This could be a decisive moment for the software market. Microsoft's big cash cow is the Windows/Office combo. If you look through the company's financial reports, you'll see that profits come mainly from Windows and Office. This means that Windows sales support the existence of other products and services. An unexpected drop in demand of Windows could cause a domino effect. At the moment this seems highly improbable because Windows desktop market share is over 90%, even though there is an increasing interest in MacOS X and Linux.
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Federico, I'm sorry to say, but I guess you'll be one sad fellow on april, 29th.
Not that I don't like your idea, though.
My bad, so why is Desktop Linux not ready for mom and dad again?
I expect we'll see a preview of 10.5 next year at the 2006 WWDC. So Apple will already have been showing off what's coming next by the time Longhorn is even shipped.
Now, if Apple could only get a bug in their ass and roll out some substantial updates to their stale powermac line. :|
I will not trade MS domination for Apple domination. I want sane OS market with a bit of MS Windows, Apple/OSX, Linux/*BSD and Sun/*IX.
Steve Jobs wouldn't even bring up a PC version of Tiger at a meeting. Nor would Apple executives allow it.
Apple hardware and software are symbiotic. This is the reason their products work so well.
Introducing the spam of hardware from PCs would break the great functionality and ease of use Apple provides.
Nice idea, but no.
Apple is a software company. There OS is there to sell their hardware, not the other way around. It woud be foolish of them to jump into the PC OS market with out producing PC hardware to keep the hardware profits going. And the move would piss of IBM, drop the sales of Mac hardware as people would run and get mythically cheaper Dells to run OSX and find out they need 3 times the RAM and a decent processor, people will try to run OSX on vodoo card and wonder thy quartz performes like a dog, and what will they do? complain to Apple. That is negative publicity they don't want and Apple will stuck in the same boat as Linux, vendors will not give them drivers so they don't piss off Microsoft.
Apple doesn't want to go down that route. They want to flog their shiny Mac hardware and they'll go to extreams to do it. (Like making an OS that kicks window's ass)
All round it a butyful dream but nothing more.
Another guy who is not in touch with reality. Mac OS X on PC is not gonna happen. As depressing as it may be, GNU/Linux is the only serious contender to Microsoft's desktop monopoly (don't get me wrong, I'm a KDE user myself and I love it). Linux is slowly getting there but it needs more polished, more influence, and more support.
Tiger dosn't run on x86 machines. Windows is a) user friendly b) well known already for sometime c) runs on any x86 cpu that you can get off the shelf. Tiger is a) user friendly b) somewhat well known but fairly new compared to MacOS before it c) only runs on Apple hardware. So in reality a switch from Windows to Tiger would require a big hardware investment not just a simple reformat.
Firstly, sure, Apple almost certainly keeps OS X able to build on specific configuration x86 hardware. It ensures the product is cross-platform but the effort involved in adding drivers for the bewildering number of x86 cards and chipsets out there would take years.
Secondly, look at the various predictions and trends. Apple is leveraging the iPod experience to let people know there's something better. They're not telling people to try Tiger or Panther, they're telling people to try Mac and the increase in Mac sales indicates that's where they're heading.
They've already given x86 users a cheap way to experience OS X before a big switch with the Mac Mini with the other Mac's finally offering good price/performance thanks to the G5.
If Apple didn't release OS X for Intel when they were in such a weak position before the G5 you can bet they're not going to now the Mac sales are picking up and they've finally got something good to offer.
Windows marketshare (where I live) is not dropping. Rather it is rising, now when people retire their old Novell systems that was popular here. They want standardised, easy to use client systems that everyone already is familiar with. Replacing Windows with Mac OS or Linux here and there goes against that.
But they would need to sell PC hardware then, because as we all know PC hardware sellers are very reluctant about not pre-installing an OS and even less pre-installing anything other than Windows
The easiest way to get an article with lots of hits and comments is to post Apple-Wintel flaimbait. Fanboys from both sided crawl out in droves to defend their platform of choice and to insult the other camp.
I would welcome MacOSX for x86_64 any day.Superior OS on superior (open)hardware carefully selected and assembled by me myself and i.
I'd love to believe what the article says, but it won't happen anytime soon, or at all that is.
This will not happen simply for technical reasons.
Sure, you could grab the BSD base of OSX and make it work on x86...What about that old PCI ethernet adaptor that I bought for $15. How about that sound card I have in my computer?
Fact is, there is way more hardware on x86 than mac that needs drivers. It's not happening.
What I'd really like is for Apple to push OpenOffice.org as a part of their product offering.
I think the biggest surprise will come once QuickTime 7.0 becomes more established over the next few months.
Apple know they've lost the desktop battle. But the war for the platform is still wide open as technology converges and culture evolves. Apple understands this. Microsoft only seem to care about market dominance, but this has led them to become as lumbering as IBM before them. I'm sure it won't be long before some innocuous upstart starts screwing with Microsoft from the inside ...
Competition may just give MS the bite in the ass they need. So rather than spending $200million for a Start Something blitz to generate fake word-of-mouth they will actually compete again. But right now, for as long as Windows OS ships on every new PC, and every business has to pay the CAL tax, what incentive does MS have to compete? The can survive very comfortably on inertia alone right now. Perhaps they will be taken by surprise indeed, just as MS displaced Novell. But I don't think they'll be surprised too much by Apple. Not unless the surprise is cool.
I'm also betting that Longhorn will not be as innovative as the effort to put a man on the moon, even though MS says the development cost is the same.
why should Apple waste time and money on OpenOffice when they can create native cocoa apps that will take better advantage of the frameworks and the OSX platform?
It is more likely we first will see:
1. Google OS
2. Adobe OS
And by the way. Linux will never make it unless it goes the Apple route and becomes a BRAND. We, users, are sick and tired of having to assemble, install and maintain the "Windows and Linux component-concept-chaos". We want computers that just work as a whole - like our automobiles & TV boxes.
Nerds are dead, Install orgies are dead, hardware upgrades are dead. These concepts belong to the past.
Times have changed
Nerds are dead, Install orgies are dead, hardware upgrades are dead. These concepts belong to the past.
Times have changed
So who innovates the MacOSX OS if nerds are so called dead?A lot of MacOSX dev's got their hands dirty by experimenting and performing the "concepts belonging to the past" amongst other things so you the end-user doesn't have to worry a bit.
There is no such thing as a "mom & dad" OS, if I understand that expresion as a metaphore for clueless, technofobe users correctly. Technically savvy moms & dads of the World forgive me - I know a lot of you who are definitely not clueless!
Besides, all users claiming to be clueless and proudly bragging about how despite their utter ignorance their preferred OS magically empowers them to accomplish the most complex tasks imaginable without actually knowing anything "about computers" are the same people who do it in narrow, repetitive way, with absolutely no tolerance if something "strange" happens. I call this the Elephant Trail use of computers!
Nothing wrong with that, but you can have this sort of Elephant Trail way with virtually any modern OS, not just MS Windows. Hell, I even remember most companies 15 or so yrs ago had secretaries happily typing cryptic MSDOS shell commands to start whatever they were starting. If they not had them written on post-it notes, I could have sworn they were some sort of hacking wizards. Of course, once they got a mouse in their hands they immediately transformed back to std. clueless users blinking at Windows like that pumpkin carriage in Cinderella. After some basic training they were back in "hacking mode" 
) but God forbid somebody moved an icon on the desktop!!
Again nothing wrong with that - I am just saying there is no such thing as absolute user friendliness or a "mom & dad" OS - it depends on "mom & dad" and what they are doing!! Of course I am talking here office setups and those need intelligent sysadmins anyways, regardless of OS!
"Linux ? No, I don't think it could be called a desktop for "mom&dad". At least not yet. And there are various barriers to its widescale adoption in businesses."
Really ?
New Software run on old hardware , is cheaper , safer
and run on X86 and PPC :
Lets show the weakest link :
http://images.linspire.com/linspire5.0intro4-6-5.swf
lets show the rest :
http://www.lynucs.org/index.php?screen_type=1&screen_id=14040713564...
http://www.lynucs.org/index.php?screen_type=1&screen_id=19546620303...
http://www.lynucs.org/index.php?screen_type=1&screen_id=15327223504...
Can you be precise about whats missing ? Your inputs is needed ;-)
Well, he was assuming neither mom and dad had a PhD in computer science. Now if they do, it's pretty ready.
That said, Linux Desktops (KDE, Gnome) works pretty well once installed. Not much harder than windows. If you really need never to add any hardware and don't have a root account you can use it without risk to do word processing and such things.
Now.. having using linux for years (and nearly stopped recently outside servers) I can tell you that sooner or later, you'll be wanting to patch your kernel for something to work. Which then will probably break something else.
The day mom'n'dad can download a .dmg (disk image), double click to mount it and drag the app inside to the Applications folders and it works, then I'll get a linux desktop for my parents.
Lets show the weakest link :
http://images.linspire.com/linspire5.0intro4-6-5.swf
--
haha, that running guy from Linspire reminds me of the little guy in AIX's SMIT. I wonder if he falls on his face too when click-n-run can't resolve a dependency? 
So who innovates the MacOSX OS if nerds are so called dead?
They become SW-workers (ala Auto-Workers). The rest, i.e. we users, have quit. We do no longer meet in the "computer garage" over at Joe-XP every other Saturday morning fixing, maintaining and installing. We are bored stiff to death by computer related issues. We only want to USE computers, and most of all we really don't want to know what's under the hood. Computers just have to work, no more no less. Work, just work.
"The day mom'n'dad can download"
What ? download ?
Buy Hardware :
http://sub300.com/info.htm
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=3504708
http://www.linspire.com/featured_partner/featured_partner.php?sent=...
http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/
Buy the box online :
http://www.linspire.com/lindows_storefront.php?own=no
or at a store near you ...
I would welcome MacOSX for x86_64 any day.Superior OS on superior (open)hardware carefully selected and assembled by me myself and i.
That's the problem. The people here can be trusted to actually build a machine that won't take out the power grid. The problem is with all the fans of the bottom-of-the-barrel hardware that are going to kludge together the cheapest of the cheap, and then run OS X on it in the supposed conviction that "they said it would run on an Intel" and then be surprised when it doesn't.
Tiger on Intel would probably finish off Apple hardware. Steve is not going to let that happen. Phil Schiller would probably walk out the door the day before he announced it.
To say nothing about Jonathan Ives.
It's a pipe dream. Rid yourself of the concept, it's not happening. People here will have the knowledge to force OS X to be installed on an Intel [or AMD] but it's never going to work like it's supposed to and I don't really have to say what Apple is going to offer in the way of support, do I?
I've seen some screenshots of the cow. This will change drastically as they near the Gold Master stage. Still, I'm not bowled over by what I've seen sofar. There MUST be more to it than that or a great many people are going to be tangibly disappointed.
It's going to be a steep learning curve, again, it still looks like it's been built in a 1950's Kolchoz in the Sovjet Union. It does nothing for me.
I think they have meetings in Redmond where they say: "Anyone has any ideas about what features we should put in Longhorn?", then they clunk a lot of stuff in their interface builder wizard, attach code to it and go "Voila!".
I want to see the good things in Longhorn, I really do. The "everything I do is perfect, everything you do sucks" argument is rubbish, everybody here can argue way better than that.
I've only seen a few screen shots of the cow of course, there's tons of other functionality in the system no doubt, but if it's a reasonable representation... it's just not there. Longhorn compared to OS X is simply an embarrassment. What it does, and very effectively so, is to show us exactly how far ahead OS X is. There is nothing on the planet today that is on that level of sexy.
Or at least the author must think so to put out such a troll of an article!
"I wonder if he falls on his face too when click-n-run can't resolve a dependency? "
dependency ? you click on the software you whant everything is done automatically , you dont even need to mount it , upgrade are the same thing click on software it upgrade and install itself.
There is a new GNU/Linux version with thousands of improvment and complete and fully useable release every month from many Distribution :
www.distrowatch.com
and unlike proprietary software and BSD and Windows , everyone share improvments ;-)
what you saw 1 month ago is already old ...
I was making a joke. I've never used Linspire and I don't plan to as long a Apple stays in the business of making computers.
I do use AIX at work though, and the guys does look very familiar.
What ? what ? instal ? thats so Apple or Microsoft ;-)
You dont even need a Hard drive anymore to instal it :
http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php
"as long a Apple stays in the business of making computers. "
Note to self : for up and coming Hardware war : take out Apple by buying whats lef of it.
The real key to widespread adoption of any operating system by the masses ist pre-installation.
As long as it is more expensive to buy a bare laptop than one with windows pre-installed, most people will stay with what comes shipped because they are not knowledgeable enough to install the software.
Ease of installation is no issue in Linux any more, at least not more of an issue than MS Windows. The fact that Windows does not NEED to be installed is it's key advantage. Once this monopoly gets weakened there will be a level playing field.
Just imagine, you go to a computer shop and want to buy a new desktop computer, and the clerc asks you:
"Which Operating System do you want: Windows for 50$ without support, Windows for 250$ with support, Linux for 5$ without support, Linux for 80$ with support, OsX for 30$ without support or OsX for 200$ with support.
Advantage of Windows is that most people have it, Linux also comes with lots of useful applications included, OsX has the best user interface"
You decide, and the clerk tells you:
"No problem, please wait while your system is copied to your harddisk."
You go from the shop with the system of your choice without having to worry about drivers and installation at all.
I am quite sure the operating system sales numbers would be much more even than today.
Man, you have to have a PhD in distributions before you can even begin to select one to download.
"It gives you tons of choice!"
Of course it does. How are you even going to sell that to a corporation if they don't know there is a roadmap for further development of the flavor of the month?
Not dissing Linux, but between Mandrake, Ubuntu, Suse, Linux, BlackHat, WhiteHat, RedHat, TopHat, FcucktHat and LookAtHat, how on Earth am I supposed to know which of these is even close to being a nice and quiet, stable and reliable unix distribution?
Help me, man. I'm scared!
Apple would have to talk to hardware manufactuers to get drivers ready and that would have leaked already.
Apple will continue to try to hold on to it's 2.5% marketshare and Linux distros will continue to try to put together a desktop operating system with the cobbled together mess of various apis, libraries, and random utilities that comprise a Linux operating system.
OSX on x86 is the only hope for a decent desktop, mainstream, Unix operating system, but it's probably not gong to happen. Apple needs to sell hardware
Linux will inch along at a snail's pace in it's penetration of the desktop market, but it's too factionalized to make a big impact in this decade for mainstream use. Desktop linux's development model is way to chaotic to make any impact. There's not even a standard toolkit.
" a PhD in distributions"
just the willingness to try ...
"how on Earth am I supposed to know which of these is even close to being a nice and quiet, stable and reliable unix distribution? "
All of them are ... GNU/Linux
There is no real real reason for running OS X86. Even if Apple ports some of its own Apps, there would be virtually no apps at all. No apps no users. As simple as that.
Steve will not allow OS X to run on the cheap Walmart PCs. That's not his style. Apple earns jut too much from ther Hardware.
Hell already froze over when iTunes for Windows came out. That is not going to happen again.
Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat - Dream on bullwinkle! And to the person that asked:
Q. So why is Desktop Linux not ready for mom and dad again?
Because it doesn't work with new computers and that's a fact! I won't even mention the lack of support for new hardware, someone say sound card, or was that graphics card I heard, either way, until hardware makers start writing equal drivers for linux as they do for MS, linux will never be ready for the mainstream desktop!
All tiger is going to be for the majority of computer users is a sneak peek at the features they'll be getting in longhorn when it ships 15-24 months down the road.
OS X while very nice does not have what it takes to overrun the market simply because of the company behind it.
GNU/Linux while getting better is still not close enough to windows in terms of usability and software availability to win over the masses.
I am waiting for a few other surprises:
** iTunes for Linux: Linux is growing up, and getting serious. Linux users today are neither nerds or leet kiddies, but perfectly normal people. People who want to buy music online. None of the current mainstream music shops caters to Linux. If Apple suddenly brought up a top-quality Linux port of iTunes (and Quicktime 7), they could take over huge parts of the music market on Linux before the competition catches up. If they ever do.
** Strategic alliances with business software makers. Apple must get into the corporate and government world. If several big prodiucers of corporate software suddenly promoted Apple, things could get very interesting.
** Video store: Once Quicktime 7 is out, it is time for a movie store in iTunes.
PS: OS X on Intel has been done to death. It won't happen, and that is good. MS has permitted the huge junkheap of low-quality hardware to grow unchecked. They catered to cheap customers who will buy junk and then moan endlessly about how bad it is. Part of Apples appeal is that they refused to compromise on hardware quality.
8% of the planet own a desktop computer
16% of the planet as acces to computer and the internet.
12% of the desktop world wide run GNU/Linux
7% run Apple
72% run Microsoft
9% run the rest
we havent started the hardware war and your already scared ...
3 days until tiger is unleashed, 15 days before all its improvments are included in some form GNU/Linux
Apple just won't release OS X for x86. Ever. It won't come, it would be stupid for them.
And, apart from that, when someone installs OS X on his PC, Apple's market share won't increase, but its install base. The market share increases when more people buy Mac OS X, regardless of whether they install it afterwards or not.
Q. So why is Desktop Linux not ready for mom and dad again?
Because it doesn't work with new computers and that's a fact! I won't even mention the lack of support for new hardware, someone say sound card, or was that graphics card I heard, either way, until hardware makers start writing equal drivers for linux as they do for MS, linux will never be ready for the mainstream desktop!
Hardware manufacturers shouldn't be writing drivers for Linux/BSD/whatever, they should document their hardware, i.e. give the specifications such that the Linux/BSD/whatever folks can write their own drivers for it.
One thing that needs to be remebered is that Microsoft Office is a international standard (OpenOffice 2 is look great btw) and if Apple release Mac OS X for x86 or x86_64, then Microsoft will probally cut off Office for Mac OS X as soon as you can say Windows!
I think we'll first see the release of Duke Nuke 'm Forever.
What about Windows on PPC like their embedded thing on that wannabee-console marketleader xbox360. Might that bring PPC to the masses and what will it bring for intel and amd?
I wish OS X would be avalable for x86 someday, but I don't believe in it.
On the other hand, there's the Darwin-x86 project.
Maybe it could be done...
Taken from http://developer.apple.com/darwin/:
The Darwin 7.0.1 Installer CD will boot and install Darwin on Macintosh computers supported by Mac OS X 10.3, as well as certain x86-based personal computers.
Tiger has already been announced, for Macs only.
If Apple was to release Mac OS X for x86, everybody would just use the hardware they already have or keep buying PC hardware to use with Mac OS X and so Apple would be left selling only an operating system and applications killing most of their hardware business. They would be left competing directly against Microsoft as an operating system vendor, with Microsoft already dominating... not a so great idea.
They also probably don't have the resources to support all the PC hardware and bring Windows developers to develop for Mac OS X instead - or in addition to - Windows.
In fact they have already addressed the problem of widening their potential customers base. Not with Mac OS X for x86, but with the Mac mini. It allows people to keep most of their PC hardware and get Mac OS X. It also lower the entry price to Mac OS X.
They have ported QuickTime and iTunes to Windows, they could also port iWork or iLife to Windows if they would like to. I don't see them doing it but that would make more sense trying to sell the OS for x86.
Mac OS X can certainly easily be ported to x86 but that's probably so that they can switch to x86 in THEIR hardware in case their current processor supplier wouldn't be practical anymore.
I don't see them releasing Mac OS X for x86 in general.
I used to know a person few years back when OS X was first released. He claimed that he had a bootable CD of OS X running on Intel hardware. Now I never saw this bootable CD, there are three things that made me believe him.
1) OS X is a product of NeXT which once ran on x86 hardware.
2) The kernel and the Core Foundation runs on x86 hardware.
3) iTunes looks excactly the same as the Mac OS X version.
Now I think that Steve will never release the OS on intel no matter what. And one more thing. What is wrong of being second or third in popularity ? I love Apple hardware and software as it is.
I don't see why so much hope about apple getting Microsoft's market... How can we have the right of choive if the leading company controls both software and hardware? If they are not open to work if other companies?
Don't get me wrong, I don't like MS way of doing things... But I believe Apple's way is even more scary...
(Yeah, that'll be so good if the "capital is THE important thing" side of these companies aren't so strong and monopolistic and we could really choose between their products and also have real standards...... Well, we can dream...)
never have the letters R.O.F.L. ever been so relevant.
They have 25-30 BILLION in reserve. That will last a wee bit I would think.
That's funny, Ubuntu supports way more of my hardware out of the box than windows. I'm not saying my parents could install either one, but unless they made a SATA floppy driver the windows installer wouldn't even be able to find the hard drive! NIC same story, sound... Onboard and Audigy2 both automagically installed by Ubuntu, half an hour and three reboots in windows.
My mom and dad are as computer illiterate as anyone. (In fact, my old man just made the switch to a $10 Pentium from his Tandy 286.) FACT: Whatever's on the computer, they're gonna use, and not have a problem. They'll be able to click the word processor button and the internet button. That's all they have to do, right?
Desktop linux is just as ready for my P and M as windows XP is... certainly windows95. The thing is, nobody installs a new OS. Regular people don't do it. They might upgrade, maybe, but overall they're going to eat what they're given and say thank you can I have some more.
Apple has committed itself to PPC and still has two, er, three platforms to care about (Altivec-less 32-bit PowerPC aka G3, Altivec-able 32-bit PowerPC aka G4 and 64-bit PowerPC aka G5). I can't see 'em extending support to yet another platform which is binary-incompatible with the rest (see BeOS).
Does anyone remember the Apple Clones? Somewhere around OS7 or OS8, Apple let certain companies build Mac clones. This did not help Apple one bit. Some of the clones were cheaper than an original Mac but sells didn't do much for Apple's market share.
Even though OSX is a better operating system, I do not believe selling it on cheap hardware would help Apple.
Steve Jobs likes Apple providing the whole experience. When you buy Apple products you are buying a Way of accomplishing tasks not just hardware and software.
I am wondering why Apple has not released a digital camera or video camera. iPod goes with iTunes. iMovie goes with XXX. iPhoto goes with XXX. Where is the Apple experience for those?
jobs would die before he let apple become a software company.
Apple can't compete with the big companies. Apple lost the OS wars, and they will lose the mp3player wars so they won't try to build digital cameras. That would be ridiculous.
Apple can't compete with the big companies.
Apple is currently the biggest laptop vendor out there. I guess dell isnt a big company, if apple can compete with them.
and they will lose the mp3player wars
you base this on a yearly increase of ipod sales?
That would be ridiculous.
yeah, redicules does come to mind...
I had high hopes for the G5 but I think Apple is losing ground again. AMD and Intel have now released dual core processors and Apple still can't get a G5 inside a laptop. They should just cut their losses with IBM and contract with AMD to use Opterons on the Macs.
> I am wondering why Apple has not released a digital camera
> or video camera. iPod goes with iTunes. iMovie goes with
> XXX. iPhoto goes with XXX. Where is the Apple experience for
> those?
I guess that the competitors on the camera market already have better established products than it was the case on the mp3 player market.
we've all speculated (wished, dreamed) of Apple to become an OS maker instead of hardware vendor but its not going to happen. Sad but true. I wouldn't doubt it if they even cease production of all desktop computers and only make Powerbooks, miniMac's, and iPods (eventually creating their own type of Palm device iPod).
as for this comment someone posted: "My bad, so why is Desktop Linux not ready for mom and dad again?"
The answer is it lacks a killer app for the mainstream. Every school, and every college REQUIRES MSFT products. What they really require is stuff in Word in .doc format which until OOo 2 beta wasn't up to snuff. And since OOo/StarOffice still doesn't have grammar checker it still can't answer the MSFT/Office or (IMO better WordPerfect) call.
What would be awesome is if WordPerfect Office made a linux port again but since the Open Source crowd wants everything on Linux Open Source and free that's never going to happen again.
In short, the open source crowd is what keeps *nix from being mainstream. So it remains a hobby/niche os and could even go extinct.
I love my Mac. It works great for me.
I don't know why you think that a company has to have the majority of market share to be an effective business. Apple and Microsoft are businesses. They desire to sell enough products to make a profit each quarter. I would not want Apple to change the way they do things now just so they can have the dominant market share. I only wish that more people would take a look at what a Mac could do for them...especially if they are displeased with their Windows eXPerience.
I would not want a person who loves their PC to try Mac OS X only to get on a chat board like this to complain about it. If you're going to switch from Windows to Mac OS X, look at it with an open mind and be a little flexible.
Some people like vanilla ice cream, some like chocolate ice cream, and some just don't like ice cream. Deal with it. AND GET FREAKING SPELL CHECK!!!!!!!!! I can't even understand what some of you are trying to say...
Uh, yeah. You're what is commonly referred to as a friggin' idiot. Yes, I am aware of your magical, ironclad "G4s suck" argument: it's stupendous. There's no way around it. I mean, what with your extensive experience with Macintoshes, you ought to know!
The x86 mobile chip? Which one? And how is a chip that slows itself down to save power a superior item when it comes to getting something done? Oh, I forgot: PC zealots don't get anything done; they PLAY GAMES. Uh-huh.
And to dismiss Apple's market share in the portable music player market? BRILLIANT CHOICE. I can't wait for your dissertation decying the Great Myth of Gravity, too. Should be fascinating.
It's a damn good thing your parents pay your bills. Otherwise you'd go hugry.
Doubt it would ever happen, if it did though..
I would literally run down to Best Buy and a copy immediatly.
Its easy - clone it!
Topdesk for expose' @ http://www.otakusoftware.com/topdesk/
Objectdock @ http://www.stardock.com/products/objectdock/
and finally
FlyakiteOSX @ http://osx.portraitofakite.com/
You install these three apps and booyah.. instant OSX clone (theme)
the dock is very responsive, every icon is replaced, everything works and you have your windows apps too.
Bar that, I'm a go buy a mini.....
This article should have been posted on April 1st ...
Even if these fantasies of porting Mac OS X to the x86 could be true, and I would assert that Apple would not do so because it would pillage their hardware market and earn them very few converts in the long run, the announcement could never be a secret.
Apple would have to let developers know months, if not years, before such an announcement was made public. They would need this time simply to prepare their software for the new OS. Apple would also have to have an extensive testing programme, simply to avoid the criticism of poor hardware support (which is one of the biggest, legitimate, problems with Linux today).
No. No such conversion can be done in secret.
adsl156.brico.com is talking out of his ass.
His comments are some of the stupidest and lowest ones that i have seen on this website.
This article is so flawed.
1) Why would anyone buy MacOS for the PC if Office,Photoshop,and millions of binary applications will not work? The only thing more limiting than that will be owning a Mac on PowerPC.
2) Why would Steve Jobs destroy his profit base by undermining his own business?
3) Why would Steve Jobs destroy Apple's "leetness" factor? Once it becomes more common, everyone's just going to dump MacOS because it will be just the same old thing like Windows.
4) And finally, Apple can't just wait 6 months and release a better OS than Microsoft. Microsoft is spending billions over many years developing in secret. They are probably already way ahead in the game than Apple. If it was just as easy as waiting and releasing, I'll just wait 6 months after Intel and AMD release their next gen cpu's and then release mine and I'm quite sure it will be better because I waited.
Anyways, this has had to be the stupidest article I ever read. If the author wants MacOS so badly, just fork over the cash and buy MacOS.
I just want to put forward the following anecdotal evidence for what it is worth. My 5 year old daughter announced one day "I prefer Linux". She then proceeded to reboot from XP into Linux, started up OpenOffice, and type in her usual sentences.
I did NOT teach her to use either Word or OOWriter, and it appeared that she was equally comfortable with applications and navigation under both XP and Linux.
So I think (I am an associate prof. of CS), that while mom and pop might experience difficulties with Linux, their children or grandchildren can easily make the transition.
Hi,
Apple is not a software company. True! I wouldn't not swtich totally from MS ot Apple. Even if Apple has such a nice product. I just hate the fact that ppl think they are so much better than PC. People YOU ARE SO FREAKING WRONG! I am an Apple user, I do my Publishing on my G5. So? Tiger runs on PC, not natively but it runs with 3rd party software. What software well PearPC. Long time ago it was impossible to emulate PPC, now it's possible. It's taking for ever eventually we will get there. I don't want Apple to become available for pc. It crashes on it own hardware, imagine on 3rd party hardware, it would be a disaster! Apple computer are not more expensive than PC, that is a fact. I spent more on software on a pc than my Mac. Don't believe me, well you could probably ask me how? Well i got iWork for $99(CND)and it does what i need. Even to do my publishing. You pay 3 to 4 times for Office 2003 on a pc. Plus you can't create PDF from any source, so you will need Acrobat 7 Pro, wich is alot more expensive. If you are on a Mac you have the choice of saving as PDF. CONTINUE>>
I would say that Apple has a great product. Well it's market share is doing very well. that is if no one finds a way to compete face to face with the iPod, and it's iTunes... but someobody will figure it out. I hate apple evangelists, they think they are so smart. Smart ppl are open and love to challenge try different things, and then talk. I use Linux, great product needs more support. Microsoft is here, and is here to stay. That Apple comes with the best OS ever, even like that they will never take Microsoft down. They had the chance long time ago. Microsoft share might go down, they will find a way to make it back up. This is like AMD vs Intel. I hate to say this but sometimes we need to realize that even if both are great companies, they have different stategies. Apple has it way of bashing Microsoft, and Microsoft just tries to deliver something that works and that will work even on an old pc. You got to give them credit, they are not the best. At least they don't go around making fun of Apple. Even if Apple claims that there system doesn't crash hahahahaha trust me it doesn. And it freezes and it goes funny... it's created by human beings...c'mon so is Windows!
So this is not going yo happen, this article just isn't happening!
You shouldn't project your personal ideas and impressions on the population at large. In other words, you don't speak for users, you speak for yourself only.
I personally don't think that geeks are dwindling in numbers. To the contrary, looking at kids and teenagers, it seems to me that more and more of them are getting interested in CS and related fields. These kids were born with PCs, technology isn't intimidating to them.
That said, you can easily have a Linux system that "just works." Very easily, in fact. Of course, if you like to tweak and tinker then you have to be ready to face the consequences, but that's true of any OS.
I think we'll continue to see an increase in *nix systems (including Mac OS X) as the next generation takes over. In any case, I haven't seen any studies or polls that point to the contrary.
Give me OSX for the PC. I'd happily buy OSX for my AMD64 machine in a heartbeat. I've played with OSX on my mother'n'laws iMac and I really like it, just wish Jobs could slide a bit and release for the x64 pc platform.
Well that's just me.. I know it's never going to happen but there are always wishes and dreams...
My bad, so why is Desktop Linux not ready for mom and dad again?
You haven't met my mom and dad. Mac OS X is hardly ready for them.
its open hardware?
so I guess I can get the specs for all the hardware in a PC and then create my own drivers for them and even decided to build my own hardware? No? well then it is not open .
Desktop linux's development model is way to chaotic to make any impact. There's not even a standard toolkit.
Neither is there one on Windows...
OS X is pretty damn close....
My mom and dad has a windows PC and I got a call from her every day because of a problem she had... I made her get an emac when her computer finally died
(it got badly infected with adware and spyware and she never could figure out how to run the software to get rid of it.... good for me.. I got an extra 19 inch monitor, 512 MBs of RAM and a hard drive out of it... I let my brother take the rest for his F's PC which needed to be upgraded badly.)
now that she had an emac, the only time I here from her is when I call her to see what is going on...
Is a Wine-like app that offered up 100% (or near 100%) compatability with Windows apps. If that isn't possible, not even an x86 port of OSX would persuade me to switch.
Linux is starting to take a big bite out of Windows' market share. IDC and others are projecting Linux on 15% - 20% on all desktops by end of the year. Many people I know have just recently switched to Linux including myself.
With the new OpenOffice 2.0 coming out I don't think there are still any reasons to use Microsoft Office. We moved to OpenOffice here on all the desktops and most of us like it quite a bit more.
There is no doubt that Mac OS X would sell well initially, everyone wins right? Apple sells a a lot of OS's, everybody buys cheaper computers. But that is just the short term. In a few years Apple is a shadow of it's former self, cutting back on development to try to maintain profitablity. Intruducing elaborate copy protection schemes to reduce piracy.
Right now Apple can ignore piracy for two reasons. Every copy of OS X runs on a computer they built and made profits off of. As a result, they can look the other way. Second, the Apple user base is so loyal, that almost all are willing to pay Apple's relativly low price for OS upgrades, because they believe in the company. Unfortunatly that type of loyalty does not exist in the mainstream. People have long fed their software appitiet with "free" copies of everything they want especially OSes. They are not going to line up and pay Apple to keep them up.
Apple is on the right track. Make their product distintive, and provide the best experiance increase market share to the 20-30% range buy grabbing all the people that are willing to pay for what they need and make as much money as if they had 100% of the total market (profit margins are better than market share, they are slowly increasing market share) I suspect they will be at 5% by then end of this year, and around 10% when lonhorn rolls out. But their profits will have nearly caught MS and they will be the healthier company.
That is bets for everyone, Apple users and Windows users. Without Apple to copy, do you really like where MIcrosoft leads?
yeah.. we all have switched at some time or another to Linux.. then we got sick of the maintenance and now relegate it to server work.
Speak for yourself. Windows requires more maintenance than Linux. Even a XP SP2 install will degrade over time, as experience has taught me.
.... you're about to start a flame war with comments like that... be careful... I don't know what do you mean by "serious", if you're talking things like "doing some serious-paid-work" I guess you either haven't ever used OSX or Windows or you never did anything more than text editing in your office.
8% of the planet own a desktop computer
16% of the planet as acces to computer and the internet.
12% of the desktop world wide run GNU/Linux
7% run Apple
72% run Microsoft
9% run the rest
we havent started the hardware war and your already scared ...
And I suppose you have source to back up these numbers, right?
3 days until tiger is unleashed, 15 days before all its improvments are included in some form GNU/Linux
Yeah, in some pre-alpha form that will be finished two or three years if not abandoned before. Even resolution switching doesn't work properly (the max refresh rate of lower resolution are locked to the max refresh rate of the highest resolution). F/OSS is getting better but the "it's already better" attitude is hurting the movement since people buy the hype, realise this is lies and won't come back.
The collapse and bankruptcy of Apple would shake the market, all right, and that's what we'd get, quickly, w/ Tiger for PC.
For Apple's part, they'd get a drastic drop in hardware sales, drastically expanded costs (since they'd now be supporting generic junk hardware like MS tries to do), LESS hardware support (couldn't use existing Mac or Windows drivers), and rage from all the developers who (if they chose to play at all) would have to buy new machines and rewrite every line of code to support a brand new processor. And no, giving us Cocoa for Windows back (while it would be wonderful) is not the answer to that.
Users would have a brief euphoria (cheap computers that aren't saddled with Windows!), followed by the realization that none of their existing software would work, and any new stuff that appeared wouldn't likely be of decent quality for a few years. Many of them would then install Windows on the new hardware they bought so they could use it.
The _only_ winner would be MS. I'd have to say I'd probably choose anything but Apple, on the theory that Tiger would likely be the last release of the MacOS.
the max refresh rate of lower resolution are locked to the max refresh rate of the highest resolution
Are you sure about this? I'm pretty sure I can change the refresh setting of my display.
Is the refresh range correctly set in your xorg.conf file?
I have to agree with you about the numbers posted. Some seem a bit exaggerated...In a fight, it's important not to overestimate your strenght, or underestimate the opponent's.
It will never happen. There is no benefit in it for Apple. Zip. Zilch.
Just say that Apple surprises the globe with PC-OS X.
What's going to run on it? Photoshop? Nope. MS Office? No, sorry. Apples software? Perhaps, but...why would the folks that use Apples applications want to run them on the PC? If they use them, they already have them on Mac OS. You think they want to buy new copies? That's a great idea! Buy new hardware, and all new software at the same time! AGAIN!
It won't run Mac Classic applications at all...nope, sorry. So, that legacy software is DOA.
Which motherboards and such are they going to run on? Which of the gazzilion cards and peripherals is it going to support? "Wow! Apple just release an advanced operating system that has no applications and doesn't run on commodity hardware! They code named it 'BeOS'!"
If they ANNOUNCE they're porting, then Apple may experience the Adam Osborne Effect, where consumers decide to wait for the new version vs buy the current version. I mean, why buy a new Mac now if the PC version is coming out in 6 months -- best wait and see, meanwhile Apples sales drop through the floor.
Finally, the whole secrect thing. There isn't even a hint in the rumor mill that this is going to happen. We all know that there is probably an Intel port within Apple, just because we know that NextStep ran on Intel before. But not just the OS group needs to know this, but the Applications groups, the Marketing groups, the CD Production groups -- EVERYBODY has to know about this, Steve can't do it himself.
And nobody is talking about it -- none of the developers, no one. Not a whisper.
It ain't happening, it ain't gonna happen, and, in fact, Apple doesn't NEED it to happen.
#1) Apple is quite profitable and has no reason to completely reinvent the way they do business.
#2) Steve Jobs has spent the last 30 years selling high quality, expensive, full computer solutions to people willing to pay. He got the boot for going overboard at apple, went on to found NeXT and did the exact same thing, with a similar result. Went back to apple, and solidified his position with the emac. Seeing how virtually everything the man has ever been involved in has the same general idea behind it, its kind of wierd to think that he would change now.
#3) One of the reasons OSX rocks so hard is that they dont have to deal with cheap and buggy hardware. The greatest strength of windows is that it will run on anything out of a bargin bin. OSX in direct competition with windows would be putting it in the worst possible place to compete, in an arena that caters to windows strengths.
#4) Apple sells a complete experience, that was the idea behind the company from day one, and is what shows through in their most successful products. OSX is only a piece of that.
To sum it up: Apple does things COMPLETELY differently then microsoft. Apple has ALWAS done things completely differently, and has been around for alot longer. Currently, they are amoung the most profitable tech companies. They have zero incentive to completely change the way they have been doing business for the last 30 years.
Think of microsoft as a volvo, and apple as a rolls royce. A volvo is enough to get the job done, and is quite cheap. A rolls is for someone who loves cars, and they will pay a premium for the experience a rolls royce gives them. Two different approaches, two different markets. And before the flames start, I am not saying that a volvo is worse then a rolls, im saying the two are for completely different kinds of people, and that rolls putting out a low end, econo-car would take alot of work for the company, and chances are, wouldnt hold a candle to a volvo.
Apple actually said in one of the conferences with analysts that they have the option of running Os X on X-86 in case the PPC goes nowhere. I would believe this is what they would use in case MS decides to threaten Apple by withholding Office for the Mac.
If that were to happen, Apple can release Os X for X-86. TextEdit & iPages can already open Word documents. FileMaker can open Excel docs. Keynote opens PowerPoint files. Bye bye Ms Office!
Yes, it can be done. But does Steve Jobs want to do this?
The only drawback with releasing Os X on X-86, I can think of, is that for the most part, the PC hardware just sucks-I mean visually. For e.g., laptops with the functionality of Powerbooks are very heavy and thick. The so-called high performance chips consume a lot of electricity and generate too much heat -hence X-serves preferred in many institutions for setting up supercomputer clusters (they can save a bundle on energy costs alone)
Mac users have been spoiled by good looking hardware complemented by the most advanced and, at the same time, easy to use OS and software. It will be a hard sell to the faithful to go out and buy a cheap looking PC to run such a fine OS.
More interesting would be if one would be able to run Os X and XP simultaneously and natively on the PC or Mac.
We can all dream, can't we?
In any case, nice article. Anything is plausible.
That is one of the main reasons why opendarwin exists...
First, let's get this outtat the way: no way I'll see OS X x86 in my lifetime.
That said, NeXT did run on x86, so I'm almost positive that there are x86 version os OS X in the Apple labs running fine.
One thing I think people are overlooking is the fact that everyone thinks that Apple has to support a billion hardware configurations - they don't. Pop open any Mac (incl. a Powerbook) and you'll see some standard components and chipsets. We know that Powerbooks both run ATI and Nvidia chips; Hard drives are off the shelf; DVD burners are OEM, Apple re-branded; Memory, can sometimes be hit or miss, but in theory, it's the same as PC ram. So what do you have left?
Mobo, maybe hd controller, and USB/Firewire. Apple could require a specific configuration for those that wanted to run OS X on x86. This would seem right in regards to the philospohical differences with Windows/Microsoft needing to support every config on the planet. And let's face it, M$ needs to support mostly the cheap junk (and buggy drivers) and Apple would probably not be hurt much by specifying more high-end parts, which would place it more expensive than some PCs, but just a little or even with Macs.
Of course, I'm sure that (at least initially) there would be any SMP support and there might also be the NUXI (big-endian/little-endian) issue with certain apps and file formats - but who knows, maybe not. PowerPC's are bi-endian so maybe this is all already worked out deep in the OS.
I remember the days of the PowerComputing clones and as soon as Jobs got back, that was one of the first things he killed. So while anything's possible, Apple is first and foremost (for now) a hardware business, so they'd have to find a pretty good reason to go x86.
Bottom line, it won't happen (again). But if it did, the spec would be tightly controlled and wouldn't allow for the cheap junk that is M$'s hardware headache.
>but when a MacOS X release for PC does come, and I'm sure it will...
Okay, I'm really not trying to be a jerk here, but do people who write for OSnews (Federico Biancuzzi) actually understand much about operating systems? OSX on pc is impossible as explained quite well by Will (IP: ---.ded.pacbell.net)
Porting OSX basically renders the last 10+ years worth of programs written for MacOS worthless. I mean, how did you think programs written for powerpc architecture were going to work on x86? Elf dust? Sunshine and rainbows? Al Gore? Ignoring the obvious driver compatibility problem, who wants to use an operating system (aside from hobby os's) with little to no programs written for it?
The thing that made OSX viable was a little strategic planning from Apple. It was called Carbon. As soon as OSX was released, I could already use about half my programs nativley, and the rest worked decently emulated in classic (and much better as later versions came out). It worked because it was on the same hardware. As OSX became more widely accepted, people made the transition to Cocoa. Thats not the case when it gets ported to a different architecture. As evidenced with PearPC, it is certainly possible to do hardware emulation, but by no means viable. There is no possible scenario in which Apple could port to x86 and overtake the market let alone survive.
Theoretically (OS "allegiances" aside) who would buy Windows XP, the clear market dominator, ported to an Apple Mac G5 when hundreds of thousands of x86 windows applications wouldn't work on it?
why not go the other way?
Apple sends a new Mac (with Dual Core G5 of course) to Microsofts PC Design Competition (http://www.startsomethingpc.com/default.aspx) an receive 125K USD for it.
MS and Apple decide to establish a joint venture to create a new OS, based on Windows NT, together for the new machine.
They call it OSX/2 ;-)
I think my bullshit posting is much more realistc than the original article here
It make absolutly no sence to port OS X to X86 or Windows to PPC.
The OS market (as a single porduct) is very limited.
MS makes the main money with OEM contracts and professional users (companies) which pay a yearly fee to use the software.
Apple makes the main money with Hardware.
There is no need for both to change that.
I couldn't agree more on that, these hardware maufacturer being slaves to Microsoft and Apple (not so much of slaves we have seen the support they give) really sucks. It about time hardware manufacturers did their job and do not pick sides. Wake up guys, it's about time Linux got some support from ATI and Nvidia, this whole scenario sucks.
the linux nvidia drivers rock, its ati who doesnt seem to care about their linux userbase.
But what eye candy it is! I guess film makers, audio engineers, musicians, publishers, and just about every other creative type uses Macs just for its beautiful interface.
NeXT ran on Motorola 68030/68040 proprietary hardware, not on x86 !
So far for history class ...
"But they would need to sell PC hardware then, because as we all know PC hardware sellers are very reluctant about not pre-installing an OS and even less pre-installing anything other than Windows"
That is not true everywhere. In this country the vast majority of desktop computers are built by your local shop or by a small factory. If you know what you are doing you can always choose which OS you want, or none at all.
If you want a no OS PC you can get one in most countries.
OS X includes gcc. This means that a 64bit application for a G5 could work on x86_64 with a simple "make build".
BSD people know that. Take a look at NetBSD: 1 src tree more than 40 platforms.
So you don't need to "port" your applications...
I could see Apple issuing a limited license for OS X to a few companies like IBM, or Sony, or HP at some point in the future to extend the breadth of the platform. But throwing an x86 version out for every beige-box manufacturer in the world like some Windows or Linux isn't gonna happen. One of the attractions of the Mac platform is the tight integration of the software and the hardware. If they do license out OS X, you can be sure it's only going to be to a few companies that have the expertise and the resources to likewise maintain that integration. I doubt Apple is going to tolerate leaving the quality of their user experience at the mercy of hardware vendors that they have no input with. As often as not, problems people complain about with Windows are actually hardware issues. I doubt Apple wants to find themselves in the same position.
Guys, I think some of you are really missing one point: OS X is by far the most advanced OS there is. It's not really only a matter of look or interface design. It's also the most user-friendly and it's got the best UI miles ahead of the rest. That's a fact, you cannot deny it. Everyone that has studied just a bit of interface design would agree on that. But it's not just that:
Mac OS X's architecture is far superior to Linux & Windows. Doesn't matter how many Dock or Exposé clones you can find: I happen to have been a user of those for quite a long time, but they're memory hungry, they aren't based on a server-client window scheme, and they collapse quite often or hang up from time to time. And are not system integrated.
Quartz Extreme & Quicktime (and now Core Image and Core Video) make a solid basis to develop powerful graphic effects at virtually zero performance hit, and are able to update the contents of the window while transforming it (try that, clones), or to let you interact with it.
Some guy noted out that all the major features in Tiger would be out for GNU/Linux in two weeks. That's not gonna happen any time soon, my dear friend. Spotlight technology has to be built into the core of the system. The Dashboard is much more than just a bunch of widgets, and it benefits from Exposé technology. Automator is based on Applescript, so leave that one out too. H.264 - Quicktime 7... no way soon, but maybe not that far. iChat AV is faaaaaaaar superior to any IM program out there.
But on top of that is that out-of-the-box look that Apple has, that makes sure that everything is going to work at the first time. It does work always. Everything. That's amazing. No dependency error, no library needed, no compiling. I've spent years struggling with those errors trying to install linux software, some times it worked, some times it didn't. Sometimes I had to get some new drivers for some new peripheral, sometimes I did not... but it's that lack of consistency that hurts linux. OS X is working now. It's everything Linux wants to be, and more, but now.
"And I suppose you have source to back up these numbers, right? "
Source : Moulinneuf
You mean your too incompetent to know about it and to confirm it by yourself :
Number of internet user worldwide by the UN , Number of internet user wordwide by Internet stats , number of computer desktop shipped worldwide , number of computer estimated to still be in use worldwide , number of download of GNU/Linux , BSD worldwide. Number of big GNU/linux company clients and Number of big BSD company ( excluding Apple ) etc ... its the compilation of many of those source where I get the midle ground numbers as the accurate numbers are almost impossible to come by ( it ship everywhere from many place and not everyone reports it ).
"Yeah, in some pre-alpha form that will be finished two or three years if not abandoned before."
Apple is copying GNU/Linux in this release and as added some nifty little trick wish can be easily added ...
"Even resolution switching doesn't work properly (the max refresh rate of lower resolution are locked to the max refresh rate of the highest resolution)."
It be fun that you provided details of what your talking about ( hardware , software , who's the pro doing your support and install ) :
whe have x.org which dont do that , Xfree dont do that either , Xi Graphics dont , Nvidia and Ati dont either, etc ...
"F/OSS is getting better but the "it's already better" attitude is hurting the movement since people buy the hype, realise this is lies and won't come back."
Lies ? oh yes You cant run Microsoft office on it without some crossover or wine program and you cant run the apps from apple or windows without an emulator , beside that it ship with more software natively for a cheaper price , is more stable when installed properly and is cheaper to upgrade.
BTW if it dont work as you put it why is our code used in BOTH Apple and Microsoft product ...
You frickin "apple people" make me ashamed to enjoy computers in any way whatsoever, regardless of the OS. I only saw one or two posts refer to Apple as a hardware VENDOR (do you people even know what's inside your pcs? do you think it's all made by Apple? oh, that's right - you don't care and don't want to know) and others full of typical condescending remarks ala the idiot dems when we lost to Bush...again...which I didn't think was possible. But oh don't underestimate the ability of gifted elitist genius informing the lowly peons of what they SHOULD and SHOULDN'T be using or doing with themselves... And the constant whining of "I just want to get my work done!". Well what the hell do you think the "rest" of us do every single day? We all WORK. We use what we've got! What we like! What we've chosen! Linux, OS X, XP...I've got several of each! Where do you people get off simultaneously speaking for and insulting the majority, bitching about minority status (oh why aren't we all as brilliant as you?) and then when it's suggested or dreamed about that one thing might be operable with another, wailing and writhing in throes of death and pain about the sanctity of the platform and how the fabric of society will be torn asunder. "MARRIAGE should be between a MAN and a WOMAN!! There is no other way!!! Anything else de-values the meaning of what I have!!!" Is that what you mean? No of course not...because you're all open-minded, intelligent, creative, writing-types who defend choice above everything as well as getting all the WORK in the world done while the rest of us lie around on our asses rebooting our fingers to the bone as a result of ignorant choices, deformed faces, and hunchbacks. Sure we've got poets, painters, writers and musicians, but they're all butt-ugly, and certainly not as talented or hip as those who use OS X!
Listen to yourselves. Good grief. This is how you make your case? This is the tone you use to convince and convey? You want people to "vote for your man"? Or use your OS? Good luck with whatever else you're destined for. Especially if it involves anything outside a circle of like-minded friends few in number.
Oh wait...
This "Apple is indie and punk" business is tired. Yeah, it's punk like Greenday is a rolls royce is a volvo is a U2 edition iPod which doesn't record video straight from my tv...
ahhh...feel better now.
>OS X includes gcc. This means that a 64bit application for a G5 could work on x86_64 with a simple "make build".
>BSD people know that. Take a look at NetBSD: 1 src tree more than 40 platforms.
>So you don't need to "port" your applications...
Yes thats great. First we'll assume that every Macintosh program used one development platform (which they didn't). Then we'll assume that one common development platform is gcc (which it isn't). Then we'll assume that every person who has written a program for the Macintosh in the past 10+ years will be compelled to a.) feed the source code into gcc with "makex86binary" flag on and redistribute it or b.) make their program open source so that others can recompile it.
Now back to the real world; who would develop for OSX86? Scenario A: Apple releases it right away (as this article suggests) and they release a relatively dead operating system (nothing works except maybe Apple programs) who wants to use that? And why would they compete with themselves (OSXPPC) Scenario B: They announce it, oh say a year in advance? That basically marks the death for OSXPPC since most people will jump ship to the least expensive hardware platform. A chain effect follows, people will stop buying PowerPC hardware and software in anticipation forcing developers to make the shift. But where do they shift to? OSX86 is a year away. I can tell you where I would shift to, and it would not be an yet-to-be-released operating system. There is unfortunatley no way that this would work out.
Dude, you should probably chill out a bit, maybe go outside and walk it off... I got your first part about Apple not being a vendor. Actually they are. They sell hardware and solutions (thats a vendor in my book). Did they actually solder every little piece in the computer? No, but which computer manufacturer does? Did they "design" alot of the components? I'm pretty sure they did, unless I'm mistaken. As for the rest of it... sanctity of marriage, rebooting our fingers to the bone, whoa... what?
>...it's punk like Greenday is a rolls royce is a volvo is a U2 edition iPod which doesn't record video straight from my tv...
Huh????
Seriously... think about decaf. You'll live longer.
"All Gods are on our sides , All Country are on our side , we have more people , they are willing to work for free ( as in no cost at all ) , our projects never die , our software cant be bought , where working 25/8 400 days a year ( no mistake some of us pull one , two or three or more jobs at the same time ).
And Reinforcement is on the way ."
Okay... now really. Huh?
What??
What world do you live in?
Dude. The world isn't black or white, win or lose, good or bad. Learn the variations, understand the economics of life and all the grays and complexities that it involves (and no, I don't just mean the economics of the software industry), and understand humanity in general. Come back in 10 years (after your friends with yourself again) and laugh about your former idealism.
btw...
"..and I aint your friend , my friend are people I have known for more then 10 years."
Be more open and friendly. It only takes a moment to make a new friend when you're a nice and engaging person. Why would you shut out other people?
There is an old saying... the person who has most to fear of theft is the one most likely to be a thief.
To me, your little 10-year friendship thing above seems to me that you don't wish to trust people to easily, because you yourself are not trustworthy, and know what bad things you would do if given trust.
Perhaps you're not like that? From your other comments, I think that's the exact opposite of what you are, but that's not what your 10 year comment says. Maybe you should rethink your attitude then and understand other people, and their viewpoints, and learn to accept and trust them. You wouldn't feel so upset about something as inane as an Operating System for your computer then!
Not if Apple keeps releasing crappy hardware updates...!
Last update (due today Wednesday) dual 2.7 ghz with 250gig max HD, and only 1 (one) optical drive, and outdated mediocre mobo that only supports pci-x slots. Are you friggin kidding me???
No matter how well Tiger performs it won't make up for appalling hardware, and updates.
Where's the 3Ghz by two years ago?
"Seriously... think about decaf. You'll live longer. "
I dont drink coffee at home or daily ... thks for having my health at heart.
"What world do you live in? "
Same as you ... I just got a better accurate and wider picture of it then you do ;-)
"Dude."
I aint dude , you have me mistaken for somebody else.
" The world isn't black or white"
I know you missed grey ;-)
"win or lose"
I know you missed win - win and loose - loose ;-)
"Learn the variations"
Everyday ;-)
"understand the economics of life"
There are no economics to life , economics are a human based.
"and all the grays and complexities that it involves "
Trying everyday.
"and understand humanity in general. "
I understand humanity in general.
"Come back in 10 years (after your friends with yourself again) and laugh about your former idealism. "
I can point and laugh at you right now , your so full of yourself that you think you can even begin to know me or what I am all about , I am laughing right now at people like you who wonder the world thinking nothing really mathers and that they cant be realy part of it. You cant control the world , but you can participate and influence it.
"Be more open and friendly."
I am open , I am friendly , I just know the meaning of friend , and I know its uses , someone who have to say that they are your friend usualy arent ...
" It only takes a moment to make a new friend when you're a nice and engaging person."
I disagree , friend are those people that are there for you in your time of needs. True friends are people who go above and beyond of there way to help you everyday.
"Why would you shut out other people? "
I shut out other people ? no ... Beeing in disagreement and opposing view is not shutting others out ... Its called free thinking, and knowledge.
"There is an old saying... the person who has most to fear of theft is the one most likely to be a thief. "
actual saying : dont believe in misquoted old saying from people you dont know on the internet.
" your little 10-year friendship thing above seems to me that you don't wish to trust people to easily"
Nothing little about a friendship going on 10 years , I guess you dont and cant know that ;-), and trust as nothing to do with Friendship. Friendship take time to build.
"because you yourself are not trustworthy"
Trust is earned over time , friendship are built on time , calling everyone your friend is just an insult to your real friend if you have any ;-)
"and know what bad things you would do if given trust."
you obviously dont know me , at all ;-)
"Perhaps you're not like that?"
No perhaps ...
"but that's not what your 10 year comment says."
Your choosing to missinterpret my words as no bearing what so ever on my life and my relationship with others.
"Maybe you should rethink your attitude then and understand other people,"
Or maybe not , and I do understand other people.
"and their viewpoints"
I prefer my global view , then some uninformed clueless bias
from some amateur , and I am sharing it with them ;-)
"and learn to accept and trust them."
I tolerate them , accept them , no , trust them no , they are part of and accomplices in the problem.
"You wouldn't feel so upset about something as inane as an Operating System for your computer then!"
I aint upset , OS aint inane , otherwise why are you discussing it/them ? on a OS news/discussion website?
Oh no , thats right you where discussing your false perception of what a friend is and trying to make me agree with it ...
Os are inane : close your computer and walk away , no computer work without an OS ...
The only thing empty , insubstantial , laking significance , laking meaning and point is you. But you can choose to learn
to be part of society and not just try and judge them.
You're hosed.
Recompile yourself. You obviously need a new kernel.
Free software... what? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...
If you only knew the power of the dark side...
I think most PC users will have a serious issue with Apple expecting $150 out of them ever 6 months for a .1 increase on the OS.
Apple cultists all do whatever Jobs says, but the kind of PC users who would install OSX for the first few years would not be willing to buy an upgrade every 6 months for the same price as their initial purchase.
And think about it: Mac OSX barely has any popular software, which computer users were the ones who'll drop everything they already know, the software they've become familar with, and the large amounts of free tech support(friends/friends of a friend) for a fledgling OS that will always be 3rd in line, behind Mac Hardware and Mac OSX?
If they had put OSX on x86 years ago, around the time of Windows 95's first appearance, and kept it there, then Apple would have had a chance at the PC market. Unless there's a major change in PC architecture(beyond x86-64 - maybe pure 64 like Itanium), I personally don't see OSX or ANY future Apple PC products reaching beyond the niche market status.
I really don't think this is likely at all, but it is possible.
NeXTStep and therefore OS X support fat binaries. All future programs could be distributed with PPC and x86 binaries. I'm sure that most programs would work fine with a simple recompile in Xcode. Developers could recompile and make a downloable installer that would take the original media, install the files needed, and install an updated fat binary. A slight inconvenience yes, but not what everyone seems to be making it out to be.
To the person that said iTunes for Windows looks like iTunes on OS X, maybe apple has a port of Cocoa to windows. After all, there was a port of OPENSTEP to Windows NT.
"You're hosed."
No ;-)
"Recompile yourself."
No need ...
"You obviously need a new kernel."
Really , why ?
"Free software... what?"
It seems simple enough for me ...
"If you only knew the power of the dark side... "
There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the Force.
I know exactly the power of the darkside. But do you know the power of free ?
If you read this thread the very least you can conclude is that Apple does invoke the passionate debate 
.
Sleeping with the Tiger this weekend .
/Not worried about how fast the chip happens to run, more interested in how the system performs. Quite well, thank you very much
>The so-called high performance chips consume a lot of >electricity and generate too much heat
Both 90nm AMD64 and PPC970FX consume about the same amount of power (watts).
Reference.
PPC970FX
1. http://www-03.ibm.com/technology/power/newsletter/august2004/articl...
AMD64
2. http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20041115/pentium4_570-20.html
Why not the following:
Apple removes G5 and replaces by AMD-64-CPU in their hardware setup.
Apples still wouldn't be able to run Windows
PC's wouldn't be able to run Mac OS X
There you have it.
Could be done (technicaly and marketing-wise)
Are you sure about this? I'm pretty sure I can change the refresh setting of my display.
Well, I can change it. My monitor can do 75Hz at 1600x1200, 100Hz at 1152x864 and 144Hz at 800x600... However, if I set the Modes to 1600x1200 (otherwise, X.org chooses the highest resolution), 75Hz is the maximum refresh rate I can select for all resolutions. I can select 60, 65... but not 100 in 1024x768/1152x864. Reproduced in Debian (with Xfree), Gentoo, Ubuntu, Fedora and Arch.
Is the refresh range correctly set in your xorg.conf file?
Sure. I entered the HorizSync and VertRefresh given by the manufacturer and the monitor (via EDID) and I even tried to omit them since the nv/nvidia driver can read the EDID information.
It's nothing really important, but it's the little things that say that Linux is ready for desktop, but not polished enough for everyone.
"You're hosed."
No ;-)
Definitely
"Recompile yourself."
No need ...
What makes you think that?
"You obviously need a new kernel."
Really , why ?
You don't have the module to comprehend that. You need kernel 2.6.12.
"Free software... what?"
It seems simple enough for me ...
If you say so.
"If you only knew the power of the dark side... "
There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the Force.
That's knowing the light side...
I know exactly the power of the darkside. But do you know the power of free ?
Given that I use OpenBSD for servers and Mac OS X on desktops, I guess I do. But I am far from a FOSS Zealot. OpenSource is nice, but at some levels, you do need a company behind. Open source will never rule as long as we keep using money to do things. Don't bother, you won't get it.
As much as I may dislike Microsoft's politics and software (some), it is because of Microsoft that a whole generation of people have had access to a computer. When Macintosh was insanely expensive, when Unix was only available in expensive servers, when OS/2 was a freakking IBM thing (killed by marketing) when linux was just a void main() function...
Microsoft introduced Win3.x, later 95, later 98... etc.
Yeah, those things were ugly, but it was all you granma had...
So the world can live without FOSS. It would not be that cool, but it's possible. Remember, money can kill anything. You only need it.
"Definitely "
Interesting ...
"What makes you think that?"
Due to my job , I have to see a doctor and a shrink on a weekly basis.
"You don't have the module to comprehend that. You need kernel 2.6.12. "
2.6.11.7 is stable. I have the one you mention and many others another machine.
"If you say so. "
I just did ;-)
"That's knowing the light side... "
No , thats knowing and understanding the light side.
" Given that I use OpenBSD for servers and Mac OS X on desktops, I guess I do."
No , to Understand the dark side you must have worked for and at Microsoft , some UNIX company , SCO or SUN or IBM in the 80's. Apple and OpenBSD even do they dont meet my high standards are what I call grey side and are sometime ally.
"But I am far from a FOSS Zealot."
Beeing a FOSS zealot is a good thing. For everyone.
"OpenSource is nice, but at some levels"
No , at every level.
"you do need a company behind."
No ...
" Open source will never rule as long as we keep using money to do things."
Open source and money are two different things and one dont exclude the other. I will add that in Open Source a lot of money is/whas/will be mismanaged.
"Don't bother, you won't get it. "
Actually I get the innacurate point your making , Its you who dont get reality.
"As much as I may dislike Microsoft's politics and software (some), it is because of Microsoft that a whole generation of people have had access to a computer."
No , but then again your not old enough to remember what the 70's and 80's where. Micrososft did participate , dont get me wrong on that.
"When Macintosh was insanely expensive"
Macintosh where never insanely expensive , they helped create something new , and back then there whas no ATI , no LG , no Nvidia , no Asus , no Quanta , no etc ...
"when Unix was only available in expensive servers"
Server there whas no server back then ;-)
"when OS/2 was a freakking IBM thing "
OS/2 is still an IBM thing :
http://www-306.ibm.com/software/os/warp/
"(killed by marketing) "
No , it whas killed by management.
"when linux was just a void main() function... "
GNU/Linux came in 1991 , after Linux failure and change of license , Microsoft as been around since the 70's , GNU/Linux whas not supposed to be in use anywhere by anone from any company according to some ...
"Microsoft introduced Win3.x, later 95, later 98... etc"
I tought it started with Dos ...
"Yeah, those things were ugly, but it was all you granma had..."
There whas no computers in the days of my Granma , there where no cars and no phone either and no tv , etc ...
"So the world can live without FOSS."
It whas FOSS who created everything ... Its just a return to what should have never happened.
"It would not be that cool, but it's possible."
No , but then you dont know much about anything.
"Remember, money can kill anything. You only need it."
Remember you being false and wrong and innacurate all along , that shows why all by itself.
You cant kill an idea who's time as come.
>>"But I am far from a FOSS Zealot."
>>Beeing a FOSS zealot is a good thing. For everyone.
Being a zealot is never a good thing, no matter what.
Crusades, anyone?
I rest my case.
Thurrott:
"5:50pm
This one's bizarre, but we heard at lunch today that Apple is unhappy with the PowerPC production at IBM and will be switching to Intel-compatible chips this very year. Yeah, seriously."
http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?articleid=46175&cpag...
On the surface it sounds like an amazing idea. There's all this installed hardware, let's make the software run on it. But as others have said, that flies in the face of Apple logic love. Like it or love it, in the Apple world the hardware and software are one. It's why it (mostly) works. It's what the elegance is all about.
It's also why Apple will never be a majority player again.
But I'd rather have Apple be a minor player than for people with x86 machines getting their first impression of OSX as the beach ball spins, spins and spins as it tries to find its way through a maze of incompatible attached devices.
The driver nightmares alone would set Apple's reputation back ten years. And we all know we don't want to go back ten years with Apple!
"Being a zealot is never a good thing, no matter what."
Being a zealot is always a good thing, they are the one making sure the world turn as it should.
Example of Zealot :
United nations
Oxfam
Red Cross
Peta
FSF
etc ...
They go the distance protecting others with zeal, they put a check on bad behavior of others who are harming others.
"Crusades, anyone?"
Crusade are never a bad thing.
"I rest my case."
And in doing so loose it ...
2 : a zealous person; especially : a fanatical partisan
United Nations aren't Zealots, they're cool-headed leaders who recognized the need to convene to prevent another war. That's not a Zealot.
Neither is the Red Cross. Having never heard of Oxfam, I can't tell you where they stand.
PETA and FSF, however, are very much so Zealots. PETA encourages firebombing, terrorism and any means necessary to acheive their moral ideal, ignoring the lack of universal morals. FSF doesn't quite go so far, but they are generally represented by trolls who make the world a worse place for everyone else.
The Crusades WERE a bad thing. They were a series of wars by groups of Zealots who felt the need to impress their views on others.
And I "loose" nothing, though I believe you might've lost the meaning of most of my arguement.
"United Nations aren't Zealots"
United Nations are zealots , it take a zealot to go in the face of someone with a gun and say lets talk peace. You cant understand if you havent done it personnaly.
" they're cool-headed leaders "
No , thats what you see on TV , its as nothing to do with the real work of the United Nations, and those who do it.
"who recognized the need to convene to prevent another war. That's not a Zealot."
No the first role and goal of the UN whas to prevent all war at all cost , its as grown into something else.
" Neither is the Red Cross."
Wrong again they help everyone regardless of there cause , it take a zealot to go help someone who his trying to murder people and what you believe in. Again you cant understand if you have never participated in such an event.
"Having never heard of Oxfam, I can't tell you where they stand. "
You cant tell me anything as you know nothing your anonymous , your ashame of who you are , find yourself and then comeback and come talk to me.
I doubt your really interested but here is a link :
http://www.oxfam.org/eng/about.htm
"PETA and FSF, however, are very much so Zealots."
Yes and its a good thing.
"PETA encourages firebombing, terrorism and any means necessary to acheive their moral ideal"
No , but then again some extremist criminals are know to have been part of peta in the past , they do not speak for this group and are not speaking in there name.
"ignoring the lack of universal morals."
there are no universal morals , otherwise somethin would strike you down as soon as you do something immorals ...
"FSF doesn't quite go so far, but they are generally represented by trolls who make the world a worse place for everyone else. "
No , the FSF is not represented by trolls , and no one who associate with the FSF make this world a worse place to live in.
"The Crusades WERE a bad thing. "
No , the Crusade where a good thing , but then again you dont know what the crusade where all about.
"They were a series of wars by groups of Zealots who felt the need to impress their views on others. "
You just prooved my point ...
"And I "loose" nothing"
Your posting as anonymous , you lost at minimum respect for yourself and who you are.
"though I believe you might've lost the meaning of most of my arguement."
No , because your word are meaningless , proven wrong by millenia of studies and its not an argumentation as you provided nothing at all to back up your view.
- You dont know the meaning of troll.
- You dont know the meaning of Zealot.
- You dont know what respect for yourself is.
-= Moulinneuf
walk away I am not interested by anything you have to say , I know them as wrong and immorals , real people who have something to say put there name beside there writtings.
Ashamed of who I am? It's the internet, I left an IP, which is exactly what you left. Anything else is completely fakable. I left no name because I felt no need.
It doesn't take being a zealot to help people, it takes being a caring person. If you care about life, then you can do it. They're not fanatical, thus denying themselves from being a Zealot.
As for PETA, they have hired atleast one known terrorist to go around to schools and talk to students about PETA. On multiple college visits, he has explained how to make a fire bomb. All under the employ of PETA. So yeah, I'd say he's speaking for PETA.
"You cant tell me anything as you know nothing your anonymous , your ashame of who you are , find yourself and then comeback and come talk to me."
That's merely insulting someone because you can't provide a valid arguement. You attack the fact that I was posting as Anonymous, when you yourself posting under a name are no less anonymous.
"there are no universal morals , otherwise somethin would strike you down as soon as you do something immorals ..."
While you have a point that there are no universal morals(which would be what I said, by the way), the rest of your arguement doesn't relate to the topic at hand.
"No , the Crusade where a good thing , but then again you dont know what the crusade where all about."
The Crusades were a series of wars in which a whole lot of people died, because christians felt the need to go in there and take over another country. If you say that's a good thing, you've obviously lost touch with reality.
"Your posting as anonymous , you lost at minimum respect for yourself and who you are."
"walk away I am not interested by anything you have to say , I know them as wrong and immorals , real people who have something to say put there name beside there writtings."
Again, you decide to attack a moot point rather than present any type of arguement. If I were going to do the same, I would attack your constant errors in spelling and grammar, and the general feel of an 8 year old attempting to sound sophisticated to claim the high ground in an arguement.
You, sir, have proven that you are unaware of facts, and that the opinions you present are unjustified and, knowing this, you choose to point out the fact that I'm posting as Anonymous instead of with an equally anonymous name, rather than back up any of your spurious arguements, and, fearing that I might return and point out what I have, attempt to tell me to walk away, and claim to be not interested in what I have to say.
Finaly decided to join the respectable who use a name or a nick ;-)
"I left an IP, which is exactly what you left."
Unlike you I leave my real life name and an adress that as been working for more then 10 years , I aint ashame at all of what I say.
"Anything else is completely fakable."
well as anonymous yes , as a real identity its punishable by law.
"I left no name because I felt no need."
Thats called no respect for your ancestry , who you are and of what you represent , when your somebody honorable.
"It doesn't take being a zealot to help people"
I agree , everyone can , but it seems to me that the zealot are those do a large part of it , exactly because there zealot who know and understand the consequence.
"it takes being a caring person."
When it become a danger situation those who care as you put it tend to not go and do ther ejob , happens all the time.
" They're not fanatical, thus denying themselves from being a Zealot."
NO , and thats your problem , you mix fanatical extremist with a fanatic , fanatic are someone who care about something deeply , what you mean to say is you can be caring a zealot and not be an extremist. Zealot are not dangerous , they tend to be really stuborn , but that because they know better and live in a world full of fanatics.
"they have hired atleast one known terrorist to go around to schools and talk to students about PETA."
Terorist dont exist , you mean a criminal or ex-murderer , and I am sure he dont go around school for that purpose and if he does go there for recruting its the job of the school to stop him , because I am sure peta aint agreing with him, but even criminal and ex-murderer can be people of light.
" All under the employ of PETA. So yeah, I'd say he's speaking for PETA."
Report him to PETA , and the police and the school authority , you an accomplice and part of the problem if you see it happen and do nothing. I am sure when he does taht he is not speaking in the name of peta.
"That's merely insulting someone because you can't provide a valid arguement."
NO , I have serached for a point and all you do is personnal insult and being in direct disagreement with me , you offer no proof to back up your claim and where doing so anonymously.
"You attack the fact that I was posting as Anonymous"
You posted no fact and yes where doing so anonymously , disrespecting me and even more yourself.
"when you yourself posting under a name are no less anonymous. "
You really are a moron its my real name and a working e-mail adress , I am not a fucking coward like you ! ( done being nice )
"which would be what I said, by the way"
No you said there is a univesal morals , just scroll back , even you can do that ...
" the rest of your arguement doesn't relate to the topic at hand. "
I give you too much respect and reply directly to you own nonsense. I agree this as gone way off topic.
"The Crusades were a series of wars in which a whole lot of people died"
Yes ...
" because christians felt the need to go in there and take over another country."
No ...
" If you say that's a good thing, you've obviously lost touch with reality. "
War are never a good thing , but not doing them like in this case would have been even worst. You dont understand at all what the crusade where about.
"Again, you decide to attack a moot point rather than present any type of arguement."
I have presented fact , point and argument , all you have to do is agree with them or be on your way and live in your false constructed world and bubble.
"I would attack your constant errors in spelling and grammar, and the general feel of an 8 year old attempting to sound sophisticated to claim the high ground in an arguement"
My grammar and spelling is perfect , and I speak like a man would to another man , if you cant understand you own language we can try mine or another one , I doubt you would be able to basicaly communicate with me in any other.
"You, sir, have proven that you are unaware of facts"
I and not you provided them , you are the one in absolute error.
"and that the opinions you present are unjustified and"
Unlike you , I dont present my opinions or fairy tales or fabricated reinvented history.
"you choose to point out the fact that I'm posting as Anonymous instead of with an equally anonymous name"
I post with my real name , with my 10 year old e-mail , with the support and respect of my entire ancestry. SOmething your too ashamed to do.
" rather than back up any of your spurious arguements"
I did as the expert I said : you know nothing of zealot , of history of the crusade of anything at all and whats worst are ashame of your parent , familly and ancestry. I dont have to provide more as your unable to discuss something you havent studied or learned or been taught.
"fearing that I might return and point out what I have,"
I do not fear the coward who hide in anonimosity. I do not fear anyone.
"attempt to tell me to walk away"
I am not attempting , I am telling you again , I won , you will never get me to goble your lies , this is going nowhere , now walk away and do something else.
"and claim to be not interested in what I have to say."
I never spoke of my interest , i spoke of you having no new interesting fact to propose as so far you offered only shame and lies.
Being the grown up , and seeing as you whont let go , this is my final reply , in this thread to you coward !