Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 19th Aug 2005 20:45 UTC, submitted by mmadia
Zeta It appears that Marcus Overhagen, a well-known BeOS developer, has been recieving threats from YellowTAB. Marcus writes: "Using an alleged NDA (non disclosure agreement) breach, he promises to undertake everything that is possible to sue me. He claimes that even this mail is protected by the NDA that I signed with Yellowtab, but I'm certain that it doesn't apply here. At the end, he says that a copy of that mail was sent to their lawyer, who is now checking legal measures against me."
Order by: Score:
Sad
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:02 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Isn't it a bit early for YellowTab to start acting like MS or Apple?

Reply Score: 5

RE: Sad
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:36 UTC in reply to "Sad"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Isn't it a bit early for YellowTab to start acting like MS or Apple?

Yes, it is. It doesn't really matter once you get big enough so that you don't have to give a shit anymore about what your customers think, but YT isn't even close to that, and probably never will be.

Reply Score: 0

Fun and games...
by binarycrusader on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:04 UTC
binarycrusader
Member since:
2005-07-06

It's all fun and games until you involve money, then people start acting strangely. I hope that both parties can work this out, because in the end the Be community will lose if they cannot.

Reply Score: 4

Sickening
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:09 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

YellowTab is worse than Microsoft. I always knew they were a shady outfit.

Reply Score: 1

off guard
by Thom_Holwerda on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:09 UTC
Thom_Holwerda
Member since:
2005-06-29

This news kinda caught me off guard, to be honest.

This behaviour doesn't fit well with the Be spirit (whatever that means). I'm a huge BeOS fan, even used it as my main desktop for a long time (then I got a Mac ;) ), and with Zeta R1 I finally had the feeling of having an up-to-date BeOS desktop again.

If this news really proves to have substance (you never know if this is solved quickly), I will stop using Zeta.

Reply Score: 5

RE: off guard
by gmiranda on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:26 UTC in reply to "off guard"
gmiranda Member since:
2005-07-06

That's just what I thought, I have no interest on support people that threatens developers, even if that means that I won't be using an updated BeOS for months or years. I've tried Zeta, most liked it, but do they really expect that we buy Zeta? That mail seems to be written by Don Corleone, I don't like that, they won't get my euros.

Reply Score: 2

RE: off guard
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:39 UTC in reply to "off guard"
Anonymous Member since:
---

The problem with this kind of disputes is, that most of the time you won't here about them. This clearly lies in the nature of the way one of the disputees acts: While his contrahent is a private person who will pay personaly for every mistake he makes, the other one is backed by the full power and responsibility of his company. So the question is: Is this the first time, an exception like a bad mood and a quick draw of a person that is suffering from his high responsibility or is it just the top of the iceberg?

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: off guard
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:44 UTC in reply to "RE: off guard"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Read one of the comments on http://haikudev.blogspot.com/2005/08/threatening-mail-by-yellowtab.... and you know that it is the tip of the iceberg:
"Marcus, you have my deepest respect for being the first of us to publish the truth."

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: off guard
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 03:32 UTC in reply to "RE: off guard"
Anonymous Member since:
---

I assure you, this is _NOT_ the first time.

Reply Score: 0

wow
by tastytaste on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:09 UTC
tastytaste
Member since:
2005-07-08

.. well that's one way to make sure your fringe OS doesn't ever gain ground.

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous
Member since:
---

YellowTab needs to go down hard for this type of behavior.

Reply Score: 1

present_arms
Member since:
2005-07-09

I will be watching to see how this pans out..

Reply Score: 1

Out of the blue
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:19 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

It's somewhat alarming how something like this can come out of the blue. Maybe Bernd just had a rough day...

Reply Score: 0

Dear Lord...
by Andrew Youll on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:19 UTC
Andrew Youll
Member since:
2005-06-29

This is ludacris, have you read a comment on the blog, from a guy who was talking about an IRC convo where Bernd, supposedly threated to sue someone over an NDA they'd never heard of or signed...

Seems Intelligence is a virtue which some lack.

Reply Score: 5

spelling
by Anonymous on Tue 23rd Aug 2005 05:34 UTC in reply to "Dear Lord..."
Anonymous Member since:
---

Correction, it's ludicrous. That one made me laugh ;)

Reply Score: 0

If its true
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:20 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Then its the beginning of the end for yellowtab, because community will put them into shame and make them look like a bunch of clowns.

Reply Score: 1

Give it up
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:21 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Hmm, does everyone do their laundry in public?

Reply Score: 0

RE: Give it up
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 23:45 UTC in reply to "Give it up"
Anonymous Member since:
---

No, it used to be only the so called Amiga community, but now we can obviously say "Welcome BeOS - now all your base are belong to the past as well!".

Truely sad to see the scavangers bickering over the small pieces.

Reply Score: 0

v i changed my mind
by present_arms on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:23 UTC
RE: i changed my mind
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:28 UTC in reply to "i changed my mind"
Anonymous Member since:
---

What the heck does BeOS have to do with this?

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: i changed my mind
by present_arms on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:32 UTC in reply to "RE: i changed my mind"
present_arms Member since:
2005-07-09

sorry Zeta, it's Filesystem is Befs and linux told me it was a BeOS partition, i had this on my mind when i wrote my comment, sorry for the confusion

Reply Score: 1

YT will be floundering if attack is unfounded
by Steve on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:38 UTC
Steve
Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, the only people buying their software is enthuaists from the community. Don't you think they would know better than to undiscrimantly attack the community?

I have a feeling that YellowTab are on the right side of this issue. But if they are on the wrong here... Time to sell that stock and get out now. The company just lost its audience. ;p

Reply Score: 1

argh
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:44 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

what a shame, i won't buy zeta, rather i will buy Amiga or C128D !

Reply Score: 0

If this is true
by mario on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:53 UTC
mario
Member since:
2005-07-06

...this is terrible news. And definitely, this is YT shooting themselves in the foot. They are crazy, they need Haiku in order to evolve.

Reply Score: 1

RE: If this is true
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 13:57 UTC in reply to "If this is true"
Anonymous Member since:
---

I totally agree that yT relies on haiku. They can survive in the long term and be safe be replacing all proprietary
code with haiku components. If they truely go on like this they are f$cked !!!

Reply Score: 0

v Anonymous
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:56 UTC
RE: Anonymous
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 22:06 UTC in reply to "Anonymous"
Anonymous Member since:
---

He didn't sign a NDA. Read the article.

Reply Score: 0

Do not sign any NDA!
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 22:22 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Besides, this NDA problem is not new. In the German Yellowtab forums (http://yellowtab.de/phorum/phorum.php?read,325,120343,page=1) there is a posting of a frustrated user, because his SIS 7018 is not working under Zeta. This user contacted the developer S.Zharski by email and was totally surprised about the answer:
"The mentioned problem is old sound API of BeOS that was used for this driver. It looks like Zeta does not contain support of such API. To support this hardware I have to know an API used in Zeta. I have neither such information nor Zeta system installation. yT requires from me a signed Non-Disclosure Agreement to get access to developer Zeta builds.
I do not want to signup anything with them.
About this driver. I hopefully write a normal (playing/recording/multichannel) driver for Haiku System. But not in the nearest future. "
So he did not sign any NDA and, therefore, there will be no driver for Zeta. That might be Zeta's future in general.

Reply Score: 1

go figure
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 22:32 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

I've had some dealings with Bernd in the past. Nothing major, but he did seem to be unreliable and struck me as a bit of a used car salesman-type always trying to get an advantage over you. When I heard he was the one who started yT, I was surprised that he could manage such an undertaking. This news saddens me, but also is not very surprising considering. Marcus is a long time BeOS contributer from back in the old days and I have great respect for him and his work. Given what I know of Bernd and what I know of Marcus, I can't help but side with Marcus.

Reply Score: 2

Forum post about this here
by nacs on Fri 19th Aug 2005 22:52 UTC
nacs
Member since:
2005-07-10

Here's a forum post at Yellowtab regarding this topic:

http://yellowtab.com/phorum/phorum.php?read,5,121086

Reply Score: 2

v OSNews, this can NOT be done!
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 22:54 UTC
RE: OSNews, this can NOT be done!
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 23:17 UTC in reply to "OSNews, this can NOT be done!"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Someone should carefully translate the german mail Bernd wrote. This is not about sueing Marcus for some damage he has done while breaking the NDA:

"Ich lasse gerade rechtlich prüfen in wie weit wir gegen Dich vorgehen können. Auch deshalb weil Du ja den NDA gebrochen hast. SOLLTE yT die Möglichkeit haben Dich zu verklagen so kann ich Dir versichern das ich ALLES daran setzen werde das es passieren wird."

What he says here is, that on his behalf it is checked wether there is a way to legally act against Marcus. ALSO because he has broken the NDA. If there is a way for yT to sue him he definitely wants to do everything to do that.

This is clearly not about getting paid for damage that has been done, this is about finding a way of revenge and the NDA is just a way to do that. What makes me really wonder is: Which breach of NDA is Bernd referring to? It looks like all this started when Marcus told a different story about the happenings with AVM than Bernd. Is this all that is needed to make that guy hunt down someone who has done for all of us, especially including yellowTab themselves in such a shameful way?

If this is really it, everyone amongst us critisizing yellowTab in a forum could be the next to be sued.

Reply Score: 4

RE: OSNews, this can NOT be done!
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 23:21 UTC in reply to "OSNews, this can NOT be done!"
Anonymous Member since:
---

So it will be highly unlikely that Marcus did not sign an NDA. But if either he did or didn't,
=====

Funny, Mr. Anonymous-at-the-same-IP, in your previous comment there was no question in your mind that he signed an NDA. You can say you'd rather not air his dirty laudry in public, but isn't that his decision to make if he's not under NDA?

And how is OSNews story slanted? At the very least there is some rudeness emanating from the world of YT, surely you won't dispute that.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
---

...At the very least there is some rudeness emanating from the world of YT, surely you won't dispute that...

That is, if we knew both sides of the whole story, we could take such a conclusion.

If only one site is enlighted and you take it for granted, it *is* slanted. Or, where can I find yellowTAB's site of this story?

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
---

"Or, where can I find yellowTAB's site of this story?"

Well then, why don't you enlighten us? ;)

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
---

Dear 82.157.100.---,

the point is, that yT tried to keep this story under the hood. So what you currently demand is, that OSNews should just ignore it as long as yT wants to keep it secret? This is not exactly the way press should work. One of the major tasks of the press is to enlight the happenings, not to protect those who want to hide something.

Please reread the OSNews article. Starting with "It appears that..." is NOT taking something for granted. If you're not a native speaker, please recheck your translation.

It's also difficult to look at "both sides" as long as postings in the yT-forum are removed faster than they are written.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous (IP: 82.157.100.---)
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 23:12 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Hmmm... same person posting two negative comments - thought he English in the second has improved ;-)

Hello Bernd..

Reply Score: 0

RE:OSNews, this can NOT be done!
by pedroeloy on Fri 19th Aug 2005 23:18 UTC
pedroeloy
Member since:
2005-07-06

Have to agree with you, the title of the news item is completely misleading and partial.

"YellowTAB Threatens BeOS/Haiku Developers?"

a) Developers??? Its just one guy!

b) BeOS/Haiku developers? That's not the reason he was "threatened"! The title doesn't mention the most important information, the reason yellowtab threatened him...

c) "Threatened"???, It's common business practice, if you have any legal reasoning, to try to force someone to respect a previous agreement.

So please, change the title of the news to something like:

BeOS developer denies violating his NDA with YellowTab

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous Member since:
---

Or why not "YellowTab lies about NDA for revenge"? Remember all you have is this disreputeable looking fellows word on that there even *was* an NDA..

Reply Score: 0

Daniel Borgmann Member since:
2005-07-08

Have to agree with you, the title of the news item is completely misleading and partial.

I agree. After reading the mail, the title clearly should have been "lunatic in charge of Yellow Tab".

Bad spelling, trying-to-be-intimidating formulations, amazing display of ignorance ("this mail is covered under NDA" yeah right...) and vague threats of legal action unfortunately remind me all too well of other german business men I had the misfortune to deal with. One actually sued me for not wanting to pay a service I didn't ask for (he lost). This behavior shouldn't be tolerated and thus I think it's very appropriate for this laundry to be done in public.

I sincerely hope that these kind of individuals are not exclusive to our country, otherwise I'd begin to get worried about the air we are breathing. ;)

Reply Score: 2

Bernd's spelling
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 23:22 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Well, at least now I know that Bernd's spelling is as atrocious in German as it is in English. Less grammar mistakes though.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Bernd's spelling
by Ethyriel on Sat 20th Aug 2005 01:03 UTC in reply to "Bernd's spelling"
Ethyriel Member since:
2005-07-07

That would be, 'There are fewer grammatical mistakes, though.'
;)

sorry, I had to
mod this down

Reply Score: 2

RE: OSNews, this can NOT be done!
by pedroeloy on Fri 19th Aug 2005 23:40 UTC
pedroeloy
Member since:
2005-07-06

Everything points to the fact that he signed a NDA so why should he post this on his blog?:

"He claimes that even this mail is protected by the NDA that I signed with Yellowtab, but I'm certain that it doesn't apply here."

So.... the logic conclusion: he signed an NDA.

But nonetheless it seems logical to "warn" someone before taking such extreme matters, and in this case YellowTab behaved even worse than him...

Reply Score: 1

.
by Anonymous on Fri 19th Aug 2005 23:55 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

The best part of this is that it makes the people *running* yT look bad.

So even if yT goes under or simple becomes tarnished in the eyes of many, it's only the decision makers that get burned.

The developers who are paid by yT to code should not be strung up, as they're not responsible for their boss's actions.

Reply Score: 1

Not a bit surprised.
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 01:02 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

This is not the first time they've screwed BeOS developers. This will not be the last.

YellowTab has been shady, dishonest, decietfull, and full of B.S. from the word Go. As a BeOS developer, if I had a choice between death via torture on The Rack or working for Yellow Tab, I'd choose The Rack. At least then I have a good idea of how things will turn out, and my asshole will still be puckered (despite my libs being torn off).

Reply Score: 0

Dear Bernd
by cypress on Sat 20th Aug 2005 01:33 UTC
cypress
Member since:
2005-07-11

Dear Bernd. I really hope you'll go bankrupt. I hope Haiku will outwin Zeta one day and you-ll start loosing money. I don't hope your attitude will change since I saw your tipical German coldness at CeBIT this year, but what I do pray for is that no true BeOS fan will send you money for that petty excuse of a BeOS clone that you sell.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Dear Bernd
by Luposian on Sat 20th Aug 2005 18:06 UTC in reply to "Dear Bernd"
Luposian Member since:
2005-07-27

"Dear Bernd. I really hope you'll go bankrupt. I hope Haiku will outwin Zeta one day and you-ll start loosing money. I don't hope your attitude will change since I saw your tipical German coldness at CeBIT this year, but what I do pray for is that no true BeOS fan will send you money for that petty excuse of a BeOS clone that you sell."

I couldn't have said it better myself... way to go, Cypress!

Reply Score: 1

Disappointing
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 03:22 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Looks like I can stop putting together the system I was going to install Zeta on...I will no longer be buying it. Haiku is so much more appealing right now.

Reply Score: 0

SCREW THAT!
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 04:09 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

screw yellowtab, now they are obviously getting greedy and seeing all these Open Souce ventures as a threat.

In a real Free Market, they would be out of luck.

Reply Score: 0

Misc
by JLF65 on Sat 20th Aug 2005 04:12 UTC
JLF65
Member since:
2005-07-06

You tend to get behavior like this from two types of companies: huge companies who are scared of being knocked off the top by competition, and tiny companies on the verge of going under. Which does yT sound like?

There is no way an NDA can cover email. Case after case after case has clearly demonstrated that senders and receivers of email have NO REASONABLE EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY on this form of communication. People have taken their employers to court for reading or censoring their email and have lost EVERY SINGLE case. The only way you can do private communication across the net is via encrypted attached files.

As far as "airing dirty laundry in public" is concerned, bringing the bad dealings of companies to the public is the only way to warn others in many cases. This is called whistle-blowing and considered a civic duty. It's unfortunate that often the whistle-blower is the one some people take to task, spouting nonsense about keeping "dirty laundry" away from the public.

Reply Score: 5

I want my money back
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 06:48 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

About a month a go I have buyed a copy of YellowTab.
I am not satisfied and after reading this news I am also disgusted.
I'll ask YT to have my money back and then I'll donate the same amount to Haiku project.

Reply Score: 2

We need another Distro!
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 06:52 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

I'd like BeOS and it's clones back in the hands of the French and other caring Germans like Marcus Overhagen,
and Americans like Looncraz (and of cource all the other world wide developers)

You look at Yellowtab it smells like third rate German scam outfit. Any two person German linux distro has more class than them.

We need another Distro based on Haiku code, I wish I could do it. Different OS I know but if SkyOS can gain ground, so can another Haiku based distro.

Reply Score: 0

RE: We need another Distro!
by danB on Sat 20th Aug 2005 07:55 UTC in reply to "We need another Distro!"
danB Member since:
2005-08-20

You look at Yellowtab it smells like third rate German scam outfit. Any two person German linux distro has more class than them.

Hmmm... sounds as if you aren't very fond of german software... ?

Reply Score: 1

Untrue assumption on your part.
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 09:13 UTC in reply to "RE: We need another Distro!"
Anonymous Member since:
---

...that is not true, I'm not fond of Yellowtab's dealings, peoples fears of them are being realised.

I wish Yellowtab where honest, sadly it's not the case.

Reply Score: 0

RE: We need another Distro!
by nathan_c on Sat 20th Aug 2005 14:32 UTC in reply to "We need another Distro!"
nathan_c Member since:
2005-07-12

We don't need another distro ... we just need Haiku to become usable and a viable solution in some market place so that its development can sustain itself by sponsors and donations.

Don't be quick with running down the linux-multi-distro path. The linux world is very free, but at the same time its growth and acceptance has been severely hindered by its split nature. (Don't get me wrong - I'm a huge linux fan, but I'm not blind to its faults.)

Keep Haiku and related BeOS projects closely nit, and you will achieve the goal of usable, commercial software much more quickly. If I were Bernd, I would drop all development on Zeta and port as much as legally possible to Haiku and have their developers work on finishing that project. They would make far more money being an applications developer for Haiku than trying to complete with them. The OS will become commoditized and the value-adds will be the unique apps that are developed.

Anyway, as far as this dispute goes, yT should have known that threatening open source developers is a very bad PR (even if they are right) move because the only defense the open source developer has is the publicity of the community. The lesson here - if something's secrecy is *so* important that you feel you need to protect it with an NDA, then don't share it with those outside the company. You'll save yourself an amazing amount of time and stress. :-)

Reply Score: 1

RE: We need another Distro!
by Anonymous on Mon 22nd Aug 2005 13:23 UTC in reply to "We need another Distro!"
Anonymous Member since:
---

eh eh ...

We already have a new distro ;)
It's called Developper Edition 2.1, and it's mainly based on haiku working parts. Also, a lot of ports are done and included, such as fixes for Abiword or others...

You can give it a try by downloading it at this address:
http://www.testou.net/index.php?page=downloads&action=telecharger&l...

(remember that it's a french distro, so some words could be in french, or softwares presetedin french after a fresh install)

Reply Score: 0

v NDAs
by stew on Sat 20th Aug 2005 07:18 UTC
I support Marcus!
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 08:15 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

I have been involved with Zeta and Bernd, and i know how he can be. I just get angry when i think about it. I removed my BeOS years ago because of him. Marcus stand strong im sure you will get support from most peoples in the BeOS community!

Reply Score: 0

Bring ON Haiku
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 08:30 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

I will support what will be the most benneficial to bringing BeOS computing experience to the world. YellowTab has had the chance for 4 years to do that and nada. Their actions have been small and petty.

My support is for Haiku for what that's worth. (-:

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
---

Yesterday one member of the German BeOS User Group (DEBUG) tried to post an article about the Yellowtab-Overhagen incident:
http://www.beusergroup.de/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=forum&board=beos...
He writes:
"Ich versuchte bereits gestern Abend zu diesem Thema hier im Forum zu posten. Mit dem Ergebnis, dass innerhalb kürzester Zeit mein Posting gelöscht wurde - und mein gesamter Useraccount (...) direkt mit dazu. User (...) existiert auf der DeBUG nicht mehr. Ich hoffe, dass dies nun nicht nochmal passiert... ansonsten ist die DeBUG-Webseite sinnlos, solange sie nicht in anderen Händen liegt."
"I tried to post a comment on this whole topic yesterday with the result that my posting was deleted in a very short amount of time and my user account (...) was deleted as well. User (...) does not exist any more on the DEBUG. I hope that this will not happen again, otherwise the DEBUG website does not make sense any longer, as long as it is not owned by other hands."
The German DEBUG is currently "owned" and maintained by Bernd Korz.

Reply Score: 0

I am not surprised
by Kaya Memisoglu on Sat 20th Aug 2005 09:14 UTC
Kaya Memisoglu
Member since:
2005-07-06

I really have to admit that I am not surprised about Bernd Korz's reaction.

When yellowtab began their work, I was hoping that BeOS would come to a new life and that they would invest some considerable amount of work into improving BeOS. But soon I had to observe three facts that do not fit very well together:

1. yT isn't improving BeOS very much - instead they are taking resources from the community and integrate them into Zeta. Be honset - most programs done by yT are not very useable, whereas most really good programs bundeled with Zeta are freeware or 3rd party products. This is a very sad outcome after years of development.

2. At the same time as yT incorporate freeware products they do not do very much for these developers. See the last case with Marcus Overhagen, one of the most important and productive members of the community when it comes to true development. Zeta heavily relies on his work and he deserves much more than a ridiculou piece of hardware worth 1.500EUR. yT does not want to pay good money for good work to developers, instead they seem to see all the Haiku people as stupid folks that can be exploited without paying for it.

3. The most strange observation is the fact that despite Zeta does not hold its original promises and yT is doing a rather poor job, a big part of the community is a big fan of them - ignoring the continuous misbehaviour of Bernd Korz, ignoring the obscene price you have to pay for updates (originally I understood that I had to pay 10EUR for handling and shipping, but it turned out that shipping is not included - YT does not need to support "early adoptors"), ignoring the lousy quality of their product (each release has a bunch of new bugs). How can a community be so blind?

Two or three years ago I was thinking about developing some software for Zeta, but as soon as I was confronted with the reality of YT I quickly changed my plans. Even if I do some software later, I will write into the license that it may not be bundeled with any YT product. In my eyes it is time to show YT on whom they are depending. If Haiku made a similar license, YT would get some severe problems.

I wish my best to Marcus Overhagen!

Reply Score: 3

The BeOS community is dead.
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 09:15 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Community is:
Being helpful.
Respecting people who don't share your opinion.
Tolerance and forgiveness.
People with different backgrounds and goals sharing the same passion.

Community is not:
Flamewars.
Piracy.
Boycott.
Personal attacks.

I came to the sad conclusion that there is no BeOS community any more.

Reply Score: 1

RE: The BeOS community is dead.
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 09:46 UTC in reply to "The BeOS community is dead."
Anonymous Member since:
---

As there is no BeOS anymore

Reply Score: 0

RE: The BeOS community is "almost" dead.
by vasper on Sat 20th Aug 2005 09:54 UTC in reply to "The BeOS community is dead."
vasper Member since:
2005-07-22

The problem is with human failing.

From one hand you have a good programmer, Marcus, that was insulted by a post in his log, he falsly attributed to Bernd (Bernd cannot write such good english as the anonymous poster by the way). Marcus had to defend his honor, but he should have found another way.

Now on the other hand, we have Bernd who is responsible not only for himself (it would have been easy to respond if he was), but for an entire company. He doesn't have time or the will to be personal, so he responed in the legal manner in which he did.

My belief is that both are wrong. They should work together, not against each other, because they are killing BeOS.

As for the NDA, it is a normal bussiness procedure. I have signed one with the company I work with, and even if I hadn't, what the NDA said, is what I would have done anyway.

In response to an earlier post about a developer that was asked to sign an NDA to be given access to Zeta development, what people don't understand is that Zeta is using BeOS 6 api. The depricated driver API or BeOS 3 was removed from Be and now only the API from v4 and upwards is valid. The developer could just have bought Zeta instead of singing the NDA to be provided with it free of charge and continue development of his driver using the documented BeOS 5 api.

Reply Score: 3

BERND KROTZ
by Yomama on Sat 20th Aug 2005 10:03 UTC
Yomama
Member since:
2005-07-21

A year ago I watched a video with Mr. Krotz displaying ZETA in Japan.
It was just embarrassing. The lanquage Mr. Krotz used didn't convince me of him being a reputable person. Even though I don't follow Zeta or Haiku this doesn't come as a big surpise.

What kind of CEO writes such an email to an developer or allegedly posts rude comments at his blog. Mr. Krotz you are not leader and all this just make you look bad in front of the community and your own yellowtab developers. You are biting the hand that feeds you.

Reply Score: 1

v Surrender
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 10:04 UTC
Did he really violated NDA?
by andriymak on Sat 20th Aug 2005 10:15 UTC
andriymak
Member since:
2005-07-12

If so, he MUST be sued. This violation makes him unreliable, dangerous and useless for any project or organization that practices NDAs (like nearly any of commercial organizations).

If he didn't, he should sue tellowTab for damaging his professional image and so on.

I personally (like probably any OpenBSD user) don't think NDA is a good thing to be. But if you agreed, you must respect the rules.

Andriy

Reply Score: 1

Palm
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 10:37 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

What is Palm's position on this whole Yellowtab thing? Why have they never made any public announcements or comments about the situation? Isn't everything that was BEOS now owned by them? I just don't understand why if there is some agreement between the two companies, why Palm hasn't said anything about it. What's with all the secretcy?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Palm
by andriymak on Sat 20th Aug 2005 10:57 UTC in reply to "Palm"
andriymak Member since:
2005-07-12

According to this (in german): http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/60481 YellowTab bought BeOS source code licence and further development rights from Palm.

Andriy Makarevych

Reply Score: 2

RE: Palm
by Anonymous on Mon 22nd Aug 2005 13:59 UTC in reply to "Palm"
Anonymous Member since:
---

What is Palm's position on this whole Yellowtab thing? Why have they never made any public announcements or comments about the situation? Isn't everything that was BEOS now owned by them? I just don't understand why if there is some agreement between the two companies, why Palm hasn't said anything about it. What's with all the secretcy?

I think yellowTab has bought a lot of sourcecode to Palm, and i wouldn't be very amazed that yT makes Palm sign a paper that they are not allowed to talk about what yT has or not.
I had try to know a lot about the things yT has or not, and get in contact with some well-standing-to-talk peoples about it ... and i finally thought to make a public article about what i've read. First, i asked to all people involved in it if it was ok for them.
On the yT side, the press relation quarter told me that if this article could hurt the company at some way, they would sue me.
On the Palm side, no answers to my emails since that day.

So to me, it's clear that yT wants to hide something. The real question is what ! But it's clear that when you are a new company, using some code and trying to be the leader of a 10 years-old community, the ostrich policy is not the best way to be appreciate !

And about the Markus problem, yes, yT shows again its poor relation abilities. But if Markus has broke an NDA, so he is wrong too...

Reply Score: 0

What the community really is
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 10:55 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Either "the community" is the developers that work on the software as a hobby, and bring something on to the table. This is the view that I have. Or "the community" is a selfish mob of freeloaders. This is the "community" that is assumed when it is mentioned in print and media.

"The community" of freeloaders, the wider "open source community", is defined as being noisy, easily excited and incited, wanting everything for free, mouthing off for eveyone who is giving something away, and mouthing off against anybody who is holding something back.

There is a community. A small, true community for every OSS project. Combined, they form a bigger, true OSS community. Running open source software makes fanboys, and that is the way the freeloaders ought to be called. Just having something for free doesn't make you part of any community.

I know I am a freeloader. I'm not on par with Linus Torvalds or any Wine or HaikuOS or FreeBSD developer. I thus accept my position as a freeloader and a fanboy, and will critically examine the movement, file bugreports and provide information for those considering the use of open source software. I will refuse to be part of the mindless and noisy mob of anarchist freeloader utopia.

That said, I do not like YellowTab, and I'm waiting for HaikuOS, to use it as good as I can. I am sure HaikuOS will be better in every way compared to YellowTab, and the real competition will probably be between SkyOS and HaikuOS.

I'm just disillusioned, dissatisfied, dis-anything of Microsoft, YellowTab and other heavy-handed corporations. And I will behave accordingly. But disliking a rogue corporation makes me no more part of the community than running linux makes me a big hacker or a brother in arms and a beloved comrade of actual kernel developers.

There will be BeOS. There is still a place for a beautiful desktop OS, from technical and user experience standpoint.

Reply Score: 2

RE: What the community really is
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 11:30 UTC in reply to "What the community really is"
Anonymous Member since:
---

>I know I am a freeloader

Thats sad because, I have not coffed up money for some scam makes someone a freeloader?

Fanboy pay in being... just fans.
if that is what floats your boat fine.

I'm not a free loader, nor a fanboy.
I like the Haiku concept (there is better way to make an OS), and when the time is right I will give what I can be it monetary or what ever.

Yellowtab for me smell of something, I can not pinpoint it.

Reply Score: 0

Zeta
by Sauron on Sat 20th Aug 2005 12:29 UTC
Sauron
Member since:
2005-08-02

You just lost another customer Bernd! I was going to but now will not be buying Zeta! Bye bye...

Reply Score: 2

v Sick
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 13:09 UTC
The sound of inevitability
by Nicholas Blachford on Sat 20th Aug 2005 13:32 UTC
Nicholas Blachford
Member since:
2005-07-06

Has Bernd taking management lessons from Commodore or something? Suing, or even just threatening it is not not conductive to good community relations.

I suppose this sort of thing was inevitable, a commercial and open source version of the same thing are going to compete.

The question is, do the involved parties really want this to turn into a situation like the Amiga community?

They really need to step back and think about this.

Ultimately Haiku is probably seen as a threat by yT, yT have developer tools and apps they could sell as third party apps for Haiku. This is how the more successful embedded OSs have responded to Linux.

Reply Score: 1

RE: The sound of inevitability
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 15:23 UTC in reply to "The sound of inevitability "
Anonymous Member since:
---

yellowTAB has no developer tools they've created or bought the rights to that they can distribute and sell as their own (legally) because all tools thus far available are open source, or not theirs to sell. That, however, doesn't seem to have stopped them in the past from doing such things: look at the CodeLiege incident for an example of them selling something as theirs that they had no permission to do. BeIDE is not really theirs, it isn't new, etc. and is very basic. MeTOS is of very poor quality and limited functionality, and is also GPL. Having looked at the code in the past, the developer doesn't need to worry about it being stolen by a commercial developer, except maybe yellowTAB ;)

yellowTAB at this time is searching for tool developers so they can have an updated IDE to sell. You see, they most likely don't have full rights to the BeIDE source code, regardless of their claims for BeOS otherwise, because Be only wrote a small portion of it. I personally expect they will have a very difficult time getting a developer to fill the requirements they're looking for to create a RAD IDE for several reasons.

Reply Score: 0

This Headline is a Bit Misleading
by Android Fan on Sat 20th Aug 2005 13:35 UTC
Android Fan
Member since:
2005-08-20

A developer has a personal, minor tiff with yellowTab, and it makes headlines at OSNews?

I think it overstates what Mr. Korz says to characterize it that Korz "promises to undertake everything possible to sue me." Korz says in the email (incidently it's not real professional to publicize business and personal emails) that he is going to have a lawyer check what the developer said to consider legal actions. It has to do with what Korz thinks are NDA violations by the developer Mr. Overhagen.

As far as I can tell the background is that Overhagen develops some driver for hardware yellowTab doesn't support anymore because of issues they have with the manufacturer. So Overhagen has a reason to feel frustrated and out in the cold. There is also an anonymous entry at Overhagen's blog that he claims without proof (he says it's in his style) is by Korz. Korz denies he wrote the blog entry. So part of Korz' frustration is Overhagen claims he posted the anonymous blog entry.

There's more soap opera and bickering from both men and sure Korz should not have brought up the possibility of legal actions, but there is not enough here in my view to justify headlines at OSNews.

I recently bought Zeta and am real happy with it. I'll continue to use it and recommend it to people who are interested in alternative OSs.

Reply Score: 1

Please calm down
by marcusoverhagen on Sat 20th Aug 2005 14:07 UTC
marcusoverhagen
Member since:
2005-08-20

I already posted an update at my blog, but I want to clear things a bit up here, too.

Nothing related to AVM, ISDN, DVB-T or SATA development that is described in my blog is covered by a NDA signed with Yellowtab. In his email, Bernd Korz refers to another incidence that is unrelated to this blog, when threatening to sue me after he got angry about the AVM article I wrote.

The deleting of comments at the german beos user group website has not been done by Bernd Korz, it was someone else.

Velcro_SP you write that "part of Korz' frustration is Overhagen claims he posted the anonymous blog entry." This is bullshit, as he sent me the mail about 8 hours after the anonymous comment #3 was written, and then about 20 hours later, I wrote the blog article, quoting his mail and mentioning the anonymous comment.

I was deeply hurt by his email, and his attempt to at the same time conceal it by a NDA.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Please calm down
by Android Fan on Sat 20th Aug 2005 17:10 UTC in reply to "Please calm down"
Android Fan Member since:
2005-08-20

"Velcro_SP you write that "part of Korz' frustration is Overhagen claims he posted the anonymous blog entry." This is bullshit, as he sent me the mail about 8 hours after the anonymous comment #3 was written, and then about 20 hours later, I wrote the blog article, quoting his mail and mentioning the anonymous comment."

@marcusoverhagen

I wasn't clear on the timing of it. Maybe it did not influence his email, but surely he is frustrated with it.

Reply Score: 1

YellowTab == Amiga Inc
by nicholas on Sat 20th Aug 2005 14:52 UTC
nicholas
Member since:
2005-07-07

Leeches, one and all.

Reply Score: 1

Re:
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 15:14 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Well... i think R1 was the last Zeta version i bought. I Just hope Haiku will be usable soon...

Reply Score: 0

I hate religious zealots...
by soapdog on Sat 20th Aug 2005 15:19 UTC
soapdog
Member since:
2005-07-25

Heck, this story was told in a very bad way. From the start there was a good nice side of Marcus who creates blessed F/OSS, in the other, germans doing damn commercial software "using be engineers works".

For the love of God, they bought the source!!! it is legal. People here are saying very evil things about Bernd. How many here know him? I am Brazilian and met with Bernd when he was here showing Zeta. He is a very dedicated man, passionate about BeOS and his job. He explodes easily when he is angry, but I seen worse things in the world. Without YellowTAB there would be no BeOS and Haiku would be in a very early stage. One thing that no one seem to remember here is that YellowTAB is paying sallary to two of the Haiku developers and allowing them to keep working on Haiku. When IBM or Apple do stuff like this, everyone talks about how great they are. YellowTAB is much much smaller and no one seem to be thanking them.

Also, Marcus is not the Haiku, Bernd is not all of YellowTAB, we don't know what happened between them. People here are shouting and burning zeta partitions while chanting imagine. Heck, YellowTAB is here and now, and is working and if it folds to death there will be no BeOS. Developers inside YellowTAB are very passionate and creative, they are in no way leechers like people like to say here.

The readers of OSNews suffer from the evil of "being fond of the good ol'days" anything modern sucks. Also suffer from the illness of beliving that anything that is commercial is evil. Don't anyone here thinks that if YellowTAB succeed, we'll have a company with money and willpower to sustain BeOS. Do people here thing that F/OSS developers don't need a full time job to maintain house and family? You can choose to support a company that ressurect BeOS out of nowhere (don't get me started about BeOS 5 PE and it's toy distros...), a company that pays good salaries to full time developers to create Zeta and Apps, the same company that pays two haiku developers.... but no, you lot choose to burn the witch! All dreaming of Haiku (that will not be able to go on if their developers run out of money). I too dream of Haiku, and talking with Bernd he too wanted it to succeed, Haiku is not competition to yT, never was, people here liked to put them as fighters but in reality that is not true, do a poll with Haiku developers, ask them if they fell they are fighting YellowTAB, and then get back to me when someone answers: "heck, they are paying me to do it."

I really hate when arguments go religious like this one. Instead of hoping for talkings and agreements, instead of trying to understand what is happening, people go shouting and showing their teeths... People here look like nothing but geek-bullies that like to band togheter and scream their heart about something and then enjoy the burning...

I use Zeta and love it. I'll use Haiku too. Everytime I get a chance to meet Bernd or any of the YellowTAB staff, I thank them for their efforts.

Reply Score: 3

RE: I hate religious zealots...
by axeld on Sat 20th Aug 2005 15:51 UTC in reply to "I hate religious zealots... "
axeld Member since:
2005-07-07

> Without YellowTAB there would be no BeOS and Haiku
> would be in a very early stage. One thing that no
> one seem to remember here is that YellowTAB is
> paying sallary to two of the Haiku developers and
> allowing them to keep working on Haiku.

I don't know where you got this from, but it's not true.
yellowTab had no influence whatsoever on Haiku this far. I am not aware of a single patch sent to us on behalf of yellowTab (even though they promised to do so, so this might change in the future).

Reply Score: 2

soapdog Member since:
2005-07-25

Axel,

I am not saying about patches... I am saying about paying two developers. I never said about influence. All I said is that by paying developers and allowing them to keep working on haiku, the haiku project gets more developer time, for the developers don't need to keep looking for jobs.

Please don't get me wrong. I never talked about influence or guidance... all I said is that yT supports Haiku by also hiring some of it's developers.

and that I know is correct... right?

Reply Score: 1

axeld Member since:
2005-07-07

I am only aware of one active Haiku contributor that is working for yT, but I don't understand how that can be translated into "yT supports Haiku", at least not beyond allowing this developer to work on Haiku in his spare time.
We (as Haiku) are not competing with yellowTab, nor are we fighting each other. They can benefit from our code, and we're allowing them to do so. I think they donated some copies of Zeta to Haiku developers, though, but that's as far as "supporting" goes currently.
I also wondered about this "without yT Haiku wouldn't be where it is today" - AFAICT we would be at the exact same stage without them as we are today. The time they actively participate in Haiku development has yet to come, if ever.

Reply Score: 2

RE: I hate religious zealots...
by JLF65 on Mon 22nd Aug 2005 00:07 UTC in reply to "I hate religious zealots... "
JLF65 Member since:
2005-07-06

He explodes easily when he is angry,

This is the worst thing you can have in a top executive of a company. No successful company will have "explosive" personalities in top positions, or in PR or marketting either. Any position that brings an employee in contact with other people, whether they be from other companies or the public, MUST be filled by someone who keeps their head under trying situations.

Bill Gates got hit in the face with a pie, for crying out loud. How would Bernd have responded to that given the tiff we see here? Look at how much Balmer gets teased about a couple passionate speeches he gave. How would Bernd react if a "Monkey Boy" video came out about him? And that answer will determine the future of yT as long as Bernd is there.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
---

>>He explodes easily when he is angry,

>>This is the worst thing you can have in a top executive of a company. No successful company will have "explosive" personalities in top positions, or in PR or marketting either. Any position that brings an employee in contact with other people, whether they be from other companies or the public, MUST be filled by someone who keeps their head under trying situations.

Hehe, You mean like the calm headed Steve Jobs? I bet you wouldn't have to look very hard to find some very rich, very powerful hot heads.

I'm planning on buying Zeta because there isn't a better BeOS distro out there. I love BeOS and while I don't use it as much as I used to I still use it and Zeta adds a lot of things I need that BeOS 5 just doesn't have, Haiku doesn't have, and PhOS will probably never have (heh).

Reply Score: 0

Did Bernd...
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 15:33 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Did he threaten to replace you with Indians?

I've heard YT is hiring Indians...

hmmm ...

Reply Score: 0

two?
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 16:10 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

yT are to the best of my knowledge paying none of the Haiku developers. Not two, none. Not that they have to, its not their project, obviously.

Reply Score: 0

RE: two?
by soapdog on Sat 20th Aug 2005 16:22 UTC in reply to "two?"
soapdog Member since:
2005-07-25

two Haiku developers are working for YellowTAB... They are not paying them to work on haiku, theu are paying them to work with Zeta and are paying good. They are however allowed and encouraged to keep working in Haiku and both do. I don't know about your knoweledge since you did not signed your email. But indeed, two Haiku developers are working for yT.

and for the last time, Haiku is not a project influenced or guided or owned by yT. I never said that. But hiring two Haiku developers and not tying them to non compete agreements and yet encouraging them is a very good practice in my opnion.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous
Member since:
---

I can't wait for the score of Be aficionados to find yet another excuse for this behavior.

Remember, YellowTab has never explained whether they have source code for the Be OS and if so under what legal arrangement they gained access to such source code.

My advise: Stay the hell away from proprietary operating systems. They are a legal and ethical minefield. SkyOS is in the same league as these guys.

Just a bunch of next-Microsoft wannabes who do not seem to have noticed that the industry has moved on from proprietary operating systems. The hypocrisy is that they use open source software when it suits them to make their proprietary platform more applealing without giving anything in return.

Ask yourself: Do you really want the platform of the future to be proprietary and closed?

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous Member since:
---

Amen, I agree 100%.

Reply Score: 0

Re: I hate religious zealots...
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 17:03 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

> He explodes easily when he is angry, but I seen worse things in the world.

IOW he has personal issues which influence the corporation, the community and also the freedom of a developer. I would not want to be dependant on such an asshole and that is my personal choice.

Reply Score: 1

RE:
by screwjack on Sat 20th Aug 2005 19:24 UTC
screwjack
Member since:
2005-08-20

amazing...

every time I start to think maybe it's time to forgive past transgressions and give Zeta a go, Bernd does something to remind me of why I haven't done so already.

to quoteth the Monkeyboy, "Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers!"

Thanks, but no thanks yT. I'll give the $100 to someone else instead.

Reply Score: 1

Bad P.R.
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 20:24 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Especially when you consider not everyone in the BeOS community likes yellowTab in the first place.

Eugenia Loli-Queru: The BeDoper Interview
http://www.bedoper.com/bedoper

Reply Score: 0

Hasty
by Anonymous on Sat 20th Aug 2005 21:31 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

This is quite odd and quite hasty of Bernd to jump to legal steps without even discussing the conflict, since it seems personal.

Bernd seems to be confused and maybe a bit intimidated by his position at yt. The company is still quite young and small and to experience growth, you can not drive away the small community of contributers to the overall project.

Proprietary OS or not, this guy is doing good things and at for NO PRICE!

Drop the legal mumbo jumbo and smoke some weed. You'll feel better Bernd.

JEFF G

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
---

Of course there is. Mac OS X.

Reply Score: 0

I also support Marcus 100%!
by Anonymous on Sun 21st Aug 2005 01:25 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

In my experience Marcus has made many very valuable contributions and has been a complete professional in my dealings with him.

Currently I have BeOS Pro 5.0.3 running and will no doubt eventually move to Haiku.

As for that other company . . . usually when you see irrational bullying tactics like this . . . you can safely assume their situation has become desperate. I will NEVER buy anything from them . . . darauf konnen Sie sich verlassen!!!

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
---

>MacOSX is another good-looking proprietary OS that ripped BSD code.

actualy, the fact that BSD license *allows* this kind of use is a feature. the developers rather have companies use their code and earn millions with it whithout giving even a thank you back because that way their code gets a bigger user base in the long run.

Reply Score: 2

How sad.
by aGNUstic on Sun 21st Aug 2005 03:36 UTC
aGNUstic
Member since:
2005-07-28

I interpret this as, "I plan to proceed legally. This will be us against you since you broke the NDA. YT will pursue the possibility and SHOULD sue you. I assure you that I will do EVERYTHING to see this happens."

Sounds like a legal threat to me. How sad. But in a way this is an opportunity for the Haiku project which I support.

Reply Score: 1

RE: How sad.
by Chreo on Tue 23rd Aug 2005 09:38 UTC in reply to "How sad."
Chreo Member since:
2005-07-06

Actually that's not a threat, that's a promise.

A threat is more like "if you don't keep your mouth shut, I'll hire my legal goons to bust a cap in your head"

I've always had a bad gut feeling about yT (don't have anything substantial to explain why tho), and this raised the my stomachs acid level beyond safe limits for yT. Just sad...

What Haiku should _NOT_ do is change their license (as suggested by some) to not allowing yT to use Haiku code. yT have done enough foot-shooting with this that most likely they'll bleed to death so the issue of Haiku code is pointless and would be a petty move. The BSD license is altruistic for a reason and as with freedom of speech you take the good with the bad.

Reply Score: 1

Take it from me...
by looncraz on Sun 21st Aug 2005 04:53 UTC
looncraz
Member since:
2005-07-24

As the originator of the Zeta idea, the creator of the original binary base (BeOS Dano R5.1d0-Exp), and an ex-yellowTAB slave, I think I have a fair understanding of Bernd.

To Bernd, yellowTAB is a business, nothing else. To best understand where he is going with yellowTAB, it is best to see what he has done in the past.

Bernd use to own/operate a construction company, he had some small contracts, then finally slimed his way into a few big contracts. I cannot be sure why, as he essentially refused to go into much detail, he either got screwed over, or ran it into the ground. Either way, he came out on top with the business liquidated.

I do not know the name of the company, but a little sleuthing should be able to find out why the company he had in Germany before failed. And can pretty much bet that yellowTAB will go the same route. I would guess that trying to play in the bigs, and trying to pull off the image of a full-on army, without the guns to back it up, had much to do with it.

Okay, and now for what I know yellowTAB *HAS* permission to do:

When Be, INC switched focus, yellowTAB obtained a 'BeOS Personal Edition Distrobution License.'

They are not the only ones, either. The license does not permit access to the source code. In fact, it didn't seem to me that even allowed for modifications of binaries (my main work at yT).

While I was at yT, talks were in fact going on with someone at PalmSource in relations to BeOS.

Except that it was not sanctioned talks with PalmSource, just someone who worked there who said that PalmSource did not give a rats arse about BeOS, just thought the ownership of the rights and talent might help drive value up in their company more than the investment. Business, pure business.

What I am not sure about, but believe:

Bernd is planning on running yellowTAB into the ground for his personal profit.

It is my feeling that yellowTAB is hacking away at sections of the Haiku code, replacing such things as the kernel with that code in Zeta. In order to do this, they only need access to the leaked BeOS sources, which may or may not still be available (though I know they have code, I only saw tiny peices of it when at yT, some was corrupted(!)).

Well, I guess that will be all for now.

--The loon

Reply Score: 3

Forged mail?
by Buck on Sun 21st Aug 2005 08:12 UTC
Buck
Member since:
2005-06-29

Could the mail from Bernd have been forged? It's so easy to do, also including IP addresses. Anyone can do that. Given that Marcus receives some lousy anonymous comment and then that 'mail'... That could well be the possibility.

Reply Score: 1

Richie Rich
by Anonymous on Sun 21st Aug 2005 08:14 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

All that I have seen from this Richie Rich guy is that he profits whole day long from other people. When yellowcrap sells bundled software from other developers, be sure that yC tries to cheat them (and the already did in the past).
Keep this in mind when you get your CrapOS. You only help Richie Rich. Becaus of your support other peole have to suffer.
Many more knwon (community) people know all this and still support Richie Rich. They sit in Usergroups, Opensource software projects, IRC Channels and user meetings. All that they're trying to do is to draw a very different picture of yellowcrap and to betray the truth. As always everyone will say "Hey yc is a company and this is just a personal conflict between Mr Media and Richie Rich" - but don't be fooled. Wake up, you have been fooled for so many times - stop supporting yellowcrab immediatly. Every new day in business they harm people like you and me.

Reply Score: 0

Richie Rich
by Anonymous on Sun 21st Aug 2005 09:54 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

>Many more know (community) people know all this and still support Richie Rich.
...All that they're trying to do is to draw a very different picture of yellowcrap and to betray the truth.

I could name one husband and wife BeOS news site that describes that well ;)

Reply Score: 0

Simple solution
by aliquis on Sun 21st Aug 2005 10:40 UTC
aliquis
Member since:
2005-07-23

Ok, everyone, don't buy any YellowTab products and tell everyone else to do the same.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous
Member since:
---

Yellow Tab may have a dubious history but the facts remain that Zeta is the only distribution of BEOS with

a) Decent Fonts
b) Reasonable USB device support.
c) Support for modern processors, memory etc.

R5PRO fanatics should take a hard look at the screen in front of them and admit that the font rendition sucks.

I believe that some of these features have been hacked and patched into the operating system but at least it is a decent user experience at last and reasonably stable on the still limited hardware that supports it.
If HW OpenGL worked as well and they fixed the PIII dual CPU problem I think it would be the best OS I could run on my computer. The BEOS user interface is such a great combination of simplicity and power that you cant get anywhere else. Also BEOS is a joy to program.
So it is worth $100.
Also if Yt does fold it will be a classical collectable OS. One concern though. If Yt folds who will be around to 'activate' the Zeta licenses....
I think the activation feature is a little short sited from a company in such a risky venture

Reply Score: 0

Ronald Vos Member since:
2005-07-06

I agree: YellowTAB, for all the name-calling going on, HAVE managed to generate extra interest for BeOS, and make several very useful additions.

Support for multiple processors btw, is in the other distro's as well AFAIK (including working SMP code), just no optimisations.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous
Member since:
---

First off,yt does have the rights to use the source.

Also the "activation feature" can be deleted.

So looncraz how much are you going to promise without delevering?

*cough* new flash player

Reply Score: 0

Financial support for Haiku
by Anonymous on Sun 21st Aug 2005 12:39 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

All people that have expressed their plan to financially support Haiku (instead of yellowtab or besides) will be happy to learn that you can do that now by buying a Haiku Walter COn 2005 T-Shirt, see http://haiku-os.org/learn.php?mode=news_view&id=393 .

Perfect!
Note, you are welcome paypal more than the $20 for a t-shirt as a donation. Or skip the whole t-shirt thing plus p&p and make your contribution much more efficient. ;)

Your pal, Blibbering Humdinger

Reply Score: 0

Waiting for Haiku
by Anonymous on Mon 22nd Aug 2005 03:37 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Problem is this,
Haiku will not be for general release for probably a year, maybe beta by 6months.
Haiku will not feature a Video Editor, DVD Ripping software, Itunes Clone (although I'd stick with SoundPlay) and other software that is bundled with Zeta.

An OS without apps is pretty useless. Zeta is in its current form a plug until Haiku gets off the ground. Then everything will be migrated over to its code base. Until then we have Zeta or BeOS 5. Given that not everyone keeps an antiquated PC around to run BeOS 5 on I would say that Zeta is a reasonable way to go.

Bernd does seem to need to learn how to chill but for all the cheapskates and nay sayers out there, YellowTab can serve a usefull function for the former BeOS community. Lets all try to get our focus on supporting each other and getting a kickass media desktop OS out into the wider world instead of tearing each other apart.

Loon, your efforts with BeOS are greatly appreciated but get off your high horse over YellowTab and stick to what you know, coding.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Waiting for Haiku
by Anonymous on Mon 22nd Aug 2005 07:37 UTC in reply to "Waiting for Haiku"
Anonymous Member since:
---

An OS without apps is pretty useless.

Btw, yT just exaggerated with the huge pile of 3rd party apps, some of them are of poor quality and showcase the OS and its particular features very poorly or even draw attention away from them. And it is completely unneccessary too. yT has a downlads section, there is BeBits etc.
It is very unprofessional considering money they charge.

Reply Score: 0

v RE[2]: Sad
by Anonymous on Mon 22nd Aug 2005 09:12 UTC
RE[3]: Sad
by Anonymous on Mon 22nd Aug 2005 17:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Sad"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Apparently you are ignoring the portion where it was stated that yT was claiming NDA coverage for things he didn't sign an NDA for: in other words, Bernd was throwing in things that are irrelevant and not his legal right, in order to try to coerce the developer to do things he has no right to do.

Maybe if you read enough details, you won't look as much like a dumbass. Yes, if someone breaks an NDA, there should be repurcussions, but also, if someone lies and tries to cover something else that wasn't tied into the coverage of the NDA agreed to, that, too, should also have repurcussions. Guess what: this is the sort of thing that can happen.

Reply Score: 0

catch a clue
by Anonymous on Mon 22nd Aug 2005 09:26 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

If you would all take a minute and get off the "the world is against me" bandwagon, you might catch on that people who post information that they have *voluntarily* signed an NDA not to post/share, really are not trustworthy. Think about it, no one made him sign it, no one forced him to work with YT in the first place and certainly, no one should be employing him in any capacity if he cannot be bothered to honor his commitments. A commitment *he made* by signing an NDA in the first place. They are vague for a reason...so they can be interpreted in a way that is beneficial to the company who wrote it. Not really a shocking bit of info there. And it really shouldn't be a surprise to you developers who apparently want to live off the air, that a company who makes software that they *sell* (paying developers like you a living wage that enables you to eat) would expect people they trust to work with them not to post private information on the web. Um, duh! You don't get to decide what information is covered, the person who asked you to sign the NDA does. If you don't like it, don't sign it. Not a hard concept, eh? Sigh....why don't you just go back to working on your *open source* OS and stop bothering people who are legitimate? You know the OS I mean, the one made a by a company that is now bankrupt and paid for by VC's and other individuals who invested money that was paid to engineers who wrote the code. Sound familiar? Don't kid yourself, you are taking things that someone paid for in the first place...and maybe you should consider the fact that most of you have a *full time* job at a company (your know the term company? yellowtab is one) that isn't giving it's products away. Put that money in the bank don't you? Use it to buy internet access and a spot to post your sad little rantings about a company that cannot be bothered to work with people like you who are too untrustworthy to make it worth their time. Catch on to the point......he signed an NDA, he broke the NDA, he is open to and liable for the damages. Doesn't matter if you like it, it's a fact. And any of you who throw your money (you know, that stuff you need to hire a lawyer) away to defend a man who is a liar and disregards his own and other people's professional respect, deserves the fees they will have to pay. You do it to yourselves people. No wonder “Haiku” is such a huge, smashing success....well done!!

Reply Score: 1

RE: catch a clue
by Anonymous on Mon 22nd Aug 2005 10:04 UTC in reply to "catch a clue"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Dear haikuisnotbeos,

maybe you should have invested less time in posting than in reading - in that case you would have noticed, that the threatening mail was NOT caused by a possible NDA-breach, but by the completely legal blog-entry that was posted here.

Bernd Korz is just using a way earlier incident that was already setteled as a weapon to fight a public correction to a public slander against on of his past business contacts.

So, the first to be unprofessional in doing his business was Bernd Korz by publicly slandering a business partner. The first in breaking a commitment was Bernd Korz by reopening a conflict that was already setteled by using it as a weapon of revenge.

If you still want to claim Marcus is in this because he broke an NDA, you should name that breach so we know what you're talking about.

Reply Score: 0

Good and Bad like Black and White
by Anonymous on Mon 22nd Aug 2005 11:04 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

@ all who *now* don't want to buy Zeta or are deleting it or who are advising not to buy it

What's your win? I mean Zeta is the only useable BeOS version now.

+ I believe YT put a whole bunch of stuff in Zeta and fixed things which BeOS lacked. Like adding CUPS, NDIS, improved USB, improved internals etc. Video editor and more. OK making a new mediaplayer when you have soundplay and VLC seems a bit dumb but YT needs their own SW to sell and VLC is GPL and Soundplay ownes Marco Nelissen (I'm his fan btw ; ) )

@ rest

Interesting stuff here! Thanks for the info. But in the end I hope everything will turn out well.

I see here that information wants to be free indeed! : )) That's good.

@ loon Yeah man what's up with you? You make Phos you make a whole bunch of stuff... but I need flash!!! : )
Do you want money for it? I know you had time constraints and you need to make a living as well.

@ OSnews A bit 'BIG headline' for something personal don't you think? But it did make things clear, maybe make a summarizing facts + history of it? So we can leave all the 'YT has/has not got the source etc. behind. Will clear our minds to focus on productive things ; )

(Hey I'm reading this comment crap for far too long now ; ))

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
---

Yeah, you're right. I don't give a damn wether they have to sue that guy or beat him up to death or whatever, as long as the next Zeta-version is even better than the current one.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
---

Lot of YT advocates mentioned improved USB support in Zeta. Most of them meant USB Mass Storage Support.
But no one of those advocates mentioned sad fact that YT violated most free BSD license of USB mass storage driver, written by S.Zharsky and used by YT as bease for their new driver.
Namely, they omitted credits for S.Zharski in Zeta R1.

You see, if they cannot fullfil even those minimal reuirements for legality and respect, what you have to expect im more serious things?

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
---

KEEP DIGGING. THIS IS THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG.


... but you're starting to catch on now...

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
---

I went to WalterCon and determined from the discussions there that yellowTab the company and Zeta it's product are BAD for people who want to see an OS as interesting as BeOS return to computerdom.

This is going to sound like shameless self-promotion but I donated $100 dollars to Haiku and feel that I did something positive for the computing world. I wish the slot machines had been kinder that weekend and I could have done more. If I had put that same money into the hands of yellowTab I would have a general feeling of unease at supporting the unsavory behavior of yet another closed source OS vendor.

Please buy a Waltercon shirt or donate directly to Haiku. http://haiku-os.org/learn.php?mode=news_view&id=393

Joe "Tapeworm" Bushong
joe*dot*bushong*at*gmail*dot*com

Reply Score: 0

don't support YT
by Anonymous on Tue 23rd Aug 2005 12:54 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

we should dry that rotten swamp at YT, their R1 was another Beta version without SMP and SCSI Support. Why should anyone buy the next fantastic named version of that company.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
---

I'm with Joe: I've donated a few hundred dollars to the Haiku project over the past couple years and feel wonderful, honestly, about promoting a free and open platform for the BeOS community -- and the computing public at large -- that can never "focus-shift" or disappear into a black hole of proprietary oblivion.

Please consider directing your financial support to the Haiku project as an alternative to supporting that seemingly parasitic and ever-shadier yellowTAB outfit ("makers" of Zeta). Visit the Haiku donations page here:
<http://haiku-os.org/contribute.php?mode=donate>

Czeslaw Czapla
czapla*at*teleport*com

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
---

the blogs. The insulting statement under "ISDN drivers for AVM B1 and Fritz cards" - the blog of Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - is written by Bernd (or a person extremely close to him). It's sooooooooooooooo obvious.

Let Zeta die... and let Haiku go on (as it does quite well).

dylansmrjones
kristian AT herkild DOT dk

Reply Score: 0

re:Take it from me...
by Anonymous on Fri 26th Aug 2005 21:45 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

People, get off Loon's case. You want flash, either help out or shut up and wait.

Reply Score: 0

Zeta is "zilch"
by cypress on Mon 29th Aug 2005 13:14 UTC
cypress
Member since:
2005-07-11

I say let Zeta die. YT is only in it for profit. Support Haiku as it is open-source and you can make a contribution in code to it. Zeta is only hacking BeOS R5. F**K ZETA! F**K YT! AND F**K YOU KORZ!

Reply Score: 1