Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 28th Jun 2006 19:48 UTC, submitted by brewin
Java A Sun Microsystems Inc. executive said Tuesday said the company is "months" away from releasing its trademark Java programming language under an open-source license. Simon Phipps, chief open-source officer for Sun, said the company is ruminating over two major issues: how to keep Java compatible and ensure no particular company uses market forces as muscle for its own implementation, a move that would threaten Java's "write once, run anywhere" mantra.
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GNU
by erdizz on Wed 28th Jun 2006 20:12 UTC
erdizz
Member since:
2006-06-07

Open source Java will happen when GNU Classpath + gcj becomes mature enough. Sun says it's "months" away? Good then.

Reply Score: 2

RE: GNU
by sigzero on Wed 28th Jun 2006 21:59 UTC in reply to "GNU"
sigzero Member since:
2006-01-03

No enterprise shop worth its saly is going to use CLASSPATH. Sorry, iy ain't gonna happen

Reply Score: 3

robilad Member since:
2006-01-02

As your comment shows, the wisdom of a gated community is limited. It reminds me of the funny 'no enterprise worth their salt is ever going to use ruby on rails/dynamic languages/PHP' rants in Javaland last years.

The bigger picture is that governments in interesting, lucrative places are starting to express a preference for open standards and free software, for many good reasons.

That would rule Java out for long term projects, due to its lock-in into proprietary implementations from US vendors, and Sun's deliberate failure to create open standards around the technology [1] ... if it wasn't for GNU Classpath, Kaffe, gcj, and all that.

A government thinking in long terms wouldn't want to risk having the rugs of their national IT infrastructure pulled under them because Sun tanks, or the US administration goes off on one of their give-us-your-stuff-terrarist-evildoers binges.

It's a complex world out there.

cheers,
dalibor topic

[1] I don't know if you're old enough to remember the ISO and ECMA games Sun played, so here's a paper on it: http://www.tbm.tudelft.nl/webstaf/tinekee/WhyJavaWasNotStandardised...

Reply Score: 2

I believe it when I see it
by dark child on Wed 28th Jun 2006 20:25 UTC
dark child
Member since:
2005-12-09

I am getting tired of all these promises to opensource java. Sun should either get on with it or if they don't want to opensource it, just spell it out instead of making such promises every few weeks.

Reply Score: 2

RE: I believe it when I see it
by taos on Wed 28th Jun 2006 20:57 UTC in reply to "I believe it when I see it"
taos Member since:
2005-11-16

I guess it's most likely the other way around.

Meida's, event organizers, competitors and opensource communities keep asking the same question whenever they meet high-ranking officers from Sun, "when are you going to opensource Java? when are you going to opensource Java? ... "(it's changed from "are you going to opensource Java? are you going to opensource Java ...").

So once in a while they have to answer, they have to repeat themselves using slightly different words.
Those words are picked up by the media and reported as "news", on a slow news day typically.

The "news" is then posted by more "news sites" like osnews etc.

Then comes similar posts like yours "I am getting tired ", "will see it when I believe it", "vapour-ware", "cheap marketing" ...

Actually, when Sun chose not to answer, it's reported as news:

"But while Phipps was happy to be outspoken in his presentation, he was moved to silence in at least one area. In introducing Phipps, the conference chairman and vice president of the ECM company Alfresco, Matt Asay, said that he hoped that he was "going to hear today that Sun has decided to open source Java." Phipps remained silent on the subject."
http://news.com.com/Sun+Open+source+is+about+self-interest/2100-734...

I am victimizing myself by responding to this story - a slow day for me.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: I believe it when I see it
by drdoug on Thu 29th Jun 2006 18:19 UTC in reply to "RE: I believe it when I see it"
drdoug Member since:
2006-04-30

"But while Phipps was happy to be outspoken in his presentation, he was moved to silence in at least one area. In introducing Phipps, the conference chairman and vice president of the ECM company Alfresco, Matt Asay, said that he hoped that he was "going to hear today that Sun has decided to open source Java." Phipps remained silent on the subject."
http://news.com.com/Sun+Open+source+is+about+self-interest/2100-734.....


When Simon Phipps, read this article he doubted whether the author had actually attended the conference, as the article is a load of crap, and did not represent what he said.

Reply Score: 4

RE: I believe it when I see it
by g2devi on Wed 28th Jun 2006 21:38 UTC in reply to "I believe it when I see it"
g2devi Member since:
2005-07-09

Java is pretty important to Sun, so it doesn't want to make a mistake. As the opensourcing of Netscape 4 has shown, if you don't release open source the right way, it'll take *a long* time before you get community involvement. It's not enough to just dump the code on the community. You have to provide the proper infrastructure for collaboration.

However, Sun has experience open sourcing OpenOffice and Solaris, so there is hope that they'd opensource Java (within months or years).

Reply Score: 1

RE: I believe it when I see it
by butters on Wed 28th Jun 2006 22:28 UTC in reply to "I believe it when I see it"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

Didn't you hear? They're "just months away" from opening Java. I wonder if this is the same kind of language that makes $29.95/month "just pennies per day!" In other words, do they mean 6 months... or 47 months?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: I believe it when I see it
by Duffman on Thu 29th Jun 2006 14:14 UTC in reply to "RE: I believe it when I see it"
Duffman Member since:
2005-11-23

Usually, when it comes to 47 months, we talk about years instead ...

Reply Score: 2

OSS java
by SEJeff on Wed 28th Jun 2006 20:38 UTC
SEJeff
Member since:
2005-11-05

If java was opensourced, it would likely become one of the De-facto open source languages. As it is, java is probably the biggest and the De-facto "enterprise" programming languages thanks to it's surrounding standards such as J2EE and EJB.

All sun can do is benefit from an OSS java as more people would use it and develop in it. Open sourcing java really does make sense for sun and their idea of java taking over the world.

Reply Score: 5

RE: OSS java
by binarycrusader on Wed 28th Jun 2006 20:46 UTC in reply to "OSS java"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06

All sun can do is benefit from an OSS java as more people would use it and develop in it. Open sourcing java really does make sense for sun and their idea of java taking over the world.

Everyone says this, but I see no proof of it. There is no way of knowing for certain how beneficial it would be until it happens. The majority of the world doesn't care if it something is open source, so I'm not convinced that open sourcing Java will somehow make a huge difference. I honestly think it's a lot of noise from people that just want to take advantage of Java's codebase -- with a very small percentage that want it for legitimate reasons.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: OSS java
by g2devi on Wed 28th Jun 2006 21:47 UTC in reply to "RE: OSS java"
g2devi Member since:
2005-07-09

As far as Linux, FreeBSD, and other open source operating systems, it would make a huge difference. Opensourcing Java would allow it to be shipped (and preconfigured) with your distro, with Firefox, and with OpenOffice. Java isn't available for all platforms, so opensourcing it would also help with portability on lesser known OSes and chips.

One key advantage of Mono over Java is that Mono can ship with your distro, so people develop for it. If Java could be guarenteed to be there, Java and Mono could be on equal footing.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: OSS java
by sigzero on Wed 28th Jun 2006 21:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OSS java"
sigzero Member since:
2006-01-03

Except with mono you have the Microsoft specter and the fact you will never have the whole language and you will always be playing catch up.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: OSS java
by g2devi on Wed 28th Jun 2006 22:17 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OSS java"
g2devi Member since:
2005-07-09

True, but many companies and people don't see it that way. They see the ECMA spec and the Open Invention Network (i.e. openinventionnetwork.com , founded by RedHat, Novell, IBM, etc) and think that Mono is "safe" from patent issues. Even hold-outs like RedHat has given in and included Mono in Fedora. While Free Java is easy to get, for most Pentium based Linux distros, it's still not shipped with any distro that has a "pure open source" policy. Mono doesn't have this issue. I believe Sun recognizes this disadvantage. If they decided to opensource Java, they'd clearly have the upper hand since "the official version of Java" will be open sourced and not "some .NET clone that is always playing catch up".

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: OSS java
by derekmorr on Wed 28th Jun 2006 22:07 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OSS java"
derekmorr Member since:
2005-09-25

The new Java Distro License allows Java to be bundled with distributions. You don't need to open-source Java to bundle it.

As for portability, the JRE is available for Windows, Linux, Solaris, AIX, FreeBSD, z/OS, PalmOS, i5/OS and others. It's already extremely well supported.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: OSS java
by buff on Wed 28th Jun 2006 23:15 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OSS java"
buff Member since:
2005-11-12

I don't think Java could be included in Gentoo since you would have to have the source for everything: JVM, compiler, etc. Shipping binaries wouldn't work for that distro.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: OSS java
by SEJeff on Thu 29th Jun 2006 02:41 UTC in reply to "RE: OSS java"
SEJeff Member since:
2005-11-05

If redhat bundled java in the default install of RHEL, it would do wonders for it's usage in OSS.

If all of the major Linux distributions start bundling java by default, there will be a huge increase of OSS java apps in ~6 months. Why? Because java is used so heavily in the enterprise and the specs are so mature, there are millions of java developers around the world. Additionally, it might make Linux an attractive platform for developers who would be normally on windows.

binarycrusader: Does this make sense to you?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: OSS java
by binarycrusader on Thu 29th Jun 2006 08:28 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OSS java"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06

binarycrusader: Does this make sense to you?

It's a logical argument I've heard before, but just because something is logical doesn't mean it's true. In addition, I still question whether or not it will make that much difference since "Java" in some form or another is already distributed or available for many Linux distributions. Companies that are going to use it have it available. The only ones you're going to get additional are companies that wouldn't use it because it wasn't included already.

Reply Score: 1

the real benefit
by buff on Wed 28th Jun 2006 20:58 UTC
buff
Member since:
2005-11-12

The real benefit of open sourcing Java will be an end to stories complaining about 'when will Java be free'.

Not having to download real Java binaries separately from my linux distro would also be nice.

The real reason Sun is waiting is to make certain they have all their lawyers close all the loop holes in their distribution license so that they don't lose control over Java. I doubt it will be really free as in GPL free. We will see.

Reply Score: 3

RE: the real benefit
by orestes on Wed 28th Jun 2006 21:10 UTC in reply to "the real benefit"
orestes Member since:
2005-07-06

So we trade when will it be free for various parties complaining about the details of the license?

I'm not seeing that as an improvement.

In fact, the only real advantage I see to making Java Opensource is enabling it to be ported to platforms Sun would be unlikely to support.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: the real benefit
by derekmorr on Thu 29th Jun 2006 03:55 UTC in reply to "RE: the real benefit"
derekmorr Member since:
2005-09-25

That's already happened. IBM, for instance, posted Java to AIX, z/Linux, z/OS and i5/OS. None of those environments are supported by Sun.

Reply Score: 1

I'm sorry?
by xushi on Wed 28th Jun 2006 21:17 UTC
xushi
Member since:
2005-08-29

" a move that would threaten Java's "write once, run anywhere" mantra."

I did java (socket programming) for a year on x86 machines, and tried for a month to give it a shot on mobile phones. One main thing that put me off the language and made me switch to another was the fact that i didn't see any 'write once, run anywhere' between the two platforms.

Just to get a bit more information and refresh my memory, i did a quick search on the net and found two articles, which i could use as a reference to what i'm saying above.

http://www.abiro.com/news/2006/06/java-me-still-not-write-once-run....

http://news.com.com/Write+once,+run+anywhere+not+working+for+phones...

Please prove me wrong, because to me i convinced myself that the whole language (to me or in my case) is pointless and a waste of time because the very essence of it is corrupt (again i say, in my case).

Reply Score: 5

RE: I'm sorry?
by openbsd-user on Thu 29th Jun 2006 00:00 UTC in reply to "I'm sorry?"
openbsd-user Member since:
2006-06-28

That is exactly the reason to make it opensource and maybe an openstandard.

http://news.com.com/Write+once,+run+anywhere+not+working+for+phones...
"Now Nokia, Motorola and other handset makers have built devices using their own fixes for their java MIDP (mobile information device profile)"

And these global companies treat these fixes as trade secrets, as if it gives these companies a competitive advantage.

And now for whatever reasons my perfect programs can run on 100 million phones but not on the other 1 billion phones.

How would the internet look like, if your computer browser could on communicate with 10% of the web?? It looks like a virtual trade barrier for ebusinesses.

Edited 2006-06-29 00:09

Reply Score: 3

the best closed door is an open one
by openbsd-user on Wed 28th Jun 2006 21:18 UTC
openbsd-user
Member since:
2006-06-28

Because real it-knowledge was a very scares resource and easy to protect, 20 year of market skimming-strategies were possible in an almost monopolistic market, ( maximize-profit, short-term views). This had made them lazy is some way, not very clever in marketing, in market analysis, and slow in planning, implementing and market control.

It takes these experts a very long time to figure out how to franchise and to capitalize on their java 'invention' and stay in control.

They think first on themself, with on number 1 the company and shareholders .
1. sun, the company
2. sun hardware
3. US stakeholders
4. rest of the world

It's easy to be, and stay number 1, even if you turn the list up-side down

Marketing is knowing what people will need 1, 5 and even 10 years from now.

Edited 2006-06-28 21:33

Reply Score: 1

RE: the real benefit
by cyrilleberger on Wed 28th Jun 2006 21:51 UTC
cyrilleberger
Member since:
2006-02-01

a lot of distributions includes java now. Sun has loosen the licence sometimes ago, they don't require anymore that if you distribute their JVM that you don't distribute an alternative. Even debian offers the Sun jdk in non-free.

Reply Score: 2

OSS & Free software, get it right!
by HiThere on Wed 28th Jun 2006 22:02 UTC
HiThere
Member since:
2006-05-13

Cmon people, Java has been open source for ages. We are want it to be "free" software. Not to mention the restrictions on the name "Java".

Reply Score: 3

Wes Felter Member since:
2005-11-15

No, Sun's Java VM has not met the Open Source Definition. Also, many free software advocates support the use of trademarks. I'm not sure who "we" is in your message, but it's not the whole free software commmunity.

Reply Score: 1

buff Member since:
2005-11-12

You are right it is not open source. The problem I see with Java now is that there is no guarantee you will always have access to it. Say Sun closes shop and sells Java to another company and they sit on it for awhile. All the code people have contributed is ALL owned by Sun. If they wanted to sell it off there would be nothing you could do. You gave the code to them on their terms and they can resell it if they wanted to.

Reply Score: 1

More like 18 months
by Wes Felter on Wed 28th Jun 2006 22:33 UTC
Wes Felter
Member since:
2005-11-15
Journalistic integrity
by chekr on Wed 28th Jun 2006 22:38 UTC
chekr
Member since:
2005-11-05

Thom how about some journalistic integrity, even the most cursory check would have revealed that Simon Phipps refutes the claims made in this article, Particularly your headline graft "Sun Says Open-Source Java Possible in 'Months'".

I really do wonder what it is that you offer the readers here Thom, your obviously not that clued up about the tech industry, your quite clearly a hopeless journalist. I mean what was that stuff where you took a common phrase such as "cancer" and made it a personal issue.

Thom, please, go back to whatever it is that you did before OSNews.

Reply Score: 3

v RE: Journalistic integrity
by brewin on Thu 29th Jun 2006 01:20 UTC in reply to "Journalistic integrity"
RE[2]: Journalistic integrity
by chekr on Thu 29th Jun 2006 07:41 UTC in reply to "RE: Journalistic integrity"
chekr Member since:
2005-11-05

It's quite clear Thom didn't write the article. But grafting a headline and not making clarifications isn't exactly helping the situation is it. If OSnews is going to call what it post here news it should be information about recent events or happenings. That is the definition of news. Speculation and conjecture is not news it is opinion.

Perhaps Kelly from OSOpinion would be interested in swapping domain names ;)

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Journalistic integrity
by brewin on Thu 29th Jun 2006 09:56 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Journalistic integrity"
brewin Member since:
2005-06-30

He didn't write the headline either, big guy. And whether it's rumor or not, it's still news and not opinion. And to add to that, I'm pretty sure Thom doesn't get paid to do this. So your "journalistic integrity" doesn't mean anything. If you want "jounalistic integrity," then get off the internet. If you don't like OSNews, then please don't read it.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Journalistic integrity
by chekr on Thu 29th Jun 2006 11:07 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Journalistic integrity"
chekr Member since:
2005-11-05

"whether it's rumor or not, it's still news and not opinion."

I think you should consult your dictionary, rumor is not news. Actually I will do it for you:

Rumor: Unverified information received from another; hearsay.

News: Information about recent events or happenings.

"I'm pretty sure Thom doesn't get paid to do this."

I don't know whether he gets paid either, does remunaration mean that we would get integrity? In some countries it is unlawful to spread misinformation or slander a person or organisation regardless of financial benefit. I am not saying that that these laws are even relevant to this scenario but I do feel there is something unethical about reporting or perpetuating and misrepresenting a rumor on a site that clearly identifies itself as publishing news.

"If you want "jounalistic integrity," then get off the internet"

What, so reading information off of a dead tree somehow makes it more accurate.

"If you don't like OSNews, then please don't read it."

And censor myself by reading only things that I agree with, no thanks.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: GNU
by collinm on Thu 29th Jun 2006 03:09 UTC
collinm
Member since:
2005-07-15

+1

Reply Score: 2

RE: I'm sorry?
by collinm on Thu 29th Jun 2006 03:12 UTC
collinm
Member since:
2005-07-15

it's not a sun java problem

mobile phone like nokia, lg..... don't implements completely java

Reply Score: 1

I Said It Before....
by mlauzon on Thu 29th Jun 2006 15:37 UTC
mlauzon
Member since:
2005-07-25

And, I say it again; and I think a lot of people will agree with me:

We'll believe it, when we see it...!

Reply Score: 1