Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 14th Oct 2005 22:01 UTC
Gnome Here is a list of usability issues concerning GNOME. "Some time ago I decided to note everything that didn't make sense to me while using Hoary/Breezy with GNOME, or what I thought could be implemented better. I found the time to go through the list again, clarifying somt things and writing some use cases where each problem applies. Some of these might seem very nitpicky, but details are important too."
Order by: Score:
Kinda Agree
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 22:14 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I kinda agree with that stuff... But some of it is REALLY off the wall stuff... And some of it has nothing to do with Gnome, like, Unix/Linux file structure is complex... I THINK he is suggesting having Nautilus hide the structure much like Finder does in OS X... But I am not sure...

Some of it is right on, but I think a lot of it almost all Window environments have a lot of these issues.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Kinda Agree
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:23 UTC in reply to "Kinda Agree"
Anonymous Member since:
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>>...some of it has nothing to do with Gnome, like, Unix/Linux file structure is complex...

This isn't about assigning responsibility for decisions made long ago.It is about accepting responsibllity for te product released to customers. If customers don't like something, they aren't going to be assuaged by being told "We didn't do it". If a Gnome user can't do something, how is being told the filesystem isn't a Gnome invention going to help him?

If the Unix filesystem stands in the way of Gnome being what should be, then the Gnome developers should change it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Kinda Agree
by Wrawrat on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:48 UTC in reply to "RE: Kinda Agree"
Wrawrat Member since:
2005-06-30

If the Unix filesystem stands in the way of Gnome being what should be, then the Gnome developers should change it.

Isn't going to happen. Abstractions to the fs layer could be created, but that's about it. Changing the traditional file structure involves a LOT of things and distro developers are NOT going to change their layouts for accomodating a specific DE. That's without mentioning that GNOME doesn't run only on Linux.

Reply Score: 2

v Huge usability issues
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 22:16 UTC
RE: Huge usability issues
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 22:34 UTC in reply to "Huge usability issues"
Anonymous Member since:
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Ali, you must be fscking kidding.

Not only you link to a WHOLE -1 modded thread (mostly your messages) where you insult, rant, FUD and overall troll yet another news probably related to gnome. But then you say people "diffamate your comments". Whoa, that is like saying rain "wets the sea".

You were basically banned from this site like a year ago, and now you're back asking for more.

How long have you been trolling about gnome now? 4, 5 years? I'm not kidding when I say you have a serious problem.

Greets from your old, but still sane friend.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Huge usability issues
by morgoth on Sun 16th Oct 2005 00:39 UTC in reply to "RE: Huge usability issues"
morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

I read the post in question that you're referring to, and firstly, it's modded at a 0. So it wasn't modded down like you've indicated, tsk tsk. I'd check that tongue for pimples m'lad.

Secondly, most of what he has said is true (at least from my experience).

Quote: "You were basically banned from this site like a year ago, and now you're back asking for more."

Oh, and I can see that you're so happy with that result, aren't you? Whatever happened to freedom of speech? If you don't like what someone says, just lock them up (like the US government does), or just "ban" them from your site/forums/mailing lists. That's a really good way to promote true democracy and freedom of speech. Not. As to this particular person trolling Gnome, he has a right to voice his opinion. If you do not like it, don't read his posts. I see the same shit coming from Gnome users constantly bashing KDE - "oh it's too cluttered", "oh, it's too complicated", "oh, the icons are too gimmicky", "oh, the license isn't free" and so on and so on. Whilst I disagree with these sorts of comments, and reply to them as I feel, I don't see osnews.com banning those users for "trolling" as you so succinctly put it. So, you're being rather hypocritical my friend.

Oh, and again, get a user account. Might I make a suggestion to the osnews.com staff - do not allow anonymous comments to be modded up - only those with accounts can mod comments up/down as needed, and only those with accounts can receive moderation points (or lose them).

Dave

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Huge usability issues
by dylansmrjones on Sun 16th Oct 2005 10:00 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Huge usability issues"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

I'm sick and tired of people in here running around downmodding comments they disagree with, or modding down persons they just don't like.

The modding up/down is for comments which are special in the sense, that it's a really good comment, cutting through all the bullshit and getting to facts.

Modding down is for racist remarks, and personal insulting.

Morgoth's post didn't deserve to be modded as -2, so I gave et a + point, to compensate for the abuse of the modding system.

Now, grow up. And have a nice discussion instead of insulting each other in the way 6 year olds behave.

We can do better!

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Huge usability issues
by morgoth on Sun 16th Oct 2005 21:28 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Huge usability issues"
morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

Thank you. There is some manners around here after all :-)

Blessed Be,

Dave

Reply Score: 1

Hidden folders and drag-n-drop saving
by jaygade on Fri 14th Oct 2005 22:21 UTC
jaygade
Member since:
2005-06-29

Refer the developers to Gobolinux for hiding folders (directories) and to Rox for the drag-n-drop saving.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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Refer the developers to Gobolinux for hiding folders (directories) and to Rox for the drag-n-drop saving.

Komodo (http://www.komodoware.com), is doing the same thing. Gobo has packaging issues - as in no dependency management which it needs even though everything goes into their own little /usr/locals/.

Reply Score: 0

jaygade Member since:
2005-06-29

Gobo has packaging issues - as in no dependency management which it needs even though everything goes into their own little /usr/locals/.

I wasn't necessarily saying to use Gobolinux, but from reading their docs they have a patch that hides the standard directories while still making them available to programs that expect the standard directory structure. Since stuff is GPL, developers should be able to use it in other projects.

Reply Score: 1

Some good suggestions
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 22:33 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Some of these are good suggestions, but the forum is the wrong place for them - hope the author posts to Gnome's usability-list and files usability bugs where appropriate.

As for hidden folders and Gobolinux... Gobolinux uses a completely non-FHS simplified file hierarchy, which is a neat experiment but is probably not going to catch on among most of Gnome's target platforms such as Ubuntu, at least not anytime soon. Something closer to the Mac OS X system is probably more likely, where the standard (BSD in that case) hierarchy is maintained, but doesn't show up by default in most applications, and (except for the "Applications" folder) most of the default folders a user deals with are in their home directory ("Pictures" "Music" etc.). Even as Nautilus is designed right now, though, getting yourself down to / is not something likely done by accident - but maybe an inline dialog (ala Firefox) explaining what the heck you're looking at would be useful for transitioning users.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Some good suggestions
by Sphinx on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:28 UTC in reply to "Some good suggestions"
Sphinx Member since:
2005-07-09

But it should catch on and so should zero-install. Wonder why, just too different? Hiding the file system is definitely not the answer.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Some good suggestions
by jaygade on Sat 15th Oct 2005 14:13 UTC in reply to "Some good suggestions"
jaygade Member since:
2005-06-29

As for hidden folders and Gobolinux... Gobolinux uses a completely non-FHS simplified file hierarchy, which is a neat experiment but is probably not going to catch on among most of Gnome's target platforms such as Ubuntu, at least not anytime soon. Something closer to the Mac OS X system is probably more likely, where the standard (BSD in that case) hierarchy is maintained, but doesn't show up by default in most applications, and (except for the "Applications" folder) most of the default folders a user deals with are in their home directory ("Pictures" "Music" etc.).

I wasn't saying to use the Gobolinux hierarchy. Gobolinux uses a patch that hides the underlying hierarchy. See http://www.gobolinux.org/index.php?lang=en_US&page=doc/articles/gob...

I'm just suggesting looking into using this patch to resolve the issue.

Reply Score: 1

Looks like an excellent list.
by Best on Fri 14th Oct 2005 22:39 UTC
Best
Member since:
2005-07-09

I agree that some of it is off the wall, but other things are just good practice. I'd really like having drag and drop to save.

Reply Score: 1

Somewhat flawed but some good points
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 22:50 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Open location is easy and the auto complete is nice, heres why.

1. Having the location panel with nothing in it is logical because what makes you think I want the directory i'm in there?, no blank is good.

2. If I want to goto /home/john then all I do it type /h auto completes /home , /j auto completes john, i'm there.

Having a Window covering another while drag&drop is simple.

1. Drag the file and then Alt, Tab to rase the Window, then drop the file, how simple it that?, I use that method all the time.

As far as I know Alt, Tab is universal and since some of these usability issue are not gnome but all UI window managers and OS's.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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>>...what makes you think I want the directory i'm in there?

What makes you think a Gnome user is going to know what a directory is? The design and implementation of a GUI like Gnome should ensure that a user can execute any needed filesystem action without needing to even be aware of the existence of the underlying file structure.

>>... If I want to goto /home/john then all I do it type /h auto completes /home..

See above. You are also assuming the user knows how, and wants to, use a terminal.

>>...Alt, Tab is universal...

No, it isn't. But, that's beside the point. Opening a second window that perfectly overlays the first window, giving the appearance that nothing has happened, is incredibly bad design. I first noticed this a couple of releases ago. I've never seen another OS that does this; its continuing presence in Gnome means Gnome developers aren't clever enough to fix it or they don't care.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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I'm not on about the terminal, in gnome 2.12 open non-browser mode and you can browse a location by Shift, L, thats what I was talking about. Also the new browser mode tells you where the user and he/she can move to within one click, rather then hitting back all the time.

I've never seen a Window "perfectly" overlay another window, since gnome keeps the window sizes you last left them in. Open a window and it auto rases above, whats to hard about not using the "on top", on the top left window?

Reply Score: 0

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Go check up on your Windows knowledge.

All these usability issues found in Gnome can be found in Windows too, and most of them in Mac as well.

No GUI at the moment handles printing well. I'm looking at a couple of models, which would fix the printing issue.

Unfortunately they require most software to be rewritten quite a bit.

Perhaps I should write a blog about usability issues found in most desktop environments.

It's like most developers don't grok the desktop metaphor. Could that be the reason?

Reply Score: 1

Wrawrat Member since:
2005-06-30

No GUI at the moment handles printing well. I'm looking at a couple of models, which would fix the printing issue.

I don't know. To me, MS Windows handles printing quite well. I have a CUPS printer on my network and I can print on it with any version of Windows supporting IPP by using the Windows PCL driver for my printer. Sure, there are room for improvement. Ffor instance, the printing dialog is freaking when it cannot access my printer while I'm on the road. Furthermore, there are many applications that are using their own GUI for printing instead of the generic one. Nevertheless, it works, something I cannot say for gnome-print. Of course, that's from my own experience.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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1. Drag the file and then Alt, Tab to rase the Window, then drop the file, how simple it that?, I use that method all the time.

I disagree, for a couple of reasons:

1. It complicates because you have to know the hotkeys in advance. I'm sure most people know alt+tab, but still.

2. You find yourself reaching for the keyboard when you're doing mouse operations, IMO this should be avoided (for the most part) and in this case it would be easy to design it that way.

3. It's a three step process that could be reduced to only two, the current behaviour is:

drag => alt+tab => drop (as you suggest)

when it could be

drag => drop

See my point? The less you have to do the quicker you'll learn. I use KDE but it suffers from this very same problem (maybe it's configurable somewhere, I don't know). To be honest I don't care very much because I manage just fine with the current behaviour but those concerned about usability should pay attention because tiny details like these makes working in the DE much faster and convenient (and no, "simplicity" is not the only graal out there).

Reply Score: 0

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

It's a problem in pretty much all desktop environments. I think Mac OS X has some sort of solution to this one (but has other drawbacks).

In windows you can also have drag it to the taskbar, and let the mouse hover over the taskbar-button the folder/application you want to dump the objects in. When the window opens (immediately or after 400 milliseconds or whatever settings you have) drop the object(s). I have to test this solution in Gnome and Equinox.

It's not all that logical, but quite efficient.

Reply Score: 1

I want this one
by ma_d on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:02 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

" Suggestion: Create an infrastructure separating data, configuration and temporary/cache files. This will also allow to delete the gnome configuration if it becomes corrupted without data loss."
I'd be on board for this one... A /conf/$USER would be AWESOME. However, implementing it would involve waiting for programs to move over to some new env variable... Which, I'd happily do the day someone started doing it, but old applications would still make dot directories until they get fixed or no longer used.
So, it'd be slow to start. I do wonder why no one has bothered to do it yet...

Reply Score: 1

RE: I want this one
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 01:11 UTC in reply to "I want this one"
Anonymous Member since:
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This area has already been covered by freedesktop.org

The proposed solution is to have a .config directory in each user's home where all of the other applications can store their settings

eg:

/home/jsixpack/.config/gnome2/

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: I want this one
by Best on Sat 15th Oct 2005 01:18 UTC in reply to "RE: I want this one"
Best Member since:
2005-07-09

Sounds like a good enough solution. You'd need either universal support for it, or a small piece of software to make applications see .config/directories as ~/.directories.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: I want this one
by ma_d on Sat 15th Oct 2005 02:32 UTC in reply to "RE: I want this one"
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

No, that's a bad idea. It doesn't allow seperation via partitioning. /conf would be highly preferable as it would allow you to seperate them out. You see, it's nice to put your data under /home and never backup when ya switch dists, but those dot directories are a pain in the arse every time!

Reply Score: 1

v Huge usability issues
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:05 UTC
v Huge usability issues
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:12 UTC
RE: Huge usability issues
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:20 UTC in reply to "Huge usability issues"
Anonymous Member since:
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Tango has got to be the simplest and clean iconset i've seen and i've seen very few people come up with icons that look great small. Gnome's icon set is good because they dont look like kindergarden icons i.e Crystal and XP, just look at the firefox icons which are rather like Tango and gnome. People act like it's a HUGE with problem with gnome, when really sometimes it's just common sence.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Huge usability issues
by ma_d on Sat 15th Oct 2005 03:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Huge usability issues"
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

I rather like both. Although, I think for professional look, the best has to be RedHats...

Reply Score: 1

v GNOME
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:14 UTC
RE: GNOME
by Manuma on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:17 UTC in reply to "GNOME"
Manuma Member since:
2005-07-28

I don't agree with you, to me the GNOME desktop is more solid and usable than any other Linux DE, I like it, about the developers, I won't ask, is their problem, as long as they give me a nice, usable and polished GNOME I won't complaine, My congratulations to the GNOME crew you guys are doing a great job.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: GNOME
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 19:20 UTC in reply to "RE: GNOME"
Anonymous Member since:
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You can't disagree without supporting your claim that the issues the author raises aren't important. There's no doubt that the GNOME developers are doing great work - but that's not to say that everything they're putting out is perfect, or without room for improvement.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: GNOME
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 19:35 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: GNOME"
Anonymous Member since:
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We can say the same of every other project on the planet including KDE.

Reply Score: 0

RE: GNOME
by Best on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:19 UTC in reply to "GNOME"
Best Member since:
2005-07-09

How are we supposed to take you seriously when you're copy and pasting the same messages we've seen before?

Reply Score: 5

v RE[2]: GNOME
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:22 UTC in reply to "RE: GNOME"
v Huge usability issues
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:15 UTC
v Huge usability issues
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:21 UTC
v GNOME
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:33 UTC
v Gnome is crappy
by Joe User on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:34 UTC
v RE[2]: GNOME
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:36 UTC
v Huge usability issues
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:37 UTC
v Huge usability issues
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:40 UTC
v RE[2]: GNOME
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:41 UTC
v Gnome usability I
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:49 UTC
...
by Manuma on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:50 UTC
Manuma
Member since:
2005-07-28

Some one really have to ban the IP of the guy who is repeating his trolling messages.

Reply Score: 3

RE: ...
by rhavyn on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:54 UTC in reply to "..."
rhavyn Member since:
2005-07-06

Seriously, as of right now he's got 14 comments moderated down.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[2]: ...
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:56 UTC in reply to "RE: ..."
RE[2]: ...
by Ramsees2 on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:58 UTC in reply to "RE: ..."
Ramsees2 Member since:
2005-09-27

please please please

Any admin ban this guy.

He is annoying

Thank you.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: ...
by Yuske on Sat 15th Oct 2005 00:00 UTC in reply to "RE: ..."
Yuske Member since:
2005-07-28

I vote for a permanent ban.

Get rid of that loser.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: ...
by kaiwai on Sat 15th Oct 2005 05:13 UTC in reply to "RE: ..."
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Just a side note, the one who keeps posting those comments, is he the same guy who whined consistantly about the fact that the ok/cancel button order was reversed, then turned around and declared that he was going to fork a version of GNOME that 'corrected' the 'terrible mistakes' as he put it?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: ...
by Best on Sat 15th Oct 2005 05:36 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
Best Member since:
2005-07-09

Yes he is.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: ...
by kaiwai on Sat 15th Oct 2005 09:13 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ..."
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Ah, thats it, "Galaxy" is what he used to call himself - damn memory seems to remember everything but the important things ;)

Hmm, someone pool some money together for the poor lad and get him laid; maybe then he'll realise that his holy war against the so-called 'establishment' is nothing more than a wasted effort by a lonely boy to take his mind off the fact that he is a complete loser.

Reply Score: 1

RE: ...
by Mitarai on Sat 15th Oct 2005 00:01 UTC in reply to "..."
Mitarai Member since:
2005-07-28

Somebody give valium to this guy or ban him.

Reply Score: 1

v Gnome usability II
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:50 UTC
RE: Gnome usability II
by morgoth on Sun 16th Oct 2005 00:57 UTC in reply to "Gnome usability II"
morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

Your post makes sense, and matches my experience with the Gnome desktop environment. Sadly, you're posting in a pro Gnome news article, on a pro Gnome website, with many pro Gnome users, who are viciously against anything that so much as dares to criticise the Gnome Desktop. Again, I'd ask the osnews.com staff to get off their asses and actually monitor who is repetitively modding down posts that criticise the Gnome desktop environment and maybe close their accounts as they are abusing the modding system? I fail to see anything wrong with your post, and it should never have been modded down, it has broken none of the osnews.com rules that I can see. The problem with a modding system like this, is that when you are a minority poster, posting on an article/thread filled with pro users, you might have absolutely valid points, but you will almost certainly get modded down in a unfair and hostile way.

You get a +1 from me for having the guts to state your views, and stand by them, and put up with some very poor losers that visit the osnews.com website and actively mod down posts that they disagree with. I'd suggest some of the pro Gnome users actually read the osnews.com guidelines for modding. And then learn to curb their trigger happy fingers and cease modding down posts inappropriately - merely disagree with a post is no means to mod it down.

Dave

Reply Score: 0

v GNOME
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:51 UTC
v Gnome usability II
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:52 UTC
v Gnome usability I
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:53 UTC
v GNOME
by Anonymous on Fri 14th Oct 2005 23:58 UTC
He's insane
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 00:00 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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This guy should be interned. Seriously, he's got some serious problems.

Reply Score: 2

RE: He's insane
by dylansmrjones on Sun 16th Oct 2005 10:50 UTC in reply to "He's insane"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

According to guidelines this post ought to modded down to -5 but it gets modded up to +3.

A clear proof of abuse of the modding points.

Reply Score: 1

Some comments
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 00:00 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Wow, I would've never thought this would make OSnews. It was intended mainly to get some discussion and other user's comments and refine my ideas, to prepare for sending them to the appropriate channels. This was never meant for circulation, or i would have spent some more time working on it. ;) It's not sorted by importance, some stuff is not really important; like I stated in the beginning of the post, I just took everything I noticed during a couple of weeks of intensive Gnome usage.

Yes, I have the idea of drag&drop saving from rox (my second favorite desktop environment). I think it would work really well with Nautilus' spatial mode.

Yes, I mean hiding the structure. No changes to anything, just a file that contains everything to be hidden, so users who want complete unix structure in nautilus can just delete that file and see everything. Part of this is just to remove the complaint from some people that "linux sucks, cause the file structure is so complicated". And some users like exploring, and then get confused.

Of course, autocomplete is nice, but a dialog shouldn't autocomplete to a file when that will only produce an error. Autocompleting and then opening the file would be even better ;)

There are workarounds or tricks for some of the problems, but that does not mean a problem doesn't exist. There are people - sometimes even experienced ones - who don't know every way to do things, and Gnome is for them too.

w.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Some comments
by ma_d on Sat 15th Oct 2005 15:30 UTC in reply to "Some comments"
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

A lot of your stuff is better stated simply as refinements rather than problems. I would never consider having to use a save dialog as a problem.. I'd be happier to see D&D work between KDE and GTK before I'd care about D&D saving!
But you made some really good suggestions, and people who will care to fix it will likely hear about them now. But you should probably file these with Gnome's system.

Reply Score: 1

One comment I forgot
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 00:01 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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One more thing I forgot to mention, I think Gnome should put minimize, maximize, close window to the left like OSX. I mean it just makes since like having the gnome menu bar at the top, the navigation bar it to the left so why should I move my mouse to the right in a bit of useless space of the window?

Talk about usability issues, KDE and Windows have bigger ones with having the menu on bottom left, thats just wrong and bad usability. Nobody reads bottom,top to right do they!

Reply Score: 0

RE: One comment I forgot
by Best on Sat 15th Oct 2005 00:21 UTC in reply to "One comment I forgot"
Best Member since:
2005-07-09

You can change button order with a number of third party tweaking tools. I believe that GNOME uses the windows style order out of pure familiarity concerns at this point.

I don't like the windows order or the os-x order very much. I personally use minimize,maximize:close which works rather well I think.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: One comment I forgot
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 01:18 UTC in reply to "RE: One comment I forgot"
Anonymous Member since:
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I don't even use a maximize anymore. With such a high resolution and lots of real estate, why bother? I use minimize:close, and it works great. An added bonus is to use sloppy focus, and it actually feels like you're working with "windows."

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: One comment I forgot
by Best on Sat 15th Oct 2005 01:28 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: One comment I forgot"
Best Member since:
2005-07-09

I added the maximize button a while back because there are times when I want a window as big as possible without being fullscreen. Kind of silly I suppose.

I use it rarely enough that I mostly ignore it, but often enough that it comes in handy.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: One comment I forgot
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 04:10 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: One comment I forgot"
Anonymous Member since:
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Hmmm, good point, although if I ever needed to maximize, I would set the title bar to maximize on double-click.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: One comment I forgot
by Best on Sat 15th Oct 2005 04:28 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: One comment I forgot"
Best Member since:
2005-07-09

I happen to actually shade things, and after years of using linux, if a window title bar does anything other than roll up when double clicked on I'm surprised.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: One comment I forgot
by jziegler on Sat 15th Oct 2005 15:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: One comment I forgot"
jziegler Member since:
2005-07-14

I'd prefer the "maximize" button from Mac OS X. Though I've never used it, from what I've heard, it resizes the window to a value recommended by the application.

I often use the maximize button as a lazy way to make the window bigger, to see more stuff (I happen to have notebooks with 1024x768 resolution only). However, maximizing often makes no sense for e.g. terminal windows (no need for more than 80 columns ; can be solved by doing maximize-vertical-only), picture /document viewers (no need for white/black bars at the side of the document) or remote connection apps such as VNC, Terminal Services - (no need for black bars around the remote desktop).

It would probably require co-operation from apps, therefore it probably won't appear soon in any window manager.

Reply Score: 1

RE: One comment I forgot
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 04:52 UTC in reply to "One comment I forgot"
Anonymous Member since:
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"One more thing I forgot to mention, I think Gnome should put minimize, maximize, close window to the left like OSX."

That is something you can do in KDE without third party tools. You can also easily move the Menu to the top left or wherever you want. It's that whole choice thing Gnome seems to dislike.

I can see why one would argue that the developers should make the right choice from the start instead of letting users do it later, but I really value the ability to make a different choice if I disagree with the devs. With KDE, windows converts can keep a bottom left start button and top right titlebar buttons, or someone like you could move the titlebar buttons to the left and put all or part of the kicker/taskbar on the top.

Or you could just stick with Gnome.. meh. So much choice hehe

Reply Score: 2

RE: One comment I forgot
by ma_d on Sat 15th Oct 2005 15:33 UTC in reply to "One comment I forgot"
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

Actually it's better for usability. It makes the start menu accessible from a corner while leaving one window control button accessible from the top right corner (which KDE fails to do often anyway). Now, I think having the close button on the corner is bad usability because I sincerely doubt it's the most common task (and if it is the whole paradigm is messed up).
Having a menu bar at the top makes the window control inaccessible from a corner.
Mac gets away with it because they have the menu bar at the top, and that's INCREDIBLY USEFUL.

Reply Score: 1

RE:...
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 00:07 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

This Anonymous has right
Osnews are trying to support Gnome as the standard desktop for linux.
Most of complaints made by Mr Anonymous are quite fair.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]:...
by Mitarai on Sat 15th Oct 2005 00:08 UTC in reply to "RE:..."
Mitarai Member since:
2005-07-28

Those are only opinions not the truth

Just ike mine is the GNOME is the best DE

what is not rigth is to keep repeating it.

He is annoying.

Ban him.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]:...
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 00:44 UTC in reply to "RE[2]:..."
Anonymous Member since:
---

I don't especially like GNOME. Whenever I try it it just feels "wrong"; I use a number of different WMs, KDE, Windows and sometimes OSX and I just can't get used to GNOME (although it's better than CDE when I have to use a SUN)

I also think that the GNOME project has a number of problems, their style of decision-making, the NIH syndrome etc.

I even think that troll's posts make some (emphasize on some) valid points.

But, geez, that guy is an annoying little troll so I hereby officially found "Gnome Haters for Banning Anonymous (IP: 84.129.228.---)"

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]:...
by Mediocre Sarcasm Man on Sat 15th Oct 2005 00:59 UTC in reply to "RE:..."
Mediocre Sarcasm Man Member since:
2005-07-06

Osnews are trying to support Gnome as the standard desktop for linux.

Yes, because what happens here has such a great effect on what DE/WM people will choose (no offense OSnews guys).

Most of complaints made by Mr Anonymous are quite fair.

I'm not sure if they're fair, they're definitely paranoid.

Reply Score: 1

Whatever happened to...
by Best on Sat 15th Oct 2005 00:32 UTC
Best
Member since:
2005-07-09

Does anyone know what has become of Galaxy watch?

If any of you don't know Ali Ackaagac (our friend who is currently regurgatating messages.) used to go by the handle oGALAXYo here. I seem to recall he was banned for this same sort of behavior.

He has a long history of this same sort of behavior on several message boards going back at least three years. A history which used to be archived, but the page seems to have gone away.

Reply Score: 1

v RE: Whatever happened to...
by oGALAXYo on Sat 15th Oct 2005 01:17 UTC in reply to "Whatever happened to..."
RE[2]: Whatever happened to...
by dylansmrjones on Sun 16th Oct 2005 10:31 UTC in reply to "RE: Whatever happened to..."
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Interesting posting.

But you ought to control your temper, even thoug I perfectly understand it can be difficult.

About the modding up/down.

This is something which unfortunately is being abused in here. Some of my posts get modded up, for no apparent reason and other posts get modded down, for no apparent reason. Looks to me that some people har modding down just because they don't like another persons opinion, no matter the amount of facts.

With that said, I have to disagree with you in many aspects, though I cannot say anything about your experiences in regard to contribution, since my time is spent on other projects (usually small enough for everyone to know eachother well).

Reply Score: 0

Fair enough but ...
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 00:34 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Respect to someone who's prepared to put a lot of careful thought into his ideas, whether you agree with them or not. Like him, I like and use Gnome as my main DE.

A more frustrating concern in the state of Gnome generally. It doesn't take much following of places like Planet Gnome or news of yet another Gnome "summit" to wonder whether anyone is in charge of the plot and prioritizing and organizing the work, or indeed even whether is is a plot at all.

As Linux moves more into the mainstream and the basic platform becomes more and more complicated, cocking around "hacking" and spraying around quick fixes and ideas just doesn't cut it any more. I'd swap a robust and fully working Evolution or Nautilus for some window adjustments and yet another dubious but new! cool! mono-based utility any day.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: One comment I forgot
by Morty on Sat 15th Oct 2005 00:59 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

I believe that GNOME uses the windows style order out of pure familiarity concerns at this point.

Probably right, strange they haven't change that:-) Personally I don't think the old windows order are the best usability vise. But people are used to it, and changing it will result in a rather heated argument.

I remember the heated discussion from when the KDE default changed, close on the left and help, sticky and min/max on the right(KDE2 beta 2 i think). The Laptop windows decoration with default button order, if you are curious. Besides don't vista copy that one now? close on the left and double width for the important buttons.

Reply Score: 1

Re: One comment I forgot
by smoke on Sat 15th Oct 2005 00:59 UTC
smoke
Member since:
2005-07-08

You can change it even without third party tweaking tools you can use a bundeled app (gconf? I don't remember exactly) to change the button orderposition. I personally like the OS X order myself but I'm primarily a OS X user.

Reply Score: 1

nautilus questions
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 01:30 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

I have Fedora 4 installed. I often times have Nautilus crash when Gnome starts it up from a saved session. I have tried to remove Nautilus using yum and reinstall it but it still crashes occasionally. This problem kind of reminds me of IE on Windows 95 the way it would collapse when the system was started. Why does only Nautilus have this problem? Is it just me or are there issues with this application?

Reply Score: 0

RE: nautilus questions
by Best on Sat 15th Oct 2005 01:36 UTC in reply to "nautilus questions"
Best Member since:
2005-07-09

It would likely be better to ask in the fedora forums, but it sounds like a stale configuration problem to me.

Reply Score: 1

v Gnome sucks
by Joe User on Sat 15th Oct 2005 01:40 UTC
RE: Gnome sucks
by Best on Sat 15th Oct 2005 01:50 UTC in reply to "Gnome sucks"
Best Member since:
2005-07-09

You might as well ask the same of the Enlightenment developers, or the developers of the various boxes, or any other environment people find useful. While the dream of one linux desktop might be a nice one, its about as likely as Microsoft giving up on Windows and working to better Mac OS.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Gnome sucks
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 03:02 UTC in reply to "Gnome sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
---

"They should discontinue the Gnome development and join forces to enhance KDE."
is that because its so desperately in need of enhancing?

Reply Score: 0

Drag & Drop attachment
by CrazyDude0 on Sat 15th Oct 2005 04:29 UTC
CrazyDude0
Member since:
2005-07-10

Problem: Inactive window is raised as soon as the mouse button is pressed.

Use case: Adam is writing an email with Evolution and wants to add an attachment. He has an open Nautilus window containing the file, which is larger than the Evolution window (e.g. taking the whole screen). Adam now tries to drag&drop the file there, but cannot do this as the Nautilus window covers the Evolution window completely as soon as he tries. He has to move both windows halfway off the screen to do this.

Suggestion: Raise windows on mouse button up, not down. Maybe with additional refinements depending on the object you click.


Whatttt...can't you do that in GNOME? I think you should be able to do it. In windows i can simply press alt-tab with other hand to bring the inactive window in front to drop the attachment or i can put the mouse window icon on taskbar (while holding the dragged item) and the window comes to front so that i can drop item on that.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Drag & Drop attachment
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 07:51 UTC in reply to "Drag & Drop attachment"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Or you simple drag whatever you want to the "taskbar" and hover over the evolution, wait a little, and voila it opens up and you can continue to drag. In fact, it works just like windows ;) I see no reason what so ever to screw with settings people don't want changed because they are very used to them and probably like them. It's like the spatial natilus. I never want that, I promise you. I was extatic to find that you could keep browsing in the same window when I got win95 after being an avid Amiga user for many years prior. Do why would I want the old behavior brought back when I hated it so?

Same here, I rather see user education. Why not a "I'm learning mode" which simply pops up stuff like "If you want to switch to another app, do this" when the user drags around aimlessly? Much better than screwing with peoples settings and ways to work.

Reply Score: 0

v Gnome
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 05:16 UTC
v Hmm.
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 05:32 UTC
Copy and Pasting Posts
by Best on Sat 15th Oct 2005 05:52 UTC
Best
Member since:
2005-07-09

Ali, my biggest problem with your posting is that you're repeatedly posting comments that have been cut and pasted either in whole or in part from other posts of yours that I've seen. This not only makes people weary from seeing the same thing repeatedly, it also bombards people with so much information that it becomes a pain to attempt to argue against you. So you simply get ignored.

I can understand you want your views heard and don't like to see your comments disappear into the realm of modded down comments. However this is the wrong way to do it.

Why don't you get a blog?

Reply Score: 2

Please invoke rule #13.
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 06:20 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

The person posting from 84.129.228.0/24 is flagrantly in violation of the rules of the forum. He is definitely in violation of rule #7 (keeping things on-topic) since his postings are basically just a rant related to Gnome/KDE and have nothing to do with the original author's specific list of issues. He is also obviously trying to revisit a flamewar that you guys already put to rest in accordance with rule #9. Additionally, even though you don't have it listed as a numbered rule, but I can't imagine that it's allowed to post the same thing over and over again just to try to bypass the moderation system.

Please ban the netblock 84.129.228.0/24 either from the forum entirely, or at least from posting. Should this continue, I'd suggest just turning off anonymous posting altogether.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Please invoke rule #13.
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 07:57 UTC in reply to "Please invoke rule #13."
Anonymous Member since:
---

Ah yes.. groupthink and modding down instead of replying to what looks like quite serious and valid comments is absolutely the right way. Wtf is this, the Holy Church of GNOME?

Reply Score: 0

RE: Please invoke rule #13.
by segedunum on Sat 15th Oct 2005 13:42 UTC in reply to "Please invoke rule #13."
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Expressing your opinions using exact events, and actually naming contributors, is not in violation of the rules as much as you might wish it would be.

We also seem to have a great deal of extremely sad people around here able to spend their time creating multiple accounts to mod down comments (and mod up meaningless ones) that make them squirm and flinch. Can you actually respond to some of the specifics (true or not), and keep your stuff on topic please without being less then juvenile?

A bunch of GNOME developers have scared away a lot of fine contributors to the GNOME architecture such as Star (long time artist for GNOME), Dr. Frickle (who initially maintained the old GNOME pages), Mr. Baulig (the guy who initially worked his ass off on libgnome/ui and other parts) and many others.

I am also a bit fedup about all the companies that have recently joined the GNOME foundation board. How comes that every company who shows interest in GNOME shows up as member of the GNOME foundation board ? Hell, every little small user who contributes to GNOME needs to pass the membership application, months passes, you get asked dozen of questions....But how comes all these new companies join in as if they were part of GNOME for the past 6 years or longer ?

If you can't it reflects badly on you, and on Gnome as well.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Please invoke rule #13.
by cm__ on Sat 15th Oct 2005 20:59 UTC in reply to "Please invoke rule #13."
cm__ Member since:
2005-07-07

> Please ban the netblock 84.129.228.0/24 either from
> the forum entirely, or at least from posting.

Hmmm. Blocking dynamic IPs is not very helpful. These IPs belong to a major ISP. AFAIK the next IP will not be restricted to 84.129.228.0/24. You can't block it completely.


> Should this continue, I'd suggest just turning off
> anonymous posting altogether.

Maybe that would help. Although I know a forum that did that and is extremely troll-ridden anyway.

Reply Score: 1

Bored
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 09:03 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

This is sad...

Instead of commenting on the original article, now we get this stupid, childish discussion with someone repeatdly posting the same message (we call that flooding in my hoe town and it gets an inmediate ban, no matter the reason) and some others bashing him?

Is there a possibility to close comments on a certain article in OSNews? I mean, I don't really care who's "right" or "wrong" or whatever, it's the situation in itself.

Reply Score: 1

repsonse to article
by karl on Sat 15th Oct 2005 09:18 UTC
karl
Member since:
2005-07-06

I would like to address some of the points that the author made:

- Raising Windows

Problem: Inactive window is raised as soon as the mouse button is pressed.

Use case: Adam is writing an email with Evolution and wants to add an attachment. He has an open Nautilus window containing the file, which is larger than the Evolution window (e.g. taking the whole screen). Adam now tries to drag&drop the file there, but cannot do this as the Nautilus window covers the Evolution window completely as soon as he tries. He has to move both windows halfway off the screen to do this.

Suggestion: Raise windows on mouse button up, not down. Maybe with additional refinements depending on the object you click.


I don't know to what extent this is possible but if the MIME type associated with the draggable object contained enough information that the application could deduce what the appropriate action is then one could simply drag the object and drop it on the target application with the window list located in the panel.

For example- evolution can only natively open certain file types, evolution does not natively deal with DOC files-so if a MIME application/ms-word object was dropped on evolution in the panel window list evolution concievably be able to deduce that this is an attachment for the currently opened email or open a new email with the object as attachment.

This idea is, for me, a logical extension to being able to drag documents from the desktop and drop them on the associated application icons on the top task bar. If you append '%U' to command line in the .desktop file (accessible via 'properties' from the icon on the panel) the application will be launched displaying the object you dropped on the icon.

Drag and Drop is an amazingly powerful approach- but their is tremendous inconsistency in it's implementation and this has lead people to assume, for the worse, that such functionality is simply not present.

- Drag&Drop saving

Problem: It is possible to open files by drag&dropping them into the application. It is not possible to save in a similar manner.

Use case: Berta is working on a long project that has a complex file structure. She has a Nautilus window open showing "~/Documents/Project/Version A/reallylong/butnecessary/path/texts/" She has a word processor window open with a text she wants to save into that folder. Despite having exactly that folder open, she has to navigate there again in the save dialog.

Suggestion: Add an Icon to the save dialog. Dragging that icon into a file manager window will save the file there , using the specified file name.


Again I would use drag anddrop for solving this problem. My suggestion would be to simply have an icon present in the 'Save File/Save File as' dialog, with the corresponding MIME-type as the to-be-saved document and allow for one to simply drag the icon from the dialog to wherever one wants(ie. the desktop, a folder on the desktop or an open nautilus window). Upon drop the item the file-save dialog would simply close.

As far as hiding the directory structure goes a ser should really only have to see those directories and files which they can deal with- ie. which have ownership/permission corresponding to the actual user. If I launch nautilus as root I should have acess tro everything-but as a user I should only see those directories and files to which I have *access* to. a '.hidden' may be a good way to handle this but the logic is already present in the file choose and in nautilus to discern which ownership/permissions a file/folder has and this could fairly easily be used to dynamically hide that to which I, as a user, have no access.

- "Open Location" Dialog

this is simply a bug and not a feature ;)

- Links break spatial

spot on. nautilus window size/position/display mode information should apply to both the original and the link.....

- Icons on Desktop that *aren't* on Desktop

I agree with the author but I also why this isn't so simple- any application which uses gnomevfs should be able to access any dynamically created desktop folders and icons-but applications which do not use gnomevfs are not aware of such files/folders- in some cases, ie. if it is a local mount of local device, setting a link to the desktop is no real problem-provided that the link is dynamical created and destroyed upon mounting and unmounting the device. But if the files/folders are located elsewhere and only accessible through various protocols (sftp, web-dav etc.) this solution simply cannot work. Unfortunately we do not have a vfs system which adequately bridges both the command line(and apps, which do use a desktop vfs system like gnomevfs or kde-ioslaves, are effectively command-line apps) and the desktop. Fuse is now part of the vanilla kernel and work could be done to integrate this into gnomevfs to create a nearly universal vfs system-but Fuse is Linux specific and GNOME runs on multiple different systems....

- Middle click in browser mode

Another bug....not a feature ;)

- Calendar applet

spot on. another inconsistency-should be easy to fix.

- Cancel in "Add to panel" dialog does *not* cancel


this is just silliness- there was some work going on prior to gnome-2.12 to implement an alternate view, more of an overview, of the various panel applets. I don't know which version actually got used in Breezy, but I also have the permanently greyed out back button here in Gentoo- it seems like they got half way through the process of changing the dialog and just stopped....As for undoing 'add to panel' actions- I doubt it would be easy to simply 'undo' several such actions in one shot- I am sure at the programming level these are discrete actions.....

-> Gnome-Session

absolutely- brilliant suggestion- simple functionality which is missing

I agree with your comment on rubberbanding- this would be really nice.

- File selection with Mouse & Keyboard combination

Thank you very much for pointing this out-this has irked me mutliple times in the past and is quite frustrating. shift-click and ctrl-click should *not* be mutually exclusive operations- only when taken together do they become the powerful selection tools that we want.

I would also love to see the file-chooser allow for this kind of selection activity and I really wish work could be done to make it more visibily obvious whether one is selecting a file or a folder in the file-chooser- some programs use this file-chooser to allow you to import a folder of files-but the visual representation of this action is quite confusing....

And an additional observation:

Bug-buddy has 2 prominent bugs ;)
1) the file-chooser option when saving the bug report is totally confusing due it's misuse of the file-chooser-are we selecting a file which already exists? are we creating a new file ? are we selecting a folder ? -visually no way to discern the action at hand
2) well I finally decided to send GNOME a bug report- and what-do-you-know Bug-Buddy only supports sendmail or dumping a plain-text report in a file. Gee why not include evolution support ? ;)

Reply Score: 2

What's with you people?
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 09:26 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

I do use Gnome and to me it's fine overall (switched from KDE as of v.2.8), but 84.129.228.--- guy cites a lot of valid points. Even if it's copy/paste, why reformulate things every time? I, for one, have never read these two "rants" from him, though I do recall somebody with oGALAXYo handle here. I'm definitely against banning him. Please refute his points if you can. If you don't mod him down, he won't post that much ;-)

Reply Score: 3

RE: What's with you people?
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 10:31 UTC in reply to "What's with you people?"
Anonymous Member since:
---

And, do you know what the really funny part is? The response to his "rants" and "ravings" actually so far does little more than confirm a number of them... But I guess that's too subtle for them. ;)

Reply Score: 0

RE: What's with you people?
by Gryzor on Sat 15th Oct 2005 11:44 UTC in reply to "What's with you people?"
Gryzor Member since:
2005-07-03

I use OS X and Windows, my gnome/kde experience goes back to the year 2001/2002 and prior to that, enlightement...
I have 'tested' some Live CD linux distros and even installed a Fedora, Suse and some other on an almost dead hard disk, just for the sake of doing it.

If what the original poster and the modded poster said is true, the gnome is really having several usability problems.

KDE looks more like Windows (afaicr), but it used to behave correctly; compared to "my world" (Windows, OSX). Gnome looks cool, but I remember having problems with copy-paste not working sometimes, and 'little stuff like that'. When you add a lot of "little stuff" you get a problem "joe user" won't know how to fix.

My 0.02.

Reply Score: 1

usuability is the smaller problem
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 12:16 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Although usability issues are a problem to me the larger problem is real hardware support. For example, I have an HP all-in-one scanner. After learning how to set it up, and spending an hour hacking with FOSS drivers it seems to work well.. but everytime i plug it into my laptop i wonder "Is it going to work this time?" I'm always more suprised when it DOES work without tweaking then when it doesn't. Sometimes the scanner is recognized, sometimes it isn't. This is a huge problem.

This isn't just my specific scanner this applies to most hardware devices that are more complicated than a mouse. Yes, it's fun to hack away and get stuff working but when I need to print out something on my way out the door I don't have the time.

Having said that, device support _IS_ getting better, but real vendor support is the key. The applications on Linux are fine for 90% of the PC market, but until you can go to dell.com or hp.com and buy a machine that is 100% linux supported it's more of a problem than a poorly written dialog box.

I'm sure some will say go to linuxcertified.com - but check out the reviews of their machines. Even the ones that they sell specifically for linux have many hardware/driver issues.

Just my 2cents.

Reply Score: 0

RawMustard
Member since:
2005-10-10

Is a usability nightmare, metacity is so lame in the way it handles window positions, I feel like sticking a fork in my eyes so I can't use a computer anymore ;)

Just try and use Gnome with two large lcd's or a new wide screen lcd and see how long before you feel the same way.

I won't even bother with all of its other shortcoming, they have been beaten to death for far too long now.

And what's worse, is soon as someone say's somthing derogatory about Gnome, the comments are modded down or you're ridiculed to death or called a troll.

Wake up you Gnome Devs, you've been sitting on your fat arses patting yourselves on the back for far too long. It's about time you actually did something constructive like actually make Gnome uasable without feeling you need to stick a fork in your eyes!

Oh and it's about time Totem was either sent to the depest, darkest, depths of hell or actually made to play a media file! - It's 2006 nearly, my phone can play movies better and its only 2 months old ;)

Reply Score: 1

monkeyhead Member since:
2005-07-11

Wake up you Gnome Devs, you've been sitting on your fat arses patting yourselves on the back for far too long. It's about time you actually did something constructive like actually make Gnome uasable without feeling you need to stick a fork in your eyes!

Maybe they're sitting around patting themseles on the back because of the happy gnome users like myself. And obviously there are lots more of us that are pretty happy if we've developed this vast secret conspiracy to strike down any negative views of gnome found on the internet. heh...

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
---

And no, there can't be that many of you considering that you're using consistently the second most popular open source desktop.


You actually believe those internet polls? Wasn't there a poll here some months ago that suggested GNOME was actually more popular.

Reply Score: 0

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

You actually believe those internet polls?

Sorry, you can't use that old chestnut I'm afraid. What are we supposed to believe?

Wasn't there a poll here some months ago that suggested GNOME was actually more popular.

It was an OSNews one, and it really was useless. The poll was only open in parts of the world for very short periods of time, and was shut extremely fast. It wasn't like the desktop consortium one which was open for months, is a lot more stricly conducted and which KDE won convincingly. You're going to have a fairly hard time trying to seriously skew that one I'm afraid.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
---

I see. So you choose which internet poll you decide to believe. Don't believe the osnews poll. Believe $my_favorite_poll.

Reply Score: 0

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

I see. So you choose which internet poll you decide to believe. Don't believe the osnews poll. Believe $my_favorite_poll.

Errr, no. I've told you why the OSNews one was crap and the desktop consortium one wasn't - the only one that is really accurate considering the time that it is on.

You obviously cover your ears and whistle a happy tune, because there's no poll out there that will tell you what you want to hear.

Reply Score: 2

kelvin Member since:
2005-07-06

Just try and use Gnome with two large lcd's or a new wide screen lcd and see how long before you feel the same way.

I've been using GNOME in a Xinerama setting every day for the past two years, and it works fine. I find the Metacity window placements excellent, and the only issue I have is that Nautilus opens new windows straddled across the monitors. What problems have you had?

Reply Score: 1

Gnome
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 16:53 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

The problem is not the contributions. The problem is getting those contributions accepted by the maintainers.

Over the years I realized that the request of contributions is just a poor excuse to avoid conversations with the developers or users who want something to get changed.

Some stuff in gnome-vfs for example was so utterly broken that it wasn't touched for a really long time. There wasn't even a maintainer for it (only a guy who kept putting some stuff in there whenever it was needed). Now some other people seem to have taken over the maintainance of it and the process continues.

But within the GNOME development team I found out (due to own experience) that it's quite difficult if not highly impossible to get some ideas through or to convince a developer that a different approach would have been wiser or better. Not to say save a lot of time. But people kept using the broken components for years.

Even now not everything inside GNOME is sane or reliable and a lot of stuff seem to be reinvented over and over again. See DBUS for example or basic things like "specifications" as found on freedesktop.org. GNOME makes freedesktop.org sound like it's a place for developers from GNOME and KDE to met and declare specifications but this is not always true since KDE had solved most of the necessary things that GNOME still urgently needs years before and their specifications and solutions are often by far better thought through and much more mature - and over the years proven that it also works practically and not just as concept.

For example you can compile KDE with a static prefix in say /opt/kde3 and later on you can move this entire directory to /usr/local/kde3 without the need to recompile anything. On GNOME we sill have the issue that every path is hardcoded inside the binaries so you can't move the entire location if necessary. One of the bad concepts of GNOME.

Another bad thing about GNOME is that the developers do have nice ideas at time but they lack the power or durability to make the changes or visions they have complete. GStreamer for example is indeed a nice technology and it somehow made it's path inside GNOME but still it doesn't feel like it's truly part of GNOME since some apps use it, others avoid using it and stick to xine. Now if these apps stick to xine then chances that GStreamer gets fixed and a whole part of GNOME is low.

Another thing is that plenty of the developers seem to have rotating focus on stuff. Today they work on this one, then tomorrow they focus on hacking on Mozilla or hack on 'dead ideas' they have that no one really takes serious so all the resources of working and fixing GNOME get's lost with playground stuff.

We all know that GNOME was meant to be a corporate desktop. But then a corporate desktop needs different resources and a different approach. Serious project leading is required, strict guidelines are required, and people with brains to enable them.

It can not be (now that the HIG as guideline exists for some years) that applications developer still ignore it. I don't care for third party stuff. But I do care for the important and key elements of GNOME software that should be a good example and follow these guidelines.

GIMP, DIA, Evolution, Abiword, Gnumeric only to name a few are in no way HIG conform. Some are, but others not. I filled in a bug for Gnumeric not long ago pointing the developer to the HIG v2.0 where it says that the Toolbar should obey the rules of Toolbar & Menus capplet (which is a core part of GNOME) unfortunately the bug was closed as not a bug and no further comments have been given to it.

Also printing is a necessary importand thing in GNOME imo and it can't be that I load up GThumb to print a *.gif file and it ends up in printing a totally black picture on a white sheet of paper, wasting nearly 1/3 of my black ink cartridge.

It's also inacceptable for a corporate desktop to have a document reader and viewer like Evince that prints a whole document correctly with correct fonts but as soon as I start printing one page out of it messes the fonts totally up (looks like monotype fonts when printed).

It's the release team to take care of what they include inside GNOME, if the stuff is still immature or not working properly then it should by all means be avoided for inclusion since it doesn't help anyone. GNOME is often claimed to be the desktop to get work done. But I often find myself to do more work in fixing stuff around GNOME rather than getting work done. Printing job applications usually ends the way that I switch into console and print over ghostscript using cups rather than trusting gnome-print or evince (which fault this is I don't know but a confirmed bugreport exists).

As a corporate desktop I urgently require reliable tools and I require these tools today and not - one day. Look DIA, Nautilus, Evolution and many other tools exists for years now and DIA is nowhere to be usable and I often tried giving them a helping hand which I got ugly repsonses from the maintainers.

This does help the corporate idea how ? In no ways does this help anything. I do find the "Tango Project" and "Better Desktop" to be a nice thing but I somehow got the feeling that it's just a reaction towards the plasma project that KDE offers.

Unfortunately in my opinion the KDE people do make a better figure with what they announce because most of the stuff they do works. Sure, not perfectly and sometimes you have quirks and other issues inside KDE as well but the tools exists to get work done. You don't need to think about does it print correctly. It simply does. You don't need to worry about Kivio or Umbrella not working correctly they simply do make a better shape than DIA for example.

KDE may look overwhelming complex and overloaded in the eyes of inexperienced people but in other peoples minds it looks just right and offers all the stuff one really needs without worrying.

I don't say that these things won't show up for GNOME one day but I can tell you from personal experiences that developing for GNOME is a nightmare.

As initially said you can easily move a final compiled KDE binary system from one dir to another and have the stuff work perfectly and perfectly find the datafiles. GNOME doesn't offer that.

Reply Score: 0

v This is UNIX ...
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 16:55 UTC
yawn
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 17:49 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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yes well we could make gnome idiot proof, but then there is always the one idiot that is more idiot like than the rest.... sorry, learn how to work and use your computer that will solve a lot of the issues you mentioned....

I dont see this as anything but nitpicking and as soon as these are fixed someone will just find other things to nitpick....doesnt interest me at all...

Reply Score: 0

Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

You actually believe those internet polls?

When all of them give the same results, time after time. And not to forget mail polls done by magazines showing the same. One can't but wonder if it's something in it, and remember it's never small margins between them either(something like 2 to 1).

Wasn't there a poll here some months ago that suggested GNOME was actually more popular.

Yes, and that poll was heavily manipulated given the timeframe it was run, unintentionally or not. Suddenly closing of after a short time, just when KDE side had gained momentum and nearly overtaken Gnome. That's a well known fact some people tend to ignore when bringing it up.

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous Member since:
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Yeah, people people could also argue the other polls are equally heavily manipulated.

Reply Score: 0

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Yeah, people people could also argue the other polls are equally heavily manipulated.

All of them?! Sorry, no you can't.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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Sure you can. They are internet polls for crying out loud. Do you also believe in fairies?

Reply Score: 0

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Sure you can. They are internet polls for crying out loud.

How? Oh right, yer. People just make up those results and draw those bar graphs themselves without anyone noticing, or people just vote fifty times each so no one will notice. If you'd actually read the guidelines for the desktop consortium poll you'd know that hasn't happened. *sarcasm* Mind you, I've noticed that the people running it are really partizan KDE supporters..... */sarcasm*

Do you also believe in fairies?

Well, since you're obviously one......

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: (amongst other things)...
by Morty on Sat 15th Oct 2005 21:35 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

Yeah, people people could also argue the other polls are equally heavily manipulated.

Right, for more than 5 years people have manipulated absolutely every desktop poll ever made(except one, where someone else was faster to do it). That's rather reasonable, should have consider that option.

But now things get rather of topic, let's try to get back on track.

The list from the article raised a few valid arguments, except those with the filesystem nonsens. About half of the issues actually looked more like real bugs to me, and not actual usability issues. That said, how has the Gnome developers responded? Which of the issues on the list are already fixed or targeted for fixing? What are acknowledged as real issues and whats denied?

Reply Score: 1

My UI idea
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 22:08 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Everyone knows that while spatial desktops create a lot of window clutter, they have their advantages. I've always wanted to have the option to have parent windows automatically close when I'm opening a folder, so I can browse to a folder and not have to remember the cumbersome key combination for close parent windows.

Maybe even in the future with Cairo the parent could morph into the child on screen, it would be a super neet effect.

Reply Score: 0

RE: My UI idea
by Anonymous on Sat 15th Oct 2005 22:30 UTC in reply to "My UI idea"
Anonymous Member since:
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You can do that by middle-clicking on the folder you want to open.

Reply Score: 0

Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

I see. So you choose which internet poll you decide to believe. Don't believe the osnews poll. Believe $my_favorite_poll.

You are a really funny Anonymous. The thing is $my_favorite_poll=(all public polls ever done on the subject)-the osnews poll. Anyway get someone with statistic 101 or some common sense to explain it to you.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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And all these public "internet" polls are statistically accurate, Prof? I still don't believe people who read osnews are gullible to internet polls. I guess I learn something new everyday.

Reply Score: 0

Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

And all these public "internet" polls are statistically accurate, Prof?

Given the large number of different polls, and that they show rather similar results. Indicate rather heavily that they represents an accurate sample of the target audience. Or prof of the existence of some large scale organized effort to skew all the poll results.

I guess I learn something new everyday.
And if you make a habit out of accumulating information from several sources and correlate those, while you apply some common sense and well known facts. Rather than making up your mind in advance you will learn even more.

Reply Score: 0

morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

Let's comprehend a few things here. Why does KDE consistently come up as the #1 used desktop environment in online polls (although I agree that they're not always accurate etc). Why are there more KDE based distros than Gnome ones? Or, why, when a distro offers both Gnome and KDE, do they consistently choose KDE as the default?

The KDE "licensing issue" that most Gnome users whinge about is nothing to worry about imho. Corporate users can still use KDE on their corporate desktops. However, if they wish to make customised stuff, to integrate with the KDE desktop, then they have to buy a trolltech license. I fail to see the issue with this.

Let's look at this from a slightly different angle - you own a hardware company, say, manufacturing mice. You want to use the "windows certified hardware" logo, so that your brand is deemed to be totally compatible with Microsoft Windows. Do you realise how much you have to pay Microsoft for that honour? Microsoft has set their operating system up, so that if you're installing a manufacturer's hardware, it prompts you with the "you're not installing cerfified drivers, it may cause issues with Windows" etc. What a load of bollocks! However, it confuses many users, who frequently would panic and cancel the install, thinking something was going to be broken. Do I hear people bitching about this issue? Nope. Then stop friggen bitching about the KDE issue.

Dave

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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However, if they wish to make customised stuff, to integrate with the KDE desktop, then they have to buy a trolltech license.

no, they don't have to buy anything
they need a license only if they plan to redistribute what they have written. if they keep their software inside their organisation, they can do whatever they want with Qt/KDE without paying a cent
it's the gpl!

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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Let's comprehend a few things here. Why does KDE consistently come up as the #1 used desktop environment in online polls (although I agree that they're not always accurate etc).

Because online polls are inaccurate, skewed and unscientific. Sheesh, that's what people have been trying to say all day.

Reply Score: 0

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Because online polls are inaccurate, skewed and unscientific. Sheesh, that's what people have been trying to say all day.

Try reading some of the comments and using your brain then. If you have a lot of online polls, and one in the desktop consortium poll that is on for months, and the results have been the same for years, it's actually telling you something. What are KDE fanboys doing? Voting fifty times each, which they can't do in stuff like the desktop consortium poll because people would definitely notice? Where's the evidence of Gnome's share of the userbase?

Anything to the contrary is just shear denial. Sheesh.

Reply Score: 2

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Personally I'm u Gnome user, but I acknowledge the fact that KDE is no. 1 in popularity and Gnome no. 2 (in Europe that is).

However. It seems to be reverse in USA with Gnome as no.1 and KDE as no. 2.

But this is all statistic, and we all know that there are:

1) Lies,
2) Damned lies,
3) Statistic.

Personally I use Gnome, because it's the more OO desktop and the one closest to the experience from OS/2. Other people are used to the desktop working differently and so they use something else than Gnome or they are configuring Gnome differently.

Spatial browsing is something I really don't like. Other people cannot live without it. And all I'm waiting for is proper support for D'n'D (especially in regard to printing).

Reply Score: 1

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Morty's post should not have been modded down to -2.

Yet another abuse of the modding point here.

Cool of, guys. A DE is not the most important thing in life.

Nice bikini clad young blondes with long hair is more important in your age - but apparently you have forgotten it?

It could be fun to see the average age for the OSNews.user ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Gnome usability II
by Morty on Sun 16th Oct 2005 01:16 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

And put up with some very poor losers that visit the osnews.com website and actively mod down posts that they disagree with. I'd suggest some of the pro Gnome users actually read the osnews.com guidelines for modding. And then learn to curb their trigger happy fingers and cease modding down posts inappropriately - merely disagree with a post is no means to mod it down.

And what you say got nicely prooven by those same losers, when they went on a down moding spree just now.

I can mod you up if you want, or we can let it stand as it is showing how correct you were:-)

Reply Score: 1

v RE[3]: Gnome usability II
by freakyc on Sun 16th Oct 2005 15:32 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Gnome usability II"
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

You obviously cover your ears and whistle a happy tune, because there's no poll out there that will tell you what you want to hear.

He certainly does, but not whistling I think. More like a spoiled child covering his ears and shouting his chant contrary of what he is told, with some "I cant hear you" thrown in. You usually encounter the kind near the candy section in shops, with parents wearing a painfull expressions. But most kids stops this kind of behavior when they get older. Obviously not all.

My favorite when it comes to the polls are Linux Journal's Readers' Choice Awards. It's not even a web poll, you have to vote by mail. This quote from 2004 sums it up nicely:
For several years now, KDE and GNOME have finished first and second, respectively, with an ever-increasing distance between the two. This year, KDE received two votes for every one GNOME received.

Reply Score: 1

Shut up and get over it
by Anonymous on Sun 16th Oct 2005 02:28 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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You know, if you guys would simply shut the hell up about which desktop got more votes, there wouldn't even be a flame war right now. It doesn't even matter in any real sense.

As for you people claiming it's anti-anti-Gnome sentiment causing your posts to be modded down, get the clue. You are being modded down because your words aren't doing anything but fueling the fire of another pointless flame war. Doing so is specifically cited in the rules as a reason that posts shall be modded down.

The admins need to ban the people starting these flame wars rolling (clearly, oGALAXYo in this case) instead of allowing this stupidity to continue unabated.

...and just a reminder, if someone's talking about a particular feature of one desktop or the other, it is not necessary to talk about how much better/worse someone else's implementation is. Either it's better than it was in it's last release, or it's not. That's what matters. This post was supposed to be about a particular user's problem list resulting from their examination of some software--instead, I think I might actually be the first person in the entire thread to seriously mention it.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Shut up and get over it
by dylansmrjones on Sun 16th Oct 2005 10:43 UTC in reply to "Shut up and get over it"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Actually it was anonymous persons who started the flaming and trolling.

oGalaxyo only came up with a link and got modded down immediately.

Then he lost his temper and kept reposting (he explained this and has said sorry - good enough for me) and the anonymous in here kept attacking him, with support from people not exactly known for their clever suggestions.

I disagree with oGalaxyo in most issues, but there was absolutely no reason what so ever to mod his posts down.

I'm a Gnome user (and Fluxbox and Windows user and OS/2 and Amiga (though the latter only in emulator)) and happy for it. Some are KDE users and happy for it (KDE does have a couple of sexy tools IMO).

It's sad that this thread ended as it did, but blame it on the abusers of the modding point system.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Shut up and get over it
by Anonymous on Sun 16th Oct 2005 12:14 UTC in reply to "RE: Shut up and get over it"
Anonymous Member since:
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You clearly don't know oGalaxyo/Ali.

He's been on that "troll flamefest -> sorry won't happen anymore" loop for years now. He's got no credibility at all.

He's slandered gnome board members and developers, insulted people that answered him in good terms and then acted outraged because he was identified and labeled as a madman. His rants about his reputation being damaged because of a supposed sect of anonymous users are legendary now.

And people still fall for the "I'm modded down before being read! I'm being oppressed!". Bizarre.

Moderation abuse? Perhaps. But try to read it at -5. It's a gigantic Ali rant filled with posts from other news with slight changes. Looks like this abuse is benign.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Shut up and get over it
by segedunum on Sun 16th Oct 2005 13:43 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Shut up and get over it"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

He's been on that "troll flamefest -> sorry won't happen anymore" loop for years now. He's got no credibility at all.

He's slandered gnome board members and developers, insulted people that answered him in good terms and then acted outraged because he was identified and labeled as a madman. His rants about his reputation being damaged because of a supposed sect of anonymous users are legendary now.


Give his concerns a straight answer then. If you can't it does not reflect well, does it?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Shut up and get over it
by segedunum on Sun 16th Oct 2005 13:41 UTC in reply to "Shut up and get over it"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

As for you people claiming it's anti-anti-Gnome sentiment causing your posts to be modded down, get the clue. You are being modded down because your words aren't doing anything but fueling the fire of another pointless flame war.

No. What do you think your post is? You're not addressing any of the issues or answering any of the comments of anyone else. You're just whinging about banning people who you cannot give a straight answer to.

The admins need to ban the people starting these flame wars rolling (clearly, oGALAXYo in this case) instead of allowing this stupidity to continue unabated.

No. He was expressing his opinions and experiences, and those have gone unanswered except for whinging "mod this down" posts like yours.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Shut up and get over it
by Morty on Sun 16th Oct 2005 02:56 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

As for you people claiming it's anti-anti-Gnome sentiment causing your posts to be modded down

The modding of morgoth's post clearly prove that claim to be true so.....

What should be baned are Anonymous postings, demanding little accountability for ones postings. As for oGALAXYo, he is something of a special case as he always gets modded down on topic or not. But he stands for his comments, and that's more than can be said of others.

This post was supposed to be about a particular user's problem list resulting from their examination of some software--instead, I think I might actually be the first person in the entire thread to seriously mention it.

Wrong, several others has too, but for the most part they got either modded down or ignored.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Shut up and get over it
by dylansmrjones on Sun 16th Oct 2005 10:47 UTC in reply to "RE: Shut up and get over it"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

You're right about that one.

And no, I'm not a anti-Gnomer. I'm extremely fond of Gnome, but that doesn't mean that I like the behaviour of the many Mr. Nonames.

I don't believe it's due to anti-Gnome feelings that some people are getting modded down.

This also happens if you critisize KDE or Windows or generally comes up with issues. If you come with facts it tends to get even worse.

It's a general phenomenon, I'm afraid. I've seen it so many times in so many places, that you cannot set the behaviour equal to Gnome-fanboys in any way.

It's a matter of lacking debate culture. No more, no less.

Reply Score: 1

For First Example
by Anonymous on Sun 16th Oct 2005 13:53 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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If I wanted to drag and drop from Nautilus into an instance of Evolution that is covered I would:

1) click and hold on the file
2) Move Cursor down to Evolution on Windows List on bottom panel
3) Wait for Evolution to pop up
4) then move the cursor to where i want to drop
5) release cursor.

All done a dusted.

Reply Score: 1

RE: For First Example
by Anonymous on Sun 16th Oct 2005 14:45 UTC in reply to "For First Example"
Anonymous Member since:
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This is certainly possible and a useful feature. But:

- Is this function discoverable? Or will users never know about it and just shuffle windows around all the time? It's not like drag&drop is an advanced power-user feature
- Is the movement as simple? It seems harder, especially for people with touchpads, or people who are not terribly proficient with using mouses. This means more potential errors and wasted time.
- Is it as fast? You have to move the mouse far more, have to hit a much smaller target area, *and* have to wait until the other window comes up.

For such a common action, especially in a spatial environment, this should be as fast and easy as possible.

Reply Score: 0

v Who cares
by Anonymous on Sun 16th Oct 2005 20:56 UTC
going nowhere fast
by Anonymous on Mon 17th Oct 2005 03:02 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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"Gnome or KDE are going nowhere fast. Qt has a bad license and Gnome has a bad SDK."
windows has both, but that doesn't seem to have stopped it.

Reply Score: 0