Linked by David Adams on Sat 16th Jul 2005 23:11 UTC
Internet Explorer As Microsoft inches closer to the first beta release of Internet Explorer 7, the company's development advisors have been advising Web site developers and managers to run certain tests now to prevent problems when the beta version does appear.
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No time
by Anonymous on Sat 16th Jul 2005 23:34 UTC
Anonymous
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Sorry Microsoft, but where I work, we just don't have time to "prevent problems when the beta version does appear" for you.

Reply Score: 3

Acid Test
by Anonymous on Sat 16th Jul 2005 23:37 UTC
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My only question, does IE7 support CSS well enough for the Acid2 test? Judging from the commeents on the IEBlog site, the answer is almost certainly NO. Hey Microsoft, what happened to 'Developers, Developers, Developers!' The developers want CSS support. Don't give us crap about IE specific solutions - just support the standards!

Reply Score: 2

RE: Acid Test
by Varg Vikernes on Sat 16th Jul 2005 23:59 UTC in reply to "Acid Test"
Varg Vikernes Member since:
2005-07-06

Seriously, the Acid test is a joke. Read a bunch of Hyatt's posts (the guy working on Safari) to see what crap they threw at you.

For example take a look at this (http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/archives/2005_04.html#007953). And this is something (as the guys who made Acid2 say) essential CSS that should be parsed by all browsers. Please. That's not nearly all he had to get through to pass it, though. http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/archives/2005_04.html

Btw, does Firefox pass the Acid2 test, does Opera or Konq...? So it's only Microsoft's obligation to support the standards?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Acid Test
by orestes on Sun 17th Jul 2005 00:03 UTC in reply to "RE: Acid Test"
orestes Member since:
2005-07-06

Konqueror passed it a while back.

Reply Score: 2

v RE[3]: Acid Test
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 00:14 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Acid Test"
RE[4]: Acid Test
by drLog on Sun 17th Jul 2005 00:23 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Acid Test"
drLog Member since:
2005-07-11

Nobody sits at their computer looking at a smiley face either ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Acid Test
by Axord on Sun 17th Jul 2005 00:09 UTC in reply to "RE: Acid Test"
Axord Member since:
2005-06-30

From Asa's blog:
(http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/008505.html)

"Acid2 is not on the list of requirements for the next major Firefox release and we're not far enough into the planning for the subsequent release for me to say whether or not it will be on that list. update: one of our Gecko experts has posted in the comments saying 'Asa, I think it's safe to promise that the next major Firefox release after 1.1 will pass Acid2 :-) '"

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Acid Test
by Varg Vikernes on Sun 17th Jul 2005 00:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Acid Test"
Varg Vikernes Member since:
2005-07-06

Which will be released in August/September at earliest (according to their roadmap). Which just confirms what I said. Acid2 is not a major priority for web developers right now. Most of it is just to test browser's error handling in CSS and like that comment tag I posted a link in my previous post.

Reply Score: 2

v RE: Acid Test
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 01:01 UTC in reply to "Acid Test"
RE: Acid Test
by mabhatter on Sun 17th Jul 2005 04:20 UTC in reply to "Acid Test"
mabhatter Member since:
2005-07-17

The Acid2 test is really only an error handling test.. I looked thru the docs and it's litterely every single error CSS2 is supposed to handle. It's nice, but not relevant because good developers wouldn't make ALL those mistakes anyway!!! what we need is a suite that has decenent examples of what work correctly.. Something like CSSZengarden! That shows how powerful the proper standards really are.. with downloadable examples.. but we need it for bleeding edge stuff.. AJAX, Rails, SVG... We need more sites like CSSZengarden for the host of other new tech.. I google nearly every day for examples, and have only found a few sites that even attempt 1-2 examples.. nothing on the scale of ZenGarden... Even CSSZengarden needs to be updated to be a "site" and not just a single page.. it needs forms, postings.. examples of all the gadgets people really use on pages now.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Acid Test
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 12:46 UTC in reply to "RE: Acid Test"
Anonymous Member since:
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"CSSZengarden needs to be updated to be a "site" and not just a single page.. it needs forms, postings.. examples of all the gadgets people really use on pages now."

Dont be so quick to start generalizing a very specific project. There are plenty of dedicated css+design sites out there, including the site of the css zen author (www.mezzoblue.com), stylegala (http://www.stylegala.com) and css beauty (www.cssbeauty.com). Its all out there for the taking ~ just requires a seeker's mind ;)

Reply Score: 0

Weeeeeee
by Ronald Vos on Sat 16th Jul 2005 23:38 UTC
Ronald Vos
Member since:
2005-07-06

Good ol' Microsoft to warn us we might get buggy websites ;)

Reply Score: 1

Backwards confusability
by Axord on Sat 16th Jul 2005 23:41 UTC
Axord
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2005-06-30

"Developers should ensure that their sites are ready for the IE 7 user agent string and treat IE 7 just like they would IE 6"

Ah. No box-model fixes, then?

Reply Score: 1

maybe...
by Brad on Sat 16th Jul 2005 23:49 UTC
Brad
Member since:
2005-07-06

Maybe they have made their browser more standard and ditched some of the classic IE only stuff. Thus all sites with stuff that is IE specific would have problems. Thus the warning.

Reply Score: 2

just like the 50s
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 00:27 UTC
Anonymous
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Just duck, cover and roll Johnny!

Reply Score: 0

IE 7
by TaterSalad on Sun 17th Jul 2005 00:53 UTC
TaterSalad
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2005-07-06

Looks like I might be one of the few looking forward to an updated version of IE. Its a long over due upgrade, and as someone who uses IE at work for intranet specific things, its an open armed welcome.

Reply Score: 1

RE: IE 7
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 04:09 UTC in reply to "IE 7"
Anonymous Member since:
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Looks like I might be one of the few looking forward to an updated version of IE. Its a long over due upgrade, and as someone who uses IE at work for intranet specific things, its an open armed welcome.

Speak for yourself The more 'fancy' stuff IE can do, the more advertisers are going to exploit it, and the harder it will be to block the crap with other browsers. Ever since IE got a popup blocker, I've been seeing all kinds of annoying 'CSS' popup windows all over the place that aren't blocked by conventional popup killers. Personally, I wish IE would stay the way it is forever. There would be a lot of people harmed who refuse to give up IE, but for me that means less bad guys trying to piss in my pool.

Reply Score: 0

firefox
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 00:55 UTC
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Once ie7 hits and wont be able to display a plethora of sites, Firefox downloads will jump way up... smart move microsoft

Reply Score: 0

RE: firefox
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 13:44 UTC in reply to "firefox"
Anonymous Member since:
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>>Once ie7 hits and wont be able to display a plethora of sites, Firefox downloads will jump way up... smart move microsoft<<

Why not just stay with ie6?

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: firefox
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 13:50 UTC in reply to "RE: firefox"
Anonymous Member since:
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as if you have a choice!

Reply Score: 0

v Tabbed browsing
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 00:57 UTC
IE7
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 01:08 UTC
Anonymous
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if microsoft were smart they would use the gecko browser engine for IE7. that would defiently kill firefox and all other browsers

Reply Score: 1

RE: IE7
by Axord on Sun 17th Jul 2005 02:08 UTC in reply to "IE7"
Axord Member since:
2005-06-30

"if microsoft were smart they would use the gecko browser engine for IE7. that would defiently kill firefox and all other browsers"

Eeeeh? How do you figure?

Web Developer: Ah, now I really have to support gecko.

Security Consultant: Ah, my job is still safe since MS included ActiveX.

Firefox Power User: Ah, too bad my extensions don't work with IE.

Opera Power User: Ah hah hah, Opera's always been better then Mozilla, this changes nothing.

Normal User: Ahhhh... what's a browser engine?

Reply Score: 3

Puh-leeeeez!
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 02:03 UTC
Anonymous
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While tabbed browsing is one feature many will surely enjoy, the simple fact of the matter is that unless ActiveX is removed from IE, and other MS specific garbage, the browser will REMAIN insecure.

People are moving toward GPL/Open Source software for choice, not for tabs. How many extensions do you think IE7 will have???? Aside from being a "Critical Update" and being forced to install it in order to continue updating your XP version of MS-Windows... who cares?

I doubt many will be screaming "I need IE7! When can I download IE7!?!?"

Reply Score: 1

sheep
by mabhatter on Sun 17th Jul 2005 04:13 UTC in reply to "Puh-leeeeez!"
mabhatter Member since:
2005-07-17

OOOh but the sheep will.

Windows admins are like battered housewives... they never stop thinking that M$ really cares about them...this time will be better.

If anything the shanigans will draw some developer attention to the other browsers. What we really need is to get the standards compliant browsers to draw up articles how developers can make their pages work on "all" broswers. IF they gotta fix their sites anyway, the key is to grab more press...

I'm betting we'll see at least 1 IE7 article a week in the run-up till release.. all the big outlets, builder.com, cnet, ZD, etc will be fawning all over being "ready"!

I'd venture two things to "undermine" the effort. first, stop posting every single MS "ad" on sites like OSNews.. put them in black out mode. Second, start posting 1-2 articles about how to do it right! AJAX, ruby-on-rails, SVG, firefox 1.1... you gotta fight fire with fire and news-bomb the hell out of the IE release... Don't attack IE7, act like it's not even relevant anymore!!!!

Reply Score: 5

RE: sheep
by Adam S on Sun 17th Jul 2005 12:07 UTC in reply to "sheep"
Adam S Member since:
2005-04-01

Don't attack IE7, act like it's not even relevant anymore!!!!

I hear ya, but you're living in fantasy land. First off, for a news site that is supposed to be mostly objective, we can't have an ax to grind or an underlying agenda. That ruins your credibility and your perceived ethics.

Secondly, there are people who DO care about IE7. Those are the people who want to read this stuff! Just because you want to read about buzz word stuff doesn't mean that there aren't people interested in the maintstream stuff too.

Reply Score: 5

Standards standards standards
by joelito_pr on Sun 17th Jul 2005 02:21 UTC
joelito_pr
Member since:
2005-07-07

Why is it so hard for microsoft to use w3c standards on the MSHTML engine? Is not that they don't know them.

The fact is that until recently M$ was producing a crappy browser and if it wasn't because of pressure from mozilla.org, opera and others they would still have that crappy browser around...

Personally I don't trust M$ products anymore and the only reason why I still use them is because of professor sheep...(Campus stuff)

Reply Score: 1

Update UA
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 03:06 UTC
Anonymous
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FTA:
"First discussed in the company's Weblog in April, the code change prompted a reminder on Wednesday to developers, telling them that Microsoft continues to run across Web sites that are not expecting Version 7 of the browser, and urging them to test their UA strings."

---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------

Interesting to note that MS is telling people to make sure their User Agent is updated. Some websites serve up bogus pages if your UA isn't IE (version whaterver). Kind of funny that MS tells people to update otherwise IE would be a bogus page. Only if people would stop making browser specific pages, its not the early 90's.

From a post:
Why is it so hard for microsoft to use w3c standards on the MSHTML engine? Is not that they don't know them.

Its not in their best interst to follow all standards, it might allow for competition in the market place.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Update UA
by joelito_pr on Sun 17th Jul 2005 03:16 UTC in reply to "Update UA"
joelito_pr Member since:
2005-07-07

Its not in their best interst to follow all standards, it might allow for competition in the market place.

Well erhm...

Forgot about that...

Reply Score: 1

v IE is the standard browser
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 04:00 UTC
Re: IE is the standard browser
by wakeupneo on Sun 17th Jul 2005 04:16 UTC
wakeupneo
Member since:
2005-07-06

...well it is (and will continue to be so) if drones like you keep swallowing the poison kool-aid and ask "Please sir, I want some more"

Personally, I'd rather stick to a solution that the whole industry settles on, rather than a single company.

For those having a hard time grasping the concept:

choice (chois) noun (plural choices)
the act of choosing something or somebody: a decision to choose one thing, person, or course of action in preference to others.

Reply Score: 1

v RE: Re: IE is the standard browser
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 04:52 UTC in reply to "Re: IE is the standard browser"
wakeupneo Member since:
2005-07-06

hehe.....you've just proven my point. It ain't "out there". Free thinking's not a strong point huh.

Reply Score: 1

Line-up with IE7 ! Why ?
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 04:37 UTC
Anonymous
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"Don't attack IE7, act like it's not even relevant anymore!!!!"
Good point!
Why should anybody bother with IE7 rollout problems
And why should anybody lineup with MS requirements anymore?

Reply Score: 0

PNG
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 05:57 UTC
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Having discovered the power of partial transparency in .PNGs, I'm annoyed that IE doesn't display them properly. I accidentally made a website that didn't work in IE (and didn't realize until someone complained). I hope IE 7 WILL do .PNGs correctly, since .gif files aren't quite as useful.

Reply Score: 1

RE: PNG
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 08:57 UTC in reply to "PNG"
Anonymous Member since:
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IE 7 does support PNG alpha tranparency.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: PNG
by Anonymous on Mon 18th Jul 2005 08:48 UTC in reply to "RE: PNG"
Anonymous Member since:
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>>IE 7 does support PNG alpha tranparency.

But how do I hack the CSS to provide PNGs to IE7 and GIFs to IE6?

How can I tell them apart in the CSS? Is IE7 going to understand "!important" ?

It is going to be a f**king mess somehow supporting both IE6 and IE7 weirdness in the same CSS.

Reply Score: 0

Tell them to get...
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 06:12 UTC
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Tell'm to get a real browser, and that you don't support Internet Explorer's lack of features.

Tell them to call Microsoft Support, and ask for a fix.

Send them a link to firefox.

Reply Score: 0

Prepare for patch after patch
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 08:09 UTC
Anonymous
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"the company's development advisors have been advising Web site developers and managers to run certain tests now to prevent problems when the beta version does appear."

IMO: Welcome to Perpetual Beta Testing! Beta testing will continue even after 8 is released. What a fucking joke.

Reply Score: 0

v Free 3D cad
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 08:17 UTC
They cannot...
by pythonhacker on Sun 17th Jul 2005 08:19 UTC
pythonhacker
Member since:
2005-07-07

"if microsoft were smart they would use the gecko browser engine for IE7. that would defiently kill firefox and all other browsers"

Yes, theorotically this is possible, but hey Microsoft developers are not skilled enough to do that. They are taught to program only on MSHTML code base. Further, programming on top of Gecko would need some interaction with the OSS community, which they clearly abhor.

I think you should be aware that Microsoft still thinks their APIs and engines are the best ;-)

Reply Score: 1

The real problem is...
by gonzalo on Sun 17th Jul 2005 08:24 UTC
gonzalo
Member since:
2005-07-06

The real problem is we seem to have somehow accustomed ourselves to this stupid nonsense of browser incompatibilities.

In a better world, a developer would work on a standard which should work on any capable browser and degrade transparently in more limited ones. MS wouldn't go around saying "Oi, your pages may not work on our browser so you have to fix that". They (or any other browser maker) would just support this and that standard and that's it.

I know that's kind of utopic. But, on the other hand, the situation as it is right now is really sad. Not only because of the incompatibilities, but because we, the developers, seem to have accepted them.

Reply Score: 3

People do not lament
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 08:59 UTC
Anonymous
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on IEs incompatibilities, Microsoft does that with every standard, it is part of their strategy to support open standards only half assed then break them severely and then bind them to Windows only or replace them with something of their own which often only is derived from the open standards they do not support.
They have been calling that embrace and extend and have been doing that since ages.
It is just that most WebDevs got the first taste of this thing via the W3C standards, while most other devs have benn spending a significant portion of their time in the past 15 years fighting with that on other levels to make Microsoft software standard compliant.

Reply Score: 0

Slark
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 09:22 UTC
Anonymous
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What can you do as webdeveloper when IE7 doesnt fix your problems? Very easy. Remove the IE specific hacks on your site and add a news about why the IE users doesnt see the correct page (with many links and informations). Dont forget to add the Microsoft support hotline number and tell them to call it!


This has nothing to do with "hating Microsoft", but with the problem that MS ignores standards since years.

If they fixed almost everything, so that all your pages work in a standard compliance way....be happy and do the ms happy dance ("developers, developers, ...." ;) ).

Reply Score: 1

Werner
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 09:46 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Unofortunately being totally standards compliant is a no option in most cases, it still is the problem that 85% of the users use broken IE versions instead of more standard compliants browsers. Now if you break those browsers by using the official standards and add the explanation and download links, you sill will get the support calls, the angry mails and the smack on your head.
The problem is, that it is you who has to do the suppot cover the beating etc... you not Microsoft, who always weasel their way out.

Face it, if you start a project the normal case is, that you code for the standards and then hack for IE so that your users still can see it. It is the most likely option of being able to have a system up and running in a few years time. If you hack against IE from start on, you will end up in a mess in a few years time.

Reply Score: 1

Doesnt anyone see the irony
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 09:57 UTC
Anonymous
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They are so non-standards compliant that they're own browser doesnt self comply... Hey world! We're updating, so beware!

Reply Score: 0

(Still) W3C power ...
by jmjjg on Sun 17th Jul 2005 11:52 UTC
jmjjg
Member since:
2005-07-17

One can use conditional comments very effectively, have (almost, except for some alt's for instance) standards compliant pages, and serve IE some specific changes to the original content.
Is as easy as adding [if IE] ... [endif] between HTML comments. You just put all IE specific code in the middle and you're happy.
Here's an article about it :
http://www.dithered.com/css_filters/html_only/conditional_comments_...
We use it at work for a rewrite of one of our sites (in French) :
http://clpsct.org/nouveau/index.php
In my opinion, this solution is much better than server-side detection, but it still requires you to be careful if you use any version number [I know I did somewhere, but where was that, damnit ;-) ].

Reply Score: 1

...
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 12:06 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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> Tell'm to get a real browser, and that you don't
> support Internet Explorer's lack of features.
>
> Tell them to call Microsoft Support, and ask for a fix.
>
> Send them a link to firefox.

... and ... (different posting)

> What can you do as webdeveloper when IE7 doesnt fix
> your problems? Very easy. Remove the IE specific
> hacks on your site and add a news about why the IE
> users doesnt see the correct page (with many links
> and informations). Dont forget to add the Microsoft
> support hotline number and tell them to call it!

The only thing you would achieve with such tactics is to scare users off your site. They would also recognize that despite IE's "lack of features", other sites display correctly. Furthermore, most users don't know what a browser is and how to install Firefox, nor do they want to deal with MS's support center.

If you want to make people use Firefox, then I suggest thinking their way, and not force them to think your way (and I support that intention by all means since we do need better, standards compliant browsers).

- Morin

Reply Score: 1

IE is the best browser ever
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 16:05 UTC
Anonymous
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FireFox is not even close to IE when it comes to features and speed.

Reply Score: 0

Developers prepare for IE7?
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 17:03 UTC
Anonymous
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*Developers* prepare? Hey, here's an idea: how about MICROSOFT preparing IE7 for us? We've been fighting with IE's crummy box model and lousy CSS support for years (and they practically *invented* CSS!).

Reply Score: 0

5 years too late
by Anonymous on Sun 17th Jul 2005 19:32 UTC
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So the proprietary Microseft Internet Explorer will offer what the rest of the world has offered for 5+ years. Wow, talk about innovation Mr. Balmer.

Reply Score: 0

IE7
by pravda on Sun 17th Jul 2005 21:40 UTC
pravda
Member since:
2005-07-06

Microsoft should have to do the work of keeping IE7 backward compatible with IE6.

Or maybe IE7, if it actually implements web standards (vs. a press release saying they will) can pretend it is Firefox.

The day and age of gagging when Microsoft's crappy technology is forced down everyone's throats is coming to an end. Very soon.

Reply Score: 1

Re:IE is the best browser ever
by gwen on Sun 17th Jul 2005 23:51 UTC
gwen
Member since:
2005-07-08

Ok weirdo. IE is an outdated browser with crippled capabilities. It can't even do css well as others have mentioned. FireFox, Konq, Safari, and Opera have loads of features that IE hasn't matched yet.

Reply Score: 1

IE7 is no solution
by Anonymous on Mon 18th Jul 2005 09:05 UTC
Anonymous
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Let us not forget, according to Microsoft there will be NO IE7 FOR WINDOWS 2000!!!
What this means is that, unless IE compatibility is actively dropped as a requirement, all those challenged users out there will keep old versions of crippled IE6 and IE5.
So, I agree that the IE compatibility be scrapped, because this will force the non-XP, non-Longhore users to adopt better alternatives for their own good.

Reply Score: 0

RE: IE7 is no solution
by Anonymous on Tue 19th Jul 2005 10:24 UTC in reply to "IE7 is no solution"
Anonymous Member since:
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No IE for Windows 2000? That's going to be a shame for the 40% + of Business users still running it, sorry no, not for the users, for MS in their attempt to get onto XP/Longhorn.

Reply Score: 0