Sophistry
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:34 UTC

If you travel into space and look down upon this planet, you won't see your house, your dog, your children, your town, or all of the little agreements you and your neighbors have come to about them. Should you, or should you not be able to own a handgun? Should you or should you not be able to have hateful imagery flying from a pole in your yard? Should one or should one not have private property? Should I be able to take your children? Should I be able to live in the house your daughter and her husband just built?

Well if you look at the Earth from space, you won't find any answers to any of these questions. You can look at the Earth from where you sit right now, and you still won't find any answers to these questions.

You can construct answers to these questions. That's because they are all human constructions. How any one of you would answer one of them or an indefinite supply of others will more often than not depend on where you were raised and who raised you, because "they" have been putting civilization into their childrens' heads since time immemorial.

v RE: bull shit
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:36 UTC
America's economy
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:40 UTC

I'm from Poland and recently my country joined European Union and all these people in "old" EU thought that we will massively go to their countries and will work for 3 euros/hour and will be happy and will ruin their economy.

Nothing like this happend. Because we already all know that employers from "old" EU are mostly criminals and we often prefer to work for less but at our homes with our families.

And I'm sure that it could be very simmilar in USA/Mexico relations.

But americans thinks that everyone that lives outside USA is criminal or terrorista... and this is good ;) because they will create their own gettho, they'll keep talented people away and when they will make more wars their economy will collapse and this is good for the world ;)

v RE: I get discriminated against every fucking time
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:42 UTC
v Just like your grandpa said
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:42 UTC
fuck that
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:44 UTC

I said people without papers allowing them to be in my country shouldn't be here.

That's not discrimination, not by any means.

Re: America's economy
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:45 UTC

The U.S. encourages talented people from abroad to come and learn in our universities, work in our industries, and start their own enterprises. It's a shame you know so little about the country, and a further shame you choose make such comments regarding the businesses of Europe.

http://bezeqint.net/
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:46 UTC

It's perfectly clear now.

You want to come to america, and you don't want to do it legally, so we are discriminating against you by saying that you should stay home.

Apply for a visa, or don't come in. Locking our doors and only allowing people in that we want in is not discrimination. We open our doors to almost anyone, so unless you have a shady background you shouldn't be offended that we want to check you out first.

RE: America's economy
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:48 UTC

> But americans thinks that everyone that lives outside USA is
> criminal or terrorista... and this is good ;) because they
> will create their own gettho, they'll keep talented people
> away and when they will make more wars their economy will
> collapse and this is good for the world ;)

This is indeed what would have eventually happened were it not for massive illegal immigration. America IS getting huge influx of fresh and talented blood, they are just not getting it nice and easy way but rather hard and painful way.

Re: I get discriminated against every fucking time
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:49 UTC

> You are the living walking proof. You are saying people
> without "correct residency papers" should not have equal
> rights. Just as your ancestors said about black people.

Don't forget those "correct dog ownership papers," "correct airplane piloting papers," "correct accreditation papers," and "correct ownership papers."

There are a lot of papers those racists want that are denying people equal rights!

don't forget
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:50 UTC

the correct automobile driving papers

RE: Just like your grandpa said
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:50 UTC

> fuck what my grandpa said. He's dead, get over it.
> you continue to show your ignorance by not letting go.

You are doing the exact same thing he did.

@somedude
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:50 UTC

You've made several posts regarding some notable philosophers of the past being of the opinion that one must remain loyal to their place/tribe/whatever of birth, no matter what. I don't care who said it, or how brilliant they may have been at other times. This idea is simply ridiculous. Why don't you do some thinking of your own, instead of blindly trusting dead philosophers?

v Anonymous (IP: ---.red.bezeqint.net)
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:53 UTC
Discriminating
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:58 UTC

> Don't forget those "correct dog ownership papers,"
> "correct airplane piloting papers,"
> "correct accreditation papers," and "correct ownership papers."
>
> There are a lot of papers those racists want
> that are denying people equal rights!

With all those papers they and you have equal rights. They and you have to go through the same procedure to get them. That is what is called equal rights. With regards to freedom of movement you and they do not have equal rights. You are discriminating against them.

RE: @somedude, Anonymous
by somedude on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:59 UTC

"blindly trusting" is a little of a stretch don't you think?

The fact that I mentioned Socrates should be enough of an indication that I recognize the importance of thinking for one's self (in case you don't know that was his whole bag).

That being said, why would I cast out good ideas just because someone else thought of them? One can think for one's self and still pay proper tribute to the ideas of others.

everybody
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 02:59 UTC

has freedom of movement here, you just have to prove that you are worthy of coming here. Everyone has to go through the same process unless you were born here.

Deal with it.

v US
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 03:01 UTC
RE: Deal with it.
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 03:05 UTC

> Everyone has to go through the same process
> unless you were born here.
> Deal with it.

That's what I am doing.
Just as my ancestors fought with yours about slavery.

Re: America's economy
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 03:05 UTC

>The U.S. encourages talented people from abroad to come and
>learn in our universities, work in our industries, and start
>their own enterprises.

Buuuhahaha... yeah right...

U.S. encourages talented people only when they are able to pay for their education.

And more - U.S. citizens are allowed to visit my country without visa and any problems, while we need to pay $100 for visa procedure (while they reject 30% requests but take money) we need to scan our fingerprints, eyes, photos etc. like neat.

I don't even want to know what I need to do to work or start my own company in U.S.

>It's a shame you know so little about the country, and a

Propably I know much more about your country than you know about mine.

>further shame you choose make such comments regarding the
>businesses of Europe.

Believe me - I know what I'm talking about.
Lot of employees in "old" EU that want to employ _legal_ immigrants form East Europe are criminals.

They don't pay at all for job and almost always they pay much less than they pay to their citizens for the same job, they expect people to work for 16hr a day, often in extremal environment. Just because they want immigrants to do jobs that any German, French etc. doesn't want to do at all.

Nebraska
by Robocoastie on Thu 7th Apr 2005 03:07 UTC

Nebraska now has in-state tuition for undocumented.

>>These kids are hardworking geniuses.

oh and a farmer, rancher, minister, machinist types aren't smart and just as deserving? occupation bias pisses me off so much.

...
by Nick Borrego on Thu 7th Apr 2005 03:15 UTC

I guess the art of mowing lawns is the modern day calligraphy.

Both right
by iongion on Thu 7th Apr 2005 03:16 UTC

First of all, i am not an US Citizen, i am from Romania(if you ask french people next to my age where is Romania, they tell you "... somewhere arround rome...".

1) My sallary is 400 $ / month.
2) I am daily student at state faculty(no fee).
3) 22 Years of age,currently 3rd year of total 5 of university.
4) Its illegal to be illegal (Dont go out of your own country by illegal means, only your country abuses you <-"All of you posters that live in good democratic countrys, let us, the ones that were not born so lucky, tell you that a whole country might be against you(unfair reasons, and in that moment you are morraly, not a citizen of that country anymore)-your country behaves illegal to you"->
5) Better countrys are exactly like better people, they try to help the not so strong ones(imho this is utopic/politic related issue)
6) The world, not just US, but everyone MUST promote the tallents.
7) To americans out there, dont be so "shauvinistc"! Remember that there is no real "usaian", or "californian", or "texan" or "newyorkan"... what the world so called best democracy was built upon was ideals and great behaveours of foreign people that didnt like the systematisation from their countrys.
8) Shame on all of you, that you dont try to put a serious note to this post, you all become rasists, shavinistics, xenofobs.

This whole POST should be canceld.
I see mature, grown up people expresing ideeas as old as in the slabory period. Shame on you!

re: RE: @somedude, Anonymous
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 03:19 UTC

To study history and past philosophy is golden. It enables us to avoid committing the same mistakes of our ancestors. The point isn't to throw out all ideas of the past, or those thought of by others. You are correct that to adopt "good ideas" is, in fact, a "good idea" -- no matter where they come from. The point here is that the specific idea you brought out about stubborn loyalty to one's culture of origin is *not* a good idea. This in no way implies that all of Socrates ideas are bad. The fact that Socrates made these observations is irrelevant. Socrates was not perfect. I will not attribute more weight to an idea than it deserves just because Socrates said it -- even if I may agree with many or all other things he said. No idea should be judged based on who advanced it. If the idea is sound, let it stand on its own.

re: RE: @somedude, Anonymous part duex
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 03:24 UTC

BTW, I'm quite aware of what Socrates was "about", but contrary to your affirmation, the mention of his name is *not* sufficient to establish *your* dedication to self. Anyone can drop a name. Socrates would likely be appalled by your use of his words as infallable truth.

v @bleeding heart liberals
by rockwell on Thu 7th Apr 2005 03:41 UTC
luckily they didn't migrate to Australia
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 03:42 UTC

Had these students been illegal immigrants to Australia they would probably (along with their families) have immediately been arrested and interred at a migrant detention centre (aka a high security prison) while their cases were being reviewed (up to 3 years). These centres are in some of the most inhospitible and isolated spots in Australia - equivalent to the middle of the Nevada desert. Since they would have no legitimate case as refugees they would then be deported. The government also bills them for all costs incurred for accomodation, legal fees, flights home etc.

Strangely enough we don't have many illegal immigrants arriving in Australia.

blah
by dazed on Thu 7th Apr 2005 03:53 UTC

I wonder what happens when I break the law in Mexico, Canada, or any other country other than the grand old USA. (Maybe it's only okay to break the law in the USA)

@iongion

technically speaking, there are no true "romanians" out there either.

Peace
by Sc on Thu 7th Apr 2005 03:56 UTC


Let everyman do what he thinks is right in is own mind.


God bless America and all the Gentile Nations : Europe ,

Japan and Australia.

and a bit extra..
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 04:03 UTC

In Australia we have what is known as a Tax File Number. If you don't provide it your employer is legally obliged to deduct 49% of your wages as tax. It is also a very serious offence to employ illegal immigrants (or pay employees off the books). Illegal immigrants also have no access to health services, education, banks, driver licenses, rental accomodation etc. Government agencies also frequently raid companies that employ illegal immigrants. At a large company I once worked for immigration agents checked the identities of all who arrived for work.

If they're here illegally then they should be exported. I don't care if they are "geniuses". I'll put it bluntly, if you don't come here legally you don't have a right to be in the country nor do you have any right to obtain a scholarship or loan. Geez people, shut down the Mexican/US border, build a wall backed up with armed guards. I AM SICK of these people leeching off of my country!!!

The Law
by Jason on Thu 7th Apr 2005 04:06 UTC

You know, if it's against the law, why aren't their ever this many comments defending the DMCA, the RIAA or the MPAA tactics? Why aren't people satisfied with the Microsoft ruling. They were found guilty, and they were punished. It's over with.

If it's against the law, why do people still speed? After all, that still costs us money.

Maybe people like the law, and feel it's morally right. After all, if it's the law, it can't be wrong. And anyone who breaks the law is evil. And deserves to be punished.

Next time the RIAA sues a 12 year old, I am sure you will be supporting them every step of the way.

And none of you have every pirated any music, I am sure. And are completely happy with the DMCA. Hell, it's the law! You have to support it.

And to think, the US was built on people who today would be breaking the law. Who today would be labeled terrorists.

To think, I served in the US military so my fellow citizens could stand up and say: "The government can do no wrong."

You know, just because the law might say they need to be deported, they have proven themselves to be valuable members of society. The humane thing to do would be to give them a chance to prove themselves.

And for those people asking "Why not me?", you've been given the opportunity from day one. More opportunities than these guys were given. So when you ask that question: ask it to yourself. Because if you aren't going to college, it's your own damn fault.

From someone who's been there, and someone who is more ashamed each day of calling himself an American.

Illegals do not pay taxes
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 04:08 UTC

Most illegals are not paying taxes and are paid well below minimum wage in the under the table style. I guess either the IRS is lazy or there is some petty cash rule that allows them to not account for the few thousand a year they pay to day laborers to avoid paying the legal wage and get the cheap labor.

I'm against any illegal immigrant that is leaching off our taxes. If they're being paid and paying taxes I have less of a problem with that. But facts are facts many border states public healthcare systems are being taxed by those who are not paying taxes and are hurting the legitimate taxpayers that risk losing a valuable public service. This is not just limited to healthcare there are many services they put a burden on without putting into it.

Also if anyone has studied the problem, illegal immigrants are the #2 source of money coming into the Mexican economy and that falls behind their Oil and Gas profits. It's no wonder the government down there will not do anything about it other than promise action that will never take place.

Re: @bleeding heart liberals
by Jason on Thu 7th Apr 2005 04:13 UTC

"Those who favor giving free handouts to ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS are complete fuc*tards. "Oh, it's not their fault." "Oh, we're pushing away OBVIOUS brillance." "Aren't we the land of the free?" Meanwhile, I can't afford to send MY OWN KIDS to top-flight universities due to cost. And I've been PAYING TAXES for 25 years."

I agree. I don't think I should be sending your kids to school either. If you can't send them to a good university, that's their problem, and yours. Don't blame it on anyone else but your own inability at being able to support your family. I don't feel my taxes should go toward paying your kids tuition. Hell, they weren't smart enough to get scholarships, they deserve whatever they get.

You couldn't get a better job because of your lackluster skills? Your problem, not mine.

I am glad we see things eye to eye.

Now I understand
by Ghibertii on Thu 7th Apr 2005 04:15 UTC

I now understand how George Bush got elected again because it seems like many of the small minded morons actually post here! Geeze! Where were all you guys when we went to war without cause? lack of energy policy in the US? US government stamping all over the rights of US citizens after 9/11? etc? etc? etc?

People like Rockwell are exactly what is wrong with this country, go back to your cave and turn on FOX news and while your at it, why don't you join the Minutemen.

The Businesses that Pay Them
by Jason on Thu 7th Apr 2005 04:17 UTC

Everyone complaining about the illegal aliens need to stop and think for a moment.

Rather than go after the aliens, why not go after your fellow American's that are paying them to do the work in the first place. After all, if they weren't paying them, they wouldn't come because they wouldn't have any place to work. It's really that simple.

At least for those of us who were able to make it to college. I'm sorry, I went. I can't blame immigrants for my inability to go to a university.

v That's why everyone else hates the U.S
by Phil on Thu 7th Apr 2005 04:29 UTC
re...nice try to get my money
by none on Thu 7th Apr 2005 04:33 UTC

Sorry but these kids shouldnt be penalised because of there immigrant parents or our own bullshit corrupt/broken system that doesnt want to give immigrants green cards anymore.

Why do we pay the ins,border patrole again?



Illegal immigrants is the immoral poloticians way of getting free money.Thats right...free money.After working and there employer paying benefits for there lifetime,the govt. doesnt have to pay back benefits because there...well...illegal.lol
what a scam they got going.

why is this crap posted here anyway?
I think someone from OSNews bet another fellow he could generate 200 or better comments with the right artical....you are all morons...:)

so, what about the fund?
by pajbee on Thu 7th Apr 2005 04:35 UTC

Ok ok ok, everyone has vented a bit of steam or whatever, but what about the fund? I for one will make a donation, it will make me glad I contributed to something positively.

I mean, even if they are thrown out, they could still use the money wherever they go, right?

And I dont buy the "I got no help, why should I help anyone else"-stuff. Everyone that feels mistreated, this is your chance to end a vicious circle of nobody caring or feeling like helping anyone else. Maybe if people start helping each other out any way they can, they will end up on the other side of that help occasionally.

The way I see it is that if you were unfairly treated, you can either put it behind you and try helping someone else (making sure they get the chance you didnt) or you can keep the bitterness forever and just attack anything that comes into range.

If money is a too big a sacrifice, how about just writing something nice or giving a positive comment here instead of all these "go home" posts.

Re: Discriminating
by Praveen on Thu 7th Apr 2005 04:51 UTC

“With regards to freedom of movement you and they do not have equal rights. You are discriminating against them.”

Legal immigrants have all the rights an American has, except the right to vote. People who violate the law loose their freedom of movement. These illegals made a choice not to follow the law when they jumped the border, rather than follow the due immigration process. Hence they loose their freedom of movement.

I have a colleague who is also a legal immigrant. He has his family back in Russia. He is following the due process to bring them over here. It will take him up to 5 years to complete the process (not the 18 years some one mentioned). When they finally arrive, they will be be able to enjoy all the freedoms America has to offer. On the other hand some illegal who wants to come the easy way without waiting their turn in a due process, looses the freedom offered.

v well now isn't that special
by richard cranium on Thu 7th Apr 2005 04:52 UTC
RE: The whole damn thing.
by Andthentherewere3 on Thu 7th Apr 2005 04:57 UTC

People seem to focus on the concepts of 'justice' and 'this great land of ours'. Now, I don't condone illegal immigration, but let's look at the big picture: We're engaged in a war that is considered 'illegal' by many of our countryfolk and most of the world (yes, we should care what they think). We have favorite nations, favorite trading partners, a favorite tax-bracket (the extremely wealthy), we make and break the rules. If you think a couple of kids who build a robot symbolism the problem, get your head out of your ass.. the 'real world' will shock you.
Now, how 'bout them new AMD chips, eh?

Re: Discriminating
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 05:00 UTC

> With all those papers they and you have equal rights. They
> and you have to go through the same procedure to get them.

Yes, we both have to abide by the laws and standards to acquire them. Much like immigration laws. Children that are born here are citizens, those that are not can immigrate like everyone else. And if they have children here, they too will be citizens.

Countries can and do choose to define the laws governing citizenship, much as they do many other things. And like with owning firearms, or who can pilot an airplane, there are prerequisites that not everyone will meet.

Those outside of the U.S. are not denied rights, they are simply not entitled to be members of the U.S. I have no claims to the pension system of Germany, either. Those bigots.

Suggestion:
by Ray on Thu 7th Apr 2005 05:07 UTC

The best thing I can think of is to get the words out to the papers, news channels, and tv shows like Operah. It is quite a story, touches a lot of social problems in America. People will definitely dig it. With the publicity, these kids can get anywhere they want.

I may be a little naive. But I think it just might work.

Ray

v Discriminating
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 05:08 UTC
Re: That's why everyone else hates the U.S
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 05:09 UTC

> Did YOUR ancestors get permission to immigrate? Possibly,
> more than likely they just immigrated anyway. Shot a few
> natives and claimed the land. Hypocrites.

My ancestors didn't get permission to put buildings on their land, either. They didn't need to register handguns. They didn't have to pay income taxes. They didn't have to do a lot of things. Your historical knowledge is truly insightful.
But hey, my ancestors were those "natives," being shot at. Thank you for fighting that good fight for me with your moral righteousness!

el rant
by mercedes on Thu 7th Apr 2005 05:10 UTC

There's this underlying assumption that immigrants are just draining resources from "honest hard working americans"; I find that hard to believe. I've never lost a job to someone whose lack of education only allowed them to take a job at a local mcdonalds, taco bell, the nearest field. Also, they pay taxes! The only "people" I know who don't pay taxes are usually 1)wealthy or 2)corporate "entity" both seem to go hand in hand. So, my suggestion go back and get your GED; your already ahead of other people then. Next, get some motivation and work your own way up. Some people just forget that not so long ago their parents, grandparents, etc. were immigrants. Those that weren't; well times change, keeping a monopoly to just those people you like, well it comes to an end eventually.

/
:)

Re: el rant
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 05:17 UTC

As far as I can tell, no one not trolling has expressed any qualms with actual immigrants, merely people that illegally enter the country. There are those of course that do not like immigrants at all, but they aren't posting here. You're arguing against positions that aren't being taken in attempt to lend credence to your philosophy that because others previously did not have to meet legal requirements to enter the country, that others should not have to either.

Re: Discriminating
by Praveen on Thu 7th Apr 2005 05:24 UTC

“You never allow them to have one in the first place. Because they don't have particular paper you require they are not allowed to move freely (from Mexico to US, for example). Just as before you didn't give equal rights to those who didn't have particular skin color you required.”

You just don't get it! I don't know where you guys get the Idea that the US does not allow foreigners in??!!

I am a legal alien in this country. I came into this country perfectly legally. Race has nothing to do with this. There are millions of others like me who came in legally. Visit the USCIS website (www.uscis.gov) to find out how to come to the US legally.

Discriminating
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 05:32 UTC

> Visit the USCIS website (www.uscis.gov) to find out
> how to come to the US legally.

All those tens of millions illegal immigrants are stupidly risking their well being, health, freedom and sometimes even life while it is actually very easy to move to US legally.

Stop spreading the lies. Except for "close relative" program, there is no meaningful legal way to immigrate to US. Of the millions immigrating to US legally 99% come through "close relative" program.

hence no ss# = don't pay taxes =false
by mercedes on Thu 7th Apr 2005 05:45 UTC

Umm... social security numbers are damn easy to get; its a piece of paper for god sake that they ask you not to laminate /at least here in arizona. WHich is why identity theft is so prevalent and other methods where faking a social security card exist. Also I believe that it is up to the business to check the validity of the numbers. It either costs them too much or thei're "fishy", hence, Most never run the numbers through and play a pretend game with state officials when they get caught. How the else do you think that Wal*Mart's contract firms for cleaning handled its affairs; other companies frequently use the same method.

So, yes they still pay taxes; some people actually benefit as long as the illegal doesn't commit any crimes with the number. For example, an illegal uses "Irene Lopez" and gets her social sec number now adds several years of work time and hence points to her score. The money was taken out in taxes; government ok. The only problem I can see is if the immigrant tries something funny but you don't kill your free ride that way; your gonna want to come back and use the same name again. Yes, a real Irma Lopez does exist and yes, she was pissed when it happened to her but realized that otherwise she would not have been getting higher benefits. My kind of american. Sort of like a recent report that showed most americans underreported their incomes.

/get off your high horses

to this guy
by mercedes on Thu 7th Apr 2005 05:51 UTC

hahaha,
um other than them coming first and becoming those "close relatives"; which is now harder, your just hoping to "granddaddy" a bunch of people.
-------------------------------------------------------
Stop spreading the lies. Except for "close relative" program, there is no meaningful legal way to immigrate to US. Of the millions immigrating to US legally 99% come through "close relative" program.

Re: Discriminating
by Praveen on Thu 7th Apr 2005 05:58 UTC

"Stop spreading the lies. Except for "close relative" program, there is no meaningful legal way to immigrate to US. Of the millions immigrating to US legally 99% come through "close relative" program."

If you have skills or knowledge that is useful for the country, you can easily come to the country on a work visa. Your employer can then file for a permanent residence with the USCIS who will then process the application on its merit. There are 65000 H1 visas issued this year , there is no number cap on the number of L1 visas, Many people on F1 visas become permanent residents etc

If everybody who wanted to come to the US could do so freely, you would find the trickle of immigration would become a flood. Then you would be having a major over population crisis. A country should have the right to choose who it wants to let in. This screening process has been gong on for well over a century (Visit Ellis island).

I bet you are careful in allowing who enters into your house? You just don't let anyone who you don't know in, do you? When required, you let in a stranger whose skill you need (like a plumber) in, but only after you are sure of his authenticity. So why this double standard when you government is doing something similar?

After posting about the legality of things, which seems to be the major focus of everything in this whole stinking mess, I read the article, and discovered THERE ARE NO STINKING ROBOTS CREATED BY THESE KIDS!

The Wired article was being irresponsible and vague when it comes to the definition of what a robot is. Heck, what these kids made wasn't even a remote-control car via radio or other wireless means!!! What they made was sufficient to deliver a camera feedback to their monitoring equipment, and provide potentiometers for controlling the throttle to some motors: nothing more, nothing less. There was no computation involved in controlling the robot-that-isn't-a-robot: no computer was involved, and no programmable system that did a programmed task.

Chances are, the MIT team may have actually used something that qualified as an actual robot, in that it was programmable, though that's not mentioned in the story. After all, the story is all about these "genius" kids that designed and built a "robot" that beat the top universities in a contest. While they were resourceful in using tampons to soak up the leak, how long would that last? It's fortunate they weren't required to leave the "robot" in the water for more than a handful of hours, because tampons have their limits ;)

And it's true: "Robot Wars" and the like don't use real robots, either, but they're still more advanced than what these kids assembled: they're not tethered by a wire. It would be much more impressive if these kids had designed and built a radio-controlled model airplane, including designing and building the radio transmitter and receiver.

So, I find myself asking: how on earth did such an unrelated story to anything related to computers and operating systems and the industry get submitted and posted on OSNews?

"Beaver, it's all just an overhyped story of some kids putting together an expensive underwater toy! Now go home and play with your marbles!"

v Stop immigration
by Innominandum on Thu 7th Apr 2005 07:07 UTC

Undocumented???? why don't you just say it like it is. Illegal. I'm going to college now and nobody is paying for it wish I could get a scholorship but I guess I'm too 'documented'

An equation
by kloot on Thu 7th Apr 2005 07:23 UTC

undocumented -> illegal -> punish them?

What about:
attacking -> illigally entering another country -> punish them?

Things aren't always black and white...
Some countries would be "put in quarantine" for attacking another state. Well... we aren't being consequent in that for all countries, so get over it, and give them credit for at least trying to be good citizens...

Just wanted to add another comment. I see a lot of people in this forum keep saying that I as an American citizen should be nice to 'Illegal Aliens' because after all all Americans are immigrants. My -and almost everybody elses- families entered the country legally and became citizens right there and then. These kids are not immigrants they are illegals. They can go back accross the boarder and apply for American citizenship just like every other law abiding person.

"Every law abiding person"

-> Well... your law is not always another persons law, and they may not know all your laws...

I for one am not abiding the law right now. Because of administration, I have no health insurance right now... In my country you are obliged to have it...

general commentary
by Tony on Thu 7th Apr 2005 07:37 UTC

I read most of these comments, more like 1/3 of the comments posted. Honestly, you guys talk about illegal immigrants not paying a "fair share", shows how self-centered you are. I am offended by most of the comments that people make, especially since my parents immigrated here illegaly. My parents obtained their residency through some amnesty, but before that, had odd jobs where they would be ripped off by employers, even if it was under the table. So what am I trying to get at? Most people come to America to try an propser because in their country they would have a much harder time, people who live in Mexico, Guatemala, etc., have to be middle-class to even consider going to school. I don't see how its any productive to vent off your frustrations on a couple of kids who obviously are intelligent and are putting their knowledge to good use. I personally applaud them for what they have achieved. They are an inspiration to many, including myself, who is a first generation american. I think you have to put politics aside and give them the merit they deserve. I know I will be contributing to their fund, because everyone deserves to go to school. Unless you are in their situation, or have parents who have been "undocumented" its difficult to understand. I hope some of you people open your eyes and put your biases aside and donate any amount of money. Anyway, if i made any grammar mistakes, so be it, I am tired. Thank you David Adams for the story.

immigrants
by The flying boolaboola on Thu 7th Apr 2005 08:02 UTC

I'm not reading all these comments but it seems obvious to me that the only real solution is for the Mexican government to snatch these guys and tell America: "You're not getting this bunch!"

If Mexico managed to keep that kind of talent in their own country and give them something better to do than menial work when they are obviously smart enough to do a lot better in life if only given the chance, they could help make Mexico a country where people wouldn't want to leave to get a 'better' life in the US.

I wholeheartedly concur with the people saying "send them back to Mexico" but not because they're illegal in the US or that they are a burden on society and unfair competition. I would like to see them move back home because their country needs their quality of people.

Besides, the US is old and busted. With China taking over the Western world's economy [a present by US CEOs and senior management by the way] there's not going to be any chance of a decent career for these people anyway. They'll be forever stuck paying for stupid costs to the detriment of investing in a better life for themselvels [education]. Why stay in a country that is only going to feel the very sharp sting of Asian competition in precious few years anyway?
When Oil is $250 a barrel and people are utterly and totally unable to pay for anything anymore why move to the US? Maybe a kid like that will finally do what the big corporations, with the clarity of vision of a filled-to-the-rim barf bag, have failed to manage: develop an engine that doesn't need fossil fuel to drive with better fuel economy than what US cars manage. We're still happy to get 45 miles to the gallon in 2005, sheesh. And you wonder why other countries are surpassing the good ole US of A?

?
by Basti W. on Thu 7th Apr 2005 08:40 UTC

""What gives you the right to send anyone back?""
"-Two words. 9/11."

Oh yeah right, here in Germany there are quite a lot of Russian people who are criminals. We should immediately send ppl that are not born in Germany to their countries. In your opinion for example all arabians are criminals just because there were 20 of them involved in 9/11? Sorry but that's incredibly stupid and i hope that's not what the maiority of the US Americans think.

"Sounds to me like you've been reading a little too much Carl Marx my friend."

Do you actually know who Carl Marx was and what he stood for? There's absolutely no connection between his statements and the Marxism. Ah yes and it's Karl Marx not Carl Marx. Just to critise your spelling.

Here in Europe a lot of people (actually the most) think that the average US American doensn't know were Europe takes place on the globe. That means we think you ppl don't care about anyone else than your "so great nation".

Statements like yours don't really help to change that view.

robots is expensive
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 09:27 UTC

i wonder how they afforded to build teh awesomest robot? robots are expensive to make.

Such a progressive society.
by Oscar on Thu 7th Apr 2005 09:39 UTC

I am really surprise how open and progressive is the people in the USA, I mean some Americans really need to start reading you could start with "Der Moloch" from Karlheinz Deschner, then again i guess many will only be able to read texts in English. I wonder if the Mayflower Pilgrims had greencards, or if the americans who start to invade Mexican territory ask before for a mexican visa?
Many things made USA big, but I think as much as you argue you can not deny that the more important was inmigration.
The biggest hipocresy is that you will not hesitate to make it a movie with a Disney end, even if the wpa likes the reality to be diferent.

honestly
by cokeisit on Thu 7th Apr 2005 09:47 UTC

I'm not donating because I'm a cheapskate. I don't need to bring up the illegal immigration issue to make myself feel better for not wanting to donate. Ironically, my cheap ass ways probably fuel the demand for "undocumented workers".

the law is the law
by ed on Thu 7th Apr 2005 09:52 UTC

Hey , the law is the law, right? Hmm, looking back to when America was formed, wasn't there a law saying you couldn't meet and discuss forming your own country? Didn't the Brits have you under their royal thumb? So , I guess all the people who died fighting and "liberating " the country they loved, are criminals? And , during the civil war, wasn't it legal to own, kill, breed, or trade a "niga"? So all those people who fought and died to end slavery were criminals too.
You know, stupidity and ignorance does happen all over the world, anywhere that people live together. The main difference is that the Western world use's the majority of all the worlds resource, and that's not going to go on forever. If you look back through history, everybody has had a kick at the cat, they were all on top of the world at one time or another. The fact is , none of them ever imagined that they would loose thier spot on top. If I was an american spouting off "send them back", I'd be watching and listening for the sound of heavey breathing coming up hard from behind me. Hear that? It's China, India, or whomever else is next. Think it won't happen? Think again. I don't hate America, after all , we're nieghbours, aren't we? I mean, sure you are trying to place us on the illegal list , too, gotta carry passports and submit to finger print and photo. But we are all just buddies, right?
There's no doubt in anyone's mind that the terrorist's have indeed won the war. Just look at your foriegn and domestic policies since 9-11. As long as this trend continues to worsen, then there's no doubt in my mind that the end is very close. She's a house of cards, and it's starting to tumble down. A society is judged by the treatment of those less fortunate. What started out as one those grand experiments, is now coming unravelled, and the thing that sucks worst is: I live right next door to you!

sad sad sad
by mellamoeh on Thu 7th Apr 2005 11:43 UTC

it's sad to see all this closed minded stuff about deporting these students with such bright futures. they deserve a chance to succeed I don't say that because their my fellow countrymen (i'm a mexican citizen and legaly in the usa), i think they and any others wether they be mexican, arabic, african, white, asian, etc all deserve a fair chance. you take all these illegal immigrants for granted who do alot for you and all that they ask is for a little respect and consideration. i'd like to see half of you working in fields, and in any hard a@@ jobs lots of illegal people do every day just to get by. these people are the backbone of the usa, without them you wouldn't have alot of luxuries that you have today, i think these students deserve alot of respect and all the help that they need.

this is still being debated?
by ben on Thu 7th Apr 2005 11:54 UTC

i have read all these posts and all i see is

1. the law is the law, let's follow it or change it but not break it...

2. the law sucks, who cares what the law is if it's wrong...

3. america sucks for having these debates but i am able to participate in this debate thanks to america so i shouldn't be posting here anyways...

ok, so i haven't seen anything really new in this debate since my last post and i wonder why it continues. there is a lot of name calling and cussing in here which isn't needed. just look at the facts of the case.

go to the link and read the source. read some more about it. then decide for yourself if they are illegal or not. if you believe they are illegal then you have to decide for yourself if you support undermining the law of the land or not. if you do support undermining the law instead of speaking out and making change, maybe it's time for you to move to a different country.

remember, laws did lead to things like blacks at the back of a bus or the holocost (as others in here want to point out) but it was only because people who could change those laws never spoke up. deal with this event in whatever legal way there is and then change the law so we don't face an event like it again.

belief
by ? on Thu 7th Apr 2005 12:26 UTC

Belief has nothing to do with illegal status. They are smart individuals. They know that they do not have to pay taxes. They know that they can not be refused health care. They know that they can not be refused gradeschool and highschool. They can get student visas and apply for college like every other foreigner who wants to study in the U.S. If they were U.S. CITIZENS, they would be able to apply for many school loans, like I did, Pell grants and many other means of being able to pay for college. They have received all of the services that I as a citizen pay for. Consider that my donation.

I'm a 2nd generation American. My family has been in the U.S. since 1962. I pay taxes and don't mind too much since I know what they pay for. I'm not against welfare, just abusing it. Note that my family came from dirt poor farmers in Europe, but one of the first things they did when they got to the U.S. was become citizens and to learn English as best they could.

NAFTA was a major and huge gift to both the Mexican economy and to the captains of manufacturing and the food industry in the U.S. It should be ended.

George Bush's answer to those who worry about having their job out sourced: There are many great federal programs for furthering your education.

What happens when "educated" jobs get outsourced? Oh wait, they already are, engineering, programming, manufacturing, there is little left--slavery is making a comeback as indentured servitude to the service industry.

v I can't believe it
by Gryzor on Thu 7th Apr 2005 12:37 UTC
Taxes? Is that it?
by Gryzor on Thu 7th Apr 2005 12:40 UTC

On the other hand, I bet all those morons who are scared about "their taxes", give immigrant aliens a chance to pay taxes, do not treat 'em like shit, give 'em a chance. Then tell me how many of 'em do not pay. Kick those. Keep the rest.

You've obviously never been an immigran alien, which explains why most of the US Citizens never travel outside the US of A. They don't know (or care) for the rest of the world. As someone said: The Eiffel tower is there, I've seen it!

Odd...
by benn on Thu 7th Apr 2005 12:44 UTC

I certainly cannot defend the U.S. in any way. There are some bad people in charge.

But let me say that anyone who pretends that the U.S. laws are drastically more unfair than those of other countries are delusional. In a democracy everybody gets what the majority deserves. And we all know what "the majority" is like.

Let's take Mexico, for instance. Did you know that you can't own property within 50 kilometers of the coast if you're a foreigner? This basically includes all of the Baja Peninsula, where I used to live. This effected me directly. As a foreign child living legally in Mexico, I was only given the right to attend school after bribing numerous officials, forging documents and getting put back a grade.

As a foreigner in Mexico, you are completely excluded from social programs, including disaster relief food/water. And I mean foreigners living in the country legally.

Let's face it: you can't rely an a government, any government, to do what is right. Do not look towards the government for morality or you'll end up a sad, disappointed person. Create a community or social structure of your own and rely on that.

That said, I sure hope these Robo-geniuses get into college.

The social matrix
by Arturas on Thu 7th Apr 2005 13:08 UTC

It seams the most powerfull state of the world is under control ;) . "Agents" and "slaves" (aka citizens) are scream - "everyone must be under control of the law". Well, I see the point of the Architect of this state - it's very good to have the predictable crowd which is under tight control. Even more, the crowd is self-orgnized and self-controled - I see it from some comments.

Disclaimer: I'm not an anarchist or someone of that kind. My idea is - there is always exceptions in all rules, it is natural, it is life. This is the case.

Deport EM
by Typhoon121 on Thu 7th Apr 2005 13:08 UTC

IF they are undocumented Mexican immigrants they should apply for green card/or visa and then worry about college. And if they are illeagle immigrants. How are they in public school in the first place if the school needs copy of birth certificate. They should be deported immediatly dont care how smart they are

The social matrix
by Arturas on Thu 7th Apr 2005 13:10 UTC

P.S.: I'm sorry for my poor English.

First of all, as someone whose ancestors were brought to the U.S. by force, as slaves, I have no problem with others wanting to live there. The only people that really have any 'right' to say something about it are the Native Americans who had their land stolen and where murdered by invaders. But, yeah, with most of them gone, they now have no voice. Very convenient.

Secondly, as a US citizen that now lives aboard, it is absolutely senseless that the richest nation on Earth can not, or will not, make a college education available for free, or at least at a very low cost, to any citizen who wants it. The US has more than enough money and resources to cover it.

Here in New Zealand, where I live now, a college education only cost one on an average of $3,000 (NZD) per year, and it used to be free until about 1980. If a nation with only 4 million people can do that, I'm sure a nation with 250 million plus can manage it.

Instead, we waste all that money on guns, bombs and war, or flying to the Moon, Mars or floating around in space, when there are people literally starving to death in the US, every day. Or having to put up with substandard health care that actually kills them, instead of saving their lives. Or old people having to eat dog food because the Social Security check wont cover food AND rent.

Scary Times
by David on Thu 7th Apr 2005 13:52 UTC

I was left speechless by most of the comments read on this page. That might have been expected in the post-9/11 USA, but reading this I suddenly realize how far America has drifted. And it is quite scary. So much for the so often self-proclaimed 'greatest country in the world'...
I hadn't decided about sending some money to these guys. Now I have.

I'm speechless
by Cuauhlti on Thu 7th Apr 2005 14:14 UTC

I'm from Mexico and I can't believe what most of the comments said about this subject. I always thought that this kind of community was more "open mind", but this is not the case. This kind of threatment it's what the latin american inmigrants deserve for making all the work that the mighty americans don't wan't to do.

What they really achieved....
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 14:21 UTC

If you actually read through the entire article you will find thta these so-called 'geniuses' managed to construct a contraption from PVC piping and left over parts that won pretty much on dumb luck. It was in no sense of the word a robot. It was merely a tethered submersible controlled via a wire link.

Apart from a few students from MIT the competition included such illustrious engineering faculties as Cape Fear Community College.

They won because they wrote the best operating manual.

In fact if they hadn't been poor illegal immigrants their achievement would have been considered quite trivial.

I feel sorry for thse kids but they aren't latter day versions of Nicola Tesla or Michael Faraday. I can assure you if they were genuinely brilliant they would have no trouble finding sponsors.






v Re: Speechless
by ? on Thu 7th Apr 2005 14:51 UTC
v Re:
by Me on Thu 7th Apr 2005 14:53 UTC
@mercedes
by rockwell on Thu 7th Apr 2005 15:08 UTC

//The only "people" I know who don't pay taxes are usually 1)wealthy or 2)corporate "entity" both seem to go hand in hand. //

Oh, COME ON. If you HONESTLY BELIEVE that the "only" people who don't pay taxes are the rich-n-famous, you're an idiot.

FAR FAR FAR more "poor" people don't pay taxes than "rich" people don't pay taxes.

Socialism is the cure
by nicholas on Thu 7th Apr 2005 15:12 UTC

Stop being so god damn selfish over there, and embrace socialism for the better good of all Americans.

Criminal Immigrants?
by Dave on Thu 7th Apr 2005 15:12 UTC

I'm surprised at the number of comments this story has received -- and the amount of bigotry it's revealed.

The real criminals aren't the individuals trying to find ways to feed their families, but the policies in both the U.S. and Mexico that perpetuate these conditions and make it simultaneously necessary, illegal, and dangerous to earn a decent living.

If these people are criminals for trying to survive, then Martin Luther King, Jr. was a criminal for violating Jim Crow segregation laws.

So what other countries are different?
by Aviva on Thu 7th Apr 2005 15:21 UTC

Wow, lots of bashing on everyone. ;)

So, do other countries pay for the education of people who entered their country w/out following immigration procedures? Just curious.

strange
by ? on Thu 7th Apr 2005 15:26 UTC

"I'm surprised at the number of comments this story has received -- and the amount of bigotry it's revealed.

The real criminals aren't the individuals trying to find ways to feed their families, but the policies in both the U.S. and Mexico that perpetuate these conditions and make it simultaneously necessary, illegal, and dangerous to earn a decent living.

If these people are criminals for trying to survive, then Martin Luther King, Jr. was a criminal for violating Jim Crow segregation laws."

What does this have to do with illegal immigrants who do not have U.S. Citizen, or Green Card or Student Visa Status, receiving the full benefits of those who do, who pay taxes to support them? The illegal aliens are getting a Free Ride at our expense. I don't understand why people thing they should be applauded.

Not Strange
by Dave on Thu 7th Apr 2005 15:31 UTC

"The illegal aliens are getting a Free Ride at our expense."

That's bullshit. They add more money to the economy AND to the government than they get in return. WE are getting a free ride at THEIR expense, if the truth be known.

Re: Dave
by ? on Thu 7th Apr 2005 15:35 UTC

Then lets not get a free ride anymore by closing the border to all Illegal aliens, to, according to you, THEIR benefit.

Hard working kids
by Hunter Moon on Thu 7th Apr 2005 15:56 UTC

"These kids are hardworking geniuses. They're the kind of immigrant every nation should welcome."

Frankly, if they are so smart, I can't imagine they couldn't get a scholarship back in their home country of Mexico.

It's not like engineering geniuses are exactly beating down the doors to get INTO Mexico.

Stop the hypocrisy
by Ikshaar on Thu 7th Apr 2005 15:56 UTC

"The illegal aliens are getting a Free Ride at our expense."

Read the news... the social security even plan its budget with the billions (!) collected from illegal immigrants (which use fake ID).

And don't forget that these illegal workers are employed by legal Americans citizens or residents ... who do not seem to wrap themself in the same pedant attitude as you do but more in the wealth of dollars gain from employing illegals.

v open source, close minds
by amilcarodonte on Thu 7th Apr 2005 15:57 UTC
v Nice, happy racist country
by KI on Thu 7th Apr 2005 15:57 UTC
The illegals are being exploited
by ? on Thu 7th Apr 2005 16:02 UTC

The illegal aliens are being exploited, and it is tantamount to modern day slavery or indentured servitude. The workers are not subject to worker's compensation, OSHA safety regulations and worker protections that LEGAL workers are, nevermind the fact that they do not receive fair wages.

The people who employ them exploit them, it's disgusting. It is the ugly side of capitalisim, and it will never end. Once Mexico's economy is built up and they are too expensive, manufacturing labor will move to Guatemala, Belize, Nicaragua or other 3rd world countries who's standard of living is low and labor is cheap AND UNREGULATED so workers can be exploited (paid poorly, no safety regulations, and no disability insurance.) Unfortunately, there will ALWAYS be cheap labor, eventually Africa, once the governments are more stable, will be come your new manufacturing mecca of cheap labor.

your taxes?
by amilcarodonte on Thu 7th Apr 2005 16:03 UTC

Mexican illegal migrants contribute annually $7 billion to social security. Check your closest non-biased newspaper for stories on this issue every time. For most illegal employees, working illegally doesn't mean you don't have a SSN, it means you don't get the benefits of it.

They can ride that robot back to where they came from!
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 16:05 UTC

I NEVER reply to these types of posts but I had to take the time in this case. "Undocumented" is the politically correct way of saying “Ill-freaking-legal”!!! I’ld like the take the keyboard that I used to PAY my INCOME TAX with and break it off in the @$$ of anyone who wants Federal money to cover an Illegal anybody to do ANYTHING other than go directly to jail or possibly back across the border. If you want to donate $ so d@mn bad, set up a fund to help support the d@mn border patrol!!!
The irony here is that they created an underwater robot. Is this what they used to get into America?

Anonymous (IP: ---.nc.us.ibm.com)
by Jack on Thu 7th Apr 2005 16:15 UTC

Wow, IBM has some brilliant employees.

Haha
by Kon on Thu 7th Apr 2005 16:17 UTC

"The illegal aliens are being exploited, and it is tantamount to modern day slavery or indentured servitude. The workers are not subject to worker's compensation, OSHA safety regulations and worker protections that LEGAL workers are, nevermind the fact that they do not receive fair wages."

I'm going to spell things out because you seem to have trouble comprehending - i-l-l-e-g-a-l. Don't expect the law to be on your side if you don't get benefits that are extended to l-e-g-a-l citizens. I love how people act like helpless victims when it comes to this stuff - get a spine. There was a conscious decision made to enter the country illegally - shut up and live with the consequences, or go through legal channels like the rest of us did.

RE: KON
by ? on Thu 7th Apr 2005 16:19 UTC

I agree with you

I'm not defending them, read my earlier posts.

Racism is the idiots response to everything...
by slash on Thu 7th Apr 2005 16:22 UTC

It's kind of funny but a liberal always ends up shouting racism whenever you disagree with them. Anyways, for all the liberals out there, explain this:

Question 1:
If a country can only afford to bring in x amount of immigrants, and y amount of immigrants want to come in where y = 100000x, how can you set up a fair system for people coming into the country?

Question 2:
If a country has deemed minimum wage at a certain level, and this certain level is deemed to be the lowest amount someone can make without living in poverty and driving the living standards down for the nation, why is it ok to pay 1/6th of that to illegal immigrants and what kind of effect does this have on the person or nation?

v Simple Math
by Cindy on Thu 7th Apr 2005 16:40 UTC
RE: Racism is the idiots response to everything...
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 16:43 UTC

No amount of problems you might have however real or imaginary warrants having laws which deny basic human freedoms based on skin color, geographical location at birth or any other arbitrary parameter. All men are created equal.

v i never had thought ...
by ubuntupr0n on Thu 7th Apr 2005 17:17 UTC
A realistic approach...
by JZ on Thu 7th Apr 2005 17:26 UTC

Well, millions of immigrants, legal or illegal, are here, and won't go anywhere(*). For the US it will be extremely risky to create a whole pariah social class, with no way to education/upward mobility access to health. If those brilliant kids see that playing by the rules and excelling don't bring them rewards but frustration and racist condemnation, they are going to be very angry. So, for the own good of this society, open opportunities to them. Give them residence permits and let them go to College, to them and to all of the "illegals" that are studying and working hard. Tell your representatives that. Open this country in an orderly way, because in 30 years, this country is going to be brown, very brown, like it or not.
(*) Unless you really believe that mass deportations, jailings and executions are the answer.

v Monkeys
by Gryzor on Thu 7th Apr 2005 17:28 UTC
Re: Monkeys
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 17:35 UTC

No, you'll find that the "so called engineers" at MIT built a device that completed more underwater tasks than any other entry.

And illegal immigrants would be lucky to land a job at Pizza Hut. They're much more likely to be working fields, cleaning toilets, and cutting grass. High school kids and poor uneducated people pad the food service industry.

Eight trips to the U.S. and you still don't know anything.

potential
by Jon on Thu 7th Apr 2005 17:38 UTC

I'm not gonna add anything new but this was a great story about some exceptional kids who are dealing with the hand they are delt. It would be very sad if their potential was squandered.

Not geniuses
by Anon. on Thu 7th Apr 2005 17:42 UTC

Genius? Hardly. A brilliant high-school student would take the time to figure out how to become a legal citizen so that they could qualify for citizen benefits. Assembling pieces of machinery under water does not make you a genius. I would be more impressed if they could figure out the legal process for citizenship. And no, I don't want my tax money spent on criminals.

v @Anonymous (IP: ---.dialup.mindspring.com)
by Gryzor on Thu 7th Apr 2005 18:19 UTC
Stick to the truth..
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 18:22 UTC

What the crap in the world is "undocumented"? It's ILLEGAL ALIENS, not immigrants. Sure, these kids may not have had the choice to come to US except to follow their parents, but what kind of crap is allowing them in public schools and letting them compete in these academic events? When my parents applied for student visa for me to attend MIDDLE school, they were asked to pay for the tax money normally would have paid by the "legal" taxpayers.. $3500!!!! That's almost what my parents made in a year in the poor country. They paid it and worked hard to pay for it. And since I was in school legally, I was able to study hard, get good grades, get scholarships and loans to put myself through high school and college. Then when it came time for me to get a job, I spent almost 4 years and over $20000 in legal fees so I can get my green card. Now I'm a taxpaying resident in the USA, actually making enough money to support my family back home and have a family of my own AND support this country that gave me the opportunity by PAYING my taxes. It just sickens me that there are people who support and advocate a system that would send the message "look.. so and so sneaked across the border and they gave him money to go to school and you don't have to pay for anything.. we should go too."

Non- White Racists
by Smartpatrol on Thu 7th Apr 2005 18:28 UTC

@Jose
Hey you US citizens, residents or "white people", how you like name you yourself.

I personally call my self an American NOT German-American,Irish-American, Dutch-American,Swiss-American nor Native-American all of which are titles i can use.

Also, Your skin color in a fair world don't matter for anything, when you will learn it?

This is not a fair world retard haven't you learned that yet? My skin color does matter by no choice of my own i had the misfortune of being born as the single most descriminated Race/Sex combination on the planet..the White male. Yet i don't bitch about it all the time and sit around holding pity parties for myself nor do i feel anyone owes me anything like i see many so termed "Minorities" doing

I for one believe all anglo-saxon's, native or not, should be deported back to their respective countries. They, white people, have encroached, mooched, and stole land. Stealing is still illegal, no? Pilgrim get your bags, you're going home!

Your right! <sarcasm> and Italy owes me slave reparations for eslaving my ancestors during Roman occupation of what is now Germany and Switzerland. </sarcasm> Do the human race a favor and don't reproduce.

Wow the reaction to this story is really awesome. I'm also against illegal immigration. How about you going back to Europe you nazis, racist bastards? But before doing that return California, Texas, New Mexico, etc to Mexico.

So the can promptly extend the Mexican third world shithole?

Then apologize to all native americans for all the stolen land and the murders your ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT PARENTS did.

I am sorry your civilization could not adapt properly to world changes :_( and that my ancestors that were farmers turned the land you weren't using into a method to feed the worlds hungry people.

These continent belongs to native americans and blacks.

Your right there a alot of Americans of African and Native American decent that pay taxes and have a vested interest in America

You stole the land from them or you brought them here against their will. I guess I really don't care about your taxes...

Okay then we have a prison cell for you.

Its amazing to how racism to most here means White people against everyone else. very scary...



@Phil for new zealand
by Smartpatrol on Thu 7th Apr 2005 18:31 UTC

Because it is full of bigots with a complete lack of knowledge on historical context.

Did YOUR ancestors get permission to immigrate? Possibly, more than likely they just immigrated anyway. Shot a few natives and claimed the land. Hypocrites.

I would be proud to have Can-Do folk like these young men settle in my country.

COME TO NEW ZEALAND, you're too good for the States.


You have no room to talk! you guys made a whole people extinct some of the native new Zealand tribes. Ask anyone in your country how they feel about the "Blacks". Hypocrite

Mexico Should Help These Kids
by Sean on Thu 7th Apr 2005 18:39 UTC

This is a great story and I feel for these kids, but the in a time when our technology jobs are flowing out of the US at an ever increasing rate and corporations demand cheap labor and open borders should we really reward illegal immigration?

You can't understand the government's studied disinterest in illegal immigration without looking at the Free Trade at any price crowd pushing our trade policies.

When goods and services flow freely across countries without restriction, labor costs, will find an equilibrium, lower for American workers and higher for workers from Latin America. That means you may lose your high-tech job to India, or your low tech job to illegal aliens, and your children will face murderous competition for mind-numbing low-tech jobs because our elected representatives have made it profitable to to move jobs offshore.

I have nothing against Latin Americans, but I have real problems trading the financial future of America for short term economic gains by P&G, HP, GE, IBM and a host of other companies who no longer consider themselves to be American companies, but world companies.

You may not feel so magnanimous when you realize that politicians and corporations are coopereating to increase stock prices no matter the cost.

We're paying the cost of illegal immigration and our children will pay the price.

I suggest Mexico sponsor a project for these kids.

Socialism
by Smartpatrol on Thu 7th Apr 2005 18:41 UTC

Stop being so god damn selfish over there, and embrace socialism for the better good of all Americans.

There would be a civil war in America before European style Socialism ever exists in the US. I am sure you wouldn't want that

No inmigrants to USA??
by bsdero on Thu 7th Apr 2005 18:43 UTC

Yes... you don't want "illegal aliens" in USA. OK. But.. the money? How about the money?

Mexico has a stupid government, and this government allows all that Mexico-Americans business man getting more and more rich and the whole people in Mexico getting poor. All that richs has the control in Mexican economy and politics. Look for yourself:

http://www.amcham.com.mx/

How do you explain that only 10 mens has all the politics and economy and fate of 100,000,000 of habitants in their
hands? Yes, in Mexico there are many money. The money is not distributed between all the working people. The richest just use the politics, economy, and religion, so thay can... steal?.. all the money that they want, living from the welding of the poor and paying a very low wage.

Yes... Maybe you, american citizen are just wonder
"why in the f*** Mexican people allows that??"

I would be very happy with a second revolution. A change of laws, something more just for all people here. Getting some from that 10 richest guys and do something with that money.
But just imagine what would happen:

The USA will send inmediatly your marines, to impose your government, business and politics paid by USA government in "liberty and democracy" name and Vs. "oppresion and tirany". Just like your done with Cuba. Or Nicaragua.

And guess why? Cause your government will protect all your McDonalds, CocaCola, BurgerKing and many many business that you have here. Your government has very fine business oppotunities in Mexico. So, you will protect the Mexican government from a Revolution or the like. How would yo do yer great business without the support of Mexican government?

Illegal aliens? It is just a secondary effect of actions from the Puppet-like Mexican government driven by American Government.

Re: Jose by Anonimous
by Jose on Thu 7th Apr 2005 18:57 UTC

Dear Anonymous (IP: ---.dialup.mindspring.com):

"What our ancestors did so that we exist where we exist has no intrinsic value upon the mores of today"

Exactly, that boys are under 18, and what their parents did isn't their fault.

Historically when pilgrims and any european came there was a law in the country, as you know native north americans has their laws, they respected nature, and it was god, and the people that arrive and build USA didn't respect that. "Just like now".

Very true
by Smartpatrol on Thu 7th Apr 2005 19:08 UTC

Mexico has a stupid government, and this government allows all that Mexico-Americans business man getting more and more rich and the whole people in Mexico getting poor. All that richs has the control in Mexican economy and politics.

Very true so how can we help you change that?

The USA will send inmediatly your marines, to impose your government, business and politics paid by USA government in "liberty and democracy" name and Vs. "oppresion and tirany". Just like your done with Cuba. Or Nicaragua.

Huge difference my friend what you are talking about is communist insurgents. I as an american i would be all for Mexicans standing up for whats right and fighting(peacefully preferably but not required) to improve the situation and well being of its citizens how can we help? Just don't walk down the crooked path of Neo-Socialism.

RE: SmartPatrol
by bsdero on Thu 7th Apr 2005 19:24 UTC

>>Very true so how can we help you change that?
You can't neither must help us. This is something that we as mexicans must fix.

>>Huge difference my friend what you are talking about is >>communist insurgents. I as an american i would be all for >>Mexicans standing up for whats right and fighting(peacefully >>preferably but not required) to improve the situation and >>well being of its citizens how can we help? Just don't walk >>down the crooked path of Neo-Socialism.

And what if Mexican people want to follow the neo-socialism? If it's better for all Mexican People, why not? Cause that isnn't Ok for you?

The capitalism is the best.... when you lives in USA or are rich. ;)

The fault of the media
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 19:43 UTC

The article is obviously written in a way that portrays a fantasy come true kind of feeling. Its more like a fiction story provoking readers to think a certain way then its news stating facts. Now a days, your dog chewing a bone can become the next american idol by the media and your neighbor's dog speaking 7 languages is nothing more than just a pet without the coverage.

Genius? While I do think they have worked hard and maybe talented individuals, their accomplishment does not even come close to the term Genius in my book.

Legal/Illegal Aliens? Its one sensitive topic but I have to say i'm against illegal immigrants. Everyone wants a better living standard for themselves and their family, but if everyone is doing it the illegal way then there will only be chaos. And i especially dislike the media coverage of some particularly touching individual cases and applying to everyone that might have some similar status or experiences.

Illegal Immigrants Contributing to the country? No doubt economically they do contribute, but i believe the cost for them is just as much of not more. I just recently find out that they get free health/dental/vision for free or cheap too at communities clinics. How they do that i don't know, but i do know somebody is paying for it. On a side note, I pay thousands in healthcare coverage alone yearly and i get crappy coverage.

Final thought. I have nothing against illegal immigrants but i do not support any form of aide for them whether state or federal. Illegal is unlawful and laws need to be upheld in any society. If individuals want to donate i have no problem, who am i to say what you can do with your own money. But any government fundings are for its citizens and legal immigrants.

just my 2 cents.

bsdero
by ? on Thu 7th Apr 2005 19:58 UTC

bsdero, apparently a Mexican has posted the most accurate and honest post of the 302 here.



hypocrites
by zxt on Thu 7th Apr 2005 19:59 UTC

My guess is that all of those who are against these bright people
and are for deporting them are all mediocre americans who haven't built an underwater robot that beats top US universties, and are mostly jealous. C'mon people, stop being idiots, the US benefits from these bright "inmigrants", and the US is a nation of inmigration. All of you are inmigrants, except the native americans. And you didn't come to the US with a visa. Most contributions to the US have been done by bright inmigrants. And they do contribute. Some americans are so hypocrite as to say they're against illegal inmigration, and yet give jobs to illegal inmigrants, like that republican senator.

re: zxt
by ? on Thu 7th Apr 2005 20:05 UTC

Let them become citizens and they will have my utmost respect. The bright immigrants you speak of, became citizens.

@Gryzor
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 20:11 UTC

The only crime around is the "I am the best" attitude that most US of A citizens expose. Just because "your" country is the #1 power, that doesn't mean anything AT ALL.

Actually, I think it means we are the number one power. Sorry if you're having trouble dealing with that. You really should not go out of your way to insult me and my fellow countrymen just because you have some sort of inferiority complex.

Now as far as these kids are concerned, I have the utmost sympathy for them and their plight but the immigration laws are there for a reason. Should start taking the intelligence quotient of a defendant into consideration during a criminal trial? Should smart people just get a free pass? I think not.

sadfsadf
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 20:25 UTC

These people who are against these students are probably rush limbaugh listeners

Re: smartpatrol
by Adam on Thu 7th Apr 2005 20:25 UTC


My skin color does matter by no choice of my own i had the misfortune of being born as the single most descriminated Race/Sex combination on the planet..the White male


You must be joking...

Mexican immigrants can be drafted, if nessacary, to fight in the United States Armed Forces; you do not have to be a citizen.

Many Mexican illegals do pay taxes, and their children should atleast be allowed to attend public school. I am not for wanton violation of immigration laws, but I feel they do deserve some rights afforded to citizens specifically, the right for an education.

Personally I did not think of this as a race issue, but a common-sense issue. These high-school kids out engineered university students from the most prestidgious engineering school on the planet. They obviously deserve some sort of higher education, whether it is in Mexico or at MIT.

Hahah.
by Jack on Thu 7th Apr 2005 21:04 UTC

You guys should read Tim Wises' (http://www.timwise.org/), "White Like Me : Reflections on Race from a Privileged Son", book. It's really interesting and gives you an insight to what it's like to be an American white.

If I were white, I too would probably be a rabid Mexican^H^H^H^H^Himmigrant^H^H^H^H^H^Illegal immagrant hater. It's this thing that white men get off on trying to feel morally superior or somehow civilized to their fellow man. These same men however have no qualms about hiring illegals, buying "illegal" drugs, or fighting illegal wars.

To tell the truth I for one would never do business with IBM or hire "SmartPatrol" after reading all the mess that has gone on here ... it's truely pathetic.

v agree with mercedes
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 21:08 UTC
payback
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 21:16 UTC

Most of the people who come from these countries, like nicaragua and salvador, come because their countries were blown into pieces by "strategic" wars by the mighty US. So I guess, it's like they're returning the favor. The US interfered and put in brutal dictators in those countries, driving them to poverty and chaos. So much for legality.

v O narrow minds...
by Jose on Thu 7th Apr 2005 21:20 UTC
hmmm
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 21:26 UTC

The US is racist, they break international laws, like when invading a country illegaly, and they torture too, like in Abu Giraf. And nobody is held accountable for that. So much for legality.

Re: agree with mercedes
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 21:29 UTC

Most grants are need-based. There are many that are meritoriously awarded, but they are certainly not the greater in number.

You people are all arguing against straw men. It doesn't matter if immigrants, or illegal immigrants are "taking jobs." They're in the U.S. contrary to its immigration laws, and as such they're never going to obtain the respect of the citizenry.

And that people support this practice because they feel that people from the U.S. are racist or selfish is retarded.

Being an illegal in the U.S. is not a picnic. They get shit jobs where they're exploited by selfish people that actually want them here illegally and support both political parties in preventing tight control of immigration or immigration policy reform. If one of them is is lucky it gets to be the nanny or groundskeeper for some rich family, and if not it gets to pick fruit or work like a mule.
They don't get good health services, and end up needing ER care that both costs everyone more and may be too late to prevent permanent damage. They get to live in constant fear of having their families deported. They get to watch their children miss out on opportunities.

And you support this casual, poorly-regulated, second-class lifestyle with specious reasoning. Even though it breeds a segregated class of society, undermines national security, and causes border states economic trouble. Even though it probably breeds resentment among some for legal immigrants.

For the most part I don't think many of you actually give a shit about these people. I think you just have some disdain for U.S. citizens or Caucasians that is both childish and not particularly helpful.

re: Limbaugh listeners
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 21:45 UTC

"These people who are against these students are probably rush limbaugh listeners"

Heh... Actually, I am a hardcore environmentalist, which most associate with the left. And guess what? A nation cannot protect their environment while at the same time allowing unrestricted immigration.

RE ;  Well
by Manik on Thu 7th Apr 2005 21:50 UTC

Well, you could use some beeps in your posts. Maybe you wouldn't be moderated ?

actually
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 22:07 UTC

yes I would, they don't like me here.

I call them out, but no one knows because they delete my posts and ban me when I do.

Why should I beep anything, my rights under supreme court ruling allow me to drop the f-bomb any time I want.

@Jack and Adam
by Smartpatrol on Thu 7th Apr 2005 22:09 UTC

Mexican immigrants can be drafted, if nessacary, to fight in the United States Armed Forces; you do not have to be a citizen.

Yes Legal immigrants i served with some myself whats your point again?

Personally I did not think of this as a race issue, but a common-sense issue. These high-school kids out engineered university students from the most prestidgious engineering school on the planet. They obviously deserve some sort of higher education, whether it is in Mexico or at MIT.

I did not bring up the race issue others didi just made some personal observations and clarified a few things. The do deserve to be rewarded for their achievments. If they want to attend college in the states they need to go through proper legal channels like every other foriegner that goes to school in the states does! Becasue these kids are from a country that borders ours they deserve preferential treatment over someone from India? Iran? Germany? Turkey? sheez people think. If i were a brilliant person from India for example(there are quite a few) i would be seriously pissed.

[i]To tell the truth I for one would never do business with IBM or hire "SmartPatrol" after reading all the mess that has gone on here ... it's truely pathetic.

First off my opinions are my own and have nothing to do with IBM or any company i work for. Second there are reason we have laws if we bend them and twist them just to get a warm fuzzy from time to time then what we would have is called anarchy. I am all for people coming ot this country to pursue something better and i will be the first person to hold out my hand to help anyone that wants to do it THROUGH PROPER LEGAL CHANNELS. I have friends that have done this one of them was from croatia to him its was one of the greatest things becoming an American after what he went through in his home country with the Serbs. Stories like the topic of this thread spit in his and his families face and that pisses me off to no end. Third if you were in a position to hire i am sure i would be passed over based on some affirmitave action quota that you would have to fill no matter what my qualifications are.

@smartassspatrol
by ZXT on Thu 7th Apr 2005 22:28 UTC

"sorry if your people did not adapt to change" by smartpatrol.
If by "adapt" you mean massacring them and put them in reservations, then yes, they didnt adapt. would you have adapted?

if they are asked to leave...
by zxt on Thu 7th Apr 2005 22:35 UTC

Then US companies doing business in many, specially underdeveloped countries around the world, extracting resources, money, oil, etc, and destroying the enviroment of those countries, should also
pack up and leave those countries, since most of them got there through illegal contracts with shoddy crooked governments in those countries, and most of those governments were placed by the US, so.
Inmigration whether "legal or not" is good for the us, if a global market economy and complete open free trade(meaning US companies extracting resources in those countries) is good for those underdeveloped economies, as the US likes to say through their mouthpieces, ie. the FMI, the world bank.

interesting
by zxt on Thu 7th Apr 2005 22:40 UTC

There was a few years back a story about some dude who wanted to apply for a job as a police officer in the US, and was told by the recruiters that
he was "too qualified" for the job, because he was too smart and would probably get bored by the job, and that he would quit soon after getting the job. He filed lawsuit, and the ruling was against him, because the law does not contemplate discriminating "smart people". So the law maybe should be amended, since it overrules all common sense.

americans
by asdfasgag on Thu 7th Apr 2005 23:05 UTC

Those from the US, also , shouldn't call themselves "americans", since they're not the only ones from "america". South Americans then should call themselves "americans" too. And those from central america, and the carribean. Just like "america" should not only
mean the US. "Gringos" is a more appropiate term for you.

RE: bsdero
by Anonymous on Thu 7th Apr 2005 23:29 UTC

First of all i want to say that i'm not Mexican, but i am a legal immigrant turn citizen not too long ago.

Two main arguements which i pick up from posts are 1)that these genius high school kids defeated the smart people representing the best of the best tech university, MIT. To me, because they are from MIT doesn't mean that they are smarter than others from even community colleges. If they are indeed smart doesn't mean they can't make simple mistakes. The article hardly mention the complexity of each of the robot design. ESL students produce better reports? why not? All it takes is lots of proofing and revising by others an F paper can easily be an A. While MIT students are more than likely to overlook this and concentrate on the technologically advanced aspects. I know people with 4.0 GPA and they are dumb and i mean really dumb. They talk like they know the world and socialize with intructors like close friends. When it comes to actual work, they speak with fancy terms that bearly have any relevance what so ever relating to the project. Yet someone with like 2.0 about to be kick out of college posses talent and skill beyond my understanding. Why they do so poorly in college i don't know. But my point here is that those kids might have potential but its more like plenty of luck to win that competition. Based on that one incident and label them as genius is simply out of line, anyone truely believing that should seriously consider higher education for themselves. In addition, i believe most individual have their own strength and skills, given the right opportunities they can all excel in what do best.

2nd agruement was that USA/White male racist/discrimination etc. Well, true that i agree all of the above exist, but which country doesn't. No matter which ethnic group, all those apply more or less but none should go as far as to label whole ethnic group base what the extremist says or do. Despite being a citizen, i don't show patriot blindly. Myself believe that USA is too into other countries internal affairs constantly using reasons of human rights/torturing/terrorism/corruption/whatever fancy word the government got. USA like any other coutries are also messed up in their own way. We pretty much work on the buddy buddy system despite having glorious laws on equality and bla bla bla. Alot of people do think they are superior due to be american and pride themselves unrealistically while constanly criticizing others. But nonetheless, politics is a game and the USA is a major power both economically and militarily plus excellent PR which denies any wrong doing and accuse every other nation not on our ally list as evil. Any nations could easily be recognize as a friendly nation simply by presenting themselves to Washington as their Bi**H.

My 2 cents got carry away, anyways,illegal immigrants should all be treated the same and not get special treatments on individual bases. The government didn't pay for my education, why should the illegal immigrant get aide. USA have its goods and bads but if u live in USA u get to criticize others and defend yourself arrogantly...isn't it great to be in the USA, why many people want to come here, illegally if neccessary. And for those whom argue the illegal immigrant hold shitty jobs, have to think about them not having a job or even shittier jobs in their native countries.

my multiple 2 cents

L.A.W.
by well...it's just me on Thu 7th Apr 2005 23:29 UTC

" Taxation for education is theft, no matter what size of majority is in favor of it.."
well - the taxation itself is a kind of theft in a first place, but the one we all agree to; what is important is that it works; too bad for you if you don't like democracy

"If I break into FBI computers, should they give me a job?"
if you were good - why not? - it would be better for u,them & all of us if u wouldn't go to jail (it olso cost's money, wright?) - and we could benefit from your talent instead

"do you know why the statue of lady justice has her wearing a blindfold??"
justice IS NOT law ; law ought to bring justice to reality - wheather it succeds remains to be considered

law is for people to obey, but you have to remember also that law is for people in the first place ; it ain't sacred - people made it, and _sometimes_ when the law just obviously doesn't work properly maybe people should be more resilient...
however if you choose not to - send those kids to Poland - we gladly welcome them - they'll be Poles in a matter of days, even if not leggally

Uh okay
by Smartpatrol on Thu 7th Apr 2005 23:33 UTC

"sorry if your people did not adapt to change" by smartpatrol.
If by "adapt" you mean massacring them and put them in reservations, then yes, they didnt adapt. would you have adapted?


was trying to make a historical point. My ancestors were enslaved and killed by the Romans. They eventually went back and sacked rome. Some of my other ancestors took part in the last major indian uprising in the United states that being a sauk indian uprising near Rock Island Illinois. I don't condone what happenend to the Native Americans i think it was a horrible thing but its happened all through history over and over again by different people. Its not something i would participate in modern times but who am i to judge those in the past who felt compelled to do such things. If we are going to play this game of "wo is me persecution" i would like to point out that out of all the peoples in the new world the middle and south american peoples Mayans etc.. got screwed over the most not by anglo-saxons but by the Spanish.

Re: @Jack and Adam
by Jack on Fri 8th Apr 2005 00:00 UTC

I never said you worked for IBM, I was refering to another poster. You can judge alot about a person/business by the company they keep, and I would not like to be affiliated with extremist from either wing. Like anything else in life there isn't a one size fits all solution for all the problems that come up, one needs to be pragmatic as opposed to shooting from the hip with comments like; "OMFG!!1 Illegalz!" or "OMFG!!1 U r teh genius take my rupiez!" take things on a case by case basis.

OSNews as of late has deteriorated to name calling and the such. I should have known on the sort of thread this was going to be, just by reading the first two post.

Lastly I appologise if anyone took offense to any of my comments, but that's how I feel, and I hope that some of the comments I made were of some use to someone.

RE: Alright, Wally, where's the robot???
by Wrawrat on Fri 8th Apr 2005 00:54 UTC

That's pretty much what I have noticed. The bone is there, but the meat isn't.

I guess nobody cares how they beat the MIT since they are too busy slinging shit to americans. I mean, it is an excellent opportunity to evacuate all this accumulated angst/stress. And of course, it's just easier to label every american citizen with the typical redneck stereotypes to blame them for all their problems (google "Blame Canada!"). It's cathartic!

Then again, it's nice to see that people at the other side of the ocean are not that different from us... I mean, they are proud, elitist, not really civilised... ;)

I'm against helping illegal aliens
by Anonymous on Fri 8th Apr 2005 01:04 UTC

Great! More of my tax dollars going to support people who come to this country. We already give them free electricity, food stamps, and welfare. Now, they want a free college education?

What about all the poor people who live here in America? I think its time we start supporting Americans instead of all these foreigners.

Re: L.A.W.
by Anonymous on Fri 8th Apr 2005 01:21 UTC

If you want to absorb the U.S.'s illegal immigrants into Poland, don't put the economic burden on the U.S. to send them there. You can pay to have them brought to your country, where I'm sure your populace will be ecstatic to receive them.

What is it about jobs “Americans wont do”?
by Praveen on Fri 8th Apr 2005 01:27 UTC

Americans don't refuse jobs. They wont work for substandard wages or work conditions.

People who hire illegals are unscrupulous characters who exploit human misery.

v Illegal immigrants should go to Europe.
by Praveen on Fri 8th Apr 2005 01:37 UTC
Illegal is Illegal
by Anonymous on Fri 8th Apr 2005 01:45 UTC

Illegal is Illegal. There is no suger coating it. You can't play down the fact using statments that they are "Bright Young Men"
More like "Bright Young Frauds".
I would like to have their title stripped and them to return to Mexico post haste. My ambition now is to see that happens.
I respect those that work hard and do the right things in life. If I were to move to another country, I would apply to be a citizen there. Not unlike these cheats who walk across the border and say, "Here I am, give me your money". That's like a robber coming into a gas station and robbing it. That's againest the law and so are these illegals.

RE: @Gryzor
by Anonymous on Fri 8th Apr 2005 01:56 UTC

> Actually, I think it means we are the number one power. Sorry
> if you're having trouble dealing with that.

The problem you have is that you really think that US is number one power... it's really funny (or maybe not funny at all).

USA is relatively small nation 300mln (in usa they use bln) and when you change your country into gettho you will soon see how hard is to compete with EU, or much bigger China.

You are currently number one in economy and propably your army is number one too, but let's think about this for a while...

Imagine for a while your economy without Eastern Europe, China, Japan, Mexico.... than you'll see that most products from US companies are not even developed in USA.

And I'm sure that current situation will really change pretty fast. For example - IBM sold it's PC group to Lenovo - company from China.

Your economy depends on oil... but you almost don't have your own oil.

I wonder how your economy could look without oil from Kuwait, Iraq or Wenesuela.

And now about army... sorry to say this but your army can fight only with really small and weak enemies.

You love freedom? You want democracy all over world? Go on and attack China... We'll see how 1 300 000 000 will cover US with their hats.

And another stupid thing is that your country is able to win war with Iraq but when they win they have no idea what to do with this "freedom" they created in destroyed country.
(they thought that Iraqi people will welcome their soldiers with flowers :-) )

BTW you could look at Human Development Index (United Nations) your conutry is 8-th. Norway is leader.

Anyway go on and close borders more tightly, start another war and you will soon see that your country will lost it's "number one" mark very fast.


v Re: RE: @Gryzor
by Praveen on Fri 8th Apr 2005 02:11 UTC
no !
by gnomesocks on Fri 8th Apr 2005 02:14 UTC

No freebies . Everyone works for their money . No more immagrant and illegal freebies . Sorry .

@Anonymous (IP: ---.e-dev.tele2.pl)
by Wrawrat on Fri 8th Apr 2005 02:16 UTC

You could just have said "I am jealous of your conditions so I'll bitch you while making you dumb". I know many american friends and they are definitely not ignorant. They are fully aware of what you are saying. Unfortunately, they are completely powerless because of the current political/corporate establishment. It will probably get saner once the baby booms are out... That might be too late, though.

The US is currently the number one power. For how long? History will tell. But you will have good memories once it becomes China, trust me. Judging by their interal policies (censorship, human rights, Taiwan), it won't be a switch for the better.

hmmm
by gnomesocks on Fri 8th Apr 2005 02:20 UTC

Any country can lose the ''number one'' mark .

Stop being so jelious . I used to never think this was true about the residents of other countries concerning usa but wahat a complex you guys have .

Dont go and cry about it .. ahhaa ;)

''inferiority complex'' I agree now .

Btw , Illegals harm any country and i am not going to give up my country cause you europians would love to see it fall ..Good luck with trying that . You will fail in any attempt .

new power
by Anonymous on Fri 8th Apr 2005 02:28 UTC


In about 50 years, the US will no longer be a superpower.

RE: hmmm
by Anonymous on Fri 8th Apr 2005 02:58 UTC

> Btw , Illegals harm any country and i am not going to give up
> my country cause you europians would love to see it fall
> ..Good luck with trying that . You will fail in any attempt .

1. And we got this again - you think that "illegals" are bad while I think and I'm pretty sure that they aren't.

Why? Because 01.05.2004 - 10 new countries joined EU, they citizens were "illegals" in "old" EU countries for years, and now they can work and settle legally in any EU country.
People in UK, Germany expected that they will see hundreds of thousands of hungry and angry immigrants that will ruin their countries... nothing happened.

Currently I earn about 2-3000 usd/month - I could about twice in UK but believe me I prefer to live where I got my home, family and friends. And I'm pretty happy with this.

So, I think that US could open borders and there could be problems for month or two but believe me that not all Mexicans wants to drive cabs and wash toilets in US.

2. We don't want US to fall, we just want US to understand that they really are not "number one" and it's not important who is - we all have strong relations, we need each others and we don't need to compete all the time. We just don't want US to start another war near our borders. You can fight on your own territory with Canada or Mexico - but don't start wars near our homes.
And we wan't US to be less arrogant and selfish - that's all.


Re: hmmm
by Anonymous on Fri 8th Apr 2005 03:35 UTC

> And we got this again - you think that "illegals" are bad
> while I think and I'm pretty sure that they aren't.
>
> Why? Because 01.05.2004 - 10 new countries joined EU, they
> citizens were "illegals" in "old" EU countries for years,
> and now they can work and settle legally in any EU
> country.

Illegal immigrants undermine the economic and security interests of the nations to which they enter. If you were illegally entering other European countries prior to being allowed to be a member of the EU, you were doing just that. Poland joined the EU and with that its citizens gained legal recognition by the other members that would permit them to have lives within their borders that someone entering illegally from a non-member would not. There is a difference in the life one leads when one is invited into the property of another, and when one invites themself.

Many European countries know that; they generally have less than open-armed immigration laws, and haven't exactly broken down my door to let me partake in their social welfare systems. There are countless Africans living in absolute Hell, and not a single nation has taken upon itself to open its borders to all of them to bestow upon them the kindness of socialism and the benefit of their educational infrastructure.

RE:
by Rodgeman on Fri 8th Apr 2005 03:41 UTC

I live in Arizona and believe that illegal immigration is illegal. But just for a moment let's put them thru college. Every technology good paying job I have had requires a background check. Even if they get a college degree they cannot pass a background check.
By the way my ancestors came thru Ellis Island legally by filling out the forms and paperwork over 150 years ago.
I have no problem with legal immigration. And yes I did yardwork and lower paying jobs to pay for my college. It inspired me to get educated and better jobs on my own.

These are the decendants
by sasquatch666 on Fri 8th Apr 2005 05:51 UTC

Of a race of people that engineered great pyramids ,vast aquaduct systems and had a calender the was every bit as accurate as the modern one.Somehow this news doesn't surprise me.I'll bet most people don't think of that when they think Mexicans.One of these days they are going to re-emerge from the dark ages of centuries of spanish oppression.The folks that are putting these kids down just plain make me sick and tired,and it's a shame I'm just one of the working poor here in the US that can't even afford to send my own kids to college,because I would gladly kick down some tuition money to these fine young people if I weren't!

Ehmmm.... you are all on-topic BUT ...
by Mat on Fri 8th Apr 2005 07:05 UTC

... This topic is so not os.news it isn't even funny. It is obvious nobody is going to convince anybody here.

Re: Sasquatch666
by ? on Fri 8th Apr 2005 11:49 UTC

The Mayan Calendar ends around 2012. That is the end of the world.

re: ? (IP: 207.140.180.---)
by tobaccofarm on Fri 8th Apr 2005 12:18 UTC

The Mayan Calendar ends around 2012. That is the end of the world.

The bible or how they call the club talks about 2013.

Illegal or illegalized
by geri on Fri 8th Apr 2005 12:48 UTC

1) No humam being is born illegaly.
2) a 6 year old kid is not reponsible for where it is taken by his parents
3) This kid did nothing criminal.
4) There exists a law which transforms a young man who never did anything criminal or amoral into someone who is illegal.

ME THINKS THAT LAW IS CRAP, NOT THE KID WHO "BROKE" IT.

This is why I usually refer to these people as illegalized, not illegal. They would be illegal if they start stealing or become criminal otherwise.

An other matter are adult immigrants, they are responsible for what they do.

hypocrisy
by Aviva on Fri 8th Apr 2005 12:57 UTC

Its fairly funny to me that I asked which countries would do otherwise (a few pages back) and I don't even get 1 response. We just keep getting flames against 'white Americans'.

Good deed, indeed
by Scorched Earth on Fri 8th Apr 2005 13:42 UTC

David Adams posted an article thinking about doing a good deed and it has turned into a citizen argument.

I was born in the USA so I am not too familar with all the loops and hurdles it takes to become a USA citizen. I would like to know how many years and how much money does it take to become a citizen. Is this price too high or should it be higher?

Now that ideal of the USA being the Big Melting Pot is gone and the words on the Statue of Liberty mean close to nothing, what kind of country does the USA want to be?

It is kind of ironic that the current administration preaches the wonders of freedom to other nations but is slowly closing doors in this country.

For those wanting to kick the kids out of this country, I hope you also want to kick their hard working parents out too. I would hate to think you were family wreckers.

"UNDOCUMENTED"???
by Uncle Hostile on Fri 8th Apr 2005 13:59 UTC

You mean illegal, right? Fuck your god damned political correctness. THEY'RE HERE ILLEGALLY. Don't sugar coat it.

v Statistics don't lie, we're taking over the world
by Malcom-X-X-X-Azatlan on Fri 8th Apr 2005 14:19 UTC
At those who named me
by Gryzor on Fri 8th Apr 2005 14:32 UTC

1st I'd like to say this guy who used my name in the subject saying that I thought that the US of A was #1 power. Truth is, I did say that and I still think that's true. However your post later addesses me as if I were in favor of it; I am not.

2nd: To those morons "gringos" who think that we as Europeans are Jealous, I have to laugh out loud in front of your pale fat Yanki face. You don't get it, do you? We don't like the US of A. We don't care. We don't give a shit. In fact we, as a Comunitty (U.E.) have everything we need. We're growing, we've got strong relations with China and we're adding more and more countries to the communitiy.
But what am I saying... you don't even know what a Community is, you don't even care about Canadians.

Enjoy your momentum, while it lasts. Unforunelly, the US of A either learns to behave in front of the world or will surely descend quickly in the list of powers.

The world is changing my mate... the Dollar will no longer mean anything (as it does now), the cheap labor will take over your industries. (and after all, you don't have a clue how a car should look like). You have bad habits, you eat shitty food, you have fat people all over around, your economy is sustained by monkeys, all you have is the Dollar, and why too much freedom to spend it in useless stuff.

The equation is simple. Maybe the USA will always be on the top ten list, however, you'll have to use all your "power" to commerce with yourself. No one will want to do anything with a nation so selfish.

And finally, tell me the truth, don't you hate the "huuuu!" yell they do in the movies... it's quite stupid. (Think of college or high school movies).

Yeah, I am jealous. Independance Day. Yeah. Get a life.

@Gryzor...again
by Anonymous on Fri 8th Apr 2005 14:58 UTC

2. We don't want US to fall, we just want US to understand that they really are not "number one" and it's not important who is - we all have strong relations, we need each others and we don't need to compete all the time. We just don't want US to start another war near our borders. You can fight on your own territory with Canada or Mexico - but don't start wars near our homes.
And we wan't US to be less arrogant and selfish - that's all.


Please point out which war we started near Poland. I'll be waiting patiently. Seems to me that every time we have deployed military troops into combat in Europe it has been to save ungrateful European pricks like you. They say that those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it. I'd say folks like you are a classic example. I'll go ahead and tell you "Your welcome" in advance, since my grandkids will probably have to fight another war to pull you Europeans out of trouble yet again...though I don't expect a "Thank you." When you have to come over here to pull our asses out of the fire twice in the space of 50 years, then we'll talk. Until then, you are just making yourself look like a fool. Americans really don't have any interest in remaining the worlds "official superpower" because we are confident that we can do whatever it takes to sustain ourselves in spite of any obstacles that are thrown into our path. I'm sure I don't need to remind you that our country was coming our of a deep depression and was in pretty dire straits economically, militarily, and socially back at the start of WWII, yet we still had the wherewithal to pull together and fight a two front war to save the world. Any future American decline will be temporary, you can rest assured of that. When the chips are down, you want the good ole USA on your side. Don't worry, we'll be there for you when you need us just like we always have been...in spite of your lack of gratitude.

Amazed
by Computer on Fri 8th Apr 2005 15:16 UTC

I am amazed about the bitterness and how close minded some people are.

I do agree that they should not be illegally in the US; nevertheless, these people do not understand how difficult is to even survive in some developing countries. I doubt these people have been in poor countries like Uguanda or Colombia.

In any case, these people probably are pretty dumb to not understand how valuable these type of kids could be for the US economy. These kids have to be pretty smart to beat students from top Universities (High school kids beating students from MIT university which, had much more money and resources!).

Many of the fastest growing companies in US were founded or co-founded by immigrants or people whose parents were immigrants (to say a few: Ebay, NVidia, etc).

You guys are full of it!
by Blakish on Fri 8th Apr 2005 15:23 UTC

First we are talking about helping some kids. This is not an issue on international affairs. You know why our world is falling apart we don't like to help other. And if we do we always expect something in return (wich is not too bad) as long as you don't cross the line. These kids have talent, they have worked as hard as you and just cuze you never got helped to make it this far, that doesn't mean that you can’t help. I think you guys who know that it's hard to make it thru life you should be the one helping more. This forum is becoming a battlefield for stupid ppl that don't know what they are talking about. I really don't care who is the best or the worst country. The bottom line is that you will find morons everywhere. I will just remind you all this is about the kids. Everybody in the States, Canada and all over America are immigrants. Mexican (Indians) have been in this continent longer than American, so for those stupid American that don't know anything about history SHUT UP, no one is better! I don't care what you say! Some of you might freak, some of you had a rough life. So, you made it so far that fine, help others. Yeah I am preaching you know why, ppl care only about them self. Human care about everyone, you know for a Nation to become stronger they need allies. America needs the world, and The world need America. For those that think i am wrong, don't be stupid. The American Economy is important to all, even those country you think that they are just crap. Well think about it, some of them make the shirt you are wearing. All I want to say is that, lets get on the topic. Let's help other! While we can... Please, forget about the color, forget about if they are here illegaly. America is a multi-cultural place, most ppl in the Army are not American, we all try to contribute to the well being of this nation. And if it's falling apart it's because of ppl.

Thank you!

Illegal?
by bsdero on Fri 8th Apr 2005 15:30 UTC

We didn't crossed the border. The border crossed us.

@Blakish
by Anonymous on Fri 8th Apr 2005 15:40 UTC

I will just remind you all this is about the kids.

You are absolutely correct. It is about the kids. I don't want my kids having to pay taxes through the nose to support the overburdened social programs that many illegal immigrants take advantage of.

America is a multi-cultural place, most ppl in the Army are not American

Please cite a source to back up this ridiculous assertion.

Get a clue
by Smartpatrol on Fri 8th Apr 2005 15:48 UTC

I wonder how your economy could look without oil from Kuwait, Iraq or Wenesuela.

The US does not import oil from Kuwait or Iraq and more recently not from Venezuela either. Most of our oild comes from Saudi Arabia and Domestic sources. If push come to shove look for alternate fuel sources and technology to come from America like so many other technologies such as the Computer you are typing on and the internet you are using to read this post.

BTW you could look at Human Development Index (United Nations) your conutry is 8-th. Norway is leader.

The UN? the most corrupt organization on the planet? their significance in the world faded long ago. Who cares what they say hopefully they will be looking for a new home soon.

Anyway go on and close borders more tightly, start another war and you will soon see that your country will lost it's "number one" mark very fast.


Good let someone else pay to police the world i am tired of paying for it. The EU can go ahead and be the world leaders from now on feed the millions of starving peoples in the world.

We just don't want US to start another war near our borders. You can fight on your own territory with Canada or Mexico - but don't start wars near our homes.

Last time i checked we prevented and contained the last war that was anywhere near Poland(Former Yugoslavia). A war that didn't in the least bit pose a threat to our national security. I don't remeber any Europeans protesting in the streets then about how we are killing babies and all that crap. Of course when we do conduct a war to protect our national iterests you people bitch about it.

And we wan't US to be less arrogant and selfish - that's all.

Your bias new media presents the US that way. I have seen it myself watching BBC and other German news channels. If you spent any time in the US you would know different. Don't make the mistake like so many other europeans that have a negative attitude about the US becasue they visited one major city like New York or Miami. Keep in mind that the US is big country with many many types of people including Polish people the source of so many of our Polish jokes.


@Anonymous (IP: ---.38.65-125.newsouth.net)
by Gryzor on Fri 8th Apr 2005 16:04 UTC

Please point out which war we started near Poland. I'll be waiting patiently.
And you will have to wait a lot of time, cuz I didn't say anything about that, you're mistaken, please review the post again or include the IP Address in case someone is using my name (gryzor).

And the US of A think that is doing a police work... for god's sake, WHO TOLD YOU THAT YOU HAD TO DO ANY POLICE WORK? Go, close your borders and STFU! Nobody is looking for the stupid police protection that you *THINK* that you're offering. (This goes for that Patrol guy).
THat's what CNN sells.
The world has been o.k. without anyone playing the rule of ´god´. And in any case, if there's someone needed for that role, is NOT the USA. You're obviously not doing a good job, you ought to get fired. Now go back to your Mc Donalds, and start frying French Fries (lamers!) You are SO closed minded and SO ignorant of international affairs and general culture, that you scare the hell out of you when Janet Jackson shows a tit in front of millions.. "Oh my god!!!! did you just seeeeeeee that??????? a TIT!?!?!?! "

The world is making fun of you, can't you realize that? The US is hillariouos, all they do is funny. Then you just rename "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries" because the French didn't want to go to iraq, for god's sake, not everybody is as stupid as the media citizen of the US of A as to believe that they were freeing a nation.

Idiots, the Think Tank™ in washington saw the need for the Fuel,now, or in the future, that's why the US of A is not spending their own reserves, but eagerly waiting to deplete the rest first. Organize a war, get control, fool the monkeys that live in here with freedom stuff, they believe, and go ahead.

To the average citizen of the US of A, things are as simple as: Give 'em credit, money, convince 'em that we're using their money to save the world, do not teach 'em anything about culture but ours, and they'll do what we want.

Too easy, just as I thought.

v wow... hahahahaha!
by Pounta on Fri 8th Apr 2005 16:04 UTC
@Pounta (IP: ---.fibrewired.on.ca)
by Gryzor on Fri 8th Apr 2005 16:08 UTC

LOL!

The World's Police: US of A.
by Gryzor on Fri 8th Apr 2005 16:13 UTC

Nice job with the world (sarcasm), now... what about doing something to your empty minded inhabitants that can only carry a gun and shoot.. shoot.. shoot... themselves.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/07/canton.shooting/index.html

Mat Groening was right.


Nuff said.

illegal immigrants
by desidaerius504 on Fri 8th Apr 2005 16:32 UTC

"tax-paying members of society instead of existing in a black market economy and providing little benefit."

Migrant workers do NOT pay into Social Security. They get to take all their money back to Mexico. In the meantime, they get to DRAW Social Security benefits. SOmetimes crime DOES pay, especially if you can find a minority class of some sort to belong to.

With all of the publicity, it is likely that the Immigration and Naturalization Services will locate them and deport them to Mexico. Then they can build robots in Mexico without the undeserved aid of our tax money.

If I were an illegal immigrant in THEIR country, I would expect the very same.

...
by Suryad on Fri 8th Apr 2005 17:54 UTC

Malcolm X needs to chill with those treating women as sex objects comments.A true gentleman does not flaunt. Obviously you are not one. Its jackasses like him that are ruining culture and civilization.

As for my opinion regarding the thread we are talking about, I cannot make judgement based on the information given. I think the law is not really blind since it is a man made construct and hence what is good for one persos is not good for another.

I am an immigrant myself, my dad has been in the software business for 20 years and he always knew and understood the benefit of being Western educated not because it was better than what we receive in India but because there are areas where a lot of other countries lack and that is fluency in English, well manners, presentation skills and a lot of open mindedness that is prevalent in this country. That is what makes this country great. We immigrated legally and now we have green cards and I just finished my CS degree from a Univ of California, and I even have a great American girlfriend whom I will most likely end up marrying. You need to realize that America is a great country because of all the freedom that is available here but it is not the only country like this. Yes there is a lot of hype, a lot of reasons why I can see now that America will not be the #1 country after a few decades.

It is true that if we look back in history white people have been oppressing the hell out of a lot of cultures. But they have also brought about the most innovation and technology. It is a scenario where to achieve something trampling over other people is required I think. My country was under the yoke of British rule once and while I am proud of my country I am not still holding a grudge against them. What has happened has happened. History is for us to learn and not make those same mistakes again. I could have stayed back in my country and received a far superior education, but just the way things are right now, and what I have seen go on with my dad because he was not American educated I decided to come here and study. I like America and I appreciate what it has given me, but I fear for people like Malcolm X and some people who are so uhh....violently patriotic that they make the mistake of isolating themselves and America from the rest of the world by making stupid comments. America needs the world, the world does not need America, I think that is the main point.

These kids in my opinion should be sent back to their country and thats all. The doors will be left open for them, maybe a counsellor provided who will guide them through the process of becoming a legit US citizen and thus protection provided for them but nothing more. I think that is fair enough.

RE:Suryad
by Adam on Fri 8th Apr 2005 20:16 UTC


Malcolm X and some people who are so uhh....violently patriotic that they make the mistake of isolating themselves and America from the rest of the world by making stupid comments.


Malcom X felt no sense of patriotism towards the United States, and nor should he have.

I have never heard Malcolm X make a stupid comment.

These kids deserve some form of higher-education, and I think MIT should step up. Anyone who dosn't feel this way is a fool.

Ask yourself the last time you built a robot, let alone one that can travel under-water and beat students from M. I. fucking T.

@notSoSmartPatrol
by Anonymous on Fri 8th Apr 2005 20:29 UTC

There are many illegals in the U.S. military. If you claim to have served, you should know this. Some of them have even had their families deported while they are in Iraq. I know a local family who's son was killed. His recruiter told him that they would see to it that him and his family got to be citizens -- didn't happen. They are all illegal immigrants from Sinaloa, Mexico.

RE: Get a clue
by Anonymous on Fri 8th Apr 2005 20:33 UTC

> The US does not import oil from Kuwait or Iraq and more
> recently not from Venezuela either.

Oh really?
Than take a look here: http://www.gravmag.com/oil.html#imports

Venezuela - 11%, MEXICO - 13%!, Iraq - 4%.

> Good let someone else pay to police the world i am tired of
> paying for it. The EU can go ahead and be the world leaders
> from now on feed the millions of starving peoples in the
> world.

Sorry but we all pay for it not only you. My poor country sent 2500 soldiers to Iraq (I'm very ashamed of it).

> Last time i checked we prevented and contained the last war
> that was anywhere near Poland(Former Yugoslavia).

And you propably are blind and cannot see that Iraq is much closer to Poland than to US.

> Of course when we do conduct a war to protect our national
> iterests you people bitch about it.

Ok, then tell me what national interests you protected?

How Iraq could threat you? Or maybe you found those imagined "weapon of mass destrucion"?

And we wan't US to be less arrogant and selfish - that's all.

> Your bias new media presents the US that way. I have seen
> it myself watching BBC and other German news channels. If
>you spent any time in the US you would know different.

1. Believe me, I don't want to go to US and I don't want to spend $100 to get visa...

2. Media = people if people feel this way then media show things in that way.

3. So again remember that we want to live in peace, "cold war" is over and you should learn how to live in peace.
Than you could open your borders just like EU did for 10 new countries and live in peace and symbiosis with Mexicans and another nations.

But propably your national interest is to sell more weapon and this is why it is so hard to live in peace for you.

> Keep in mind that the US is big country with many many
> types of people including Polish people the source of so
> many of our Polish jokes.

Those people are another story, they came out from communist country, they didn't know how to live in capitalism, they had nothing and as you propably know freedom is important but you need eat too.

So, I hope that now people that go to US from my country are not source of jokes.

But it's sad that you can make jokes from poor people, shame on you.

@Adam
by Suryad on Fri 8th Apr 2005 20:46 UTC

The Malcolm X I was talking about sorry...my bad he posted on this thread...Malcom XXX something like that was just a loudmouth punk. Hehe not THE Malcolm X.

RE @Gryzor...again
by Anonymous on Fri 8th Apr 2005 20:54 UTC

>Please point out which war we started near Poland.

Take a map and look where Iraq is, where is Poland and where is US.

And you propably don't remember but after your troops bombed Yugoslavia refugees still live in Poland - not in US.
And sure you didn't start this war but we had to help those people not you.

> I'll be waiting patiently. Seems to me that every time we
> have deployed military troops into combat in Europe it has
> been to save ungrateful European pricks like you. They say
> that those who do not study history are doomed to repeat
> it. I'd say folks like you are a classic example. I'll go
> ahead and tell you "Your welcome" in advance, since my
> grandkids will probably have to fight another war to pull
> you Europeans out of trouble yet again...though I don't
> expect a "Thank you." When you have to come over here to
> pull our asses out of the fire twice in the space of 50
> years, then we'll talk. Until then, you are just making
> yourself look like a fool.

Are you sure that you know history?
The only nation we really should say "thank you" are Russians (of course only for WWII not for this what they did to my country after WWII). Because we have graves of their soldiers on our land, not yours soldiers.

We can only say "f**** you" for Yalta.

> Don't worry, we'll be there for you when you need us just
> like we always have been...in spite of your lack of
> gratitude.

US never was on our side directly. Sure you helped to destroy Nazi Germany but you also helped them to go rich and strong again after war (Marshall plan).

And currently WE are on your side (2500 troops in Iraq)...

@smartpatrol
by mattb on Fri 8th Apr 2005 21:03 UTC

The US does not import oil from Kuwait or Iraq and more recently not from Venezuela either. Most of our oild comes from Saudi Arabia and Domestic sources. If push come to shove look for alternate fuel sources and technology to come from America like so many other technologies such as the Computer you are typing on and the internet you are using to read this post.

Fifty years ago, america was definately the tech leaders of the world. now? its still up there, but i would say japan passed you guys awhile ago.

The UN? the most corrupt organization on the planet? their significance in the world faded long ago. Who cares what they say hopefully they will be looking for a new home soon.

Actually, if you knew your history, you would know that america was responsable for both the creation, and corruption of the UN. Im talking about the america/britan/israel voting bloc that vetos more then anyone else. The UN was the ONE good thing to come out of WWII, and now the american right simply wants to dismiss it, and install themselves in its place.

Good let someone else pay to police the world i am tired of paying for it. The EU can go ahead and be the world leaders from now on feed the millions of starving peoples in the world.


I know americans are provincial, but you should realise the world hates you guys for policing the world. right or wrong is irrelivent, most people see you guys as the next nazi germany, and consider the US the biggest threat to world peace.

Last time i checked we prevented and contained the last war that was anywhere near Poland(Former Yugoslavia). A war that didn't in the least bit pose a threat to our national security. I don't remeber any Europeans protesting in the streets then about how we are killing babies and all that crap. Of course when we do conduct a war to protect our national iterests you people bitch about it.


you have got to be kidding me.

1) the reason america went in was because GWB convinced congress he had "irrefutable proof" of WMDs in iraq.

2) this has been shown to be false, the former director of the cia ended up resigning because of it, and even though there are a great many rumors of clandestine meetings with him and cheny, this has yet to be proven. but regardless, your own governament acknowledges it has no reason to be there.

3) there have been reports that the cia source actually came from reports passed on by german intelligence. there has also been stories that german intelligence warned the cia that the source wasnt exactly solid, although the people who were responsable for that information deny it. once again, ignoring the conspiracy theories, the source was bad and germany knew it.

4) currently, there is no reason for america to be in iraq, other then the pride of GWB. the people want the americans out, and it is turning into another vietnam. Kerrys exit strategy made sense (granted, its one of the only things he said that made sense), apologize to the global community you snubbed, as for peacekeeping forces to come in to establish a new governament. The fighting is not going to stop while american troops are on iraqi soil, and this is obvious to anyone who does not get their news from CNN.

Your bias new media presents the US that way. I have seen it myself watching BBC and other German news channels. If you spent any time in the US you would know different. Don't make the mistake like so many other europeans that have a negative attitude about the US becasue they visited one major city like New York or Miami. Keep in mind that the US is big country with many many types of people including Polish people the source of so many of our Polish jokes.

You are correct, there is a very anti-american bias in the world media atm. But america has violated international law by this illegal war, the very laws they pushed for in nuremburg. By all rights, the UN should have declaired war on america. Thank god they didnt, but it came damn close. Instead of german/japan/italy, it would have been america/britan/israel vs the world.

So yes, there is a strong anti-american bias in the world today. All it takes is looking at how the bush administration has acted on the world stage to see why. I think like most things, people get angry about things they dont fully understand, so you will get alot of uneducated insults about stuff that doesnt make much sense. Ignore them. But americans need to realise that if their governament is truley a democracy, they are responsable for its actions. This lack of responsability is why your governament is corrupt as it is (ignoring things that cant be proven, theres big juicy ones like the haliburton scandle, or the fact that you are currently occupying a foreign country because of a cia foobar.).

@Anonymous (IP: ---.e-dev.tele2.pl)
by mattb on Fri 8th Apr 2005 21:13 UTC

Its actually a little scary, america believes they were the main guys in WW2, even though they only showed up about half way through, and made blunder after blunder.

I am a canadian, and when I have travelled in europe, I have gotten nothing but respect. I never would have expected that, but people remember that while the russians were almost as bad as the nazis when they liberated a city, and the americans "liberating" a city usually left it demolished, the canadians actually managed to help the civilians, and went out of their way to not leave a trail of leveled cities in their wake.

By contrast, every american film, game, or book will portray them as the heros of WW2, with the brits kinda along for the ride, and as little mention of russia as humanly possible. They walk through europe like they own the place, and are astonished when they are met with anger. "What, how can these people hate us, we freed them from the nazis!".

@ mattb
by Manik on Fri 8th Apr 2005 21:23 UTC

I think it's wonderful, that capacity they seem to have in the USA to rewrite history in real time, and to not be bothered by facts, timelines…

v @Eugenia: Why double standards!
by Praveen on Fri 8th Apr 2005 21:30 UTC
v @Eugenia: Why double standards!
by Praveen on Fri 8th Apr 2005 21:33 UTC
v @Malcom-X-X-X-Azatlan
by Praveen on Fri 8th Apr 2005 21:38 UTC
Heard enough
by Smartpatrol on Fri 8th Apr 2005 21:46 UTC

Actually, if you knew your history, you would know that america was responsable for both the creation, and corruption of the UN.

I am well aware of the history of the UN was a good idea then but turned out to be a worthless endeavour.

But america has violated international law by this illegal war, the very laws they pushed for in nuremburg. By all rights, the UN should have declaired war on america. Thank god they didnt, but it came damn close. Instead of german/japan/italy, it would have been america/britan/israel vs the world.

Please! if you you believe that you are seriously flawed in the head. Illegal war whatever! The course of the United States will never be dictated by a group sniveling whiners that are more concerned about hurting someones feelings and protecting their own corruption then doing what has to be done for the betterment of the world(history will vindicate these times).

you have got to be kidding me.

1) the reason america went in was because GWB convinced congress he had "irrefutable proof" of WMDs in iraq.

2) this has been shown to be false, the former director of the cia ended up resigning because of it, and even though there are a great many rumors of clandestine meetings with him and cheny, this has yet to be proven. but regardless, your own governament acknowledges it has no reason to be there.

3) there have been reports that the cia source actually came from reports passed on by german intelligence. there has also been stories that german intelligence warned the cia that the source wasnt exactly solid, although the people who were responsable for that information deny it. once again, ignoring the conspiracy theories, the source was bad and germany knew it.

4) currently, there is no reason for america to be in iraq, other then the pride of GWB. the people want the americans out, and it is turning into another vietnam. Kerrys exit strategy made sense (granted, its one of the only things he said that made sense), apologize to the global community you snubbed, as for peacekeeping forces to come in to establish a new governament. The fighting is not going to stop while american troops are on iraqi soil, and this is obvious to anyone who does not get their news from CNN.


You conveniently left out the fact that there was 13 years of failed diplomacy and non-compliance with UN mandates that were put in place after the first gulf war with the condition of comply or else. You also fail to mention the oil for food program; better known as make Europe rich on the backs of Iraqi’s program. You need to come up with a better argument.

Its actually a little scary, america believes they were the main guys in WW2, even though they only showed up about half way through, and made blunder after blunder.

The worst blunder being wasting so many lives to liberate France.

I am a canadian, and when I have travelled in europe, I have gotten nothing but respect.

Becasue Canadians are America haters too you fit right in.

I never would have expected that, but people remember that while the russians were almost as bad as the nazis when they liberated a city, and the americans "liberating" a city usually left it demolished, the canadians actually managed to help the civilians, and went out of their way to not leave a trail of leveled cities in their wake.


Which is easy to say when Canada didn't do any of the hard fighting and dieing. Funny i don't recall Canadas contribution to rebuilding Europe after WW2 or defending them from the Soviet Union during the cold war. What about rebuilding Japan? the Phillipines? i wonder what country did that?



Let me start off by saying that I'm a white, native-born american, descendant from "Native American" blood and "European" blood. I do not believe it is accurate to call me an immigrant, as I was natively born on US soil. I received my citizenship as a residual right from the citizenship of my parents, who were also born on US soil. I don't think it's fair to say that "everyone in the US is an immigrant", this simply isn't true any more. Every human is descendant from humans who "immigrated" from Africa/Asia uncountable years ago, we have to draw the line somewhere. I'm sorry if this offends, but someone who was born in another country and moved to the US is more of an immigrant than I am. As a white american I would like to point out that I'm not racist, I do not support current American millitary efforts, and I'm not some fat lazy capitalist drinking the blood of brown people. I was born with my own position in life, and I have worked hard to make the best of it that I could, it is racist and prejudiced to say I have any particular obligations as a white american that others don't have. I don't oppress anybody, I give to charity, I am politically vocal on issues that I feel are important, and I resent anyone who would characterize me otherwise. If we are to achieve unity as a species we have to let go of old debts that could never be repaid anyways.

It is interesting how emotional an issue this is, and how clearly emotion clouds judgement on both sides of the debate. I totally understand both the desire to provide social services (including subsidized education) for all people equally, and the fear of supporting social leeches with these services without receiving any social benefit. The "ratio system" we have in the US is one of taxation - the higher up you are on the economic scale, the more you pay; the logic being that the more money you have, the more you benefit from society, therefore you should contribute more back to society.

There is an unfortunate problem in this system in that the wealthy are often able to manipulate the tax system to pay less, the people who most utilize free social services contribute the least to the economic pool, and the slack is made up by overtaxing the middle class, which leads to the middle class resenting the lower class. This problem is exacerbated by the presence of individuals who don't pay all of the required taxes by still benefit from social services. I have read the arguments in this thread that illegal immigrants pay "more than their fair share" of taxes, but it is my experience that most illegal immigrants (I have had a number of friends who were illegal, and have worked with illegals in construction trades) are paid in cash under the table in exchange for a lower wage or worse/illegal conditions. While I have no doubt that there are some illegal immigrants who pay in to Social Security and whatnot with no hope of reaping the benefits, this is not the general condition.

The US can provide social services for a limited number of people, this is only rational, we do not have infinite resources. Libertarians ( a political party in the US) advocate completely opening the borders and eliminating all free social services, therefore people would be free to come to the US and work, but would not receive free health care, education, etc. There is no workable way to provide free social services that would ensure the quality of life that is deemed acceptable by American culture for an unlimited number of applicants, there is nothing ethically wrong with drawing a line at a certain point as to who is entitled to these services, it is the ONLY way to provide such services at all.

That said, there is no reason why individuals should be prevented from contributing money to any charity or fund that they see fit. I for one would rather have more robotics engineers than another few fast-food servers. For those of you who don't want to contribute to this fund (I am one of these), no one is forcing you, but aiming resentment at these kids because no one paid your way through school is at best somewhat misplaced.

There's no simple solution to the immigration problem, and has been pointed out on this thread, there are conflicting interests in the US about the economic value of illegal immigrants. I just wish everyone would take a step back and try to see both sides of the issue, and relax the animosity a bit. Perhaps then we could begin to solve the problem.

off topic
by the slayer walks the earth on Sat 9th Apr 2005 00:29 UTC

Smartpatrol:
"Last time i checked we prevented and contained the last war that was anywhere near Poland(Former Yugoslavia). A war that didn't in the least bit pose a threat to our national security. I don't remeber any Europeans protesting in the streets then about how we are killing babies and all that crap."
and you're right - you've done well there ; it's a shame on Europe that we couldn't tackle with it by ourselves

"Your bias new media presents the US that way."
actually the "new" (?) polish media show you in a fairly good light - people from at least the WW2 perceive Americans as allies and are very grateful for what you did back then ;
but on the other side it's hard not to see your ignorance (especially about anything outside your country)- let's just say that when i was in highschool and one of the worst student in our school went to US on exchange program, after a year he returned with a local news paper (becouse no one would believe him otherwise) showing him as a best student of their school ; common mistake i find in Scintific American - reffering to USA as a "world" ; and from outside you really seam like arrogants - sorry to say
your bigotry doesn't look very good either (remember Schiavo?); the law execution? - how about claim for huge recompense from big company for not metnioning that the coffe is hot (well - i wouldn't figure it out by myself ;)
few of my friends actually were in USA for about a year, know what thay said when they came back ? - big disappointment

and about that war in Iraq - it was started without a real reason, but _maybe_ eventually it will become something good
as to Europeon part in it - France basic export product is ...wine ? - no... - guns! military industry ; and their disagreeing with GDB has nothing to do with fairness - they become arrogant and egocentric too ; thay (namely Chirac) have their mouth open widely, but when it comes to act....

IP: ---.e-dev.tele2.pl:
"The only nation we really should say "thank you" are Russians (of course only for WWII not for this what they did to my country after WWII). Because we have graves of their soldiers on our land, not yours soldiers."
WTF ? maybe we should thank them for the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact ? - for attacking as from back stating that it is liberating just after Germans crossed our boundaries ? that is blunt fucking LIE ; of course the red army fought with Hitler, but that was not from the beginning ; and Russians were perhaps even greater danger for Poland then the Germans.

and that is fact that W.D.Roosvelt and Churchill sold our country to this son of a whore - Jo Stalin - from what i hear - USA and GB then was most thankful for what Russians did with Hitlers army than what Poland did to prove it is worth independence.

This site
by Anonymous on Sat 9th Apr 2005 02:26 UTC

is worthless, yeah, lets bring in illegals and give them all sorts of shit while so many people that really need it live on the street. Change the world, send an illegal home and give a bum a buck.

RE: off topic
by Anonymous on Sat 9th Apr 2005 02:45 UTC

"The only nation we really should say "thank you" are Russians (of course only for WWII not for this what they did to my country after WWII). Because we have graves of their soldiers on our land, not yours soldiers."
WTF ? maybe we should thank them for the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact ? - for attacking as from back stating that it is liberating just after Germans crossed our boundaries ? that is blunt fucking LIE ; of course the red army fought with Hitler, but that was not from the beginning ; and Russians were perhaps even greater danger for Poland then the Germans. "

You are absolutely right but I said we could say "thank you" for what they did during war. For their fight with Germans - nothing more.

But I wrote this as reaction to those words:

> I'll go
> ahead and tell you "Your welcome" in advance, since my
> grandkids will probably have to fight another war to pull
> you Europeans out of trouble yet again...though I don't
> expect a "Thank you." When you have to come over here to
> pull our asses out of the fire twice in the space of 50
> years, then we'll talk.

And I think that we at least could say thank you to Russians - we have graves of their soldiers in almost every city - but say thank you to Americans? What for?


Anyway we had very important and emotional day today in Poland, And we all feel very proud to be Polish, but also especially today we think about peace, tolerance, human dignity etc.

So, now I'm really upset after reading all those posts form US "citizens" but I don't want to argue anymore if they don't understand simple things.

I just from today will cut any donations to any open source projects that are managed by US citizens. They just don't deserve to get my money.

@smartpatrol
by mattb on Sat 9th Apr 2005 03:24 UTC

I am well aware of the history of the UN was a good idea then but turned out to be a worthless endeavour.

The purpose of the UN was to prevent another hitler. This was, and alwas will be a good idea. The US has done what they could to invalidate that, and now is acting in direct opposition to them. This a bad thing.

Please! if you you believe that you are seriously flawed in the head. Illegal war whatever! The course of the United States will never be dictated by a group sniveling whiners that are more concerned about hurting someones feelings and protecting their own corruption then doing what has to be done for the betterment of the world(history will vindicate these times).


are you really so tied to your partisan politics that you cannot see this is another vietnam? it will be remembered in exactly the same way, one of the most brutal, drawn out, bloody, and utterly useless wars in history.

You conveniently left out the fact that there was 13 years of failed diplomacy and non-compliance with UN mandates that were put in place after the first gulf war with the condition of comply or else. You also fail to mention the oil for food program; better known as make Europe rich on the backs of Iraqi’s program. You need to come up with a better argument.


So basically, because of making europe rich, and not allowing UN investigators in, you see that as reason to invade their country? a war is a terrible thing, and must be done only in the last resort. to declair war is to basically say you lack the competance to resolve the situation in any other way, and have absolutely no time left to keep trying.

What you are giving me are low level republican reasons. Do you know why bush says you are there? Not because of failed deplomacy, but because you went in on false pretenses, and now cannot leave.

The worst blunder being wasting so many lives to liberate France.

Why would you say that? Because the french are so liberal, and you are obviously quite conservative? so basically, those who disagree with you on political matters should be left to die.

Its statements like that which make me question my longstanding policy of defending americans, while condemning their governament when speaking to people from other countries. In general, I find americans to be good and decent people. That perception has really begun to change though over the last two years or so.

Becasue Canadians are America haters too you fit right in.

I have many american friends. I believe that the american founders were some of the great revolutionaries in the history of the world. I believe your constitution (in its origional form at any rate) to be a true legislative work of art. I also believe that your current governament is in diametric opposition of your forefathers, and I believe the people at this point are caught up squabbling about such useless issues as gay marriage instead of trying to figure out how to fix your governament. I am most definately not an america hater, I have a greater respect for the ideals that built your country then you do.

Which is easy to say when Canada didn't do any of the hard fighting and dieing. Funny i don't recall Canadas contribution to rebuilding Europe after WW2 or defending them from the Soviet Union during the cold war. What about rebuilding Japan? the Phillipines? i wonder what country did that?


The canadian engineers were well respected in world war 2. our boys from newfoundland consistantly were in some of the dirtiest fighting, and we proportionally suffered some of the highest losses in the war.

Ill give you a bit of a history lesson to show you the difference. Every year, holland sends several hundred tulips to ottawa (our capital city). The reason for this is that the queen took refuge here during the war. She was with child, and when she gave birth, canada imported dutch soil so the future king would officially be dutch. Because of that, and liberating their country, to this day they send us gifts. If you happen to have a canadian flag on you in holland, you will be treated with an unbelievable amount of courtesy and respect.

This doesnt happen for americans. ever.

As for protecting europe during the war, supporting corrupt governaments (like the turks, who were the largest recipient of arms during the clinton era in exchange america putting missiles there, who then took those arms and used them to attempt genocide of the kurds) does not qualify as heroic. how about columbia, great ally of the states, and one of the top human rights violaters in the world according to amnesty international. what about saudi arabia, again, huge human rights violaters and one of the global hotspots for terrorists.

We didnt help rebuild japan, at the same time, we didnt nuke hiroshima. in fact, we just havnt nuked, period.

I really doubt I will reach you. I know people like you, on both the right, and the left, and reasoning with them is an exercise in futility. Hopefully though, I will be able to get some people thinking, reading, and researching. I wasnt joking when I said your forefathers were some of the great men in the history of the world, and I pray that someday, america reclaims the right and just governament of its past.

oh yeah
by mattb on Sat 9th Apr 2005 03:30 UTC

another comment on how canada is america haters. after 9/11 there were thousands of grounded americans who couldnt get back into the country. do you know that hundreds of maritime families opened their homes to total strangers?

Canada may not blindly support the american governament, just because americans do doesnt mean we hate you. It just means we wont kill for you without good reason.

Re: off topic
by Anonymous on Sat 9th Apr 2005 03:45 UTC

> And I think that we at least could say thank you to Russians
> - we have graves of their soldiers in almost every city -
> but say thank you to Americans? What for?

You could always thank them for preventing further Soviet encroachment into Western Europe, which certainly helped there be an economically prosperous European Union for your country to join. Or maybe spending the Soviet Union into collapse in a suicidal arms race. Or supplying the UK with aid prior to entering WW II that helped it hold out against Nazi invasion, which in turn helped keep German forces spread thin.

While people from the U.S. often have a misunderstanding of the significance of their contributions in WW II, and those made after, I think certain other countries like to trivialize its contribution. While you can certainly feel justified in flaming pompous and ignorant members of the youth of the U.S., disregarding and insulting the acts of the people that actually made a difference during the war by trivializing their contributions is about the most callous thing you can do. They did more than a little, even if they weren't as thoughtless with the lives of their soldiers as the Soviets, and didn't happen to leave them on your doorstep.

> So, now I'm really upset after reading all those posts
> form US "citizens" but I don't want to argue anymore if
> they don't understand simple things.

You really don't know the slightest bit about the U.S., and the longer you pretend to while feeling like you know some secret truth, the longer you'll find that its citizens don't care about what you have to say. There's really nothing more amusing than some arrogant person complaining about how arrogant the U.S. is, then babble about something completely irrelevant, and pats themself on the back for how enlightened their original position is.

> I just from today will cut any donations to any open
> source projects that are managed by US citizens. They just
> don't deserve to get my money.

Personally, I don't want your money. I think you're a pompous jerk, and if you want to cut off your nose to spite your face then feel free. You don't really strike me as the charitable type, anyway.

Re: @smartpatrol
by Anonymous on Sat 9th Apr 2005 03:52 UTC

> it will be remembered in exactly the same way, one of the
> most brutal, drawn out, bloody, and utterly useless wars in
> history.

I'm sorry. Just how many people do you think died in Vietnam? How many do you think have died in Iraq?
Also, out of curiosity, why is it that no one except the writers of MASH seem to even remember the Korean war?

Anyway, while people may babble about how useless Vietnam or the second war in Iraq were, they really will be a far stretch from the most brutal or bloody conflicts. And just being "one of" doesn't exactly convey much context.

As for one of the most drawn out, they won't even rank.

Lets see them make a "better lawnmower"
by Dick Hertz on Sat 9th Apr 2005 04:20 UTC

Do the right thing. Work hard and get paid. Once you get paid, pay of your tuition like the rest of America. Why do people feel "bad" for people who come from poverty? Everyone has the opportunity to make something for themselves if they work hard enough no matter where you come from.

omg
by robin on Sat 9th Apr 2005 10:33 UTC

astonishing to read how citizens in the US allow themselves to be divided. poor people fighting against poor people. a pity to see how this US-ideology (both dems as well as reps) have made you like this.

"I just from today will cut any donations to any open source projects that are managed by US citizens. They just don't deserve to get my money."
i don't think it's a good idea - we can't generalize like that - definetly not all Americans are like that - i am almost certain that their unwillingness so many times expressed in posts is partly becouse of their faith, that you have to obey the rules no matter what (it's somewhat related to their religion - i heard of explanations of american economy wealth - that is due to them beeing religious and patriotic at the same time - that makes them worh more efficiently...there is of course oil & lack of war on their land for many years) - and we here in Poland have long tradition of not obeying law and circumventing regulations whenever it's possible - haver this feature isn't of any value when we are independent, democratic, capitalistic country - maybe their wright that obeying law without hesitation is good, or maybe that is true only in America ; but still voices saying "i worked hard and didn't have any help - why should he have?" aren't one's that i could agree with - we say here in Poland - that this is our national virtue - that we behave like that (i don't have it - you can't have it), but i would never expect anyone from here to say that he will not help becouce he didn't get it either
and supporting the open source projects is definitely the way to go - don't give up on people that easy !

"The worst blunder being wasting so many lives to liberate France."
i agree on this one - you should help Poland during our uprising in Warsaw (200 thousand civilians killed) instead of helping them out only to have Chirac saying things i would never expect to come out of politics mouth ; and their (politics) hipocrisy about Iraq ; they would like to rule world without making risk that USA are willing to and without even powerfull enough army - pathetic

and as to differencies about war in Iraq - Europe has different experiences - WW II had much more impact on us than on US (6 out of 36 mln people in Poland were killed, total destruction of Warsaw and many other cities) ; and one more thing about American participation in WW II - it wasn't until Pearl Hurbour - was it ? and we have to thank You and mr prime minister of GB - winnie Churchill for Yalta and agreement on soviet occupation of our country for the next 35 years (it was not so bright president of yours - Roosvelt) ; George Kennan had sth to say about this (he died in march)
on Korea you are right - people hardly remember that, nonetheless - it was very important ; the same Yugoslavia (different scale)

I know this is totally off topic…
by Manik on Sat 9th Apr 2005 12:42 UTC

But, not being the first, I would like to say something about WWII ans the liberation of France. Since I'm French, I know my opinion will be automatically dismissed by some as the opinion of an ingrateful American hater, an arrogant French or whatever, but there we go.

Absolutely no country participated in that war to liberate France. Undoubtedly some individuals did it for that reason, and wanted it most than anything else, and most of these individuals were French, which is normal, and anyway the best way to have soldiers do what you want is to give them a noble goal, and that was a noble goal. But in reality, the Allied were at war with Germany, or better said the Axe (or is it Axis ?),and the goal was to totally defeat Germany to end the war. Hence, the necessity to invade Germany and have it surrender.

Now, you have the Russians coming from the east (and you want to beat them in the race. You must beat them). You need to open a front in the south, and one in the west. With your troops in UK, what choices have you ? The ennemy is in front of you. Where will you land your troops ? In Spain, a "neutral" country far south from the front ? In Belgium ? In the Netherlands ? The only choice was France, and was never debated (even the Germans knew that, and that's why they fortificated the french coast more than any other). Not only was there a geographical advantage, but a strategic also, since there was (even if some Americans contest its existence, or its role, and yes, I know, there were more "résistants" after the liberation than before;-)) a structured "Résistance". What was debated was "where in France ?", and how to surprise the ennemy. Anyway, France would have been liberated, once Germany defeated, by all means.

Now, don't get me wrong. I am not saying that France should not be grateful to the USA. In fact, France is grateful. To the USA, to Canada, to the UK, to Australia, New-Zealand, to the South-Africans, the Poles, Norwegians, and all those who participated in the liberation. The Americans, who tend to forget they didn't single-handedly win that war (and that they didn't fly to help the French or the English) would like to see a more evident gratitude (does that word exist ?). They have liberated France (with all the others mentionned above), but don't like it one bit when France show some independence.Their stance seems to be : "we have saved your butt, now we own your butt". They would have wanted France to blindly follow them, considering any dissent as unfriendly, traitorous. So, they ignored that France was helping (without discussion) them in Afghanistan, or dismissed that help as weak, useless, unimportant, and some declared that France was an ennemy, as if a friend, an independent friend, telling you "you're going right in the wall and I won't go with you" is an ennemy (I'm not discussing who is right or wrong).

Americans, I wish you the best. Iraqis, I wish you the best. World, I wish you the best.

New history?
by ? on Sat 9th Apr 2005 17:25 UTC

"ts actually a little scary, america believes they were the main guys in WW2, even though they only showed up about half way through, and made blunder after blunder.

I am a canadian, and when I have travelled in europe, I have gotten nothing but respect. I never would have expected that, but people remember that while the russians were almost as bad as the nazis when they liberated a city, and the americans "liberating" a city usually left it demolished, the canadians actually managed to help the civilians, and went out of their way to not leave a trail of leveled cities in their wake.

By contrast, every american film, game, or book will portray them as the heros of WW2, with the brits kinda along for the ride, and as little mention of russia as humanly possible. They walk through europe like they own the place, and are astonished when they are met with anger. "What, how can these people hate us, we freed them from the nazis!"."

Yes, the Candians really kicked ass at Dunkirk... Oh wait that's your greatest loss.

Ah, the Candians really trounced the Japanese... Oh wait, that was America. Wow, those Canadians really put up a hell of a fight against the Italians in 1943, oh wait, that was the U.S. again.


And for the absolute idiot who believes that "No Country participated in the liberation of France:" What exactly do you believe happened on June 6th 1944? Did you prefer the Vichy regieme? What was Operation Cobra for? How exactly did those Frenchmen defeat the Tiger and Panther tanks with no tanks of their own? And you call the US arrogant?

Re :  New history?
by Manik on Sat 9th Apr 2005 17:47 UTC

Oh poor thing. Don't you read ? I never wrote that no country participated in the liberation of France, I said that no country participated in that war to liberate France. That's very different. But since you seem to have understanding problems, let me say it (once again) differently : the goal wasn't to liberate France, it was to defeat Germany. France would have been liberated anyway, once Germany defeated. You should read my post again, and use some of your brain. That's my last word.

RE:
by JCS on Sat 9th Apr 2005 19:43 UTC

" and as little mention of russia as humanly possible"

Russia started that war on the same side as Germany.
They were not - EVER - the "good guys" in WWII.

RE: smartpatrol
by JCS on Sat 9th Apr 2005 20:00 UTC

"But america has violated international law by this illegal war"

What "international law" would that be? Do you even know what "international law" is?

"By all rights, the UN should have declaired war on america."

Considering the US is a Security Council member, hosts the UN, and provides most of the support for it, just how would THAT work?

"Thank god they didnt, but it came damn close."

No, it didn't. The world wasn't going to bring about its downfall to defend a murderous dictator who has violated ceasefire agreements and teh people in the France and Germany profiting off of him.

"apologize to the global community you snubbed"

Let me guess... We should apologize to France and Germany from stopping their profitable arrangement with Iraq....

I am continually suprised at how blindingly ignorant some people are....

Where is your compassion
by eimars on Sat 9th Apr 2005 20:25 UTC

With attitudes like this no wonder America is losing its competitive edge. You people have forgotten what made your country great. People. You have losted your compassion for others. The world is changing and without a base of people who are willing to world for low wages you will no long be able to compete. If you think you will be able to maintain your position in the world much longer without putting to use the people who are already in your country I really feel sorry for you. People are already getting turned off from going to your country. Your country was built on the backs of emigrants. Wake up people.

RE:eimars
by JCS on Sat 9th Apr 2005 20:57 UTC

"With attitudes like this no wonder America is losing its competitive edge."

So, we should reward people who violate our laws and commit fraud. We should give them free medical care, drivers licenses, welfare benefits and should allow ANYONE who wants - regardless of who they are and what their intentions are - to enter our country without even informing us of that.... In short, you want us to cease being a sovereign nation. Are you a member of the Council of La Raza? Support of Aztlan?

What's interesting is just how seriously countries like Mexico demand we open our borders completely, yet keep their's closed....

" Your country was built on the backs of emigrants. "

LEGAL ones are welcome. ILLEGAL ones are not.

I'm an atheist and I wouldn't consider myself patriotic. I typically think of the Federal government as corrupt, inept, and filled with idiots. A number of those inept, corrupt, idiots are also quite happy that people can enter the country illegally--it saves them money on nannies and gardeners, and helps them get contributions from Walmart, farms in California, and other such businesses. (Would anyone be surprised if some of their interest was from the illegal drug trade?)

I do however believe that the U.S. can and does have the power to legislate its borders and decide who can immigrate into them, and that people that undermine that legislation will be exploited and denied respect by the citizenry.

Re: Where is your compassion
by Anonymous on Sat 9th Apr 2005 23:34 UTC

People from the U.S. donate to foreign and domestic charities. The U.S. absorbs a lot of legal immigrants, and issues many student visas so that foreign students can learn in U.S. universities. A lot of open source contributors are from the U.S., and U.S. businesses employ a lot of prominent open source developers. A number of people in the U.S. study Chemistry and Biology so that they can do research to help everyone have enough to eat, have treatments for diseases, and otherwise increase the standard of living.

But people seem to feel entitled to everything. No matter how compassionate people from the U.S. are, it's not sufficient. Companies patent those discoveries and sell them, the U.S. charity per capita isn't high enough, we don't want people entering our country illegally because we're evil racists.

All countries are the result of immigrants. And pretty much all of them regulate who can immigrate to them, what immigrants can have and do, and no shortage of them are much less open than the U.S.

If you were..
by ? on Sun 10th Apr 2005 01:20 UTC

If you were to fine all companies or persons who hire illegal aliens in the USA 1 million dollars for each one, there would be zero problems with people crossing the border.

You wouldn't need a border patrol, if that money was instead spent on inspectors checking to see who was legal in Walmart or Sears.

Legal immigrants are more than welcome. Illegal sponges are not.

Re : New history?
by Anonymous on Sun 10th Apr 2005 14:31 UTC

> France would have been liberated anyway, once Germany
> defeated.

You REALLY should say thank you to Americans, Canadians, Poles etc. that THEY (not Russians) liberated France.

You propably are right France wasn't main goal, but for you it was important who defeated Germany.

And you were really lucky, we in Poland weren't.

Btw did you know that in US are Polish jokes and in Poland are French jokes ;) ?

Sample:

Question: What it is? One million men with their hands over their heads?

Answer: French army.

Keep warm.

@ Anonymous from Poland
by Manik on Sun 10th Apr 2005 16:18 UTC

Perfectly right.

Yalta was a mess. True, Poland wsn't lucky. Poland has never been lucky. The Poles have some reasons to be proud, for having survived, and for having developed a rich culture (btw, many French, especially in the north of the country, originated from Poland).

Wow ! The polish jokes about the French are not really different from the American jokes about the same. I suppose it has to do with WWII, and it doesn't do justice to the 80,000 french deaths (and the 40,000 german deaths) in the six weeks before Hitler's troops entered Paris. But why would a joke do justice to History ?

RE: @ Anonymous from Poland
by Anonymous on Sun 10th Apr 2005 17:42 UTC

Wow ! The polish jokes about the French are not really different from the American jokes about the same. I suppose it has to do with WWII, and it doesn't do justice to the 80,000 french deaths (and the 40,000 german deaths) in the six weeks before Hitler's troops entered Paris. But why would a joke do justice to History ?

Well sure but compare this:

During WWII Poland lost 6 028 000 people it was 22,8% of all Poles and 38% of our property.

Until WWII on each 1000 citizens died 220, compare this to Russia - 116, FRANCE - 15 (!) and USA - 2,9.....

So, I think that it is a kind of miracle that Poland is economically where it is now.

But it is absolutely off topic and we should end this discussion ;)

Although when I hear selfish and arrogant people from US so proud about their economy I always think "kill 22% US citizens, destroy 40% of their property, give them 50 years of communism and then we could talk about economy again" ;-)



No Thanks...
by mmp on Thu 14th Apr 2005 18:54 UTC

I'll be donating my money here instead:
http://www.minutemanproject.com/