Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 27th Nov 2005 15:25 UTC
Games Devotees waited hours in the cold for the long-awaited, next-generation game console. But reports of system malfunctions indicate that the launch honeymoon may be over. Microsoft was quick to respond, stating that "the call rate is well below what you'd expect for a consumer electronic product of this complexity."
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null_pointer_us
Member since:
2005-08-19

I know it was a standard thing to say, but sometimes I just find myself wondering how these strange expressions came to be. Lovesick geeks, perhaps?

BTW, I saw Prescott "heating up" a PowerMac in the alley. Uh huh, honest and truly. And did you know that Windows and Itanium are breaking up over that whole in-order execution thing?

This is just too wierd...

Reply Score: 4

Well....
by dylansmrjones on Sun 27th Nov 2005 15:53 UTC
dylansmrjones
Member since:
2005-10-02

What else would the marketing company say?

"We don't ******* care about our ******* reputation, you ******* bitch!!" ... I don't think so.

The question is how fast they can solve it properly ;)

Reply Score: 1

News like these...
by Anonymous on Sun 27th Nov 2005 16:05 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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News like this one shouldn't appear on OSNEWS. It's just techie sensationalism...

Ey, when every new piece of hardware is introduced you always find machines with some type of errors. That's not uncommon.

Even with the famous PS2, the last revision doesn't support all of the PS2 games!!!

Reply Score: 2

RE: News like these...
by Anonymous on Sun 27th Nov 2005 18:40 UTC in reply to "News like these..."
Anonymous Member since:
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From what i've read, it seems that the xbox360 really has more (and various) problems than any other game console i owned. The hard thing is to have some numbers, is it 1/1000 or 1/50? Difficult to base anything on forums or ms comunication. Add the fact that more console gamers have an internet connexion those days and that some sony fanboy could had a bit of noise..
How about a real survey right from the stores?

Concerning the xbox360, one cannot deny that it packs a lot of power for its time and price. But it's maybe too early or too cheap.
Also i think there are too much moving parts and since the supernes times we've added a cdrom player, cooling systems, harddrives.
Those are less reliable than pure solid state hardware, so we can safely assume that an xbox360 is less reliable than a supernes.

But in general, it's not because the majority of tech vendors sell you beta/unfonctional products at launch that we must accept that.
I don't see why "higher technology" has to mean lower reliability.

We're really too docile these days.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: News like these...
by CPUGuy on Sun 27th Nov 2005 19:01 UTC in reply to "RE: News like these..."
CPUGuy Member since:
2005-07-06

All the 'varying' problems though are all generated from overheating issues. I guarentee that most of the people having problems have their 360 in a place where they are either covering up the air vents on the unit, or just in too confined of an area.

Not to say that there aren't other issues here. The cooling system in the 360 should be better, as the 360 is something that will be stacked with all kinds of other equipment and such. They should have taken into account that they would be getting poor ventilation.

We will see how they fix the problem though.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: News like these...
by Anonymous on Sun 27th Nov 2005 22:02 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: News like these..."
Anonymous Member since:
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By CPUGuy on 2005-11-27 19:01:23 UTC in reply to "RE: News like these..."
All the 'varying' problems though are all generated from overheating issues. I guarentee that most of the people having problems have their 360 in a place where they are either covering up the air vents on the unit, or just in too confined of an area.

Not to say that there aren't other issues here. The cooling system in the 360 should be better, as the 360 is something that will be stacked with all kinds of other equipment and such. They should have taken into account that they would be getting poor ventilation.

We will see how they fix the problem though.


If people put their 360's in a tight location that isn't vented properly, it doesn't matter how good Microsoft's cooling capabilities are: The console is going to overheat. Even liquid cooling isn't going to help much in that circumstance. You need to transfer the heat to another location.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: News like these...
by CPUGuy on Mon 28th Nov 2005 13:56 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: News like these..."
CPUGuy Member since:
2005-07-06

This is true.

Reply Score: 1

RE: News like these...
by Anonymous on Sun 27th Nov 2005 21:27 UTC in reply to "News like these..."
Anonymous Member since:
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Answer this: How do you happen to know that this is a common thing..? Right, because it's in the news. For the same reason, this is news...

Reply Score: 0

RE: News like these...
by Anonymous on Sun 27th Nov 2005 16:24 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Huge difference between a backword compatability software layer and an overheating system.
(software vs. hardware)

That is BS for any product. Would you say that about a TV, DVD player, TiVo? No. You would return it.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[2]: News like these...
by setuid_w00t on Sun 27th Nov 2005 19:16 UTC in reply to "RE: News like these..."
Well...
by dylansmrjones on Sun 27th Nov 2005 16:30 UTC
dylansmrjones
Member since:
2005-10-02

These two put it pretty well ;)

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20051127

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20051126


But then... remember, Microsoft is not the only one who has issues with hardware or software.

Reply Score: 2

Wait until EU and JP launches
by Marcellus on Sun 27th Nov 2005 18:03 UTC
Marcellus
Member since:
2005-08-26

I'd wait until the EU and JP launches before drawing any conclusion about success or failure of the XBox 360.

Reply Score: 1

skingers6894 Member since:
2005-08-10

In fact, I'd wait until the we see who is standing for the next, next generation consoles to decide if the XBOX 360 has been a success. There is a LONG way to go.

Reply Score: 1

XBOX 360 Rocks
by Anonymous on Sun 27th Nov 2005 18:18 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Mine runs like a champ.

No problems at all.

Reply Score: 1

Launch
by Anonymous on Sun 27th Nov 2005 18:18 UTC
Anonymous
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Osnews had nothing to say about the launch of the 360, which was nothing short of a tickle-me-elmo frenzy, yet when some errors show up a story emerges. No anti-MS here at all!

Reply Score: 0

RE: Launch
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 27th Nov 2005 18:36 UTC in reply to "Launch"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Osnews had nothing to say about the launch of the 360, which was nothing short of a tickle-me-elmo frenzy, yet when some errors show up a story emerges. No anti-MS here at all!

Sonny, right after the launch, there were numerous reports all over the net about the machine exploding and what not. Instread of going with the hype, focussing on how the machine exploded and such, I decided to await MS' official response, before jumping on the hype-train. Then I'd report on the launch, together with MS' official repsonse, to make it more balanced. Happy now, sonny?

Please stop this nonsense about us being anti-anything. Next time, your comment, or any similar one, will go down the drain.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Launch
by Budd on Sun 27th Nov 2005 20:40 UTC in reply to "RE: Launch"
Budd Member since:
2005-07-08

Thom, you'll still have to grow a bit to call anyone sonny. The fact that,by chance, you got an "editor" position here doesn't give you the right to be a complete idiot.
Een buurman

Reply Score: 3

v RE[2]: Launch
by Anonymous on Mon 28th Nov 2005 00:12 UTC in reply to "RE: Launch"
Sonny
by Anonymous on Sun 27th Nov 2005 18:42 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I'm not your Son Thom, and you still missed the launch news with respect to sales, lines, etc. I don't mind at all that you are reporting the glitches, as that is valid news, but missing the launch DOES seem odd, considering how big it was. Quit insulting your readers and just do your job Thom.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Sonny
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 27th Nov 2005 18:46 UTC in reply to "Sonny"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

I did not miss it, but with every report I read, it stated there were problems. So, if I would've reported those problems *then*, probably way too premature, without an official response from MS, you'd still accuse me of being anti-MS.

It doesn't matter what we as OSNews staff do, people like you will always find something to bitch and moan about. I'm pro and anti everything at the same time, if I were to believe people like you.

Sonny.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Sonny
by Rehdon on Sun 27th Nov 2005 18:55 UTC in reply to "RE: Sonny"
Rehdon Member since:
2005-07-06

Mr. has already stated that calling him/her "sonny" is not ok: could you please show some good manners and refrain from such a childish abuse of your position? Thank you.

rehdon

P.S. The fact that I largely agree with you doesn't mean you're doing the right thing insulting posters, albeit anonymous. Next time count to ten before replying.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Sonny
by Rehdon on Sun 27th Nov 2005 18:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Sonny"
Rehdon Member since:
2005-07-06

Mr. Anonymous has already stated that calling him/her "sonny" is not ok: could you please show some good manners and refrain from such a childish abuse of your position? Thank you.

rehdon

P.S. The fact that I largely agree with you doesn't mean you're doing the right thing insulting posters, albeit anonymous and/or in error. Next time count to ten before replying.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Sonny
by StephenBeDoper on Sun 27th Nov 2005 21:55 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Sonny"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

Mr. Anonymous has already stated that calling him/her "sonny" is not ok:

Perhaps Mr. Anonymous should grow a thicker skin before venturing online again.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
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Sure these hardware problems are annoying, but if there were some good games people would ignore the hardware problems.

All the games they have right now look like rushed ports. Most of the games are sequels to games that people have already played. Most of the games look just like the old versions with the resolution turned up. Sure this seems great for the AV geeks out there that have already bought an hdtv, but for regular people are hooking the xbox 360 up to an sdtv.

If there was a killer game the comments would be more along the lines of: "OMG game x is soo cool! The graphics are so good! Some people are having crashing problems, but who cares game x is soo cool!". Without a killer game or incredible graphics that statement is left with: "Some people are having crashing problems." which is what we are seeing now.

Reply Score: 0

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

I must say I agree. These days, the gaming industry is pretty much dead innovation-wise. All the good games have already been made, pretty much all gaming genres have been milked like cows to death, none of the major competitors are willing to take risks with new concepts anymore (save Nintendo).

And that's a shame. Today it's all about graphics, network play, even better graphics, and, UGH, even harddrives.

'Gaming consoles' with harddrives. Just-- wrong.

Reply Score: 5

Anonymous Member since:
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These days, the gaming industry is pretty much dead innovation-wise. All the good games have already been made, pretty much all gaming genres have been milked like cows to death, [...]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yup. Though I didn't buy it, there's been alot of complaining about Doom 3. They say the graphics are fantastic, but gameplay is outdated.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
'Gaming consoles' with harddrives. Just-- wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What's wrong with hard drives in consoles?

Reply Score: 0

GregV Member since:
2005-07-06

Couldn't agree more about the games. Atari will live on forever in my bood ;) , though I disagree with you on the harddrive support. I like not having to buy a memory card to save games.

Reply Score: 1

Mediocre Sarcasm Man Member since:
2005-07-06

These days, the gaming industry is pretty much dead innovation-wise.

Maybe a little late, but I really have to disagree here. Nintendo is still innovating with no end in sight.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous
Member since:
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Meh, the biggest problem with X-Boxes is knowing so little about freedom and Microsoft's strategy that you'll buy one and damage your own future entertainment and work life.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Meh, the biggest problem with X-Boxes is knowing so little about freedom and Microsoft's strategy that you'll buy one and damage your own future entertainment and work life.

No, your biggest problem is hyperbole. Give me a break. As if a machine that costs $400 is going to "damage your own future entertainment and work life." People upgrade to new entertainment equipment as it evolves. Nobody is locked into anything. Sheez.

Reply Score: 0

Replacement supply
by Anonymous on Sun 27th Nov 2005 18:55 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I wonder if MS will have any problems fixing/replacing these units. I read on xbox.com that they will have the repaired unit back to you in two days and if it can't be repaired you'll get a new unit. If MS has a shortage of units to sell, wouldn't they also have a shortage of units to replace faulty ones with?

Thom's insists he's my Daddy, so I love him lots 'n lots!

Reply Score: 0

RE: Replacement supply
by null_pointer_us on Sun 27th Nov 2005 22:28 UTC in reply to "Replacement supply"
null_pointer_us Member since:
2005-08-19

I wonder if MS will have any problems fixing/replacing these units. I read on xbox.com that they will have the repaired unit back to you in two days and if it can't be repaired you'll get a new unit. If MS has a shortage of units to sell, wouldn't they also have a shortage of units to replace faulty ones with?

I heard that MS is holding back some of the consoles to create a sold-out launch. No idea why that would be true, but it probably has something to do with marketing. Anyway, producers do reserve a few units so that they have enough to cover returns due to manufacturing defects.

Reply Score: 1

davisable
Member since:
2005-07-10

This reeks of a rushed release.

There is no reason this many problems should be happening all over.

Reply Score: 1

Rushed
by Anonymous on Sun 27th Nov 2005 20:21 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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MS wanted to be the first out with their next gen console, so I think they rushed the initial release. Conspiracy theory? The dearth of 360s might indicate that they made just enough, and quick enough, to be the first out and that the expected delivery date of the next batch (February in the UK) reflects a more realistic release time-frame.

Other than that I played one at our local video store, and the thing is prretty darn good.

I'm sure MS will address the issues and make the next batch better...

Reply Score: 0

first production always sucks
by re_re on Sun 27th Nov 2005 20:21 UTC
re_re
Member since:
2005-07-06

Everyone should learn it's best to wait till the second generation of a console comes out (or a revision of the first) before buying it. Remember the first Playstations, the first PS2's, the first xbox... they all sucked, they all had problems, after a period of months they fixed most of the problems and put out a good product.

Also keep in mind that if people were a little more cautious about buying a console the same day it comes out, Microsoft, Sony and whoever else would put more energy into quality control to move the units faster (gain the faith of the conusmer).

Reply Score: 1

Just a few glitches I am sure.
by Dually on Sun 27th Nov 2005 20:23 UTC
Dually
Member since:
2005-07-26

A few friends of mine have already ordered their new 360s I said I would hold off like I did with the first xbox. As always its not always best to get a first generation hardware product right away without knowing of possable problems.

I hope more details come out about the percent of units with issues and if they are all related to the same defect be it hardware or software.

I am wondering what the mod community will be cooking up for these new toys and if the mods will be as easy to install as on the original Xbox. Should be interesting ;)

Reply Score: 1

actual numbers...
by Anonymous on Sun 27th Nov 2005 20:50 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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...show, that the amount of defect xboxes are in the normal range of any electronic device. of course selective awareness is capable of fading those kind of news out when the topic is an ms product.

Reply Score: 0

PPC Mac OS X
by Anonymous on Sun 27th Nov 2005 21:05 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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The real question is, can the 360s run Mac OS X Tiger? Because that would be one fast Powermac!

Reply Score: 0

Expected
by Anonymous on Sun 27th Nov 2005 21:16 UTC
Anonymous
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I expected this, for one they limited how many units they made, which tells me they expected problems, and therefore did not want to make too many units till they had a the bugs figured out.

Seconly, the system seemed REALLY rushed, so you'll have that, it's Microsoft after all.

Then again being Microsoft the Hardware will prolly improve by next generation, but alas WINDOWS WILL ALWAYS SUCK! ;)

Reply Score: 0

Personally..
by gamma on Sun 27th Nov 2005 21:56 UTC
gamma
Member since:
2005-07-06

I haven't had any issues with the console, and I've had it running 24/7 pretty much since launch since there's always someone that wants to play it. It runs hot, but it runs well. I know for a fact there are people on the fanboy sites such as teamxbox, talkxbox, xbox-scene, etc. that don't actually own the system, but are joining in with the crowd claiming they have these issues.

I'm personally glad another company (Microsoft) decided to jump in and fill the void Sega left when they quit out of the console market. When there isn't competition, people do little to innovate, but I'm sure we'll see the best from Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft this generation now that they're competing for the market share.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Personally..
by Anonymous on Sun 27th Nov 2005 22:09 UTC in reply to "Personally.."
Anonymous Member since:
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I haven't had any issues with the console, and I've had it running 24/7 pretty much since launch since there's always someone that wants to play it. It runs hot, but it runs well. I know for a fact there are people on the fanboy sites such as teamxbox, talkxbox, xbox-scene, etc. that don't actually own the system, but are joining in with the crowd claiming they have these issues.

I haven't had any problems, either, and like you my machine stays up all the time. I'm not surprised that a lot of anti-Microsoft trolls are out spreading negative propaganda about the product. They just can't stand the fact that Microsoft beat Sony and Nintendo to market by a year. Personally, I think the machine is amazing. Superb graphics and sound. Good workmanship. The folks that are complaining about quality problems either don't own a unit and are trolling -- or they're full of crap.

For all of you trolls, here's something to consider.
Microsoft is a publicly traded company. It won't be able to hide defective unit rates. These will be attributed as costs to its bottom line. So, I have a feeling that, when all of this is said and done, we will find out that the negative publicity was a load of BS being carted in by Internet con artists.

Reply Score: 0

The real problem.
by Anonymous on Sun 27th Nov 2005 23:07 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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The only problem I've read is that they are having an overheating issue with the external power supply. If you ventilate it well, you won't have any problems. Drop over to slashdot for more information. Thats where I found the article.

Reply Score: 0

so does this mean...?
by Anonymous on Sun 27th Nov 2005 23:46 UTC
Anonymous
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"the call rate is well below what you'd expect for a consumer electronic product of this complexity."

So does this mean they had the the intent to make a machine that no one should be able to use with out help?
I may have been out of the console loop for a while , but that is the stupidest quote i have seen from this company to date.

Reply Score: 0

XBox 360 sucks
by Anonymous on Mon 28th Nov 2005 01:42 UTC
Anonymous
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Since when did Microsoft get all these fanboys? Are you guys MS employees? Let's look at the facts:

1. The XBox 360 is experiencing very untimely technical issues. The PS2 had similar issues but it was the FIRST system with graphics that could compete (barely) with the PC. Sony got a pass because everyone wanted state-of-the-art graphics on a console and Sony delivered first. Factor in that the Xbox's graphics were only marginally better than the PS2's and that Sony released better games (Halo notwithstanding) and Sony cleaned MS's clock.

2. Sony won't get the same traction by being first out of the gate this time because people have come to expect excellent graphics on consoles. Believe it or not the original Xbox is HELPING Sony in this regard. Microsoft already had the graphically superior system so being first to market means MS took ALL the risk on the next-gen consoles. By the time the PS3 is released, the Xbox may have developed a reputation as a bad machine... even if it doesn't a year is a LONG time regarding technology. Sony will use the time to bring a mature product with NOTICEABLY superior graphics and gameplay to market. The PS3 will be perceived as a more advanced system simply because time will have increased expectations and Sony will deliver a mature product utilizing state-of-the-art technology. The Xbox 360 will look old and worn in comparison.

3. For all of MS's vaunted development tools, gameplay on the PS2 is noticeably better. Sony will bring out a graphically superior system with better gameplay a year from now... the time delay will make most people think the PS3 will and upgrade from the Xbox 360. It will be significantly "newer and better" so Sony will not be competing directly with the Xbox 360 in a year, it will be SUPERCEDING it. Microsoft may have a year headstart but it will need that year to fix its technical issues and improve its reputation as a solid product all the while taking a $200 bath on each unit. The costs of components for the PS3 will have dropped enough in that year that Sony will take a FRACTION of the loss on its units while still having full backwards compatibility, a mature library of NEW RELEASES (remember, Sony's developers are getting an extra year to put a good spit-polish on their games), and mature hardware that should be rock-solid when it is released.

I could continue but the point is made. The technical issues surrounding the Xbox 360 is precisely why Sony decided to wait a year. While MS bleeds money and scrambles to maintain the reputation of its unit, Sony cleans up its own technical issues, watches the prices for the components of its unit plunge, and gives developers a full extra year to make the best games. Every move has a counter-move and Sony played the right one. Microsoft would have had to come out with something PHENOMENAL and ROCK-SOLID to gain the advantage and everyone knows that ain't gonna happen. Hell, almost everyone who has seen the two systems side-by-side says that the PS3 has SIGNIFICANTLY better graphics than the 360 RIGHT NOW... think of what an extra year will do. Sony may blow chunks as a CE company but they almost never slip when it comes to consoles. Hell, even with the PSP issues, they've achieved parity with Nintendo on handhelds, something NO other company has been able to do. They won the war between the Xbox and the PS2 and they'll win the war between the 360 and the PS3. Don't be surprised to see MS out of the console space in five years.

Reply Score: 0

RE: XBox 360 sucks
by Anonymous on Mon 28th Nov 2005 04:28 UTC in reply to "XBox 360 sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
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1. The XBox 360 is experiencing very untimely technical issues.

We don't know this to be true. It has been alleged by random, anonymous people on a public forum. We don't know if these issues are real or, if they are, how widespread. Don't leap to conclusions based on non-existent data. It makes you look like a fool.

By the time the PS3 is released, the Xbox may have developed a reputation as a bad machine... even if it doesn't a year is a LONG time regarding technology. Sony will use the time to bring a mature product with NOTICEABLY superior graphics and gameplay to market. The PS3 will be perceived as a more advanced system simply because time will have increased expectations and Sony will deliver a mature product utilizing state-of-the-art technology. The Xbox 360 will look old and worn in comparison.

First of all, MS isn't going to just sit with their thumbs up their arses during the year that it takes Sony to release something. Second, Sony has its share of development problems. They're notoriously late, they have a reputation for hyping the crap out of their game consoles (just like MS), and they will likely NOT be as cracked up as you think they are.

3. For all of MS's vaunted development tools, gameplay on the PS2 is noticeably better.

Compared to what? Xbox? Or Xbox360? Either way, you're smoking crack. Seriously, who's your dealer?


The technical issues surrounding the Xbox 360 is precisely why Sony decided to wait a year.

No, Sony decided to wait because they AREN'T FINISHED and CAN'T RAMP UP PRODUCTION IN TIME.


While MS bleeds money and scrambles to maintain the reputation of its unit, Sony cleans up its own technical issues, watches the prices for the components of its unit plunge, and gives developers a full extra year to make the best games.

Consider this. Nobody is buying PS2s anymore. Similarly, the fact that PS3 is coming out will put a crimp on PS2 game sales. People are going to wait until PS3 comes out before making investments. They don't want to play PS2 games under emulation. MS has $40B or more in the bank to burn through. It can well afford to lose money on every console in order to win market share. Sony can't do that. And I guarantee you this: Sony isn't making money on their consoles, either.

Every move has a counter-move and Sony played the right one.

Well, I suppose if you're given lemons, you need to do something with them. Might as well make lemonade. You're obviously bothered that Sony didn't come out first. I don't blame you. People are going to start saying that Sony squandered its lead in game consoles.

Microsoft would have had to come out with something PHENOMENAL and ROCK-SOLID to gain the advantage and everyone knows that ain't gonna happen.

Are you familiar with Moore's Law? If not, look it up. MS has modified its Xbox game hardware numerous times in the past to gain the advantage of improvements in performance and lower cost. A year is a long time. MS certainly isn't blocked from making improvements to its hardware. And consider this: Microsoft has the entire PC industry developing faster hardware for it. Sony doesn't. It went the proprietary route -- and it's going to pay for that choice, while MS gets the advantage of economy of scale.

Hell, almost everyone who has seen the two systems side-by-side says that the PS3 has SIGNIFICANTLY better graphics than the 360 RIGHT NOW... think of what an extra year will do. Sony may blow chunks as a CE company but they almost never slip when it comes to consoles.

What are you comparing? Nothing. You're looking at a single game. Or whatever. That's a ridiculous comparison.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: XBox 360 sucks
by Anonymous on Mon 28th Nov 2005 05:25 UTC in reply to "RE: XBox 360 sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
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Dude, your fanboy response is exactly the reason I wrote my original post. You didn't actually refute anything I said, you just threw around pointless conjectures. Let's address your points:

1. Technical problems for Xbox are "unconfirmed"

That's why they are being so widely reported. I guess everyone is anti-Microsoft. Ummmmm...... yeah.

2. Gameplay on PS2 isn't better than original Xbox

I thought this was a common fact and explained why PS2s outsell Xboxen almost 4 to 1 but oh well, it's not worth arguing about.

3. Sony's waiting due to production issues

It wouldn't take a whole year to ramp up production. In fact, it would be easier to develop economies of scale if Sony was actually shipping the product. Either way, the delay helps Sony more than it helps Microsoft.

4. No one's buying PS2s anymore

That's called SATURATION, one of the best problems to have. That means Sony games are flying off the shelves. Do you think sales of PS2 titles have stopped or even slowed down? Hate to blow out your candles but the gravy train is still rolling. Most analysts agree that 100 million is the saturation point for a game console and no gaming company has come as close to the magic number as Sony. Sony is actually running out of customers for the PS2. That is unprecedented.

5. You're bothered that Sony didn't come out first.

Like I said before, Sony gains little from hitting the market first and risks alot. Check Microsoft. It was smart business, plain and simple. Microsofties are going to be left scratching their heads when PS3s outsell 360s. I told you why.

6. Microsoft has economies of scale

The same economies of scale work for Sony because the majority of the parts in the PS3 are found in both the 360 and Nintendos Revolution (which will probably hit the market before the PS3) and the rest are standard components. Microsoft will improve its units but, by the time the PS3 comes out, they will be considered old technology, true or not. Microsoft's best bet is its Live service... my bet is that MS is hinging its bets on building a significant subscriber base to lock people into the platform. That's great business and it might succeed. If it doesn't, Sony is going to eat their lunch again in unit sales and installed base. Both companies will lose money on unit sales but economies of scale coupled with Sony's year long delay means Sony will take a substantially lower hit than Microsoft which, by the time the PS3 comes out, will have lost tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars subsidizing the 360.

7. The PS3 doesn't have significantly better graphics than the 360

Sorry, almost every account that I've read gives Sony the clear edge regardless of title. Granted they were comparing demos but the demos were levels from actual games not custom designed demos to show off the hardware. Unilaterally, the Xbox graphics were called "1.5" while the PS3's were called "definitely third generation." You should be able to find plenty of info online to confirm this.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I personally am looking forward to the Revolution, which I think will have graphics better than the 360 (I think the GameCube's graphics were superior to the original Xbox but that's just my opinion). I just have to get a laugh when I see all of these Microsoft defenders. I remember when only the most tech-ignorant would defend Microsoft. I guess there are a lot of guys who would say a '67 Mustang is superior to a Ferrari too. My how the world has changed.

Reply Score: 1

v No Strange Delight
by Anonymous on Mon 28th Nov 2005 02:57 UTC
RE: No Strange Delight
by Anonymous on Mon 28th Nov 2005 05:42 UTC in reply to "No Strange Delight"
Anonymous Member since:
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I agree 1000% regarding the Cell and the PS3. Do you know I attempted to pitch that idea to Be (Media Center OS, six years before Microsoft, interface designed for the home rather than the PC, distributed computing as an extension of its built-in symmetric multiprocessing)? Jean Louis Gassee refused to hear my pitch. I also attempted to recommend to Be developing Virtual Machine technology so that Windows could be offered from WITHIN the BeOS environment, thus helping Be overcome its lack of available software. Compared to operating systems, VMs are a lot easier to make. I never got to make the pitch, JLG was too arrogant to allow it. A year later, VMWare hits the market. A few years later Be is sold for chump change (11 million dollars), a few years after that VMWare is sold for 600 million.

I predicted that Sony would clean MS's clock with the PS2 because of it's early lead and being the first console with PC level graphics. Microsoft should have waited much longer to release the Xbox so that people were already used to the PS2... it's graphics would have seemed a lot better by comparison. Sony is taking that strategy now... the PS3s graphics are going to seem a LOT better a year from now compared to the 360. Sony will likely be able to sell the units for a much better price as well. We'll see.

Reply Score: 0

v PS3 Sucks
by Anonymous on Mon 28th Nov 2005 05:45 UTC
RE: PS3 Sucks
by Anonymous on Mon 28th Nov 2005 06:12 UTC in reply to "PS3 Sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
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Dude, you aren't making sense...

1. "uncorroborated posts"? How much of what you read can be proven AT ALL? This is a cop out.

2. Doesn't matter how big a lead someone has, a significantly better product will prevail. Everyone know that the original Xbox has better graphics, a better online experience, and better HD compatibility than the PS2 yet it still couldn't outsell it. The answer: MORE TITLES, BETTER GAME PLAY!

3. "SONY AIN'T READY"? Can you confirm THIS? You're attempting to pass off conjecture as fact. And I'M "cherry-picking strawmen."

4. You just decided to ignore my saturation statement. I don't know why because it's true and can be independently confirmed. As for the game slowdown, you DO realize that the PS ONE outsold Xboxen the first year right? And that's WITH the PS2 ALREADY ON THE MARKET! There will likely not be much slowdown. Sorry that bother you.

5. MS is definitely building market share. You DO realize that game sales for the PS2 will more than likely be QUADRUPLE the sales of Xbox 360 games, right? That's the advantage of having an installed based of 90+ million dollars... while MS bleeds money selling consoles, Sony is making a substantial profit selling games. Why do you think console makers are willing to take such heavy losses on console sales. The money is in the GAMES! By the way, more PS2 games are sold PER UNIT than Xbox games... in other words, every PS2 owner owns MORE GAMES than Xbox owners. Sony is winning this war on every front.

6. Speaking of cherry-picking, you didn't pay attention to the "true or not" portion of my statement. Microsoft will be battling PERCEPTION by the time the PS3 comes around. Sony is betting that the superior graphics of the PS3 will make it SEEM better than the Xbox 360. This strategy only works if the PS3s graphics are truly superior. By most accounts, they are.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Sonny
by archiesteel on Mon 28th Nov 2005 06:03 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

Why I agree that calling him "Sonny" is a bit immature, he is an anonymous poster. In my book these are fair game for abuse! :-P

Reply Score: 1

RE: actual numbers...
by archiesteel on Mon 28th Nov 2005 06:05 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

What are the actual numbers? Can you point to a link please? Thanks.

Reply Score: 1

archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

I disagree. There are innovative games out there, the problem is that more often than not they don't sell that much. There are a few bright exceptions, like Katamari Damacy, however for each of theses there are many innovative titles that were commercial flops. Beyond Good and Evil, Psychonauts both come to mind.

It's easy to blame publishers for this (BTW please make a distinction between publishers and console manufacturers), but the fact is that the big commercial games sell, even though they're not that innovative.

In any case, innovation is an overrated buzzword. Good gameplay is more important than innovation, and of course the same type of games get re-made. Guess what: the same thing happens in Movies, TV Shows and Books. It's just a sign that the medium is maturing.

That said, as a game designer I would love for US publishers to be more bold, to take more risks (like the Japanese, and to some extent Europeans). But as long as innovative titles won't be commercial success, this will continue to be difficult.

Oh, and gaming consoles with harddrives is great: no more need for a memory card, downloading extra levels, using it as a TiVo-like media center (which you know is what MS and Sony want to do...)

Reply Score: 1

RE: XBox 360 sucks
by archiesteel on Mon 28th Nov 2005 06:18 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

Hell, even with the PSP issues, they've achieved parity with Nintendo on handhelds, something NO other company has been able to do.

Actually, the Nintendo DS has outsold the PSP by a significant margin.

That said, I kind of agree with you on your general point. I don't think MS is in a very good place with the Xbox 360 right now, but one thing is certain: the competition is *good*.

Reply Score: 1

RE: No Strange Delight
by Anonymous on Mon 28th Nov 2005 06:20 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I predicted that Sony would clean MS's clock with the PS2

I'm still minded to think that X-Box 360 will be the last games console Microsoft build before getting kicked out of this market. If things go as I expect, I'm more than certain that Sony will crucify Microsoft in the domestic and business space. As you say, we'll see.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: XBox 360 sucks
by archiesteel on Mon 28th Nov 2005 06:25 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

And I guarantee you this: Sony isn't making money on their consoles, either.

How do you know? The PS3 isn't out yet. And if you meant the PS2, then you are mistaken. Sony quickly turned out a profit on each PS2 sold, unlike MS who only recently started selling them at cost.

Look, I'm platform-agnostic, I develop games for all of them. However, there's no argument that Sony is the market leader here, and Microsoft is the challenger. We'll have to wait until the PS3 comes out, but I have to agree with the other poster, it's not going to be easy for MS, and the very real Xbox 360 glitches reported (you know it's true when MS itself reports it, "damage control"-style) are not a good sign (though not a sign of failure by itself).

Reply Score: 1

RE: PS3 Sucks
by archiesteel on Mon 28th Nov 2005 06:34 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

You thought wrong. It's widely known that PS2 graphics are inferior compared to Xbox. What has kept PS2 on top, however, is that it came out first and largely owned the market well in advance of the existence of the Xbox.

True, PS2 graphics are inferior to the Xbox. However, "coming out first" isn't necessarily why the PS2 is king. After all, the Dreamcast came first...The PS2 sold well because it was the successor to the very successful PlayStation, and because it sold well both in the West and in Japan. The fact that Microsoft could never really make it in Japan really hurt the Xbox.

A large segment of the market has simply stopped buying PS2 games in anticipation of the new PS3 console. That translates into stalled revenue for Sony. Not exactly a good position to be in for a public company.

I'm sorry, but you're quite wrong. Pick up any trade paper, such as MCV, and you'll see that PS2 titles are still solid sellers, more than Xbox titles.

Following your logic, sales of Xbox titles should have stalled in anticipation of Xbox 360, but that's not yet the case. Xbox games are still selling quite a lot (not as much as PS2 games, because of Sony's market share lead, but still).

Reply Score: 1

A lot of these post are off
by Anonymous on Mon 28th Nov 2005 07:11 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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A lot of these post seem to go up in flames when people dont realize that the dreamcast came before the ps2 with pc quality graphics.

A console's success is determined by what gaming genres it can support. Mix that in with marketing, and sleek design that will attract casual players and boom.

Higher sales ---> More developer support -----More Sales----> (you get the picture)

As an original xbox consumer, I did enjoy the system. But I am very angry that the xbox360 came out when it did. The 4 year life cycle for the xbox was less then average and it looks like MS just rushed out the xbox360 because they didnt enjoy the beating they were getting with the xbox ps2 war.


In the end however, Consoles are now reduced to nothing more then PC wannabes (sans nintendo 'revolution'). I really only expect there to be 2 more console generations max. And at that point consoles will probably only be released once every twenty years, or be phased out and known simply as one of the many pc architecture types that exsist today.

Reply Score: 0

RE: A lot of these post are off
by Anonymous on Mon 28th Nov 2005 07:32 UTC in reply to "A lot of these post are off"
Anonymous Member since:
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I disagree about the Dreamcast having PC level graphics which is why I called the PS2 the FIRST console with PC-level graphics. The Dreamcast used exceptional anti-aliasing technology to improve the quality of game graphics but lacked the raw computing power found in the PS2 or Xbox. I consider the Dreamcast a "transitional" product, the bridge between 2D consoles and 3D consoles. The PS2 was the first console with true PC level 3D graphics (from a raw computing power perspective).

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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As for consoles fading away, unless PC operating systems get significantly easier to use or consoles become ridiculously difficult to use, the simplicity of consoles give them much better long-term prospects than PCs, in my opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if the PC's capabilities were divided and packaged into simpler devices. As much as we here of convergence, the tide always seem to turn eventually back to specialization. Think of Blackberrys... if you really look at them, they are just Palm Pilots with better screens and push email. Symbian sells the most "smart-phones" on the planet (by a WIDE margin) but if you pay attention, they are functionally little different than the FIRST GENERATION Palm Pilot. Simplicity is always a safe bet, that's why consoles will more than likely supplant the PC in gaming in a couple of iterations. The graphics will get to a point that the difference will be marginal at best... the simplicity of the console will give it a definite edge.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Yeah of course the simplicity of consoles will garner attention from a specific market (IE. Casual Gamers). But that same market will see less and less compelling reasons to upgrade to newer and newer consoles as time passes. Thus consoles in itself will drift away, effectively leaving only the services that the console manufacturer can provide.

At this momeny you bet casual game players are wondering "Why get a ps3 when i have a ps2" and even more consumers will wonder "Why get a ps4 when i have a ps3" As the graphical advancements between new console generations decrease, so will the consumer interest in them. This bodes true if these companies dont innovate (Nintendo is going the right direction IMO). They are going the PC route, except unlike pc's, consoles have one primary function, and thats to play games.

In terms of specialization, that remnants of that notion are either dead or dying out. Lets take a look back at consoles. Have you noticed how the xbox360 can now play music, and show pictures, and do all of these little things PC's are doing. Thats integration right there. The PC does this, and now MS is following in the PC's footsteps (hence consoles being PC wannabes).

Specialization is usually the product of demand, and demand will fall when engineers simply refine the functionality of specialized products. And in turn engineers will turn back into generalizing a product and integrating it. Its a cycle. Case in point: Ipods. Apple made a product that targets a specific niche, then they refined it but kept the functionality relitively the same. and now they are adding totally new functionality (video, integrating with phones).
Cell phones is another example. First they could only make/receive calls. Now they play games, play music, record pictures/video/sound. Pretty soon it will happen to the blackberry, and the core functionality of that product will simply expand.

What is the challenge is keeping simplicity in terms of interface design for a product, not simplicity in terms of product functionality. It has been proven that, for conveince sake and economical reasons, consumers would rather buy 1 product which performs multiple functions. That would explain why the pc (as a gaming platform) overshadows consoles in terms of #of games, #of players, and #of hours played.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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As for PCs eliminating consoles, WAY more consoles are geing sold now than in earlier iterations. Sony has almost 90 million PS2s out and projections are they will surpass that with the PS3.

As for "proven that, for conveince sake and economical reasons, consumers would rather buy 1 product which performs multiple functions", for every incident of convergence, an incident of simplification takes place. You look at cell phones as having expanded capabilities but they are really now just scaled-down PDAs. As PDAs became more cumbersome with features, their most important features were re-identified, dissected and added to a device that was a natural match for that simplicity, the mobile phone. Poor interface design will insure that complex device will continue to tend toward simplification, not vice versa. You may be right in principle but wrong in actuality.

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Anonymous Member since:
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Dreamcast was far from a 2D - 3D transitional product. Beign that the sega saturn, sony playstaion, and nintendo64 did 3D level graphics. They might have not been PC level at that moment and time, but those consoles more represent the transition. IMO you are greatly exaggerating the graphical capabilities of the dreamcast in comparison to the ps2 and even the xbox. At best I would say there would be slightly better textures and more polygons which made the difference. Especially when comparing 1st generation PS2 games to 2nd generation Dreamcast games (in which some cases the dreamcast would look better). In the end it came to minor details that many casual gamers would miss.

For example it took quite a while before ps2 could match soul calibur 2 graphically.

http://www.gamespot.com/dreamcast/action/soulcalibur/screenindex.ht...

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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"For example it took quite a while before ps2 could match soul calibur 2 graphically."

Dude, you're kidding right? The Dreamcast was nice but if what you are saying was actually correct, the Dreamcast would have been more competitive with the PS2. I remember the DC hitting the market well before the PS2 but getting smoked when it arrived because the PS2 had much better graphics. I also remember being blown away when I saw Madden for the PS2, there was NOTHING on the Dreamcast comparable. Sorry dude, but you've built the Dreamcast up in your head. It was significantly better than anything before it but it wasn't in the class of the PS2, let alone the Xbox.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Ummm no first generation ps2 games were not better than dreamcast graphically.

This is usually the case with all systems. Developers had more experience with the dreamcast and they were already in 2nd generation development compared to the ps2. The ps2 had hype and nothing more until at least the second generation. Many people agree that tekken just couldnt hold a candle to soul calibur. The playstation was the market leader, but not because it was graphically superior to the dreamcast. Thats called hype and you bought into it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_2

"The PlayStation 2 had a difficult start. Only a few million users had obtained consoles by the end of 2000 due to manufacturing delays. Developers also complained that it was difficult to develop for the system, with little in the way of reference material from Sony for its exotic architecture. The PS2 launch seemed unimpressive and gaffe-prone, compared to the well-planned launch of the Sega Dreamcast, which was making a genuine attempt to woo developers and which had better launch titles. Yet, the PS2 initially sold well solely on the basis of the strength of the PlayStation brand and its backwards compatibility, selling over 900,000 units in the first weekend in Japan. This allowed the PS2 to tap the large install base established by the PlayStation. Another major selling point over the Dreamcast was the PlayStation 2's ability to play DVDs, which gained it a presence in electronics stores which did not formerly sell video game consoles. Later, Sony gained steam with new development kits for game developers and more PlayStations for consumers."

The developers had to learn how the emotion engine worked before the graphics could surpass the dreamcast.. and that didnt occur until the second generation development series began for the system. And dreamcast was well on its way to its deathbed at that point.

This is pretty much set in stone by developers and reviewers. Sorry you bought into the hype machine =P

Reply Score: 1

Defect Rate is...
by MightyPenguin on Mon 28th Nov 2005 15:03 UTC
MightyPenguin
Member since:
2005-11-18

15% on one poll I saw

Reply Score: 1

teeeeeeeeeeest
by Anonymous on Mon 28th Nov 2005 17:28 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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tttteeeeeesssssstttttt

Reply Score: 0